5 YRS AGO DYNAMITE POST-SHOW: Did Cody’s plea to be cheered backfire? Did Halloween theme main event work? On-site report, mailbag, callers

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1:35 Now, PW Torch brings you the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show.

1:44 Five years ago this week on the AEW Dynamite Post Show, I was joined by ProWrestling.net's Jake Barnett to talk about that night's episode with live callers. And respond to mailbag questions. We also had an on-site correspondent present at the show. Talk with us about their experience there. We asked whether Cody Rhodes' plea for the fans to cheer him backfired.

2:05 Whether the Halloween costumes in the main event was counterproductive for AEW's world title program. Praise for Serena Deeb against Hikaru Shida. Thoughts on MGS promo, Jon Moxley's trajectory, and more. The on-site correspondent, by the way, detailed the tapings for Rampage, but also details on Tony Khan's appearance and the crowd responses throughout. This originally live-streamed on October 27th, 2021. It's today's Wade Keller Pro Wrestling post-show five years ago. Dynamite flashback for Sunday, October 25th, 2026. So Jake, did what Cody attempted to do backfire today? move him a step in the right direction, but it remains to be seen if it will work or work really well. It was pretty clear what he was going for there, unless he

2:52 tricked me and it was an attempt to turn further heel while insisting he wouldn't. What would you think?

2:57 My instant reaction is that he's clearly committed to not turning heel. And I think he laid out his own personal case for it, but I couldn't get over the fact that the biggest pops in his promos were from his other family members.

3:16 They weren't even for him.

3:18 And so I keep thinking, is the crowd really reacting and believing in Cody? Or is he just saying the right buzzwords in a configuration that he knows will pop an audience? Because he didn't really convince everybody. There were still boos in that crowd. even at the end and so i think they have.

3:39 Some work ahead of them and.

3:41 I don't think they've done themselves any favors with with the storytelling thus far this seems like a move that was just born out of stubbornness like they're just adding more pieces to this story to try to make up for the fact that cody just isn't getting the reaction they want.

3:58 Yeah it is entirely possible that a crowd will uh boo cody's opponents and cheer his partner and still boo cody Um, it's, it's fascinating. I mean, it's, it's, it's a fun twist. I think Cody is a little shell shocked and I think it felt, I mean, one of my issues with Cody is how meta he goes almost every time he talks, you know, I mean, how many times has he, you know, plugged a paper match by going, well, here's in the promo where I'm supposed to plug a paper here. I'm supposed to plug out my match and get you people excited to watch my match. It's like, I think that's one of the things that's backfiring is I think people want him to just And I talked about this with Jason Powell on the flagship yesterday. They

4:40 just want him to be a wrestler, not referencing being an executive vice president while pretending that doesn't matter or claiming it doesn't matter, not having this pompous, grandiose, over-the-top ring entrance, not referencing his wife in a way that is self-deprecating, that supposedly makes it okay, or sort of offsets the sense of nepotism and self lack of qualification that she has for the positions that she has that affects him. And then he can say, I'm not going to be Hollywood anymore, but what does that mean? He didn't follow that up by saying, I'm going to be here every week wrestling for the next year. I've canceled two projects I had going. And I love my daughter, but I'll see her every day of the week, except Monday, Friday,

5:23 and some Saturdays. Like he didn't, it was more like blips.

5:27 What does go Hollywood mean in this context? He filmed the go big show. I mean, I know it, It does fairly well for TNT, but is that really going Hollywood in this case? I guess the other part of this is he seems a little obsessed about his legacy for a guy who's 36 years old. Isn't that something that you start thinking about when you're near retirement? I would think just based on the longevity of wrestlers in this era, he's got at least five or six good years left in the ring. unless his health is worse than, than I imagine it is. And so I think along with what you're saying about, you know, his constant delve into meta narrative and including the word narrative this week.

6:17 Yeah.

6:17 And shifting between Cody, the EVP and the onscreen character, and now seemingly trying to blend the two into his onscreen persona. I, I think he's sort of outsmarted himself in a way to where he doesn't really know what character he's playing week to week because it's not the same guy every promo.

6:39 It really isn't.

6:40 No, no.

6:41 And that's why I say, like, I think this... I understand why he did this promo. And there's part of me that admires him for just going, I'm going to go out there and I'm going to speak my truth. And I think, you know, I mean, people roll their eyes when they hear my truth and I don't mean it in that way. But he... He did. Like, he's like, hey, you can cheer the guy who signs the checks, Tony Khan, but remember who built the bank? Me, the all-in guy.

7:08 And there's something to it. And I think there's part of Cody that's just genuinely hurt and sort of offended and shell-shocked and blindsided by fans turning against him. And so... And I think he's a good guy. I don't think people are booing him because they think in real life he's a bad guy, but I think what Cody's missing is that they're not booing him because fans think he's a bad guy who doesn't deserve credit for AEW. I mean, it's a lot of things, but I think they're booing him because of a lot of choices Cody has made the last couple of years in terms of his character and And I just don't know that he's been listening or surrounding himself with people who will speak truth to the EVP. Maybe– I don't want to speak for the–

7:56 I mean I can't possibly speak for everybody who follows AEW. But I mean to me, it really boils down to sort of an intolerable lack of self-awareness at times.

8:08 Yes, yes.

8:09 And it's not that I don't think Cody is a good person.

8:13 I don't know him.

8:15 It's not a personal issue. It's just the character on screen doesn't seem to match with the kind of things that he's talking about behind the scenes. And now you're trying to merge those two characters into one, and I don't think there's enough self-awareness in the booking to display that he's ready to do that. And I think the promo tonight sort of showed his own level of confusion and bewilderment about what's happening to him.

8:45 And to me, you can take.

8:48 That and you can really hammer on it, and I'm sure they will in the coming weeks to try to find a way to get themselves out of this mess of a character situation. But I think until he acknowledges that it's some of his own bad decision making that got him here in regards to his character. I don't know that this is necessarily going to get fixed because there's still going to be that part of the audience that saw him walk to the ring in Brooklyn with a 50-foot train behind his outfit and act like it was a babyface thing to do. I think there is a lack of awareness that has compiled itself into people being just kind of sick of him.

9:27 Absolutely. And I think though he was off to a bad start, When he's coming out there, one of the biggest things is the self-awareness, the sense of a lack of self-awareness. And if he wanted to speak to the fans and have the words he was saying resonate and land where he wanted them to, maybe drop the over-the-top, grandiose, pompous entrance and the two different music things and being raised up from the floor and through the stage Like, just walk to the ring. You know, you can maybe come out to just your theme music, no pyro. You know, maybe we go that far and no fancy jacket or just march to the ring and go, let's talk. And instead, he had all the stuff that he is unselfaware has contributed to people looking at him as... again, I don't

10:20 know if there's a perfect adjective. It's not like a diva or a prima donna, but it's, it's just something that the fans aren't relating to. And I think they see in the way he presents himself aspects of other wrestlers who had positions of power or were just pushed in favor by the promoter. And again, you know, Brandy isn't helping and that doesn't seem like it's, it seems like that's a non-negotiable. Um, So I don't know.

10:46 But I think he alluded to that, though, didn't he? With talking about, I was going to hit the other move that everybody assumed he was going to hit. Instead of the tiger driver, alluding to the pedigree in Triple H and his vendetta, not-so-vendetta against the guy. That goes all the way back to him smashing that monument at a pay-per-view.

11:08 And so I guess....

11:12 I don't know if there's a perfect solution to the Cody issue, but I think what people are asking for is for him to humble himself in some way. And I don't know that he's done that thus far.

11:21 Yeah. We have some strong points of view via email that we'll get to on Cody as the show progresses. We welcome our West Coast listeners who had a chance to watch Dynamite Live, some of whom might not have before, just based on the new TNT NHL schedule where the NHL is following NHL games are following Dynamite now, and so they made a mention of that on the air.

11:44 So we'd love to hear from some new people who just watched Dynamite live on the West Coast and are able to participate by phone call. So let's pause and introduce ourselves. We've got so much more to talk about on this show. This is the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show for Wednesday, October 27, 2021. I'm Wade Keller, the editor, publisher, founder of the Pro Wrestling Torch weekly newsletter, pwtorch.com, the website. and also host of various podcasts, including this, the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show, the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast, and also some VIP shows like The Fix with Todd Martin, Everything with Rich Fan, Post-Pay-Per-View Roundtables, and the daily Wade Keller Hotline. And I thank you

12:20 for joining us today, whether you're live streaming the show at wadekellerpostshow.com, or if you've downloaded the show and are listening to us on demand on your podcast app or through our website, either way, thank you. Like Cody, we love you guys. Thank you for supporting us and listening. The other voice you hear is Jake Barnett from ProWrestling.net joining me as co-host this week. Jake, great to have you back. Yeah, it was a pleasure, Wade. Thanks for inviting me. Yep, so people can read your work at ProWrestling.net, Jason Paul's website. Jason Paul is my co-host on the Tuesday flagship edition of the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast yesterday.

13:00 Really fun discussion, by the way, on Cody and Brandy. The season finale erodes to the top and a lot more on just kind of big picture Cody. And, and we, we, unlike tonight, yesterday we were dissecting the story that Cody told on roads to the top. Not that tonight was entirely different, but tonight was very much a follow-up on that.

13:20 But you could see in the reality show, which Cody has some, you know, considerable sway over how he's presented. You know, the fans booing him was one of the central themes of, of that reality show. And they tried to tell a story arc that, you know, played out kind of ironically with him being booed on Dynamite at the end of Dynamite against Malachi Black when he got his redemption, which was supposed to be huge crowd pop, as Cody imagined it in his head months ago. And instead he was booed and then, you know, Roast to the Top aired and he talked about how, you know, had people saying if he gets booed, this is terrible for him and that kind of thing. So quite the interesting story. So we'll get into that and everything else

14:01 on Dynamite. Jake, tell people more about what you do for ProWrestling.net. Yes, I cover Dynamite on a weekly basis.

14:12 You can catch my reports live as the show airs on Wednesday nights. And I also join Jason Powell on a weekly basis for the.

14:22 NET weekly audio show for. NET members.

14:24 And I'm also a part of the pay-per-view review audio shows with Jason as well. So you can find all that over at ProWrestling.net.

14:32 Excellent, excellent. Your time is valuable. Go VIP and listen to our shows commercial free. A nice streamlined listening experience. pwtorch.com slash go VIP for full details on a commercial free listening experience. And with a full VIP membership, you can create custom feeds for individual shows or groups of shows by theme and also unlock nearly four decades of archives and access our ad free website with VIP exclusive content. pwtorch.com slash govip. Your time is valuable, and that's one of the reasons we offer VIP membership, pwtorch.com slash govip. We could talk more. I want to get right into phone calls so people don't have to hold too long. Our phone number, if you want to give us a call,

15:20 if you haven't yet, is 347-215-8558. That's 347-215-8558. When you call, please push 1 on your keypad, and that will flag you. And if you don't push 1, we will just consider you a listener in the background and not bring you out of the show. So when you call, you've got to push 1 to flag yourself. You can also email us if that's easier for you. You can email during the show or during the wrestling show itself or during the post show. And we'll get to some emails later.

15:53 That email address is WadeKellerPodcast at PWTorch.com. WadeKellerPodcast at PWTorch.com. Let's see. Anything else I want to mention? Oh, follow me on Twitter at TheWadeKeller. That's at TheWadeKeller. Follow our brand on Twitter at PWTorch. And Jake, I know the website Twitter is at ProWrestlingNet.com. How about your personal Twitter account that people would follow? Yeah, you can find me at Barnett Jake with two Ts. Sounds good. All right, let's begin phone calls here. And we'll begin with Chris in Newfoundland. Chris, this is you.

16:34 It's me.

16:35 Evening, gentlemen.

16:35 How are we doing?

16:36 Good, good.

16:36 Good to hear from you. Yeah, so what stood out on Dynamite? What do you want to talk about?

16:42 All right, without belaboring the point too much on Cody. I thought last week the pedigree tease was very deliberate, and when he, even the fact that he lifted him up for the tiger driver, sort of elevating his victim instead of burying them with a pedigree, that's some real on-the-canvas stuff that I will leave to other podcasts that you should all be listening to. But tonight, I don't know, I think we saw that, Fans hate the Cody character, but still have a lot of respect for Cody Reynolds, the person. Because the line about who built the bank did get a very genuine and very significant applause and even cheers. And then they just went right back to booing the character again. So I think there's something to

17:35 build on there. Is this the foundation for a heel turn?

17:38 Maybe.

17:38 I kind of think it has to happen eventually. But I think there's something salvageable out of this. I don't think they just fully hate the guy. I don't know what you think.

17:47 Of that one, though. I mean, Jake, does this inevitably have to lead to Cody turning heel? Does he have too much pride to actually go heel when he's outright saying he is not going heel? And you people are wrong to boo me. And if you boo the narrative, you're forgetting the big picture, and we're going to continue– to present me within the narrative as a baby face. And, you know, at some point y'all ought to, y'all ought to just stop your booing and cheer me. I mean, is that kind of the bottom line of what you heard?

18:16 And is that, does that have a chance to work? I'm not ruling out that won't work because I think Chris is onto something. I think there's a way to drop some, plant some seeds, which Cody was certainly trying to do to say, you know, think about this and think about this and sleep on it. And maybe you want to reconsider trying to force me to turn heel because I'm not one of those, one of those people that you're, you know, normally boo when you're not supposed to.

18:38 Yeah, I guess it's reminiscent of John Cena over the years in terms of just the stubbornness about turning heel. And I think in retrospect, looking back at the long run of John Cena, I think they made the right call. But he's a very different type of personality than Cody is. And I think if you're dead set against a heel turn, whether it's his personal feelings on the subject or he just won't go along with it for whatever narrative reason, then I think the other option is for him to take some time away from the camera and then spend some time off TV and Use platforms like social media and YouTube and other things to do some additional rehabilitation of the guy. And then you might be able to reintroduce him as a baby face again after people have

19:39 had a chance to sort of reevaluate. But I don't know if– we're talking about people not liking Cody, the character, and and actually liking him as a person. But if he's, you know, if his stubbornness is around not changing that character, then I don't, you know, you're kind of in a paradox, right? There's really no, there's no way out of that situation.

20:02 And so I, I guess my, my advice would be if he's really not going to turn heel and he has no.

20:10 And he has the ability.

20:11 And the stroke backstage to prevent that from happening, then you've got to pull him away from TV because he's just not going to get the reaction you're looking for.

20:19 Part of me is wondering if tonight wasn't Tony going, sure, give it a try, and then we'll see how the crowd reacts. And then whether that means there's a fork in the road, depending on crowd response, Cody, this is your last chance tonight, or if they're going to kind of take it through, say, full gear. and kind of see where the landing place is. But, you know, ultimately Tony Khan didn't make Cody, you know, 50% co-owner despite building the bank. You know, you can build a bank and, but Tony Khan's the one who, you know, has the gigantic account in it that, that makes all the decisions ultimately.

20:56 And so I'm, I'm, I'm curious if part of this was all right, give it your best shot. You know, Cody, we're going to be fine either way with in the end, perhaps if the crowd boos, Tony's going to insist or, or, work hard to get Cody to, to agree to turn heel. I, I, I don't know at all if that's the case, but it would shock me if this wasn't just Tony going, all right, give it a try. We'll see. But it's Tony's call, not Cody's. And I, you know, ultimately I think he's got to respect that even if he, as he put it, built the bank.

21:22 Yeah.

21:23 And I guess the, the aspect of this that's the most confusing to me is you have, you've had this really popular act in Malachi Black that's been associated with Cody now for a couple of months. And, and, I don't know if they've done him any favors from a narrative standpoint with this story. And now you're taking two other characters that I think, for the most part, people want to enjoy. I don't know if they've had the opportunity to enjoy them as much as they'd want to.

21:52 In Andrade and Pac.

21:54 And you're sort of hooking them up to Cody's wagon, so to speak, to try and change the structure of this story. And the question for me is... Are they going to lift him up, or is he going to drag them down? And I don't know the answer to that. It really depends on how stubborn they are with this story.

22:15 Yeah, yeah, I agree. All right.

22:20 Hey, everyone. Longtime PWTorch columnist Sean Radican here to let you know I've revamped and renewed the Radican Worldwide Podcast for 2026. a weekly VIP exclusive. Every week, I break down four or five of the biggest trending topics in pro wrestling. I also present my analysis, providing insight that helps you understand the story better or see it another way than maybe is the controversial take out there. Then I bring on a special guest for the second half of the podcast. Sometimes it's a wrestler or someone else who works in the business. Other times it's a guest analyst who brings their specialized point of view on a particular key topic in the news. Recent guests have included Bronson Reed from WWE and PCO. One of my areas

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23:34 Thank you, Chris, in Newfoundland. Any follow-up on that?

23:44 No, I'm sure lots of other people will have something to chip in on that, but I do have another point or two if there's time.

23:50 Okay.

23:51 Let's talk the main event for a minute. I made the mistake this week of watching BTE, and it was 15 minutes long, and I want those 25 minutes of my life back. It's just– I don't even have words. But I think there's a lot that– I think they've learned their lesson about putting storylines uniquely on there because the main event, there was some stuff that tied in, but it didn't really– ruin the match if you didn't know anything about it. A couple things that did stand out to me. I did enjoy the costumes. I'd really tried not to, but I did, especially Grayson looked awesome, as Kratos, I have to say.

24:32 He's the only guy with a cool costume among everybody.

24:34 But yeah.

24:36 I mean, Colt kind of did it for me, too. I really enjoyed Colt Cabana as Brandon.

24:41 I was second-guessing myself as I said it was Colt, but yeah, go ahead. It's a good point. I'm with you, I guess.

24:48 I'm trying to do this as delicately as possible. Last week, I thought JR was the best JR I've heard on Dynamite since he's been there. He was on his game. He was snappy. His comments made sense. He was adding to the conversation. And with all the news he's had over the past week or 10 days or whatever it is with his cancer diagnosis, he seems to have just upped his game since then. And I don't know if the two are related, if he's just got a different attitude now. But he was so done with that main event. Oh, my goodness. He called them these idiots. And then from that point on, he could not have cared less if or what. I had a line. It was a great line.

25:35 It was the guy from Oklahoma who he talks about with the grip strength. And I've completely forgotten his name. Oh, God, the old wrestler that was a junior heavyweight champion in the NWA.

25:45 Danny Hodge, I think you're referring to?

25:47 That's the one, yeah. If Danny Hodge had come back and fought Dr. Death in the middle of that ring, in the middle of the main event, JR would not have cared. He was so done.

25:59 Yeah.

26:01 I don't even know. I feel really bad for the guy. He's the voice of most of our early wrestling fandoms. And he's done so well. But can he keep just completely burying main events like that?

26:17 So, Chris, let me ask you this, though, because I'm not quite sure which direction you're going. Maybe I've got a hint in the last 10 seconds or so. Are you down on Ross for that? Or are you cheering Ross because, like you said about being the elite, it's so ridiculous. You need your lead announcer who is trying to sell the credible stuff to have the credibility. to convey how silly he finds all this, and that's sort of on brand for JR and doesn't really ruin Dark Order and the Elite because they know they're ridiculous.

26:43 So it's a little tricky because six months ago or a year ago, before Tony Khan seized complete control, that match would have been way more ridiculous. I don't think they did anything, even the proton pack spot, a little contrived, but it didn't take me out of the moment. It's a Halloween episode. The match didn't really have any larger ramifications.

27:07 I was fine with it. But this is the main event that's building your main angle for your next pay-per-view. You've got the two top stars right now, single stars in the company, involved in the match. And your main voice, the voice that is supposed to make people who are channel surfing stop and listen, is acting like this is the worst thing he's ever seen on TV.

27:29 So....

27:31 I'm not a huge fan of the overdone Young Bucks, Lucha Brothers style. I've mentioned that before. I didn't think this was a situation where that went too far. I understand where JR is coming from, but sometimes he goes a little too far down Cornette Boulevard, and he needs to pull that back because it's going to take the casual viewer who stops to hear what JR is talking about completely out of the picture.

27:57 Sure. Jake, I'll throw to you first on that.

28:00 Yeah, I guess I also picked up on JR's despondency with the match and the costumes and the proton packs in particular. I guess my personal take on it is that I kind of appreciated him calling out how stupid it was because you have really one of the heaviest programs in AEW with Hangman Page losing his confidence in himself.

28:30 slipping into addiction Kenny Omega's constant torment about those things a very well done promo by Hangman Page I guess it would be about 10 days ago on the first Saturday Dynamite that really sent home the idea that he had finally started to put those demons behind him and this is one of the follow ups to that and I don't think it was very congruent with the the gravity of the program that they're trying to sell at full gear and i'm i'm kind of happy that jr had the sense to point that out on commentary with about how ridiculous it came across and i'm not saying that the program is doomed or or you know this this wasn't entertaining i think it was both of the you know it's it was entertaining but i i don't

29:21 know that it really fits into the rest of the puzzle of the story that they're trying to tell If.

29:25 It weren't for Cody, my opening question on the show to you, Jake, might have been, would AW have been better off at this point after two plus years if Dark Order was something Tony Khan said no to from day one? and you know whoever stuck around were recast in different ways but dark orders wasn't a group um and you know johnny wasn't a character and they weren't do you know all this stuff like and and yes um i'm not saying wrestling can't have comedy i'm you know, I'm not sure how effective Dark Order is in their attempts to be that, but for me, it's not usually my thing. The vast majority of the time, there's been a few moments here and there that have worked for me, but you know, it's over with the crowd. So it

30:13 kind of gets to, as I kind of, you know, journey through my thoughts on, on this and that question, whether it'd be better off without them. I think they are a symptom of, of a mentality and, and mindset of, of, and, and, editorial tone that certain people with influence have so there's that but if you're gonna have them around no matter where you fall on on it having them still mixing with hangman page and so close to full gear doing a comedy holiday themed nonsense match that even jim ross can't quote be professional enough to act like he can stomach um i just It's a sign to me of a lack of just, I don't know. It's probably not a lack of vision. It's just me disagreeing with their vision.

31:06 But it's what you said, Jake. Do you really want your promo or your top program with that great promo from Hangman being followed up as it was last Saturday with him discussing Halloween costumes of Dark Order and now being Marshmallow Man? A well-done swerve, you know? I mean, I can see they sat down and thought this would work, but it's already tough with Kenny being such a flake and a goof to be your world champion. And it does feel like this program is kind of pulling down something that could have had more prestige and emotional resonance and felt more important. So, yeah, I mean, I watched this and I was like, eh, this is not what you should be building your world title program around a

31:46 couple weeks before the pay-per-view, which is where we are now.

31:50 Chris, that's just, oh, go ahead, Jay. No, no, Jay, I was trying to wait and see who jumped in. Yeah, I think that's kind of where I landed on it, too. It just didn't fit with where I imagined the program was going. And I'm not saying that they can't recover from it. You know, it's just, it speaks to, as you said, you know, there is a vision, you know, and I constantly hear people, you know, on social media and, you know, even, you know, other podcasters that I'm, I'm friends with, talk about how they feel that Adam Page and Kenny Omega is the best long-term program in wrestling over the last couple of years.

32:28 And I.

32:31 Can pick that apart if you want, but to me, it's moments like this or Page spending so many months kind of listlessly paddling around with the Dark Order or randomly ending up with a pay-per-view match against Brian Cage because they had to find a way to shuffle him away from being the number one contender or, you know, things along those lines where it's like, is it really long-term storytelling or is it, you know, they wanted to work back to something but they've just been playing it by ear for 12 or 18 months because of the pandemic.

33:03 And so I.

33:04 To me, this is the kind of thing where it's like, I thought they had put the thing back on the track with that Hangman program, and now I'm not so sure.

33:12 That's kind of where I'm at. Yeah, that Hangman promo brought everything together. You know, it was just like, yes. I mean, that was one of the best babyface promos that I've heard in a long time.

33:24 It might be the best AEW babyface promo, period, since the company's inception. I mean, it's very close to it, if not the best one. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it was a.

33:35 Important sounding top tier, all encompassing, let's bring everything full circle promo. And the follow-up on it makes me feel it was more an accident than a master plan or their idea of a master plan is, is, you know, I just, I highly question the strategy. It's next-level coverage that you come to expect from the PW Torch brand.

33:55 No AI, no rookie perspectives, no unfounded rumors, no clickbait, no deceptive headlines, just high-quality writing, breaking news, and fascinating flashbacks every day at pwtorch.com. Pull yourself away from the vacuous social media experience that I know many of you regret once you get lost in it for minutes, if not hours at a time, and settle in for high-quality PW Torch-branded wrestling coverage. Chris, I'll throw back to you for any follow-up on what Jake and.

34:25 I have said.

34:26 Yeah, just quickly. I think both sides can be true. I think your point about this is not really what you wanted from such a serious angle with probably the best promo of the year, if not the existence of AEW, like you said. But I also think that there is a way that JR can express that this is silly and I'm not a fan of it without– going completely down the other side of the coin again. I'm mixing so many metaphors.

34:52 We allow that.

34:52 He can say I'm not a fan without burying it six feet under. He ruined it to the point that if he does his job and a wrestling fan from 20 years ago hears JR's voice and stops and then hears JR flagging off the main event, they're going to switch off again. And if he doesn't do that, if he just throws in the odd comment of derision and argument with the referee, people are going to stick around.

35:21 It's a Halloween-themed episode. I tend to give those a little more leeway personally because you want to sort of get involved with the spirit of the holiday and everything. the swerve of Hangman, I thought was pretty well done. Like if that wasn't costume suits, if it was cameraman or some other thing that wasn't themed, I think people would have less of an issue with it. So I'm a little more, I want to give a little more leeway on that, but I do hear where you're going.

35:47 And I agree with that perspective as well.

35:51 Chris, pause for one sec, because I don't think we adequately addressed the Jim Ross aspect of it. Jake, what, what did you think of what, you know, the crux of Chris's point, which is, Yeah, or there's two points, and the other is, you know, Jim Ross, like, your job is to put over what the bookers put out there.

36:06 And in a sense, you're like, you know, I'll use a Jim Ross analogy. You're an assistant coach, and you might not like your head coach's game plan, but your job is to execute it as best you can. And I think wrestling announcers, especially with Jim Ross's, you know, credibility and history and the status that he has, the stature that he has, you know, it should be, okay, I disagree with the head coach statement, But I'm an assistant coach here in terms of trying to get this angle over. What can I do to help? And you can only go so far before you feel like, well, I'm mortgaging my credibility or no one's going to buy it and I'll come across as a shill. And I get that. And maybe that's his perspective. Where are you

36:41 on that?

36:42 Well, I think there were a couple of points in the match where he was a bit over the top with his disgust. There was a point in the match where he was talking about how The elite essentially run this place, alluding to Kenny and the Young Bucks being EVPs and how they essentially get to overrule the referee and make up their own rules for their matches, and there's no consequences for it. And I think that's his long-running issue with the way that these multi-man tag matches function, where the referee is essentially just there to count pins and there's no rules enforced. And if his goal was to be disgusted with the heels, okay, I get that.

37:26 But it seemed like.

37:27 He was just more disgusted with the format of the match. And maybe the answer to that is he just sits out rather than airing his grievances on live television. And maybe that's something that Tony Khan can impress upon him. Because I think in those moments, if Excalibur is willing to do the job that JR won't, then maybe he should just be the voice you hear.

37:48 Yeah, yeah.

37:51 Did it sound to you, Jake, like they were mostly losing the crowd during some of this until the Hangman Page reveal and then they kind of got them back in? Because it went from a, you know, oh, funny comedy, you know, being the elite self-indulgent thing to, oh, this is a guy we like. And he just pulled off an effective swerve on the heels. And now we're kind of back into it. That was what I sensed was the ebb and flow of kind of the crowd reaction to what was happening.

38:20 I think some of the hot tag moments actually did start to win the crowd back. John Silver got a couple of pretty good pops for his hot tag running around the ring, hitting his offense. Colt Cabana did at various points. But I think when the elite were on offense and it was just that self-indulgent, over-the-top comedy character stuff, I think that Part of the match probably did start losing the crowd, but you're right. They were able to pull them back in with Hangman, and I think that just speaks to the connection that he has to the audience because people are willing to overlook a whole lot of nonsense in order to get their fix of Hangman Page.

39:01 That's a good sign for him, but I think they have to start putting more serious pieces around him.

39:06 At least if I had my preference. I'll say this and throw back to Chris. I think there's a lot more money and ratings and buy rates now pay-per-view buys to be had. If the Bucs reigned in their comedy, Kenny acted more high-end, more serious, less low-rent and goofy, and in dark Order, we're kept away from Hangman Page in a world title program. Other than that transitionary promo two shows ago, that was a real good way to bridge away from Dark Order after giving them their praise for being right and being there for them. I just think there's more money to be made by reigning into being the elite stuff. And it doesn't, to me, it doesn't matter if the people who buy tickets, it does, it matters, but it doesn't override my point that the

39:59 people buying tickets are enjoying it. I think that can be used, um, to, to justify doing things that are limiting your growth otherwise. Um, and they should be wanting to grow, I would think. And some of the stuff that they indulge in, I think is for the people they already have, and it's going to limit the growth. Um, Anyway, so, Chris, back to you. You can follow up on that or change topics.

40:25 Yeah, real quick. I think that the Dark Order and the Trios match with the super elite, or whatever they're calling, Page and the Buck, not Page, Cole and the Bucks, they transitioned so well to a more serious act, and then they just went back the other way this week, which was sad to see. I don't want to make a question about the awful news coming out of Ring of Honor today, but I want to leave you on this one and see if you think there's anyone from that roster that we could see showing up on Dynamite soon.

41:01 I have a couple of ideas, but I'm really curious what you two think could come out of this in the terms of AEW making a few signings. I know at least one person has hinted they're on their way over already.

41:12 Who made that hint? I didn't notice.

41:14 Dan Housen has already posted that he's caring to be all elite. And it's funny, you mentioned comedy and wrestling. I think he's a great example of it. He's one of my favorite unsigned people right now. I mean, he's not a main event guy, but some of the stuff he can do is really amusing. So I don't know what you thought, if there was any potential coming out of that. I'll let you chew on that one for a little bit and leave you there.

41:37 Thanks for us. Appreciate it very much. I will say just a chance for a VIP plug here that Todd Martin and I did an early episode of the fix with gosh, 40, 40 minutes or so of in-depth analysis on the ring of honor news. They announced earlier today that they're essentially shutting down for a hiatus after their final battle pay-per-view next month. And then they are saying they're coming back, you know, next year. I can't remember the date, but a few months into the year, and revising what they're doing. And in short, they're letting, they're letting all the, canceling all the contracts with wrestlers. Everyone's free agent. They're just going to reimagine themselves as I guess, ROH 2.0 or something. So Todd and I went into it.

42:19 And part of that conversation was just pretty much Todd running down the entire roster of ROH and going over each, I mean, almost everybody going over each name and where he thinks, who he thinks would fit in with a W or WB or new Japan or, or otherwise that's there. And I believe while I've been recording here, Sean Radigan said he also, has done a show looking at Ring of Honor. And he originally started covering Ring of Honor for PW Torch back in the 2000s. So we've got a couple podcasts tonight for people who really want to go in depth on that story. And so there's that.

42:59 And then, unfortunately, our new weekly PW Torch Daily Cast ROH show, which is called Honor Speak, might have a short run. We'll see how that goes. I feel bad for Chris and Justin. They'll get a lot of listens this week and for the next few weeks, and then we'll see how things go from there. They just took over the helm for Ryan and Tyler there. So, Jake, with all that said, I'll throw to you if you want to talk about some ROH talent you'd like to see in AEW.

43:30 But I guess the top of my list would be Bandito, Dragon Lee, Jonathan Gresham, Josh Woods.

43:41 I'm trying to think if there's anybody else.

43:43 The Briscoes, I think, would probably be able to come in and at least do a couple of programs, even if they don't stick.

43:48 Around long term. I think.

43:53 Maybe they might be able to get something out of PCO. It's hard to tell if he'd really integrate into this show. It's such a unique act. But I think, you know, if you're AEW, you got to be patient. You know, it's not, they already have so many people under contract and they're having a hard time fitting them into the television that they're already airing. And to think about adding even more people, especially a huge influx of talent all at once, it becomes, you know, I mean, it's an embarrassment of riches in some ways.

44:26 And so I don't know how many would immediately be uh, making the jump.

44:30 I could see, you know, Andrade wanting to bring in some of his crew, you know, Roosh and, and, and that stuff to do, uh, you know, uh, Los Ingobernables again, but I don't know if that's a high priority for AEW right now either. And so there's, it's all going to depend on, you know, how, how many people that think they could actually fit onto the TV show. Cause you just don't want to warehouse people. That's what got WWE into so much trouble a few years ago.

44:54 Yeah, absolutely. How about, uh, Jay White? Um, would, would he work in a kind of a Bobby Fish type way? Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

45:01 I think there's quite a few acts in Ring of Honor that could fulfill that role. I'm sure Jay Lethal, Kenny King, there's all kinds of veterans that you could bring in that could deliver good matches on television. It's just a matter of would you sign them and use them over talent you already have? That's really the open question.

45:22 Absolutely.

45:22 Yeah.

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46:26 See you in the paradise. All right, well, we'll keep rolling here. And, well, actually, we'll give the phone number one more time. If you're just joining us midstream here, you're still welcome to call the show.

46:42 347-215-8558. That's 347-215-8558.

46:48 215-8558. When you call, push one on your keypad after calling in. That flags you on our switchboard so we know that you want to be brought on the show and that you're not just calling to listen in in the background. You can also email us at wadekellerpodcast at pwtorch.com. All right, we'll go next to Hinton. We'll stay in Canada here, in London, Ontario. Hinton, thanks for calling. What stood out on Dynamite for you? Hey, guys.

47:16 How's it going? I was not expecting to be on this early. So I'm going to be a bit heelish myself here and say that I called it last week on this show. I mentioned that Cody Rhodes was acting very Triple H-like from Rampage right into Dynamite. I don't think Eric or you really believed me when I said that, and I thought I was getting ahead of myself, but He mentioned it himself, and I'm like, I'm congratulating myself.

47:43 I'm being like Cody Rhodes here. So he leeched off of PAX for a moment, and I genuinely thought he was hit a pedigree. Or he improvised it after listening to me on this show, in which case, hi, Cody, how you doing? I'm about to trash you again. So, yeah, I want to say this was the worst promo I have ever heard in terms of the dissonance between content and delivery. I thought his delivery was fairly good. And as far as the basics of a promo, just structurally, I thought it was fine. But in terms of the words that came out of his mouth, it was abysmal.

48:24 The dude opens up with this long meta story, which just makes me think, okay, you don't hate Triple H because of a bad working experience. You want to be him. You're envious of him. You're jealous of him. And this just makes Triple H giggle with us. Triple H right now, I'd be like, you know, I mean, God bless him, health issues and everything. But I'd watch this and I'd go, yeah, I mean, I have nothing to worry about with this guy.

48:50 And then he tosses like these expensive shoes into the crowd and he like and he's demanding sympathy, like. I don't know if you mentioned this, but he's like, you know, the people who– you cheer for the guy that signs the checks, but what about the guy who built the bank? Really, the guy who built the bank was Shahid Khan, actually, not you. And you were one of the people that– yeah, you helped with the first few events, but you weren't the sort of main act, essentially. It was sort of an ensemble cast that drew those large crowds. And to feel entitled to that crowd sympathy and to think that you're going Hollywood, again, you're not quite Hollywood yet. It's more about the lack of lack of self-awareness, how close

49:41 you are with your wife, uh, sorry, not how close you are with the wife, but, but your wife's, um, your wife's lack of self-awareness, her open willingness, despite her own mother-in-law saying that, Oh, you want to wrestle? And she's like, yeah, I want to wrestle. I want to be women's champion again to, you know, crawl over other women who deserve a chance. It's all of this. That's really feeding into this reaction. Um, I don't think he understands. Um, And I'm really worried. I don't know if there's a question in there, but I just wanted to get that off my chest. I'll let you guys react.

50:15 Yeah, Jake, anything you want to add to that?

50:17 Yeah, I think that's a lot of the ground we covered in the opening around the lack of self-awareness and the obsession with legacy. I mean, there is that line in his– sort of introduction music, you know, where he talks about there's more than one royal family in wrestling, you know, referring to the Rhodes and in comparison to the McMahons, I'm assuming.

50:45 And so I think there.

50:46 Is a bit of, you know, how I guess it's maybe an obsession with with that family and comparing themselves to them and wanting to to forge a a legacy for himself and AEW that he can feel good about and compare to, you know, Triple H, somebody he feels, he maybe feels like overlooked him at various points in his life. And so I think that all kind of spills into this, this character and, and, and the way that he is perceived and, and some of the over the top melodrama that has surrounded the way that he and his wife have, have, you know, portrayed themselves on AEW television over the last couple of years.

51:27 Yeah.

51:27 And so I don't know what, you know, there's no silver bullet here. I think, you know, if you asked 15 people what it is exactly about Cody Rhodes that turns them off, they might give you a half a dozen different answers.

51:41 And so I think it's.

51:42 You know, it's a full scale reevaluation of how he's presented and how he is relating to how people are reacting to him, because it seems almost combative in nature at times. And I think that that requires a lot more introspection than what we, at least what appears to be happening from the outside looking in.

52:02 It's really interesting. I don't know how this ends, but I just don't know that white knuckling and white knuckling it and strong arming, trying to strong arm fans into cheering for you and explaining why they should be is the route to go. And I guess if there's one point I'll reiterate from earlier, it's this would have been the week for him to walk out without the ring entrance and the pyro. And really seem like he's serious about stripping things down. And then, you know, don't just pay lip service to saying you guys think I went Hollywood. Instead, you know, tell us what you're going to tell the audience what you plan to do that shows that you actually do hear them. And you don't just hear them

52:42 and want to explain why they're wrong, but you hear them and are willing to take the action to change their mind, not just talk them into realizing that they are wrong about you. And I think that's probably where the promo... is going to be less effective than Cody hoped. Hint back to you.

53:01 Yeah, and one more thing that I wanted to mention is don't strawman your criticisms as being former wrestling managers that yell at a cloud. I don't know who he was referring to there, but that's not the people that were booing you in that audience, for God's sake. So, you know, just stick to, yeah, criticisms are legitimate and then work. sort of upward from there. But I'm going to move on from Cody. I want to talk a bit about Jon Moxley. I don't know if it was mentioned last week. It was a long show, so I don't remember. But yeah, I think this guy really wants to turn heel and then sort of go against what fan sentiment might be because It seemed like he wasn't really going anywhere as a babyface, and AEW just got

53:52 this injection of two pretty hot faces. And he was sort of off in Moxley-verse for a little bit in Japan, wrestling Japanese wrestlers who maybe half the AEW audience would know. And so he beats up this guy, Wheeler Yuta, pretty severely. And when Orange Cassidy was tending to him and they announced the brackets, I'm like, okay, yeah, this is sort of foreshadowing him against Cassidy. And then today he sort of does the same with Preston Vance. And then in his promo last week, he mentioned, you know, I don't care about this. I don't care about that. I'm like, okay, he can still be a babyface. He can still be a babyface. Until I heard, I don't care about the AEW title. And when I heard that, I'm like, okay, yeah,

54:39 this guy is definitely thinking about going, you know, because one of the things that One of the main criticisms I heard of WWE in the mid-2010s was that championships really started to be a lot meaningless. You had Seth Rollins on top who wouldn't even make main event shows. The U.S. Intercontinental title were fairly devalued, and AEW really sort of built themselves on, we're going to value each of our championships. So when he said, I really don't care about the AEW title, but I need that stature in order to, you know, do something for my daughter.

55:16 I'm like, okay, uh, it's coming here. So what do you guys think, uh, of, of his character?

55:24 Yeah.

55:24 I think it's very good to talk about others other than Cody. Although I do warn people, the mailbag is going to have some more on Cody and who knows what our callers are going to say after hitting here. But, um, yeah, the Moxley, uh, heel turn is, is happening. It's one of the things that's really fun about AEW is you get to see this, this other vision of, And someone else in charge who, you know, at least we think has a pretty open– has open ears to new ideas and is still formulating how he wants to go about things.

55:54 And so seeing Moxley's version of how to turn heel is interesting, which is– you know, part of what Hint said, and then also, well, both things that Hint said, but especially brutalizing, uh, his hapless opponents in a way that feels like it's, it's excessive and aiming down and the way he marches, you know, to, and like when he bought, marched away from the ring tonight, like no acknowledgement to the fans, um, just marching through the crowd still, but not acknowledging the fans. And it's, you know, I, I think it's going to work. Um, But it's going to be funny either way to kind of see this approach instead of something that feels a little more cliche. What do you think, Jacob, what you're watching so far?

56:36 I think the round's already in the chamber. I think Moxley turns heel in the finals of this tournament and beats Bryan Danielson. And I think he goes after Hangman Page. I think, think about the way that he phrased that promo. Gosh, I think it was just last Saturday on Dynamite when he spoke about having an utter disregard for anything but getting home to be with his family.

57:00 And him getting home safe being the most.

57:02 Important thing means that other people have to get hurt. And in his previous promo from that, he talked about just how much he enjoys hurting people. And you listen to that in contrast to Hangman Page, and they both have something in common.

57:18 They both just had children.

57:20 And you have Hangman Page having a child restored his confidence. it made him feel like a man again. And Jon Moxley, he broke bad. He had a kid, and it made him obsessed with getting back home. And so now you have two guys who had very similar experiences and very different reactions to it, and they're both going to be fighting for that prize.

57:43 And I think it's.

57:43 Probably a far more interesting story than whatever the goof troop in the elite is doing with Omega and the championship. So If they want to continue doing that stuff, my God, move them out of the title picture and get Moxley in there because he is on fire right now.

58:01 One of the best promos in the company by far. If you're Tony Khan and you're watching Omega's self-indulgent weirdo tendencies just manifest with Matt and Nick and perhaps hurting Adam Colbrand, we'll see. Are you more leaning towards, if you weren't sure, or there was an option to go either way, towards just going with Hangman and, like you said, moving on to Moxie against Hangman in the main event and let the best bout machine from five years ago in New Japan now enter this chapter of being a mid-card goofball heel who's going to give you great mid-card matches but not build a brand around him? Or do you sense Tony doesn't feel quite the way that I just framed it uncharitably towards Kenny And there's still a

58:49 tendency to want to go with Kenny just based on what he can still do in the ring and what his legacy is. And maybe more of a belief that what he's doing is fine. You know, you want to let wrestlers be who they are. And there's actually a weird authenticity to him being this kind of weirdo.

59:04 I don't think Kenny Omega needs the AEW championship to be the best bout machine. And sending him down a similar path to Hangman Page where he loses that title and he loses that confidence and he has to go, you know, go out there every week and still compete and still convince himself that he's the best, even though he doesn't have the gold anymore. That's the kind of thing that can rescue you from being a weirdo on television for a year. He needs a change of pace.

59:34 He needs a different kind of motivation. He got to the mountaintop. He held the championship. He defended it numerous times in excellent matches. It's time for somebody fresh. And him not having the title kind of frees him to do something different. And it frees him to go have that rubber match with Danielson and do other things on the card. that he wasn't capable of doing before. And if some of that involves being a goof in a comedy act, that's fine, because it's not your world championship program.

1:00:04 All the time.

1:00:05 And so I think that would be a much better move for Omega at this point. I think the title, if anything, is holding him back from growing.

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1:01:11 Either way works, go to Patreon and start your seven-day free trial. All right, I'll hit anything else you want to follow up on or add.

1:01:24 Yeah, I'd be a little worried if Moxley is Hangman Page's first– one of his first opponents coming through because I don't think Hill Moxley can afford to lose high-profile feud right away. But we'll get to that bridge when we come to it. I wanted to quickly ask– I joined the show kind of late. I was reading a report that said that Bobby Fish apparently kicked out before the three count. Then I went and saw it myself.

1:01:52 I'm like, holy shit, he actually did it. And Punk was looking at the referee and I'm like, okay, there's no way he's trying to Hulk Hogan his way through this match. He is smart enough not to do that. So that only leaves me thinking that this feud is going to continue. And I don't know, I don't feel...

1:02:10 I don't think Bobby Fish needs this, this much television time. Um, and I, and if there's going to be a pay-per-view match where they do like the rematch because of this kickout, um, I'm not really feeling it. Um, what are your guys' take on, on what we saw today?

1:02:25 Uh, yeah, I, I wrote that in my report. Hinton, hopefully it was my report you chose to read online at pwtorch.com. Uh, but yeah, there definitely, definitely was a kickout. Um, you know, right around three, it seemed like it was before three and, uh, I mean, if it's to give Bobby Fish a reason to say, I didn't lose and it was a mistake, then he'd be right as a heel.

1:02:49 And I'm not quite sure that that's the best way to propel the feud forward. I can't imagine Bobby was like, I can't believe they're asking me to lose to this guy. I'm going to kick out right at three and pull the stunt that used to be something that wrestlers would do back in the day. I was just watching an old Bruiser Brody match a few months back, and he did that. You know, when wrestlers were kind of protective of doing a job, and they have various reasons for doing it, including not wanting Murd to get back to Japan, and they wanted an out that it wasn't really a three-count, and it was a crooked local referee and that kind of thing. I can't imagine Fish going into business for himself and kicking out when it wasn't scripted, but that

1:03:23 was Punk's finisher, and Punk gave him a lot. And I respect Bobby Fish, and I enjoy his matches, but he is a mid-card wrestler in NXT. He is a mid-card wrestler in AW, and they paid Punk a lot of money to to be able to beat clean a mid-card wrestler coming in from another brand that you just sort of beat up on in the ratings when he was part of a faction. But the last we saw of him, he was sort of a mid-card guy at post-faction.

1:03:50 So I want to find out what happened there. I don't know yet. Jake, how did you interpret that? And yeah, what's your take on it?

1:03:58 I guess I was transcribing the show just like you were, Wade. And so I don't know if I caught whether it was right at three or Right before or after?

1:04:09 Let's say it was at three and one eighth and that that doesn't make it any better. He should be knocked out for five minutes or a minute or 30 seconds after getting pinned, taking the GTS. Punk, when wrestlers hit their finishers, it's not standard for the person who gets pinned to kick out even right after three. If that happens, you save it for someone bigger than Bobby Fish.

1:04:29 So I think it was before three, but even if it was after, he still was doing the thing that a lot of wrestlers who are mad about doing a job have done in past centuries. So even that isn't a full excuse. It just amplifies it if he actually kicked out before. I'll inject this. I thought maybe he was knocked silly legit and was confused and thought he was supposed to kick out. I just thought maybe he kind of lost track of where they were in the match because he actually got knocked out. knock silly, which I wouldn't rule out because Punk hasn't done a lot of matches yet. Maybe, you know, there was a slip or he got stiff with him. So I'm holding out for that as a possibility, too, that Fish has actually

1:05:05 lost track of what was going on.

1:05:06 Yeah, I can't really say what the motivation was. I guess a couple of the– I also thought that he might have been, you know, knocked loopy and kicked out by mistake. My second thought was, well, the story they told throughout the match was that he was going after punk's knee and he did so fairly successfully you know were they trying to say that punk didn't quite get all of the move and and that's why it happened but the announcers didn't really make any any reference to that and if it was story related i would think that they would have been on top of that and so i i yeah i'm just as confused as you are i don't know exactly what the motivation was here hopefully you can get some clarification or yeah or.

1:05:49 Whatnot yeah i'll certainly reach out and ask um yeah hit anything else Yeah.

1:05:55 I wanted to quickly mention– I should have mentioned this before I brought this point up, but Eddie Kingston. So he was fairly aggressive in his promo against Bryan, and he mentioned something. He said last night or something that Bryan said that he would– that Eddie Kingston was losing his way or something or that he– I forgot what he said.

1:06:17 He doesn't work hard except when he's in the ring. And I'll clarify for you because just– That was said during Roads to the Top season finale that aired after Dynamite. It was one of those stay tuned, folks. You'll get to hear, you know, from Brian Danielson and Eddie Kingston during Roads to the Top. So if you didn't watch Roads to the Top Saturday, then you missed it. It was, you know, 15 minutes into the follow up to Dynamite.

1:06:41 I was looking at the Dark report to see if he said it on Dark, because I know Bryan was on Dark yesterday. Considering the abrasiveness of Kingston and the fact that Bryan then tied him with Jon Moxley, the two toughest wrestlers that I know, do you feel like Kingston's going to go along with Moxley as a heel, or are they just going to go their separate ways now?

1:07:05 What do you think is Kingston's trajectory?

1:07:08 Yeah, I was wondering about that too. What do you think, Jake, if Moxley's taking the path he's taken?

1:07:12 Yeah, I think both guys are much more effective as heels, honestly, especially from a promo standpoint. And so I wouldn't mind seeing Kingston trend in that direction. I guess we'll have to see how he reacts to what Jon Moxley does. They might decide that it may be more effective if Moxley, you know, actually physically attacks Kingston at some point and they get a match out of that. But my gut feeling is that this is really just Kingston's reaction to Bryan Danielson saying he didn't put in the work. And Bryan tying the two of them together is really just part of the ongoing heavy foreshadowing that they've been doing in this tournament. I don't think it's a coincidence that Danielson has to beat up Moxley's best friend on his

1:08:00 way to the finals, just like the Wheeler-Yuda assault foreshadowed the eventual match with Orange Cassidy. It's been fairly obvious from the start that Moxley and Danielson was going to be the finals here, and they're just kind of backfilling the pieces along the way.

1:08:21 Hey everyone, Greg Parks here.

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1:09:27 What do you think of the exchange with Brian Danielson and Kingston? With Kingston saying, you know, every day I wake up, I take a Zoloft to stay sane and I battle depression. And I got to make sure I don't hurt somebody. And, you know, when I'm in the ring, I bring it. And then Danielson kind of soaking it up after Eddie walked away with a great line. What was it? I enjoy my back or something like that as he walks away. And then Brian just kind of pausing and you're like, what's he going to say? And he milks the moment for an extra half second longer than even you're comfortable with. And then he goes, that's the Eddie Kingston I want. You know, like bring that guy on. I've motivated him. So there's that. But then

1:10:04 there's also just the aspect of, you know, should Brian be I guess Brian is framing his, what seems like an insult at Eddie as more a motivational prompt, trying to spark him to maybe reach his potential by working a little harder than he has been. And then also channeling the stuff he did with Miz 10 years ago, or was it five? I don't even know. I think it was 10. Yeah, 10. Where it's like, you know, you're the king of soft style and Miz like, I never get hurt. That's why I work this style. And I think Brian likes that stuff that kind of walks the edge. So just your thoughts on that. Yeah, I think it's both.

1:10:37 I think, you know, Brian wants to fight the best version of Eddie Kingston, and he also probably actually does want him to do the work outside the ring. You know, he managed to sneak in a line there about how there's a lot of people in and out of wrestling that, you know, are on medication and have to confront anxiety and depression on a daily basis, and they don't take it out on other people.

1:11:03 And so.

1:11:05 He took away the excuse, essentially, that Eddie had for not actually doing the work. And so I think it's really kind of a two-pronged attack. It gets into Eddie's head because Brian is insulting him, and it also motivates him. And for Brian, there's two purposes there. He gets into Eddie's head, and he also gets the best possible version of Eddie Kingston to fight because as a character— He does like having the psychological advantage, and he also loves to fight.

1:11:34 And those are the things that motivate Brian. If the idea is kind of plant seeds in fans' minds that maybe Eddie Kingston isn't the hero to cheer for because he's unstable and he doesn't put in the work, and then he whines about it and makes all these excuses that Brian has just discredited as, hey, we all go through it, you go through it, we just don't all use that as an excuse for all the shortcomings in our life. And maybe some of the hardship that you've had is due to personal choices you've made. instead of holding yourself accountable and putting in the work. I mean, that's a pretty effective way to turn somebody heel by, you know, speaking some truth that in turning what used to be sort of an asset or something that fans

1:12:13 found sympathetic and kind of take that away and now put it on the wrestler who then reacts poorly to it. So I don't know, maybe it is just, you know, kind of a sophisticated way to try to chip away at what fans like about Eddie and take that away as he then stays with Moxley when Moxley goes heel, which is good because if you have fans cheering Kingston and Moxley when he's taking on Hangman Page for the AW World title, if that's the way it goes, that can backfire. But if Kingston is the guy at ringside who's adding heel heat to Moxley and helping him win and cheating... you want to take away some of what fans like about Kingston first and that Brian promo can help do that.

1:12:56 Certainly.

1:12:56 I think it all depends on how they have Eddie Kingston react to that statement. It all, it all, it's whether or not he, you know, he accepts accountability and actually attempts to do better or whether he, you know, turns into himself and becomes bitter and joins Moxley as a heel.

1:13:13 Those are both possibilities. Anything else you want to wrap up with here?

1:13:18 Yeah, that match is going to take place on Rampage. I'm going to bring up something else, which probably no one else has on their mind, which is the Leo Rush story, which because I've been doing these Rampages and misses, I've had to really pay attention to that. That is where it kind of started. I think the story has been missing quite a few chapters here. his debut essentially was a backstage interview where he already had his arms around both Dante Martin and Matt Seidel. I'm like, how did you, how did it get from pre-taped solo interviews to that? And then he gets a match with, he gets Matt Seidel a match with CM Punk and Matt Seidel is jubilant. He's like, oh yeah, man, you're so cool if you get me this match. And then after

1:14:05 the match, he's already distancing himself from, quite overtly for Matt Seidel and saying, yeah, well, you know what? Now my protege, Dante Martin's going to fight you. And Dante Martin's supposed to be the baby face here. He just, he doesn't say a word. He's just sitting back, just standing there and really just being a passive statue. It's like, you know, Festus. It's like, I will not move. I will not talk until the bell rings. I'm not fond of this story. I'm not sure why. it feels like there's so many chapters that have been eaten away and probably dark or something. Um, are you guys able to follow it? What do you make of Leo Rush's debut so far? And, uh, this whole saga that's about to play out.

1:14:47 Yeah.

1:14:47 I'm not sure so far that Dante has come across, uh, particularly, uh, inspiring. Um, he's just kind of standing there sort of almost like a hostage Al Pouty and his acting, um, in the last segment he did with Leo was, was, was rough. Jake, your thoughts on what they're doing here.

1:15:07 Yeah, I guess, you know, it might be something to do with, you know, having so much of it not happen on TV, apparently. But based on his initial vignette, I got the impression that Leo Rush was going to be a con man. And I guess he's kind of starting to implement a plan like that. I don't know how, you know, swindling Dante Martin as a protege away from Matt Seidel fits into his grand plan. But it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense thus far. And as you mentioned, Dante Martin's statue, you know, acting has been so bad in these backstage promos that I don't know if that's actually how they intend him to respond to this.

1:15:54 Or if he's.

1:15:55 Supposed to be a guy who has been swindled and doesn't know how to get out of it. But I think his acting is so wooden that I can't quite tell what they're going for.

1:16:04 Yep. All right.

1:16:06 Hinton, thank you. Appreciate it.

1:16:07 Yeah, thanks, Jake. Thanks, Wade. Have a good night. Yep.

1:16:12 Check out Hinton's missile column at pwtorch.com. If you're listening to us on the Apple Podcast app, on Spotify, or any other app that allows you to rate our podcast, please take a moment to give us a five-star rating. It really helps us in the algorithm and helps them know that you recommend us to others. Just look for a place to rate the show on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to our shows, and please click that five-star rating. And of course, thank you so much for listening. All right, up next, we'll go to Nick in Brattleboro.

1:16:47 Nick.

1:16:48 Thanks for holding. Thanks for calling. What jumped out on Dynamite for you tonight?

1:16:53 Quick comment. Good evening, first of all. Quick comment on Cody. My whole problem with the thing is there's way too much blending of real life and character. I mean, when I'm watching Die Hard, I don't care that Bruce Willis is a radical Republican. When I'm watching The Godfather, I don't care that James Caan is not Italian. He's a Jewish kid from the Bronx. I thought this promo was just– and maybe it's my age. I'm not all Internet, Facebook crazed and wanting all the deep inside information. It's just this was like– I'm executive VP, and I'm going to do whatever I want, and you guys have to cheer me because I brought you this show that, aside from maybe having the idea and working hard to make

1:17:59 it happen, could not have happened without Tony Khan and Chad Khan's money. And it really, you know, goodbye, you know, get out, get off my television set.

1:18:16 Yeah. I don't know if I have much more to add, Jake. Anything more you want to add to that? No, I don't think so.

1:18:23 I think you've kind of nailed down the structural problems with Cody's character. It really, it's confusing, you know, if you're just watching the show and trying to follow along with who Cody is supposed to be. You know, you're expected to watch the reality show, you're expected to watch the The YouTube stuff, you're expected to follow along with his social media accounts in order to get all of the information that's required to digest. what in the hell is going on with this character and the same applies to a lot of the stuff that happens with uh with the being the elite stuff and how that bleeds over onto the show and and those are really my least favorite parts of aew by and large you know

1:19:03 the stuff that's that requires a you know, research and, you know, the responses you get from people when you criticize it or, well, have you watched the 14 Hours of Dark and Being the Elite and the Nightmare Family YouTube videos? No, like I shouldn't have to do that in order to enjoy a television show. And I think that's part of the reason why so many people, you know, check out when you start talking about Cody and his character.

1:19:30 It's just that it's very difficult to follow along.

1:19:33 And there's a lot, being blended between reality and fiction. And it's, it adds up to something that's less than the sum of its parts. And that's really unfortunate because for the most part, I think Cody is a very good promo and a good wrestler on top of it.

1:19:49 Yeah. I mean, it's, it's the way I look at it is I, I don't know. I have no idea, but pot's probably the nicest, sweetest guy backstage, you know, but this is his character and that's, and he, That's who he is for television. Not if you're going out and having a beer with him and you're a friend of his, you know, I just, anyway.

1:20:14 You know, I'm sympathetic to that. I've been, I've been Nick against any reference to any active wrestler being an EVP. I think it was a bad choice in the beginning. I don't think it had an upside. It felt like it was more just trying to, I mean, okay. The upside was we're a wrestler's company run by wrestlers. Um, but if you do that, then you have to own, how does that affect the objectivity of, of how they're featured?

1:20:39 And it works a lot better when you're heels. Um, well, actually it has no more, it actually, I'd be a hypocrite to say that because I thought it was dumb. The authorities were heels, but they were treated as like owners in charge. Um, it, in a way it's kind of a no win, but if you're flaunting your power and abusing it, you ought to be a heel. But if you're a baby face with power that now you're management, you know, and, I don't think fans love that. So I would keep the, it's a wrestling company run by wrestlers, you know, for wrestlers run by wrestlers, keep that in the press releases and the media interviews, but out of the, as Cody introduced into the on-air lexicon, out of the narrative.

1:21:15 You know, I talked for years about the narrative structure of shows and how important it is that I think they have a strong, thick narrative. impenetrable wall between the storyline on-air world and anything off-air. And you can do whatever you want off-air, but, you know, as a company, you know, you don't have to have wrestlers stay in character and pretend it's real. You could. You don't have to.

1:21:36 You can, you know, depending on the situation and the wrestler, alter that. But on-air, stay storyline. And I think Cody, you know, just went deeper into the whole metal world that I think has... is counterproductive and, yeah, sort of unselfaware. All right, Nick.

1:21:56 Yeah, I mean, just, I remember, and I thought it was strange at the time, but that's fine, is after Roman Reigns' heel turn, and they haven't shown any lately, but they showed a couple of shots of him with the Make-A-Wish kids and stuff. As a heel on a wrestling show, you can still walk into a kid's hospital room who's, fighting cancer, and they are going to be pumped to see you. They may boo you initially, but they're going to say, oh, can I have your autograph?

1:22:28 You know, this is entertaining. Cody, you're still going to have people asking for your autograph. Don't worry about it.

1:22:38 And you already.

1:22:40 Got picked up.

1:22:40 Okay, and I'll say this too, and this is pure guess or, you know, speculation.

1:22:46 I don't know.

1:22:48 When Cody says that, I think it's more a guilt trip on the fans for booing him because he's doing charity work. And, hey, fans, I want you to cheer me. And another reason to cheer me is because if you don't, you're not taking into account that I do charity work. I think it's more that than if I turn heel, I can't do this charity work anymore. But that's projecting motivation onto a situation.

1:23:14 Every Saturday I go to the food bank and put food in boxes for people. I'm not putting it on Facebook so I can get praise from someone. I'm doing it because it makes.

1:23:24 Me feel good.

1:23:27 I'm sorry. A soapbox.

1:23:31 I think you touched on something there in the sense that even children, I have an 11-year-old daughter.

1:23:38 I would say.

1:23:40 When she was five, maybe, she started to comprehend the difference between fiction and reality and I think most wrestling fans even young kids that are you know eight ten years old who might follow AEW I don't I don't know how young the youngest AEW fan is but I would assume that they can conceptualize the difference between Cody Rhodes the on-screen character and Cody Rhodes the guy who is actually doing the business of running AEW and whatever his off-screen responsibilities are and charity work and everything else I think it's insulting to the children who are watching the show to assume that him turning heel would be something that would prevent children from enjoying him doing charity work like Make-A-Wish or something. It's very bizarre, a strange

1:24:31 approach to combating that type of problem.

1:24:33 You didn't tell your daughter that Santa Claus isn't real, did you?

1:24:37 She put that one together all on her own, I think. I didn't need to write her a letter about that one. Jake, what do you think about.

1:24:46 You.

1:24:48 Know, we do say we're minivan safe, and suddenly we have become un-minivan safe. Oh, sorry.

1:24:54 Yes.

1:24:56 What was I going to say? Oh, yeah, Jake, what do you think of the idea that, like, if we're really to dig deep with Cody, he's not saying, I won't be able to do charity work if I turn heel, but it's more guilt-trip on fans for booing him, because, hey, I'm a guy who does charity work. You should be cheering me for that, too.

1:25:11 Yeah, I guess, is that Something of a self-absorbed response to it? Does everything need to be filtered through the lens of what do I prefer?

1:25:21 Do I have to get in my way all the time? Well, that's what I think. If we are to look at this through the potentially negative side of what's going into Cody, and Brandy might be a window into some of this too, it's a little bit of a tantrum. How dare you boo me? I'm doing charity work. And he can't say that, so he says, if I turn heel, I can't do charity work. The seed is planted. How dare you be someone who does charity work? Now you should feel bad about yourself, Jeremy. So I don't know.

1:25:50 Doesn't that go back to– it's kind of a series of self-imposed handicaps, right? It's like I'm never going to challenge for the AW world title. I'm never going to turn heel. Why say these things publicly? I mean, even if you feel that, I mean, why give away– years of storytelling in that, in that process.

1:26:11 It makes no sense.

1:26:12 So I guess I don't, I think Cody has now backed himself into a corner where he's trapped and maybe he just doesn't, doesn't know how to get out of it.

1:26:21 Yeah. We're, I put up a poll on Twitter. Are you more or less likely to be Cody Rhodes after tonight? And about almost a two to one, almost a two to one margin. People are more likely to boo than less likely to boo. A bunch of people just say they're not going to change and, And they're still going to boo him. In fact, about 40%. I say they're not changing, but it's split. They're either going to still boo him or still cheer him. But mostly it looks like it's working against Cody. But it does look like he won some people over. But I think he lost more people than he gained based on our early results of our Twitter poll. If, asterisk, Twitter is indicative and representative of the larger audience, which, of course, it may

1:26:58 or may not be.

1:26:58 I would just make a strong suggestion to Cody to not go to Philadelphia or Montreal.

1:27:04 Yep.

1:27:05 Going to put that out there.

1:27:08 It's running 2-1 more likely to boo him than cheer him among those whose opinions of him have changed. That could be an indicator of what's to come next week and the week after.

1:27:21 To get away from Cody, I wanted to give Shida and 3AD some major props tonight. I thought they brought it. I thought they were laying in the shots well, whether they were going stiff or not. I mean, they were acting well, performing well, the wrestling dance that is done. And facial expressions were good. I thought Serena was selling really well, which helped put over Shida, who also was When she gets all pumped up, she has a dynamism in her. And by the way, I love her new short bob haircut. I think it looks great. And it almost seems like they're set up that they're going to wash her from the tournament because of her knee, just so that it can be like Ruby versus Nyla without Shida taking a loss to Nyla.

1:28:29 Jake, I thought it was one of the better matches we've seen on Dynamite from the women. Yeah.

1:28:34 I mean, I can't think of a, of, of too many better ones. I, it Serena deep is really elevated. Everybody she's been in the ring with. I, I think it'd be hard to argue that she's not the, you know, the worker that has had the, the, the most chemistry with the widest array of opponents. And, you know, it seems like her and she to have, have something special. I, you know, Deeb would have been on my short list of people to actually capture that TBS championship. I can't think of a better TV champion, uh, for that women's division than, than Deeb at this point. They haven't, you know, gone way out of their way to give her a lot of promo time, but, uh, I, I, you know, she continues to impress me. So many of, uh, of my,

1:29:20 you know, of my favorite AEW women's matches involved Serena and what a, you know, what a Cinderella story that is. Somebody who had been out of wrestling for a long time, you know, ends up back in WWE as a trainer, you know, gets cut as a part of talent cuts and then finds a way back onto TV and AEW and just shows everybody what we've been missing.

1:29:40 It's been an incredible run for her. All right, Nick, anything else you want to bring up?

1:29:45 Yeah, no, just make a further comment on that. I mean, she's, She looks athletic. She's ripped. And to a certain extent, it's similar to Bianca Belair in the sense of she's doing it with athleticism, not glamour, which I appreciate. I totally agree with Jake. I think she is really something special and Um, she's heel right now. So they might be able to use her to turn Brit face if they're going to do that. Um, but I think she could have a good match with any of them. I mean, she already had a great match with, uh, Thunder Rosa, uh, back.

1:30:35 What about a year ago? Um, and I think her and Ruby Soho could have, you know, I just, uh, she's one of my favorites. And with that, I'll let you guys go have a good night. And, um, I look forward to talking with you later. Awesome.

1:30:52 I appreciate it, Nick. Thank you so much.

1:30:56 I'm Chris Maitland.

1:30:57 I'm Justin McClellan.

1:30:58 We host Wrestling Coast to Coast, a podcast of independent wrestling.

1:31:01 Every week, Chris and I review a different show or talk about important topics from around the indie wrestling world.

1:31:07 Learn about the hot underground stars and the future main eventers before anyone else. You can reach us at TorchCoastToCoast at gmail.com and me on Blue Sky at Mind of Maitland. You can reach me at bluesky at Justin McClelland. Find the show on your PWTorch Daily Cast podcast feed. Search PWTorch on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

1:31:28 Also, stream the latest shows on pwtorch.com.

1:31:37 Like I said, we got some emails on Cody and other topics coming up. But first, we're going to go to our on-site correspondent. They just wrapped up. in Boston with, I assume, a Rampage taping. We've got Taylor with us. Taylor, thanks for calling.

1:31:52 Hey, what's up, Wade? Thanks for having me.

1:31:54 Absolutely. So, wow, we spent a lot of time. I know you've been watching the taping of Rampage. We spent a lot of time talking about Cody, and I just want to get to that right away and just get your take on what happened with Cody in that ring and the ebb and flow of what he said went over with the live audience. Then we'll move to some of our other typical topics after that.

1:32:16 To be honest with you, you might have to fill me in on a little bit. You could barely hear him. I don't know if he was advertised or not, so I think once people saw the entrance coming, everybody was pretty ramped up to stop moving him out of the building. I think at one point, it was really loud. He was getting killed. I know at one point, he was talking about how He thought he was going to do the pedigree. He was talking about that move. Then he started throwing his shoes in the crowd. You could feel it in the air. People were ready to boom out of the ring.

1:32:51 Was there anything that he said that you think, even if you didn't hear exactly what he said, maybe some people heard some based on acoustics in the building, but was there any point where it seemed like the crowd booming him softened? Also, was there a pushback? by some of the fan base who were in attendance when there was a lot of booing, were there some people cheering, which we saw with Roman Reigns sometimes and even John Cena, but especially with Reigns where you'd hear the women in the kids' chair and the guys boo. Was there any sense of any kind of breakdown or change as that promo went along in terms of different fans reacting different ways at different times?

1:33:26 Yeah, I mean, you know, I would probably say it was 75-25, you know, 75 boos, but the 25 that were cheering for him were pretty loud. Um, I, at one point I think he said, I'm not, you know, I'm not going to turn, which, which really got the crowd, uh, going. Um, and then when he started talking about his dad that, you know, he could, I think he said he could live another 300 years and he'd never live up to his dad's legacy. People started cheering for that. Um, and then he started talking about his daughter. Um, he got a pretty good pop when he said, I have a wife that's too hot for me. Uh, so he knew what he, I mean, he knew what he was doing. Um, but for the most part, it honestly was, it was

1:34:01 tough to hear. It was, I'm going to, I'm looking forward to actually going home and watching the recording. I have to see what he actually said.

1:34:09 Interesting. Interesting.

1:34:10 Yeah.

1:34:10 So, um, just talk about how hopeful the building was. They, they said it was a sellout, um, where their seats tarped off, where there's tickets they could have sold that they didn't. Um, and then talk about the energy in the building before dynamite during dynamite and for the tapings afterwards, how many people stuck around?

1:34:26 Uh, yeah, I mean, it was, it was a full house, you know, um, I had pretty good seats. I was probably about eight rows up from the side of the ramp, so I had a pretty good view. It was a packed house. You could feel it with people at the concessions. We've been waiting for the show for a long time, so we were ready to go. It was definitely a full house.

1:34:47 A couple of scattered seats.

1:34:50 When Rampage started, I'd say maybe 80% full. No spoilers or anything, but You know, Brian and Eddie tore the house down. So the people that left really, they missed a hell of a match.

1:35:05 Without doing, well, yeah, I'll ask this. People can fast forward 15 seconds if they want. It's a half spoiler. Was there a significant angle, and I'm talking slowly so people can reach for fast forward and mute, and then we'll be done within 30 seconds. Was there a significant angle coming out of it with either Kingston or Moxley?

1:35:24 Because things got pretty heated with Danielson and Kingston in the promos.

1:35:29 Yeah.

1:35:29 So I don't know if they showed it on TV, but, uh, after the match ended, uh, everybody got up and gave them both a standing ovation. Um, you know, they, they both stayed down on the mat for a while. Uh, Brian got up first and started pointing at Eddie and pointing at the crowd, like, let's go, let's go cheer for him. Um, so the place started going wild for Eddie, you know, honestly, the place is going crazy for Eddie, the whole match. Um, I, you know, I think we all knew what was going to happen, but we don't, we were still, still hoping in the back of my mind. Um, And then after the match... Real quick.

1:35:58 Would you say Bryan or would you say Kingston got cheered significantly more than Bryan or they just both were cheered loudly and equally?

1:36:05 You know, I would say that the house was pulling for Eddie, but I would say halfway through that match, we were going wild for both of them. I mean, they put on an absolute banger of a match. But like I said, at the end of the match, Bryan, you know, went to shake Eddie's hand. Eddie kind of said, screw you, walked out of the ring. And then, you know, I don't know how far you want me to go, but...

1:36:25 they kind of set up Eddie's next angle. Um, in rampage, you can kind of see where he might be heading.

1:36:33 Um, okay.

1:36:34 Uh, we can, uh, we'll, we'll stop there. Uh, I mean, it happened in front of fans. It's not really a, it's a spoiler, but it's also in front of a crowds, but we'll, we'll, we'll stop there for, uh, for people. Although feel free, if you want to email me later, some more details, and I can post them with a spoiler warning on, on PW torch.com. That might be a better approach to take for the sake of our listeners. So, um uh jake i'm gonna throw to you jake barnett's my co-host by the way taylor uh jake um anything you want to uh jump in with for with the question on the live experience from.

1:36:59 Taylor yeah i guess i'm i'm curious uh you know how the how the crowd reacted to the dynamite main event with all the uh with all the costumed uh you know elite and dark order members were there points in the match where they seemed to lose the crowd with all the kind of silly jokes they were doing or did they have the crowd for the entire match No.

1:37:20 I mean, in my section and from what I heard, I mean, they had the crowd the whole match. People were going for wild for Cole Cabana and the Brandon Cutler outfit. And then once the crowd kind of realized who was in the Stay Puft Marshmallow costume, which is such a wild sentence to even say, the crowd went pretty crazy.

1:37:44 Go ahead, Jake.

1:37:44 Anything else?

1:37:45 Yeah, I guess we just talked to the previous caller about Serena Deve and Hikaru Shida. I guess coming out of that match, how was the crowd reaction to both women? I guess it seemed like at various points the crowd was more invested in that match than the main event, at least from a television perspective. But I know the acoustics in the building are a lot different.

1:38:10 That match kind of started off a little slow. It was pretty quiet at the beginning. Um, but as the match went on, um, everyone was really pulling for Shida. Um, you know, people were cheering for Shida, Shida. Um, yeah, I mean, I thought it was a great match. Uh, the beginning was, I would say at the beginning, I, I felt like it was kind of the quietest at the, it was at the building that time. I don't know if it had to do with, I mean, that first hour was like one after another, after another, you know, we, people in my section were looking at each other. Like, I can't believe we have an hour to go and so much has already happened. Um, I mean, it was, uh, it was, it was, it was, it was pretty cool. Um,

1:38:48 But yeah, I would say the crowd was definitely behind Shida.

1:38:53 iPhone users, if you're listening to us on the Native Podcast app on your iPhone, You can unlock our commercial-free versions of our free shows by searching PWTorch in Apple Podcasts. You'll see a charcoal gray logo that says PWTorch VIP on it. Click on that. There's some free samples of VIP shows, and you can unlock the entire VIP lineup, which includes VIP exclusives plus commercial-free versions of the free shows by searching PWTorch in Apple Podcasts and clicking on the PWTorch VIP logo. and then activate your three-day free trial.

1:39:22 And after that, you can become a VIP member using your Apple account. It's that easy. Enjoy a streamlined listening experience to our free shows and unlock all the VIP exclusives, including our post-pay-per-view roundtables, the Wade Keller news bulletins, everything with Rich and Wade, the fix that I host with Todd Martin, and a variety of other VIP exclusives. Just search PWTorch in your Apple Podcast app. Talk about the heat for MJF. We often hear one of the reasons he overmodulates and yells when we're watching on TV is so that he can hear himself because the booing is so loud. He stopped short of overmodulating the microphones this week.

1:40:02 Does that mean there was less heel heat or he just realized yelling isn't good for the TV audience? Talk about the heel heat he got.

1:40:08 I'm sorry, Wade. I just got on my car and you just switched to my speakerphone. Can you just repeat what you wanted me to talk about?

1:40:13 Yeah.

1:40:14 No, no problem at all. You sound better anyway. What happened with how much heel heat did MJF get? for his promo?

1:40:20 Oh, it was, I mean, it was nuclear. I mean, it was, I haven't been in an arena that long for like wrestling with, you could just feel like the animosity in the air. It's one of those things, you know, what's coming and you know what he's going to say. And he's going to go for the, you know, the Boston sucks and your accents all suck. But yeah, the place went wild. It was, and then he tricked us with the sting entrance. The place went crazy. I know I did. I've never seen, i've been wrestling for my whole life i'm 36 i've never seen sting live so uh when they when he when he when he did the the music you know i kind of i you know i stood up out of my seat and then i was like oh you know the back that he

1:41:01 got us and then uh i was thinking sting wasn't going to come they were going to play up the beat down from last week and then sting came which is pretty cool nice.

1:41:08 Nice um how about uh the uh Sammy Guevara, Aligo, Ethan Page, which we haven't talked about much at all. Guevara retained the TNT title there. Where did that fall in terms of the list of just highlights for the night? I mean, I thought it was a really good match.

1:41:23 Yeah, it was awesome. You know, the crowd was really into it. I thought Ethan Page was getting pretty good heat from the crowd. You know, the whole building was behind Sammy. You know, everybody went crazy for the high spots. I thought it was a great match.

1:41:38 Okay, so rank the positive responses among the wrestlers. I mean, CM Punk had a big advantage, obviously, coming out. Was he the first match, or was there something that went on before Dynamite?

1:41:51 There was some doc matches. I didn't get to the arena until probably about 7.30. But from what I heard, I was in line getting a couple beers. And what I heard, Tay Conti wrestled. I think Orange Cassidy wrestled. But I didn't get to see those matches. I was in line.

1:42:08 Did they tell the audience that Punk was going to be the first match out? Because they were chanting CM Punk before his music played.

1:42:14 Yeah, Tony Khan came out before and kind of got the crowd pumped up. It was basically like, you know, we've had to push the show back for over a year now. We know you've been ready. We're going to get the show started right away with CM Punk. And then during Rampage, I don't know if this is what he does all the time, but between every match during Rampage, Tony Khan would come out and get the crowd pumped up.

1:42:40 I don't know if it's cause it's a long night. He's trying to keep everybody pumped up for the, uh, taping, but, uh, yeah, Tony came on and let us know what was going on.

1:42:47 All right, cool. And so, yeah, rank the, uh, the crowd responses for, for baby faces, man.

1:42:53 I would say, I would say Jericho one. I don't think anybody expected him to be there because of the cruise. Um, so when his music hit, uh, the place went crazy. Uh, they went crazy for punk. Um, I think we had a few kind of feel in the building that this was going to be the night that Darby was going to come back. So when he came out in the trench coat, everybody went crazy. I think a few people were kind of disappointed that the Moxley match was so short.

1:43:24 But I guess that's all just part of the story.

1:43:27 Did they boo him at all? Were fans kind of ahead of the curve at this point, but thinking, let's start booing this guy, or was it just still wild cheers?

1:43:35 It was loud. I mean, the match kind of, I mean, the match got over so quick, and he just rolled out of the ring, you know, kicked the guardrail in and walked out of there. I mean, it was pretty badass, but I think everybody was kind of like, oh, man, I wish that was a little bit longer.

1:43:48 You know, yeah.

1:43:49 Yeah. So any other highlights from attending that you want to pass along to us, especially anything that happened off air or any crowd chants or anything like that?

1:44:02 Yeah, there was a pretty vulgar crowd chant that was kind of funny.

1:44:07 Wait, you said, but you're in Boston. This is Boston.

1:44:11 No way. Especially for Eddie. I mean, they'll definitely edit out, but there was a chant, F them up, Eddie, F them up, which was pretty good. That got pretty loud. I don't know if you remember in Ethan Page's promo, when he talks about how he has the tightest tits in the game. He's got tight tits, which is pretty funny.

1:44:35 And then he started popping them, which was even funnier. He was kind of getting into it.

1:44:40 Real quick, what about when MJF talked about what Ethan Page might have engaged in alone in his hotel room? What was the chant after that, if you can say it safely?

1:44:49 Oh, yeah, everyone just started chanting, beat your meat.

1:44:52 Yeah, that's what I thought, yeah.

1:44:54 Kind of a.

1:44:55 jericho jericho getting the uh cheap jokes in there um uh but no but i mean overall um i mean they really brought it tonight um you know i i wasn't expecting to see cody um i wasn't expecting to see malachi black um you know always great to see mjf uh he's a great heel uh so it was just honestly it was just a great night and then uh you know like i said i would say uh match of the night for me would be the, uh, the Brian, uh, Eddie match on rampage. So definitely watch that. Don't, don't, don't skip that. Um, yeah, but overall it was just a, a, a great night. You know, I, I kind of wish I had more complaints, you know, pretty complaint when it comes to some of this stuff. Uh, but it was just a fun night. It was just a really, a

1:45:39 really good night in Boston.

1:45:40 Had you seen AW before in person?

1:45:42 No, this was the first time. So, uh, I was actually, I was, I was really pumped. I, I got the tickets in July and emailed you right away to try to do the on-site course.

1:45:49 Yes, yes.

1:45:51 Well, did you, were you someone who watched WWE, attended WWE, and now you are just as likely or less likely? Like, just how, and kind of, once you say that, also kind of frame what this show was like for you in your 30s as somebody, you said you were in your 30s, right? Or was that a previous call?

1:46:08 Yeah, yeah.

1:46:08 So, and how this show speaks to you compared to other wrestling experiences you've had?

1:46:14 I mean, the last time I went to Raw, I mean, I felt like I was there for eight hours. I mean, I feel like at Raw, too, there's a lot of downtime. There's a lot of backstage segments. There's a lot of, you know, cutting to the commentary table. So a lot of time you're kind of just sitting there waiting for something to happen. AEW, I was very happy. It's just like bang, bang, bang, one thing after another. The last time I went to Raw, honestly, it was in Boston.

1:46:43 I didn't go when Big E cashed in because... I was just kind of done with going to raw for a little bit because the previous ones I had gone to, um, I had dragged my wife with me and, uh, you know, I, I kind of felt bad even because they were just horrible, horrible, boring shows. Um, so it was nice to kind of come to a wrestling show and, uh, kind of be on the edge of your seat, you know, half the night. Um, you know, there's definitely some stuff, you know, the, the Cody stuff is, you know, you know, it's the same, you know, it's kind of like you roll your eyes at a lot of stuff he does. Oh, one of the biggest pops of the night too was when Andrade told him that his tattoo was stupid. That's pretty good.

1:47:26 That was, that was pretty good. Yeah. I guess my only, my only complaint would just kind of be, I'm guessing, I don't know how you feel about it, but I'm guessing eventually he is going to turn heel. He's just trying to wait as long as he can to get the crowd going. so kind of vicious towards him to then kind of flip on them. Yeah, just kind of the Cody stuff. I just feel like it's– I don't know.

1:47:49 I just kind of feel like he thinks he's a lot cooler than he actually is. That's something I used to think about Seth Rollins a little bit back in the day. He kind of came off like he was a little bit cooler than he actually was. It's kind of a turnoff. But, yeah, I would say just kind of the Cody stuff. Just kind of roll your eyes at.

1:48:04 But the rest of the night was awesome.

1:48:07 Jake, anything else you want to ask before we let Taylor go? I can't think of anything. I think you touched on everything. Awesome. Taylor, thanks so much for calling in. I know it's been a long night, but it sounds like a fun night.

1:48:16 Yeah, no, it was great. And thanks for letting me call in, Wade. I really appreciate it.

1:48:20 Absolutely. I don't forget, you can be an on-site correspondent, just like Taylor was for us. Just email me ahead of time and put the name of the city in the subject line. So when I do a search, no matter when you send in your email, I can easily find you and get back to you as the date of the show approaches. Wade Keller podcast at pwtorch.com. Just let me know what the date is and what the city is and that you plan to go. And if you aren't super eager to be an on-site correspondent, but you want to be sure we have one, you can say, use me as a backup if you need me. Otherwise, I'm fine skipping it. That has occurred at times when we've only had one volunteer and we've had to go with them. But if we get like three, it's kind

1:48:58 of good to know if you're not like super enthusiastic about it. You're just willing to help. Then that helps certainly be a tiebreaker in terms of who we go with. So Wade Keller podcast at pwtorch.com. Admit it, you love Nick Barbatti when he co-hosts with me on the Wade Keller Post Shows. Well, now you can listen to him every week on the Nicky's Club, a VIP exclusive podcast.

1:49:19 Here's Nick to tell you more.

1:49:21 Hey, wrestling fans. It's Nick Barbatti, and I'm back with the Nicky's Club, the place where the family of Nicky's comes together for big laughs and sharp takes on WWE. From WrestleMania rumors to surprise returns, I got you covered. The Nicky's Club, where the wrestling feels like the coolest club in town.

1:49:34 Nick Barbatti wants to be part of your pro wrestling life every week, so... Why not let him? GoVIP. PWTorch.com slash GoVIP for full details on signing up. We're compatible with Patreon, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and just about any other iOS or Android app out there. You can also stream directly from our ad-free VIP website. The Nicky's Club, waiting for you every week at PWTorch VIP. All right, we're going to bring Javier in for the Javier Machado segment, and then we'll read some emails to wrap up after that. Javier, welcome.

1:50:09 Thanks for calling. Good to hear from you.

1:50:10 Hey, Jake.

1:50:11 Hey, Wade.

1:50:11 How's it going?

1:50:12 Good.

1:50:12 Have you woken up from your long post-G1 nap?

1:50:16 Yes, and straight into one with work.

1:50:19 Oh, no.

1:50:22 That's actually why I haven't– I may be a little bit– for work, so I got all eyes on.

1:50:29 Me, so– you cut out, you may be, you cut out heavier. You may be a little wide open.

1:50:37 Oh, I, I, I, you know, I may not be around too much cause I, I, I, I'm, you know, working and getting promoted. So I got some stuff going.

1:50:46 You know, all would work. So, nice.

1:50:47 Okay.

1:50:49 So, yeah. So, and yeah, and a bunch of changes too.

1:50:53 So, but, but yeah, I mean, I, I, thoroughly enjoyed the show uh as usual i did go back and watch because when i was watching the the opening match uh my my thoughts that went through my head when was when he hit the go to sleep it took him forever to get to the count to sorry to the uh took him to forever to get to the pin yeah so i'm like this is usually the spot where the guy kicks out because it's taking you know because he injured him enough you know and i'm like are they're going to give that spot to uh to Bobby Fish. And then, you know, it was like the kick out at, you know, a little bit past three.

1:51:32 And I'm like, well, you know, what are they trying to say here? And, you know, so I thought, oh, you know, maybe, you know, they're trying to save face that, you know, it took him seven seconds to get to him. So, you know, he was able to recover enough, but not enough, you know, but.

1:51:47 But not enough to beat the count.

1:51:49 Yeah.

1:51:49 Uh, but then you brought up the, uh, if he got, if he got, um, you know, not silly. And then when I went, I went back to watch it and he is grabbing his, the back of his head.

1:51:58 Uh, after, after the count.

1:52:00 So it, and, and the way that they shot it was very tight on punk. So you can see anything else that was going on in the ring.

1:52:08 So.

1:52:09 Yep. Yeah. So I left that a possibility open. And like I said, I'll, I'll ask around.

1:52:14 Yeah.

1:52:15 Um but uh but i mean because at first i was going to give thumbs up for like hey you know that that's an interesting way it's a different type of finish and i could understand why they did it and i'm like oh wait a minute.

1:52:25 Yeah but um uh the uh the on the uh i'll.

1:52:34 Just say on the um cody road thing i i think i'm gonna take a uh 1,000-yard stance on that because I have no idea what's going on. I don't know what is real, what is going on. Because, I mean, you know, the fact that he comes out dressed as the Homelander and some of the stuff is like, I mean, it's impossible to be that unselfaware if that's not something you're doing on purpose. You know, so there's some stuff that I'm listening to that promo he's doing. I'm like, okay, well, that's kind of designed to, you know, get you know, a heel reaction. But, you know, then he says, so it was kind of like really back and forth the whole thing. And I'm like, okay, I got to see how this plays out because either he really is one

1:53:20 of the dumbest humans being beings on the planet or, you know, one of the most blind human beings on the planet, or, you know, he's, uh, you know, there's something else going on. So I'm definitely approaching a, you know, um, taking a 1,000-yard stance from that until I figure out what the hell is going on.

1:53:39 Cody was seen as a quirky guy in WWE. He thought more of himself than ultimately management did. Sometimes that stuff is proven wrong, and other times it plays better in a different setting, and other times it's proven true. We'll see what's going on here, but it's a weird mid-30s crisis with Cody that we're all kind of getting to experience here. And I don't know how it ends.

1:54:08 I don't know what the next chapter is. I mean, I'm largely with you, Javier. I mean, I liked it. It's interesting. It's fun to talk through. He's an interesting person, you know, and Roads to the Top gave us more of a window into him. He's got, I mean, he's smart. He's not dumb. But there's smart people who aren't socially really aware or are, you know, narcissistic in kind of a quirky way where they don't, can't self-diagnose what's going on at all. And You know, like you said, the ring gear, the outfits and the ring entrance and just everything being so grandiose and not really seeing that might be an issue. And then even I mean, it almost seemed like we haven't brought this up yet, but maybe

1:54:47 the neck tattoo was the turning point. You know, that might have been when people like, whoa, what? And there's just there's been now it changed the way people looked at him. And there's been a bunch of affirming moments that led people to go, yeah, I kind of want to boo this guy now.

1:55:02 Yeah, and I think someone earlier mentioned, I think the entire thing boils down to whether people see if he's cool or not. When he's doing stuff and he's being cool about it, then people are with him. When we were down here in Miami, people were singing along with his song like they sang along with Jericho's. So people are willing to go with him if he.

1:55:29 Comes out as cool.

1:55:31 Uh, you know, and, and, and I'm, I'm thinking that, you know, playing more into the whole Glock thing, because that thing got really over and I'm like, you know, you, you want, you want to, you know, help, help him out, have Arne Anderson come out first. Instead of doing that, that, that all that, that intro that he has have Arne Anderson come out first, the people are going to be chanting, you know, you know, get the Glock. he does the finger thing and then like, you know, shoots at the ring and then Cody just runs past them. Like, you know, like if, you know, he's shooting and Cody's the bullet and then people aren't like that, you know, cause, cause that, you know, it, you know, that, that'd be cool, you know?

1:56:07 And I think people, cause whenever he's mentioned, you know, the, though, I don't want to turn heel. That's when people really, you know, turning on him. I think people don't want the meta stuff, like you say, and just want, you.

1:56:18 Know, be, be cool, Cody, be cool.

1:56:20 You don't have to, you know, do all the meta stuff.

1:56:23 And I don't think we should underestimate the potential that there's some snickering going on among EVPs and others in the company, kind of looking at Cody flailing a little bit here and enjoying it, and that that is playing into Cody then really digging his heels in and wanting to force and make what he wants happen happen and show he can do it. And this is where it just kind of comes down to Tony's leadership. and his respect for Cody and they're you know pretty close contemporary wise in age Tony's a little bit older but I think there's a you know a respect that Tony has for Cody and the legacy but also he probably has some opinions on dealing with Brandy and the EVP infighting that was rumored and denied and then sort of confirmed

1:57:11 so yeah I don't know anyway Jake anything more you want to add as we've continued this conversation yeah I guess it's.

1:57:19 I don't know which of the EVPs aren't flailing at this point. It's one of those things where they all kind of came into the formation of AEW with so much goodwill.

1:57:35 From fans.

1:57:35 And I think they managed to hold on to quite a bit of it. AEW is an amazing success story for a startup wrestling company that's only a couple of years old. But I think the major questions were people have essentially been trained to think of WWE and its employees as heels over the years. They've always been represented on television as being the enemy of the fans. And I think AEW has gone well out of their way to conjure the opposite opinion. opinion among the EVPs and, of course, Tony Khan. They try their hardest to be a fan-friendly company. But along the way, over the next years in this journey of trying to grow this company, eventually, some or all of them are going to are going to make unpopular decisions and how how they react to

1:58:33 that and how they pivot from that is is going to define the company and i think cody is the first example of somebody who is in you know a bit of a i don't want to say panic mode or crisis mode but he's he's made some decisions that have sort of diverged him from the bulk of the fans of the company and how does he recover from that how does he How does he react to that?

1:58:55 I think it's going to clarify for a lot of people how they should feel about him.

1:58:59 Because I think he came.

1:59:01 Into this being the guy that accepted the bet from Dave Belter that became the all-in show that later became this company. And I think fan opinion of him has shifted as time has gone on, as we've already talked about, because of the self-awareness problems.

1:59:19 But Ken.

1:59:20 you know, can he save that reputation? I guess, you know, time will tell. I hope he can because I think, you know, there's a lot of promising talent that you can see very clearly when Cody's on screen, but he does make some baffling decisions at times.

1:59:33 Yeah.

1:59:35 You know that last segment you're just listening to and the next one that you're waiting to listen to? Those can be one second apart with a VIP membership. You can unlock our commercial-free versions of our shows. PWTorch.com slash GoVIP tells you how to do it. That's PWTorch.com Go to pwtorch.com slash govip for full details on all the options to listen commercial free and with upper tier options, unlock our VIP exclusive podcasts that run throughout the week every week. All right, Javier.

2:00:21 And on the other side of that coin, I thought this was Malachi Black's best promo. I love when he said, I made them hate you. Or something along those lines. It was straight. It was to the point. While still having that tinge of menace to it. It might be my favorite promo that he's done to not know them.

2:00:45 Jake, what do you think of Malachi tonight and Malachi and his trajectory in general and what the Cody feud might have to do with as far as that goes?

2:00:53 I still don't know why the hell he's so angry with Cody Rhodes to begin with.

2:00:58 That's where I get lost with Malachi Black.

2:01:01 He appears in the company, he kicks Cody and Arne Anderson's teeth in, and then we go on this multi-month journey where he never really explains why he came in and did it in the first place.

2:01:13 I feel like everything we've learned about.

2:01:15 Malachi Black has been in the context of his hatred of Cody Rhodes, but we don't know why he hates Cody Rhodes, and therefore we don't really know anything about Malachi Black.

2:01:24 And he's an.

2:01:24 Amazing performer, and the visual presentation is fascinating. I just don't feel like I know enough about the guy to make a call on him.

2:01:32 His closing line tonight was, if you think this was about pinfalls, folks, think again. So I guess in a way he's still being cryptic, and maybe they still plan to tell that story. And answer your question.

2:01:43 I think being cryptic is fine, but you have to, I mean, if you're going to plant seeds like that, you have to germinate and grow them into something. You can't just perpetually be cryptic because eventually people just grow tired of it.

2:01:54 Totally. No, I agree with that.

2:01:56 Javier.

2:01:57 And I put me down for someone who really enjoyed the main event, along with Tyler.

2:02:04 His report.

2:02:05 So he said that he was going to get a lot of hate on that. And I'm like, no, you're not going to get any hate from me because I actually enjoyed it. The only thing is that it does feel like they kind of aired stuff out of order because sometimes it feels like they have an idea of what they want to do, but then, like, the dates don't line up.

2:02:22 So it really.

2:02:24 Felt like that Hammond Page promo should have come out, like, after the Halloween episode. And in a way, I'm kind of glad that this episode served to, like, you know, bring down the heat a little bit because you still have two weeks left to go. And I, you know, I'd rather, you know, you know, slow things down a little bit so you can gather momentum again towards, you know, towards the end, because, you know, sometimes you don't want to peter out too early. But I definitely would have preferred like like the you know, then the switch, the the the the the Halloween episode and the and the hammer page promo.

2:03:06 Yeah, and Tyler in his report, he said, that was plain fun, and if you can't see that, I feel bad for you. And I think, as Jake and I talked about earlier, and Cullors too, I think the issue is, is this a world title feud level? Does this kind of fun, which anyone involved in it and anyone enjoying it, as evidenced by Tyler saying it, it's going to be divisive.

2:03:30 It's going to be polarizing. Some are going to like it, some are going to definitely not like it. Do you want your world title program heading into a pay-per-view to have the two people involved in it involved in this kind of, you know, Halloween ha-ha fun shenanigans? And then you also have the issue of, you know, are you counter-programming WWE well when you engage in some of this stuff?

2:03:47 But that's another topic and more subjective and less knowable. But I think the issue isn't this wasn't fun. The issue is does this belong as a main event featuring your next pay-per-view main event? with your world champion, who's already seen as, disappointingly, more of a goof and a flake than people were hoping, based on his New Japan work, and he seems to just want to be self-indulgent and have fun doing his thing, being his own person, and being his authentic self, but is that productive towards the pay-per-view buys, just based on his New Japan rep of being the best belt machine, and hey, some good work in AEW. And then Hangman Page, like you said, just the reverse order. You know, maybe have this, it's too

2:04:25 bad Halloween wasn't two weeks ago, so Hangman Page could have fun with him, and then cut the promo that he made two shows ago tonight.

2:04:31 Yeah, because that.

2:04:33 Because I like the fact that he's tying things up with the Dark Order before, you know, because he left them in a bad place. He basically started a dark order civil war when he left. So he left them in a bad place. And so I am glad that they got one over on the Young Bucks and the rest of the elites. Um, you know, and, and, but then, you know, from that point, you know, I, I, at this point, especially with only two weeks left to go at this point, it's like, okay, you know, uh, move on from that. So, uh, but I mean, you know, if this were like the go home week, I'd be like, yeah, no, this is crazy.

2:05:12 What the hell are you doing?

2:05:13 But because we've got two more weeks and.

2:05:15 This was a holiday.

2:05:16 Um, and now, and weirdly enough, I'm almost, I almost would have preferred this not be the main event for today, but like be the main event for rampage. Uh, I, I guess it's because the rampage is like more like the B chef. I would have preferred to.

2:05:27 See it on there.

2:05:28 Yep.

2:05:29 Yep. All right.

2:05:30 Cool.

2:05:30 Javier, anything else?

2:05:32 No, I think that's pretty much it. Yeah, I don't have too many notes. All right.

2:05:38 Cool.

2:05:39 Yeah, that's pretty much what I had. Cool.

2:05:40 Well, always good to hear from you.

2:05:41 All right, guys.

2:05:42 Good luck at work.

2:05:42 Have a good night.

2:05:43 Yeah, good luck with everything going on at work, too.

2:05:45 Thank you. And good talking to you again, Jake. Been a while.

2:05:48 Thanks, Javier. Take care.

2:05:50 All right.

2:05:50 Very good. Let's wrap up here with a few emails. And I did say we had some Cody messages. So let's just get to them. I'll run through them, Jake. We'll see if we have anything to add. John from Tennessee. This Cody promo is absolutely awful. Bringing up not only turning heel in the middle of the ring and saying all this other nonsense is just making people dislike him even more. He really thinks he's on the level of current long-established stars like John Cena, Randy Orton, etc., but he's not even in the ballpark. They were top guys on national TV for years while Cody was a mid-card act, which he currently still is on this show. He's much closer to Jeff Jarrett than Cena or Orton. In all your years of covering wrestling, have you ever seen a

2:06:26 wrestler more clueless about their position in the business than this guy? Thanks for all the great content. Your flagship yesterday with Jason Powell was excellent. As always, go VIP, people. Thank you, John. PWTorch.com slash go VIP. I Jake, I mean, part of this is like, I think fans just kind of want Cody to just go, go work hard for two, three years. And then, and then, you know, just, just stop talking about your legacy. Stop doing meta stuff. Just, just go wrestle and build up more of a legacy of a top star. And it does feel like Cody's three or four years ahead of the fans in terms of his body of work. And I think that is a contributing factor that John points out here.

2:07:05 Yeah, he's in this sort of self-imposed exile from the main event. I mean, I think when AEW first began, he basically had the one title match and then swore if he didn't win that he'd never challenge again.

2:07:21 And here we are. He's been sort of in this.

2:07:26 I guess I've heard it termed by more than one person, and I've used the term myself, the Codyverse, where it seems like his... his angles and programs seem to be divorced from the rest of the show and happen in their own separate kind of pocket universe of sorts. And so I think people have just grown weary of that.

2:07:48 I mean, and a lot of it they covered on his reality show, you know, talking about the the QT Marshall and the Anthony and go, go stuff and his own, you know, he, his own sort of infatuation with elevating people and, and then not really even accomplishing it when he, when he attempts it. And so I'm, I'm sort of at a place with Cody where it's like, yeah, I completely sympathize with the, with people who say that he's, he's, you know, he's completely out. You know, I, I'm trying to think of the correct term. He, he, he's, He thinks he's in one place, and I think fans have recognized that he's sort of categorized himself and put himself into a box of being this mid-card guy who occasionally has programs with main eventers, and that's where he is.

2:08:37 But whenever he's cutting a promo, you look at the entrance, you look at the gear, you look at the presentation. And it's like clearly this guy thinks he is on a level that nobody else.

2:08:47 In the company is.

2:08:49 Even CM Punk and Bryan Danielson come out of the traditional heel and babyface entrance ramps, and Cody has the custom entrance where he comes out of the middle and the elaborate entrance music and the entourage that accompanies him to the ring. It's all very tone-deaf stuff, and I don't know how you extricate yourself from that unless– you're willing to humble yourself in front of the audience and admit that you've made some miscalculations or just go ahead and do the damn heel turn because another year, another year or two down the road, you can be a baby face again when people are ready for it. I, I think there's, there's a lot of, you know, these, he's put himself into a very narrow box and then

2:09:31 he's complaining about fans resisting, you know, being told how to think about him. And I think that's, that's something that he's got to work through on a personal level.

2:09:41 And Triple H's body of work was better than Cody's, you know, at this age. I mean, Triple H had done a lot more than, I mean, do you agree with that?

2:09:50 No, I agree.

2:09:51 I can't tell if he hates Triple H or if he's infatuated with the guy. Sometimes it's both at once. Yeah, it seems like he craves his approval. And at other times he rejects, you know, his management style and his eye for talent and things along those lines.

2:10:08 And so I think you're right. Maybe it is both.

2:10:10 Yeah.

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2:10:50 All right, up next, Chris A. says, what am I missing with Cody's promo? Maybe it's just too meta, like you said before. But saying Dustin and Dusty are and were both better than him means what exactly? Although he didn't say Dustin is better. He said he's probably better. Like, I was like, oh, nice hedge on your older brother.

2:11:07 Is he expecting someone to argue against that opinion? His match versus his brother was great, but I can't remember the last match he was in that I cared about. Other than the ones versus Black, of course, that he deserved to lose. But before that, what, Brodie Lee? So, you know, this plays into it. I if Cody had come out tonight with no entrance music and just said, all right, you know what? Cheer me or boo me.

2:11:27 I'm just going to go to work. I just want to win some matches. And, uh, and, and, you know, let's revisit this. Once I kind of get my head on straight, I've had, I've had a crazy couple of years. It's been a crazy couple of years, um, with COVID and becoming a dad. And yes, this AW thing took off and it gave me some, some other opportunities and I took them, but I just want to get back to having matches and, and, and try to build up a winning streak. And so that's all I'm going to say.

2:11:52 And I'm going to walk out of here, cheer boo, but you'll see me next week. Cause I'm, I'm, I'm going to bring it in the ring. Just something like that stripped down and organic. He can't get rid of the tattoo on his neck, but you know, if he said, I'm going to start having it removed, that might also get a big pop. That'd be quite the process.

2:12:10 Yeah.

2:12:11 I think the tattoo might be one of the most unpopular things he's ever done.

2:12:15 Yeah.

2:12:15 Yeah.

2:12:16 I mean, I remember, I think, well, it was just before Revolution in Atlanta that it happened. And I can't remember one positive take on it. Like, oh, man, I can't wait to see what his next one is.

2:12:33 Nobody said that. It was bizarre.

2:12:36 And even his wife, who didn't like it and said, I don't like it, but he makes his own decisions. Like, man, what a public endorsement that was.

2:12:43 Yes.

2:12:44 All right, JB says, if I took anything away from Cody's promo, it's that he's treading dangerously close to apathy if he delays leaning fully heel too much longer. There were certainly boos for him, but they weren't sustained. They'd be clearly audible as soon as he spoke, but would die as quickly immediately when he stopped speaking. In my opinion, this is actually the worst possible scenario for him. People always said that about Reigns and Cena. At least they're getting a response. I'm like, well, right, that's your second choice.

2:13:07 Your number one choice is fans cheer or boo based on the fact that you have slotted them in a certain way. And you show that you're in touch with your audience and they're not, you know, booing a heel who's facing a heel or cheering a heel who's against a face. You know, you want things to be in line with clearly how they're being presented and framed on TV.

2:13:27 With Cody, he's being framed as a baby face still by the announcers, although their credibility is a bit on the line here. So anyway, I guess, yeah, Jake, just that aspect of it is Cody. potentially causing apathy as opposed to what could have been a fun heel turn, like if he waits too long. Yeah, I think that's possible.

2:13:45 I guess based on what the live correspondent said, I think there may be a difference in perception between what was happening in the building and what the TV microphones were picking up. I don't know if they were doing some kind of isolation there that might have made him more audible to the home audience than he was in the building, but certainly– It sounds like he was getting booed pretty consistently, and yet, like you mentioned from the TV cameras, as soon as he spoke, it seemed like he came through more clearly on television. So I'm wondering if the live audience wasn't getting.

2:14:23 Picked up particularly well by the microphones in the building. He adds, I could have done without Dark Order and Elite's costume match. It felt way too WWE obligatory holiday match for me. I get that John Silver's a goof and it's a fine mid-card gimmick, but please keep him and his friends away from Adam Page. the Elite, and the main event picture in general, if this is how they want to portray themselves, especially as the main event of Dynamite. I'm with JR on the nonsense. It was overbooking at the end. Proton packs? The Dark Order swaying in the middle of the ring, waiting for the Elite to pancake them? The only redeeming factor was Hangman's appearance, which got a great reaction and somewhat saved that ridiculous

2:14:58 match and angle. So yeah, I mean, JB's kind of in line with my thinking. The crowd was like, you know, we kind of like Dark Order, but I don't know, it's a little cheesy. And I definitely didn't like the Dark Order just standing and swaying in the middle of the ring, and then the Bucks just leaving them, you know, all four, leaving them hanging there, having to stand there ridiculously as they, you know, mugged for the cameras and the crowd, milked the moment before doing the kick. It just totally turned it into a cartoon. But I sort of think Hangman Page can do no wrong. You know, I think Hangman is who Cody wanted to be at this point. And, you know, Hangman, in a way, has stole his thunder, as have some other big signings. Jake,

2:15:35 any thoughts on that?

2:15:36 Yeah.

2:15:37 I'm trying to think of the way Steve Austin has spoken. He's notoriously been very protective of his image and presentation over the years during his peak run in the company. The way that he described building towards main event programs was essentially it's like building a fire.

2:16:02 Your job is.

2:16:05 You know, every week heading into a major event is to go out there and throw more fuel on the fire. I think he might've said throw more gas on the fire, but the same idea. And, and it's something that, you know, the Javier said earlier, where it was like, he, he was okay with them cooling this off with this kind of silliness because they still had two weeks to go until the pay-per-view. And I guess, you know, the way I think, and I think I agree with Steve Austin's take is that you know, you should be ratcheting up the pressure on a major program like this every opportunity you get. And so from my mind, I'm with you, excuse me, in the sense that I think I don't really view it as, oh, this was a failure. Like

2:16:48 there were no redeeming qualities of this main event. It wasn't entertaining. None of that would be true. But I do see it as a pretty huge missed opportunity to continue to ratchet up the pressure on what, you know, a lot of people think is the best program in wrestling. And I think, you know, When I see things like this take place, and I see it as kind of a whiff, a swing and a miss, it's like, man, you're only three weeks from the pay-per-view. You have quite potentially one of the most emotional payoffs in company history coming at full gear. why, why not continue to frame that in the way you want fans to perceive it at every opportunity? I don't know why a holiday themed episode, you know, couldn't be used in a way that still

2:17:31 effectively move the program forward. And I, I just didn't see that happening on the main event here tonight.

2:17:36 There are bigger priorities than having fun because you finally have an excuse to dress up as, as in, in silly animal outfits and costumes in, in, in that, you know, you're just waiting for an excuse to do that. And, Sometimes you, you know, you'd like to see the people high up on the card sacrifice that sort of fun indulgence for keeping their eye on the ball and adding fuel to the fire uh fuel uh gasoline to the fire all right uh zach in texas says gentlemen i have to say serena devon and kurushita killed it the match was great i loved all the um I loved it.

2:18:05 Ross made a reference to that, by the way. But I'm glad they did.

2:18:07 Yeah.

2:18:07 Anything on that, Jake?

2:18:26 I mean, I've already gone out of my way to profusely put over Serena Deeb.

2:18:31 I think she's fantastic.

2:18:32 I don't know if this is going to be a long-term program. I'm assuming they'll have a rubber match eventually, but I'm really looking forward to it.

2:18:40 And we'll close here. Mike in Chesapeake, Virginia says, I've been a diehard Kenny Omega fan and defender for years, but tonight I hit my breaking point. I've come to terms with the fact that he does not have what it takes to be a true top guy for a wrestling promotion in the U.S., Maybe he should dress up as Roman Reigns for Halloween so he can learn how to carry himself like a real main event world champion for at least one night.

2:19:00 Wow.

2:19:00 I apologize for the negativity, but Omega and the world title felt like such a joke. Keep up the great work and everybody go VIP. Kenny's a heel, but you don't want people to just look at him as low rent. And, you know, I've said, you know, goof and flake and self-indulgent and all that stuff about him, but you can survive all that. I don't know if you can survive being seen as low rent. And I'm starting, I think there's sort of a sense of, you know, he's not a serious person and it's starting to feel a little low rent, what the situations he puts himself in and how unserious a person he seems to be at a time when he's been given this mantle that, you know, people, you know, cherish who respect this business and kind of

2:19:49 understand how the U.S. money-making machinery works.

2:19:53 I think Roman Reigns is an interesting comparison because you look at some of the things that he did as the company guy over the years, whether it's suffering succotash or having dog food rubbed on his face or any of the many preposterous situations WWE put Roman Reigns in trying to get him over as the next guy. I mean, it wasn't until, you know, he was forced to take a break due to the recurrence of his leukemia. And, you know, he came back and it seemed like he asserted more control over his presentation and his image. And I think, you know, it says a lot to me that when he took control of his presentation and his image, and I think Paul Heyman has a lot to do with his current presentation as well, It improved dramatically. And

2:20:51 with Kenny Omega, I think he currently has a lot of control over his presentation and his image. And it's bad. He has bad instincts about his own character. And I think the opposite may be necessary. Somebody like Tony Khan or anybody else in that company who can bend Kenny's ear is has to refocus him somehow because we know what kenny omega is capable of in the ring there aren't there aren't any you know maybe one or two people you'd put in that same category of being able to consistently deliver fantastic matches with a variety of opponents in main event high pressure situations he's one of the best in the world there's no doubt about that but when it comes to the character work which in my

2:21:37 opinion is just as important as the ring work in terms of expanding and growing a wrestling promotion he doesn't seem to have the right instincts to get that job done. And so I'm with the emailer. I think there needs to be a change of pace for Kenny Omega, and that means taking the title off of him, refocusing him, and then eventually pointing him back towards that main event. But, I mean, you could probably take a year or more off, and I feel like that would probably be worthwhile.

2:22:05 Yeah, I remember talking to somebody early on in AEW's run, and they hadn't been around Kenny before. Um, but you know, certainly knew of him and had high hopes for him. And he just said, he's, he's weird. Like, like, I'm not sure what to make of this guy. Um, and that's where, you know, I mean, Vince McMahon's a control freak, but you know, you want to have a strong leader who can also go, all right, here's 70% of you.

2:22:29 We want to cut out here's 30% of you. We're going to amplify, do whatever you want on your own hours. But when you're on a TV show that I negotiated and, And, you know, I'm trying to make money on, and it's, you know, going to make stars, and I need you to help this company grow. Here's the 30% of you I want to see on TV, and here's the 70% I don't want to see on TV. And, you know, you want to amplify the right aspects of people's personalities.

2:22:54 And I don't know that they've found a magic wand or the authority and leadership to do that with Kenny. And, you know, Mike is an example of someone kind of jumping off the Kenny bandwagon right now. All right, very good. We will halt there. Fun show. Dynamite gave us a lot to talk about, and we talked about it, Jake.

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