The Danger of Raising Boys Through a Screen featuring Bill Winchester

0:02 Welcome to the Dad Edge podcast. The Dad Edge movement creates leaders of men. Leaders of families and leaders of communities. We will not only impact this generation of fathers, but the next generation as well. The kids we are raising will have better chances and odds stacked in their favor because of the amazing example that their fathers emulated for them.

0:24 We are here to change the world. We are here to change relationships. We are here to positively disrupt this generation of fathers. So no man goes to their grave with regret. We disrupt the drift of busyness and replace it with razor focused intention, passion, purpose and direction. We are the dad edge and we're here to change the game.

1:01 Bill Winchester, welcome to dad Edge. Welcome back to dad address to say what's up man. Dangerously good. Great to see you again, Larry. It's good to see you too, man. Really good to see you. We're going to be talking all things. How to raise a dangerously good young man. And I believe, man, this is something that is really missing in our society today.

1:25 And I'm going to I'm going to get into your bio because everybody who comes on the show gets an introduction. But, I just want to start with, with you, you started a rite of passage with your son Jake, your oldest son, Jake, and I believe. What year did you do that? 2021. Yeah. So what was the what was the motivation behind that and how was he at the time?

1:50 So he was 18 at the time. The motivation really was to kind of put a cap on everything that, you know, as a father, I had worked to instill in him, to prepare him. We knew he was moving into the next stage of life. At the time, you know, Covid had happened and was still affecting a lot of athletes. And so his prospects of where he was going to go play football and what he might do were a little uncertain. And we just we weren't sure where he was going to go. And, and I had always known that I wanted to give him a proper sendoff. I didn't want him feeling, especially with the uncertainty in the world at that time, like he was stepping into the unknown, unsupported and without backing.

2:32 And so, that that was a big, a big part of it. There was just really wanting to, you know, I think a few weeks before we had had a graduation party and a big thing with family and friends and celebrated his achievement. But we wanted to make sure that we also, you know, he didn't feel like he was getting a set of luggage and a kick out the door kind of thing.

2:54 He was he was well prepared. I think that's something that is so missing. I'm curious. You started that at 18. You now run a platform called Dangerously Good Men, which it's for young men between. If I, if I'm right here I Levon to 14. Is that correct. So we do 12 to 15 is the target. We've had some 11 year olds and we will let some 11 year olds in.

3:18 It kind of depends. You know, some young men hit that stage where they're ready for it a little sooner than others. But, yeah, realistically, you know, I didn't start it with Jake at 18. What we did for him, we called a completion ceremony. And we were privileged enough here on our property just a few months ago to run one of those for actually one of the two families that were at the very first, rite of passage that Dangerously Good Men did back in 2022, you know, so we have a father and son that came to the first event that I put on for other men.

3:52 And four years later, he brought, you know, his son and grandpa and uncle and another, brother and, and we ran an event here on our property, similar to what I did for my son Jake at the end of his. And, you know, we can get into some more of the nuts and bolts of what that kind of looks like and how that's been adapted and transformed into the the Dangerously Good Men framework.

4:18 But yeah, it was really neat to see it come full circle. I mean, it was similar to, you know, watching what you did with Mason. You guys were at, you know, the second event we ever did and and, just wrapped up his, process there as he moved into the next phase of life. Yeah, I brought for for those of you guys who don't know if you've been listening to the podcast for any amount of time, I'm a huge believer in Rites of Passage, and I brought Mason into that evolution right before he turned 15.

4:47 So it was a month before he turned 15. He was still 14. And the coolest thing, I mean, obviously the event was absolutely amazing. I I've talked about your event several times over the past four years to other men and on this podcast and how important it was. And but the thing I liked about it a lot as well is there was several evolutions of growth that went beyond that, you know, and we'll get into what that looks like.

5:12 But I really loved it. And I'm really excited because I know your next event is going to be on January 28th through the 30th, and in 2027, I'm bringing Lawson, who will be 13 at that time. He he turns 13 in November, and I'm really excited about that. It was a it was a total game changer for for Mason, for myself, for our connection, for our relationship.

5:34 And it gave me just this beautiful blueprint of what to do with him over the next four years as he prepared for, for basically manhood, you know, and, so I want to introduce you to the crew and everybody who comes on this show gets an introduction. So Bill Winchester, you know, I, I've known you for a long time, but I even before, you know, this podcast, I was like, you know, some of your bio because I just want a little bit more meat on the bone.

5:59 But when I was reading your story, there was one word that kept showing up just over and over and over again in my mind and in my heart. And that was builder. Builder. You've been pretty much building your entire life. It started with back backyard tree forts. Then at 21 years old, you married your high school sweetheart, Christy, and the two of you started building a family.

6:22 Three kids in three and a half years. So that was pretty quick. Then you started building the places where where your family would grow and where other families would grow. You literally helped build the church that your family worshiped in and the school your kids attended. But somewhere along the way, you realize the most important thing you were going to build wasn't a house, a church, a school, or even a business.

6:47 It was men. That realization came alive when you started coaching your sons sports teams, and eventually created a rite of passage for your own son, Jake. As we've talked about in 2022, you hosted the first ever Rite of Son passage in Bend, Oregon, and since then, Dangerously Good Men. You have helped through that program. You've helped 34 fathers intentionally lead their sons out from boyhood into manhood.

7:13 And what I love about your work is that you didn't stop with boys. You also founded the improving grounds, where men gather around a fire on Saturday mornings, share their strengths, talk honestly about their struggles, challenge themselves, and become better husbands, fathers, and leaders. You've got two organizations, but really one mission behind it all males aren't born. Men must be built.

7:37 That message hits especially home for me, because I've personally walked Mason through that rite of passage back in 2022, and I know firsthand how powerful it can be when a father intentionally calls his son into manhood. So today, I want to unpack a lot with you. I want to unpack what you've learned about fathers, what you've learned about sons, initiation, masculinity, community, and what happens when good men stop leaving manhood to chance.

8:07 So, Mr. Winchester, welcome here. Welcome back. So glad to have you. Hey, thanks again very much. It's a pleasure to be here. It's great to have you back. So let's talk about. Let's talk about some of the problems that are out there. You know, you and I are the first generation of dads, I think raising young men through the digital world, you know, you and I, I mean, think about this for a second.

8:32 I'm 51. I know we're not too far off in age, but did you ever think when when you and I were kids, when we were playing the Tari or Nintendo or anything like that, that when we watched the movie back to the future and you saw the crazy things minus the flying cars, that we would have a window to the world on not just one device, but several different devices.

8:53 And we are now raising kids. Devices are still new to us. They've only been around for about 20 years, but now we're raising the next generation, trying to navigate this ourselves as individuals, as men, husband, fathers and leaders. But we're also trying to help navigate our kids. And I feel like we're really on dangerous ground. And I would just love to know what what is some information or some data points that you want to share with the audience about what you're seeing in the world?

9:22 Yeah. Well, I mean, we talked a little bit before we started. I don't have any, big list of statistics here. What I can tell you, you know, if I were to pull it up is it's not anecdotal, but it's experiential based. You know, one of the things I think probably one of the most shocking things, and what I can point to is, is the despair in the male population in particular, and, and the way that is showing up, you know, we're going to talk a lot about rite of passage and fathers helping their adolescent sons make that transition.

9:55 But, a couple of years ago, my father in law, who's retired, became a chaplain. And so he's a guy that goes out and supports first responders in the area. And he, immediately was was sharing some of these stories, obviously not details, but, you know, the the percentage of the calls that he would go out on. So basically, anytime somebody dies that's not in a care facility or a hospital, a chaplain goes out and the striking percentage of suicides, male suicides in that 30 to 50 range was unreal.

10:34 I mean, it blew him away at blew me away. So I saw that, you know, immediately as something that I could connect back to this lack of community, lack of connection that men have. And I see that as a direct follow of, of this online world that we're living in now. I've actually got a, a book that I've started writing in, a program that I've started coaching through called danger and the Art of 3D living in a 2D world.

11:00 Because what's what's so crazy to me is that when you and I were young, like, that was the promise of all this 3D stuff, right? I remember the first 3D movie I saw in a theater. You got the blue and red lenses and it's, you know, it's jumping out the screen at you. Right? And then we start getting these more advanced and more advanced and more advanced options and all this reality, virtual reality and even AI support and stuff.

11:23 Now that that's been promised to us, and we've got all the trouble we have with deepfakes and, and all of this stuff, it looks more real than ever. And yet the actual 3D stuff that we were promised, what we've ended up with is a bunch of people walking around staring at their hands. We've got these 2D screens, for the most part, their high resolution, and they're really flashy and high contrast, and they'll grab your attention.

11:48 They don't want to let it go. But when this really started to hit me was I took my family on a road trip and we took a couple of weeks. We went to Yellowstone, and we're in one of the most amazing settings in the country. And I'm looking around and we got all these tourists that are looking at these incredible three dimensional in your face, larger than life representations, and their staring at them through the viewfinder of a 2D screen.

12:15 We have people living their lives through these little screens. They are more connected than ever and they have no community whatsoever. And so I've seen that show up, you know, in the anecdotal statistics my father in law shares with me about the the number of male suicides in one of the most desirable locations to be. I mean, bend is growing like crazy.

12:38 People come here. There's all kinds of outdoor activities. There's all kinds of things that, That people want to be a part of. And, and yet people are more alone than ever. And so I say all that to say that, you know, a big part of what the initiation process is, rite of passage, what we do through this framework is we help men transition from protecting their sons into preparing them. And that really is the shift that we need to make happen.

13:11 You know, you know, from being there at the event that we call it a point of beginning. Right. And so that 12 to 15 year age frame, that's not just because we randomly picked a number. You know, you can go back to views, you can look at Jewish tradition, you can look at the bar mitzvah and the age for that.

13:27 Like for young men, this really is kind of where it happens. And there's all kinds of biological things happening too. But what I love about it is that 12 to 15, that gives us 3 to 6 years to take these six core values that we introduce at the rite of passage, and walk fathers through a process of bringing other men and significance into their son's life and and instilling these core values and giving them, you know, what we talk about, you know, you saw these, you know, the the pocket quiver full of arrows.

13:59 We want to give them some ammunition. We want to give them some support. We want to put some, some resources in their pocket so that when you drop them off at whatever that next phase is, you're not just leaving them empty handed and hoping for the best. Yeah, you're leaving them like, I love that that differentiation between protecting and preparing, because I think it's just so hard wired in our DNA that we want to protect that.

14:30 I sometimes I think we over comfort and we try to keep our kids from adversity. And I think that preparation piece is something that is so missing. You know, I going back to your stats, you know, where, you know, people feel lonely in the world. I read an article where they did a study. They did a survey with men between the ages of 18 to 50 and 70 plus men, 70 plus men reported feeling lonely.

15:00 And over 80% of men did not have a 3 a.m. brother that they could call a 3 a.m. call. So, like, you know, if all hell broke loose, they didn't have a trusted person that they could call, not even their own parents. So that's I think that's really in this world we live in today. Two of those ones that did.

15:19 How many of them lived anywhere close to him? How many of these guys now, the one guy they can call is on the other side of the country? Gents, if you've been thinking about joining the Dad Edge Alliance, October is the month to do it. I'm giving away several things, and one is not even going to be available to the public until January 2027.

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17:15 Lead the change again. The date edge.com/join for the month of October for all these goodies and advance copy of my new book. Right. I mean it's I mean it's it's it's really interesting. Even my local area, I have tighter friendships with people who are not in my local area, which is kind of scary to me. I mean, obviously I've got, you know, my my three guys, I do have a 3 a.m. friend.

17:39 I know I could call one person in particular when all hell breaks loose, but, you know, I you've talked about it and I remember the very first video that you put together, and it was so powerful. And I remember you talking about this liminal space. Did I say that right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And liminal is Latin correct?

18:00 It is. Talk to me about what happens in this liminal space with young men between the ages of, let's just call it a maybe even 11 to 18. But I know you, you specialize in 12 to 15. But what is the liminal space? So liminal is is a thin space, right. So the word actually talks about a threshold. And, you know, being a builder, being a guy that's worked in spaces, I kind of geek out on some of this. I was actually looking at something yesterday. Just randomly happened. Komachi, I think, is a Japanese word. They actually have a very specific kind of threshold that they build into traditional Japanese architecture that defines the entrance into the home.

18:39 And so like a, a brief little spot there where they give you a chance to let the world stay outside and we're entering this new place. And that really is what happens in, in a rite of passage, in an initiation is that, we talk I don't know, you know, so much of this has developed over the last 5 or 6 years.

19:00 I don't know if we were using this, language when you brought Mason, but I talk about the fact and and we we very quickly, in the event say the boy is dead. He's dead. He's gone. Okay. You are not a dangerously good man now, right? You are not, a man, but you're in process, right? And that's that liminal space.

19:22 There's a space in between, you know, when you, look back, I mean, even talking about how we understood this better. In days gone by, men used to carry their wives over the threshold into the house. Right. There was a significance about that crossing, and we've lost that. We were talking before we started recording about how, you know, going back as far as World War two, we started seeing a transition, transition and a shift where fathers were more and more in factories or office jobs, and they're not in the family as much.

19:53 And the young men are being raised by mom, more hands on in the house. And and maybe by nobody, I mean, I know there was a whole generation I remember being called latchkey kids. You know, they had a key around their neck. They left school, they walked home. Nobody's there. They're making dinner. They're fending for themselves. And so you couple that with a massive amount of information, entertainment, access to content, going from, you know, the tube television and the, the video games where you had to have cartridges to.

20:29 Now all of this is in the palm of your hand on a device that far too many young kids are carrying around. Who's raising the kids? Who's preparing them, and what are they preparing for? You know, the number one, aspiration of of a lot of these kids in grade school. Now, what do you want to be? They want to be a YouTuber.

20:46 They want to be a content creator. They want to be an influencer. Has anybody really talked with them about what that life looks like? I don't really think. I mean, I don't really think so. I think they, they see, they see all the, I don't know, the glory, I guess, you know, the, the attention. You know, there's been studies done that when people, you know, have likes and comments that there's these hits of dopamine, you know, that are quite euphoric. And you and I, I mean, we didn't have that growing up, you know, I mean, my, my, my ten year old of all people, he's always like, how big is your podcast?

21:29 I was like, oh, you know, we get about 300, 400,000 downloads a month. And he's like, what about social media? I was like, I don't know, about a half a million. He's like, and then he looks at my YouTube channel and there's 15,000 subscribers. And he's like, why are your subscribers so low? I'm like, I don't know. I was like, to be honest, like, I don't really pay a whole lot of attention to YouTube.

21:47 Maybe I should. He's like, well, if you get 100,000 followers, you get this like special button and like this silver plaque and they mail it to you. I'm like, that's great. I was like, if it ever happens, that's awesome. But that's not the goal, man. He's like, well, he's like, well, what is it? What is the goal? And because, you know, you see, I was like, your dad just speaks from his heart, man.

22:07 Like I don't speak for clicks. I don't speak for likes. I don't speak for subscribers. I just speak for my heart. I was like, and I think that's something that a message needs to be really instilled in this digital world, where you find your worth and your value by how many people follow you or like you or whatever.

22:27 I think it's super dangerous, right? It's just just. Yeah, be a man of heart. It was interesting, with what you just said there, it made me think about a moment. Just six weeks or so ago, Jason Culver, who, you know, and a lot of the listeners might know, is a dad edge guy. He came out, we have an event, a new event that Dangerously Good Men is doing called Benchmark Adventures.

22:51 And we just ran our first one in July. And I'm super excited about, you know, we're going to have another one next July. But Jason was leading the session up on top of a mountain, and we were talking about, he was he was teaching the the guys about how to use a compass and, and going through some of the, the, the intricacies of actually using a compass more than, you know, the average person picks it up and thinks that it's pointing them north.

23:17 And there's all kinds of other things that go into it. Right. And, and some of it's a little bit technical. And one of the young men that was there just said, well, what if I just use the app on my phone? You know, I can just pull up the compass app. And, in the moment I said something that one of the dads, he said, hey, say that again.

23:33 We need to write that down. And and what it was, was, you know, anything that can give you everything has the power to take it all away, you know? And so when we rely upon these devices, when we start thinking that all of the good is in these, these things, you know, if you could get enough likes, if you could get the recognition, if you could get all this in this place, that can all go away in an instant.

23:58 And and what are you left with then? You know, and I think that's where maybe even going back to that despair that a lot of these people feel they'll build these big followings, they'll have a, you know, giant number of friends on Facebook, and then they get to a moment in their life where they're like, who really cares who's going to help me?

24:16 Who's going to answer the call if I cry out? And and that's, you know, points back to one of the things that I think I mentioned years ago, you know, going to the improving ground sides of things, which is kind of an entry point to dangerously good men in the local community. What we're doing at Fire and Legends, our Saturday morning gatherings, really is about transforming the SOS.

24:38 You know, SOS means save our souls, right? It's a cry for help when all is lost and and sadly, in this world where so many people are disconnected, their cry for help. For a lot of men, you know, your age, my age, a little bit younger. They just give up. They've got nobody there. They feel like nobody's going to listen.

24:57 We want to shift that to share our strengths. We want to be proactive. Getting men engaged in connected shoulder to shoulder, going into good battle for one another. We want to cut the the crisis off at the pass and start building strength before. Before it's needed. That's what a dangerously good man does. We talk about it in one of the core values, you know, of heroic manhood is responsible, right?

25:22 And that's master of self-serving of others. We don't build strength for ourselves. You aren't getting those those followers and those likes and all of that because you want to puff up your ego. It really is about serving the men that are following. It is about giving them content on a regular basis that helps them in their home. I love that man.

25:42 Let's you know, you, you said the word responsible, which I know is one of the core values that's on these six arrows. Is it okay if I give a spoiler of the rite of passage? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So one of the most beautiful things I, I've, I've taken my boys on, I did sort of a nonchalant, rite of passage of my own with Ethan and Mason, where we went out to Colorado and we hiked up a 14 year and, you know, a long the path.

26:12 And that's that's a quite a grueling process, especially for a young man. It takes about 12 hours, you know, depending on the 14 or that you do. 14. And by the way, for those of you who don't know, a 14 year is a 14,000ft mountain. So it's a hike to a peak of a 14,000 plus mountain. We did Mount Quandary.

26:27 I did Mount Quandary of Mason, and I did Mount Bierstadt with Ethan. And the entire the entire evolution of that was I told the boys, I said, we're going to hike up this mountain. What the mountain represents is your ascension from boyhood into manhood. And what we're going to do is this is going to take about 12 hours round trip.

26:50 I mean, we start at the trailhead at 430 in the morning because you got a summit before noon in Colorado. Otherwise the weather starts to come in and you don't want to be above tree line if lightning starts to hit. So we we started summiting. I had seven letters in my pocket and six were along the way. And then the seventh was at the top.

27:11 And I told the boys, I said, we're going to stop very deliberately and we're going to, we're going to, I'm going to read you a letter. And your your core values were very similar to mine. And I wrote this in the book, Pursuit of Legendary Fatherhood, where I had these, these six tenets of being a young man. And I said, we're going to stop.

27:32 We're going to take a break, we're going to hydrate, we're going to eat, we're going to we're and I'm going to read you these letters, and we're also going to take in the beautiful views along the way, because everybody wants to get to the top, and they don't ever stop to take a look around at the beauty and where they've been.

27:47 You know, we're going to we're going to recognize how far have we come. And then your first steps down this mountain are the first steps that represent that. You are now a young man. And it was it was I mean, I threw it together just, you know, with my own stuff. Right. And but I wanted something more powerful than that.

28:03 I took Ethan on the Squire event, which was it's a 15 hour crucible, very physical, but it was kind of a one and done. And then, it's kind of funny. I, I was really sold on taking Mason to the Squire. And as athletic and fit, and Mason kind of, like, embraces that kind of stuff. He looked at me, he said, dad, I ain't doing that.

28:27 I was like, what? Really? Why? And he's like, that's not my thing. I was like, but it is your thing. Like, I thought it was your thing. Like, you're my workout buddy. We do. We do the Memorial Day, Murph. We do all kinds of stuff together. Like he's like, yeah, that's not really my thing. Then I described your event to him and he said, that's my thing.

28:45 And, you know, I didn't know much about it, but I said, this is not a really physical rite of passage. It's more spiritual, intellectual, emotional, with life lessons where you and I can connect. And he was sold immediately. He's like, that's what I want to do. And, the thing I, I've loved yours the most. And by the way, I, I'm sharing this guy's from my heart.

29:07 I have no financial interest in bills. He doesn't pay me if guys come out and do this thing. I loved yours the most because it was such a launching pad for the next four years. And we leave with six arrows with these core values written on these beautiful arrows. Beautiful, beautiful. I'm guessing they've got to be expensive arrows.

29:28 I mean, they're absolutely stellar arrows and they're real, right? That's one of the things. These are arrows you can put in a bow and shoot at an animal. Right. And over the next four years we went through he earned his six arrows. And then the whole process ended with, you know, we put him in a shadow box as he earned them, and it's got the Dangerously Good Men logo in the background, and he's got his quiver and all that.

29:52 And I told, you know, I told them along the way. I only mentioned it a couple of times because I didn't want to force this on him. I was like, this is meant to go to college with you and hang it on your wall. And so, like a week before he left for college, I gave him his last arrow. He earned his last arrow, and then I we were packing up his room and I said, are you bringing your shadow box? And he looked at me like I had three heads. He's like, why wouldn't I? He was like, this was what it was meant to be. And I was like, and dude, my heart just melted. And then we we got in his dorm room.

30:21 We we moved him in and he hung it. And it was such a beautiful culmination of that experience from the actual event that you hosted and then the four year journey. And it was we took this picture in front of it and I was like, wow, like, mission accomplished. But I want you to to talk about these six core values.

30:42 Yeah. So so the six core values, you know, we've adapted them a little bit, but there there's something that I came across in Doctor Michael Green's book, The Wonder of Boys Raising Boys by Design. I think maybe. So it's an acronym, and I, you know, I, I actually spent some time thinking, can I, can I change this?

31:03 Can I make this more my own? And I realized, no, I can't. So just reached out and said, hey, we're gonna we're going to use this. What do you think? And he was all for it. So it's the acronym is heroic. And and I just I couldn't find a better word for what we're trying to transition these young men into.

31:20 Right. And, you know, we've got the the superhero phase going on right now, but it's always been there, right? Comic books and Superman and all that. Every young boy wants to be a hero. Every boy looks at his dad as his hero. And really, a lot of what we're doing here is we're trying to create a framework and a process to to make that stick.

31:38 Right. And so the heroic core values are honorable, enterprising, responsible, original, intimate and creative. And for guys that come to the event, they'll find out that we have a mantra that we've developed for each of those, we we offer it up, but we also let you know, fathers and sons know, hey, if you want to come up with your own mantra for this, great, really, you know, one of the things that I like to make clear at the beginning of this event is, is isn't the Bill Winchester show, this isn't build the builder doing all the work.

32:08 And and I am definitely not the hero I am, if anything. You know, the the short little awkward green guy. Yoda. Right? I'm just kind of pointing the way I, I have no interest in being anybody's, guide in all this because I, you know, you're going to take your son and you're going to go home and it's going to be the two of you.

32:30 I'm not going to be there. So we we lay out a framework. We talk about, you know, the process is at the event. We get you very quickly deep connection, a shared vision for the future and a framework to get there. And I'm guessing you would agree that those things happen very, very quickly. There's something about the power of men who are deeply invested, highly intentional and outside of their normal condition, with a group of other men that they know are in the same place.

33:04 They get real very, very quickly. And then there's something really powerful that happens when sons see their fathers do that. The one of the one of the most rewarding things that I get to see and, and other guys that have helped John and Jason and Andreas, they get to see it too. We see these young men's eyes light up when they start seeing their dads interact and and share stories and share things that they've never heard come out of their dads mouth in front of these other men.

33:36 There's something about that. So I always want to tell people to, like, we're not. I don't hide this stuff. We have, a church that, I've worked with pastor that came and brought a son through the event, and we're helping them facilitate a version of this. They do it every year with the 11 or 12 year olds at their church.

33:55 They make it a point. They encourage the entire church body to prepare for this. This isn't about me trying to make this, all about dangerously good men or Bill, this really is about trying to equip the next generation. I see this as how our our nation, our communities, our families all get better by having more dangerously good men in them.

34:17 Right? And so I'll share whatever anybody wants to know. But one of the things that I make really, really clear is there's there's power that comes from doing this in a group setting. There's power that comes from men, not doing this alone and not doing it in that home environment. The number of stories that happened where, you know, the first night at the lodge, I got guys pulling me aside.

34:42 The trip here was the most intense thing in our relationship ever. I never knew these things about my son. The flight over from the east coast to bend. You know, I learned stuff that, you know, I've been trying to figure out for years about my son. That's pretty neat stuff, too. So I know I kind of got away from the core values there, but those six core values, for heroic manhood, is that what you were asking about?

35:06 It was. Yeah. Okay. So let's, let's give some clarity here. What's enterprising? Guys, I need your attention for just a second, because this is one of the coolest opportunities we've ever had for the Dad Edge audience. I was recently contacted by the Arizona Cardinals, and they want to host an official Dad Edge day at State Farm Stadium.

35:33 So on Sunday, November 15th, we are taking over Arizona for an absolutely epic day of Brotherhood football and celebrating the men who are part of the Dad Edge audience. The Arizona Cardinals are taking on the Los Angeles Rams, and we have put together something really special for you guys. When you get a ticket through the data edge.com/nfl, you're not just getting a seat at the game.

35:56 You're going to get a signed copy of my book, The Pursuit of Legendary Fatherhood. You're going to get an exclusive dad edge iron sharpens iron branded shirt. And before the game, we are going to be doing a private meet and greet where I get to hang out with you, shake your hand, we get to take some pictures and spend some time together before we all head into the stadium.

36:16 Gents, this is going to be an awesome day. I mean, think about it. Hundreds of men from the Dad Edge audience all to show up to one game. We are all over the country, actually all over the world. And we're trying to become better husbands, better fathers and better men. But on November 15th, we actually all get to come together.

36:35 We get to do the meet and greet, we get to celebrate the brotherhood, and then we get to walk into State Farm Stadium together and watch the Cardinals take on the Rams. This is not something we've ever done before, and I have a feeling these tickets are not going to last long. So if you want to be a part of the first ever Dad Edge day with the Arizona Cardinals, go to the dad edge.com/nfl right now to get your tickets.

36:59 Again. That's the data edge.com/nfl. Get your ticket. Get your sign book. Get your iron sharpens iron shirt. Come hang out with me before the game. And let's make November 15th a day that none of us will forget. And I cannot wait to see you there. So and so. I'll do it this way. I'll give you the the monitors connected to them.

37:21 Right. So honorable. Do the right thing no matter what. Enterprising. Find a way to keep moving forward. Responsible master of self. Servant of others. Right. Original. Is be comfortable around others, not a copy of others. Intimate in life, in love, in friendships. Be a man of depth and then creative. Always be creating, not just consuming.

37:48 You know, these are things that are powerful in there. They're just they're simple statements, but they're also broad and widely adaptable. So we actually have, I created what I call the 3D installation method. And we have a 3D living for dangerously good man is define, defend, develop. Right. And so we've I've written a curriculum and we offer coaching for men.

38:12 That's something that we can talk about here. It's something we're going to offer as an exclusive, to that listeners with a code, if they register for this upcoming event in January, they're going to get a free 90 minute call within two weeks of attending the event. That helps them begin that process of intentionally instilling these arrows. But we have this process that we go through, and there's all kinds of, you know, it's almost like choose your own adventure with the resources that we put in there for father to just kind of pick and choose what applies, what's applicable, what's available in their area, and go even deeper on each of these core values.

38:49 We offer, some, some help in recruiting what we call Moses Moss, a man of significance. Right. So that that first event that I did with my son Jake, the men of significance that were there, it was me. It was my father. It was my wife's father. It was one of his uncles and his youth pastor and a close family friend that has been there, you know, for as long as he remembers.

39:18 And each of these men wrote a letter kind of like what you did, connected to one of those core values. And and he was presented those letters along with those arrows. And, and in that process, they're telling him about, you know, how that core value has been an essential part of the successes in their life where not operating in that core value has been a hindrance or a problem in their lives, where they see potential pitfalls for him, you know, because they know him intimately.

39:49 By going through this intentional process, they know about Jake or Zeke or Mason, right? You invite these, these men in and give them a glimpse and give them a stake in your son's future. And then they they they end it with some some praise, some encouragement, where they see this core value showing up in his life, where they see that he's strong in this.

40:14 And at the bottom of it, it's got, you know, he's already got their phone numbers and their emails, but it's got a reminder that I am available anytime. You know, we talked about 3 a.m. friends. One of the most powerful experiences for me was driving away from Jake's dorm room. And, you know, Christi sitting in the the passenger seat.

40:36 He's up in Spokane. It's a seven hour drive, and we're dropping him off, you know, early. There's almost nobody at the campus, just the football team. And. And she's tearing up because we're leaving her baby boy behind. Right. But similar to what you're saying, one of the first things he packed from his room and one of the first things he unpacked into his dorm was that quiver full of arrows and full of letters.

40:59 And so for me, that that that was full circle, that understanding that, you know, I can't protect him seven hours away, but I've prepared him right, because I know that if for some reason he wouldn't call me, which there wasn't really any reason I could think of that he wouldn't were close. That's one of the great things about this process, is that, you know, we talk about fathers and sons.

41:21 Dad steps to the side. Son steps up. From this point forward. We're moving shoulder to shoulder, pointed in the same direction. It's not me guiding you all the way. And and you probably remember, I'm sure you do, because you're you're climb up tomorrow mountain was was impactful. That process is the beginning of a hey you get to navigate on your own some of this stuff.

41:44 Right? But as we were were driving away, I knew that he had five other men that he knew I believed in, that he knew believed in him that he could call and reach out to anytime. You know, if if I wasn't able to get there, if I wasn't able to answer the phone, they would. And the the level of security in a father's heart, knowing that you've prepared your son well and you haven't sent him out alone into the world, that's pretty powerful, man.

42:13 That's that's worth every bit of investment that it takes to get there. And, you know, I know I'm kind of rambling on here, but I started before we hit record telling you, you know, just this last Friday, our youngest son, Zeke, moved out. And Saturday morning, when I got up to make the coffee and I saw one of our dogs sleeping on the bed in his room where he isn't anymore.

42:35 And knowing that he won't be that one snuck up on me. And and what a great thing it was as I was sitting there tearing up a little bit, thinking about that one's over to, you know, we've moved to a new phase. You know, he sent us a video. I helped him put some furniture together. We got a mostly moved in, but then we left.

42:55 He sets up his room and he sends a video, to the family chat of of his room all set up, right? His bookcases and his books and everything. And in that video, you know, he's got his quiver sitting on the shelf. You know, it's an important thing to him. He's got these men in his life that have been transformational and will continue to be.

43:16 So, that's what it's all about, you know? And so we call the the rite of passage a point of beginning. And since you and Mason were here, you know, a lot of the work that's gone into the program has been around creating more and more support and structure and and a framework of offerings to help fathers recruit those men of significance and make sure that, you know, really, we're sending these younger men out with all the preparation they need some some guys in their corner.

43:45 And they've also developed some skills in that process of installation. We call it, where they're going to be able to build their own band of brothers. They're going to be able to build a group of peers that they're intentionally connected with, and that they hold each other accountable in a way that you and I weren't really trained up to do.

44:04 You know, when we were hitting 18, 20, heading off to college or next phase of life, nobody had prepared us to figure out how to navigate that. And now it's even harder. So to give them some exposure to that, to give them some skills that they can take into the next phase of life. I mean, it just puts them miles ahead of their peers.

44:25 Let's go a little deeper on that. As far what what I mean by that is having other good men besides the dad in a man's life, you know, I've got a got a great father in law, I really do, somebody who will call my boys forward. He'll call my boys forward to me. Like we just had a conversation, and I'll.

44:48 I'll leave. I'll leave this out for privacy. He's a he, which which kid? It was, but, my father in law and I were talking. He's like, hey, I've noticed a few things with one of the boys. And I was like, what's that? He goes, said something like, really inappropriate things. You know, he's like, but he's kind of at that age.

45:05 But he says some really inappropriate things. I was like, what are you hearing? And he told me some of the things he was hearing. It was it was I would say, quote unquote societal accepted, age appropriate type of stuff. But I told him I was like, I really appreciate you telling me that, because I know for this young man, he really holds his grandfather in high regard, doesn't want to disappoint him.

45:29 Right. And conversation I had with him is I I've noticed these things. Other people have noticed these things your brothers have, your mother and I have and your grandfather. And as soon as I said your grandfather, he he like his his eyes were just like, oh, my. Like you could tell, he was like, oh my God, I'm disappointed.

45:47 My grandfather. And you know, there's there's other men in his life, like his football coach who I've been friends with for over a decade. You know, there are times where I'll see my son doing. And I did this with Mason, too, when he was younger, and I would I would call on. His name was Vito. I'd call him Vito, and I was like, hey, I'm noticing these things with Mason right now.

46:08 And this is when he was playing Little League football. And Vito would, you know, after or after practice, after I informed him of things, would pull my son aside and say, hey, I need to speak some truth into you. And, you know, right away, you know, kids, when they admire somebody, they think highly of somebody and they know that a man is operating with high integrity.

46:32 Their ears and their heart really perk up. And, you know, like after that conversation that even Mason had with Vito, I was like, what was the conversation like? And he was. And you could tell it went to a depth. I think, with him that was different than what I could do. And I think that's really important for young men to have these other men in their lives.

46:50 But talk to me a little bit more about the importance of men not only having their fathers. And I think we need to and I know you're careful with this, but we need to choose this circle very wisely. Right. So talk to me a little bit more about that. Yeah. Well to expect a young man especially you know we were talking about the amount of stuff they're exposed to in this day and age to, to expect them to self-select a good role model, a good man to, you know, influence the decisions they make.

47:18 That's, that's that's crazy. Right. But I love where you went with that because it's it's actually fundamental to part of my story. And part of what I share with people is, you know, I started coaching my, my boys in sports, baseball, in football when they were, you know, in middle school. And Jake was a quarterback up until, you know, his junior year in high school where he we moved and he got shifted around.

47:42 But I was his coach and and it it became really clear, to me that there were some things he was going to receive better from Coach Hector, you know, so rather than telling Jake something I saw that needed to be corrected or could be adjusted, I started figuring out real quickly, I'm going to go grab Hector. I'm going to put a bug in.

48:01 Hector's here. And, you know, inevitably on the ride home or before we've even got gear packed up, Jake's telling me, hey, coach, Hector said this. What do you think? I think that sounds like a great idea. What a smart guy. Coach Hector is right not to take anything away from Coach Hector, but it's the exact same thing coming from a different, respected authority figure.

48:22 Right. And so we talk about this. I'll have guys, you know, we'll be sitting, Saturday morning up at the lodge having breakfast, and guys will be talking about, okay, these men of significance, how do I find them? I have no idea. Five of these guys. How am I going to go find him? And I, I tell him, you know, to calm down a little bit, push, pause.

48:41 But one of the other things is, the your son might have some guys that he thinks are those guys, and and it's important to understand this isn't, you know, we talk about it as a point of beginning, you know, and dad is stepping back and son is stepping forward, and we're shoulder to shoulder here. Now.

49:00 The sons not in the lead. You know, that's that's that completion. That's hey we're dropping you off at college or your new place or whatever. You're kind of in the lead here, right? Call me whenever you need backup. But until then, we're going through this together, and. And dad's still got a hand on the wheel, so to speak.

49:15 Dad's helping recruit these guys. For some people, you know, they come to this and they're like, I have no idea who. You know. Maybe their grandparents are dead or they're on the other side of the country. They don't quite know how to make that work. Others come and they've already got, you know, guys that they know have been in their son's life.

49:31 There's an uncle that lives, you know, half an hour away, and he's over every other weekend, or there's a, a youth pastor that's really invested. But across the board of the guys that I've worked with intentionally and closely, they've almost all said the same thing that the, you know, I don't know who said this, and it could be a Star Wars quote for all I know.

49:51 But, you know, when the when the student is ready, the teacher will appear, right? That same has almost always kind of proven to be true, whether it's, you know, you sharing how it just seemed like you the right core value to focus on became really, really obvious in the moment when you needed the next one or the right person to recruit for that.

50:12 Core value shows up, you know, in some kind of, just happenstance circumstance that that you almost can't believe. When we get intentional about this process as dads, we're looking for that, you know, we're looking for the moments, we're looking for the indicators that this is the guy. And so recruiting these men and understanding, you know, I've we actually have a, a page of, of information written out for dads to go through and understand before they recruit these guys.

50:46 We want them to help the guy they're asking understand this isn't a one and done kind of thing either. This isn't a, you know, casual show up. You know, we're going to go get a burger. And, you know, you're my my son's, man of significance kind of thing. You know, I feel like we've we've gotten away as a culture.

51:04 We used to have, like the idea of godparents. You know, we used to be real intentional when a child was born about picking the people that we were going to ask to be there for our children in the event that we couldn't. And we've kind of lost that, too. So these men of significance. These are these are guys that are, vetted and prepared and they understand what they're committing to.

51:27 And, you know, for a dad, it's an incredibly powerful, thing to understand that you've got those men looking out for your son. Imagine how powerful it is as your son gets closer and closer to 18 to recognize, my gosh, I've got these other guys that are committed in this way. That's a huge boost to, you know, not not just morale, like, you know, personal value and, and their, sense of purpose in the world to know that they've got other men that they look up to who are behind them, encouraging them and, you know, cheering them on, I agree, man, we need I think we need a tribe, you know, of these.

52:10 And when I say tribe, I mean the the 3 to 5 men that you're talking about. I think men need young men especially need community that are within their own age, that are good men. But I also think, and I'm sure you probably agree, that when the bar is set pretty high with these older, wiser men, whether it's a coach like Coach Hector, Coach Vito, whether it's grandpa, whether it's uncle, whether it's even, you know, trusted advisor, I was, you know, Mark Hildebrand, one of the coaches in the boardroom I was telling him about, you know, just some some challenges the Masons have in, in school right now.

52:48 And I was so refreshed because Mason knows Mark, but he doesn't know him well. But Mark even offered up. He's like, hey, man. Like, I'm happy to get on the call with Mason and just pour into him. And I was like, you know, it's like we, I, I feel like in a way, I take that for granted because I'm surrounded by guys like that.

53:06 But most men are not right. And I'm like, man, like, what a gift that is. That somebody that I respect, that I know operates with a ton of integrity, who is such an incredible teacher and teacher of life and a leader would, would be willing to get on a call with my son just to pour into him. And I think that's so needed.

53:25 I, I want to I, I just want to move as we segway to the end here. I want you to talk about just some of the logistics of I know we mentioned the dates. But I'd love to really just understand, like, what are the what are the dates? You know, men, I think, fly into bend, Oregon. What do they need to bring?

53:41 What should they expect? All these things just logistically. And what to how to prepare. Yeah. So, you know, as far as what to bring, really, you know, it's a seasonal thing as far as clothing goes. When, when part of why my family moved here to bend is because we really do get winter in a way that the place we lived before and ever did.

54:02 So, you know, some, some cold weather gear, we're pretty good about having, you know, a good selection of backup kind of stuff. But we try to make this as simple as possible for folks in that we we provide everything. If you want, you can fly in to Redmond, which is 30 minutes north of bend, the day of the event.

54:24 And, you know, when we talk with folks that will let them know the timeline, we'll pick you up at the airport, we'll get you to the lodge. And and you don't need to worry about anything. All the food's taken care of. Everything is covered. Transportation to the, you know, off site, and then we can take you back to the airport.

54:40 So really, it is a matter of the event starts on Wednesday. It ends on Saturday. We have a limited option for some men where they can stay an extra night and head home Sunday if they want. Join us up at the lodge. My family comes up when they get to talk a little bit with with, with them. I'm thinking on this next one, not only Zeke, but my son Jake is going to get to be there to be a part of it. And so it's a neat experience for those guys that want to hang around a little bit longer. The summer events in particular, we got guys that will come in early or stay late.

55:12 They'll add on a trip to Crater Lake or some of these other things. I know you've come early before and and seen some of the other dad edge guys that are in the area. Seems like we're growing a bit of a data edge community out here. We got some more people moving here soon. So, yeah, all that say, you know, packing list gets sent out, but but it really is pretty minimal.

55:34 What you need to bring, is that kind of what you're wondering? I mean, I think you probably remember that from your time out. We I do provide everything. Yeah. The only thing I didn't bring, which I'm bringing this time, is the waterproof. Waterproof winter pants. There you go. I had jeans, and they got. They got soaked in the snow.

55:52 That's true. I think we had a bunch of thermal, you know, stuff to go underneath, but not any extra snow pants. So, Yeah, you had quite a hike there. That was. That was a good snow year. I'm hoping we're going to have another good snow year for this winter event coming up. You know, one of the things I just want to tie back real quick, you said something about, you know, having one of the guys from the boardroom talk with your son.

56:18 That's intimacy right there. Right? And that's. That's the one that in our world, a lot of dads that get hung up on, they're not sure how to approach that. We got to talk with our kids, our young men, about sex. Right. But we also need to help them understand that intimacy isn't just sex. The fact that you've gone as deep as you have with Mark brought a level of comfort for you to let him talk with your son and and the willingness of him to go into a conversation like that showed that he was comfortable there, too.

56:46 That's where transformation happens. That's part of why we talk about an installation process versus an installation process. That's why we don't let people show up. You know, in a crisis mode. My son's 17. He's about to turn 18. He's going to graduate. Can I cram this through? No, you can't, because stuff that gets put on like that quickly, it's like bolting an accessory on a car.

57:08 You can just as easily unbolt it and then it's taken off. Right. But installation is another word I think goes back to a Latin root that talks about deep. Right. We're going into the cell. We're taking the time to get this deep inside. It doesn't easily come out. And that's what this process is about. I'm a Christian.

57:27 I know you are too. We there are lots of statistics about the number of of young people that leave their faith when they leave for college, right. It's it's that that very thing. It's very easy to just kind of unbolt it and drop it at the door. It wasn't theirs. They were tagging along with Mom and Dad. What dangerously good men in this installation process.

57:48 This 3D installation process is all about is getting this deep into their soul so that when they leave, when they're challenged, our young men not only know they have some other men ahead of them that are in their corner and that are are giving them an example to shoot for. They know how to be leaders. They know how to not be, pulled off track by exposure to new things or by an absence of the routines that used to support them and make it easy.

58:17 So, I know that's kind of a bit of a sidetrack from where where you had me going there, but, you know, I think it's important to understand this. This isn't, a quick and easy thing. We talk about making it simple, but not easy. And really, that's what the dangerous, the good men right of passage is seeking to do is take a very powerful, important concept and process.

58:44 And we simplify it out. For fathers, it's not easy. It's not quick, but it's so important that, that we think it's it's worth doing. I agree, I, I actually love that there was some that it was simple. It wasn't easy. I can attest to that. And but that's what I think gave it the elegance and the depth that it did.

59:07 I couldn't imagine trying to cram this in and like, I, I mean, I thought that, you know, the, the time of the time that I brought Mason was like the perfect amount of time. And I'm so I'm so excited to bring Lawson. And at the end, yeah, I'm excited to meet him. Yeah. He's a he's a bit of a replica of Mason.

59:25 Everybody says he looks exactly like Mason, so. But I think he's going to be huge. I think he's going to be our biggest one because he's, he's already getting tall and he's just he's just big. But, guys, if you want to join me, I'll be there at this event. We're going to have all the links in the show notes.

59:42 I know you can find more information about the event if you go to Dangerously Good Men. Com but, Bill, if if a man just wants to follow your work or if they want just even the other organizations that we talked about here on the podcast, what are some other ways that men could just find out more information about the other things that you're doing?

1:00:02 Yeah. So dangerous. Look good men. Com and then improving grounds.com. Those are the place to find all the information about the two organizations improving your com. You can sign up for the newsletter. We get information out. Really what that is aimed at is providing a resource to help men build community in their local community. So we talk about, you know, the, the, the, the overarching mission that is the same in the two organizations is that we're looking to transform the culture by helping men and the families they lead shift from lifestyle to legacy focused.

1:00:33 Right. And then inside of that, there's kind of these four seasons of of men. There's surviving, thriving, success and significance. And the improving grounds at that local level is really aimed at men who are thriving, helping men who are in that survival phase, you know, gather around the fire, share your struggles. There's been powerful things that have happened there.

1:00:54 The number of times we've had a couple different young men show up. They've got the ring in the pocket. They're ready to propose. What a powerful experience to have. 6 or 7 older men of all different ages shared the story of how they proposed and what it was like, and what marriage is like a new expect that. So we we create environments and opportunities there to help men get to that kind of first level of of success.

1:01:19 And then and that really happens in proximity. Right? That happens shoulder to shoulder around, you know, those those shared experiences. But dangerously good men is for those guys that have reached that and they're sensing the call. They know there's something more. And so, whether it's that call to initiate your son or with these benchmark adventures that we've done, that call to do some other things, we have some great things that we're developing service summits, opportunities for men from all over the country to gather together, provide some service, and have an adventure together.

1:01:53 Christy and I have been talking about developing some shared adventures for couples to go on. All throughout the country, experience some different things together. Powerful moments that are shared are transformational. That's where that liminal space kind of stuff comes in. And then, yeah. So they can sign up for recurring information there at either of those.

1:02:15 Like I said before, I wanted to give a code to your listeners first arrow. If you register for the January 2027 event with that code, you're going to get a free 90 minute call within two weeks of leaving the event. We believe in jumping on it, right? You're going to leave that event fired up. Excited. You're going to have a fistful of arrows, your son's going to have a quiver and you're going to be saying, what the heck do I do with this?

1:02:36 How do I make this happen? And, I want to get on a call and and just serve some more, give you a good start to that process. Trying to think anything else. So first arrow, is that all one word or is there a space? First arrow. All one word. Yep. First arrow. We want to help you get that first arrow underway.

1:02:56 I love that man. So, no, I think that I think that does it. Guys, we're going to have all the links in the show notes for you. You can go to the edge.com/1548i know we mentioned a lot of information a lot of different a lot you know obviously bills to two different organizations. So we're going to make it easy for you.

1:03:14 Like I said the date edge.com/1548. Really appreciate you guys chiming in today. For those of you guys who are raising young men in this liminal space, I would love to see you and meet you at this event because I will be there with Lawson and I can't wait. I mean, I've already been through this once. I'm. And now I'm just actually more excited for the second one because I know, I know kind of what to expect, but I'm really excited about it because I've seen I've seen how the this this is really created fruit and a connection and, you know, a mission accomplished in my own son's life with Mason.

1:03:47 So thanks again, Bill. I really appreciate you coming on, dude. Hey thank you Larry. I appreciate you being on here.