Willpower Alone Will Never Fix a P*rn Problem (Here's Why) featuring Steven Wolt

0:02 Welcome to the Dad Edge podcast. The Dad Edge movement creates leaders of men. Leaders of families and leaders of communities. We will not only impact this generation of fathers, but the next generation as well. The kids we are raising will have better chances and odds stacked in their favor because of the amazing example that their fathers emulated for them.

0:24 We are here to change the world. We are here to change relationships. We are here to positively disrupt this generation of fathers. So no man goes to their grave with regret. We disrupt the drift of busyness and replace it with razor focused intention, passion, purpose and direction. We are the dad edge and we're here to change the game.

1:02 Steve. Walt. Welcome to dad edge, man. It's great to be here. Thank you for having me, Larry. It's great to have you, man. Truth be told. Actually, you want to hear something really funny? So I've talked about pornography. I mean, for the past 11 years, I've been podcasting, talked about pornography. Very open on this show. And it's funny, I've had I have I've, I've actually have had two former adult film stars on the podcast.

1:34 Candace, I can't remember her last name. And then Joshua Broom. So I've had a male and a female, and then I've had other other folks like yourself who who helped men in recovery. But it's so funny, man. When I, when I release shows like this, the downloads are always really big. But the social engagement is always at an all time low.

1:56 People see it because I see how many people see it. Yeah, but the likes and the comments are sparse because it's almost like I don't want someone to see me like that. I don't want someone to see me. Well, you know, it's interesting. I'll post something on LinkedIn and I'll get a text. Steve, I loved your post from a friend of mine.

2:17 Right. And where they wouldn't comment on LinkedIn because, like, well, how do you know Steve? Do you have a problem with porn? You know, man, before I introduce you to the, the community here, the audience I shared with you something really, really personal. And I think every man has an origin story as it relates to pornography. But my wife knows this, like, she knows all about it. But, you know, I wasn't someone that struggled with alcohol or drugs really, growing up.

2:43 I did drink a little bit in college, just like everybody else, but I never really got into it. Hasn't been too much part of my adult life. But I, I did struggle with food and I did struggle with porn. And I had a relative that I trusted looked up to him tremendously. I'll never forget my mom was going out on a date because she was single at the time.

3:03 I was nine years old and we got a Domino's Pizza, and I was spending the night at his house, and he thought it'd be hilarious to pop in a VHS porno tape. And the first thing that I ever was exposed to, I still remember vividly to this day that was, you know, 42 years ago, but it was a woman giving oral sex to a man, and I didn't even know what the heck oral sex was.

3:23 I didn't even know what sex was yet. And I was completely like, shell shocked. I'm like, what? What in the world am I watching here, man? And that, that actually just sent me on a path of, I would say, extreme curiosity about what this was all about. And but that's where mine started, man. It was really crazy. I mean, I, I think about like, I would never do that to my kids.

3:51 I would never do that to any, any kid. I mean, like, I was sitting here thinking like this relative, I'm like, what was this dude thinking? I don't think he was very sober when he did it though, either. Just. Yeah. And maybe a little clueless as to how that might actually affect you. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's crazy, but I want to I mean, this this shows all about you.

4:09 So I want to I want to introduce you to the crew here. You've got you've got an incredible bio here, man. And I'm excited to introduce you. So you've spent decades living a story that I think a lot of men can probably relate to and probably realize you're a husband, you're a father, you're an entrepreneur. And from the outside, for a lot of years, life looked pretty successful, looked pretty normal.

4:33 But behind the scenes, you were fighting a private war with pornography and sexual addiction. I think so many men are quietly in that camp. And like so many of us, you got incredibly good at compartmentalizing that life. You could show up as a dad, you could show up as a husband, you could show up as a provider and a professional while carrying something privately that was slowly taking a toll on you and the people that you loved most.

4:59 But eventually, here's the good news and this is why we're talking today. You eventually find your way out of that. But instead of bearing that that chapter of your life, you decided to use it and use it for the good. Which man? If there's no other topic in the planet to talk about that I think is more personal triggering, and there's so much shame in it.

5:17 It's it's what you do. So I appreciate and admire you tremendously today. You're the founder of Valor Recovery, where you help men fight the exact battle that you fought yourself. And what I really appreciate about your approach is it doesn't come from just theory. It actually comes from also your personal experience. The men doing this work understands secrecy.

5:38 We understand shame. The promises of I'm done. I know I've been there myself, and the frustration with realizing that willpower. I'm going to say that twice. Willpower alone isn't going to get the job done. You recently shared your story publicly with Theo Vaughn, someone who has known you personally through recovery for years and has described you as a mentor and as a guide and even a hero in Theo's life.

6:07 That conversation clearly struck a nerve because thousands of men reached out after that looking for help. So today I want to go underneath all of that. I want to talk about how a good husband and father can live a double life for decades. How? Why will power fails. I really want to hit that one because I think most men have the best of intentions, but we fail with our own willpower.

6:28 What this does to our intimacy and our trust in our marriage. How a man actually gets free. And maybe most importantly for dads listening today how we break the cycle, I'm going to say that again how we break the cycle so our sons do not inherit it. I do this, this conversation is so important and meaningful to me.

6:49 I've got four boys and I'm excited to have this conversation. So thank you for your bravery, man. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to this conversation as well. Me too. So, you know, I shared with you my origin story of how this started. I just curious, like, what was your start with this?

7:08 Yeah, I you know, I remember, in the late 1990s, I was living in New York City, working in financial services, you know, from the outside, killing it in life. Right. I remember moving into my first beautiful apartment in New York City, which is like a thing you do, right? You come out of college, you're broke, you live in a walk up with four other guys.

7:33 And I finally kind of got my first beautiful apartment. It's on a 32nd floor of a skyscraper, and within a week of moving into that apartment, I got the internet for the first time, the World Wide Web, as we used to call it back then. And I bet you had an address, didn't you? Of course. And dial up. Getting porn on dial up is, by the way. And so, really, for the first time in my life, having real access to pornography. And.

8:09 When I watched porn, I lit me up like a Christmas tree. Yeah. And so, you know, that fog of depression that I kind of had most of my life lifted when I watched porn, that insight that at times was kind of crippling in my life. Oh, vanished, at least temporarily. And maybe most importantly, that profound, aching sense of loneliness.

8:34 But I've kind of suffered with my life. Went away when I watch porn. And so I watched porn. To really numb uncomfortable feelings. And it really worked. It really worked, you know, until it didn't. Yeah. And so, you know, in my own life, you know, I started noticing things change, right? The frequency in which I was watching porn, the length of time I was watching porn started to increase.

9:07 I started taking more risk. And where I'd watched that. Boy, this is long before mobile phones, but I'd watch it in my office on my work computer, which is kind of insane. And, you know, I started gravitating towards watching different types of porn. I mean, honestly, stuff I didn't even know existed. You know, I kind of gravitated towards watching fetish porn.

9:33 I started gravitating towards watching porn outside of my sexual orientation. This is over time, not knowing what I was doing, why I was doing it, why it was so titillating and I had so much shame over what I was doing. You know, and there was no, like, dull online and research this stuff the way there is today, which would clearly explain to you that what you're experiencing is a progression which is quite common when men abuse pornography.

10:04 And so, you know, it started to really take a toll on me. I can't tell you how many times I told myself I was going to quit. I can't tell you how many times I'd wake up the next morning and get on my hands and knees and beg God and and tell God that I'm done with this to help me. And I had this incredible resolve, and it'd be a few days later and I'd be back at it. And so a real sense of powerlessness, I had experienced and, you know, even as this progressed, I was in a relationship with an incredible woman at this time. And it was so unfortunate because what happened in that relationship was really over time.

10:49 There was this desensitization that affected. I started losing some attraction towards her. There was less kissing, touching, holding or intimacy in this relationship as I almost turned her into an object. Or tried to recreate the scenes I'd seen in movies. And towards the end of that relationship, I had all types of sexual dysfunction because of all the permanent masturbation I was engaged in.

11:19 I couldn't get him into an erection during sex often. I couldn't orgasm during sex unless I was thinking about porn. And, so my pornography abuse robbed me of my manhood. And in many ways, my girlfriend at that time just experienced this as a as a betrayal because she didn't understand why I was less interested in her.

11:50 What did I do to deserve this? And she didn't really know actually what was going on, but she could totally experience the disconnection that was happening in that relationship as a result of the abuse of pornography, which I totally kept secret from her. I didn't have any ability or skill set to actually talk about this. And, you know, pornography abuse, if left untreated, is progressive and its consequences getting more severe over time.

12:18 And my porn use and abuse act as a gateway drug that led me to strip clubs, led me to erotic massages, led me to escorts and prostitution and some really, really dark places, including cocaine. And, I bottomed out really, really badly in my life in 2008. Emotionally, spiritually, financially, career wise. And, hit a rock bottom that I don't wish on anyone.

12:51 So tell me about that. What happened in 2008? Yeah. And so I had gotten fired from my career. You know, I was in and out of residential treatment centers to treat a drug addiction and a sex addiction. Really struggling, coming, going away to treatment and coming back into the workplace and had no ability to really maintain any type of recovery.

13:15 The drug use and abuse got really progressive as well. Up an emergency rooms with drug overdoses. I was engaging in sexual behaviors that just were so dark and painful and not in alignment with any type of values that I actually had. And, you know, at the end of the day, I just couldn't even make eye contact with the man in the mirror.

13:36 I was lost. I was broken and just hanging on for dear life to just stay alive. So if I'm doing the math, I mean, you were right around, like, what, 30, 33 years old? 34. Yeah. Yeah. Early 30s? Yeah. So this. So this whole thing in the 90s, it really started for you when you were, I guess what, like just a teenager in your early 20s?

14:09 Yeah, I would say, you know, obviously the writing was on the wall that perhaps I had some, emotional challenges in my even in my teenage years, I would, you know, I struggled about a little bit emotionally with anxiety and depression. I struggled kind of feeling comfortable in my own skin. You know, I turned to sports and education.

14:32 I was a really high performer, didn't drink, didn't do drugs, really in high school. And, you know, but things kind of unraveled kind of in my mid 20s. You know, I had gone to left college, went to work in the city, figuring that my career in money would kind of address this internal emotional pain I was in.

15:01 And that worked for a little while. But, wasn't a long term solution, obviously. Oh, man, I can't was was there is your is your dad still with us today? He does. Yeah. He's in his late 80s. Okay. Well, did you grow up with siblings? I did two brothers and a sister. Okay, so you were one of four as well.

15:25 Where are you at? Like, as far as the order of the birth. Middle. I have an older brother. I have a younger brother and a younger sister. Okay. And you mentioned that you were a high performer, so I guess grades were pretty good. Excellent. Okay. And then you were. You were an athlete, too. What? What did you fall?

15:44 Basketball. Baseball and the trifecta took a lot of pride in playing sports and, like being part of team sports. That was a big part of my life growing up. Wait. Were you feeling. These elements of anxiety, depression. Not comfortable in your own skin when you were performing well in school and in athletics as well? Or did this come just a little later?

16:09 No, I would say it's it's it was with me throughout my childhood. It started to progress over time. You know, in hindsight, there's you know, what it was was depression. And but that time, this was a long time ago anyway. And I remember there being language out there to even talk about this or discuss what was I was experiencing.

16:38 And so I think that's what it was. Looking back in hindsight. I was dealing with a fair amount of depression. What do you think it came from? And the reason I want to get deep on this is because I remember guys like that in high school, like I was, I was actually a fat kid who wasn't athletic until probably my junior year.

16:58 But I used to really look at a lot of those guys operating like, oh, they're they have a varsity letter in all three sports. They have good grades, like they have the girls, they have this, they have that. And I, you know, going back to even, you know, your introduction from the outside looking in everything on paper probably look like success.

17:15 But what what was what do you think was causing that or do you think it was just simply like, you know, a brain thing? Or maybe your your brain just didn't make enough serotonin? Think that's that's probably it. In hindsight, that's probably it. And I just never felt comfortable in my own skin, even with all those successes. All those acts made no difference.

17:36 I still felt like an outsider looking in on life. And I mean, that's no good. Yeah, I was just and I carried that to a lot of my adult life. I'm imagining that the men that come to your table for help. They're probably a variety, right? But at the same time, I'm so curious, like, how many men just maybe give me a percentage, like of 100% of men that come to my table, you know, 70% fit.

18:06 This is. Do you find that a lot of men on paper, like, have a, you know, they have a marriage, they have kids, they have money, they have success, they have accolades and titles and all these things that make them look like they're successful. But underneath all that, like, is. I'm just so curious, how many, how many men would you, per se, if you were to estimate to come to your table with, with a, with basically a resume just like yours a lot.

18:33 And so, you know, we like to say from Park Avenue to the park bench this stuff doesn't discriminate. And so, you know, one might have these notions on what someone who's a porn addict or an addict in general kind of what is that conduit up for you in your mind? Right. And so, you know, you have clients that are CEOs of fortune 100 companies that run big law firms, entrepreneur, business owners, highly, highly successful people.

19:02 There's and nurses and you know so it it it is you know that's not a driver of you know someone is successful. Therefore they wouldn't be vulnerable to these dynamics. I'll tell you what's really interesting. And you talk about the, the similarities of the men that come to us, you know, whether it's porn addiction, sex addiction, sexual compulsive, whatever label you're throwing at this, it is often referred to as an intimacy disorder, which means that this is about so much more than a sexual behavior.

19:40 This is about a pattern of men avoiding real emotional connection. Men begin to prefer the safety of porn versus the unpredictability of real relationships. So recovery, in its essence, has very little to do with you not watching porn. Recovery is you learning how to experience intimacy, learning how to practice vulnerability, taking emotional risk so that you can form deeper, more meaningful connection.

20:13 Now, oftentimes the opposite of addiction is not recovery, it's connection. And what I say, the similarities, the through line with all the guys that come to us, there are parts of our personalities that make it difficult to experience deep emotional connection with others. I've never been able to ask this question because to be honest, I don't. Until you just said it, I didn't know that there was differences.

20:40 So what is the difference between a pornography addiction, a sex addiction? And you mentioned a third one there too. Sexual compulsive. Yeah. They're all just labels. And so I don't think there's much of a difference in any of that. I think labels can actually be hurtful. Right. We're so much in the business of like reducing the barriers that prevent meant by talking about these issues and getting help for them.

21:08 Right. And so this called sex addict. Porn addict I mean that's a harsh label that can bring up a lot for someone continuing to suffer in silence and shame. And so much of the work that I've done personally is just shifting that language. Right. And really getting a guide to a place like, dude, put all that aside for a second.

21:30 Is your porn use bringing you closer to or further away from the man you want to be? And if you don't like the answer to that question, like, what are you willing to do about it? Yeah, see how much softer that was to get guys to kind of begin to just talk about these issues and kind of, get out of hiding and silence and darkness.

21:55 But let's actually go there. I'm so glad. So that so the the shame. I have a I have a client of mine. He's been a client for five years. He's he's been in our groups for five years and very successful. I'll keep a lot of the details out. Very successful entrepreneur and found himself in the same situation you are and now runs a recovery platform similar to yours.

22:19 Not nearly as big. He just sort of he's got his own businesses, but then he just helps men's or sort of went off on this. But but he he talks about he has said so many different things about community and connection that one of the things I've heard him say over and over again is shame dies in safe conversations and community.

22:39 And so I really want to talk. I want to talk about shame, and I want to talk about willpower. So, you know, let's take the average guy. I've been in this situation, I'm raising my hand. Yep yep, yep. You know, when it comes to I'm not going to watch it. I watch it in the past. And then suddenly I feel absolutely horrible.

22:58 Like I can really relate to that story of you. Like, I just need to ask, God forgive us. I'll never do it again. And then like three days later, you know, but but let's let's first talk about shame. What is what is the darkness and the power that shame has over us when we fall down like this? Yeah. I mean, shame feeds a belief system that I'm flawed. And when I see the world through the lens of that shame, it affects every area of my life. And so, so many men who abuse pornography for a host of reasons are full of massive amounts of shame. So the recovery journey, as much as it is about stopping this behavior, it's this journey to transcending the shame that's keeping your life small.

24:01 Really important because, you know, you start connecting the dots. A guy gets six months, nine months, a year away from porn, a compulsive sexual behaviors. You see this all the time. Like incredible stuff starts happening in their lives. They get a big raise. They get a big promotion. They launch a business, they go back to grad school. That that woman that they would normally never approach.

24:23 They walk over, introduce themselves. They're engaged a year later. Like, what does any of that have to do with you not watching pornography? I mean, the answer is everything, because what you are doing is you're transcending the shame that, once again, is keeping your life small. And so shame is corrosive. You know, it's one thing, you know, guilt.

24:48 I did something wrong. Shame I am wrong. I feel that I've dealt with toxic shame my entire life. So if I were to unpack that a little more, are you saying that shame will impact or maybe even become part of our identity? Absolutely. Okay. Absolutely. And it's, you know, it's it's impossible to know just how much that shame has permeated other areas of your life. Until you get real time and distance away from the behaviors that are driving the shame.

25:34 Can you ask a good guy like, right now, know how is porn affecting your life? And he's a he's just now beginning that journey, right? He might say, identify a few consequences, right? My my wife has experiences this betrayal trauma. I'm spending money now on campsites or OnlyFans. It's unmanageable. You'll get that kind of kind of answer.

25:57 The way that man answers that question six months later is totally different. It's fascinating what that person might say six months from now. You know, Steve, the porn abuse totally was affecting my confidence. And that confidence was affecting my ability to show up in the workplace, put boundaries in place with colleagues. You know, all of a sudden, Steve, that porn use and abuse, do was so distracting me and being present, being a father, I found myself constantly irritable and angry every time my kid did something.

26:32 And then all of a sudden, like, you're, you know, you're you're in a very, very different place emotionally in recovery from porn abuse. You get to really be able to connect the dots on just how much shame and how porn abuse has affected almost every area of your life now. Porn abuse, not porn use. There's a very important distinction between the two.

26:59 And let's talk about that. What are the differences? Yeah, yeah, because I'm not talking about the man who's casually watching pornography. I'm talking about the man who's abusing pornography. Right? I'm talking about the man who is using pornography as a way to regulate their emotions. I'm talking about the man who has using porn or sexualized social media or even doom scrolling as kind of this learned shortcut to avoid any type of discomfort.

27:28 Now, you talked about willpower, and there's just a really important thing that that oftentimes is not talked about or discussed on why this is so hard for guys to deal with. Number one, right? I'm in long term recovery from cocaine addiction. Can you imagine me walking around with a pocket full of blow everywhere I went and not doing it anytime I felt anxious, uncomfortable, or irritable?

27:58 Well, what do you think it is when your drug of choice is right here? Right? So the ease and accessibility of pornography and sexualized social media, right? You can scroll on Instagram a host of sexual imagery that can have the same effect of the brain as watching pornography. And so the ease and accessibility of all of this make it so difficult to address.

28:21 And so when guys are using that phone as their primary regulation tool, when you stop watching porn, you're not just stopping a bad habit. You're literally throwing away your primary regulation tool. So when you stop watching porn, your nervous system can go haywire. Irritability, anxiousness, flat mood and cravings. And these cravings can feel prime. They're literally a function of multiple systems in your brain and body.

28:53 Like all screaming out at once, something's missing for your survival. So it's not about willpower. It's not about moral failure. God, this is guy's return to the behavior. It's more about neuroscience and biology, because your body and your brain have yet to find another way to regulate itself. So recovery coming out of the gates is about so much more than just stopping a behavior.

29:20 It's retraining your nervous system. It's I used to think, dude, I'll stop watching porn. When I stop thinking about watching porn, I'll stop watching porn when I stop having urges engravings to watch porn. I mean, if that were the case, I'd probably still be watching porn. So I had to learn how to deal with and cravings so they weaken over time.

29:39 I had to learn how to retrain my nervous system and ability to regulate my own emotions. And so we get caught up in the trap. Unfortunately, guys think this is about willpower. And you'll the entrepreneurs, the business executive, the men that are out there in the world that are able to accomplish things based on willpower, based on discipline, make this so much harder because their mind tells.

30:07 I could figure out a lot of stuff. I should be able to figure this out as well. And that dynamic it makes overcoming this challenger. So what? What is the answer then? I know you said connection, right? Yeah. Is that seems to be the the the medication for this is they is it only. It's more than that. It's more than that.

30:30 I think there are multiple dynamics that need to be addressed in order for a man to truly transcend this compulsion. Number one, and I just laid it out right. If you're using porn and sexualized social media and doom scrolling as a way to regulate your own emotions, as a way to avoid any type of discomfort, right? Coming out of the gates, dude, you've got to learn how to regulate your own emotions.

30:57 You've got to learn how to sit with discomfort. You've got to learn how to deal with urges and cravings so they weaken over time. So that's one element challenge two that has to be addressed. So many men, myself included, use pornography or sexualized social media as a way to avoid, suppress or numb emotional pain. Guys don't like feeling depressed or angry or lonely or bored or dealing with pressure.

31:24 So unless you begin to identify some of these root causes because porn abuse is about a symptom, you have to get down to root cause and conditions. If you don't, you will be vulnerable to returning to the behavior because you're going to have to numb the pain of being you. And that includes learning how to tolerate boredom. Because of the mobile phone. So many men, 35 and younger that have grown up with this technology have been so overstimulated and so desensitized, and have zero ability to sit with any type of discomfort, exceptionally boredom. So unless you begin to learn how to tolerate border, it is very difficult to get into long term recovery unless you begin to learn how to sit with stillness without reaching for your phone to number distract you.

32:23 Very hard to get and stay until long term recovery. Boredom is not the enemy, right? And so that's so important. Third thing and I mentioned it earlier right. Pornography abuse is often referred to as an intimacy disorder. So men need other men to become better men. Men need vulnerability role models. Men need love and connection in order to heal.

32:51 Very rarely do you see a man able to overcome a porn addiction by themselves. They need community. They need I think most most men try to white knuckle this on their own, don't they? 100% is the shame. Well, because, you know, oftentimes, you know, you hear guys. Steve I made it seven days. Steve I made it 21 days.

33:16 And like they're talking about the streak counting days and the streak. And then they return to the behavior. And then they're full of shame. And they go through this shame cycle. Right. They feel like crap about themselves. They man up, they boot up and they go for the next streak and they make it nine days and then they quote unquote, relapse.

33:38 They're full of massive amounts of shame and they're in this cycle. It's fascinating when guys come to valor. They've been watching porn for ten years, 15 years, 20 years. About half that time they've been trying to stop watching porn, which is insane, right? I started watching porn when I'm 12. I'm 28 years old. Honestly, since I've been 18, I've been trying to stop watching porn.

34:01 I've been trying to stop watching porn for a decade, and I can't because what's happening is, is you're trying to use willpower. You think this is a moral issue and you're not really changing anything about you, because recovery is not just about not watching porn. It's about becoming emotionally regulated, socially connected, and honest so that porn loses its effect on you over time.

34:28 Recovery is about building a life. You don't need to escape from. Recovery is about learning new tools to take better care of yourself emotionally, spiritually, and physically so that you don't need a maladaptive coping mechanism to deal with life. That's recovery. Recovery is about changing, so you don't need porn anymore.

34:55 Can you say more? More regulated said physically mentally emotionally. Talk to me about the importance of physical regulation. Like I'm looking at you. You look like you take pretty good care of yourself. So do you. Do you find that, when men don't take care of them? Let's just take that one element where we'll get to a motion.

35:18 The ones too. But do you find that when a lot of men are not taking care of themselves physically, like they're maybe not exercising, eating a high processed diet, you know, maybe drinking a little bit too much alcohol on the weekends, that kind of thing. That sounds like what that that could be. I don't want to say a trigger, but perhaps prerequisite or a symptom.

35:41 Do you find that 100% talk to me? You know, addicts especially that are full of shame, struggle and taking care of themselves? Kind of common even for me, right? I have to, even today. My fault. The default wiring is to work harder, not prioritize self-care, prioritize taking care of myself. And and so, you know, I have to work out, right?

36:16 It's not because, hey, look at my muscles. It's I have to take care of myself. Because when I go to the gym and work out hard, right. It helps me with my anxiety and depression. When I go to the gym and work out hard, it clears my head. I do coal, plunging several days a week as a way to regulate my nervous system.

36:38 Not that I love sitting in a freaking tub with 35 degrees, but I do these things to take care of myself. And so, so much of early recovery is learning new habits to take care of yourself emotionally, spiritually, and physically so that you don't have to turn to porn for relief. I don't need porn today. Nothing really changed.

37:06 I needed porn early in my life. I needed a whole bunch of other miserable other things, including drugs, to deal with the pain of being Steve. I've learned to take better care of myself today so that I don't need to escape from my life. And by the way, part of that is when I talk about taking better care of yourself physically, spiritually, and emotionally.

37:31 Part of that also for me, was learning to live a life that was rooted in integrity, honor, integrity, these kind of great qualities that I attribute to healthy masculinity. Because when I'm living my life in alignment with those values, I don't need to numb the pain of being Steve. Most days today when I look in the mirror, not every day I would be lying to you.

37:55 Most days. That's good guy. And so recovery is like learning to be a guy that you feel good about. I can see that, man. Fitness has been a part of my life for 34 years, and I couldn't imagine life without a unit. And it's, you know, the the physical advantages that come with taking care of yourself, I think, are just simply a byproduct. But like, I'm aligned with you, it is so therapeutic for me to just move my body every day in some way, shape or form, like it is such a regulatory thing for me.

38:40 Like, I usually train in some way, shape or form every single day and do something, whether it's good steps in, go to the gym, mobility, something. But the days that I don't, those are the days I don't necessarily feel more comfortable than I usually do. So it's it's a huge regulation tool for me. It's just mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically.

39:03 It's it's it helps me tremendously. I'm a better husband. Yeah. I'm a better father. Yep. I'm more patient. I'm less passive aggressive. I mean, the edges are just softened if I'm consistently engaging. You know, I had an addiction psychiatrist many years ago. Tell me, Steve, I cannot prescribe to you in a bottle something that's going to be more effective for you than a hard work out for your mental health.

39:33 That always stuck with me. That's great advice. And I'm not knocking medication at all. And I took medication early in my recovery for for depression and anxiety. But I always stuck to me. This guy is like the pillar of the medical community, telling me, Steve, get your ass to the damn gym daily. I promise you you'll feel better.

39:52 I always took that to heart. That's great advice. That's really great. I mean, it's it's very therapeutic. I find, you know, my my boys, all of them, actually, all four of them love to work out. And, you have a gym in the house, so. So that's kind of funny. We do have. We do have equipment here. I never use it because there's one there's one thing I've learned about myself. Now, I will do this. If my kids want to go do, like, a garage workout with me, like, oh, yeah, I'll say yes to that every day of the week, you know? So Covid, that must have been a little while for guys in the gym.

40:29 Shut down just lifting weights. Yeah. So it was so what we did during Covid was, is we did family workouts in the garage and which was really therapeutic. It was really fun. We still do that every now and again. My, my even my ten year old likes to he's like, hey, can we do an outdoor workout on Saturday?

40:44 I'm like, oh yeah, man, sign me up. But one thing I've learned about myself is I need the environment. So like I, I am not incredibly motivated to work out of my house. I have my luckily my gym is like literally it's two miles away. So it's I love going to the gym because I have to be in that environment where I see other.

41:03 It's it's it's exactly like what you're talking about, like it's community and connection. Like, I want to be around other people who are who I'm connected to, that I'm in community with and be in that environment. It's probably a lot like what you do with, with valid recovery. Yeah, I think I, you know, just something really interesting today that we, we see.

41:25 Men, especially in younger men. Have never been more isolated. Yes. Disconnected, having fewer friends. I don't think remote work is healthy for young men today. You know, that natural infrastructure of mentorship that happens in the workplace early in your life, the let's grab a beer after work type of thing, or let's go to happy hour and so many community. And so as you kind of track a lot of research coming out around this male loneliness epidemic and just there's some institutional structures that have kind of slowly disappearing throughout society where men would naturally go for community, right?

42:10 Community based resources. Even the churches today are fraction of people attend compared to 30, 40 years ago. And so men are really disconnected and alone today, more so than decades before it's a problem. We were just talking about this on another podcast that I was reading a, a paper or research that they did where they surveyed. I can't remember the number of men, but 70% of men report feeling, you know, moderate to extreme loneliness.

42:39 And over 80% of men didn't have a 3 a.m. friend. That's staggering, isn't it? Yeah, it's a problem. And as much as social media is supposed to be connecting us, for many of us is having an opposite effect, I would agree, I would agree, man. I really want to talk about boredom. You know, I, I really, really do because, I'm one of those people for sure.

43:01 I'm working on it to be better every day. I have a very hard time sitting still like, you know, a lot of people ask me, they're like, what's it like raising four boys? I was like, it's loud. There's always energy, there's always things going on. And recently I'll share this with you. My wife and I were joking last night.

43:19 I was like, I feel like in one summer, we went from four boys to two, and it's much quieter here now. And, you know, my, my oldest son is still here, but he's named he. And he works full time. He goes to school, and, so we don't see him nearly as much as we used to. And we just sent my first son to college, my my 18 year old to college.

43:38 So literally, like, we see the two little guys in my ten and 12 year old, but I told my wife I was like, you know what the most like? It's it's been loud in our house for a long time. But you know what the loudest noise is that I'm noticing is the silence. That's the loudest noise I'm noticing. And I, I thrive in being interactive and fun with my kids, busy with my kids, busy in the business. And I don't like being bored. And I think a lot of guys don't like being bored. We almost don't even know what the heck to do with ourselves. So what? What is boredom? What have you noticed about the impact of boredom as it relates to this?

44:18 Few things come to mind. As it relates to the role that an iPhone has played with men's inability to sit with boredom. So you're at the grocery store and I do the same damn thing, and there's one person ahead of you, maybe it's a 45 second wait, what's the first thing we do? Well, it's fun for fun and just distract ourselves with that.

44:52 And so that's interesting to me. I'll give you an example. At night I work a lot. We have a one year old, but I try to take the baby for a walk at night and get out of the house, give my wife some time and space and all that. And I'll tell you what's fascinating to me. If I bring this phone with me on that walk. It is such a different experience than if I don't bring the phone with me.

45:27 If I have the phone with me, it almost feels like the walk is an obligation. If I have the phone with me, I'll check it throughout the walk. Emails coming in and out, maybe quickly. A score of a game I don't really care about, and I can actually do the walk and not really be present for it if I don't bring the phone with me.

45:57 My attitude and experience is very different. I might hear birds chirping. I might notice the leaves, the color of the leaves as we're walking. Maybe that's a change of season right now. I might actually come over and look at my son and see him giggle a little bit, or tickle him a little bit as we're walking. And by the time I get back to the house, that was a replenishing experience.

46:31 I just share that with you as a guy that's been working on himself for decades right now. On the effect that this phone can have on dating the vibrancy of life. And so it's a distraction. And so as it relates to boredom and tying it back in a little bit, right, I think that men need to structure time away from their phones.

47:08 I think that men watching a bowl game with their son might want to have their phone in another room and be present for the experience. I think if a man is going to watch his son's game, keeping his phone in the car and being present for it, I think that so much of early recovery as men are kind of doing a stimulus, fasting, getting time away from porn or sexualized social media.

47:38 I think short form video is really, really unhealthy for us because we're losing the ability to concentrate. I believe that, embracing long form podcast can be really helpful yourself. I believe reading long form, reading books, long pieces of articles can be really healthy for you. And I believe that learning to tolerate and embrace stillness. And so even for me, right.

48:13 And I kind of run up constantly want to reach for my phone as boredom feels on tolerable. There's a gift in not doing that. There's a gift and beginning to build the muscle to tolerate boredom and then appreciate stillness. I had another guest talk about this concept of replenishment, like you're talking about I'll be really real with you. I as as you and I are talking right now, I feel like I'm in a bit of depletion when it comes to that because, it's been a really odd season for me as a father. You know, I've never.

49:02 My 18 year old was the first one to leave the nest. And I found myself over the past few months distracting myself because I didn't want the unsettling feelings of feeling sad, you know? And so how were you distracting yourself? Doom scrolling sometimes. Yeah. You know, or just looking for or or busy. My epidemic, I think, is my my vice is busyness, productivity.

49:25 And I think we can take that to an extreme. And I had another podcast guest said, can you go out and run 50 miles? Like, what would that do to your body? And I'm like, I'd be exhausted. He's like, that's really what we're doing to the brain when we're constantly stimulating it over and over and over and over again.

49:43 I found these little symptoms happening where I'd wake up from six, seven, eight hours of sleep and I'd feel exhausted, like just mentally, I'd feel that just that burnout, you know, mentally, I was like, what is the common denominator here? And it wasn't until I talked to him that I was like, well, I'm I'm being overly busy and distracted because I don't want to sit and think about being sad about my son not being here.

50:07 But if I found myself like running a brain marathon over and over and over again. So like this, this theme that you're talking about of replenishment, renewal, refreshment is quite refreshing, no pun intended. Yeah. What would it be like for you if you were to actually sit with the sadness? So over the past, I would say a week and a half. I've decided to I say I'm depleted. I'm not. I feel better about it now, but I had to get a little uncomfortable, you know, I had to I had to sit with my thoughts about.

50:48 I wonder if he's okay. I'm sad he's not here. You know, I and I, I would have like these responses to some of these things I'd see around the house. I'd like, go downstairs to do a load of laundry, and I'd walk past his room, and his room has a perfectly made bed, and there's no shoes on the floor and there's no clothes on the floor.

51:04 And and I'm like. And it was just like this reminder, man, I miss him, you know? And I don't want to think about missing him like I want to miss him, but I don't want to think about the sadness that comes along with that. And so I've been on I would say, like this ten day, you know, fasting, I guess you would kind of call it of like making sure that I just sit with those emotions and not and not judge them and just to be like, yeah, I'm sad and it's really sad.

51:32 Bingo. Yeah. Because so often I think men judge sadness. Not the feeling. It's the label you're attaching to the feeling that can really cause the pain and suffering. It's okay to be sad. It's okay to be lonely. And because what men do, myself included, I thought a label there. Therefore Steve, is a fill in the blank. Probably not a very nice word, and I think men are conditioned from a very early age to that. That is weakness and it's just not true.

52:17 I would agree with you, man. Is this what we're talking about right now? So I know we talked about the physical regulation. Is this the emotional regulation we're talking. 100% okay. So being able to sit with and tolerate your emotions without running and numbing, being able to label an emotion and be okay with it, it's okay. Maybe I'm off today.

52:47 Maybe I'm sad today. I'm kind of depressed today. That's okay. You know, sometimes we put so much value in these feelings. They're just feelings. They pass. Feelings are not facts. You hear that all the time in recovery. They're just feelings. But I had a lifetime of stuffing them and numbing them and suppressing them as if they're going to kill me. And it's just not true.

53:18 Do you know who Gary John Bishop is? No. He wrote the book on yourself. I heard the book. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Name? Yeah. He's written seven books on the topic of self-sabotage and, just a brilliant guy. I'm honored to call him a friend. I've known him since 2018, before his first book got really popular. And he said this quote, you know, back in 2018.

53:45 They'll never forget emotions are neither bad nor good. They just are. But we like to label them as bad or good. There it is. That's exactly, I think, what you're saying here. Yeah. So let's talk about this just a little bit deeper. A man feels sadness. How does he become okay with that? Because I think what's what?

54:07 The thing that we miss as men is like, I feel sad, and I love how you kind of, like, really cross this bridge of like I feel sad. Therefore I must be fill in the blank week, right? Or what is the how to of like it sounds like maybe acceptance might be the first step of like yeah, I feel sad today. What does a man do next after maybe acceptance.

54:34 Well with acceptance is the begin to tolerate the potential discomfort of sitting with that feeling without necessarily going to any length to numb, suppress, avoid it. And so, so much of emotional regulation, at least for me, is to be okay with what I'm feeling. And so that's a real big piece of recovery. The other thing also is to begin to develop the language to share with other men how you are feeling that power of vulnerability, right?

55:17 So much of my life, I've had this armor around me to protect me. When recovery is slowly taking off that armor, developing the language of vulnerability, being able to share with other men that am I not being doing okay today and be able to talk about that? Those are really powerful conversations. Do you find that vulnerability? This is what I found that vulnerability and authenticity is contagious in conversations like this. Sure. Because the first person that kind of puts himself out there and takes that emotional risk, it's admirable, right? It makes it safe for me to do the same.

56:05 So how do we here's here's the stumbling block. Now, I've been helping men in community for over a decade now. So I've seen this play out, you know, where a man shares something and then it's, you know, 2 or 3 guys in that group and they're like, oh my God, I'm so glad he shared that. I was thinking the same thing, or I'm so glad you shared that.

56:27 Now I can share mine. What what advice do you give for men to be brave enough to go first? So I think that's one of the biggest missing ingredients. I would answer that. You know, so much of me talking about my personal journey. And the courage it takes took to really break down the barriers. It's done with intention, so other men can have the courage to begin to talk about their journeys. And so I think vulnerability is so courageous. I had like when I tend to find healthy masculinity. Right. It's not someone's tough someone can man up. I mean, I think one of the most masculine qualities is a guy who has the ability and courage to be vulnerable, to share the truth.

57:43 So I don't know how you kind of necessarily get one person to to be the lead there other than take the lead yourself, model the behavior to others, and make it safe for them to begin to talk about this stuff. And then there's this domino effect that becomes really powerful, especially when you're dealing with sexual compulsive. Because so many metaphor of massive amounts of shame, they think that they're so unique in their experiences, and they're going to take these behaviors to the grave.

58:12 And that shame is killing them. So when you get in a circle, a group with other men, and someone has the courage to say, I did X, Y, and Z, and you realize you've done the same, I mean, the relief that can happen from that someone having the courage to lead with vulnerability can be so powerful in recovery.

58:38 I had a Navy Seal on the podcast. This was a long time ago. I'm pretty sure it was Jocko Willink, actually who said this. He said, you have to actually feel fear in order to exercise courage and bravery, because if you don't feel the fear, well, then it's there's no courage that's even there. There's no bravery there. It's it's actually comfort, right?

59:05 It's just doing the same thing. But one of the things that I've learned from him, and it sounds like you're you're in the same camp, is that a fear can be an opportunity. It can actually be access to you executing courage and bravery. And it sounds like you're you're in that same camp as well. I think vulnerability by its very nature is very risky.

59:32 Because you get ridged. And so but that's the antidote to the freedom you seek. I agree. And the beauty of vulnerability, it leads to meaningful empathy and connection. So don't cover it. You have a you have. These relationships are so powerful. They're lifelong friendships because they're rooted in vulnerability and empathy and authenticity. Very hard to find that in relationships with men in the outside world.

1:00:12 I would agree with that. So talk to me about how valor recovery works. Yeah, so Valor recovery is a coaching program, not therapy, although we have several of our coaches or therapists or physicians have medical backgrounds, but it's coaching. And so they're all in long term sexual recovery. Really important because we just have a unique, understanding of these afflictions because we've lived them personally and we might be ten years, 20 years, 30 years into recovery.

1:00:47 So really uniquely qualified to help guys embrace this. And we basically take a, you know, multifaceted approach to addressing this. Right. Number one, we take up the neuroscience and biology of a pawn damage brain helping guys kind of identify the the route, excuse me, identify and heal from, how porn and sexualized social media have affected your brain.

1:01:14 Helping men begin to learn how to regulate their own emotions. Deal with cravings. We do a lot of work with breathwork and mindfulness as it relates to dealing with cravings and urges. We help men begin to map out triggers. There's a pattern of when and where men consume pornography or sexualized social media, and begin to map that out and plan for it.

1:01:35 We begin to teach men the tools on how to tolerate boredom. How do I some of the root causes that are driving these compulsions? And at the end of the day, I like to think we're experts in human connection, which is the glue that brings this all together. That is the glue, man. It's the. Yeah. So it's an online program.

1:01:55 It's a 90 day program. And the beauty of the work we do and I love guys get better here. And we take a lot of pride in that. We take a lot of pride in that. This is really hard work. Half measures don't even get you half right. And so the guy that comes here, the guy that's done and just says, Steve, I, I either got a marriage on the line right now, I need to get I need to address this issue right now.

1:02:21 My life is in trouble. That guy can step in here and do really, really well of that. Man, you are doing amazing work, man. Thank you. As are you. I really I really, really mean that. I really admire that because it takes a ton of bravery. He would talk about the topic publicly and the fact that you were at the helm of this.

1:02:44 You've used your own experiences to help others, you know, and I think that's one of the most genuine things about you. Thank you. You know, there's this whole idea of putting purpose to your pain in the service of others, and your journey to hell and back can be the gift you bring. The world. You know, and I think so much of recovery for the men at valor also is they get to a point where they can then start helping others as well.

1:03:12 And that's where recovery really gets on steroids. Giving back, mentoring other men through your own life experiences of that man. Where can men find out more about you, about valor recovery? Where can they best connect with you? Sure, we can go to our website, find your valor.com and you'll find out more information about us, our programing to connect with us.

1:03:37 If you ever want to set up a consultation to learn more about the work we do, we'd love to talk to you. See if we're fit or not. If you're not a fit, we could point you to other directions and resources as well. It's all good. You can also find all our social media platforms on our website as well if you want to explore more there.

1:03:55 Well, I appreciate you coming on to that man. What a gift, Larry. Thank you for this opportunity. Oh, man. Pleasure is mine. The honor is mine. Thank you for coming on. I'm going to make sure it's easy for the guys to find you if you go to the dad. Edgecomb. Forward slash 1545 for this show. Again, the data is.com/1545.

1:04:14 We'll have all the links in the show notes for you obviously find your valor.com. We'll also include, the social media links as well for Steve. And if you're struggling with this. Hey number one, you're in good company. I struggled with this for years. Luckily I'm past it. But I'll tell you, it's a it's a battle. As a battle I don't think we should do in isolation.

1:04:36 So, Steve, thanks so much for coming on today, man. Thank you for having me.