Why Stewardship Is Essential to Discipleship | Chris Goulard & Josh Howard

0:11 Hey guys, this is Josh Howard. We are here on site at the Spire Conference in Indianapolis this year. We're at Northview Church. I got my friend Chris Goulard with us. Chris and I met like in 2019 in Manchester, England at a conference, and we've been friends since. Uh, Chris is now helping out with financial planning ministries And has been honestly in the financial world for a long time as a strong Christian guy on staff at Saddleback before and now doing this. And so, Chris, I just wanted to have a quick convo with you, man. Thanks for hopping on for a few minutes. My pleasure. Yeah, uh, just really about— I mean, obviously financial stewardship is going to be a big piece of how we disciple people and how we ensure that

0:47 they're faithful stewards of what God's given them. And so I'd love for you, man, to share a little bit about, you know, with, with our listeners Uh, just how your ministry and what you're doing can really impact the disciple-making that they're doing within the church. Yeah, awesome. Well, first of all, let me just say that I believe very strongly that the way people handle their money is always going to impact their relationship with Christ. So right off the bat, that's a huge deal. One of the hard parts in church as we're talking to people and trying to help them to understand the role of stewards in the kingdom is how do we just engage the church in different ways to do that? Like, what Other than Sunday morning, what other ways can we do that?

1:24 And what we find is estate planning is one of those things that every family knows they need to do. It is the worst area for procrastination in all of finances. Like, we just see that all the time. And so the idea that a church can offer that and have people actually learn what that means, the church can also speak into that and say, you know, what does it mean to be a steward in God's kingdom?

1:45 Why, you know, cast vision for the church, those kinds of things. Um, and it's an opportunity, but then it actually— we can get it done for the family. Like, we'll actually do all of that for the family so they, they learn. There's an educational component to it, there's a discipleship component to it, but there's also the practical application where the family gets it done and is grateful for the church for offering it. Yeah, which is great. And honestly, like, we found in— as we've done disciple-making research at discipleship.org, right, when people are surrendering to Jesus, a lot of times their wallet's the last thing that gets surrendered, right?

2:16 So they're surrendering different parts of their heart, they're surrendering different aspects of their lives, but then when it comes to their billfold, it's kind of like that's going to be the last thing Jesus touches. Uh, when in all reality, Jesus makes it clear that where our treasure is, our heart is as well. Yeah. And so where our treasure is, our heart follows. And so that's going to be a huge piece, man. Like, with, with churches that are really passionate about disciple-making, uh, sometimes we unintentionally ignore the financial stewardship component of that because that's a hard conversation, right? Yeah. And so how would you recommend like churches go about it if they really want to disciple their

2:49 people well in stewardship and in that side of things? How can they do it without being accused of, you know, just being money hungry and going after the resources and all that stuff? 2 things. One is I think a leadership team in a church has to really understand this is a discipleship issue. This is not about raising money for the church. This is not about trying to get people to give more.

3:11 This is actually something you want for your people like any other area of health. I want my church to be— I want my people, my families to be relationally healthy. I want them to be, you know, mentally healthy, physically healthy, and financially healthy. Like, it's just one of those things that we want for them. And I would say, you know, honestly, when churches are trying to grow, one of the best things that they can do is connect into the Christian Stewardship Network because that's just a group of churches that are trying to figure out how to do it together, best practices, things like that, right? So there's a— that's just one place to do that.

3:42 But For me, it's not just about the pastor preaching it. It's really about trying to shift the culture of the church to incorporate it. You know, Jesus talked more about money. It was his second favorite topic after the kingdom of heaven, right? So he talked more about money than anything else other than the kingdom of heaven. And so why did he do that?

4:00 And I think he just knows we're hung up on that. I mean, you know, it affects marriages, it affects families. There's a lot of emotion behind it. It's something we all have to deal with. Yeah. And one of the things we unintentionally worship, we make it an idol. It's, it's something that we begin to pursue even more than our relationship with Jesus at times, right? And it's the, it's the thing that honestly, it's one of the main things that even causes divorce is financial issues, right? Yeah. So it is a real, a real thing that if we don't talk about it and discuss it, especially within the disciple-making world, uh, then it's going to continue to be an issue for our people whether we talk about it or not, right? Well, I, to me, I, you know, one of

4:39 the parables I love to point to is the, this, the parable of the soils, the seeds in the soils in Mark 4. Yeah. And I think when we were in England, actually, you preached. Did I talk about that? I think you did. It's one of my favorite ones. All right. So here's the deal. So in the parable of the seeds, right, you know, there's the 4 seeds, right? And the disciples kind of— yeah. Well, sorry, the seed in the 4 soils. And the disciples hear him say it, and then they're like, wait, we don't get that. And then Jesus explains it, and he comes back and he says, look, The third seed is choked out. So there's the deceitfulness of wealth, the desire for other things, and the cares of this world are the things that

5:13 choke it out. Well, in my mind, when you go, okay, Jesus literally points at 3 things that are choking out the word. So what we want is our people to be 30, 60, 100 times fruitful, right? What's stopping the Joneses who sit in row 4 week after week after week and they're not growing? They're not really growing as disciples in Christ.

5:29 It's not evident in their life. Like, what's happening? And Jesus says there's 3 things: the cares of this world. Okay, well, money is one of those big things. Absolutely. The deceitfulness of wealth, that's very much a stewardship issue. Desire for other things. Well, in the Old Testament, we would call that covetousness.

5:46 Now you might say, okay, materialism. Yeah, those kinds of things. But it's still, again, it's a stewardship issue. So 2 and a— give me 2 and a half maybe out of the 3 things Jesus said are stewardship related. And I think To me, that ought to say to a pastor, like, we got to deal with this. Like, we've got to help people deal with the weeds in their lives so that they can be fruitful. Yeah. Well, and out of all the soils, I mean, if you look at the US church right now or just the US landscape, like not just the church, but the US landscape, that third soil is going to be the main soil that we're sowing into. Yes. 100%. So, I mean, the thorns and the weeds in the US culture just with distraction

6:28 and busyness and money and popularity and all these things, that's going to be the thing that chokes it out, right? Well, and that third seed, those are people in the church. Like, let's be really clear. Yeah, that seed is in, it's planted. They're in the church, it's growing. They've heard the word, right? But it's choking out, right?

6:44 And so we got to deal with that. That's good, man. And so to me, I think money is probably the greatest barrier between people and Jesus in our world today. Yeah. So why are we not talking about it, right? Here's the other thing. From an evangelism standpoint, what are the, what are the big issues? What are the felt needs that families have that can bring people in? I'm talking about people that don't go to church, right? What are the things that are going to bring people in that we can offer as a church? I'll tell you the big 3: parenting, marriage, finances. Yeah, we should be doing— we should be having parenting classes in the church. We should be having financial classes in the church. Why? Because your

7:19 neighbors, yeah, well, they may not say, you know, they might say, Josh, I don't really want to come to church. I'm not a church guy. Yeah, but hey, would you like to come to a parenting class? We can help you. Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. Okay, sure. Yeah, yeah, you know, those kind of things, financial classes. So it's a safe place to come learn. Yeah. And to me, the church should be the place where that can happen. Yeah, that's beautiful, man.

7:38 And, and to go back to the soils, I mean, the reality is, guys, what Chris is saying is that like literally when we're planting the seeds of the gospel and we're trying to make disciples, because I know everybody watching our aspirations— no church out there is going to say, we don't really want to make disciples. Like, that's not— I hope not. Yeah, right. We're all aspirationally wanting to make disciples. The truth is a lot of us just aren't getting the fruit out of that that we hope for.

8:03 And the reality is it's because it's that seed is being unintentionally choked out by all the stuff around us. And man, if we're not helping kind of weed out what that is looking like and help take the thorns out and help people really deal with that early, then we're not going to see the fruit that we hope for within our disciple-making, right? Well, I honestly, I don't think you can have a healthy discipleship process in a church without stewardship being a big part of it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, yeah, well, 100%.

8:30 And, and the reality is, this isn't like you said, this isn't just about how, how can we get our people to give as much money to us as a church as possible. This goes down to a root discipleship issue, and that is joyful generosity, right? Like, disciples of Jesus are joyfully generous with their resources, and not just with their money, but with their time, with their energy, with their talents. Like, they are joyfully giving for the sake of kingdom expansion. And yeah, that absolutely can help bless our churches, but that's gonna help bless the kingdom at large if we are people who just live generously all the time, right? Well, stewardship is an identity issue. It's part of my identity in Christ is being a steward in God's kingdom, right? When I understand

9:10 that, when I embrace it, stewardship is the key that unlocks generosity. 'Cause once I understand that it's really not mine, it's God's anyway, Now that allows me to go, okay, Lord, it's yours. What do you want me to do with it? Yeah, that totally changes the conversation. Yeah. And yet most pastors, they want to talk about giving. They want to tell people to be generous. But the way to get them to be generous is actually the understanding that I'm a steward in God's kingdom. Yeah, right. To help me to release it and say that it's not mine.

9:35 Yeah, that's beautiful, man. That idea of stewardship, like a lot of times when we go through our identity in Christ, rarely do we add that line as I am a steward, right? It's usually I'm a son or daughter of God, which are all true. All these are true. But the idea of being a steward, that nothing I have is mine, it's all his, and I'm going to use it for the sake of the kingdom, man. I mean, how amazing would it be if every disciple of Jesus truly had the identity that none of this is mine, it's all his, and I'm going to leverage every bit of who I am and what I have for the sake of the kingdom and to glorify Jesus. Yeah. What a beautiful life to live as a disciple of Jesus.

10:16 Absolutely. Yeah. Well, you were sort of quoting Martin Luther earlier, almost like, you know, to be truly converted, you got to go through a conversion of the head, conversion of the heart, and conversion of the pocketbook. Right. Right. So that's that third one. It's the actualization of your, of your relationship with God.

10:30 Right. So I understand it. I believe it. And now I live it. Yeah. Right. That's, that's the head, heart, hands. Yeah. And this is how we live it out. Yeah. That's good, dude. So if our listeners, man, want help in this, or if they want to try to reach out to you or somebody on your team, What would be the best way for them to do that? Well, first of all, if you're interested in estate planning at your church, reach out to me at chris@fpm.org. If you're interested in the Christian Stewardship Network, just to connect with other churches, it's christianstewardshipnetwork.com.

10:59 You can just, there's tons of information there. I mean, honestly, I feel like almost every church in America ought to be a member of CSN just to connect with other churches and learn how to do this well. Yeah, that's awesome, dude. Thank you for your time, brother. This has been awesome. Listen, guys, let me just at the end here as we're wrapping up, Um, I just want you to take a moment at the end as you're listening or watching this just to think about a couple things. Uh, number one, anytime we hear stuff like this, first and foremost, we've got to look at the man or the woman in the mirror first before we start preaching and teaching. And so we've got to ask ourselves, and, and you and I have to ask the same thing, am I being a

11:33 good steward of what God's given me? Am I living a joyfully generous life? And/or am I pursuing the deceitfulness of wealth or the uh, the power and the authority that I can get through earthly things, or am I truly surrendering as a disciple of Jesus to his lordship over every area of my life? Is he king not only of your heart and mind but also your pocketbook, right? And then secondly, are we helping our people and having those straightforward conversations in our churches to say, hey, listen, part of discipleship is living a generous life? And so what does it look like if we truly want to follow Jesus? Living more generously every year or every day of our lives so that we can truly bring Jesus

12:14 the most glory possible. Yeah, I love it. So guys, let's, let's get out there. Let's be the best stewards we can and to help our people become disciples who can go make more disciples. Uh, this is us right here at the Spire Conference at discipleship.org. We love you guys, and, uh, we can't wait to see what God does through you next. We'll see. Take care.