5 YRS AGO SMACKDOWN POST-SHOW: Keller & Meyers on whether Reigns addressed logic hole from Crown Jewel adequately, Becky-Charlotte-Sasha

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1:35 Now, PW Torch brings you the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show.

1:44 On today's Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show, five years ago flashback, we jump back to the SmackDown Post Show that live streamed on October 22nd, 2021. PW Torch's Mike Myers joined me, and we began by talking about whether SmackDown felt fresh after the draft and after Crown Jewel. Main topics included the final segment with a belt swap with Becky Lynch and Charlotte, how Sasha Banks fit in as a de facto babyface, and whether her character was being booked at the level her talent deserved. Also, whether the glaring logical from the previous night with Roman Reigns and Paul Heyman was addressed adequately on the show. New wrestlers, including what looked good so far with Hit Row, future Roman Reigns challengers, Drew McIntyre's role on SmackDown, and Quite

2:22 a bit about what's right and also what was wrong with Pat McAfee lately. Plus, what exactly did Aaliyah say in her soundbite? So let's get to it. This is the Wade Keller Pursing Post Show five years ago. Smackdown flashback for Thursday, October 22nd, 2026. So Mike, did it feel like a whole new beginning the day after Crown Jewel?

2:42 for I've, I don't know if it's the season premiere or the second season premiere or the season, the premiere before the season premiere, I saw an ad after SmackDown saying next week's the season premiere, but honestly, or more seriously, did it feel fresh to you watching the show?

2:58 Not exactly. Um, it was kind of fresh in how the opening segment had a, like a main event feel to it. Um, it was, it was a unique show. They, I thought it was interesting how much they kept throwing back over and over again to the events at crown jewel. And they let off with what is the main storyline going into and coming out of that event. But it definitely didn't feel like this, a season premiere or a season debut or whatever they're going to decide to call it.

3:35 I want to get the nomenclature, right. So the producers don't, you know, yell at me, but, um, They kind of dashed in just like seasoning the new acts who didn't even properly appear on the show, just like with really brief talking head segments. But apart from that, it just kind of picked up with where we left off at the pay-per-view. I say pay-per-view, the Crown Jewel show and before that, which nothing was really tied up there. So, no, I wouldn't say it felt like a new era for SmackDown.

4:11 Yeah, yeah.

4:12 I'm still, you know, I was looking forward to a fresh start. And it was weird because it felt like what we got was just a follow-up on Kronjul, which is fine and appropriate. But we still had Becky as a centerpiece for the main event. And then Brock Lesnar, who's not going to be around. And I figured they were going to suspend him after there'd be some angle to explain his absence because the way he lost, they're going to want him to get his, quote, heat back or his You know, he's going to want to respond to how he lost in a Brock Lesnar-like, sports entertainment-like way.

4:49 I don't know if sports entertainment is a word, but like, you know, he's not asking for another title shot. He's just beating people up so he can get suspended so they can explain why he's not going to be around until sometime next year. And so none of that surprised me. I think the average viewer, you know, would have been hooked on Juan Reigns and Heyman's performance. We'll get into some of the nuance of that and that. big gaping logical that Todd Martin brought up yesterday on the Fix and the Wade Keller podcast flagship, and if that was properly addressed. But, you know, the idea of, oh, you know, Brock tweeted he's going to show up and, you know, kick some ass was a hook. But in the end,

5:28 once SmackDown's over, you've got Becky leaving and Brock suspended. They subtracted two things. And then we got, you know, the debut of Hit Row on SmackDown. And some other wrestlers who, because of the last few weeks, I'm not quite sure who's been on what brand anyway. You know, like it's been kind of overlapped. But I know there's some new names, you know, Aaliyah and Ridge Holland. Were those the other two names besides Hit Row who were just called up?

5:59 Carrillo and Garza coming up as a tag team. Sheamus was in there with them as well.

6:05 Yeah, and I was thinking of like wrestlers who haven't been on Raw or SmackDown.

6:08 Oh, I see.

6:09 Yeah, like who are kind of the new acts. And so if you look at that, I mean, otherwise it's some shuffling. And, you know, they can frame it as, you know, oh, what a great acquisition for SmackDown. What a good get getting SmackDown. But when you just sort of flaunt, oh, yeah, we got Charlotte, but we're losing Becky.

6:23 And you got Drew, but we're suspending Brock indefinitely. I just don't know because they had advertised this as they were super excited about, you know, the new lay of the land. But to me, it's still McAfee going bonkers for Rick Boogs. And it's still Sami Zayn ranting and raving on the mic. And I don't mean this like even negatively because I'm fans of those acts for the most part. But it's more in the context of does this feel fresh and new? And that's kind of what I'm leading with because, well, I've got plenty of time to get into the details of the actual segments. But the overall vibe of the show, I don't feel– I don't think people come away feeling like, whoa, okay, I was sort of watching– here and there but i had

7:02 other things i kind of wanted to watch but this feels new and i just feel like the big stories of the show were becky subtracted and lesnar subtracted and then some people who may or not have been around like i lost track the last few weeks since the draft are going to be around and then there's you know rich holland and alias and hit row as new names so to me it's like are you intrigued by them enough to go wow it's not stale it's fresh and i'm just not sure they did a great job in that respect You know, and it'll take a few weeks for it to kind of shake out because this was, again, sort of a transition show.

7:37 Yeah.

7:38 Well, it's a little weird because they did pump this show up as the series or season premiere, whatever. And then, like you said, they bookended the show with Brock and Becky. And by the way, that Brock and Roman segment. the first segment with Brock and Roman and Heyman was like 35 minutes.

8:03 Yeah.

8:04 I know that's my report. It's like, are 35 minutes in and it's still happening. Like it, it actually went a little longer than that.

8:09 I think.

8:10 Yeah.

8:11 Including like multiple replays and things that they were just hanging on to. Um, but yeah, like I said, they sprinkled in the new acts and for how they promoted, uh, this date and this episode of SmackDown as a premiere, uh, it felt like the actual premiere parts of it were just sprinkled in. And yeah, the, the subtraction, like you said, is, is a big, is a big point. But, uh, I think what they want to do is distract you with just the explosivity of Brock's appearance, even if it's the last we see of him for a while. Yeah.

8:46 And, and I'm not, again, I'm not even sort of saying they made the wrong moves as much as it just didn't necessarily seem in sync with the, what they advertised or what I think they, were trying, well, maybe they, maybe I'm critiquing their execution. I mean, I think you should have done a segment trading the belts and had a kind of a formal goodbye for Becky to explain the switch and not just have a photo on Twitter or Instagram, you know, where they're trading belts. And I think you want to follow up on Crown Jewel and getting Brock from Saudi Arabia to Wichita, Kansas, you know, as McAfee gushed in a very heavy handed way about, can you believe it? No other league, which is what AW calls themselves, league, He might have meant like National

9:23 Football League or something, but it came across potentially otherwise, you know, could do what we did. And it felt sort of, well, now I'm getting more specific instead of broad, but it felt a little tone deaf given the controversial nature of WWE, you know, taking money from Saudi Arabia. It's been nicknamed, you know, Crown Jewel's been nicknamed blood money, all the Saudi events. And, you know, for McAfee to just proudly, boldly proclaim no one else would do this, I don't think he understands that that plays two ways.

9:50 And one isn't very good.

9:52 Yeah, I want to make a specific point about that and that McAfee segment. Um, if I'm not doing the post show with you or Zach, I don't make a specific point to like really tune into the commentary. Um, because it's, it feels really WWE and scripted and whatnot, but I do on nights like tonight. And I had, My jaw kind of dropped when I first went through that segment, and I had to rewind it to really, really drill into what McAfee was saying, because my first impression was that he was saying no one would go to Saudi Arabia, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, and he really enunciated it.

10:34 He was yelling the city and the country, and I thought he was bragging about how no one else would dare just put on a great show in Saudi Arabia. That's what it sounded like to me. And I couldn't believe that that would be. And then I found out he was talking more about the logistics. Yes, it was so slippery that it was worded and how enthusiastic he was that. Like, I'm more than a casual viewer and I don't want I hate to think what.

11:05 So.

11:07 Me might have taken that how that sounded, it was a dangerous way to phrase all that.

11:13 It totally was. I mean, it's a long flight. You can Google it. How long is a flight from Saudi Arabia to the United States, the East Coast, much less Wichita, Kansas in the heart of America. But it is, I mean, a long flight. And so when McAfee said, oh yeah, Michael Cole is crazy. You're able to do commentary there and be back here. I want to give credit to Michael Cole, he immediately pivoted and said, what about the superstars?

11:46 You know, like he immediately like said, Oh, I'm just sitting in a chair, you know, like it, you know, that was the implication and McAfee was kind of putting over Cole. So a little Pat, a little, uh, you know, tip of the hat to Cole took, you know, shining the spotlight where it belongs on the wrestlers who, who are, you know, performing in the ring. I'm not sure how many of them, I guess, Drew McIntyre, um, Who else? Actually, who wrestled? Who wrestled on Crown Jewel? Who wrestled tonight?

12:15 Drew McIntyre.

12:17 Mansoor and Ali.

12:19 Oh, yeah, yeah. There you go. Mansoor and Ali.

12:20 And I think that's it.

12:22 Because Nakamura didn't, right?

12:24 I don't think so. No.

12:26 Corbin didn't.

12:27 Hit Rowell wasn't there. Yeah. I don't think the two jobbers were there.

12:30 All right, so I give credit to Michael Cole. I'm giving Michael credit. Michael Cole's the guy who really did deserve the praise. No, there's... One, two, three, how many did we say? Sorry, Mansoor, Ali, Drew, and who else wrestled that was on that show? I thought you said one other.

12:49 Oh, I said I don't think the jobbers from the Hit Row segment were there, nor were Hit Row. It's three in my count.

12:55 Yep, okay.

12:56 So, yeah, I mean, but still. Okay, so credit to Cole and Drew and Ali and Mansoor, those four especially. So I'm putting Cole in the top four. I mean, it is impressive. That's a lot of travel. You know, no one has asked to do a marathon match tonight or anything like that. But yeah, so getting back to the point, though, logistically, yes, that was impressive. But McAfee came across perhaps a little tone deaf to, you know, because I think part of what people like about McAfee is he seems like a smart, witty, big fan who loves the product. He loves WWE. And that's in a category different than he loves getting paid to be a shill.

13:41 And he is a shameless shill. Because I think that's how a lot of viewers feel about WWE announcers. And I think there's real value in having an announcer who doesn't feel that way. Now, others have said, no, McAfee, it's always come across as a shill to me, and you guys have just been fooled, or you're cherry-picking things he says and ignoring others. Fair enough, that might be true, but it might be true that we're being selective in what we praise because it stands out because there is a level of wit and bravado and charisma and charm to the way that he does things. But I just think some fans like to watch a show where they feel the announcer is a big fan. I think he gets points for that. Whether it's genuine or not, it

14:19 doesn't even matter. I mean, he just, he comes across as a guy who's genuinely a fan. So when he strays into corporate shill, instead of the buddy who just loves the product, who when you go to lunch, it's all he can talk about is WWE, that's a setback for him. And I thought it was a setback having him in a, like you said, gush about the logistics, but in reality, it came across like, he's like, no one else would dare go to Saudi Arabia like us.

14:43 It's like, whoa. And you had to rewind to make sure you heard right.

14:47 Yeah. I think he could have expressed the same sentiment with a little switcheroo on the wording here and there. I think that you said he comes off as genuine and I, to me, a lot of the time he comes off as very off the cuff and that goes a long way as well.

15:05 That's a good point.

15:05 Yeah.

15:06 Yeah. Like he has some agency. There's a sense he has a little agency to say what he wants. And Vince isn't going to dare say anything because he'll just, you know, call up his private jet and fly home and go screw you Vince. And I think people do like that too.

15:17 Yep.

15:18 And I do think it makes sense that he, his first instinct would be to compliment Cole because McAfee is a retired athlete, but now a broadcaster. Like, his whole life is broadcasting and it makes sense that he would kind of look up to Cole in the role he's in with WWE and think, how did you do this? Like, this is incredible. And I know the, the wrestlers deserve the most credit, but so does Cole, like you said, and that's what McAfee would think of.

15:47 I agree. I agree.

15:48 Okay.

15:48 Let's, let's introduce ourselves. We'll set the table. Then we'll get to our calls and emails and more topics. I have a lot I want to say about, uh, Roman Reigns, Paul Heyman, and Brock Lesnar. And a lot I want to say about the closing segment with Charlotte, Sasha, and Becky. We'll let callers and emailers kind of lead the way, and I'll make sure one way or another we get to it. Your time is valuable. Go VIP and listen to our shows commercial-free. A nice streamlined listening experience. pwtorch.com slash govip for full details on a commercial-free listening experience.

16:19 And with a full VIP membership, you can create custom feeds for individual shows or groups of shows by theme and also unlock nearly four decades of archives and access our ad-free website with VIP exclusive content. pwtorch.com slash govip. Your time is valuable, and that's one of the reasons we offer VIP membership. pwtorch.com slash govip. This is the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show for Friday, October 22nd, 2021.

16:52 And I'm Wade Keller, the host of the program, the host of the Wade Keller Podcast and Post Show, and the VIP shows, the Wade Keller Hotline, Post Pay-Per-View Roundtables, The Fix with Todd Martin, and Everything with Rich Fan, and also the editor of the Pro Wrestling Torch weekly newsletter and pwtorch.com. And I'm joined by Mike Myers, who is a contributor to pwtorch.com, covering WWE kickoff shows and...

17:15 WWE main event. Mike, how's main event been lately? I'll ask about you in a minute, but how's main event been lately?

17:23 Main event has gotten a bit repetitive. What I noticed tonight when I was going over the roster changes before SmackDown was that main event's got to have a roster change now because a lot of the main event regulars, there's kind of a rotation of the B to C level roster. wrestlers from Raw's roster are now on the SmackDown roster. So I think that's going to help spruce up main events. So I'm kind of looking forward to see, well, what that looks like next week. Yes.

17:57 Yep.

17:57 That is good. Who's, who's standing out in terms of good performances on main event that you think have been flying under the radar the last couple of months?

18:06 Well, Gulak is, is never featured on main TV, but he is a go-to guy who never disappoints. And I feel like he can do whatever they ask of him. They've been using Garza and Carrillo a lot, and they're actually developing chemistry as a tag team. They've each had a bunch of singles matches on main event, but they've been working tag teams on main event. and now tonight on SmackDown there, they've been drafted to SmackDown and we saw them cut one of those tiny, like mini promos backstage about how they're going to run through the tag division or whatever. So, um, that's good. And the commentary on main event, uh, recently described them as being telepathic in terms of how well they were working together. And

18:58 I really liked that. So, um, I say main event tends to be formulaic a lot of the time, but sometimes they do put work into established acts. And that's that's what I think is really good for those two guys, because they could be a really fun and entertaining tag team. So let's hope they do that on SmackDown now.

19:20 All right.

19:22 Very good. Mike, welcome. Welcome to the co-host chair. How are you doing?

19:26 I'm doing great, Wade. Thanks for asking. Me and Main Event.

19:29 Yes.

19:29 Good to be here.

19:31 Great.

19:32 So let's give out the phone numbers and email, and we'll get to it with more conversation here and reaction to SmackDown. Our phone number, if you're listening to us live, thank you. We're at wadekellerpostshow.com, live about five minutes after Raw, Dynamite, and SmackDown, usually Monday, Wednesdays, and Fridays, although I will be live tomorrow night after dynamite a special saturday edition before they move back to wednesdays next week hope you have a chance to join us live at least some of the time if you're one of our uh listeners who download the show uh afterwards uh you can again as i said you can find us at wadekellerpostshow.com even better you can get a link just a single click right to our live stream and If you go to PWTorch.com

20:11 and at the top and bottom of my TV reports on Raw, Dynamite, and SmackDown, the link is there. We also tweeted out at PWTorch near the end of Raw, Dynamite, and SmackDown. So lots of ways to find us, and we'd love to hear from some new voices and new callers. Even if you just drop in every once in a while, give your point of view or react to something we're saying.

20:32 The phone number to call us is 347-215-8558. That's 347-215-8558. When you call, push 1 on your keypad. You can also email us if that's easier for you. No excuse if you've got to get to bed or want to watch something else after wrestling. That totally makes sense. But there's no reason you can't also participate in the show with a quick email to us. And have your voice heard or your question asked. Wade Keller Podcast at PWTorch.com That's Wade Keller Podcast at PWTorch.com That's also the email just for general questions about anything in wrestling, a dark side of the ring or something having to do with Bound for Glory and Impact Wrestling or Ring of Honor or MLW for our flagship shows. We usually get to

21:16 emails in our flagship shows, and you're invited at any time to email a question or topic or a pithy commentary on something you want us to respond to. Okay, with all of that said, Let's begin going to phone calls. And like I said, we've got a lot left that we have not covered. We talked more broadly, a little bit specifically about McAfee. But there's some key segments to get to. We can also talk about some of the up-and-coming names who were called up or switched brands and if there is a fresh outlook for them on SmackDown.

21:51 But first up is Mike in Atlantic City. Mike, good to hear from you. It's been a little while. What did you think of SmackDown tonight?

22:00 How you doing, guys? I thought it was kind of different. I mean, that opening segment was awesome. You know, with Lesnar coming out or Reigns wanting Lesnar to come out and refusing to leave until he shows up. That felt like very Attitude Irish. So that was very different. Lesnar F-ing and doing the F-5 to Adam Pearce.

22:22 You know, I love that.

22:23 Adam Pearce is great. I mean, I'm going to heap praise on Lesnar and Reigns and Heyman later. Um, cause I mean, I certainly could have led with that. I mean, I just, it's self-evident how good they are right now. Um, Adam Pierce is just, I want to throw it. He is so good at his job. He is the best authority figure. I don't know if it all ball time, but certainly he's in the conversation. He's so every man, he's so corporate. Um, I've seen him like off camera and it's just like, that's him, you know, even though he was a wrestler and NBA champion, it's like, that's him, you know? And he just, he plays that part while he's a pro. And he took the F5, sold it like crazy. Sonya Deville, great, her reaction too. Anyway, yes,

23:03 glad you brought him up, Mike.

23:08 Yeah, him getting the F5, that was great. It just reminded me of that part, him being Vince and Brock being Austin. I think he would be a good heel, actually. And Lesnar, the badass, baby-faced Austin type kind of guy. I think that would be good. But then some stuff after that, Drew and Sammy, I thought that was a nice, fresh match. I enjoyed that match. And then you had Hit Row debuting. There were no squash matches. That felt different, and I enjoyed that. The squash matches are old school, so I really enjoy them. You should do more of them.

23:51 That's how you pump up talent.

23:52 Mike, I'm going to interrupt you again to interject this because it's so timely what you just said. um, on the, on the PW torch daily cast feed. And we have new show every day of the week, you know, that we post and I hope everybody listening and subscribing to it. There's some great hosts doing great work as part of the torch team on those shows. And Fridays is our best of show. When I pick something from the archives, usually it's five or 10 years ago on an anniversary date, but sometimes it's, it's current events related. It's pulling something from the archives related to what's going on today. But, um, Today's tonight's new best of PW torch live cast is from five years ago today. And it's an interview that

24:26 Pat McNeil and Jim Valley did with Randy Mulkey, who was like one of the best jobbers of all time in the eighties and Jim Crocker promotions. And, and he, he just, I did a five minute introduction to the show talking about the art of being a jobber, why jobbers should not be a derisive term. It's a, it should be a term of endearment. We shouldn't use, you know, enhancement talent. That's some sort of euphemism that supposedly is softer.

24:52 And like, it's just to me, that's patronizing. Like being a jobber is a job of pride. Randy Mulkey explains that in this interview. He says, you know, me and my brother, we knew we weren't going to be superstars. We weren't going to be big money guys. But we wanted to be reinvent bumping and make our opponents look like a million dollars. And they did. And so... I, I did my little, my, my biannual five minute, uh, plea for more, more squash matches and wrestling and more jobbers like the monkeys. Um, and you know, this was around the time, um, that, uh, um, uh, not Ellison. Uh, what, well, who was a jobber five years ago? Um, L Ellsworth, James Ellsworth. I had some NFL player in my head. Um,

25:33 James Ellsworth was in the mix, so the Mulkeys were often compared to him. So I'm glad you brought that up. It was fun to see a squash match back, and jobbers who we might never see again. It is an art, it is a craft, and it is timeless, and it should be brought back more often. And go subscribe to the PWTorch Daily Cast. Search PWTorch on your podcast app, and then you can download that and hear Randy Mulkey talk about who the stiffest opponent was he faced. And boy, did they get beat up by a lot of big names in the 80s, including the Road Warriors.

26:05 Now I'm done.

26:09 Good point.

26:11 It was a good tie-in. When they had the job reaction, I'm like, yes, this is perfect. It's perfect for this week's best of live cast selection. This is a great tie-in. It's as if I planned it.

26:21 Yeah, because I know I have friends, you know, I got friends that, You know, they just like AEW because there's no squash matches. They don't like WWE because, you know, sometimes they do like two minute matches and squash matches and they complain all the time about that. And I say, that's what makes classic pro wrestling. That's how you elevate talent and make pay-per-view seem more special. And that's why matches when they do big matches seem more big because squash matches elevate the talent and makes pay-per-views feel more special.

26:53 Yeah.

26:53 And I mean, how many matches with non-finishes or distraction finishes between the same people wrestling every week for nine minutes with a commercial break in the middle? Are you going to really endorse that instead of some awesome, pathetic, wimpy-looking jobbers flipping head over heels, taking a wild bump from a wrestler who gets to show off their finishers?

27:13 I mean, if that's the reason you're not watching wrestling, you're not a wrestling fan. You should want to see wrestlers get their ass kicked by bigger, badder people in just a plowing through them i'd much rather watch that than even steven back and forth pointless trading win matches where it's the same people facing each other every week for for seven to eleven minutes i mean that that it doesn't have to be binary between those things as aw shows um because aw does a better job of it with sort of hybrids um of those two extremes and that's good and that's worth advocating but you don't have to advocate for what aw does at the expense of classic one-sided you know wrestlers are plowing through others

27:51 i Mike, are you a fan of squash matches, or are you on the side of we're beyond that?

27:58 Oh, I'm absolutely a fan. I was thinking that having jobbers like that serves– it's a dual purpose. One, it lets the bigger stars showcase their moves in a way that you can see them at their most spectacular. If you've got a really good jobber in there who can bump around. And two, it keeps the stars separated.

28:19 Yes.

28:20 Because– since they're wrestling jobbers, they're not wrestling one another. And then when they get in the ring with one another, be it occasionally on TV or more often at a pay-per-view, it's got a much bigger impact. So I'm a big-time proponent.

28:35 Yep.

28:36 Well stated.

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29:00 Subscribe on iTunes, Stitcher, Downcast, and all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at PWBoom.com. Once again, that's PWBoom.com.

29:17 All right, Mike, back to you.

29:19 Yeah, to go back to the Reigns-Lesnar talk. Yeah, I remember a few weeks ago when you were saying, like, it'll be interesting to see how they book Roman Reigns going forward, like who he's going to feud with and stuff. But it's looking like, I think, Big E for Survivor Series and TLC. Well, I don't think they're doing TLC this year.

29:38 No, they're just doing the New Year's.

29:40 Year's New Year's Day the New Year's show the New Year's show they'll probably do like somebody maybe like Nakamura or Sheamus then I'm thinking Drew at the Rumble and then Lesnar at Mania so that's what I'm thinking like what are your thoughts about.

29:57 That yeah Mike what's your forecast for Roman Reigns opponents.

30:04 Yeah I that sounds just fine to me I McIntyre definitely is going to be in the mix soon we've got the weird Survivor Series interim between now and then and then like a placeholder I guess if you want to have something like that before the major pay-per-views but Yeah, that seems fine, and Lesnar's out of the picture indefinitely, as Adam Pearce told us. So yeah, maybe he'll come back, maybe at the Rumble, maybe at WrestleMania. But yeah, that sounds good to me, what Mike said.

30:47 Yeah, the only hesitation is just Drew being sort of a one-off at the Rumble. I worry about that because of the depth chart they have post-WrestleMania. I'd almost rather do some sort of storyline where Reigns shows some semblance of wanting to avoid Drew for some reason. And you either save it for Mania if you don't do Lesnar-Reigns in a rematch. Maybe they do Lesnar-Bobby-Lashley to be fresh.

31:11 And then you actually do Drew at Mania. I just don't know that they have the depth chart to, quote, relegate Drew to sort of a one-off or two-month feud with Reigns. That's just sort of a time filler until they get to the big star Brock Lesnar, who's a part-timer. So that's my hesitation there.

31:28 They could get a lot of mileage out of Drew, I think, should they decide to go that route. If they can get over the Lesnar idea and get back to the idea of how strong Drew has been for WWE, especially in the era when there was no fans in the audience and Drew was there like... No, no.

31:52 Mike, Mike, please. You've got to be on track with Dota B and how they talk.

31:56 Okay.

31:57 It wasn't when there weren't fans. It was through uncertain times.

32:00 Uncertain times.

32:01 Yes.

32:01 I thought you were going to say the Thunderdome era. No, no.

32:03 They don't say that either. That was not a thing. They do not.

32:06 That never happened.

32:08 Thunderdome was awesome. It was the best thing. We should thank Vince McMahon for Thunderdome. I pleaded with listeners if people weren't around listening to that. I pleaded with listeners to send handwritten thank you cards because Vince likes those a lot more than emails or tweets or texts.

32:22 It won awards. Yes, it was. It was.

32:24 It was award winning. And WWE was so proud of it until they disassembled it. And now it ceases to have existed. It was not a thing. You will not see highlights from it. They will not mention it. Those were just uncertain times that Drew McIntyre guided us through.

32:39 The uncertain times era.

32:41 We should call it that.

32:43 I mean.

32:44 the ruthless aggression era became a thing. And that was just a weird Vince thing, you know, that was in his mind, try to justify being, being a jerk in the business world. I gotta be ruthlessly aggressive. That's the only way to succeed. And it was like, that's some rationalization projection thing that he did. And now it's become the name of an era, which is just weird.

33:00 But anyway, well, whatever we're going to call the era, um, whether WWE labels it or we do, uh, drew is around every single week. So, uh, that's good for doing long-term business with Roman. Um, but it is going to be a big deal when Brock returns. And you mentioned a fresh matchup with Lashley, but I'm still, I still want to see what happens after tonight and the crown jewel show. Um, cause Brock clearly has not been vindicated and, um, I hope they, don't forget about that. And I hope they don't let the viewers forget about that because tonight I'm with Mike. I thought that opening segment was awesome.

33:48 And I thought that I saw a few complaints on the Twitter feed about how we're this far in SmackDown. There hasn't been one match, but I was, I was thinking if I'm attending this show in Wichita, I would rather see that a hundred times more than I'd rather see a WWE match.

34:09 Yeah.

34:10 For like a standard match at raw like that. You don't get to see Brock Lesnar come in and decimate a quarter of the WWE crew every single week. You know, that, that is an attraction event that, that, that opening 30 minutes or whatever. Um, so that I thought, I agree. I think that was a cool segment and I want to see what happens next. Um, Lesnar's a part-timer, so who knows when it'll be.

34:37 Keep in mind, they got the big outdoor stadium for Royal Rumble. It's outdoors, right? Um, the, the, uh, big stadium show. So at, uh, in Houston, is it Minute Maid Park? Yeah. And so I could see Lesnar, the rematch for Lesnar being there as Drew then wins the Rumble. Um, We have to see what the storyline is that they'll tell for the indefinite suspension being lifted and under what circumstances that happens. So you could have... I mean, it's no shame in headlining against Roman Reigns or co-headlining with Rumble Match itself if you're Drew McIntyre at Minute Maid's Stick Park. But to me, Drew's a full-time guy and buy rates aren't as important. So it's more they just want to sell a lot of tickets. And they can

35:24 sell a lot of tickets... with you know the rumble but i think you ideally you put drew you know give drew that wrestlemania moment to make him feel like a bigger star because as cool as it is to wrestle in front of a big outdoor stadium um for the royal rumble there's still more prestige and i think you get more of a rub from being on that wrestlemania poster and drew is young enough and important enough to wwe that to me that's a bit of a tiebreaker but you know there's a lot of other factors going in i'm sure they've mapped this out and have their reason for doing it the way they're doing it.

35:56 But it just feels like Drew being wedged in as almost a one-off with Reigns is less than ideal. Whereas with Lesnar, you want it to be a one-off. You know, you don't want to do two matches or three matches and have it drag on. But Drew can talk and you can tell a story and he's on a journey. Lesnar's just Lesnar. You know, he's just a badass who everybody's cheering for now.

36:18 Yeah. I still want to see Lesnar go through Roman and the UFOs.

36:24 Yes, yes.

36:26 Very good.

36:27 So, Mike, back to you. I'm sorry. Yeah, Mike in Atlantic City. I better clarify.

36:32 Yeah.

36:32 Yeah.

36:34 Yeah, we got two Mikes here.

36:35 Yeah.

36:35 Or you can call me Jersey Mike.

36:38 Yes.

36:40 Go ahead, Jersey Mike.

36:41 Back to you.

36:42 On the end. That sounds good.

36:44 Thank you. Yes.

36:45 And that's what they call me anyway, Jersey Mike.

36:50 Will you stop putting weird dressing on my subs, please? Thank you.

36:54 Oh, funny.

36:57 I cannot stop doing that because that is a Jersey thing.

37:00 Okay.

37:01 Fair enough.

37:02 Okay.

37:05 Things are getting touchy here. Things are getting intense. I'm going to put whatever I want on your damn sandwich, Mike. Go ahead, Jersey Mike.

37:19 Extra mayo. Does that sound good?

37:24 Mike?

37:25 No, it doesn't.

37:27 Just go to subway.

37:28 And that's also, I think, you know, I think you don't like mayonnaise.

37:33 I do not.

37:35 And he's serious about it. You can just see his expression sitting at home. Truth you, Mike, he's like, he's like, let's move on. You're not talking to me into liking mayo.

37:46 I guess he prefers mustard.

37:49 All right. All right.

37:50 Move on.

37:51 I got to move it on. Go ahead.

37:53 All right.

37:54 Yeah, let's go to the ending segment.

37:57 Yeah.

37:59 What do you guys think of the belts being swapped? I mean, I guess it was the right thing to do because I think they want Sasha and Belair both to be the chasers. So, you know, to have Sasha and Charlotte feud with Sasha the champion... They probably want it the other way around where Sasha's the chaser. And same with Bel Air and Becky. They want Bel Air to be the chaser. I think there's more money in that.

38:26 So I think they booked it right. So I guess really they had no other choice but, you know, just swap these belts. So I'm okay with that. And I'm excited for some future Sasha Charlotte matches. I mean, I mentioned a couple weeks ago they had some amazing matches. I think it was like in 2016. And Sasha's better now than ever.

38:47 So.

38:48 I can't imagine the Sasha Charlotte matches not being amazing now in 2021.

38:53 So your thoughts.

38:58 It's next-level coverage that you come to expect from the PW Torch brand. No AI, no rookie perspectives, no unfounded rumors, no clickbait, no deceptive headlines, just high-quality writing, breaking news, and fascinating flashbacks every day at pwtorch.com. Pull yourself away from the vacuous social media experience that I know many of you regret once you get lost in it for minutes, if not hours at a time, and settle in for high quality PW torch branded wrestling coverage.

39:31 Yeah.

39:31 Mike, what do you think about the belt swap tonight?

39:35 Well, I do prefer mustard to mayonnaise by a wide margin. First of all, as for the belt swap, yeah, it's silly that it came to this. So I guess let that be a lesson to any promotions who are just getting started now. If you're ever going to have divergent rosters and you're going to have a belt on each roster, maybe don't name them after the shows. And then this won't be such a big problem. That is the problem they're facing. So whatever. I don't really care how elegant they how elegantly they get out of that conundrum, you know, as long as they got out of it. And they did.

40:18 I was worried that it was going to be messier than it was, but they ended up, I stay cleanly swapping. There was some like weird bickering that they did to drag it out a little bit, but I'm just glad that they're, they're traded. They're separate. And Charlotte's here now. Becky's going to raw. And yeah, like Mike said, both of the top women's matchups look good. in the immediate future.

40:49 I don't know, Wade, you've already been talking about depth charts. I don't know how much further it can go beyond that. But they look good in the immediate future. So I'm just glad they got it over with and we don't have to speculate about how they're going to solve the problem. It's just whatever. It's done. They had to do it because of how they named the belts and the separate rosters.

41:11 It's a weird situation, but they've dealt with it. it kind of screws up the lineage of the belts. I get that, but whatever. Um, I'd rather that they dealt with it. It's fine.

41:24 Yeah.

41:25 I mean, it just, it's sort of like, you know, mayo or mustard. It's like, just, just whatever, let's just move on. You know, like that's how I felt about the belts. Like we talked about it for weeks and weeks. Are they going to change the belts, you know, to have someone from the brand, you know, who got drafted to a brand, beat somebody who's not on the brand.

41:40 And we concocted scenarios where that could have worked, uh, And they chose not to. So we got what we got tonight. And I am just glad we've decided what topping to put on the damn sandwich so we can just get to eating and stopping arguing about it. It is just like good. It's in the past. Like, is it ideal? I mean, I don't think it's that big of a deal to switch the belts that, you know, yes.

42:02 I mean, there's downsides. There's lineage. There's does it count as a new title reign or not? I remember New Day joked about that last time. But I just like my whole thought the last few weeks during the kind of this in between the draft and the draft taken effect period was, okay, we're getting some novel matchups on TV, which is a positive because things had gotten repetitive, but I just want things to be settled. It's like sometimes how I feel after the holidays. It's like all the planning, all the gifts, all the seeing relatives. It's fun. It's novel.

42:30 It's different, but there's something nice about getting back into a routine. And I'm just kind of ready for that routine. So let's just get everybody sorted out. Stop being on a show you're not on and let's just get to it. And And so at least I think that's where we're going to be after either tonight or after Monday, depending on how things go Monday. I don't know if there's any reason for any brand crossover still on Monday. So maybe we're finally to that stage. It would have been awkward if one of them lost the title to someone on the brand that the title belongs to and the other didn't. Would Becky have had to give up the belt and not have gotten one in return if Charlotte had lost it to, say, Sasha previously? Then there's a

43:14 whole conundrum there. So it's fine. It's not ideal. It's fine.

43:22 Yeah.

43:22 Anyway, I'm ready to not talk about it anymore. And I'm not against talking about it tonight, because I think it should be talked about for sure, and if WWE made the right choice. But I just want everyone to just get lined up with who they are. And from a depth chart standpoint... I mean, my issue is just, can WWE please get better at presenting likable women wrestlers? Like, you know, Bianca, they're doing a great job with, and it was a little shaky at the beginning, but I think Bianca's great. Her character's great. And Becky is a heel I want to watch, and, you know, I want to boo. You know, but with respect, Charlotte, I just want to boo, period. I think she's really good at being a heel right now, and her just, her just,

44:06 sappy or to her, just like just dripping with everything is sarcastic. And it's just like, I just, I'm not a fan of like people who everything is sarcastic and it's just, everything is a wind up in a sarcastic comment. So I'm all for paying money to see her get beat up. And I think that's a better role than talking like this constantly about the queen. So she's in a better place to Sasha. I don't know who she is.

44:28 I don't know what she stands for. She's just this feisty, great ring veteran, future Hall of Famer. I get all that, but give me a reason to cheer or boo her besides the context of who her opponent is. And I came out of tonight just being like, come on, can you just decide what she's going to be, what she's going to stand for, and give us a good reason to either like her or not like her, because I just feel torn constantly, and I think fans do too.

44:52 She's sort of like Seth Rollins. She's really good in the ring, so you want to cheer her, but her... baby face persona is either boring or not as dynamic or it just doesn't quite work based on the way that they present her and book her. So that's just my, I guess my critique of everything they did with the women is just, it's, yeah, Charlotte and Sasha can be fresh again, but I just need some sort of transitional reason to believe that I should be rooting for Sasha and give me a reason to besides she's really good and I like her, you know, because I know she has her fans who just, you know, regardless of how she's framed on TV, just love her. And I get that, but I think there's a larger audience out there who

45:31 want someone they can feel good about cheering. They just haven't done that with Sasha yet. So I'm curious if they plan to do that or if they're going to add some third aspect. But what is it, Tony Storm, Xia Li, Shotzi? I mean, they did not load up SmackDown with top candidates. I thought maybe they were going with Shayna Baszler turning babyface, but they don't. So I think Sasha's got to go babyface. Jersey Mike, what do you think?

45:56 That's the plan, I heard.

45:57 Yeah.

45:58 You get a touch on that, what you said about Sasha. I mean, what she said in the interview, she said, you can either boo me or you can cheer me. I'm just me.

46:08 I'm myself.

46:09 I'm the boss character, she said. It wasn't an interview that I watched, but I read that she said that in an interview, that it's just the boss character and you can boo her or you can cheer her. And I did watch her on The Bump. She was being interviewed promoting her match for Crown Jewel.

46:28 And i'm gonna be able to watch the.

46:29 Bump she's been on there several times wade yeah and she always comes off as she always comes off as so natural and real and you know she talks a lot of junk like the boss character would and she just makes it sound real like she but she really thinks that highly of herself but it doesn't sound scripted like she knows she'll talk about how she's going to whoop bel-air's butt and all that kind of stuff yeah and it just sounds real and i know you said how she sounds scripted sometimes on tv so i think sasha is one of them characters you know if you give her something that's scripted she might have a hard time with it but if you let her be herself then she'll sound great you know that's that's what i think.

47:17 Yeah And that's what A.W.

47:18 Gets credit for.

47:20 Letting wrestlers kind of find their voice and then actually bring that to the national TV show instead of the shoulder content where they shine, but it's raw talk or talking smack or bump. It's like, that person, put them on Friday nights in front of 2 million people.

47:35 And the way her character used to be, Wade, back when she was a babyface, when she first viewed it with Charlotte, back.

47:42 In 2016, I like the boss character.

47:50 It was too soft. I think the boss character that we have now is so much turned up. You know, it's turned up to like a 10 now. So no matter if she's like heel or face, I think she should stay the way she is now. I don't want her, you know, to turn baby face and then go back to a softer version of the boss character like we used to have. Because back then she was more smiley and Everything like that. She's not like that now. She should stay arrogant, but just not be, you know, talking trash to the fans and all that. She can be herself.

48:24 What I want is I want the way that they surround her to be consistent. You can say she needs to be consistent, but they need to surround her in a consistent way. So don't put her in a situation after Charlotte where she's against someone who you're trying to push as a baby face. And now Sasha doing the exact same thing is now framed as you should really want to see her get beat up because she's so arrogant.

48:41 And then she doesn't change. She's authentically still herself and confident, but now she's against a heel, and you're supposed to cheer for her. All you're catering to then are people who just are devoted to Sasha no matter what. And those people are loud on social media, and they're passionate, and they are important. But there's a lot of people who tune in because they want you to have a wrestler who, when you watch in January and April and July and September and December... You have a consistent feel about why you should be rooting for them or rooting against them. And part of that isn't just how they act.

49:16 It's how the announcers talk about them. It's how they're booked to win matches. Do you win by cheating? Do you win by being nasty or unreasonably and over-the-top arrogant? Well, if you're facing a baby face, that's Sasha's tendency. If she's facing a heel, she tends to just be brash and cheer for me because I'm unapologetically good. And it's the inconsistency of what she's surrounded with and How her opponents are talked about by the announcers that I think feels herky-jerky. And I think that's a product of having two women's divisions split in half that isn't very deep.

49:52 And so they just mix the same people against each other all the time. And they're just like, and I also think it dates back to Jerry Lawler stuff. You know, the attitude that Jerry Lawler leaked onto the air that the men in WWE who run it have, which is, oh, women hate each other. So we're just going to put women in it. It's been reported, you know, we'll just put the women out there. We'll let them be themselves.

50:10 And they'll just argue because that's what women do. And the guys will love it. And the women will relate. And I think the women deserve to have the storyline nuance that men get, which is there's a constitution that guides their actions. And Bianca Belair said it, you know, when she was cutting a promo last week about Charlotte.

50:26 And it's like, you know, you win, but you don't win with honor. You don't win in a way that anyone could be proud of. You don't win. You don't win in a way where you should sleep all at night thinking you're the best. you call yourself the best, but you don't really earn titles. You cheat to possess titles.

50:40 And those are two different things. Bianca's saying things where, whether it's, it's a, it's a eight year old and 18 year old or a 38 year old, there should be nodding along and going, yeah, that's, those are values that I appreciate. I want her to be badass and kick ass and, and confident and, and all in colorful, but I want her to stand for something that I can be proud of. And Sasha just going, I'm just going to be me. It just sounds like the me generation.

51:04 It's just sounds like self-centered. It's all about how many followers you have, how much money you make, how many titles you have, how, how much bling you have. It's just like stand for something better than that. And, and then present her consistently in a way where I want to cheer her, boo her. And they just aren't doing that with her. And again, I think it's because it's a shallow roster and they just mix and match the same five, six women.

51:28 Hey, everyone.

51:29 Longtime PWTorch columnist Sean Radican here to let you know I've revamped and renewed the Radican Worldwide Podcast for 2026. a weekly VIP exclusive. Every week, I break down four or five of the biggest trending topics in pro wrestling. I also present my analysis, providing insight that helps you understand the story better or see it another way than maybe is the controversial take out there. Then I bring on a special guest for the second half of the podcast.

51:56 Sometimes it's a wrestler or someone else who works in the business. Other times it's a guest analyst who brings their specialized point of view on a particular key topic in the news. Recent guests have included Bronson Reed from WWE and PCO. One of my areas of specialty is the Japan wrestling scene, so I often cover a big topic from Japan with PW Torch's own Alan Farrell, Kelly Wells, and Chris Lansdell. I don't just cover the news. I don't just riff on the news or give a standard hot take. I'll bring my decades of studying this industry and talking one-on-one with dozens of wrestling promoters to each week's show so you understand not just what's happening, but the context of why. Get ahead of the news. Get

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52:48 Mike Myers, any thought on that?

52:50 Yeah, I think if we can all agree that Charlotte is easily the biggest heel, then I would wish for the company to frame Sasha as a straight up baby face and get away from that idea of cheer me or boo me, whatever, I'm going to be me. There's way more money in being closer to universal one way or the other, not just throwing up your hands and say, cheer me or boo me, I don't care. The whole time I've been on the post shows, I've always thought Sasha was weird. She comes off as weird. A lot of the time it's been between like bad and it wasn't as bad as last week.

53:37 And, but during WrestleMania time was cringy. I mean, like the Sasha fans were like, what are you guys talking about? She's still sexy and I love her.

53:43 Okay, great.

53:44 But if you don't find her sexy and lover and you step back and look at her performance, she was in lava land. It was, it was like cringy. I mean, like I didn't know what to make of her performances. She's in a much better place now. And I look forward to her, showing her talent and not being in whatever planet she was living on earlier this year on air.

54:03 And Mike mentioned her being on different talk shows and being more natural. And the biggest thing we ever talk about is when they're not scripted and when she doesn't have to enunciate things a certain way or, God forbid, insert forced cackling. You know what I mean? Get the hell away from all of that. And if arrogance is a part of her, her actual character, that that's fine because she is one of the best wrestlers I've ever seen.

54:41 So me too. Use the arrogance. You can do that in a baby face way. I hope they find a way to do it because, um, it hasn't all totally clicked for me yet. It always does in the ring, but I'd love to see it all really come together, especially against somebody like Charlotte, who is just, yeah. You want to see her get her ass kicked.

55:06 Jersey Mike. I know you've got thoughts on this.

55:08 Yeah.

55:09 I mean, I think Charlotte, she's such a good heel and everything. I definitely in a feud with Sasha, I definitely think, she's going to get booed in this feud a lot. And I think she's going to get a lot of heat on her even more, and she'll do some drastic heelish things to Sasha and say mean things and all kinds of stuff to Sasha. And the fans will definitely get behind Sasha even more. But Sasha always gets cheered, no matter what. When she faced Becky this past match that they had, That mania when she faced Belair, she got tons of cheers. So they're going to cheer her against Charlotte, you know, especially because Charlotte is such a really good, you know, especially since Charlotte is such

55:56 a really, really good heel.

55:59 And they've gotten rid of the ambiguity with Charlotte, and it's made her better. You know, it's made her a more marketable character because she's not, you know, just Charlotte. She's just Charlotte. You can cheer her, boo her, she's just Charlotte. That's hashtag no money. I mean, or limited money.

56:15 I mean, like, then you're just, it's just the fans of Charlotte who are going to just watch her. But you're not getting strong emotions if you're muddying it up by going, well, you can love her or not love her. Well, give me a reason to do one or the other. Because that's pro wrestling. That's pro sports. You know, how many people watch hockey because they love good passes and they love good goaltending? No, they love hockey because they love a player and they hate a player. They love a city and its fans and they hate a city and its fans, whether you live in it or not.

56:39 That's what gets you really into a game. And just because you have a limited roster doesn't mean you should get sloppy. And Sasha's been booked in a sloppy, circumstantial way. So was Charlotte for a long time. And they've got to make sure Becky doesn't end up in that zone. And Belair has gone from, I don't know if it's going to work, to, oh, yeah, she's found the right zone to be in. She's in the right lane. And that's a shining example, I think, right now. It hasn't been like eight straight weeks of consistent, but six out of the last eight, I think she's been spot on.

57:07 Yeah, I was going to say, wait, she did do the laugh. on the bump, by the way, even though she like was given like a natural interview, she did do the laugh. So I don't know. Maybe she made it up. I don't know if it was Vince, but maybe she did make it up.

57:20 I don't know.

57:20 Jersey, Mike, if I had a friend who laughed like that, I'd pull them aside and then have a talk. She'd be like, we need, we need to have a talk. Um, that's not something you should be doing. And I would break that habit. So, um, I know, I don't know any inside information on, on how it originated, but I, someone should have a talk with her.

57:37 Okay.

57:39 I wish Stone Cold would ask her sometime because she would be honest. They're good friends. She would be honest with him on the podcast.

57:47 Yeah. Yeah.

57:49 I am curious if she just does it naturally or then support her to do it.

57:55 Yeah.

57:56 Either way.

57:57 If that's natural, then I don't think she's of this earth.

58:00 Yeah, exactly. I mean, I don't want to pick on her, but it does seem like a new thing in the last year. And it felt like it was, It felt very put on and manufactured. We can try to dig up what the origin of that is. I'll ask around.

58:21 Yeah, ask around.

58:22 Definitely get back to me on that. I don't want to pick on her either. I'm like Kyle in Baltimore. Sasha, she's actually my favorite star in WWE.

58:35 Yeah.

58:36 I'll honestly say that I'm not afraid to admit that.

58:38 Yeah.

58:38 You know, my favorite star in WWE is, is a female Sasha. Like who is more charismatic in the company.

58:45 Than her, her outfit tonight, by the way, I don't, I don't talk a lot about ring gear. There's, you know, I think probably half the people are more into it than I am. And half are a lot less into it than I am. It's not like, you know, some people really focus on that. But I notice it when it's really good. Like, I think the young box went from, you know, coming across to a non, you know, being the elite viewer, PWG fanatic, They came across a sort of like, you know, low rent cult act who do a bunch of spots that Jim Ross, you know, grumbles about on commentary. They went from that to like this just top level main event act when Nick came out of whatever funk he was in for, you know, most of the year. and then up their ring gear. You know,

59:32 I mean, it was just like crazy. Suddenly they just put time and money into it. Sasha's outfit tonight was like really jumped off the screen. Mike Myers, I don't know how into ring gear and outfits you are, but I thought, you know, the women in general would put more work into it. I think more into their ring gear in the last few months than I remember prior.

59:53 And Charlotte really stood out, which you went away from just kind of the robe thing. And Sasha brought it tonight. Mike Myers, how about you?

1:00:00 Yeah, they have top-notch people. I mean, I don't know who it is. If it's the wrestlers maybe have their own source for that sort of thing, or if WWE has.

1:00:12 Something to provide. I actually did ask about that. They have someone in-house who they can go to and often do go to. And, God, did... there's a certain budget for it, but there's sometimes you, you just sort of go, you know, under the table to get something extra, um, done. And so, yeah, it just kind of depends on your, your star level and, you know, top, top tier wrestlers get a little more priority of getting hurt, you know, getting the tension of, uh, uh, the, the design people, but there's someone on board and you just sit down and you can be creative with them and come up with designs and they'll make it happen.

1:00:46 That that's awesome. Um, it, it does stand out. Um, the WWE is so good at certain things and the, the ring where I guess the women stand out to be more, I guess maybe that's just the natural order of things. I don't know. But yeah, Sasha has been.

1:01:08 Based on how my sister shows up at events and how I show up at events. It's my natural order of things.

1:01:13 Yeah.

1:01:14 I'm like, yeah, I joked with her. I'm like, I got, I said, I roll out of bed and five minutes later, I'm ready to get in the car to go to a wedding. And, and she like had a, like a three day plan and appointments. And I just was giving her a hard time about that.

1:01:26 Sure.

1:01:27 Exactly. And, but it's a big payoff in the showbiz industry on WWE. Yeah. Like I said, absolutely dazzling Charlotte and Sasha come to mind. And you, you mentioned the young bucks and my partner, Samantha laughs out loud. Every time I show her a, a, like a, current young buck segment based on whatever they're wearing and however they're walking to the ring. And so, um, all that, all that adds up and yeah, WWE is top notch at that.

1:02:00 It's like their, their video production is second to none. And I would say the same with their costume design.

1:02:06 Yeah.

1:02:08 All right. Jersey, Mike, anything else you want to wrap up with? I don't want to leave others on hold too long here.

1:02:15 Um, Yeah, just real quick, Matt Morgan was saying in today's wrestling, the women stand out more. Just like their hair color, the green hair, the blue hair. They just have more charisma and character in today's wrestling compared to a lot of the guys that are just plain. I mean, AJ Styles is a great wrestler, but is there character there? Like, not really, right? It's just that he's an amazing wrestler.

1:02:47 Yeah.

1:02:48 Right.

1:02:50 And that's, you know, that was the point he was making that, you know, the women just stand out in today's wrestling more. Yeah.

1:02:57 Yeah.

1:02:57 No, I think there's something, I think there's something to it. And I think part of it is that to a degree, um, there was a time and it was just wear something skimpy and have long blonde hair and, and, and, you know, wear certain your makeup a certain way and have a certain, certain, uh, body measurements. And, I think it's gone more into, you know, rock star showbiz, you know, Instagram outfit type, you know, look at this.

1:03:23 I don't know.

1:03:23 So I just, I think they've become more artists and less just, you know, trying to find a G, you know, PG rated way to explain what they're marketing now versus then. And I think now they're marketing being, being rock stars and glamorous. And back then it was something else.

1:03:43 Yep, I can agree to that. I guess we'll wrap it up there, and I'll let you get to other calls.

1:03:47 Thanks, Mike.

1:03:48 Thanks for taking my call.

1:03:48 Absolutely, absolutely.

1:03:50 Good talk.

1:03:51 Thanks, Mike. Yeah, good call. Our number, 347-215-8558. If you're joining us midstream, I'm Wade Keller, joined by Mike Myers from PWTorch.com. We are talking SmackDown. I'll be talking Dynamite tomorrow night after Dynamite, so tune in then if you can. Did you know that you can enjoy commercial-free versions of all of your favorite Wade Keller podcasts and PWTorch daily casts on Spotify? Just go to patreon.com, search PWTorch, and subscribe to a VIP membership tier. You get a seven-day free trial, by the way, to kick the tires a bit and see if you like the service. And then sync it with Spotify, and you can listen to commercial-free versions of our free shows, like the Wade Keller post shows,

1:04:34 the Wade Keller podcast flagship, our flashbacks, and also the PWTorch daily cast lineup. Again, all commercial-free, a nice streamlined listening experience. But with third-tier membership, you can also unlock all the VIP podcasts, including Everything with Rich and Wade, The Fix with Todd Martin that I host with Todd every week, the Wade Keller News Bulletin's post-pay-per-view roundtables, and an array of other VIP-exclusive podcasts with different hosts and different themes. Check out the lineup. Go to Patreon and search PWTorch and subscribe and sync it up with Spotify or stay within the Patreon ecosystem. Either way works, go to Patreon and start your seven-day free trial. Okay, Mike mentioned Kyle from Baltimore. I believe we have Kyle ready

1:05:24 to go here. So we will flow into getting Kyle's take on things. Kyle, you've been, I bet, itching to join this conversation. So we'll go to you. your thoughts on SmackDown tonight and perhaps what we've been talking about. Oh, I have to push a button. I got to do my job. I just find myself $ 10. All right, go ahead.

1:05:44 Go ahead, Kyle.

1:05:48 Yeah.

1:05:48 So before I get to Sasha, let's talk about the whole title routine, stuff like that, before I get to all that. So with Becky and Charlotte, I kind of, I know people don't like the fact that this happened, but they had no choice. They, It was WWE who drafted Becky to Raw and Charlotte just mad down it.

1:06:09 So that made sense. And then with the fact, too, that Sasha also brought up... I mean, Becky brought up Survivor. She said she'll see one of you as Survivor Series.

1:06:18 I was like, one of you?

1:06:19 So Sasha's going to face Becky for the... I mean, Sasha's going to face Charlotte for the championship at some point because she said one of them. So that was something I picked up on.

1:06:28 And....

1:06:31 Yeah, so there was that. That was that thing.

1:06:33 But the whole thing with Sasha herself being, at this point, I guess I just don't care at this point because it's like it's, it is what it is. I heard, you know, I hear her from interviews and does she sound different on interviews than on TV?

1:06:47 Sure, she does.

1:06:49 But I heard in an interview saying that, a recent interview saying that she changed and she said, how did I change? What, how, what did I change? I can say, I can think I'm the best. And I thought, so that's what she said in a recent interview.

1:07:02 I heard, heard it from.

1:07:02 So at this point, I'm just like, I don't know.

1:07:05 Well, that's Kyle. That's why I say, Kyle, that's why I say it's what they surround her with that. I'm mostly talking about is how do they frame her attitude? Because if Michael Cole goes or Pat McAfee goes, she needs to get over herself. Look at her. She just thinks she's the God's gift to wrestling fans. McAfee can say that about her and she's being consistent and, Or she can come out and be consistent, do the exact same thing. And Pat McAfee can say, man, is she confident in herself. Look at her. She is glamorous. She is talented. And she knows it. And there's so many wrestlers on this roster who want what she has. And they're going to resort to any means to try to take away what she has earned and what the fans

1:07:39 respect about her. She can do the exact same thing one week and the exact same thing the next week. And the commentary can frame it completely differently. And that's what I'm getting at is they got to decide how they're going to talk about her. how they're going to frame who she is authentically and consistently, if that's her case.

1:07:55 And then they need to put her against opponents where she can be consistent in how we feel about who's coming after her and for what reason. And are they trying to take something away from her fairly or unfairly? And I just don't think that, and granted, you know, she was supposed to be at SummerSlam. She wasn't. And it's just been a weird stretch for her. You know, during uncertain times, her career has taken an uncertain path.

1:08:18 And so, you know, again, it's sort of like post-draft. Just let's get settled in, decide what she's going to be. And then I don't want them talking about her if she acts the same way in January in a completely different way, because by then they're trying to get Xia, or let's see, they're trying to get Shotzi over as a lovable baby face. And now Sasha's mean, you know, like, so Sasha is talking about herself, but it's not just about her. It's about how she's, how she's framed and talked about. I know wrestlers over the years who any show they were on, they listened back and they were like, They would critique after the fact what the announcer said about them. And they would go to Vince and go,

1:08:52 you know, you can't say that about this or that. That's not what I'm going for. You know, and it's not just about your outfit, how you carry yourself and how you wrestle and how you talk. It's it's being on the same page with the bookers and the announcers and how they frame who you are. That's like more than half the game in terms of how fans are looking at you.

1:09:12 And I can't imagine how frustrating that must be. If you're anything but like The Rock or Stone Cold Steve Austin, if you're at all divisive with the fans, if the company isn't getting behind you in a single direction, that would be frustrating to no end. And it takes the work of the whole village for somebody like Sasha, whose promos aren't so one-sidedly beloved. that she, she needs that extra help.

1:09:53 Yeah.

1:09:53 And if they're not consistent with it, then it's not going to work right. And there's money left on the table.

1:09:59 That's right.

1:09:59 No matter how good she is in the ring.

1:10:01 Yeah.

1:10:03 Yep. Nope.

1:10:03 Well put. Kyle, back to you. I jumped in. Yeah.

1:10:07 Yeah.

1:10:07 I just think all this is so confusing at this point. I'm just, my head is spinning about it now. It's like, it's like, I don't know. I just, I'm just, I don't, I don't know. I think, I think, too, I can also compare Sasha and B-Fab as well. I'm glad they're the same brand, too, because I'm thinking to myself, too, you have the B-Fab there, and, like, no, I like Hit Row. Hit Row is freaking awesome.

1:10:31 All of them are great.

1:10:32 When they came out tonight, they were nearly star, like.

1:10:35 Place where.

1:10:37 all of them are great. But when I look at B-Fab and Sasha, it would be very interesting to how they're going to... And B-Fab wants to wrestle, and that's clearly what they're planning on doing, because I remember her last match on NXT wasn't all that great. I was like, well, when she comes to the main roster, there's Sasha, there's Charlotte, so if she wants to be a wrestler, that's fine, and her being in the ring with those two would be awesome, if that's the case. But I do see B-Fab and Sasha in the same frame somewhat. So I guess what's... Um, so there's that, but then the way you think it's from that be the interesting, I'm done being kind of similar to of double a B because it's beef. It's just, it's, I guess it's difficult. Sasha's

1:11:21 doing one whole thing, go to the extreme. And it feels like that BFM and Bianca are doing it somewhat, uh, more confident and more, they feel comfortable doing it, I guess.

1:11:34 I don't know.

1:11:35 I guess that's what's different.

1:11:37 Yeah, Mike, what do you think of Hit Row and their presentation tonight? Polished or too rehearsed? Or both polished and rehearsed, but in a good way? And, you know, yeah, BFAB's got a ways to go in the ring. But, you know, there's some potential, obviously, personality-wise. They got called up quickly because they carry themselves in a way that feels authentic and natural, even if, their routine can feel rehearsed and orchestrated. And it's an interesting combination. But in my opinion, I don't think rehearsed and orchestrated is bad if it comes across like you put a lot of work into it because you care about how you come across publicly and you sort of have a distinct personality and vibe you're trying to give across as your brand. So, yeah,

1:12:27 your thoughts on that.

1:12:29 They made their ring entrance tonight doing a routine that– I would think had to have taken hours to nail down.

1:12:38 Yeah.

1:12:38 And then they did it in front of an arena. I almost said full of people, but I'll say an arena with a lot of people in it and they nailed it. If they screwed something up, I missed it and they covered it up. That's, that's amazing. They, they were not in Saudi Arabia, so they weren't subject to that.

1:12:58 Like what would have been a horrific turnaround and all that, but whatever they did, it worked. I was thinking it's definitely not. This is the opposite of off the cuff. We're talking about Matt McAfee earlier. But I can't help but admire the performance. And they crushed it. You know how much easier it would have been to have put that together through multiple takes in a backstage segment?

1:13:30 No.

1:13:31 They did it while entering the ring. all before a job or squash match, which is always going to be extra points in, uh, by my score.

1:13:41 Yeah.

1:13:42 Um, so that's, yeah, I'm, I'm kind of torn on how, how much it was pre-scripted, but again, the execution was amazing. Um, As for B-Fab, I honestly don't know. I need to wait and see what happens with B-Fab on SmackDown. And if it eventually leads to her tangling with Banks, that'd be cool. They need more people to tangle with Banks other than Charlotte. So yeah, let's go for it.

1:14:20 The idea that the women are bringing more color and more you know, more effort and, and, uh, just energy and, and richness to their presentation, their hair and their outfits. It's like, just, you know, they're not, everybody needs to do that. I mean, you know, Drew McInerney has got the five foot sword and, and the music and some people can just come out in black boots and sometimes less is more as Xavier, Xavier as carrying cross, um, Xavier too, but that's a whole other topic. We'll get to that. Um, Karen cross, you know, sometimes less is more the black boots, uh, it works better than a silly hood. So not all extra gear is better, but they just hit row. Just feels like this is the life they live. And, you know, they planted the seeds

1:15:06 was with a sort of Scott for a long time, you know, with him in the, in the, you know, post-production room at the, at the soundboard doing his thing. And even before hit row, that was sort of a thing that felt like that. That's just who he is. And they're trying to figure out how to get that on the air and, and convey that. And it, you know, they came together as hit row. And so I think you, if you're watching SmackDown and you see that, you think this is cool. You know, I hope they can wrestle, but I'm curious to see who these people are and how far they can go. And I just enjoy seeing their, their presentation because they put, as you said, Mike, without a net, a ton of work into it and pulled

1:15:45 it off. All right, cool. Kyle, do you have any closing words for us?

1:15:51 Yes.

1:15:51 Yeah.

1:15:52 It's just, um, Yeah, that entire thing was interesting. Then with, again, with the whole belt swap thing, I know people don't like that, but I mean, one of the choices they had from that was whatever. Lastly, I'll talk about with Roman Reigns is that I find it very fascinating that Roman Reigns doesn't have any credible baby faces to face.

1:16:18 There's no, like, it's like, I'm just, I feel like everybody that is credible enough who seems like it's credible is over on Monday Night Raw. Besides Roman Reigns, Sasha Bakes, and Charlotte Flair, the top three I can think of, I guess Drew McIntyre, who else is credible enough to go after the championships, I wonder? But I'll leave you to that, and that's it. Thanks for my call.

1:16:41 Great.

1:16:41 Thanks, Kyle.

1:16:42 Yeah. Shinsuke Nakamura, Drew McIntyre. If you look at the tag team division, it's not particularly rich. But if Xavier is going to be a king, I don't think that's a gimmick where you can go and take on Roman. Maybe they can get a month out of Kofi, you know, kind of a Cesaro level, you know, type of moving to the top for a month type thing. But it's not a particularly deep tag team division either. If you take a heel and turn a baby face, that's where Sheamus comes in. And Sheamus is sort of like, you know, the guy who's going to, he's just going to be who he is. And again, a lot of it is how you frame him or who he decides to step up into the face of. But I think people would cheer Seamus with the year he's had if he stepped

1:17:28 up to Roman. And, you know, so, I mean, it's not high end obvious, but, you know, where it just, it writes itself and it's just money, but I think you can make it work. And then, you know, you got to hope for a Ridge Holland, I guess, to catch on. You know, Happy Corbin feels marginalized to a mid-card comedy act. Xavier Woods is a mid-card comedy act with a whole king shtick. So it's not, it is not deep. And one of my real curiosities for the next year is what they do on SmackDown to keep Roman interesting because he needs credible opponents to remain interesting. Otherwise, you know, I mean, he's, I'll watch him if he has no credible opponents. But, you know, ideally you want to have people who seem like a threat get under

1:18:13 his skin. and you think can be a credible threat to him. And that is a very short list that they have to work with over the next 12 months. And there's no real obvious call-ups either to fortify that over the next 12 months either.

1:18:24 Mike.

1:18:26 Yeah.

1:18:26 I mean, McIntyre, the obvious choice in the immediate future. You mentioned Nakamura. I think, I feel like they'd have to distance Nakamura from Boogs and that whole, the tar gimmick for that to be anything even close to be Yeah. Like being able to take that seriously. Yeah. If they're willing to do that. And I don't believe that. they are, I would like to see it. Even if you need to move the Intercontinental belt off of Nakamura, I would love to see him in a serious, even if it's a one pay-per-view deal, a feud with Roman Reigns, uh, I wouldn't even mind if they go back to Cesaro, um, to do something with Reigns again, even if it's just to, to tread water, because I, I think it would, if they do it right, it could be a quality way

1:19:15 to bide time, you know? Um, but yeah, apart from that and the few things you mentioned, it's, it's kind of slim pickings, but, uh, They can figure something out if they execute everything correctly. That's the trick.

1:19:34 I'm Chris Maitland.

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1:20:16 All right.

1:20:17 We'll move on here to Nick in Brattleboro. You are up next. Thanks for holding. What stood out on SmackDown tonight for you, Nick?

1:20:26 Oh, good evening. A couple of costumes. Just Sasha's costumes are made by her hubby. Sanchon Tan, Sarath Tan, he used to be a wrestler, and he's now her husband and makes all her costumes. He's a designer.

1:20:48 Well, I said some people freelance. There you go. She's caught it in. Yeah.

1:20:53 This is on Fightful. They said he was a wrestler with WWE from 2002 to 2015. And then they got married in 2016. And he's a designer known as Mikaze. So, anyway. One of the things I wanted to talk about is our friend McAfee. When he first started out, I didn't like him. And then he kind of went into a zone where he had that common man feel, and he was doing, I thought, really well, and I was really enjoying his stuff. And then over the last three or four weeks, he seems to have stuck his finger in a light socket or something. And taken his energy so far up and moved so much more into overselling certain WWE things that I started to dislike him again and tonight I really saw it tonight I mean it was

1:22:10 just like dance on the table for Rick Booth that's fun and that's you know dance on Michael Cole's head and that's all fun and exciting but Getting this over. The last three or four weeks has been bad.

1:22:29 Yeah, I think he's changed. I don't think it was like this binary thing where he was perfect and now he's awful, but it shifted to a territory that makes me think him not being in that territory was more of an accident than a plan, and we might be seeing the real guy who... But maybe it is just a... He's been around the system long enough. He's starting to just kind of know what's expected of him and how you blend in. And maybe it is sort of an intentional augmentation of his initial approach. I don't have a sense for how conscious he was of how different he was and how refreshing he was by seeming like somebody who loved the product but wasn't just a robot-programmed shill saying exactly what Vince wanted. So I don't know if

1:23:20 he then understands how disappointing it is that now he's coming across as an over-the-top shill in more ways by far than he was before. Have you noticed that? I know you don't listen to the commentary all the time, Mike, but from the times that you have paid attention to McAfee, does it seem like it's been a switch?

1:23:42 Yeah, not a hard switch. I know what Nick is saying, I think, and there's... been a more shill like behavior, but you can never completely get away from it. Still the delivery method being Pat McAfee, I think. So even if you can, yeah, like you, you can't stop them. You can only hope to contain him. You know what I mean? That's kind of what I imagine. It's like having Pat McAfee as a lead commentator or the, the color commentator. And, um, I don't know. I still prefer him to the average, uh, any commentator they have on WWE. Uh, I recognize and appreciate the importance to a rocks, a rock steady guy like Michael Cole. You know what I mean? But, uh, um, McAfee continues to be compared to, you know, the status

1:24:38 quo on any WWE programming, some, uh, something a little different. So, yeah.

1:24:45 And the idea that he loves the product and isn't just a drone playing a character.

1:24:51 Helps.

1:24:51 You know, when Corey Graves, I thought, had that, it got beaten out of him. I think Wade Barrett, you know, I complimented him in my VIP NXT report this past week because, you know, Wade Barrett comes across as somebody who defends the heels, but he's open to discussion and another point of view. And Vic Joseph knows the product and is smart and will push back. And we'll do so, you know, he'll pick his spots, but he'll go, come on, Wade, you can't say that when you think about, what about this?

1:25:19 And Barrett will be like, well, then I guess on this one, I have a double standard. Like, you know, he gets held accountable and he'll just acknowledge it. And it feels like two real people talking with two different worldviews. And that's what I want. Not, you know, you just have your prescribed point of view. And, you know, Corey Graves, it's been up and down. I'm not even sure how I would describe him, but sometimes he just seems kind of, you know, just nasty to his color commentator. Oftentimes it's deserved, but sometimes it's a little heavy handed. Other times he's kind of defensive and corporate and other times that he feels a little more real and you feel like you're getting to hear from who he really is. But, um,

1:25:55 and he's had, you know, carry a lot of the water lately on that show and play different roles. So I don't know.

1:26:00 Yeah.

1:26:00 Just when you look at kind of the main color commentators, McAfee just comes across as a guy who's just super happy to be at work and loves WWE. And he can't believe he gets a front row seat and that's relatable. And I think people who watch WWE want that, want that feeling from their announcers that they consider it a dream job. You know, I'm, I don't sit here on these shows and go, Oh God, I'd rather be anywhere, but doing a post show after SmackDown. I don't go, you know, I don't do a raw post show and say, I can't believe anyone sits through the show. It's awful.

1:26:25 Like that's not my job to lament the job I have. It's to take a three hour show that was watched by, you know, one or 2 million people and analyze it and critique it. And, you know, say here's from watching wrestling for 30 some years, what I think they do well and what they, what I think they aren't doing well.

1:26:43 And nobody wants to hear you seem like you're miserable doing a job that to them would be a dream job. And I think color commentators and announcers sometimes have to force not giving that vibe. And McAfee's a guy who just so far has felt like he shows up early and is just counting down the minutes until the show starts so he can watch wrestling. And if he mixes that, if he just subtracts the shill part, I think it's going to stay a refreshing part of what he does.

1:27:06 He'll be a refreshing person in that chair. But if he gets into the zone of, nobody can do it like WWE, no other league, it's going to start to take away something that made him special and stand out.

1:27:18 And since we're really drilling deep into Pat McAfee, I'd like to add one more detail that he does consistently that I can't think of anyone else really doing in pro wrestling. And I don't know if there's a term for this, but he. Through his commentary puts words in the wrestlers mouths while things are going on in front of him. And I think my favorite example of that is it was a Kevin Owens, like no holds barred match or something. And he was stacking tables up outside of the ring and McAfee shouted, stack those some bitches up says Kevin Owens.

1:27:58 You know, yeah. Almost every week he'll do something like that. And I love that. Um, It's so unique that it can't possibly be scripted because no one else does that in WWE that I've noticed.

1:28:11 Yes.

1:28:12 And it reminds me of there's a car racing game that I've played online for quite a while with a couple of buddies. And if one... It's one of my two friends in particular who, if they notice me nudge a player off the track or something, he'll shout, Mike says, out of my way, give him the chrome horn.

1:28:34 Totally, yeah.

1:28:35 My other buddy says, did you say that, Mike? I'll say, yeah, you heard the question. but uh it's great it's it's a really good trait and it's it's this fun energy that he injects that that's got to be pure mcafee so yes i don't know that's another detail i really.

1:28:52 Like about him mike what stood out of what you just said is my two friends i just i just like that you're like yeah i got two.

1:28:57 Friends Wade, that's my online PS5 friend. I've got other friends outside of that little group. Wade, all you.

1:29:10 Have is your dog and Vector, so don't dump on Mike here.

1:29:16 Oh, that was funny. All right, go ahead, Nick.

1:29:21 Just not to psychoanalyze McAfee too much, but I think some of it, at least what brings me into him when he's doing well, is as much as Vince searches for these people who have sports credibility and stuff like that, McAfee knows sports. He knows what it means to be an athlete. And I think that informs some of his exuberance about sports. these guys and girls and these guys and gals performing in front of him that a lot of the other announcers.

1:30:07 And he's self-deprecating in key spots, too. He's like, well, I was just a kicker. I wasn't an athlete. Like, he'll joke, you know, like, you know, I didn't have it tough like other people do, but he was around it. And he will obviously are a professional athlete if you're kicking, but he'll... I've heard him, you know, not try to overstate...

1:30:25 you know, that he was Tom Brady or, you know, you know, whatever. So, um, yeah, it, it, there's, there's a, a, uh, bombastic-ness to his celebrity that he tempers, I think, naturally slash strategically, um, with some self-deprecation and humility that makes him more tolerable, to be honest, with the type of energy that he brings.

1:30:50 Yeah.

1:30:52 I'm sure on some punt return, he had to take a shot from a middle linebacker who was going 50 miles an hour.

1:30:59 Yeah, absolutely.

1:31:00 And he was, what, would you classify him as probably one of the top ten punters ever?

1:31:08 Yeah, I don't know enough about punters, but I know he was considered really good. I'm not sure I can make a top ten list of all time. I did ride in an elevator once with Greg Coleman, who was a great Vikings punter. You just happen to be on.

1:31:22 An elevator with him. Oh, I remember him.

1:31:24 Yeah.

1:31:27 If you're listening to us on the Apple Podcast app, on Spotify, or any other app that allows you to rate our podcast, please take a moment to give us a five-star rating. It really helps us in the algorithm and helps them know that you recommend us to others. Just look for a place to rate the show on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to our shows, and please click that five-star rating. And of course, thank you so much for listening.

1:31:53 A little fantasy booking, if you will, on opponents for Roman is, and I don't know how they time it out so that the baby-faced heel switch isn't really weird, but you've got, Sheamus has never had the Intercontinental title. So he's got to take that from Nakamura at some point. And then that trees Nakamura up. And so maybe you do Sheamus before that, and then he gets the Intercontinental title, and then Nakamura can go after Reigns. And, you know, I don't know. I mean, it's possible that you can turn Sheamus by hooking him up with Cesaro, who he used to be in the bar with when they were both heels. Maybe Cesaro can... you know, rub him off a little baby face. Um, but I think, I think Seamus and Reigns would just have just, if, if, if

1:33:04 Seamus doesn't kill Reigns in the process, but I mean, I think they could have some great matches.

1:33:09 Yeah.

1:33:10 No, it'd be brave of Vince to put, to put Seamus in there. And if, you know, Roman has Hollywood aspirations, he probably doesn't want, you know, too many scars and broken noses. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

1:33:21 Yup.

1:33:22 I mean, Seamus walking around with his deviated septum and broken nose and shattered whatever from Umberto, of all people. He's going to take it out on Roman. I don't think Roman wants that. But Roman's a tough guy, obviously. Certainly fancies himself as tough based on how he demeaned and immoralized poor CM Punk, that skinny 40-something who doesn't have the spring at his step anymore. Yeah, that was something else.

1:33:53 So I thought– I don't know how they're– what they're going to do with Roman and Paul. It just– it seemed– and you and Todd talked about this. I didn't watch– I didn't see Crown Jewel, but I listened to you and Todd, and I listened to your recap on the VIP side of things. Go VIP. The– And it struck me very much in the replay I saw and stuff that, yeah, there's this huge hole. I expected Reyes to haul off his slug, you know, and slug pull.

1:34:37 It just didn't seem to make sense. Roman's way too smart in character to be taken in by this unless there's some... he's working some real metaphysical stuff with his cousins that they're going to get Paul in the end. Or Paul is really with him, and then the whole thing looks really strange anyway.

1:35:09 I didn't know what they were going to do at Crown Jewel, but I was looking forward to what they were going to do. I'm pre-calling this callback. They punted. You know, they punted on it. They didn't decisively declare that Paul was with Roman. And that was the move to make. The idea that they can get more out of it next time they cross paths, oh, is Paul really with Lesnar or is he really with Roman? Paul can be with Roman now and he can be with Lesnar later because he gets sick of Roman treating him like crap. You know, you can tell that story while also giving us a conclusion yesterday. And they didn't. But they also... did because, I mean, you almost need a flow chart to kind of keep track of the different

1:35:56 options here. But as Todd Martin pointed out on the flagship in the fix yesterday, if Paul was with Roman, the stakes were too high with the universal title on the line late in the match for him to give, to put the belt within reach of Lesnar. Because Lesnar could have, with a ref down, knocked out Roman Reigns and Lesnar would have won. And I'm trying to get into the head of Paul Heyman because I'm sure Paul in real life has thought about how's this.

1:36:21 Going to work.

1:36:22 And either he thinks it was really dumb what he has to do or in his mind it makes sense. And so I'm trying to get in his head and say, let's say it makes sense. Why would Paul go 50-50? How does he think hedging works? You know, in an earthquake, you don't put one foot on each side of the road that's cracking in half. You've got to choose a side quickly or you drop down the middle. And I felt like what he did was voluntarily dropping down the middle where neither guy's going to trust you. Because if Heyman was with Lesnar and their game was, let's admit it and we'll laugh in Roman's face afterwards, Lesnar would have wanted Heyman to give him the damn belt. If Lesnar was mind-effing Roman and Heyman and never expected Heyman

1:37:04 to be on his side and they haven't been talking and there was no covert agreement and Paul wasn't a double agent... then Lesnar would have no expectation that Paul would help him. So if Paul is actually with Lesnar, that was a moment to give Lesnar the belt so he can win the title and he can leave with the Universal Champion. If he was with Roman, then that's a time to show his hand and hand Roman the damn belt. Not put it within reach of both equally.

1:37:28 So Roman can knock out Lesnar and Heyman can laugh and Reigns, and then he confirms what he wants more than anything, it seems, which is, Roman, I'm on your side. I'm with you. I always was. Do you believe me now? And they could have shown up on SmackDown and Reigns could look at Heyman and smile and hug him and say, you're still not family, but I trust you. Like family, almost.

1:37:52 And had that moment. And then they can tell a story where Paul's not trustworthy and Roman trusted him, but Paul shouldn't be trusted or vice versa. Roman's such a dick to him that Paul just starts to go, you know, maybe I... need to rethink my alliance to him. And they could tell that story, but instead they told neither story.

1:38:12 And all we had is Roman as a character compromised tonight by saying, Paul, you know, they acknowledged it at least. Paul, you're not very good at your job. Practice handing me the belt. Practice handing me the mic. See how easy that was? But Roman is way too forgiving tonight. He's like, you're not good at your job. And then they expect us to just move on and be okay with that being, yeah, you know, you weren't on my side. You weren't on Lesnar's side. You're trying to play both sides. I think that's what the psychology we're supposed to think is. Paul is, he was like, may the best man win and I'll choose to side with the winner. Well, who's to say Lesnar would want Paul with him? You know, I don't

1:38:48 think Lesnar, if Paul handed him the belt, Lesnar wouldn't necessarily take it. And if he won with it, he still might give Paul an F5 and walk out of the ring. I'm done with you. So I just don't get the psychology of it. I'm open to hearing an explanation that makes more sense. Mike, what do you think?

1:39:04 Yeah, I was also maybe wrongfully expecting a bigger payoff with the conclusion of Crown Jewel in that main event.

1:39:13 Yeah.

1:39:15 But then I thought, well, maybe they're waiting to do the bigger payoff on Fox.

1:39:20 On SmackDown.

1:39:22 On TV, exactly. They didn't. They addressed it, technically, like you said, Wade. But it was very brief. It was a very brief part of that 35-plus minute opening segment of SmackDown tonight. And I can't prove this, and maybe... Future shows will show otherwise, but I feel like the discussion tonight and on the fix may have gone longer and deeper than any discussion went at WWE, at least in an official sense in the writing room. Maybe not in Roman or Paul Heyman's heads, but I feel like like it was so dismissive tonight that they're just saying the hell with it.

1:40:15 Like, yeah.

1:40:15 Roman saying, um, you're not great at your job to Paul. It's this simple. Here's my hand. Put the title in my hand. See, that's how it should have been done. And boom, dismissed. That was the end of it. And I feel like that will be the end of it.

1:40:32 I just, and it's not, it's not sufficient, right?

1:40:36 It's not. And it's, it could have gone a few different directions that would have made more sense and been more compelling. But I kind of feel like in general, that's the way of WWE, you know, like the, the whole, the running gag of, they'll never remember. Don't worry about that. You know, coming from the very top. But it's a little surprising if Heyman, who has prowess in, telling stories and has had a big hand in Roman's development the last year and a half or whatever, if he's still heavily involved, it's, it's a little surprising that this is what, if this is the culmination, how it's so flat, but maybe, I don't know.

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1:42:26 See you in the Paradise! And if they felt they painted themselves in a corner without a good answer because they wanted to sell the match on the mystery of is Paul really working with Lesnar and Lesnar is just throwing it in the face of Reigns and the payoff is, hey, we told you we're You know, I told you I was going to throw a fastball right down the middle.

1:42:50 You still swung and missed. You know, we told you what we're going to do, and you still couldn't stop it from happening. That's plausible. That matches Lesnar's personality, and Heyman could have this devious laugh and laugh at Roman as he walks out with Lesnar going, we told you, we told you, and you still couldn't do anything about it.

1:43:05 That was plausible enough, and that was a hook. So they wanted that to be a hook. Is that what's going on, or is Lesnar just mind-effing? But all they had to do is have, when the ref was down, And again, there's certainly other ways to do this. But if we stick with kind of the scenario they created, all they had to do was have Paul Heyman get onto the ring apron and look like he's about to throw the belt and slip. His foot falls. He's a klutz.

1:43:32 He's not an athlete. And he slips and he falls right before he's going to reveal who gets the belt. And he slips and falls and he just simply drops the belt right in between them before he has a chance to throw it to one or the other.

1:43:44 So.

1:43:45 You have this ambiguity then. We don't know. And Paul can say, of course I was going to throw it to you, Roman, and I slipped. But then you're thinking, did he? Or was that not an accidental slip? But this was an on purpose, I'm going to put it in between you. And I just can't reconcile, as Todd aptly and artfully explained, I can't reconcile how Roman would still trust Paul after Paul did that and how Paul could expect Roman to trust him. So thumbs down to this chapter. And you're right, Mike, they did not solve it tonight. You know, I expected they would say something and frame it in a way where I'm like, ah, of course, I should have seen that. Or that makes sense.

1:44:27 Or at least Roman kept his credibility, but he didn't. You know, they just, they punted. They want us to forget about it. And Nick, you're right.

1:44:35 Yeah, it almost seems like, and you know, that at some point over the last, month or so, Vince came in and said, no, we're going to do it this way, you'll get a huge pop, and then we'll fix it later. Kind of. Brock's going away for two months, no one will remember what happens when we bring him back for Royal Rumble, and we can redo the whole story again, and get more time.

1:45:03 Out of it. Like how Sasha's booked.

1:45:07 Yeah, yeah.

1:45:09 Um.

1:45:10 Has there ever been an explanation of where she was after WrestleMania and SummerSlam?

1:45:17 No.

1:45:17 Speaking of that?

1:45:18 No.

1:45:18 No one's heard in public about it.

1:45:20 It's not rumor? It's not just rumor?

1:45:26 Isn't what just rumor? The specifics you've heard?

1:45:31 No, I just remember you mentioning at one point that you had heard some rumors but didn't want to talk about them.

1:45:37 Yeah.

1:45:39 Yeah, I wouldn't– I'm not comfortable– Nothing confirmed. Well, yeah, I'm not– it's not confirmed enough for me to even talk cryptically about it. So I'm just– Okay, that's fine. Yeah, I mean, I just– I think whatever– No sweat at all. Yeah, I just– whatever the reasons are, I think people involved can say it or not. But, I mean, it is– you know, it's weird, you know.

1:46:00 Hey, she's got a cute little corgi dog, so I'm happy. Yeah. Last thing, no one's really brought it up yet. I'm still trying to digest how I feel about King Woods and Kofi acting so... I don't know. I'm curious to hear your guys' take on that segment. What I'm hoping for is that this goes to Xavier's head and He becomes so crazed by it that Kofi just has to walk away. And then that also lines him up for a potential match with Roman. And let Xavier go off and just be a complete.

1:46:55 I can't say the word on PG.

1:46:57 When's the last time. When was the last time a wrestler said, we're a PG show? Like, Charlotte said that tonight. And I was like, God, I feel like it's been years. I mean, they smartly moved away from, you know, hanging a lantern on that like it was something to brag about to their audience.

1:47:13 And it was the mildest, you know, bitch thing.

1:47:17 I know, which they say every week.

1:47:18 They've been saying that word for 18 months.

1:47:22 I know.

1:47:23 Well, anyway, yeah, Mike, what did you think of King Xavier and the whole ceremony?

1:47:29 Let me preface this by saying that I understand King of the Ring has a pretty long history with WWE. And that's something. And that I understand that Xavier Woods has had a fascination with becoming King of the Ring for decades. So, good. With that said... To hell with the crown, scepter, cape, throne, F all of that. I can't stand it. I can't stand it so much that I didn't have Nick's patience tonight to wait for Woods to lose his head in the King gimmick. I wanted him to turn on Kofi tonight. and smash kofi with the scepter because that's the only thing that could have made me do a fist pump about this coronation a coronation of newly minted royalty what the hell is this i don't know what it is it whatever it does

1:48:41 not appeal to me in any way it's.

1:48:44 It's delusional and childlike like i have a kingdom and i will rule this way it's like you know your best friend going you know all hail and it's like either xavier news to go like okay i'm not eight like okay i won a tournament i expect something from this tournament it's not to wear a funny cape or what what is it called a that McAfee said it's not a cape.

1:49:07 Well, they said cloak, but I don't know that it's a cloak.

1:49:10 Well, they're saying it's a cloak.

1:49:11 It's a royal robe.

1:49:13 Well, they're saying it's a cloak. Yeah, but they're, they're, they're insisting it's a cloak. So I'm just saying like, so Xavier's using WWE speak. I don't care about this cloak. I don't care about this silly ceremony. I'm not a cartoon character. Yes. I love video games and I love to make kids smile. And I love, but I also love to win titles and I want a legacy I can be proud of. And yeah, Clowning around with a cape or a cloak and a crown on a throne like Corbin did is not what I'm about. And I don't want my fans to think I'm about that. What I want is this win puts me in the record books as a winner of a tournament that blank, blank, blank, blank, and blank won. Pick five good names. Don't include King Mabel.

1:49:53 I know that meant a lot to him when he was nine. But let's get serious. We're grownups. And go, I am young enough. and that I have a lot more I want to accomplish in winning this tournament is, is, you know, like in other words, I'm not going to like cut the exact promo form. It's freaking Xavier. You can talk. He's a grownup, but like the spirit of it is I'm a grownup, not a kid. And I'm a serious person. I'm not King Corbin. So, but instead it's like his dream wasn't to become Stone Cold Steve Austin or AAA. His dream was to become King Corbin with a smile. You know, like it's, it's, it was just silliness. It was nonsense. And, I, and then Xavier's just, you know, acting ridiculous out there with that microphone and

1:50:35 swiveling his hips. And I'm just like, what is going on here? Who do they think their audience is for this? So I'm with you, Mike. And I, but I'm also with Nick. I mean, like this is WWE. They're not going to change overnight how they do things or rethink the things that they do. And I get that. And it would drive me nuts to do a show every week and not be sort of resigned to that or bake that into my analysis, which I do to the chagrin of some people. Um, you know, there there's things they do that have just sort of normalized and you just take at, that's a given and we got to work around it. Um, and so I do it function and, but this is an opportunity for Xavier to eventually get a big head in Kofi to be like, um, Xavier, yes, I,

1:51:17 I thought we're playing along, you know, this is fun. You got a crown. I know you dreamed of this. You were a kid, you're living out a kid fantasy, but you don't really get to tell me to get you stuff. Like you're pushing it. You know, it's like when Charlotte insists, the referee opens the ropes for like Xavier starts asking Kofi open the ropes for me. And, You know, please, you know, sweep out the ring after the non-royal wrestlers. Like, if he just starts taking it too seriously, there's a fun story you can tell. Mike, you will have checked out by then, but maybe we can pull you back in if they tell that. But otherwise, it's like just so ludicrous. It's too ludicrous for words that Xavier expects any person over the age of 11

1:51:52 to take him seriously after this nonsense tonight. Nick, anything else you want to follow up on? And then I want to get to Spencer, who's up next.

1:52:00 Oh, yeah, no, last thing is, according to the New Day, the switching the titles is an in-canon another title thing because they kept saying they're now the 11-time tag team champions. So does this make Charlotte's 13th title? And if so, how soon will she pass her papa? And with that, I will let you guys go.

1:52:25 Thanks, Nick.

1:52:26 I hope her dropping the title and picking it up again counts as a title reign also, because then we can treat the number of title reigns people have as ridiculous and meaningless as it is. If we're going to count trading belts as a separate title reign, which in a way it should, but it's also not at all an accomplishment, nor is being booked to win and then lose and then win and then lose and then win and then lose, and somehow that counts more than just holding a title for a year and a half, as long as CM Punk did.

1:52:54 So.

1:52:57 or as long as Reigns has like Reigns is a better champion because he isn't by now a 13 time champion. So the number of title reigns you have got ruined over the last 25 years as something to be proud of. It always had an asterisk next to it as something to be proud of. Um, cause you have to lose it to win it. The Dudleys bragged about it. And it was like, really, you understand like for as long as you've been around having that many tag team titles means you can't hold onto them very long. And also in, you know, whether it's Canon or not in, in the case in, Whether it's kayfabe or real life, that's not– you've either been booked poorly or you lose a lot.

1:53:31 I mean, it's one or the other. So I hope Charlotte dropping the belt and then picking it up counts as a reign so we can stop talking about title reigns as having any meaning anymore because it doesn't, especially when Triple H was manufacturing title reigns in the booking scheme that was counterproductive to business just to stack up his number because he was a big mark for that. Mike, your thoughts on title reign totals?

1:53:54 I mean, I hardly care. at all yes whatever the so like i i said earlier so long as we know where we are we're back into a routine i care more about that than uh the lineage at this point of a belt that's named after a tv show you know so whatever.

1:54:18 And when you know bishop comes out and says triple h is a champion it's just like i mean that counted as a win as a title win. Like it's just, we're beyond the point where that Matt there, there was not, um, a guardian of the integrity of the lineage present for the last 25 years. There was some semblance of a guardian of the integrity of the lineage before that. And it got thrown out because we need to pop a rating, bro. Um, it got popped out because it's like, we'll do something.

1:54:49 We need something. And it just, it got destroyed. And it means nothing. And now the 24-7 title feels like a parody that's not that far off from what we've seen with others.

1:54:59 So, yeah.

1:55:00 All right. If you joined us in progress here, you can still sneak in a call. 347-215-8558. Push 1 on your keypad after you call if you want to be on the show. That will flag you on the switchboard. iPhone users, if you're listening to us on the native podcast app on your iPhone, You can unlock our commercial-free versions of our free shows by searching PWTorch in Apple Podcasts.

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1:55:43 And after that, you can become a VIP member using your Apple account. It's that easy. Enjoy a streamlined listening experience to our free shows and unlock all the VIP exclusives, including our post-pay-per-view roundtables, the Wade Keller news bulletins, everything with Rich and Wade, the fix that I host with Todd Martin, and a variety of other VIP exclusives. Just search PWTorch in your Apple Podcast app. Spencer in Joliet, Illinois is up next. Spencer, welcome to the show. Thanks for holding. What's on your mind about SmackDown tonight?

1:56:18 Yes. Thank you, Wade, for taking my call. And I'm sorry, but I'm going to go on just a mini rant, and you can just stop me whenever. I just want to talk about simple storytelling. That's it. And tonight, with the... And you just... you just alluded to it with the whole swapping of the titles in the range and how it's now a farce. And I've just, I will just never forget watching nitro back in 1996, 97. And they were saying how Ric Flair is a 13 time champion, but now I look back on it and at least he was 13 time champion and but at least it took him 20 years to be 13-time champion. So, and it kind of goes to how you were saying or how in the past 25 years, especially with Triple H when Eric Bischoff did give him the title. But I

1:57:22 just want to just talk about how simple storytelling. If Becky Lynch was going to be, if this was going to be the end result, her being the Raw Women's Champion, why could you just not tell the story of of her when she gave up the belt a year and a half ago when she said the man is now going to be a mom. And why couldn't you just tell the story of her getting her title back, losing the title. I mean, relinquishing the title that she never lost.

1:57:57 And you could have just told a feel good story. Now I held out on the whole, her turning heel and beating Bianca and all that. But at this point, I can't hold out and say let's let it play out because this is not helping any of the women. Sasha looks bad in this. Charlotte looks bad. Bianca Belair, she's such a strong baby face that it's hurting her.

1:58:29 But it's not hurting her to the point where it's going to damage her because people love her so much. She's such a great athlete. What she can do in the ring is phenomenal. And she has that likable personality. So... But it's hurting all the women that this is all going on. Because Becky chooses when to be a heel and when to not be a heel and when to be a tweener. It's just all so convoluted to the point where... Because her character... And she tried to cover for it tonight instead of just handing the belt to Charlotte and being like, okay. So she tried to cover for it a little bit. But then she chooses to be a heel when she's like, well, I'm going to go to Raw and you two figure it out, meaning

1:59:21 Charlotte and Sasha, and I'll see y'all at SummerSlam. No, if you're the badass that you say you are, you say, you know what, forget all this. I do want to be Becky Two Belts and I'll take on, I already won a triple threat. Let's go again. So don't tease it like Charlotte did saying, oh, you want to be Becky Two Belts. Let's do a winner take all and have the contrived, okay, bam, here comes Sasha out. It doesn't make anybody look good. If this was going to be the end result, simple storytelling says, you tell the story of her going back to Raw originally and she fights for the belt. And regardless of rumors or if Sasha couldn't be there or whatever, they knew that day and days leading up that she was not going to

2:00:14 be there. So the easy story to tell is do what NXT used to do before they were 2.0. Have Bianca Belair get beat up at SummerSlam and you can still get the pop of Becky Lynch coming out and saving Bianca Belair it doesn't have to be a match people are going to go crazy because Bianca just I mean because Becky Lynch just came out save Bianca and then you can have the story of her fighting to get the belt back that she never lost. I don't get why, if this was going to be the end result, simple storytelling. Have her go after the Raw belt, which, in irony, it's all about the brand, but then you make your brand look less by switching titles like this.

2:01:04 This doesn't make your brand look better. If it's all supposed to be about brand supremacy... Well, then have Becky say that. Have Becky say, I want to go after the Raw Women's title because that is the belt I had to relinquish when I had to go become a mom, and I haven't been beat for that belt. So that is the only belt I care about. But yet you undercut your brand and you undercut the belt by doing this silly stuff. So if this was supposed to be the end, Why didn't you do that from the beginning?

2:01:39 And I'm sorry for ranting, but it's just that it's simple. It's not rocket science. It's simple. If this was going to be your end result, which shows everybody you guys are being honest. it's it's it's past it passed on the fly it's you're booking hour by hour day by day you're booking the day of and you don't have the wherewithal or the creative juices to even think of of how to get out of this in a creatively satisfying fashion yeah okay and that that just mind boggles me okay i'm.

2:02:19 Sorry no that's okay i've wanted to let you get it out of your system and you kept You were adding layers and new points to the point you're making. So that's fine. But I want to throw the mic on this and get your thoughts, Mike, on stepping back for a minute and just how they did this. In fact, before I do that, because I'll read this email we got.

2:02:39 Dom from Cleveland. It's right to the point. I really did not care for the title swap segment this evening on SmackDown. I thought they devalued the titles and all involved presented themselves as extremely immature. I'm surprised that a lot of people weren't headed for the door as it Really didn't lead to anything, but Sasha coming out for a cheap pop. Thanks and go VIP. You know, once Sasha's music played, you're like, oh, yeah, okay. So they're just going to, you know, they're hitting the escape hatch.

2:03:05 Music interrupts as they tease a match that they're not going to deliver. Or they might deliver a Survivor Series, but we've teased you with, planted the seed of that being an option. But, I mean, so Mike, I guess my direct question to you, and you can respond to anything also that Dom said or Spencer said, Did this seem like a master plan to you that you just either liked or didn't like, but a master plan? Or did it seem like, all right, we got to this point.

2:03:31 Now let's address how we're going to get out of it.

2:03:33 No, of course it's not a master plan. I hope not. A master plan to swap belts? It was almost a completely just clean swap. It was one step shy of being what you described earlier in the show, Wade, of it just happening with a still photograph that's posted on Twitter. Oh, they swapped belts and now we're moving forward like this.

2:04:01 End of story. That can't have been anybody's endgame. I think they found themselves here. And what Spencer just outlined might have been thought about. from time to time by members of the writing staff or whatever but um the week to week booking is the term that that's popping in my head right now and that's what leads to a show like tonight or a main event like tonight i should say and yeah sasha showing up the classic uh interruption yeah wait.

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2:05:31 And part of what we see tonight is a consequence of not having built anything beyond a few top-tier wrestlers, men's and women's, And then a bunch of interchangeable mid-carders who just trade 50-50 wins without wrestlers on real, you know, I talk about a lot, journeys. Like where wins and losses can bring you higher or lower on the card.

2:05:50 Where there's consequences to matches. Because if you have that, and AEW does that well. Well, they do it. We can debate how well they do it. And I don't mean that as a judgment or a hedge. I'm just saying I don't want to get in that situation. argument at this point or or nuance just they do that like the idea is you're watching wrestlers who if you last eight or ten minutes with the top star and you lose that's still a win wow this person showed promise it's like watching your nba team with some second and third year players who by the time they're in year five and seven of their career might be great might be winning titles and and aw has that sports that consciousness of how sports work And Vince McMahon and

2:06:29 Kevin Dunn and John Laurinaitis and Bruce Prichard, it's just not their thing. So that hasn't been their thing and it isn't their thing. So what you end up with then, and this is where I'm leading, is you don't have wrestlers you can put in that main event spot that you trust your viewers will care about or see as important.

2:06:46 You don't have a sports story that's told that's with a wrestler who's been showing promise, who you can plug into a main event against another top guy. No, you have to have Becky and Charlotte out there. And every week, Vince McMahon is trying to just scratch and claw to get to some segment that will qualify this week as main event worthy or top segment worthy, no matter what it takes, no matter what logic there is or isn't, and how stale and how many times it just feels like a re- A slight reshaping of something we've seen six times before. It's the only people and the only issue we have that we can end the show with.

2:07:22 So let's just find another way to make it work. And instead of going, all right, let's look at the next five, six weeks. Let's get a philosophy going where, you know, we're going to have different things headlining the show because we have a deep ensemble roster of wrestlers people care about. And an integrity to our match finishes that leads to people thinking, if you see a match, we'll know something more at the end of it than we knew at the beginning. And WWE just doesn't build that into their structure. So then they end up having to do stuff like this. The music interrupts and Bayley bails out and nothing's really accomplished. And so part of this is that. It's not that this is a booking philosophy.

2:07:58 It's actually the philosophy. side effect of the booking philosophy that's too narrow-minded.

2:08:06 And what also happens is you're expending their star power. Yeah. I love Sasha. I think she's great. Becky's great. Charlotte's great. Bianca's great. Whenever Bayley comes back from her injury, she's great. But the problem is they are expending it and they are wearing it too thin to a point where people are going to start because people already resent Charlotte. But what's going to happen is people will start to resent the rest of of the four horsewomen or people start to resent Bianca Belair and you don't want that. So you don't put them in because none of the women tonight look good. Your top three women in the company, Charlotte, Becky, Sasha, your top three women, none of them look good.

2:09:01 None of them.

2:09:01 And then what they're going to do is they're going to try to turn Sasha back face into against Charlotte because Charlotte is the ultimate heel, which she should be. She should be the heel because that is her best.

2:09:14 That's her best.

2:09:16 That's what she's best fit. But if you're going to do Charlotte and Sasha again, well, now Sasha is the de facto baby face in this scenario. She's going to have to be. And You're going to do that, and now you're cutting off her heel run. Yes, Sasha's popular, but she's best as a heel. And now you're going to undercut her heel run to go to a feud with Charlotte. It's like they only think– they don't even think one step ahead. They just think that– whatever, whatever they see five feet in front of them, that is what they think. They don't even, they don't even think 10 feet ahead of them. And it's just, it's just so, it's just so frustrating because with the whole, like, and I agree with the whole, you know, Roman and Paul,

2:10:08 they took a step back tonight, but by and large, it has been a great story since, since he came back last year, it has been a great story. And it's like, why can't they take this type of care and, and nuance and just, just thinking with, with 75% of everything else, I'm not even asking for a hundred percent, but just 75%. So it's like, that's what makes it so frustrating because you see the Roman race on it.

2:10:40 And like I said, by and large over the past 18 months, it has been a very good story. Wait, wait, I have to say, why can't they just wait?

2:10:48 When did Roman come back?

2:10:50 I'm sorry.

2:10:51 I want to fact check this because Roman said that. When did Roman come back?

2:10:55 Wasn't it before? It was before SummerSlam.

2:10:58 Right, right before SummerSlam.

2:10:59 Was that SummerSlam last year?

2:11:01 Yeah, SummerSlam last year, right before SummerSlam. Right around SummerSlam. So that was August.

2:11:06 Okay.

2:11:06 So we're not 18 months.

2:11:10 And you're fine. Roman said that. And I just, I wanted to make an issue of that. Roman's like for 18 months or a year and a half. It's like, no, it'll be a year and a half in February, like late February. That's a long ways off. So let's not get ahead of ourselves. So I'm just inserting that as a little, little fact check on, on Roman, who, by the way, his performance, Spencer was, was brilliant tonight. I mean, he is, he is a joy to watch. Um, Heyman's great. Uh, Lesnar is so fun in this, this new, you know, just, I don't give a shit role of the bad-ass just showing up. And I mean, you know, I, you beat up a camera guy who I don't think did anything to deserve it. And I, you know, I've, I find,

2:11:46 you know, my sensibility is don't put baby faces to beat up civilians. You know, it's one thing if the wrestlers come out and, you know, choose to try to stop you and you can toss them aside, but, you know, smashing the camera is one thing, but beating up a guy who's just a camera guy. I don't, I, I don't like the culture of presentation that frames that as heroic or being worthy of cheers. But I also understand, you know, it's wrestling into the context that fans cheer stuff.

2:12:06 It's not disqualifying or that huge of a deal. But I would edit that a little bit. But in terms of his body language and the joy of performance he seems to have right now, that's been a blast. I will say in critiquing the Reigns storyline, it's been, you know, best thing on WWE TV. The last 14 months. But I still wish they had done more with Jay and Jimmy. And, you know, I don't know if the Jimmy DUI just sort of derailed that or what. Or crowds came back and they decided to tell less of that soap opera.

2:12:31 But I kind of miss, you know, the dynamic between Jay and Jimmy being distinct. And they've just sort of, you know. So I feel like what they did with Jay, and then they just sort of dropped it and just moved on. It's sort of what we're getting with Can Heyman Be Trusted. I think they're just going to drop it.

2:12:47 and expect us to be okay with it so as much as I hate praise on on that storyline and and Roman's performances and I thought this was one of his best weeks I am limiting my you know like there are some things still worth critiquing about it but anyway Spencer wrap up kind of quick because we're past to our mark and I don't want to um I've given you a lot of space to rant and I think it's been good but don't don't give us another three minutes.

2:13:14 Okay yeah yeah oh no I'm done I appreciate you I appreciate you giving me giving me this much you let me get out what I wanted to get out and thank you so much.

2:13:24 Wade awesome thank you Spencer good to hear from you.

2:13:29 Yes I just want to say everybody go VIP Wade I've been loving it and I think I'm going to be lifetime VIP so everybody check it out because it took me a long time and you'll love it so thanks Wade thanks again Thanks, Spencer.

2:13:42 Yeah, we're just trying to break down people's resistance to paying for something that they get for free. But without our paid members, we wouldn't be doing this. And as our VIP members who do break down and fit us into their budget, they testify to it constantly on this show and in emails telling people to go VIP. So check us out if you're a loyal listener to the free show and you can support us. There's multiple ways to do it through Patreon and And our VIP site, full details at pwtorch.com slash govip. You know that last segment you're just listening to and the next one that you're waiting to listen to? Those can be one second apart with a VIP membership. You can unlock our commercial-free

2:14:23 versions of our shows. pwtorch.com slash govip tells you how to do it. That's pwtorch.com. slash GoVIP. Options exist within the Apple Podcast app using your Apple account, through Patreon, which, by the way, you can sync up with Spotify, or just about any iOS or Android app. With a full VIP membership, you can customize the feed for individual shows and clusters of shows and themes. Go to pwtorch.com slash GoVIP for full details on all the options to listen commercial-free, and with upper-tier options, unlock our VIP-exclusive podcasts that run throughout the week every week. Mike, your thoughts on any of that that I just said, including, you know, Reigns' performance in Lesnar and how he's being, you know, not

2:15:12 compromised as, you know, Bob Backlund-esque Goody Two-Shoes by any means. But man, is he, you know, enjoyable right now, too.

2:15:22 No, I mentioned earlier, I really love the first segment with Lesnar, Reigns, the Usos, the Regarding the camera guy who took a bump for Brock, I want to say– because I want to be in support of this segment. I want to say Brock was totally pumped up. He's fighting three grown men, and he doesn't– he didn't mean to hurt the guy. He meant to push him aside.

2:15:50 He doesn't know his own strength when dealing with a civilian, and the guy wound up on his ass.

2:15:55 Okay, fair. I will cling to that. I'm all for that.

2:15:58 Okay.

2:15:59 Like, but, you know, it's weird, but, like, I'd like Cole to say something like, hey, I know Brock's in a rage right now, but that camera guy just showed up to do his job. And Mac, if he can be like, well, you got to keep your distance from a beast like that when he's red-faced and out of control. You know, like, just give me a little acknowledgement that maybe we need to, you know, not just applaud blindly that kind of notion. Anyway, go ahead. But you've made me feel better. I'll sleep better. Good.

2:16:24 I'm glad. Spencer mentioned, well... The whole crux of his rant was about good storytelling, which I think often is simple storytelling in pro wrestling. And we're not quite getting that here anymore with... Well, that was mainly about the women's title situation. And speaking of PDB Torch VIP, when I first started... listening to vip shows and especially like flashback shows uh where there were interviews with prior writers for wwe before i pieced everything together about what's really going on i thought every writer that's ever i've ever heard interviewed is talk sense and they seem to understand and appreciate the business yeah so why so often do Does the writing not make sense? And it all comes

2:17:30 down to who they're writing for, which isn't each other. It isn't the viewers at home. It's the man in charge of the company. And I'm oversimplifying things, but that's why shit doesn't make sense so often and just fizzles so often. um and it was an interesting way to to piece that together uh listening to to the writers talk and but when you get 30 or 40 of them in a room and they're all trying to please one guy and some of them more than others trying to preserve their jobs it becomes what we see. So it's not ideal, but I just want to throw that in is what you get with a lot of older torch interviews. It's really eyeopening in weird ways.

2:18:28 Very good. I appreciate that. Yes, it definitely is. Mike, is there anything on SmackDown we did not talk about that you have something to say about as small as a lot, Aaliyah and what she said or any, anything. I'm not sure if we left anything kind of big off that you wanted to bring up or even a small sidebar point.

2:18:47 A couple of things. You mentioned Aaliyah. Do you know exactly what she said?

2:18:51 No.

2:18:52 Because I rewound it.

2:18:53 Three times. I did it three times.

2:18:55 Me too.

2:18:55 Yep.

2:18:58 What, what, what did it sound like to you?

2:19:01 Okay. I wrote down, I rewound it three times and I wrote down three possibilities and I'm, I'm not ruling out I might be wrong on all three. But SmackDown is going to become a whole lot more booty, beauty, or bushy, which is not a word as far as I know.

2:19:20 And I settled on bushy. And I even went with closed caption thinking, well, if they have access to a script and maybe there was a word that they got fed and they didn't help me on that one. Um, or I just gave up, I guess. So I, I don't, I, to me it was something like bushy and I'm like, well, maybe I don't, maybe that's some cool new phrase among, you know, that's the, the hashtag on IG or something. I, you know, whatever. So I was like, well, I'll just let it go. You know, we'll find out. But no, it was, it wasn't, it was muffled and it wasn't clear and it made me miss big words on the screen.

2:19:52 You know, they could have just put it up there in a big font. We're going to get bushy. And then we would know. So maybe it was meant to be.

2:19:59 And we've potentially now exposed ourselves to being out of touch with the cool youth culture.

2:20:03 Well, I've got a 12-year-old, and I'm constantly going, now do I do all caps LOL? Or do I go capital L and then small OL? Or is it all lowercase? Am I allowed to say sup? Or does that sound like I'm trying to be too cool or too young? And what are we saying now? And he's explaining ite to me instead of all rights in the context you can and can't use it. So I'll check with him.

2:20:24 I'll have him watch it, and he can tell me if that's a word. By the way, I'm just going to say for the next seven years, give or take, I'm going to be in good shape as far as what the kids are talking about because I'm around constantly. So if you think I've been out of touch for 20 years, just wait, people, because I'm about to get in touch with what the kids are doing, what the teens are, what's cool with the teens for the next six years.

2:20:49 Another note I had, we talked a bit about Hit Row earlier, but I need to mention– that Michael Cole did a thing, which I really don't like. I might've let it slide, except he did it twice. I say he did it. It was a part of the WWE scripting, but they, they ran this little video package for hit row. Then the hit row had their match. Two of the members had their match against the jobbers. And Michael Cole said they are confident, charismatic, competitive, and captivating. And I hate the commentators using, such prescribed adjectives to describe the things that are on the screen in front of me, not letting them speak for themselves or letting me decide what I think of them, but telling me what to

2:21:36 think because they're not confident enough or something in the talent to, to push that on the viewers. And I actually get the impression that they could make a strong impression on us. And that would bug me if I'm them. I think like, I don't want Michael Cole, like doing this, uh, like rattling off scripted adjectives about me, let them perform and make me feel how I feel. Don't tell me how I'm supposed to feel about them. And the, the alliteration was a little weird as well. I know you, you like that being a Paul Heyman thing, but this was a very scripted Cole thing, uh, that really bothered me for hit row.

2:22:18 I I'm, I'm totally with you. Um, I, I, when, when Michael Cole said, you know, it's boss time, he didn't do it with the usual inflection that I'm just like, okay, she's not cool anymore. I don't care how much you love her. It's boss time. You know, the way he would say it, like Cole was not blessed, um, with putting his stamp of coolness on things. Um, you know, that, that's not something you would go to Michael Cole for. Um, so, um, you have to kind of pick your spots when you script him to convey what the official message is on how we're supposed to react to things. He was more toned down with Sasha tonight, which was good. But yeah, there's some acts that I think need to speak for themselves or even better. Let Michael Cole not be exactly

2:23:12 sure what's cool and what's not and let the people decide and then have Michael Cole, instead of telling us how to feel, simply acknowledge how the crowd is reacting to them. And I think that's a, A better way is to lead, is to have Cole's response to whether an act is cool or not be him reading the crowd instead of him leading the crowd or seemingly trying to lead us in a certain direction. So, yeah, I'm with you on that. And that's what I would add to that. And by the way, Tom Stout has said it is Wade. It's a bougie and it's short for B-O-U-R-G-E-O-I-S.

2:23:50 And I think I know how to pronounce it, but if I get it wrong, then people are going to make fun of me forever. So I'm going to leave it to you, Mike, to tell us how to say that.

2:24:03 I'll wager, I guess, bourgeoisie. I might be wrong.

2:24:07 And what it actually.

2:24:08 Means, according to dictionary.com.

2:24:12 Okay, just get to how to pronounce it.

2:24:14 Derived from French, this is why we have this weird spelling pattern with a lot of letters that we don't pronounce but what's new that's.

2:24:21 English okay get to it to pronounce the word bourgeois we start with.

2:24:25 A b bourgeois bourgeois there we are i'm gonna trust her she looked like she knew what she was talking about all right so alia's been saying it for a few years on nxt oh okay all right i haven't heard hip kids say it in years but then again i don't hang around with many hip kids I'm not being– I'm probably not being helpful, but in case you see this, I do agree she mush-mouthed the word tonight.

2:24:49 So– okay. So Boji. All right. Well, good, good. There we are.

2:24:57 Well, I would not have picked up on it even if she hadn't mush-mouthed the word. So I'm out of touch. Here we are.

2:25:05 It's 2021. I'm seeing what turns up here.

2:25:06 All right.

2:25:08 So– It's lyrics. Okay, so hold on here. Doing live research. B-O-U-J-I compared to, where's my tab on that? Okay, so B-O-U-J-E-E is coming up on Google, and it commonly refers to middle class or upwardly mobile black people. I'm not sure that's what it is going for here. okay let's let's get yeah and then i know that now urban dictionary is spelling it b-o-u-j-i and it means stuck up snobbish or thinking you're better than others because your economic status represents a capitalist class over peasants um again i just don't know how that fits with i don't know if that's something you would self-brag about.

2:26:03 Yeah are we to appreciate that yeah yeah um interesting well you know live live and learn um And, uh, yeah.

2:26:12 She kind of mush malted as, as Tom put it, which is a good way to put it. Well, there we have it. Um, if those of you stuck, stuck around to the end, uh, you, you learned with us or you laughed at us one or the other.

2:26:23 I was going to, yeah, there's a couple of 15 year olds who are having their own podcast playing this audio, laughing their asses off right now.

2:26:31 Well, good, good for them. Um, we bring it on. That's what we're here for. Um, I'll take it. That would be fun if someone did that. All right. Well, on that note, Mike, thank you so much. A fun conversation on a wide array of topics, some good passionate calls, some fun emails, and even a DM that helped contribute to the conversation.

2:26:59 Yeah, Wade, thanks for having me. If anybody wants to find me on Twitter, they can. It's at TheMikeShow42. com. And you can find my reports at pubtorch.com. I write the weekly WWE main event report, soon to be shaken up, I assume, because of the rosters now being in place. And also the WWE pay-per-view kickoff reports. I write live as they happen. So, yeah, thanks for having me, Wade.

2:27:25 It's been fun.

2:27:26 Absolutely. Follow me on Twitter at TheWadeKeller. And you can always DM me live in a show, during a show, or tweet at me. And also at PWTorch. Follow us at PWTorch on Twitter. too, for our main brand with links to our articles and also breaking news, including trying to be first with ratings so Tony Khan can then retweet us and be very happy with some of the numbers.

2:27:54 He's probably not going to retweet the numbers he's not happy with, so. Yeah, so follow us there. And, of course, check us out tomorrow night after AW Dynamite right here, same channel, same place. Thanks, Mike. Thanks to all our callers, our listeners, all of you. I thank all of you. And until next time, Wade Keller signing off. Your time is valuable. Go VIP and listen to our shows commercial free.

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