Spontaneous or Responsive Desire in Marriage (What the Difference is) featuring Dr. Diane Mueller

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3:01 Doctor Diane in the Libido Lounge. What's going on? How are you doing? I'm so great, Larry, it's so great to be with you. It's great to be with you, too. I've been dying to say that ever since we've scheduled you. So very fun to say for sure. There are so many puns with this profession. That's where I want to start.

3:21 You know, before I introduce you to the crew here, how did you even get started in such a such a realm here? Oh, gosh. You know, it's it's one of these things that almost every single week I asked myself that same question just because I had such a strong Catholic religious upbringing where talking about sex was just, oh, incredibly taboo.

3:44 So to think that, you know, like with that upbringing, the things that I would be publicly talking about, writing, about speaking, about teaching, about sex and intimacy, is still a little mind boggling to me. Like, like every single week. So I'm continually honestly, like, really inspired with what got me here. Like the most. The latest thing with what continues to get me here is this summer, I've been going through quite the ordeal of something called vulva denier, which is pain of the vulva and some very interesting journey because every test is normal and I'm a functional medicine doctor.

4:24 I like thrive on finding root causes, and so far everything that I run is normal and every treatment I try is like nothing is happening. So it's been a very interesting journey because this pain has been keeping me up throughout most of the night, and sex is largely off the table for my partner and I, and it's been a very big I want to tell this story because it's been a very big like redefining for me of why I'm doing what I'm doing, because it's been so interesting in real time to watch, like, oh, this is what happens with couples, right?

4:58 It's like all these things that all of a sudden get us off our intimate track, get us off of our intimate life, and then life takes over. We have this new way of going about intimacy or go or not, you know, going about our life with lack of intimacy. And all of a sudden we become roommates. And I can see it how it happens in real time.

5:18 But then I'm actively doing these things like I'm actively talking to my partner about it. We are actively finding other ways of being sensually intimate and connecting in a sexual way that don't involve my vulva. And we are actively talking about all the things that we miss about this, and how we can't wait to get back to this.

5:37 And so we're making the conversation around this really prevalent in our lives to, you know, continually remind each other, like, we're still committed to this, we're still showing up to this. There's just a little break in this. But it's been so cool to witness just from that standpoint of like, all right, this is this is how easy this is to get off track.

5:57 So, you know, really, like, I can give you, you know, other stories like this, but that's like the main reason right now that I'm committed to this work is to help people that just go through life stuff. We're humans. Things come up and sex gets off track. So how do we prevent the roommate thing from happening and how do we how do we get, you know, get back on track if the roommate thing did happen.

6:20 So I'm real fired up today, Larry, because I'm. I'm living it in real time in my own life. Well, first of all, I just want to honor you. Thank you for sharing that. We've known each other for ten minutes, and, you know, for you to be so authentic is just really refreshing. So thank you for that. And, you know, I've been doing this work with dads for 14 years, and I've been going through I've gone through seasons. I'm going through a season right now where our first son left the nest, and this is my wife and I were just talking about last night. They were like, man, this is like, we've been parents for two decades with the kids under our own roof.

6:54 And like, this is a change. And it's it's kind of like, I wouldn't say it's chipped away at our marriage, but it's definitely it's like this hamster wheel of worry and concern and all this stuff that we have about our son and sadness that we're dealing with. Two, it's like it's impacted that a little bit. But thank you for sharing that, because one thing I've noticed about, like when we are the ones who are teaching this work that I think when we go through seasons like this, I think it makes us even better for, for our clients and for the people that we're actually speaking to because we're walking through something ourselves.

7:30 Have you noticed that? Oh, 100%, 100%? I mean, I think some of it is compassion, right? It's so much easier when we go through something to understand from a compassionate standpoint around, like, no judgment. This is human life, this is how it happens. And then it's also, I think from a standpoint of understanding, you know, it's like I said, like in my own current experience, it's so easy to just watch my thought processes because I'm attuned to them around like, okay, like, oh, my partner comes and starts touching me, but like, I'm in all this pain.

8:04 And so I feel this retraction in my body around like, oh, I don't want to lean him on. I don't want him to think that I'm available for this when, like, I clearly cannot have sex right now. And so it's very interesting to even watch and learn in real time. Like, oh yeah, these are, these are the thought processes that come in.

8:21 These are the obstacles to overcome. So I agree, it just it makes us more compassionate. It expands our knowledge base from what to teach from, you know, I think I think somatic experience and lived experiences are sure one of the best teachers. I agree with you. I just found out a year ago with somatic experiences even. I didn't know what they were.

8:42 But actually, before I introduce you, can you explain to the audience what is the somatic experience? Yeah, when I say that I'm talking about things and we're talking about somatic, we're talking about things in the body. So we're talking about the experience of of the body largely. And so a lot of when we talk about somebody experiences or somatic healing or somatic therapy, we're talking about being able to go into the body to feel things of the body and to be present with the sensations of the body, versus a lot of what happens during trauma and difficulty.

9:16 We have a tendency as humans, it's totally natural and normal to self protect, which means it feels really intense in here. Like there's a lot of like maybe anxiety or pain or challenge or whatever the experience is bringing for any human during any challenge. It can feel really intense to be inside of one's body. So we try to be in our head more.

9:37 You know, for me, my tendency is when things are difficult in the experience and my body is hard, I tend to hyper work. I tend to be a workaholic. And, you know, that's serve me in some areas. But in other areas that's been quite detrimental because that tendency to go into overdrive instead of experiencing things in real life with with our body, you know, for other people, it can be checking out, it can be, you know, binging on Netflix and can be drinking too much.

10:05 It can be, you know, whole wide variety of things. But there's this tendency of humans that's very common that says, hey, it's real and comfortable in here right now. So we have a tendency to want to escape that in a wide variety of, of ways. And so being somatic attuned in many ways is saying, oh, I am going to be present with the sensation, with the tightness, with the, you know, the the fullness, the heaviness, the uncomfortable feeling in my body so I can help my body experience it in real time, which prevent which helps us to process things and prevents things oftentimes from going into like a dormant trauma, nervous system type of state, where then we might feel better in the moment, but then something reminds us later on of an event, and then our body is still holding that neurological memory. And oftentimes we go into a micro or maybe or a more major trauma response, because our body has never processed that challenge, and it's now stored as a trauma in the body.

11:11 That makes a lot of sense. I can you know, I like I said, I just became attuned to this myself. And about a year ago and just to share back with you, you know, like, my wife and I were not. We've been married for 23 years. We got a great marriage, like a really good one. And last night we were talking.

11:32 I'm not a big drinker either, but what I've noticed, over the past, like, 3 or 4 months, like I was drinking more than normal. So, like, what's more normal? I was like, 2 or 3 beers, you know, 3 to 4 times a week. Right? And I stepped back from that and I was like, why am I drinking? And I really just had to do some self-analysis. I'm like, I'm drinking because I'm sad. Same thing with you. It's like the somatic experience, like it's uncomfortable in here. I don't want to deal with this sadness and my son leaving, worrying about him while he's in school. And then, you know, that was like things that was something that made me quote unquote, feel better, but obviously didn't make me feel better the next day.

12:09 So I actually give up alcohol for the rest of the year. And my wife and I to it's it's really weird. We're not big TV watchers, but lately we've really gotten into Netflix, into these couple, these shows that we just like love Harlan Coben, who writes incredible books, and he's got series out and we've been but we've also been doing that, I think, because we were talking about last night was like, we avoiding something.

12:32 And she's like, yeah, I think so. I was like, I think so too. I was like, I think we're avoiding like this feeling of that we don't want to deal with, like, you know, this sadness that we're feeling. And so I, I feel you 100%. But thanks for sharing that being so transparent. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that too.

12:47 And I want to commend you guys because it's so easy to get into those, you know those habits. And we just it's we're we're creatures that like humans are you know we're habit making machines. Right? It's like we drive to the gym the same way every time we drive to the same, the same way to drop our kids off of school, even though there's probably another route that's probably pretty similar in, you know, in time.

13:10 And so to actually take a step back and actually look at those, you know, those things that we're creating and asking why and being curious like it's it's not an easy thing to do, but it's a really good example of like how simple and sometimes the hardest things or the least complicated. And you know, from a complication standpoint, though, it's like how simple this can be to break a habit.

13:34 It can be as simple as asking that question or like, why am I doing this? And what am I? You know, what am I avoiding? Amen to that. It's hard to step back from that. You know, it's like, I don't really want to challenge this behavior too much and then, you know, like, oh, but then there it is. So we all have egos, you know, and and the egos serve us well. They help us live, they help us survive. But you know, when it comes to personal growth and development, that's where the ego really like needs to take a back seat. And my ego does not always take a back seat. I try to make it take a back seat, you know, as much as possible, but I think it's a continued thing for all of us when we're, you know, exploring these things is is a time for the ego to get out of the way and say like, oh yeah, like, what ways can I grow?

14:21 What ways am I not living to my full potential as a dad, as a mom, as a human, as a as a person. And and that's not it's not an easy thing to do, especially to say, hey, we can do this in a way where we're growing. But at the same time, you know, judging ourselves from a value standpoint, like evaluate ourselves but not judging ourselves from like a belittling standpoint.

14:46 And there's a real delicate, fine line that I think, you know, even those of us that have been practicing a long time, like there were all works in progress. Amen to that. Amen to that. So I think this is a good time to introduce you. Yeah. You ready for this. So everybody gets an introduction. So Doctor Diane Mueller, you're a board certified sexologist with doctorates in natural medicine and acupuncture and oriental medicine.

15:15 And your work focuses on helping couples who love each other, who are committed to each other. But somewhere along the way went from passionate lovers, the feeling more like roommates. What I really appreciate about your approach is that you don't look at intimacy as just a bedroom problem. You look at the whole picture, so you look at hormones, stress, kids, menopause, communication, emotional connection, life transitions, and all of the things that can quietly chip away at our connection.

15:43 Through my libido doc, you help couples understand why their sex drive and passion have changed, how to rebuild desire, and how to bring novelty, connection, and excitement back into long term monogamous relationships. You're also the host of the Libido Lounge, which I think I'm coming on here soon as a guest. You're best selling author and international speaker, and you've helped couples around the world create healthier and more fulfilling relationships.

16:08 The things that I want to get into today with you is why does passion seem to disappear over time? Why can one spouse want sex while the other one seemingly, seemingly wants nothing to do with it? What happens to our desire after kids stress hormones in 20 years of marriage? And maybe most importantly, how do we stop accepting the roommates who occasionally have sex and quotes and the inevitable destination of marriage and then can actually bring fire back to a relationship?

16:35 So, Doctor Diane Mueller, thanks for being here today. Yeah, so much to unpack here, Larry. Thank you for having me. I know, so one of the things that I think happens is the new relationship energy, that energy that most all of us experience in the beginning of a relationship where everything is hot and that desire is strong. And, you know, there's all of that passion, there's all of that, that allure to that other person.

17:04 Are they going to text or call or are we going to kiss? And I are we going to make love for the first time, all of those things. And that tends to last anywhere between 6 to 18 months, depending upon the couple. It's very, very common for when that starts to say dwindle, that new relationship energy for people to first of all think that this means there's something wrong.

17:28 And that's one of the first myths. I want to make sure that we are on the same page with. And everybody that's listening is, you know, what's happening there is is literally your brain on drugs and your brain on dopamine. And one of the biggest things that drives that desire is that dopamine, like I mentioned. But what drives that dopamine is this feeling of novelty and newness.

17:50 And so that unknown is is creating literally chemicals to release in the brain. And so the way dopamine works is when we just meet somebody and we don't know if they're going to text or call, and our brain starts thinking about them, because maybe it was a fun interaction, that first interaction. And we're thinking, are they going to call the in text, yada yada?

18:10 And then they do. And then we get this ping of dopamine that says, oh yeah, I like that. I want more of it. And then there's another unknown, like, are we going to have our first date? Are we going to have our first kiss? And between every first there's this, this dopamine that's subtly trickling because we don't know if they're going to do these things or if we're going to like it or how it's going to go.

18:32 And then if we get them, then we get this huge reward. So the brain is searching and is designed to search for what's new, because we categorize what's new in our brain is oftentimes things that are important and worth paying attention to, right? This is evolutionary. If we were in the hunter gatherer days and we were searching for food, we were gathering, we'd want to pay attention to all the little cues and signs that says foods this way.

19:00 That way is the bare. And so we're hyper focused on these things. And then, you know, on top of moving in together, getting married, combining our lives, combining homes and finances and whatever that arrangement looks like for anybody, we've now taken away a lot of the novelty. We know what time they're getting home. We know what time dinner is going to be.

19:23 We have our structure, we have our organization, and then we throw kids into the mix. Right? And so that's a whole nother level of obviously there's not always like complete structure with kids, but it's a different thing that is largely removing the novelty from the intimate relationship. And so it's very, very, very common for people to think that when they move in together, they're going to get more time.

19:49 And so what we do when we're not living together is we largely plan everything. We plan sex in many ways, and people don't realize they do. But we have to think about this any time that we're we are getting together before we combine our world, there's a sense of like, okay, well, we might kiss, we might make love.

20:08 This is probably going to happen. We're going to see each other at 5:00 on Friday. So maybe I'm going to put on that special outfit and kind of get prepared, get my mind right, you know, make sure that I'm kind of in the mood, whatever it takes, so that we're ready for it. And we think that when we move in together, then it's just spontaneously supposed to happen.

20:26 And so many people are like, well, I don't want to schedule sex, and I don't want to prioritize it in that way because it's just supposed to happen because that's how it used to be, without even realizing that in many ways, we actually used to schedule and prioritize it. And it's only when we move in together we think that it's not supposed to be that way.

20:43 So that is, you know, one thing that that happens that kind of gets people off of this trajectory of prioritization. And I, you know, I want to answer more of your questions here, but I do want to pause just because I just said a lot. In case you have any thoughts or comments on that before I continue, guys, I need your attention for just a second because this is one of the coolest opportunities we've ever had for the Dad Edge audience.

21:08 I was recently contacted by the Arizona Cardinals, and they want to host an official Dad Edge day at State Farm Stadium. So on Sunday, November 15th, we are taking over Arizona for an absolutely epic day of Brotherhood football and celebrating the men who are part of the Dad Edge audience. The Arizona Cardinals are taking on the Los Angeles Rams, and we have put together something really special for you guys.

21:33 When you get a ticket through the data edge.com/nfl, you're not just getting a seat at the game. You're going to get a signed copy of my book, The Pursuit of Legendary Fatherhood. You're going to get an exclusive dad edge iron sharpens iron branded shirt. And before the game, we are going to be doing a private meet and greet where I get to hang out with you, shake your hand, we get to take some pictures and spend some time together before we all head into the stadium.

22:00 Gents, this is going to be an awesome day. I mean, think about it. Hundreds of men from the Dad Edge audience all to show up to one game. We are all over the country, actually all over the world. And we're trying to become better husbands, better fathers and better men. But on November 15th, we actually all get to come together.

22:19 We get to do the meet and greet, we get to celebrate the brotherhood, and then we get to walk into State Farm Stadium together and watch the Cardinals take on the Rams. This is not something we've ever done before, and I have a feeling these tickets are not going to last long. So if you want to be a part of the first ever Dad Edge day with the Arizona Cardinals, go to the dad edge.com/nfl right now to get your tickets.

22:43 Again. That's the dad edge.com/nfl. Get your ticket. Get your sign book. Get your iron sharpens iron shirt. Come hang out with me before the game. And let's make November 15th a day that none of us will forget. And I cannot wait to see you there. No, I think this is great. I actually teach a cohort called Roommates to Soulmates.

23:05 And, you know, just diving into the data, you know, the two thirds of couples that actually stay married find themselves in either roommate syndrome, as it's been called, and, and or just complete and total disconnection. It's like two strangers living underneath the same roof. But, you know, you mentioned in there, you know, there's hormones, there's there's stress, there's kids.

23:28 And also like the euphoric feeling of something new, which I even as you said, that one of the things that came to mind is and I'm sure you've heard this, couples always want to say, I want to go back to when we were feeling like this, you know, and this is, I think, what you just described, which is like that euphoric, you know, big loads of dopamine.

23:49 Like what? It's kind of mysterious. It's kind of new. I guess my real question to you is, can we even compete with that even from like a brain function on some level. Right. On some level. And and here's how we do it. And I'm going to oversimplify this for time, but to help people start to understand this, we have to differentiate between spontaneous desire and responsive desire.

24:16 So I'm going to define what that is in a moment. But before I'm going to say that when we are in that new relationship energy, no matter what our desire type, whether it's spontaneous or responsive, most people are largely in spontaneous because there's and what I mean by spontaneous. So now I don't find it. What I mean by that is spontaneous is like, wow, I see them.

24:40 Oh wow, they are sexy. They are hot. I want them. And it's just like you look at somebody or you think about them, and then all of a sudden like, poof, like your libido is on and you're ready to go. And because of all the dopamine and because the impact on dopamine on the brain very, very commonly and more commonly than not, both members of the party of the relationship work in that largely spontaneous desire earlier in the relationship.

25:06 But once we get past that 6 to 18 months, then one of the couples, sometimes both of the partner, but one of the partners, sometimes both move into commonly more. The response of desire and response of desire is very, very different. Now. More commonly responsive desire is from is from a female, is from the woman, and the spontaneous is the male.

25:30 But it's not always true. This can look either way. So the response of desire, that partner needs a lot of warm up. They're going to need to oftentimes have anywhere between 15 minutes and an hour to let go of the stress of the day, to take a bath, to actually feel into their body. We talked about the somatic experience, to feel into the sensations of their body.

25:55 They're oftentimes going to need more of like a true foreplay and not foreplay, meaning like, you know, we kiss, we rub each other's parts for a few minutes, and then we go boom into the big P and V penis and vagina acts. But what I mean by foreplay is like, wow, we're going to do some sensual massage, and we're going to spend some time touching without necessarily any expectation.

26:17 All of those things are wrapped up in the response of desire. So the person with responsive desire is oftentimes not going to feel horny. They're not going to have that desire until many times 15, 20, 30 minutes into an actual act. And this is why sometimes if people do decide to have sex, even though maybe they're not in the mood, sometimes the person with the responsive desire in the middle of playing will say something like, actually, this feels really good.

26:45 Why don't we do this more often? And that's because they're waiting like we because it works so spontaneously for both couples. And that's because of that new relationship energy. We carry that over as like the relationship truth, without realizing that the way our bodies approach desire is often different. So that's one of the things to start understanding is are you a spontaneous desire person?

27:10 Are you a responsive desire person? And then in order to get closer to that new relationship energy, that's we can start to approach it differently and help that responsive desire person lean into their desire more by helping them get warmed up. And then the other big thing with getting closer to that on that new relationship energy is novelty.

27:32 Because if we go back to what is happening at the beginning and like I described, everything was novel. Is this going to happen? What is this going to be like? So one of the things I give to people, and I have a free version of this on my website, have hot sex. Com so if people go down on to have sex, they'll find my yes no maybe checklist.

27:50 And it's just a way to explore with a partner to say, okay, like let's just be honest, let's be transparent, let's have a date night and let's go through these things and say what things like, have we never experimented in our intimate life with that are actually interesting, that are actually on the table for yeses for both of us?

28:09 Because novelty and not just doing something new in the bedroom, but thinking about it, you know, all that, that part of that new relationship energy where it's like, how is this going to go? And you're thinking about it and maybe planning for it a little bit. If we can use we can use novelty in the concept of what's changing chemically in the brain to get closer to it.

28:31 Are we ever going to get 100% there? You know, it's you know, it's it's something that I think is achievable for some people. A lot of people don't get back, you know, 100% there. But we can get closer. And when you combine like that level of getting closer and still have that spark, plus all the structure, all the foundation, all that you get to share with raising a family and all that.

28:55 I really think we can get so much better than that new relationship energy, because we get to tap into a level of it, but our lives are so full because of all of these other components as well. So that repeat that website one more time, have hot sex. Com. Okay, I don't even know why I forgot that, but give me some examples that if someone went to that, what kind of ideas would they get? It's anything. It's anything from okay, playing with a sex toy to having sex in public to having sex, you know, in the closet, right?

29:31 Some of it is intimately just like, like conversation. Like, what do you want to talk about on date night? Do you would you ever be interested in role playing? So there's a wide variety of stuff on there, some that some of it is emotional, like, tell me about your past. Like, would you be comfortable talking about your past favorite fantasy that you've ever, you know, explored or want it to explore?

29:54 So there's a wide variety of things from a more physical like physical sexual standpoint, but also from like a conversational and like emotional relating standpoint as well. And the idea with this, like when we go into this and, and the worksheets walk you through this of how to have the conversation, because I think that's one of the most important things there are.

30:14 You can find other worksheets out there, but none of them or none of them that I've seen are going really into the house. And a lot of them just focus on like the what meaning like the questions to ask. But we also remember that when it comes to intimate lives, in our intimate lives, we have a tendency as human.

30:32 We mentioned at the beginning of the show, we have a tendency as humans to ego protects, right? And that basically means that when we're talking about sex, there's a tendency that all of us have of not wanting to like, do it wrong or let her lover down or be a bad lover. So when we're listening and we're having these conversations, it can be very easy to one either judge, you know, our partner because it's like, wow, that sounds weird.

31:00 I didn't know you were into that, right? That could be one potential problematic thing that could get projected or two. I oh wow, they think I'm a bad lover. They think I'm doing it wrong. In the moment we feel like that, then we tend to shut down because we're ego protecting. We tend to shut down sharing. And so we really want to have a conversation ahead of time that first of all is saying like, hey, if there's anything that I say yes to that you find to be maybe strange, maybe weird, maybe surprising, maybe just a big heck no for you if there's anything like that.

31:34 Here's how I want you to respond to me so that if our partner is, like, surprised by something we say now, we set them up for success by telling them what we need to hear that still protects their no and their boundary, but but is approaching us in a way where it's like we feel still very confident to continue to share without shutting something down or without shutting down, since we maybe were a little vulnerable.

32:00 So we want to be very, very careful about shaming. We also want to be very careful about like pressuring somebody. So if something is a hard no, you know, we can be curious about it and, you know, ask questions around just like, tell me why that's a no for you. I am not pressuring you. I respect your no.

32:15 I just want to learn more about you. We can come at it from that approach, but we want to be very careful if something somebody ever has a hard know to not pressure somebody into doing something. Because again, that can be something that can oftentimes shut people down from, you know, even having the conversation, you know, again, so so that approach really matters with the delivery.

32:38 One thing I've gotten, I think, from other podcast guests like yourself, is that communication around this is key, you know, so like you have to be able to talk about it in order to be able to, I think, functionally be better with it. But, let's actually take a step back. You're talking a lot about how we can explore nuances and communicate, but like, why is it so difficult?

33:01 Do you think why is why is sex such a triggering topic for couples to talk about? I mean, it's it's interesting. Like when we look at research on therapy and on conflict, we see that in any conflict between a couple, there's three threats that exists the threat to one partner, the threat to another partner, and the threat to kind of like that shared we space.

33:24 And what studies have show is that in the average conversation in the average conflict, those three threats are pretty equal. Meaning like, oh, everybody is about it. It's about a 33% risk to one partner, the other partner and to the relationship. But what studies have shown is that when I if I'm going to bring up a sexy conversation, I want to bring up something about sex.

33:48 There is going to be one person that has the biggest threat out of the three, and that's me. So my psyche and what I mean by that is like my psyche interprets this as a higher threat than other types of conflict. And, you know, I think and this is just theorizing now, but I think it would make sense to me that the reason we do this is because we are, you know, we are animals, right?

34:11 There is this tendency, there's this drive that we have to survive. It's survival of the species. So if there's anything that kind of threatens us subconsciously with our fundamental, ability to procreate, to, you know, survive, to pass down our seed. And again, this is all subconscious, but it makes sense to me to that. That would be one reason why we've seen that there's a bigger feeling of threat to the individual when we have this type of conversation.

34:42 So anytime we're under threat, even, again, even if it's subconscious, anytime we're under threat, we start to look for signs that we're not safe. So when we interpret our partners words, oftentimes when we're looking, we change the lens for what we're we're looking at, and we change the lens through what we're hearing the words and the the lens becomes, is this?

35:07 Am I safe? You know, are they basically saying this is back to like, am I a bad lover? Do they think I'm performing poorly? Are they not satisfied? And we start to hear everything, oftentimes through that filter instead of actually hearing what is being said. So one of the activities I often start people with in my courses is an activity where we start to talk about sex, oftentimes for the first time, but the only thing we talk about for anywhere between the first week and the first month is everything that's going right.

35:41 And if you haven't had sex for years, then you either go back to what you remember about sex, or you use other forms of intimacy like, you know, holding hands, playing footsie under the table. You know, that long kiss or hug in the morning. And we start to focus on all the different areas of touch that our partners doing really well.

36:01 And oftentimes, you know, there are things that we don't like much of the time when we focus on the good, our partner starts doing more of the good and the things that we don't like many times even fall away. You don't even have to bring them up. But fundamentally, when we start to learn and we are nervous, system starts to hear O like my partner really thinks I'm an amazing partner, an amazing lover and all these things are the brain starts to associate talking about sex as being something that is safe.

36:35 And when we start to feel like anything in life, when we start to feel safe in a conversation with our partner, you know, or with a person event of any type of matter, what we're talking about, when we start to feel safe, our guard, you know, comes down and we again, we are able to approach a conversation less from a place of am I save, am I enter attack, and more from a place of curiosity about learning from that other person.

36:59 So oftentimes it's a really good place to start to help the nervous system, to kind of rewire around this topic. I've never heard it said quite like that. As far as like the one, you know, the the me, the you and the we. And I mean, this is probably also why finances is a triggering topic, because it's probably probably the same, I'm guessing.

37:24 Right. Something like that. Yeah. It's safety. Right. You know, I think a lot of the big conversations and relationships that come up over and over again do have an element around, you know, feeling safe and and sometimes, you know, I hesitate to use that word oftentimes because I find that not everybody relates to that word, like just because the and that's what I want to, you know, really distill for people is when I'm talking about safety here, I'm talking about like deep subconscious nervous system safety.

37:55 You might not, in your conversation with your partner around finances, have a thought that says, wow, I'm feeling real unsafe right here. Like so. So I really encourage people don't get hung up on the term because it's not necessarily about you consciously feeling that way. You might not identify with that language, but it is about the nervous system feeling like, oh, there's something that feels like a little bit of a threat here.

38:18 Like they're spending money, you know, poorly or they're spending they're not spending enough money and life enough. Like, okay, so my, my ability to enjoy life and have fun is under threat, right? So you might not use those exact terms, but it's about that nervous system feeling that it has to be on higher alert around this topic.

38:40 And if the nervous system is around higher alert around a topic that is the nervous system on some level, not being safe. You know, I'm saying in air quotes, which changes again, that filter through which we we hear and we process. And we oftentimes in many cases don't have that capacity to understand, because why am I going to ask questions about something if I'm already feeling like, gosh, I'm already under threat for this thing?

39:08 It's hard to be curious in that scenario. The term that's coming up for me when you say unsafe, is this more somatic experience. Like if we're triggered, we're probably going to it's not that we feel like the person is going to attack us, right. But like there's like this sort of visceral reaction that we probably have during a conversation.

39:27 Is that pretty accurate? Exactly. Yeah. You got it. Yeah, yeah. The the the body doesn't lie. You know, there's a great book out there and I'm like totally blinking on the, author right now. You might know this called The Body Keep score. Yeah. And it's basically this, you know, this concept of the body holds these memories in it.

39:46 So if you're finding yourself in these conversations around anything, you know, in some Syria, anything else, and you're finding yourself like constrict or feel this tension, your chest or like maybe holding your breath or any of those things, those are really good internal cues. Those are really good body cues to let you know, like, okay, well, maybe it's not safety, maybe it's not like that word that you're going to use.

40:10 But there's an element of your your nervous system subconsciously feeling that. So we can use our body as a way of understanding if that's what our nervous system is experiencing or not. Got it. Well, I know I only got you for a few more minutes, so, I just want to give you an opportunity to maybe address, just putting a bow on this.

40:30 And, you know, we've given some great information, but what what would be instead of giving men like, you know, here's the ten next things you can do. What? What's the right next thing? Yeah. I mean, the right next thing I believe is starting to talk about it. Right. Starting to have those conversations. And really, I mean, some, some ways, like if this feels awkward and it does for many couples, first of all, you're not alone.

40:57 There is an element of just ripping the band aid off and, you know, and ripping that Band-Aid off. And I would encourage people to, you know, give your partner maybe a little bit of warning of like, hey, I listen to this, you know, this great podcast. And we were taught they were talking about intimacy. And I really want to try this, you know, this exercise of just, you know, talking more about all the things that I love about the way that you touch me.

41:22 Right. And again, this doesn't have to be sexual. This can be that hug. This can be that kiss. It can be all these things. And, you know, oftentimes I think we get into this challenge when we are so busy and we've maybe told our partner they're beautiful and we love them and all these great things about them so many times that it just feels like, like we should have this on autopilot.

41:43 And I know it's a common belief, but, you know, it's like it's like our health, right? It's like, well, you can become really healthy, but if you put your health on autopilot and quit choosing good food and quit getting exercise, it's the same analogy, right? It's like we really there are certain things that just can't be on autopilot.

42:01 So I think beginning to shift some of the, feelings around that, some of the, the thought processes around that and beginning to just start to make small steps and bringing conversation around it, which, like I said, like initially is just focusing on what's going really well so that you begin to, to make it safe. And that's a one of my favorite first steps for people.

42:25 Then, of course, there's lots of more things that you can do, and you can find a ton of my free content on Have Hot Sex and lots of ways to work with me and my Hot Monogamy society and so many other things. I love that you take that approach because it's so it's so difficult for us to look for what's wrong, wrong, broken and missing, you know?

42:45 And then we focus on the problems. And that's those those are conversations we need to have. But it doesn't have to be all the conversations that we have. Like, I love talking about like, hey, where are we? Strong. Like where are things actually going? Right? So we can actually double down on those things. That's the way I coach my clients as well.

43:01 It's it's just a it's just such, I think, a refreshing way of like, you know, yes, you've got some problems. Well, let's look at the things you're doing. Well so we don't forget those either. So I love that. Well, any other place for them to find you like. So, for instance, if people want to follow you on Instagram or social media was the best places for that.

43:17 Yeah. So my libido doc is the handle you can find at any social media platform. You can look up my two books some. Part three is coming soon. They're both called Want to Want It part one and part two. You can find those on Amazon and any major platform. You can also go to. Want to sit com but you know it's a lot of yours.

43:36 So honestly if you just go to have sex.com, it's going to show a ton of products with discounts plus a ton of free stuff. You'll find my book there and, you know, social channels and all those things. So that's really the easiest place to just go. We'll make it even easier. How about that. So guys can just go to the dad edge.com/1547.

43:56 We'll have all that stuff in there for you guys not to worry. So like I said the dad edge.com/1547. Make sure you check out our October promo two I'm giving away my brand new e-book as well which is the Marriage Drift. Stop chasing and start leading. Become the man that your marriage responds to. That's a free giveaway. I'm not going to play public with that until January, so make sure you guys check out everything we put in the show notes.

44:20 So Doctor Diane, this was awesome. Thank you so much. And thanks for joining us from the The Libido Lounge. Thank you. Thank you Larry. Thank you everybody. It's been a pleasure.