WWE RAW POST-SHOW (10/19): Keller & Weigle talk 946 retreating after Roman shows up, Sami-Roman summit, Gable, Breakker, Penta, Tessitore

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1:25 slash GoVIP. Now, PWTorch brings you the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show. It's time to talk this week's WWE Monday Night Raw. All right, Paul. Roman Reigns. Full baby face again. Crowd totally behind him. He is the ultimate contextual wrestler these days. Opposite pent, opposite LA Knight. Things tilt strongly or partially away from him. But the crowd was ready for him to take on the 9-4-6. And they did. We had Bloodline and 9-4-6 getting a big brawl.

2:12 9-4-6 retreated. The announcers did a good job on their mission to make this seem like a monumental moment that had been weeks in the making. What did you think?

2:23 Yeah, this was a pretty satisfying first encounter between the full strength of the bloodline and the full strength of the 946. They pulled a nice, you know, trap that the bloodline seemed to have set for the 946 by making it seem like Roman had left the building, like Solo was injured, and then having them as the forces kept in reserve to even the odds.

2:49 So, a fun encounter, and... Yeah, it made me interested to see more.

2:55 Yeah.

2:56 So what do you make of... A couple of things I want to bring up here, but I'll start with this. What do you make of the way Carmelo Hayes was sort of officially introduced? Because we got a soundbite, a little vignette, and he used kind of a takeoff on his catchphrase that he's been using about not missing. And we didn't get any kind of other explanation. So I was left wanting more.

3:20 I also.

3:22 kind of wonder what would he say. I don't think there's an obvious thing for him to say that might not make it more about him than WWE wants it to be. If I'm to get in their heads, that's my guess. They don't want this to be about him. They want it to be about Roman. And they just want him to be a guy you just accept being absorbed into the group. But how about you?

3:42 Yeah, I think that fits into the fact that we haven't heard enough from the 946 in general. We have a general idea that this is all about Royce Keyes' wanting revenge, which, you know, he has a legitimate beef, but has he.

3:56 Even said that?

3:57 Has he even, they have talked about what their mission is or why? I think that there's so much more they could say.

4:05 We don't know what the OTM, what.

4:08 Those guys, what their purpose is besides being aligned. So we don't know why Jada Keys has, sorry, Jada Parker has joined.

4:17 Or what her thought is.

4:19 So we're really lacking a mission statement in general, and then maybe some differentiation between members, including the newest member.

4:29 Yeah, and so the lack of a mission statement for the 946, but menace, and the announcer saying everyone's on edge, and the 946 saying no one is safe. Do you think there is something that will be revealed? And so maybe there's a reason we're not hearing that yet because it's actually being saved for a moment. And I'll throw out there, we haven't seen or heard from Jacob Batu.

4:57 They're not updating his situation. I think it was Jay brought him up. The Usos brought him up. I mean, he got hit by a car, so it seems like he would for sure be on the side of the bloodline unless it was, I haven't gone back and rewatched the footage, but maybe he practiced taking a, I don't know, maybe got hit in the head and he decided I better, if I can't beat him, I join him. And he's the mastermind behind it all. I don't know what other twists there could be to just, I bring that up just to justify why they might not have Royce Keyes explain his mission because the mission is actually something else.

5:30 Like I said, I don't know that that makes sense, but it's certainly out there as an option. Heck, Jason D. from Australia on Friday's SmackDown Post Show suggested, you know what I'm doing here, that Roman was going to be the leader of the 9-4-6 and turn on his guys. And then Jacob Batu would have to show up for the bloodline and align with Solo and the Usos. there was a moment I know I'm throwing a lot at you here, but there was a moment where they're staring at each other and Roman hadn't been hit by the nine for six yet. He hadn't hit them milk in the moment. And I, I mean, only because of Jason, I wouldn't have really thought about it otherwise, but, I thought Roma was going to just take two steps to

6:04 the 9-4-6, spin around, look at the bloodline, and then somehow Joe Tessitore would have to act more enthusiastic than he was when Funko Pop came out, which would have been impossible because that was peak-level announcer reaction in terms of intensity. Not Funko Pop. So I did not, I was not willing to bet a dollar to win $ 100 that that was going to happen, but, but, I was like, what if Jason is right? What a moment that would be.

6:34 So anyway, absolutely.

6:36 Yeah.

6:36 I have to tell you, I listened to the, the poster. I heard you guys talk about that. I was thinking the same thing when they're all lining up, nobody was putting their hands on Roman.

6:45 I thought if the, if there's going to, if it's going to happen, this is the moment. So yeah, it was a lot of fun.

6:53 So kind of to my original question before I went on the sidebars, Eric Moy underlines it here. I think it's okay to give it a slow build. Is it, okay to have the 946 up to something, but we don't know why. Is it okay for us to think we don't know, they don't want us to know yet, but it'll probably come out? I don't think that's a flaw in the storyline unless you watch this through the lens of WWE's booking is flawed, it's imperfect, it's sloppy, and we're probably not going to get an explanation and they think it doesn't matter because it's all about facial expressions and vignettes and car crash angles.

7:31 Yeah.

7:32 I mean, so I think you're right that if there turns out to be a mystery leader, which you'd have to, none of it would make sense. I mean, completely. Jacob Fatu or L.A. Knight or I don't, I'm not in love with any of that, but that could certainly explain why they're delaying, you know, giving their mission statement, much like the NWO didn't really say what they were about till Hulk Hogan showed up.

7:58 Right.

7:59 Um, so, uh, so yeah, I, I think that, that, that could work, but like you, I, I trust in WWE storytelling, but.

8:07 Not that much. I'm worried. We're just not going to get that explanation. Um, and, and they just, and.

8:12 Talk about the, the, the, the promo that they cut the nine, four, six, just said their, their catchphrases and Mello said his, I mean, it was really.

8:20 It was as close to nothing as, as you could get. I mean, They look great. They seem menacing. I like them, but I'd love to learn more about them.

8:30 All right. King of the North PW says, I think for Goldfish Brain WWE fans who love to give Paul Levesque every benefit of the doubt, this all works. Okay. Fair enough. Darrell Freeman, who will be joining us as a caller soon, says 946 have been waiting for Roman and seeing him come out and waiting for him is okay in that old way of thinking and booking.

8:52 Okay.

8:52 But today what they had them do when he came out hurt them more than help him. So let's address that because they did retreat and they have been no one safe. They've been ominous. They've been menacing. They lost a four on four even fight. Does that undercut them and hurt them?

9:14 Yeah.

9:15 Your thoughts.

9:16 I think I'm wondering if what Darrell was referring to was actually not that they lost the fight, but when Roman appeared, they kind of cringed, right? They all retreated to the other side of the ring, even though they had, it was just Roman at that point. I mean, they had beaten down three of his comrades and they all kind of looked, you know, scared. And I think that their defense is that they were surprised. They didn't expect him there. He was the cavalry coming in. and that just wasn't what they were expecting. So I think that's the defense for them. I think it's okay that they were sent packing, given that the Usos and Romans set this trap for them. But I do think Durrell's right, that they that that was the moment that I don't know.

9:57 They sold a little too much there. Their intimidation by Reigns.

10:02 Yeah. Sadler says, I agree. In this first confrontation, it made sense for Roman to come out strong. It would make the bloodline look like scrubs if they got down again. Um, so that's the counter argument. Um, this was a result of, uh, let's see, Derek Mitchell had said earlier, we all know Roman is self-absorbed and egotistical, but at the end of the day, Roman is going to be there for his family, especially heading into war games. Um, oh, and, uh, Derek adds one after one brawl with Roman, that doesn't mean nine for six will end poorly the way Cena was credited for squashing the Nexus.

10:37 Um, sure. Yeah.

10:37 Let's not blow it out of proportion either way, but, I mean, if Roman shows up and the bloodline get wiped out in a four-on-four situation, you know, you need to have a set of circumstances where fans are looking and going, okay, if not for this, the bloodline would have been fine. But if, I mean, it's hard for the Roman Reigns. This is a case with top wrestlers over the decades. They don't always do what makes the most sense in the moment. with top stars being involved, be it a pay-per-view match, a pay-per-view finish, the balance of offense, promo time, or an angle like this. Promoting promoters, smart ones who want to make money, and this doesn't mean it's a free pass for every situation, but they know,

11:31 and this is what I've been advocating for AW to do with Will Ospreay, by the way, just pick a guy and do it. You can say Will's got flaws and he needs some editing or some guidance and some curating and all of that. Yes, I agree with that, but Sometimes you've got to pick a guy and give him a priority of protection. And Roman Reigns has a priority of protection. He is somebody who, if he shows up for the first time, that overrides the logic that I think rightfully in the chat they're bringing up, which is, well, what about the 9-4-6? It takes something away from them.

12:05 They're still in the Roman Reigns business. They're not in the Royce Keys or Carmelo Hayes business. So you can't have Roman show up the first time And lose a fair 4 on 4 fight. So you need to come up with something. That would explain.

12:18 Why he.

12:19 That wasn't enough to tip the scales. If you don't have that. They're just simply not going to tell that story. So the argument will now be. Well the 946 are clearly heels. They retreated. And they can't win a fair 4 on 4.

12:33 Fight.

12:34 That's the message sent. So now they'll have to use other tactics. And so I would say. Let's wait for the next chapter to see. what they do. I mean, I'm again, Jacob, I choose the next factor out there. There's, um, other things that a heel group can do to get an advantage that puts heat on them.

12:53 Yeah, I agree.

12:53 And nine, four, six has won their first couple encounters.

12:57 I guess the one at money in the bank was a more of a draw, but they've, they've won more encounters than they've lost. So this isn't a retribution type situation where the first time they, you know, they ended up in a match, they just got squashed and that, and, and, uh, And that was it. No, I think they're still in good position for sure.

13:14 Yeah.

13:15 All right. Crofton, who will be joining us as a caller too in a moment, says the camera loves Royce Keyes. When he was walking out with the group to no music, it felt like a big deal. They can add another member, but he should lead. I am impressed with his presence. So let's circle back to Carmelo Hayes for a moment here.

13:32 I think we learned Carmelo is not like the new leader spokesman of the group. I don't think he should have been, but it was possible management might say, Hey, Royce is better as the guy who closes out the promo with a few words, but we need someone who can carry the bulk of the promo. And they might've thought Carmelo could be that guy. And they had confidence in him. We didn't, we can't rule that out, but we didn't see any indication of that tonight. Royce Keyes did the talking. Carmelo had a few words. Royce closed out the promo. Royce still seems like the leader of, both in how he got filmed, how Solo's the one who swept his leg, and Carmelo was a bit of an afterthought even in the brawl. Again, which is fine.

14:13 I'm just saying we were waiting since last week to get some indications of how he'd be put into this group. I'm not saying he's going to be Danny Garcia to the Death Riders or Buddy Roberts to the Freebirds. I wrote that in the VIP forum earlier today. VIP members, go check it out. I don't think it's to that degree, but he's not going to be.

14:33 I'm trying to think of a historical analogy of somebody who would be the lead spoke. There's probably something obvious chat help out or Paul help out where somebody like Carmelo Hayes would be the main talker, not a manager, a credible wrestler, but a S a smaller guy who was the good worker, but also ended up being the top spokesperson.

14:53 Yeah.

14:54 Yeah.

14:55 No, no indication of that. Yeah.

14:57 I wonder what his role is, is going to be, you know, I, I do think these factions were, they work best when, when each individual figures out how they connect with the others and the role they play in the group. And sort of as the little guy, I guess, it'll be a challenge for him to come up with that.

15:18 I think we still may see him take a bigger part in talking. I don't think Royce Keyes said too much with this promo either. They each just said a sentence, so not much.

15:30 Yep.

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16:08 The Fix with Todd Martin that I host with Todd every week, the Wade Keller News Bulletin's post-pay-per-view roundtables, and an array of other VIP-exclusive podcasts with different hosts and different themes. Check out the lineup. Go to Patreon and search PWTorch and subscribe and sync it up with Spotify or stay within the Patreon ecosystem. Either way works. Go to Patreon and start your seven-day free trial. ScytherVision3 says, I expect 946 to win war games. They need to make them stars. They need that to make them stars.

16:40 Roman then can get his win back in a one-on-one title match against Roy somewhere after that. I think that makes total sense and is probably the right path. And the fact that 946 retreated is a bit of a tell in the way pro wrestling is promoted that they will end up winning more games, but you want to make it seem like they're overcoming something, uh, formidable, not just have the bloodlines number. Uh, Darrell adds, uh, they took out everyone before rains came out. So it wasn't real four and four because all the other guys were down and that is the loophole they needed. Um, so yeah, there did, by the way, did you think, uh, there's any chance Sammy Zane was going to come out during this to try to like show allegiance to one side

17:23 or the other, get involved in this. Or I, I mean, you don't, I, I'm not advocating for this, but I'm conjuring up a scenario that could have happened where Sammy ran out. The announcers go, which side is he on?

17:34 Is he going to be with Roman?

17:35 Who's going to be with the knife? And then Sammy looks at everything, goes, nevermind. And he turns around and leaves. I don't think you want levity in this angle.

17:43 Good point. They might not need levity.

17:45 I would not rule out that he's part of the five. If they make a five, one, five for war games.

17:50 That he's part. If there is yet.

17:52 Another member of the 9-4-6, I wouldn't rule out Sammy rejoining as a feel-good moment.

17:59 Yeah.

18:00 Kavante Smalls says, I'm glad Ellie Knight was not on the show. I think giving him a separation for the bloodline does him some good. He is an X-Factor out there, too. You could have Ellie Knight, Jacob Batu, Sammy Zane, if they want to make it five on five. Yeah. Drell adds, I just would like to see them Continue to build new guys who seem to have an upside, but they haven't been looked down upon with fans. They haven't been defined down yet. Yeah. Cavante says, I thought Jada was going to be the difference maker. She didn't get, you know, much special tonight. Eric Moy says it's got to be Jacob being the fifth for the bloodline. I mean, that is the. Occam's razor, the path of least resistance in

18:40 terms of guessing what you're going to do here.

18:43 Yeah.

18:44 All right. Oh, and just another touch. Kavante Small says, I'm glad 946 does not have entrance music. I absolutely like that. The fact that they're let in the building with the things that they've done, it's, you know, why are they getting past metal detectors and security? If you allow for that in, you know, the creative license of trying to tell the story a step too far and they're airing their vignettes. Hey, here's TV time for you guys.

19:11 The NWO bought time on TNT. They didn't get gifted time. Um, they, they're not going that far, but not having music is at least a signal to the fans are the machinery of WWE has not gotten behind them as officially signed wrestlers who were promoting in fights. They are simply a problem that our wrestlers are dealing with and we are letting it happen in the ring instead of outside the ring.

19:38 And that is something Nick Aldis has said he wants to see. I'd like to see the announcers underline that more. I think their idea is the explanation won't be perfect, so let's not draw attention to it because a lot of fans... maybe most aren't even thinking about that because unfortunately by the way unfortunately they're not fans have been conditioned to not think that hard about things making sense they should be and everything would be easier to make matter but the fact is they're not that attention to detail and logic and structure isn't there so wb can it's the benefit of their own floppiness, not explain it.

20:13 But all that said, the lack of music is at least a signal to the fans going, they are different. And I want to give them some credit for that.

20:21 Sure.

20:21 And they also come out, they don't come out from the locker room either. So another hint in that direction.

20:27 Yep. King of the North PW says, this is a company that signed and allowed retribution to get drafted. Remember, I'm not saying you're doing this, King, but past transgressions are not precedent to praise or abstain from criticism of future transgressions. There is a lot of bad booking and a lot of lack of logic and pro wrestling. And often, I'm not saying you're doing that, King, but often fans go, well, this happened and that happened and WWE's still making money and fans are still buying tickets. Yeah, but that doesn't mean we say it's okay. Politicians all lie. Well, yeah, but we can call out the really bad ones that are more destructive and damaging or self-serving. And as Christiane Amanpour said, it's not about neutrality. We are truth tellers.

21:16 We are not aiming for neutrality in our reporting. We're aiming to stand on the side of truth. In her announcement why she's leaving CNN after the buyout of an ultra-conservative corporate entity. So, yes, well put. And if anyone's going to put it well, she would.

21:33 All right. Yeah.

21:33 And King said, and I knew you were. He says, I'm just having fun, man. Sure enough, I get that. Oh, and Sadler says, by the way, I agree, no music would make them unique. It would be cool if it stayed like that. One thing I like about... Oh, I'll add this from Daryl, and then I'll make my comment. Daryl said, I like that touch of them not having music.

21:53 It makes them feel more badass and people you just want to hate, just like it did for Ciampa during his heel run. Yeah, good comparison with Ciampa. I was going to bring up Don Callis. It's music, but it's just a noise. You know, when Don Callis comes out in AEW, it's just... It's just... really annoying noise and it's perfect he doesn't he doesn't i mean he could come out and strut like george jefferson to some you know music and i mean i could see him pulling that off but the idea that he comes out to just a just this screeching noise that you know if you were held captive by some evil government and they wanted you to never get a good night's sleep they would play that 24 7 that is entrance theme and

22:31 it kind of works for him For sure.

22:34 And not having music just yet, it makes them different.

22:36 I can't remember the last act that went on for this long without having any music.

22:41 So it's nice to change things up.

22:45 Yeah.

22:45 Adriel says it gives them that nobody feels safe vibe or feel.

22:49 Indeed.

22:49 Okay.

22:50 Let's not pause. Let's just introduce ourselves quickly here, and then we'll move on to callers and, of course, thus other topics from Raw tonight. This is the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show on Monday, October 19th, 2026. I'm Wade Keller, host of the show, editor, publisher, and founder of the Pro Wrestling Torch weekly newsletter and the website PWTorch.com.

23:12 And also the host of a variety of podcasts. Tomorrow, PW Torch columnist Greg Park is scheduled to join me on the weekly flagship. It is podcast only. So if you're finding us on YouTube, you must, you must sign up on your favorite podcast app by searching Wade Keller, and you'll see a blue logo pop up. That's our podcast-only, audio-only feed that includes our weekly Tuesday night flagship episode.

23:38 We cover a wide array of topics. You're all invited and encouraged to send in questions by email, wadekellerpodcast at gmail.com if you want to suggest a topic or have us respond to something or ask a question. While you're at it, you'll also see a red logo pop up. That's for this, our post shows. If you want to listen, I have so many things I watch on YouTube, and then I also download the podcast depending on my If I'm walking my dog, it's a podcast. If I'm sitting around at work and I want it on in the background, it's usually YouTube. If I'm in the kitchen, it's 50-50, whether I've got the TV on or the phone, if I'm cooking.

24:07 But please, if you're on the YouTube side, subscribe to the podcast feed. Hit refresh every day. We've got new content on both of those feeds throughout the week and also some really cool flashbacks. Tonight is it? We're putting up our 15 years ago TNA Bound for Glory post show, Kurt Angle and Robert Rude in the main event of that pay-per-view 15 years ago. Also had, what was it, Sting was in a big match right before that. Was it Sting Hogan that night?

24:33 I don't know.

24:34 Now I'm curious. Let me see. Bear with me for a second here. Yeah, the Hogan-Sting match was right before that main event. Interesting, yeah. So that's coming up on our Blue Logo show tonight, right before we post a flagship tomorrow night. So lots of cool stuff on those feeds on the podcast site. If you're listening to us on the podcast side of things, which is most of you, you are invited to join us on YouTube, live every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday night. We'd love to have you as live in the audience watching us and also joining us in the chat. We've got the chat going. We've already commented.

25:09 We've already put up their comments and read them on the air. We'll continue to do so. So join them. We go live. There's a link to the show in my TV report at PWTorch. I cover Raw, Dynamite, and SmackDown live every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday night with a recap of the show plus analysis. You are invited to go to the link there and click on it, or you can just subscribe to the PWTorch YouTube channel and go there shortly after the show's end. Paul Weigel is my guest host tonight. He is a writer for PWTorch, the author of Rising and Fading Stars.

25:42 Paul, welcome.

25:44 Thanks for having me, Wade. Excited to be here and talk some wrestling.

25:48 So tell people a little bit about your latest piece for the website.

25:51 Yes.

25:52 Enjoyed the approach you took. I always look forward to, you know, you're not just generically using the same format and the generic format can work if there's enough kind of movement and reasons to say rising or fading, but, um, yeah, you've, you've, you've run with it in a cool way.

26:06 Oh, thanks.

26:07 Yeah.

26:07 So I try to put a different spin on, uh, on various, um, uh, uh, various, um, uh, articles and this week's, which dropped, uh, just, uh, today, I believe, uh, is the Technician Edition, where I look at some of WWE's best workers, in my estimation, in terms of their in-ring wrestling, and some of WWE's worst workers, who is in line for sort of bigger and better things, and who really is not performing at the level.

26:43 They should be. So I hope you check it out. It's always fun to write.

26:49 Now, I will say for the sake of fairness or accuracy for the people who are fading stars, I wouldn't say you think they're the worst technicians. They're on the way down. I think your list of the worst would have been a little different than really like, you know, a couple of names. It's like, well, they were good.

27:05 They're just on the way down.

27:07 Yeah. Yeah.

27:07 Thank you for clarifying.

27:09 Yeah. I don't want you to get any heat for taking classifying people as awful when they're just becoming awful. They're not awful yet. They're just becoming awful.

27:19 Thank you. You could have let me dig my own grave there, but you threw me a little bit.

27:25 Awesome. Okay.

27:26 So let's see. Wade Keller podcast at gmail.com for the flagship tomorrow. Wade Keller post show at gmail.com. If you'd prefer to email us a question or comment while we're on the air, right before we go on the air, we've got the chat.

27:38 Oh yeah.

27:38 If you want to be a caller, get in line. The link to be a caller changes to every show, but you can find it at PWtorch.com. In my TV report, there's a link there to be caller. Just click on it. You'll go in the waiting room. We'll see you there and we'll bring you on. You can turn your camera off if you want to be audio only like our blog talk radio days. We have VIP membership for full details. PWTorchVIPinfo.com. PWTorchVIPinfo.com.

28:01 That includes our PWTorch VIP forum. I posted a link to Paul's article earlier today in the forum and asked for feedback and whether people agree with his list or they had augmented or change it. If you are a VIP member, hop on in and let us know what you think of that. Yeah, lots of fun discussions going on in the forum just for VIP members. It is an authentic community. It's a community of authentic people. No bots, no trolls. We monitor it, make sure everyone's being kind to each other. It's a fun reprieve from the toxic online world otherwise. So if you're looking for a cool place to hang out and talk wrestling with other cool people who are like-minded and just want to have a passion for pro wrestling and do so and have a

28:45 discussion in a civil way. And you'll learn from a lot of people there too. Go VIP. All right. So let's go right to our first caller. Crofton is on hold. We always enjoy talking to Crofton. Welcome. He is a ride or die Sammy fan. I suspect we're going to hear from you about a segment we haven't touched on yet.

29:03 You don't have to lead with it, but the Sammy Roman segment, I'm definitely curious for your.

29:06 Thoughts on it.

29:07 Believe it or not, Wade, I'm going to lead with it.

29:10 Let's do it.

29:11 But just before I do, Paul, I hope you're going to do a rising and falling collars heat chart or something. I think I'm on the way up. And Jason D's theory about Roman joining 946, he's got to be on the way down.

29:27 No offense, Jason.

29:29 As the forum gets rolling over time, we may introduce some very meta in-house things like that and You know, you can vote up or down. or have forum only columns rating. I mean, that can get us in trouble. In the early, earliest years of Pricing Torch newsletter, when I was a teenager, I had all these, the brand of the torch has always been, I think it's because when I started as young, I wanted to learn and I wanted other voices. I followed wrestling enough for dinner of sources to be someone who could just write 12 pages every week all on my own. but I like bringing people together and I networked. And so we had all these diverse writers. It's in the back issues. If you go VIP, by the way, you can read our 1988,

30:07 89 back issues and you'll see what I'm talking about. But I did, I would poll our readers on their favorite columnists on the team and naively thinking everyone's don't, nobody has thin skin or feelings won't be heard. I'll publish them. And so, yeah, so we published our, and I mean, I look back and I'm like, I probably shouldn't have. I probably should have kept that secret, you know, do a, do a, do a blind poll. Um, but yeah, so yeah.

30:37 Yeah.

30:37 I'm going to, I'm not going to tell my boss that she should start putting our performance reviews online and vote for the best one, you know, like, I, I hear where you're coming from.

30:47 I mean, teachers do that with grades teacher. Oh, I don't know if they name names, but they certainly list how many people got an A and a B and C, but they don't attach names. So yeah, that's not even a good example.

30:56 Yeah.

31:00 Hey, everyone.

31:01 Longtime PWTorch columnist Sean Radican here to let you know I've revamped and renewed the Radican Worldwide Podcast for 2026. a weekly VIP exclusive. Every week, I break down four or five of the biggest trending topics in pro wrestling. I also present my analysis, providing insight that helps you understand the story better or see it another way than maybe is the controversial take out there. Then I bring on a special guest for the second half of the podcast.

31:28 Sometimes it's a wrestler or someone else who works in the business. Other times it's a guest analyst who brings their specialized point of view on a particular key topic in the news. Recent guests have included Bronson Reed from WWE and PCO. One of my areas of specialty is the Japan wrestling scene, so I often cover a big topic from Japan with PW Torch's own Alan Farrell, Kelly Wells, and Chris Lansdell. I don't just cover the news. I don't just riff on the news or give a standard hot take. I'll bring my decades of studying this industry and talking one-on-one with dozens of wrestling promoters to each week's show so you understand not just what's happening, but the context of why. Get ahead of the news. Get

32:07 ahead of the pack with Ratican Worldwide only at PWTorch VIP.

32:14 All right.

32:15 Anyway.

32:16 Back to Sami Zayn. So I just wanted to talk about the opening segment really quick. First off, question to you, gentlemen. Has there ever been anyone who's entered and exited more cars on television than Roman Reigns? Because I can't struggle to think of someone. Like, I have seen so many scenes of him getting out of a car at this point that it's lost all meaning. When a car comes up on any episode of a show, I'm assuming Roman Reigns is in that car at this point.

32:48 And he has a nice variety of facial expressions to the person holding his belt to hand it to him.

32:55 Right.

32:56 You know, this time it was just like, it's like a rude guy asking for the waiter. His water's been empty. He's like, come on, bring me my water. He was like kind of a dick to the guy. Um, this week, but you know, maybe the guy was on his phone and not paying attention to Roman is right, but he was off camera. Oh, but yeah, not only does he get out of SUVs, but we, I always look for, how's he going to treat the guy handing him the title this week?

33:13 Oh yeah, no, I know. I know you do, but I, I don't even remember who that guy was this week. Cause I was already looking at the guy getting out of the.

33:20 SUV behind him.

33:22 Which was who had awesome sunglasses on, looked like a cool dude. Turned out it was a WWE undisputed champion, Sammy Zane. And, uh, I really did like how he came in and sort of, uh, big footed Roman's traditional arrival. Uh, it set the stage. Um, and, and then, then I didn't know if it was going to be acrimonious, but I loved the beat of that opening promo segment. Uh, it felt a bit like, uh, um, a match almost like it was, there was a familiarity at the beginning off Mike, then they builds to compliments on the mic, then eventual attention. Then finally, you know, the Dan Burst and Sammy, of course, who's known to spin out, you can see eventually spins out to some, to some strong words.

34:13 And there's 8 billion people in the world watching. gentlemen but only one person has the wwe championship and he can taste the electricity like lightning on his tongue so like he is he he is when he hits these beats on the on the promos like i believe them like i believe what he's like what he's telling me and i also thought you know he was doing yeoman's work in terms of defending the title because this is, you know, like Roman is whenever Roman does have a title, he belittles the other title. That is something that he does.

34:48 And I like to see somebody finally call him out on it. Anyway, all this to say, I was a big fan of that opening promo segment. I didn't like like Penta coming out was, was great. But I hate when they just, you know, he's coming out for a match and nobody tells you. And so you think he's coming out to be part of this segment or to to tell them that he's maybe even a cash in.

35:08 He has the briefcase. Both champions are there. But instead, it's just, you know, for another for another segment. But aside from that quibble, I thought it was really great. What did you guys think of the opener, Paul?

35:22 Oh, it was so much fun seeing these two in the ring together. how long have we waited for a reunion? And to see them coming at each other at different levels. Last time, Sammy was not the success that he is now, not in the same way, and they were enemies. And then seeing them both trying to kind of subtly manipulate one another. And as you said, the tension start between them was just wonderful.

35:53 I mean, it just fit their characters so well. Perfectly.

35:55 Roman's like, can I recruit this guy? And Sammy's thinking, how can I get Roman on my side? And Crofty, you're so right. When Sammy got, when he got really upset and he started spitting that one in a billion line, he had such great fire.

36:14 I mean, what passion. So you believed it.

36:18 And that, if anything, made Roman's final line, which was supposed.

36:23 To be the mic drop moment, fall a little bit flat.

36:27 I agree.

36:27 I don't even think you might not even have the title.

36:31 I understand his point, but compared to Sammy's fire, Roman's just, you know, it fell flat.

36:37 A little bit.

36:38 Yeah, Penta coming out saved him. I agree with you there.

36:42 It was flat.

36:44 I love Sammy, his demeanor. He was just like, I'm the champ. I wasn't sure last week. And he goes, what I have to say, I want to say to Roman's face. And I thought, well, if he's going to be cocky, he's going to be scared. And he's going to say, I want to say to his face, but in reality, kind of like I said, if he showed up in the main event tonight, he'd act like he's brave and then he'd back away. In this case, it came across like Sammy. I don't want to say he's delusional because he's holding the title. He's a really good wrestler.

37:08 He's accomplished all that. But he got in the ring, stood opposite of Roman and was like, we're peers now. I totally understand. I didn't used to understand, but now I do. Oh, the weight of the world is on our shoulders.

37:22 The burden.

37:24 What's that, Crofton?

37:25 The burden. Yes, the burden. Oh, man.

37:28 You know, I get it now. You know, I didn't get it before. It's almost like, you know, an apology. And when he called him in for the hug, and then Roman hugged him, and oh, he was just like so happy that he... he had convinced himself not only that he's at Roman's level, but that Roman would see him on his level. So when Roman hugged him, the character we've all grown to love and appreciate that Sammy play that Sammy Zane is on air felt this like flood of validation and relief that, yeah, I'm not in the bloodline, but I'm equal to the tribal chief. And in fact, as leaked out five minutes later, I'm a little better than him because I have a more important title.

38:09 And of course it's like, you know, whatever title I hold is the title. Um, So, yeah, Sammy, I mean, there's a lot of things you can say good about Sammy anytime he has this much mic time. But. Yeah, I get it now. I didn't get it before. Anyway, going back.

38:25 Him being up like it's sort of if Roman is this barometer for folks, you know, that L.A. Knight and Penta have had to be held up, like, will they wither or will they will they stand tall? I found that this was, you know, ever since Sammy has had the belt and Crown Jewel is on the calendar, I normally do not care about Crown Jewel and the champion versus champion conceit. But soon as it was these two, I suddenly was like, oh, I need to see this.

38:54 When Roman was coming out for this segment, Sammy's already waiting in the ring. And his entrance is really long, by the way. I hit the jump button 10 seconds at a time. I'm like, is he still going? But I was just on tender hooks waiting for like what was going to happen. And my mind was, you know, thinking it could go the way that you mentioned, Wade, the chicken shit sort of route. It could go the suck up route. It could go, you know, passive aggressive or whatever. And just like what they did here and how they commiserated and then were friendly and then as Paul accurately points out both kind of trying to use each other Roman maybe more blatantly than than Sammy I find it interesting like I know I know you have

39:43 articulated this really well in the past weight about why people boo Sammy. And I get that he's a heel, like, even though I love him so much, but like in San Diego, when he's like, when he's cutting this promo about like, there's 8 billion people in the world and I'm WWE champion. And this guy is like this arrogant prick showing him no respect, which he's calling him on.

40:03 He's like the smaller figure, all of this. I'm like, why are we, why are we cheering Roman and booing Sammy? Like what is, I don't understand. Like if anything, he wasn't enough of a heel here. Like I loved what he did, but, but I don't understand how he garnered any heat from this promo.

40:24 Yeah.

40:24 I mean, it's, it's, it's a good point. I mean, Roman always seems like the guy who's, you know, snapping his fingers at the waiter and restaurants, you know, like his character, I don't mean the real person, but he comes across as a guy who's going to be a jerk to the help. to the front desk people and expect everything to be perfect. And he's going to be the one who calls the front desk and goes, oh, God, it's room 946 again. Oh, I shouldn't have said 946.

40:48 That's a total Freudian. What number is going to roll off my tongue right now?

40:53 629.

40:53 It's room 802 right now. Oh, God, it's him again. You know, like, that's how he comes across. And Sammy's just like, you know, he's flawed and, you know, insecure and, you know, a little much would be the way to put it with Sammy. But we love him and Crofton loves him. I agree with you, but Roman's a big star.

41:10 Wrestling fans gravitate towards and cheer big stars who are cool. But of course, with Roman, it's contextual. It's not... I mean, obviously, Mexico City, they cheered for Penta.

41:19 That's fine.

41:20 They knew that. But LA Knight got the vast majority of cheers in their one-on-one match. Roman got pops, but the fans were... You could say, well, they're not cheering against Roman. They're cheering to see a title change. I think they were cheering for LA Knight more than they were against Roman. They were just wrapped up in the moment.

41:36 But Roman... is a star, but the fans don't universally cheer for him. So it is a good point. Crofton brings up Paul. Why, if fans are willing to turn on him against Penta, they're willing to root for LA night over him. He comes across as a narcissistic prick, uh, like 85% of his traits are that is just being a big star and a leader of the brand enough.

41:58 Uh, uh, apparently, um, I, I, I, I also, I can't stand Roman reigns. I, I, um, I keep like praying for him to fully turn heel and it keeps not happening. I think that's the role he's destined to play. I hope, I certainly hope by WrestleMania. But I think part of it is that you realize this is, Sammy is making this happen, right?

42:22 Sammy is, you know.

42:24 He is subtly, you know, he's subtly digging his nails down the chalkboard. He's being grating and being annoying on purpose. And he's a master of it. And the other thing is, as Wade said, I mean, Roman is cool. People like cool people.

42:39 And so is LA Knight, and so is Penta, and Sammy is a lot of things, but I think it's tough to argue that he's cool.

42:47 Crofton, how dare you?

42:48 I know.

42:49 You're a ride or die, Sammy.

42:50 That took a lot out of me.

42:53 Sammy's crotch. Sammy, sorry. I know you watch. I know you watch. Crofton even says you're not cool.

42:59 I'm going to have to send back my Justice for Sammy shirt. the thing I like in terms of the crown jewel match if they go to Saudi Arabia like crazy people I don't like because the finish to me is the 9-4-6 screwing Roman and Sammy winning that match and crowing about it like Jericho when he beat the Rock and Stone Cold the same night for like the next 10 years right like I beat the OTC so so, but like have the out of the nine, four, six, then it leads into war games and all of this.

43:35 I think that's ideal. However, I have no, like you guys praising that the no music, I think makes a ton of sense. You want this group to be separate from regular wrestlers. How did they fly to Saudi Arabia to interrupt, you know, a match or to get involved in a match? I think, I think, It struggles credulity maybe more than I would want, but that's the ending that I would want. As much as I don't like inconclusive finishes or whatever or messy finishes, if Roman loses and Sammy wins, I forgive it all.

44:11 Yes.

44:12 Yeah.

44:13 I gotta say, that is the exact same ending that I wanted for the LA Knight Roman match because.

44:19 I'm a ride or die LA Knight fan. So I feel you.

44:25 Sometimes a screwjob finish feels like the right one. This is especially an interesting year because both of the crown jewel champion versus champion matches features a clear underdog against a much more established champion. Although they're they're kind of swapped with their baby face heel alignment. So it's not what we're used to seeing. I imagine we'll probably get one sort of surprise and one expected.

44:53 So which one it is, I think you put a good case forward for Sami winning. I have a hard time imagining.

45:01 They're going to give up a Roman loss, you know, with heading towards the WrestleMania season and the feud with Obafemi.

45:10 Any chance, Penta? cashes in and beats Sami before then. Since they put that out there, Penta crossed paths with Roman. Did anything about the show tonight make you lean more for or against that, Paul?

45:23 You know, they had that fantastic match, but we did just see it. And I think, you know, with Penta, for him to cash in on a wounded champion really is unbecoming and beneath him. So I'm hoping he calls his shot beforehand. I think calling his shot with with Roman. It, yeah, it doesn't quite seem, it doesn't quite seem right. Um, they didn't even really share much of a look, um, uh, as they passed each other.

45:50 So, so I, I, I would, um, I would bet against it. I, I think Penta is going to hold onto the case for quite some time, if only to sell cases. Um, but, uh, but, but, but I, I re I really do think that like they're, they're in it for the long haul with him. Uh, I expect that it will be maybe even after or at WrestleMania that that will pay off. So when he came out tonight with the case, while the two champions were in the ring, I had zero suspense that he was going to be cashing in. So I don't know if that's a problem or whatever, but it's how I'm feeling with him right now. I will say that I thought the San Diego crowd was really hot and cold all night. Um, and there were some matches that were stone cold. And

46:42 I thought that the Penta match with Braun breaker, which was right after that segment felt cold to me. Like there, it was, you know, they, they were both, they were both good, but like compared to the, the audience and the, for hometown hero Ray Mysterio later, or even in the opening segment, um, it felt a lot, a lot cooler. Um, and, and a breaker in particular, I think needs, um, need something.

47:08 And I know that they're transitioning into this feud with Javon Evans, but I, I just, I just feel like, I don't know if it's that he ditches the name Braun breaker and goes by like Braun Steiner and, and, and has a new, new character. It feels like he's in his big dog era. Like he even barks like that, but like, I would, I would give him a new gimmick.

47:28 I would give him a new gimmick because I feel like he has all the potential in the world. They keep talking about it, but I, And he showed out in that Money in the Bank match. But I just, when he's on my screen, I find my, like, he's not holding my interest right now. I can't really put a pin on why that is, but I think that he needs something. And I think maybe a repackaging might be it. But I found that whole match with Penta was a bit cold. And Braun, again, lost due to, you know, outside interference, again, bumping him down.

48:07 Just a reminder, you can reach us at wadekellerpostshow at gmail.com if you're interested in contributing to the flagship or wadekellerpostshow at gmail.com if you're interested in submitting a question or a topic or even a rant on the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Shows.

48:22 How did you guys feel about that one?

48:24 Crofton, do you think that what Braun Breaker needs is maybe a name change and he could become the ringmaster?

48:29 Because....

48:32 I mean, he's just wearing these black singlet. He didn't get his entrance music tonight. He didn't get a ring entrance. It's usually safe for.

48:38 It's true.

48:39 Yeah.

48:40 He just went to the ring. His music's fading. Anyone who that happens to is usually on their way to losing. They're not a priority with management. I don't know what's up with that. I don't think they've given up on Brunbreaker, but I'm not ruling out that he didn't do something wrong and they're like, well, we're going to bench him for a while and we'll utilize him, but we'll utilize him.

49:01 I'm not reporting that's a case or leaning towards that being the case what I'm saying is I can't rule out and how they're treating him is consistent with when that has happened when someone's a little bit in the doghouse or people lost faith in him I think it's I think he's in a holding pattern because they need to get through the Opa Femi Paul Heyman arc and they just want him to you know be on TV and useful then but there's nothing about him right now where you go that's how he should be utilized going forward take that what they're doing with him now amplify it it's working um and it's weird you know it's just it's weird i mean he's got these plain black singlet he's just doing kind of a signature stuff, but

49:39 he doesn't feel like the star of the match that he's in, in a way that you'd want someone who was just fighting to be the future of WWE to be. So yeah, I don't want to make too much out of it, but it's an observation.

49:50 Yeah.

49:51 A hundred percent worth making.

49:52 He doesn't feel like he's in a good space right now. And if, if I was writing a column about rising and declining stars, like, I mean, I know which way he would be going, but yeah.

50:04 Yeah.

50:05 You want to say something, Paul?

50:07 Yeah, I mean, he's not protected like he was.

50:10 There's just a feeling there that he's slipping further.

50:14 It seemed like Money in the Bank was his to win. He didn't win it, even though they did feature him. So, yeah, it is concerning for him. It's like creative doesn't have much for.

50:25 Him right now.

50:26 By the way, speaking of name changes, The Ringbreaker suggests 7-Eleven.

50:33 It's funny that his real, I was like, what is his real name? I knew his last name was Steiner. It is Bronson. So like his real name, but then Bronson Reed is right. So it is, it's just unfortunate that, that, that is, you know, they're the two bronze at like, it's.

50:48 Yeah.

50:49 Unfortunate coincidence.

50:50 And it's not Steiner, right? It's something Steiner, right?

50:53 It's a. Right.

50:54 Steiner was always their, their, their, their WW.

50:58 His, his nickname in college football is breakers or something.

51:01 Yeah.

51:02 It's something I would do with, that was his nickname. So he just took his real first name and his nickname on football. So it's not like it, it's like, you know, Mia Yim became Meechan because she wanted to be Meechan. Cause that's what she, that was her like nickname or a family name or something. And she wanted something that was closer to her. It wasn't like changing to take away something from an END scene or NXT.

51:20 It was actually meant to honor her wishes with Braun. I mean, he has said he's fine with it or is in favor of it, but you know, you can't be naive enough to take that at face value a hundred percent of the time. But you can imagine somebody going, I don't want to be a Steiner. I just want to be my own guy. And let's use my nickname in college, my real first name. And we can go with it. I mean, I don't know. I've never been outraged by that. And I don't think it's a bad name.

51:44 I think Roman Reigns seemed like a ridiculous name when we first heard it. Now he's a top star in the industry. It's true. You know, I mean, I just like Dolph Ziggler. That never, no, we never, we never got over that one.

51:57 I have a question for you guys about the, about the future of this industry. It feels like, I don't know, over the past year, two years, everybody is the next generation, the future of this industry. They talk about it all the time. The announcers are talking about it. You know, like the angles are about it, the backstage segments, he's.

52:19 Young, he's fresh, he's this or that.

52:22 I feel it's a little much. I don't remember. And maybe when I was younger, like these were guys from the indie scene that were established already. They didn't need to do that. Or maybe I'm misremembering and I don't remember them doing it that much. But it seems like they're doing it all the time, talking about how somebody is fresh or young or the future. You're looking at the future right now. And they were doing it again during Braun Breaker's match tonight. And it feels like all his matches, they do that. And I feel like there's diminished returns with that.

52:58 Paul.

52:58 Yeah, agreed.

52:59 You're right.

53:00 They would never refer to someone as sort of future world champion or I don't think you would hear that back in, certainly not the 80s when I was a fan.

53:11 And I agree, they've leaned too far into it.

53:14 They've said it too much and it does kind of lose its effectiveness over time.

53:20 Is the Vision bringing down Braun Breaker in addition to how he's being no entrance music, not being protected and framed as the top, top guy? SadlerVision3 says, I think the Vision brings him down. The group should separate. I think Austin Theory and Maxine Debris would mean more if they were more in the Ethan Page realm of just a heel act that's agitating a popular upper mid-card babyface and trading wins and losses. Having them just kind of run interference for Bron Breaker ultimately ineffectively and not really seeming like they're the type who Bronson Reed would want to hang out with. There's not a chemistry there on camera with them that's been established. and Logan Paul's Logan Paul's.

54:03 So I don't know. I mean, it is weird right now.

54:06 And Bronson Reed, who wasn't there tonight.

54:08 For some reason.

54:09 Yeah, I think there's too many factions on Raw, and I don't know how the Judgment Day can claim that the Judgment Day runs Raw when they're like the fourth faction down after you've got the Vision, and now you have the big heavies with the Bloodline and the 946s. It feels like too much, but it really does feel to me like the vision is the one. Judgment Day has seniority, so they can lean on that. And the other two are notable, but it feels like to me the vision is, you know, unless they have some sort of creative long-term plan for it, it has run its course.

54:49 Derek Mitchell in the chat, by the way, says, I recall Kurt Haney, Barry Wynnum, Sting, and Lex Luger often being mentioned as great young stars who could be the future of wrestling and the future world champion.

54:58 So I do think that one weakness to the vision is you don't really get a sense.

55:03 About how they interact with each other. They don't have great chemistry.

55:06 I like all the idea of them together, but is Braun Breaker kind of the big brother to Austin Theory?

55:12 I don't know.

55:13 How does Logan fit in? Who's really in charge? What are their roles? You never really get that sense. They never really work that out. So that's been a big weakness of the group.

55:24 With the Death Riders, we see... marina shafir's role with moxley we see um wheeler yuda being you know just blindly supportive and danny garcia being like just a pit bull who's like ah i'm gonna i'm i'm totally into defending my my teammates claudio is the the veteran who stands kind of above it all and he'll he'll be there but he just sort of like lets all the stuff go on underneath them and like you you kind of get a sense of the dynamic of how they stand with each other in one pocket was alive and around.

55:55 You saw him. He just arms crossed. He's kind of solo in the bloodline type role. Taking it all in, but wound up tight. And yeah, I mean, but here's the thing. They've been injured. Paul Heyman decided he was going to do the Femi thing. It's not a priority, obviously, for them to establish a dynamic within the vision. I'm not ruling out they might not still do that. But yeah, I mean, even Maxine is just like, does she belong on the screen with Bronson Reed, like, or Bron Breaker.

56:25 I don't, it's sort of, they kind of look at her like, oh, you know, you're the Yoko Ono of the, you know, you're coming in and breaking up the Beatles with your attention, but not that theory is, you know, John Lennon, but you know what I mean? Like, it's just like, what are you doing here? Oh, it's the girlfriend.

56:40 So there, there, my, actually my point that I'm leaning to is there's things they can do to create tension or convince us that actually Bronson Reed really, really likes, but in a platonic way, Maxine debris. He finds her funny or something like it'd be fun to have that on air dynamic. And they're just they haven't been healthy enough to be on camera together. And Heyman's doing his.

57:01 Own thing now.

57:01 And there's this mystery storyline with Breaker that we still can't quite figure out.

57:04 So, yeah, I think they need a clubhouse.

57:07 I think that's the secret to the Judgment Day's incredible longevity has been the kind of shifting relationships between group members. Some have called it the weekly Judgment Day, you know, dissension segment, but I've enjoyed it. I think it's kept them fresh for a long time, and I think that the Vision could certainly use something like that.

57:28 Yeah, they have their defining presentation for their act.

57:31 I do think, though, like, and maybe I'm a stickler for this sort of thing, but the title of the faction is Vision. It's somebody's vision, and it was originally... Seth Rollins and Paul Heyman's kind of vision and it was like in the stakes of the future of this industry and Roman reigns in the bloodline and we've got to have a vision and.

57:53 This is coming out of Seth and Roman yeah and now it's.

57:57 A bunch of folks who were brought together under the auspices of this but then like whose vision is it anymore and I know that Judgment Day was essentially Edge's thing but like judgment day means really nothing and i guess it's like a biker group type type thing but like for the vision it feels like it they've lost the vision of the group and so so then maybe it's time to to you know uh retool go in separate ways and to your original question i think wait about is breaker like what is causing is it breaker or is it the whole vision that's pulling him down with them i think it's a combination but i don't think they figured out braun breaker um as a character as a person like he has all the skills they've

58:43 mentioned it many times i truly do believe that um but i i don't think they figured him out and therefore he's part of this faction that was gonna maybe help him get there but now that faction is in disarray so that it's kind of like the blind leading the blind type situation so you might want to reconfigure.

59:01 That's sort of where I'm at on the vision. And honestly, with all the factions on Raw and the Rise of the 946 i feel like they really need to take away a faction at this point.

59:10 And and like i said i i think logan paul probably seems like more of a star when he's not just a lackey and a crew um he's just kind of jumping up and down being the the you know comedy relief or aggravating annoying guy um And like I said, I do. I think Austin Theory and Maxine Dupree have chemistry together and Theory can take bumps for baby faces really well. He's a guy you want to see get punched.

59:33 He and Maxine have that go away public displays of affection going on. There's something there.

59:41 Use that.

59:41 And then if it wears out its welcome, you can go a different direction. Or if it catches on, you can elevate Theory and Maxine as an act above where Ethan page currently is if it catches fire oh I was gonna throw up this couple comments on the vision Derek Mitchell says I never liked the vision from the inception even with Seth Rollins and Paul Heyman felt like the vision is NWO black and white or black and silver they never felt threatening or like a main event faction they never got a chance to just be what they're gonna be but man the early chemistry with Seth and Heyman was nil I mean that felt like an alliance of booking necessity slash convenience and not Paul and Seth going, Hey, we've been wanting to work together for

1:00:29 a long time. Now's our chance. It came across as like, we've never felt like we'd be good working together, but we sort of feel like maybe we have to tell that story now. What should we do? And, and, but they just kind of, it's like they each showed up for promos, having not compared notes. Like the only thing that they heard is Paul, you get the first 30 seconds and then Seth, you get two minutes and Paul, you get one minute. That's all. That seemed like all the collaboration that there was. So no chemistry from, the beginning uh jtg wtr says division is one of the worst groups in wb most of its members have zero chemistry with each other agree and the tag team titles are practically useless in wwe at this.

1:01:06 Point they have them yeah i've forgotten yep.

1:01:09 Uh dcw 29 30 says the vision doesn't work for me as a collective because they don't all seem like they're on the same page also it's nice to have varying personality types but austin theory and logan paul do not fit um and then uh miss sports guy or am i am i michigan sports guy yeah am i sports guy says i think it should have just been braun and bronson adding logan started the floodgates and then a bunch of injuries occurred yeah i mean the injuries we'll never know i mean i should when you say never know maybe paul hayman will talk about it someday in a podcast or a book or something oh that's what we're gonna do but all these injuries so then it's just the time the window closed for us to.

1:01:45 Do it But Bron and Ronson did have some chemistry together when it was just those two.

1:01:51 So I think that's a good point.

1:01:53 Yep. JC Scooby says, Vision was bad from the beginning and still is and needs to dissolve. JTG says, Logan Paul stands out much more as a singles wrestler than he does as part of a faction. I agree. The Vision does nothing for him and he'd be better off on his own. I agree with that. DCW says, yeah, the Vision feels like the most inconsequential faction. Um, and Michigan sports guy says, yeah, it's very easy to forget.

1:02:19 Braun and theory are still the day champs.

1:02:20 Yeah. Yeah.

1:02:22 Very, um, easy. And let's see another comment. Eric Moy says, Braun should have been the clear leader of the vision once they kicked out Seth.

1:02:32 And, uh, everyone that could have helped if they're all tiptoeing around him a little bit, cause he's so psycho and crazy.

1:02:39 That would have helped. Yeah.

1:02:40 He's lost that psycho crazy edge. Eric Moy says, everyone in the division should be playing off of Braun Breaker. And MI Sports Guy says, yeah, MI is for Michigan.

1:02:51 Yep, understood.

1:02:53 Good to know, though. The division was a vehicle to get Braun over, and it failed, says Mark Paschetti. All right. Yeah, cool.

1:03:04 Hey, Steph, do you ever watch WWE and think it used to be better?

1:03:07 I don't know, Josh.

1:03:08 Sometimes I think it used to be a whole lot worse.

1:03:11 I mean, whether it's WrestleMania main event old dudes at the top, too many titles, or women's wrestling, we're here to answer the big question, is it worse or better now?

1:03:21 Join me, Joshua White, and me, Stephanie Chase, for Worse.

1:03:26 Or Better, part of the PWTorch daily cast lineup dropping on Monday nights.

1:03:30 Search PWTorch in your podcast app, such as Apple Podcasts or Spotify, to subscribe for free or get a commercial free version with the PWTorch VIP membership. Check out pwtorch.com slash govip for details on going VIP.

1:03:45 Worse or better, finally, something for wrestling fans to do on Monday nights.

1:03:52 Crofton.

1:03:53 Yeah, the last big thing I wanted to talk about was the announcing, but before I do, just really a quick hit on Dominant Mysterio. Just because I will talk about the Funko Pop match in the SEC and the announcing around it and such. But when Don was there, like we've been talking in the PW Torch Forum, which I highly recommend everybody join.

1:04:21 Thanks for contributing, Crofton.

1:04:23 Oh, I love it.

1:04:24 It's great.

1:04:24 I had a cold last week. I had no extra energy and I didn't post for days. And I was like, ah, this is not, I want to get in there. And so I'm back today, kind of caught up. But I'm glad you were there posting a lot.

1:04:37 Yeah, no, it's great. It's everything you said. A great community of folks talking about stuff. But one of the discussion threads has been, has this been a lost year for Gunther? And I would, you know, like I think potentially it has. There's an argument to be made there. But I remember you in particular, Wade, talking about Dom, especially around the time that it was him against John Cena on his retirement tour. being like, this is, you know, there is, is there a world where Dom is kind of like, you know, a top, a top guy, maybe top face even. And I saw it at the time.

1:05:17 And I just, he seems so far from that now. And now he's like accompanying JD McDonough in a Funko pop match. And it just feels like, I don't know how you get him back on track. It feels like he's been treading water. But I sort of feel like it has been almost more so than Gunther. It's been a lost year for Dom.

1:05:42 I agree.

1:05:43 So, Paul, is this water fighting its level validation of those who think he isn't a top star? Or is this a self-fulfilling prophecy from people who underestimate him and think he could have been more? Is it a travesty or destiny?

1:05:56 I think it's, it's a combination of both.

1:05:59 I don't, I'm one of those who has argued that I don't see top star in him, but I.

1:06:04 Think Dom deserves better than this.

1:06:07 I mean, then, you know, jobbing to the, and having to sell for the, some guy, some guy in a Funko pop outfit, you know, banging him with his head.

1:06:15 It's really, you know, pathetic.

1:06:17 I just, I hate this whole segment, but yeah, that this just like with Dan Housen, I mean, involving in that really has, uh, has undercut JD McDonough and, um, uh, and, uh, Mysterio as well.

1:06:35 Yeah.

1:06:35 I hope they're not, haven't defined Dom down beyond repair, like permanently lowered whatever his ceiling would have been. Um, yeah, I mean, it's, I don't know if it's, if it's a case of, we just don't have room. We're still high on him. He's still young. We'll get there, but, I mean, this could be them revealing, hey, you know, there's still some limitations with him, we believe. And he's going to be a really fun utility guy who's going to be a veteran for many years, but he's not a main event guy. And I could totally see Paul Levesque just going, come on. I mean, Dom looks tall because he's standing next to JD and Liv, you know, but, you know, Paul Levesque, you know, standing around. I mean,

1:07:18 I think he's like, you know, Paul's probably like 6'1 now, but he used to be 6'4. It's just the way he's always grown and aged. He just feels like he's Whatever. But he's still taller than Dom by a wide margin. And Vince McMahon always had that bias. It's just, you know, if you're a small promoter, you're looking equal or up.

1:07:36 And everyone who's taller than you can be a main eventer. But when you're like Vince McMahon at his peak, 6'3, 6'4, it's like if you're not as tall as me, you can't be a main eventer. It was just the height of the promoter rule. It doesn't have to be that way. But with Levesque, I think he does look at Dom and be like, you're not Eddie Guerrero. And you're small and we love you because you're, you know, you're cool and we like you and you're Ray's son. But, you know, come on, look at you. You're not a, you don't belong in the main events. I could just, I could see Levesque kind of in a self-fulfilling prophecy, not Crofton giving him a chance to be all that he could have been because it would go against a lot of

1:08:14 Levesque's rules about hitting the gym and, you know, being a better worker and whatever.

1:08:20 When Vince had to look down at you, he gave you a name called Shorty G. Dominic, I agree with what you're saying, Wade, but they've killed... The thing about Dominic was that he elicited these passionate reactions. People would boo him like crazy, but then there was a point, I think when we were talking about this, there was a point where people were chanting his name. There was a Dirty Dom chant that would follow him during matches and stuff. He was over... Now he doesn't ever even come out to his own music. Like he comes out to JD's music or he comes out to Liv's music or he comes out to the Judgment Day. theme but like yeah I can't remember the last time he came out to his own music or had a match at

1:09:05 a notable pay-per-view or anything like that so other than you know the work that he'd been doing in AAA and now that's kind of I don't know if that's entirely over, but he's no longer the champ there. So that's a big transition away from the one point where he was on top of the mountain. But yeah, anyway, I just noticed that because we've been talking about Gunther and I was like, well, I'd much rather be Gunther than Dom. But I wanted to talk about the announcing.

1:09:36 I noticed it today. Yes, obviously the Funko Pop match was the point where I was like, oh my God, what is going on here? And, you know, Barrett's calling Joe Tess out on bullying. And Joe Tess is like just getting really excited that that J.D. McDonough's big head isn't getting hit or it's doing insane damage. But overall, like it made me tune in really closely to the announcing.

1:10:00 And Joe Tess tonight, lots of wows and oh, man, wow.

1:10:06 Oh, man.

1:10:06 And with no again, I think about like if I was listening to this without visual experience, would he give me, would he be telling me any sort of story? And it felt, it felt like he wouldn't be. And Barrett was like, who I have been a big fan of was, was also bad tonight. Like Joe Henry turns around and Barrett just a signature pose. And I'm like, what does that, what does that mean? He doesn't, he doesn't say anything else.

1:10:34 And then in the triple thread at one point, Tess says, Ray saves it triple threat. And I'm like, is he, Is he saying that, like, that's why he can break up the pin? But he said it all in, like, one sentence with no gasp. And he had the same excitement for the triple threat, which was a lot, that he had for the Funko Pop, which was too much, obviously. So, like, and Barrett had repeated eye references. He's got that look in his eyes. He has a menacing look in his eye.

1:11:05 He said that, like, twice, I think three times he had something like that. And the commentary for women, and this is not just tonight, but like for the Chelsea match, there's a lot of here goes Chelsea. Look at Chelsea go.

1:11:19 And, and I just, I just yellow dog, red dog, brown dog.

1:11:25 Yeah.

1:11:25 It's a dog party.

1:11:27 I just can't imagine it being with the men, the men, like look at John Cena go, you know, like, it's, it feels really gendered in a, in a bad way. And so like, anyway, all of that together by the end of the night, I was like, these guys are, are, are, are killing me. And so, so I'm not sure if I was listening more closely. If I was though, it was due to how bad that Funko pop announcing was.

1:11:53 But anyway, I just felt that Joe and Wade were, were bad tonight. And then on SmackDown, it was my first time hearing Vic Joseph because I don't watch NXT. And I felt that he was, while he was obviously a rookie, there was something fresh and clear about the way that he was presenting it that I didn't get tonight.

1:12:13 He's just happy not to be calling a show with Booker T.

1:12:18 Is Booker T not amazing? Everybody talks about him.

1:12:21 Like....

1:12:22 I think, I think what, no, um, no, unbearable, unbearable, unbearable in that role. The, uh, the way Joe announces, if he has like key lines written down for him for key moments in the match, like you could imagine in parentheses, it would say like, um, with enthusiasm and emphasis, like it'd be in parentheses, tell him how to, what his inflection should be. But what Joe would do is go brawn breaker with a spear with enthusiasm and emphasis.

1:12:48 Yeah.

1:12:51 You don't read that part, Joe.

1:12:53 Right. So when he gets excited about Funko Pop mascot guy coming out or Joe Henry, and it says with enthusiasm and gusto, he comes across like he doesn't have enough of a sense of the product of what his tone should be. And so it's just, it's either, I call it at a three for a solemn, you know, regular thing, a five or a six for normal. And then there's the third setting, which is 10, which is WrestleMania main event kick out or Funko Pop guy coming out.

1:13:27 Like he doesn't have nuance. He doesn't have an awareness of or if it's supposed to be tongue in cheek. I was I was I was searching. Is he in on this or does he is he really that excited by it? And I in the end, I didn't know if he was trying to come across as like this is genuinely something everyone should be as delighted with as I am. Or if it was, ah, we're having fun with it by exaggerating. You know, it's a bit. And I couldn't tell with him.

1:13:55 Yeah, he didn't seem like he was.

1:13:57 He seemed like this was the greatest thing he'd ever seen in his life.

1:14:00 And when the.

1:14:01 Funko Pop figure got thrown on the floor, he acted like he was more upset than when Jacob Patu got hit by a car.

1:14:09 Totally, yes.

1:14:09 100%.

1:14:10 It was really insufferable. I just... I hated this whole match. I do have to say that to me.

1:14:19 Comparing Wade Barrett to Joe Tess is like comparing ice cream to horse manure. I mean, I would not put them anywhere near each other. I think Wade Barrett has.

1:14:27 Well, they do sit next to each other.

1:14:28 That's a good point. That's a good point. I suppose, metaphorically, I wouldn't put them near each other. Physically, I suppose there's no choice. But this whole match was just brutal. And Joe just delighting in the head... Jokes, which to me, I think the audience wouldn't even have noticed that JD had a big head if they don't constantly croon on it.

1:14:55 It seems to me, you know, Wade said workplace bully, and I just wonder how much this is creative ribbing McDonough. I mean, it's just, I don't think the audience is that into it. It does not do anything for him.

1:15:09 Wade was a truth teller saying, you know, he's a serious competitor who's been made into a punchline. I just, I don't get this. I think, you know, even though he won, he really lost this match.

1:15:20 It's like Crofton earlier saying, why isn't Sammy getting cheered? You're like, why isn't JD getting cheered, Paul? He's getting picked on.

1:15:28 It feels like Vince McMahon era stuff.

1:15:32 It feels like Vince McMahon is in Joe Tessa's headset.

1:15:35 Yeah.

1:15:36 Oh, Joe, this is the greatest thing. Say it louder. I'll start a coughing fit if I try to talk like Vince.

1:15:41 He called Joe one of the greatest artists of our generation.

1:15:44 And he seemed to say it with a totally straight, like there was no hint of irony there.

1:15:50 Yeah. Anyway, I felt that that carried through. And the thing is when there's a segment like that, it does so much damage to the rest of the show because when there's a gang war happening in the main event, and you're using the same tone that you use for the Funko pop, then, then I can't take it seriously.

1:16:15 And even like the direct cut after the Funko pop match was Lyra Valkyria in the hall. And she was acting fairly cartoonish to begin with, but it really like, I, I went from seeing a Funko pop get its head smashed into this, this girl acting like crazy with, you know, makeup in the hall. And it just immediately, contextualize that as lesser than for me, like comedic, a clown show.

1:16:45 And so, so I just feel that when, when they have a bad segment like this and, and I'm not, I'm not saying it's Joe Hendry's fault, although he's been part of a couple of these now when they have a bad segment like this, this, it does so much damage to, to other parts of the show. And I just notice it later on, like, like it undermines a commentary.

1:17:06 It frames things differently. And so I would just, I would urge them to think about it twice before doing these types of segments, but.

1:17:16 Here, here, here, Crofton, that in no way resembled an athletic competition of any sort.

1:17:21 I think you're totally right.

1:17:24 Come on.

1:17:24 Come on. He smiles in the chat. So tonight is probably Joe Tess's worst night on commentary, especially during the Joe Hendry match. He was worse than 2011. Michael Cole. Well, Gilbert Arbala says Joe Tess trying to sell Joe Hendry is Michael Jackson is hilarious.

1:17:40 I mean, I'm a longtime coal miner and I will say that was not a good period for Michael. So I will, I will let you guys go and let, get, get, Daryl, thanks so much for your time. When you eventually do an Agents of the Torch micro video series, I would like to be considered for one of them.

1:18:01 You'll be considered.

1:18:02 Keep me in mind.

1:18:03 No promises. You'll be considered.

1:18:06 See you later, guys.

1:18:06 Thanks, Robson.

1:18:07 Appreciate it. You know that last segment you're just listening to and the next one that you're waiting to listen to? Those can be one second apart with a VIP membership. You can unlock our commercial-free versions of our shows. PWTorch.com slash GoVIP tells you how to do it. That's PWTorch.com slash GoVIP. Options exist within the Apple Podcast app using your Apple account, through Patreon, which, by the way, you can sync up with Spotify, or just about any iOS or Android app with a full VIP membership. You can customize the feed for individual shows and clusters of shows and themes. Go to pwtorch.com slash govip for full details on all the options to listen commercial free and with upper tier options, unlock our VIP. exclusive podcasts that run

1:18:51 throughout the week every week. A couple other comments here in the chat. 7-Eleven says, I wonder how much self-esteem McDonough has left. Derek Mitchell says, Joe Henry has been part of some of the worst segments on Raw this year.

1:19:06 Yes.

1:19:08 We're Kavansi says, were parts of the show solely produced to pop the boys in the back? DCW says, WWE's always had a problem with overdoing things that they think is funny, like Titus O'Neil falling under the ring. 7-Eleven says, what I don't understand is why they're advertising JD Funko Pop. Can you even buy one? I don't think you can buy it. I'm not sure. I have not researched that, but I mean, Joe Tessitore would be first in line to get them.

1:19:34 Oh, please.

1:19:35 But it doesn't. Cavante says, I wonder who was in Tessa's headset tonight. He was awful tonight. JTG says, Elias was ten times better than Joe Henry. Henry lacks the physique and look you would expect from a WWE wrestler. Elias had a much better overall presentation. Yeah. Okay, and then Sadler says, yeah, the commentary for this match was prime PG-era goofiness that made you embarrassed to be a wrestling fan. Sure enough, All right. Let's bring Darrell into the conversation here. Darrell, welcome. Good to see you.

1:20:13 How y'all doing tonight? Good.

1:20:15 What's up?

1:20:16 Not much, nothing much.

1:20:17 Hey, tonight was really needed for Joe Hendry in this bad segment and with Joe Testatore.

1:20:24 I don't see how you could have announced anything good during that segment.

1:20:28 And this was needed so they can end the feud because this feud needs to be over with so they can move on and go to something else.

1:20:37 Good.

1:20:37 Let's do it.

1:20:41 Now, I want to talk about the main event match, the main event wrestling match, the Triple Threat. Another good match put on by Chad Gable. I like the Triple Threat match as a whole. I see they're building up two contenders for that.

1:20:57 I see Title.

1:20:58 I don't think Dragon Lee is going to win it, but I think they're building him up for the person who's going to win it from Chad Gable, which is going to be, in my opinion, Ethan Page. And constantly, week by week, they have been showing us Ethan Page and letting him show his personality. Tonight, we got to see his viciousness and stuff. And he's just a definition of a heel. He's a heel that you can trust.

1:21:25 He's a heel that you can put up against other people and use him right now. should take the title off of Chad Gable, and he could be the right building block that you would need to strengthen that middle of the card. He's the heel that you can have new babyfaces or hot babyfaces go up against and see if they prove they're metal and stuff like that. I'm kind of seeing somebody like Javon, they're trying to put him a little bit over that level right now, him and Penta. That's why I think they're trying to build a feud with Braun. But somebody like Dragon Lee, who they've been investing in and something like that, this is the perfect person for him to continue to build himself up to for when he'll eventually get the title. And

1:22:13 that's against somebody like Ethan Page. And I like everything that he did tonight.

1:22:17 Paul?

1:22:19 Yeah, I think that Chad Gable's matches have been fantastic. This was another excellent one. Last week's match with Rey Fenix was just awesome. But seeing Gable against fellow face luchadors is getting a little old. He still hasn't had a proper heel face feud, dying for one. And so I'm looking forward to him having a proper feud with Ethan Page. As your suggestion about Ethan taking the belt off him, I'd be in favor of that. I think Ethan could do great things. I do think it's a shame, though, that...

1:22:55 that Gable hasn't really had any real feuds, just these, you know, banger matches with other faces where there isn't all that much sort of anticipation about who's going to win because his challengers haven't had that much momentum.

1:23:13 So regardless, fantastic match.

1:23:16 When they did formal ring introductions for the match and they announced, Chad Gable! And it was just dead. just dead, and Gable just hung his head like, oh, I just felt he was so crestfallen and sad that he wasn't over. I mean, at the end, there was some cheering, and they did an angle to try to get him cheered and stuff, but yeah, Kabanti in the chat says, Gable needs to drop the IC title. He's in quickly. Gable and the parade of mid-card babyfaces can chase him. 7-11 says, I am all for Ethan Page as IC champ. DCW says, IC division feels like it's lacking heels. As much as I've enjoyed the Lucho matches, I am ready. to see something different. JTG says, I'm so sick of triple threat matches.

1:23:59 Every week on Raw and SmackDown, there seemed to be another one. WWE needs to stop relying on triple threat matches and start booking more proper singles matches. DCW says, Ethan Page is going to push that title to a new level. I really enjoy his work. He's also solid in the ring. Yeah, so it's not helping Gable being against other babyfaces. This was San Diego, so you have the excuse. Oh, they're going to be behind Rey. Um, but I mean, the fans were, I mean, it's again, more of a credit to Ray than, than Gable. We, you know, we acknowledge or observe that Gable's not as over as he wants and hopes and dreams of based on his ring entrances and pumping his fist to his eighties dad, rock music. But, um, but he is, he's

1:24:44 so good. And I think they just keep putting them out there thinking he's going to earn the respect of the fans. I think he has a respect to the fans. They just enjoyed him more as a heel. Um, Or they need to book him against actual heels and let him kind of develop that side of his character. Ethan Page is a perfect kind of heel because Ethan gets it.

1:25:05 He's not going for cheers. So I loved in the little vignette on the little whatever, the mini movie short thing they're promoting. What's it called? What reels?

1:25:16 Agent of Shadows. Real shorts.

1:25:19 Real shorts.

1:25:19 Yeah.

1:25:20 And Ethan's like, I got on it. Never acted. My first time. But I'll be better than everybody else. Just so Ethan Page. JTG, as far as Gable goes, says, Chad Gable's way too cheesy as a babyface. He was a much better heel. Crofton says, the Chad Gable slander will not stand. We're just making observations.

1:25:42 That's all.

1:25:44 DCW says, I might be the only one, but I don't mind Chad Gable's music either. I actually think it fits him. It does fit him. That's why he's not over.

1:25:52 It also fits a.

1:25:58 Training montage for a Karate Kid movie. But my question is, is Page going to team up with Big Cass? He was so much fun with Rusev. I wonder if him and Big Cass could be a fun twosome.

1:26:15 Cavante Smalls says, Cass as Ethan's heavy is a good use of Cass. Ethan provides the personality. that Cass lacks on his own.

1:26:23 Yeah.

1:26:26 Um, yeah.

1:26:29 All right.

1:26:31 I wouldn't know.

1:26:31 Um, because they've been used well since he came back. I don't think he deserved to be used well right now, but also I see Chad gave him instead of them continue to tell us that the IC title is the working man title or the working title. I think they're using Chad Gable just to show that it's the working title, and they're just sacrificing that just to get that part over.

1:26:55 So once somebody like Ethan Page gets the title.

1:26:59 And he do his heel thing and he ain't going to defend it every week, he going to make people have to earn to face him and stuff like that, that builds the resentment up for him and use that as a stepping stone for a heel Ethan Page title run.

1:27:16 Ethan Page, according to Derek Mitchell, is the quintessential heel and always enjoyed his work and would love to see an icy title run. Sadler says it'd be amazing if Gable was acting in wrestling like this is a serious heel. I wonder how high up the card he would go. The thing is, even if he's a serious heel, there's just still something about him that his niche is, I think, to be the smarmy, cornball heel. That's where he was the most entertaining. It's not all about.

1:27:44 I don't know.

1:27:48 Some people are good at something like Kurt Angle's good at humor but it kind of if you had pushed that down a little bit he could have been a bigger star there's a thread on Big Show and whether he was a case of somebody who in the VIP forum and if he had the career he deserved and I'd commented about that and one of the things with him is he just had like a good sense of humor and a wit and it kind of had he just been sort of more of a blah personality they might have pasted onto him a more consistent vicious heel persona but he was just he was kind of funny you know and and they kind of ended up working that in i don't know so sometimes sometimes you don't want to be the thing that you naturally are but

1:28:30 in gable's case i think it's the only thing he can do to get over and be entertaining except for having really good matches which we're getting which is why we're not calling it. You know, when the worst thing that happens is a character who's a baby face isn't getting cheered because he's kind of he's just not over and it's not a bad fit. But he's having Chad Gable level matches. I mean, that's not a bad fallback.

1:28:51 And that's where we are.

1:28:54 Yeah.

1:28:55 Very similar to Ilya Dragunov. I mean, he was just having fantastic matches, but the fans never embraced him.

1:29:00 Yeah.

1:29:02 Sadler says, I know Angle and Gable's a lazy comparison, but I think he could do a wrestling machine type gimmick and be a great heel. Yeah, it's just tough. We've seen a lot of who Gable is. I mean, it's like Eric Young in TNA. You know, he's just kind of Team Canada, and then he's kind of a comedy character, and then all of a sudden he tried to morph into Mad Dog Buzz Sawyer, and I was like, I don't know. We've seen too much of him being comedic and then he kind of made it work he was committed to the bit and i think he kind of made it work but i don't know that it's in gable i mean some of it's just his facial structure his facial reactions his body type you know so many things kind of play into in that environment are

1:29:37 we going to buy you in this role and i i think kurt angle had it in a way that gable doesn't to you know to play that badass heel all right throughout.

1:29:45 Yeah true And I've seen the birth of Gable.

1:29:48 And to me, he worked better when he was the goofy corn, because he always.

1:29:52 Been a cornball.

1:29:53 But he was a goofy.

1:29:54 Cornball that worked well with the straight, clean, dry guy, as in the Jason Jordan. He brought some type of entertainment out of Jason Jordan that he didn't have. It gave him a sense of a personality, which calmed down the cornballness of Chad Gable. So, We kind of hate that that tag team never really got their legs out of the main roster, but that was really his perfect role. Now, being a single and being somebody by himself, he's perfect as a heel, but it's kind of, you got to have the right baby face for him to face to be somebody in that heel.

1:30:32 Role as well.

1:30:34 But that was his perfect role in the tag team, being that cornball so he can have that personality that we see in his baby face role right now. next to somebody who's like a dry, a dry straight man, like a Jason Jordan.

1:30:46 So that would have been better.

1:30:48 Sadler version three in the chat says, I think the AAA run made me a believer that Gable can be serious. So yeah, I mean, it's a completely different setting and it kind of a different set of expectations for fans in terms of who they want to cheer and boo. There's, there's overlapping, but there is. So when I say entirely different, it's not entirely different, but there it's different enough. I don't know if it translates into the land of WWE's roster compared to AAA, but you know, he did show a side of himself there where you could, that's the evidence you would enter Sadler if you wanted to make the case and go, let's give this a try. Um, and maybe we'll get there.

1:31:21 Yeah.

1:31:22 Uh, and, and, uh, right. 1220 goes, why did Gable is a serious deal? El Grande Americano.

1:31:28 Yeah.

1:31:31 I don't, I mean, context was very different. Um, being under a mask. It sounds like a dig, but, um, Yeah, I mean, there's.

1:31:44 A lot of things in Mexico that we don't. Yeah.

1:31:48 Yeah. Derek Mitchell says, I think Gable has had so many roles trying to find his niche because Jason Jordan was a blue chipper and was going to be the star. But Jordan got hurt, left Gable nowhere to go at the time. Crofton says, have Gunther returned challenged for the IC title, saying he feels that since he lost it, the title has fallen from grace. And then give us multiple Gable Gunther matches.

1:32:07 That'd be good.

1:32:08 And then JTG says, WWE should have done a much better job booking Gable after he beat Penta at a PLE. Penta was a babyface and almost everyone Gable has faced since it has been a babyface.

1:32:17 True.

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1:33:19 All right, Jerome, what else?

1:33:22 All right.

1:33:23 Now, coming up, I hate lumping all them in as one, but I have My question makes me have to lump them all in as one. Now, back being that the title is back on live, we know they're not going to build up too many challenges for her to face. And right now they're focusing on the champion versus champion, which is good for them at the moment because they can build that story up. While also tonight, I think for the first time in a long time, they've been building up like three or four women's storylines, four women's storylines, champion versus champion. You're starting to see the re-rise of Io Scott going out with her chase of Raquel and trying to add some heat to that scene right there.

1:34:07 You also have the live Valkyria and Bailey. They're trying to turn that into something. And then you got the rivalry for the number one contendership between Stephanie Valkyria and Becky Lynch, which we got to see all of that tonight. And I say decent sized segments and stuff for each one and building within the show as a whole and not just giving a few seconds here then brushed off and they allowed them to do some chops.

1:34:38 This was the first time in a while and I was happy to see that.

1:34:42 Because this women's division, both titles need some type of building. And again, when Wade says the joy of performing and when I see Io gives that joy of performing like Waze, you know what I'm saying?

1:34:58 That is a real babyface right there.

1:35:00 And she just makes you want to draw you in and makes you want to cheer for her and stuff. And that IC title would need that, and Raquel would need that to be a heel against somebody like that.

1:35:09 She is as organically over as anybody, but there's a little too much joy sometimes. A little too much. I mean, I turn it down a little bit. And even, you know... Was it Barrett who said, yeah, she needs to maybe celebrate her success mid-match to the degree that she did, because it ended up backfiring during the match, too, when she spent too much time celebrating again. Barrett said she was celebrating the moment too much. So that is a, I know you said something nice and look at me saying something critical, but She needs to keep her eye on the ball. She needs to look like she's in a fight and not in a popularity contest where the cheer-o-meter going high means she's actually gaining actual power. And

1:35:56 the fact that it backfired tonight, and it usually does, it's like, come on, stay focused. You're in a fight. Make us believe that you care about winning and that you're worried about getting hit. Obviously in a real fight, nobody stops to celebrate. unless they know their opponent is completely knocked out in a bar fight. You don't just stop and go, Hey, bartender, give me a drink. And then you get hit on the side of the head.

1:36:17 It's like, what a dope you'd be. And people just, unless you're really drunk, don't do that.

1:36:22 Yeah, I agree. And she, she does go over the top when she pinned Raquel. Oh my God.

1:36:28 I have not seen such a happy woman on my television set. And it feels like years. She looked like she won the lottery. She was, she was so excited. But I did love her exchanges with Roxanne. Those two are a great combination. I think two of their top ring performers.

1:36:49 Anything else you want to add, Paul, on the women's division overall and the points Darrell brought up?

1:36:53 Oh, boy.

1:36:54 Becky and Stephanie, when did they both turn heel? They're so unlikable. Becky comes off like a big jerk, and Stephanie does as well. I can beat you with one leg.

1:37:06 I don't know what they're going for here, but, uh, I, I, I hope they got a plan because it's not looking good.

1:37:13 Why, why is, uh, the care sitting on like rolling crates in the back, getting her, her like, like tended to by a trainer, like can WWE not afford a proper training room? Was it being fumigated for, for like roaches or something? Like why, why, I mean, why are we sitting in a hallway on rolling crates or whatever that was? Um, it, or yeah, it just, that was, that was kind of silly too. Um, Not a huge deal, but.

1:37:39 Yeah.

1:37:40 The Becky Vicar thing hasn't... It's been a mess.

1:37:44 Yeah.

1:37:44 I mean, I just... I am... I am not against an occasional string from a certain structure. I really am not. But, my God, WWE life would be so much easier if you would stick to more of a structure and let Becky Lynch be popular, boot her against somebody who's not, and let fans hear... just why are we complicating it so much just you know i mean you see it when there's a heel people want to see get beat up like ethan page and we can list others you know it's kind of mid carter for the most part but this situation where hello becky's back she seems to turn baby face but care trying to get over hey let's have becky and becare picker and then let's put him against a heel who's actually kind of popular in

1:38:26 certain ways i don't know.

1:38:28 It's a mess another thing I want to mention real quick is I don't understand where they're going with Lyra Valkyria. This kind of reminds me of the last days of Baron Corbin. It makes me wonder if they're trying to kind of, I don't know, like get the most out of her humiliator on the way out, because I just don't see an upside. It just seems like they, making her, you know, play the fool and she just looks terrible and I don't see how this could possibly go well for her. It's bum ass Corbin all over again.

1:39:01 Darrell, what do you think?

1:39:03 I think they don't know what to do with the character.

1:39:05 They was trying to give her a dark, brooding character and they don't know how to transition that to something else to now she's deranged and seeing things and delusional. You let them made to drive her crazy. They don't know how to build heels. And I will ask you guys this question right here, just legitimately, right? I think you should have a deeper heel chart than you should baby face chart because you should... like, at least to every top babyface, let's say your top three babyfaces, you should have at least two, maybe three people, each one of them people who can legitimately feud with, so they don't have to intertwine or go with each other, like Wade said, if you have that dynamic. Now, if we

1:39:47 go off, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, if you look at that women's chart right now, just overall, just legit babyfaces, the top three would, in no order, would they be Becky, EO, And Stephanie Barqueira. Now, when you look on the heel side, just give me legit. Can you give me legit six heels that people would take serious outside of? We know Liv got her fan base, and I guess people are going to take her serious.

1:40:18 She the champ.

1:40:19 But outside of that, can you give me five of those right now that you can just think of? And I know that's a lot to ask. And that says a lot.

1:40:36 Wade, you're muted, I think.

1:40:38 Raquel, Roxanne, Lyra. I was staring off into space, not noticing I was muted. I'm trying to think of women on the roster who could be heels. Yeah, I mean, it is even Sadler version three of the Shackles. I agree with Darrell. The Raw women's division is weak right now. By the way, Sadler adds Lyra's character had potential, but they made it too goofy. Yeah, even the newer acts are more.

1:41:01 Babyfaces.

1:41:01 I mean, Cabante says every time Lola Weiss swivels her hips in the middle of her matches, I think awaits commentary about her not being in a serious fight. DCW says tonight it felt like Becky was leaning more heel. Hope she doesn't develop the bloodline problem. And going back to Io Sky for a moment too, DCW says Io's one of the most endearing parts of Monday Night Raw.

1:41:24 I know she can be a little extra, but she kind of makes it work for her. She does make it work, but You can make something work for you and still undercut what the vibe should always be, which is there's a sense of vulnerability and angst anytime the bell rings and you're in a match. Like, I just think wrestlers should never... We don't want to watch and have them think, oh, it's time to play to the crowd. Like, I think the feeling should be it's tense, it's serious, and...

1:41:53 we're in a fight and the stakes are high and I don't like getting hit. I don't like getting slammed. I don't want to get hit from behind. If I have an advantage, I worked hard for it. I want to keep it. And that's my focus. And if every wrestler had that, I think the product would be better. It'd be more, more immersive. So the fact that it works for EO doesn't mean it's not ultimately selfish of her.

1:42:11 Now she's not alone. It's not a policy she's violating, but in a sense, if you go, what works for her? Well, a lot of things work for somebody individually that undercuts, you know, other, the whole, effectiveness of the product, of the presentation, the product, the culture of the presentation, and that kind of thing does undercut it. I don't want to give her a pass for it, but I also want to say she's hardly alone when it comes to that.

1:42:37 Sadler goes, yeah, EO celebrated like she won the title.

1:42:39 That was so weird.

1:42:43 I'm interested in what you guys think of Lola. Do you think she's working?

1:42:46 Do you think....

1:42:49 Darrell's shaking his head no. Darrell, what do you think?

1:42:52 No, she's not working.

1:42:53 That was her same problem I had with her in NXT. I know they like to give those women those type of things and swerving the hips and stuff. That's not a character. Your beauty type of stuff, that's not a character. That only works for so long that people are going to get tired. You're swerving your hips every week. People are going to get tired of that. They're going to want to know who you are. Who is Lola Weiss?

1:43:15 What makes Lola Weiss Lola Weiss? Like, I think what Stone Cold asked Seth Rollins, what makes Seth Rollins Seth Rollins?

1:43:23 What makes you what you say?

1:43:25 What is a Seth freaking Rollins? What is a Seth freaking Rollins?

1:43:30 Yeah.

1:43:32 That's why I said you only have three probably legit babyface on the women's side and one main heel and nobody else.

1:43:44 Yeah.

1:43:46 iPhone users, if you're listening to us on the Native Podcast app on your iPhone, you can unlock our commercial-free versions of our free shows by searching PWTorch in Apple Podcasts. You'll see a charcoal gray logo that says PWTorch VIP on it. Click on that. There's some free samples of VIP shows, and you can unlock the entire VIP lineup, which includes VIP exclusives plus commercial-free versions of the free shows by searching PWTorch in Apple Podcasts and clicking on the PWTorch VIP logo. and then activate your three-day free trial.

1:44:16 And after that, you can become a VIP member using your Apple account. It's that easy. Enjoy a streamlined listening experience to our free shows and unlock all the VIP exclusives, including our post-pay-per-view roundtables, the Wade Keller news bulletins, everything with Rich and Wade, the fix that I host with Todd Martin, and a variety of other VIP exclusives. Just search PWTorch in your Apple Podcast app. yeah and tonight Lola it was mostly about just filling a little bit of time with some moves which is fine you got to do that on a wrestling show but it was 11 minutes minus commercial break and the last couple minutes were about Bayley and her interference and how the ref went looking under the ring but she had already left

1:44:59 the ring and outsmarting or outmaneuvering both the referee and Lyra Lola was a placeholder this wasn't about her they gave a little you know, little lip service, for lack of a better term, to this being a grudge match because of an inadvertent backstage thing earlier. But yeah, it's not, that's, I mean, there are, there's women who get called up and I think fans can tell pretty quick. Oh, so we get a one week orientation of who they are.

1:45:28 Now they're just going to merge in speed of traffic, have matches and, and we're just in an evaluation period live on national television and they may or may not rise above this level. Um, or someone you can end up feeling like you're overpushed and then there's a push back and that does also happen sometimes, but they don't, they're not great at establishing a, a personality hook that doesn't feel kind of pasted on superficial or kind of old, old timey. Um, so it's tough. I don't, I'm not, I don't have an answer, you know, on the tip of my tongue of how to fix it, but I'm just, you know, just reflecting on why I don't think there's a lot of passion. Part of it is, it's just, you don't get the feeling that they're fully ready for

1:46:17 primetime to be stars. And so it's easy to think they get overpushed. I think management's worried about that. So then they don't overpush them, but they're through the NXT system, which is everything is about, you know, I go back to Vince McMahon and draws, Oh, you're going to, you know, he threw up. And like the idea of, Oh, you can be a prison guard. You can be a garbage man. Like, And I know some of these were just like jobber-to-the-stars type TV acts. They weren't really major. It's like that era of the hockey player, Bill Irwin, and all that.

1:46:46 It wasn't like, we think these are going to be made of an axe. But sometimes the women, the NXT itself, the wrestlers who don't establish a character in front of actual fans on the indie scene trying to earn their keep with an indie promoter and get ass back, move up the card, get a win, get bigger paydays, and get crowd reactions. If you don't go through that, it's kind of like being... a trust fund kid where you're like you never really have to worry about money because you know you got this waiting for you and you turn 25 or whatever and it's just there's never that I need to wake up early I need to read this book I need to skip going out with my friends and I need to study this because I have

1:47:24 no net and wrestlers who bring that to national television with them and it's what Sammy and it's what Gargano and Kale were talking about you know we are We've been through this and you don't under Sammy and Gargano and chaos said stuff like that too. You don't, you haven't been on the journey we have to trick Williams.

1:47:47 And it's like, it's true and it doesn't always matter, but it can matter. And I think there's a lot of that with the women. They just, there's not that robust and AW has, less polished but they feel more real in some ways because they have you know worked in that element so yeah i'm kind of i'm just talking i'm just kind of thinking out loud about i think that's a good question to route um it brings up a good question a good topic but i don't you can't solve it by sending you know lola vice to i don't know a way for you know a three-year excursion to work more on developing a persona that doesn't feel nxtified um and some of this just feels a little too polished and you know nxtified if that makes sense even if somebody who has any experience or

1:48:30 international experience can sometimes have it turn into kind of a two-dimensional here's who she is vibe um that takes away some of the the grit so i don't know yeah i'm Like I said, I'm just kind of riffing. I don't have a real answer to it. I'm just kind of thinking out loud.

1:48:44 She really can be excellent in the ring, but the presentation just has never been quite right.

1:48:49 Yeah, yep.

1:48:51 But her not having a character is kind of take away from her being decent in the ring a little bit because it's like you said, it'd be too polished. She's just following along, hitting the moves that they talked about in the back and trying to stick to the choreograph. And she coming in right after and somebody who we haven't really seen except in Money in the Bank.

1:49:12 So Ruka, where's her?

1:49:14 Look how her rise, and I think with her, and them pushing her off the gate when she first came out, kind of damaged everybody after her, or really the next person after her, which is Lola Weiss, who comes in with no character as well, but hey, you don't want to give her the push because you see what happened to the last person and they didn't quite.

1:49:37 Get it and do it.

1:49:39 Yeah, they started straightening it up months later, but it kind of hurt them and they didn't have nothing to fall back on.

1:49:46 And that's something that I mean by.

1:49:48 I said this with 946 earlier, but established acts like what you and Wade were saying that been in the Indies and stuff like that, They have certain things that they can fall back on. These people don't have nothing that they can fall back on.

1:50:05 So that hurts them with the fandom. And when you're trying to present them and.

1:50:10 You're like, OK, you had a slip up, but you got this to fall back on in the pool for your memory banks. So you know how to. Hey, I might take me a second to get a part of it, but I know how to navigate it while I'm getting a part of it. Ethan Page got that background to lean on, so he know how to navigate. Oh, I had a rough start when they introduced me, but, hey, I know how to navigate it, and I can swing it all my way, and now I look even better now as they're starting to increase my load, which they were probably planning on doing, especially after seeing me lean back on that.

1:50:45 And these women don't have it right now.

1:50:47 We can even say, like, even with Stephanie back here, what keeps her in a baby face and at the top of that baby face, she do have.

1:50:55 A little bit that she can lean on a little bit.

1:50:58 It's not a lot, but it's something that she can lean on a little bit to keep the fans clamoring for her to keep her at the top of the car with Becky and they're competing for that. And that's what they're missing with the heels on the other side of the women.

1:51:15 Yeah.

1:51:15 Having something to fall back. Like Lyra had, you know, good number of years in the indie scene and, She came across like, okay, my gimmick's not working, but you could see her like kind of thinking on her feet and trying and having good matches and, you know, reacting to the crowd in a way that felt like I'm actively trying to figure out what's not quite clicking here.

1:51:34 And with Soruka or Lola Weiss, and it's like, oh, you know, MMA fighter, now you're a wrestler, you really understand it. Soruka just sort of a product of, you know, the NIL or, you know, the kind of that spirit of you're a great athlete somewhere else and I'll just turn you into a wrestler. And you can just see them thinking about, it's like Joe Testor trying to call a match. Like, you don't, there isn't, as you say, Darrell, that instinct and experience to fall back on when things need to be tweaked or aren't going well. So, anyway, nice getting along. Anything else, Darrell, you want to fit in before we go?

1:52:05 I'm going to leave you with something that I just want to ask. And this guy, he wasn't on the show. And the other guy that I want to speak on, he's not even WWE. That's AEW. And I wouldn't want to ask this on the AEW thing because I just like watching AEW. And I like hearing the commentating from you guys on Wednesday. But I see Will Ospreay should be comparable to the growing of Oba Femme. And I wanted to ask you and Paul. You see the level where Oba at. Even though he didn't show tonight, but you could tell the show would have been a plus if he was there. But you would like... that you can not have him on the show. And he's growing in that just oomph. And then after this weekend of me seeing the clockwork match and just how sometimes they

1:52:58 don't make Will Ospreay feel like over, how over feels and how you should make him feel. Is that a good comparison since they're both on the rise at the same time and How could we make Will feel like Oba and should Oba see something from Will to add on to him to continue his growth? Because right now I think Oba is at a different level right now than Will, but I wish Will could be at that level where they have.

1:53:30 Oba right now.

1:53:33 It's tough because there's so much more history that AEW fans have with Will than WWE fans have with Oba, even with NXT. but there's some history there with the slice of the audience that watch him in NXT, but he's just consistently who he was at the end of NXT. They just brought him in, and he's just an extension of that. Oba also just stands out. I mean, he is the epitome of turning heads at the airport type guy, and Will Ospreay is not. He's a good-looking guy, looks like an athlete, but you wouldn't go, oh, my God, I bet he's a pro wrestler. He could be a lot of things. Oba, you're like, you watch him at airport, you're like, if he's not a pro wrestler, he should be.

1:54:08 You know, like, that's your first thought. The airport test is, overrated but it's also sometimes underestimated what it can do to to be an advantage when you do get a push it doesn't mean i mean warlow turns heads in airports but you know he's not oba i mean he's just you know so um oba has something extra will have something extra but he has a lot of extra also like um there's goofiness and whatever and so to me Oba might have that, but WWE doesn't let you see it. AEW is sort of Tony Khan's like, I'm just going to let Will be Will. And I get it.

1:54:47 I think you want to let Will be Will to an extent, but I think there needs to be evidence of more thought and like every minute of TV for Will Ospreay right now should be in the early stages of pushing him as a centerpiece, babyface world champion, at least should be agonized over. It's just like, okay, the stakes are higher. Now you're headlining our pay-per-views. We want to stay on court. It's like learning to drive in a new city or you're driving the left side of the road now in England, instead of the right side in the United States, like you're, you're, you're thinking more about it because you have to, because the stakes are higher and I'm not sensing there's enough of that. I mean, there's video packages and things that they've done where like, Oh,

1:55:31 I think they're getting it. But then sometimes maybe they are doing it. And I just don't agree with some of the, personality quirks that they show him because they think it's charming and it'll be part of his act but you want him to be a serious person on a serious mission with serious goals on a journey that people think has high stakes not a guy who's just goofing around with his pals and um like he is a speedball and so i don't know i mean that's a topic for another show but or you know a flagship type topic i guess but they're they both can learn from each other but i think right now Tony Khan and Will Ospreay have more to learn. Don't push Will like Oba. He's very, very different. AW is very different.

1:56:13 Oba is going to get over more in WWE than he would in AW. It's a better place for him. Same with Will in AW compared to WWE. That said, there's something about being inspired by this is our guy. And Will's further along than Oba because he is the champion now. But it doesn't mean this isn't still a really important time. where you can sort of define him through subtraction and have him go, ah, now I'm not the co-pilot, I'm the pilot. You know, I am the leader of this. It's what I asked Heyman Page when he first won the AW World title. I'm like, are you going to show up Wednesday at Dynamite, like, feeling different?

1:56:52 And he's like, huh, hadn't really thought of that. Didn't know that was a thing. And I'm like, yeah, usually the world champion, even though it's just a fictional thing on the air that you actually– it is bestowed upon you because the belief is you are a locker room leader now. And if it's, and he didn't, he just thought I just kind of, you know, my impression I got is I just kind of show up and do what I'm told. And I play the world champion on TV.

1:57:14 It's like, yeah, but like you want to give, you want Will Ospreay to show up and go, I got to act a little differently now, you know, Oba walks in the locker room. There's, there's our future leader. Will should walk in the locker room. That's our leader. But instead you imagine it's more Will Ospreay or whatever. So, It's more Jon Moxley than Will Ospreay right now, if you look around. All right. Drell, you want to respond to that?

1:57:38 And I will say this.

1:57:39 I was just talking about leaning on what you can lean on. And you would think that we have more to lean on than are over. and over seems like he's leaning on to what you used to say you wanted people to do way like go and find somebody and talk to him and find out how you can roll on his character and i think what gets him over it seemed like he mowed on his character even though he's one of those people who brought up just like a soul rooker, you know, college athlete, but he got it. And then he kept seeking that knowledge. He's leaning on seeking the knowledge and tweaking what he needs during the stuff. That's why he's so good on the mic right now. And his mic skills match his ring talent.

1:58:23 And would you say.

1:58:27 Over leaning, he can continue to lean on what he's leaning on, and maybe Will Ospreay shouldn't lean on his past, previous knowledge, what he has brought to the table, and maybe lean on, hey, find something else to lean on. Maybe, hey, go seek something out, like you will see a young boy, which will be overdoing, and stuff like that, and could that improve And if they were both flip-flopped, how would that do? But, hey, that was a question I asked.

1:58:57 And I sent it in to the flagship because that's something that just hit me and I just had to ask it tonight.

1:59:04 Yeah.

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2:00:12 JC Scooby on Will Ospreay topic says, Will Ospreay, I'm not a big fan of. He's just a spot guy that does a bunch of moves. No storytelling in the ring. Derek Mitchell says, I don't think Will is being presented as a good champion. He wrestled eight times on Dynamite since he won the AW World title at All In. Derek, you said that was one of two. Oh, here we are.

2:00:34 MJF was always featured prominently throughout the show during its title reign. In contrast, the recent UK segment was cringeworthy. In AW, it's about where the best can fall. wrestle um yeah yeah i mean i think they need to move away from this is where the best wrestle i think they need to lean more because that's just self-evident you don't need to talk about it just people recognize that i think what you want to do is tell people this is where the biggest stars are um that's where the money is drawn um oba's dcw says oba's presence was sorely missed tonight i understand not wanting to overexpose him but there's nothing to do right now he is special sadler says when oba talks he amps me up Makes me want to watch him wrestle. When Will talks,

2:01:12 it makes me cringe half the time and not want to hear him speak at all. Just stop talking and wrestle. DCW says Will and Seth are similar in that way. They have to get in their stuff. I like both guys, so Will irritates me less than Seth does sometimes. JTG says Ospreay needs to be more serious. His feud with Hangman was great because his promos had less goofiness and felt more serious. So The idea that, well, because Will is unrestrained, unedited, and leaning into his personality traits that undermine taking him seriously as a leader is not in and of itself evidence that he isn't the best choice to be a top star and could be a top draw.

2:01:54 A poor execution of something is not evidence that good execution would not lead to it being successful. And I think it's fair to say this has been it's not just been poor. It's been all over the place. There's been weeks where it's like, they're getting it right. Other weeks where it's like, oh, no big deal either way.

2:02:13 Other weeks you're like, no, rein that in. You're going the wrong direction. It's still sort of early, but not so early you wouldn't want to see progress. But the fact that Will has traits, if there's an absence of irritants, if an edited version of Will Ospreay, I'm still 100% convinced with some guidance and some leadership could be the star that AW wants to be a big draw. So the lack of executing the Will Asprey world title elevation well is not evidence he's not the right guy at the moment. I still think he is. And I think it's in him, as one of the people in the chat said, he showed a serious side with Hangman. Like, just lean on that more. Be goofy after the show.

2:02:56 But let's make money during when the red light's on.

2:02:59 Mm-hmm.

2:03:01 So don't give up on him yet is kind of what I'm saying. You know, like, I don't think it's, I don't think it's, it's not like he keeps breaking from script and he's a, you know, goof. It's like, no, he just, he's kind of experimenting with what to present. And they haven't, they don't, Tony Khan doesn't have a clear, to me, doesn't have a clear defined vision that fits with Will's dranks, which is mostly subtraction of goofiness and then a need to elevate what is in him. And we've seen plenty of stuff.

2:03:31 All right.

2:03:32 Daryl, thank you.

2:03:32 All right, you guys. Yeah. All right, y'all. Have a great night. Awesome. Thanks.

2:03:36 Appreciate it. Always good talking to Daryl. Paul, anything else you want to add before we sign off? Anything else in your notes or anything else?

2:03:43 So I am wondering, a little bit unrelated, but where can PW Torch fans tune in to hear discussion about the Street Fighter movie?

2:03:52 Is that something that you plan on discussing?

2:03:56 Ooh. I mean, I could.

2:03:58 I could.

2:04:00 Have you seen it?

2:04:02 No, no, I haven't.

2:04:05 Okay, all right.

2:04:06 So what are you getting at? On the audio side, people don't see Paul. There's a lot of implications in his body language.

2:04:16 Well, I think it's interesting.

2:04:18 I think it's something that, you know, as wrestling fans, it's very interesting to watch how Cody did, how Roman did. Um, uh, by my, my short take is that Cody was a lot of fun. Roman had almost nothing to do, almost like when the rock was in the scorpion King movie and he was just CGI'd, um, it with his, his, his torso onto a scorpion's body. But, um, it is a, it's a heck of a lot of fun. Uh, if, uh, for anyone who especially is a fan of the video game from the, uh, from the nineties, but, um, Interesting seeing Cody and Roman in this different way.

2:04:58 So you talk about Roman more than Cody. Talk a little bit more about what you thought of Cody.

2:05:04 Yeah, so Cody was fun. They gave him a lot more.

2:05:07 Even though he wasn't as important to the story, they gave him a lot more to do. His comedic timing was really on. He fit in really well. Ironically, the one thing they did not give Cody Rhodes much to do was fight.

2:05:20 Yeah.

2:05:21 He fought less than just about anyone in the movie. But he was very natural, kind of understated. Whereas Roman, there was so much CGI going.

2:05:33 On, even his voice was modulated, that it almost wasn't really him.

2:05:38 Interesting.

2:05:39 Did he have more than one facial expression? Or more than three?

2:05:43 Well, there was the look of disgust. There was anger. And no, I guess, yeah, the three about some stuff.

2:05:49 Yeah.

2:05:49 All right.

2:05:52 We had a super chat from Derek Mitchell. This will be the first time at Crown Jewel they introduced champion versus champion in 2024 that Cody isn't the WWE champion. So in 2024 versus Gunther and last year against Seth.

2:06:08 Interesting.

2:06:09 Yeah.

2:06:09 Thank you for the super chat, Derek. That's interesting little fact there. Although there's still time for Cody to beat Sammy or Roman. I mean, it's not going to happen, but I We don't know for sure just to be a hundred percent accurate. Yeah. And they, they did not say crunch was going to be in Saudi Arabia. The graphic, they did not change. That would seem like news if they changed the graphic. So they're not changing the graphic, but they're not no rest. It seems like the wrestlers have been instructed to not say when I see you in Riyadh or when I see in Saudi Arabia, they have practice in that. And they are now back to that.

2:06:51 They're hitting their bats.

2:06:53 Yeah.

2:06:53 Cavante says Crown Jewel is coming off as an afterthought and rightfully so.

2:06:57 Yeah.

2:06:57 There's a, you know, real, obviously a real safety concern for wrestlers that should, I mean, after what happened with the Philadelphia Eagles quarterback this weekend and, you know, there's going to be a real, hopefully an adjustment to, in the college football game, in the military, a guy fall into his death, 170 feet for some stunt that didn't need to be even going on. Um, there, I, my point is like, I think they're so unrelated. They're, they're extremely unrelated, but it brings an awareness that entertainment is, it is important, but it can wait and X, you know, taking extra chances for no good reason is not, you know, it's not a good idea. And so, um, I don't know how the scene is going to change in the

2:07:47 Middle East in the next couple of weeks. That's going to make it make sense. They have a backup plan. They have a backup location.

2:07:52 Yeah.

2:07:52 And I'm communicating people in WWE. They haven't heard the final decision as of like this weekend.

2:07:56 So what does your gut say? Do you think they're going to do? the safe thing?

2:08:01 I don't think they'll go to Saudi Arabia. I don't think they will. I think they're in a mode right now of just what's the most politically palatable way to get to that conclusion without upsetting anybody in terms of the relationship and all the money at stake and the embarrassment of not being, you know, which is, I think there's, there's more than we can probably imagine going on where Dodie's trying to kind of tiptoe towards taking a path to get to the conclusion that is we, they're not going to delay it. They'll just run it in a different place, but yeah.

2:08:37 It's, it's not, I hope that's, I hope that's what happens.

2:08:39 Yeah.

2:08:40 I mean, do you think that's the obvious right thing to do or do you think there's wiggle room?

2:08:43 No, I, I, it seems to me that that is, that's the right thing to do. And, uh, Um, and it makes sense that they're just trying to maneuver themselves to extract themselves, you know, and not be in, in breach of contract or insult their partners.

2:08:57 Yeah.

2:08:58 Uh, JC Scooby says wrestlers need to come together and say they're not going no matter what. Um, yeah. Uh, DCW says now more than ever, they need to not go to Saudi Arabia. I don't think that works well in their favor. The reward is, is not worth the risk.

2:09:13 Yeah.

2:09:15 Um, yeah, it's, uh, The story, if something were to go wrong, is... I mean, I don't want to overstate things, but if things went really wrong, it could be the end of TKO. You know, I mean, it's just... The ramifications of knowingly walking into a situation that could lead to mass deaths or terrorist act or a bombing or something like that, and knowing ahead of time... I mean, which Aylan hurts. I mean, medically, they... knew him flying was going to put him at risk and exacerbate a condition.

2:09:53 And so, yeah.

2:09:56 Yeah.

2:09:57 Yeah. It could be catastrophic. I agree.

2:10:00 Yeah. DCW says, yeah, I agree. They need to come together on this issue. TKO can fire them. Can't fire them all at once. Well, they can, but good luck with the ramifications. All right. Thanks, Paul. Always great having you on.

2:10:13 Likewise. Great to talk to you, Wade.

2:10:15 Yep.

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