5 YRS AGO RAW POST-SHOW: Keller & Hawkins talk Charlotte vs. Belair finish, King & Queen tournament semis, McIntyre-Big E, Crown Jewel hype

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1:35 Now, PW Torch brings you the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show.

1:44 Five years ago this week on the Raw Post Show, I was joined by Cameron Hawkins from PW Torch, and we had live callers that answered email questions about that night's episode. We discussed the majority of the matches ending with clean finishes, except the two biggest matches, including a DQ ending for the main event, Raw Women's title match between Charlotte and Bianca Belair. We also discussed the finals being set up for the King and Queen tournaments, final hype for Chrome Jewel, including the latest tension between Drew McIntyre and Big E, and more.

2:10 So let's get to it.

2:11 This is the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show. Five years ago, Raw flashback for Tuesday, October 20th, 2026. This originally live streamed on October 18th, 2021. Tonight's Raw featured a main event of Charlotte versus Bianca Belair for the Raw Championship. And it ended by DQ when Charlotte bashed Belair with a chair. A lengthy and good main event match marred by kind of a cheap cop-out finish. But it was a show that oddly featured clean finishes in six out of eight matches. I don't think we had one instance of a distraction there. And that was among the more noteworthy things on the show. We also have the King of the Ring and Queen's Crown finals set.

2:59 It'll be Zelina Vega taking on the winner of tonight's.

3:01 Match, Doudrop.

3:03 And it'll be Xavier Woods taking on Finn Balor in the King of the Ring finals on Thursday. Also noteworthy, I don't know if I missed it, but I don't know if they mentioned Saudi Arabia by name. They had a plethora of Saudi Arabia mentions last week on TV.

3:20 So that was kind of interesting.

3:21 And then we had Drew McIntyre and Big E teaming up successfully against Dolph Ziggler and Bobby Roode and Austin Theory getting a clean win against Jeff Hardy.

3:31 So those are some of the high points on the show.

3:33 We also had Goldberg and Lashley in a back-and-forth that I thought was pretty good, hyping up their match.

3:39 And, yeah, so a lot to talk about on tonight's show.

3:43 Cam, did it strike you watching the show tonight how many just non-distraction-oriented people or actually a complete lack of distractions and how many clean finishes there were, except for, you know, the big two matches. It almost felt to me like they were trying to build up equity, like there was some self-awareness that the two major matches not having a good finish would jump out more if they had screwy distraction finishes.

4:08 The rest of the show.

4:09 Well, if we want to talk self-awareness, Wade, if you include the Jeff Hardy-Austin Theory match, if you include R-Truth's involvement, Every single match except the Doudrop and Shayna Baszler match featured a black wrestler.

4:26 Yes.

4:27 That's insane.

4:28 I didn't have it quite to that level, but while I was watching the show, I was thinking, there's a lot of black.

4:35 People on this show.

4:36 And it struck me because there were times in the last however many decades I've been watching wrestling, you could go weeks not seeing a black person on a wrestling show.

4:47 Yeah. I think– no, the pandemic changed a lot. They started to rely on– I mean Bobby Lashley and the Hurt Business and the New Day were such a big part of that era. And so it was really striking tonight. I was like, wow, this is like a really black show. But no, outside of the things that specifically appealed to me, no, it was a lot of clean finishes, very little– distractions and distractions that came like Zelina and Xavier, um, putting on the crowns and putting on the capes and kind of, you know, uh, Who do I want to say? Peacocking a little bit. Shout out to the network. Peacocking a little bit. And then there being interaction with them and Finn and her and Doudrop. Yeah. It was like– it

5:30 was a very straightforward concrete show. I think that probably the best thing that they did– I thought the main event was really, really good. I understand Bianca not winning. But they ran back Drew and Biggie and the Dirty Dogs in a match that everybody was like, you're doing this again. But they did it in a way where, hey– We don't need baby faces hitting each other from dumb misunderstandings. Let's pretend like that one Triple H segment where he didn't drink the water bottle, like they actually watched the show too. And they were like, hey, we don't actually have a problem. We'll get along, but our beep is over the title. Let's make it about that.

6:09 I thought that was a good cover-up for last week. Even if you run it back, I thought they did a good job there.

6:15 Yeah, I think having Drew McIntyre and Big E, who no matter what they do, on Thursday, they want them both to be babyfaces coming out of the kind of post-Crown Jewel era that we're in or the.

6:27 Whatever.

6:27 Yeah.

6:28 And when we move into the roster sort of being settled post-draft. And you want them both to be liked. I mean, Drew's already called out Roman Reigns. He's going to be a lead babyface on SmackDown, it appears. Big E remaining babyface champion on Raw. And last week, they seemed petty and they weren't real admirable and it felt trite and and cliche to have, you know, them have misunderstandings.

6:50 They kind of, they hinted at it a little bit when Drew was moving over to address Roode as Roode was kind of hinting at maybe interfering. But they didn't, you know, go too far with that. And I thought it was good to have tension between them after the match where, you know, Drew spun around Big E, they seem to be on the same page, but then Big E's like, has to spin Drew around to go, you're not, you're not just going to manhandle me. I'm going to make sure I get kind of the last little shove in.

7:13 And then You know, Drew going, hey, I've been planning to be champion and focused on being champion for 20 years. And I love that we could overhear him saying we're the same age. I like when there's something said off mic that we can hear that feels real.

7:28 It isn't just, you know, nonsense. You know, like just, oh, I'm just going to yell at you.

7:33 Like, I think it's interesting when two wrestlers are battling for a championship and they're the same age. They've taken, you know, different journeys to get to this point. But, you know, sometimes it's more relevant when it's a young guy against an older guy. But anytime you bring age and experience into it, it makes it feel more sports-like.

7:49 And it adds this easy, free layer of intrigue to the match. Because now that seed is planted in viewers' minds. Like, yeah, these guys aren't, it's not like one generation against another. Like Austin Theory, who looked up to Jeff Hardy as a kid. These are two people who have, you know, there's a different sort of rivalry you have with someone in your age group. than someone who's, you know, 10 years younger, 10 years older. You just, I've learned that in life. I mean, I look at people differently, right or wrong, who are my age compared to 10 years younger and 10 years older.

8:17 It's all different. So I thought that was a nice little touch.

8:19 The more it feels like wrestlers are freestyling in an intelligent sports-like way, especially when they're baby faces, the better. And I'll add to that, you know, Bianca Belair, I just, I'm so in favor of where she has landed as a baby face. And One of the things she was saying to Charlotte– she's saying all these things to Charlotte about winning and being great and all that. But she also said you can learn to be a little more kind.

8:44 And Charlotte's just such a jerk. And it's just like I'm– I like that. Some people are like, oh, that's so whatever. Why would a baby face ever express like a positive trait of something to aspire to?

8:56 That's not cool.

8:58 I love that. I think there should be more of that because– It doesn't just help Bel Air, but it actually creates a culture within WWE. And I talked about this on a Wade Keller hotline last week when someone asked, why is Vince so, where does he come up? Why does he come up so short when it comes to promoting baby faces? And I said, part of it is largely the culture of the presentation at WWE from the announcers to the wrestlers where they don't spend their time weaving in that, having some good values and conducting yourself with honor and is something to be admired. And, you know, instead it's do what you got to do to win and whatever it takes. So Belair is at a place as a babyface act that I really like. And I

9:35 thought Drew and Big E, this was a much better version of the face-face hype matchup than what we saw last week, which was a step backwards. This was a step forwards, even if there was a bit of a rerun aspect to it.

9:47 Yeah, I think if we talk about like a change in culture, if you go back a few weeks to and it might be a couple of months to the Usos and the Street Profits, if you go back to them Friday Night Smackdown, their first. interaction it was very much i know what you stand for i know what you can do here's why i think we're better i think that and and Also, a lot of credit to Roman Reigns over the last year. But I think that they have done this thing, this shift where real conversation and real trash talk and real competition has really come into play. Like the way that Xavier stepped up and talked to Finn. Like I did my research, Wade, because I was talking to you, so I got into my research, right?

10:33 Yeah.

10:34 In the Men's King of the Ring tournament, Xavier is the only person in the tournament who's never held a singles title in WWE.

10:42 Interesting.

10:42 The only one. Because Cesaro has that one U.S. title run, right? Yeah. So it's kind of a thing where I got to talk myself up. I got to let you know where I stand. I got to try to big time you if I can. And even like I love the two baby faces. I love Kofi stepping in. I love Finn not overstepping his boundaries as a baby face. Like, yeah, they are a few people wave. I think the New Day as a collective, the Usos, Roman, Bianca and Ali, too.

11:14 I think they have really introduced some people who are going to give you that natural trash talk, like that natural pushback to where the person against them can be their best self. Like, again, I think Becky Lynch is amazing. I think she's great. I think Becky Lynch is so far gone in a good way that there's really not back and forth when she's like beefing with somebody. She kind of overtakes the conversation. But Bianca and Charlotte is a great dynamic because these are two college athletes. That's a different dynamic than they typically have. You get that with Big E sometimes, but these are two high-level college athletes who both think that they're the best and can really talk to each other back and forth with neither

11:57 one of them feeling like they're smaller during the conversation. That was a really great back and forth and a great match afterward, for sure.

12:04 And in fairness to Mansoor? He might have done some great trash talking in Arabic. It seemed to come out pretty naturally shooting back at all either.

12:12 Does anybody have a better home field advantage than Mansour? No. He's not going to lose at crown jewel. I don't care who you put him against. He got that in the bag. It's not even fair. The handicap is turned up to 27.

12:25 Although I'm a little worried what his punishment might be if he doesn't win, even if it's a work.

12:29 I'm a little worried about that.

12:31 Chill out.

12:32 A little extra pressure.

12:35 Oh, my. Did you know that you can enjoy commercial-free versions of all of your favorite Wade Keller podcasts and PWTorch daily casts on Spotify? Just go to patreon.com, search PWTorch, and subscribe to a VIP membership tier. You get a seven-day free trial, by the way, to kick the tires a bit and see if you like the service. And then sync it with Spotify, and you can listen to commercial-free versions of our free shows, like the Wade Keller post shows, the Wade Keller podcast flagship, our flashbacks, and also the PWTorch daily cast lineup. Again, all commercial-free, a nice streamlined listening experience. But with third-tier membership, you can also unlock all the VIP podcasts, including Everything with Rich

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13:49 No, last I even pointed out last week, I was like, wow, OK, they're doing that this year because at least last year it did not come up at all. But like you said, they really did make a point to drive home the location of the show last week. I wonder if there was pushback and they're not doing it this week.

14:05 That's what I was thinking, you know, because they've been timid about it, rightfully so. And, I mean, I saw some activity on Twitter, you know, about how a lot of businesses have pulled out and WWE is making all this, you know, $ 40 million or whatever on this event.

14:21 And, you know, I mean, it's replaced the pay-per-view.

14:23 It's worth noting, this is the last, I think this is the last major event in WWE before their New Year's show. This is the last big event of 2021 because with Peacock, I mean, they are delivering to the letter of the contract and not a bit more, it looks like. Because with Adobe Network, they would want to stack up all the special events so they could get more subscribers because they'd make more money. Now they get a flat fee from Peacock. So guess what? Crown Jewel now replaces the December pay-per-view. And then there's only one Sunday event left, Survivor Series, and nothing in December. So there's one Sunday pay-per-view left in addition to this one is how I should have phrased it. And in a way,

15:03 it gives a little more breathing space to things. But it also, and we'll talk about it, makes... Crown Jewel, a more major event. There's more matches on this show than there would be if WWE was also hyping WWE Network and they had... a more standard October pay-per-view right around the corner and perhaps even a December pay-per-view they were trying to save up like a hell in a cell match for.

15:25 So this is a pretty loaded lineup.

15:26 It's a super stacked card. Like this card is crazy. Yeah. And I got to blame you for something really, really quickly because then we're going to get to other stuff. But I'm touching like 12,000 followers on Twitter now.

15:36 Yeah.

15:36 So I'm starting to realize I can't just say what I think. Like you and I actually did this show a year ago before Crown Jewel. And I said on the show, hey– I feel like the people in charge of Saudi Arabia are probably the people responsible for the 9-11 attacks, so I don't watch the show. And nobody had a problem with it. I said on a Friday night, Wade, I wish the people who are hosting Crown Jewel weren't the people I think– responsible for 9-11 I'd love to watch the show and my mentions were ablaze the entire night because people decided that reading wasn't fundamental anymore and then I was blaming the citizens of Saudi Arabia in some way shape form or fashion it was very nasty I had to make fun of a lot of people

16:28 and say one guy's forehead was really really really big but outside of my personal because again I Anybody can watch what they want. I certainly won't judge. That's certainly up to you. But this is a super stacked card that I hate that I'm missing. Like this is a really, really, really not even top heavy. It's good all the way around.

16:48 This is a really good show. I'm going to enjoy the gifts on Twitter. I can't wait.

16:54 I think the fact that this is a very loaded show on a Thursday after morning slash afternoon. You know, people can say, oh, you can watch it on delay when you get home from work. Well, how many people realistically and some will some aren't on social media and good for them. But many, many people are in good for them, too. It's hard to avoid spoilers, especially when there's a match as big as, well, a number of them.

17:19 But Roman Reigns and Brock Lesnar in particular. And it's it's it still feels and I said this a lot.

17:25 I'll keep it short.

17:27 WWE fans, like Nick Barbatti was joking about this at the top of Nick and Tom's Intercontinental Adventure on Saturday, a VIP podcast that is WWE-centric every weekend.

17:36 He's like, oh, yeah.

17:36 Fantastic show, by the way.

17:37 They are great. And Nick was saying, yeah, you know what?

17:42 This lineup's so strong, I went online.

17:45 I was convinced. I've changed my mind. I want to go. I'm going to go. And he's like, I couldn't find tickets? i couldn't find a flight it was a great bit.

17:56 Um he played it straight again fantastic wait wait can i ask you a question and i mean this and i wanted to ask the timeline but the timeline can be mean um do the people who attend the show pay ticket prices to go to the show or do they just go to the show you know i'm not sure I'm going to ask. I think there's somebody I can ask about that. I'm curious because I'm like, are you just like, is it like the North Korea show?

18:25 And again, I know just enough about geopolitical politics like to talk about them. But that's something I'm not super invested in as far as the actual extent of. Of power that people have. So I'd love to know if they actually pay to go to the show, because does it adjust things slightly? For sure. But but yeah, it's just I'm not comfortable watching. And Wade, the pushback was because Twitter is this. Well, the American government, I don't watch American government funded wrestling shows either.

18:56 I don't.

18:57 I'm not a tribute for the troops guy. I'm doing something in December. That's my birthday. I don't watch that. But yeah, I'm really curious to see exactly what the breakdown is because, I mean, there could be some value. And there's absolutely value in our citizens performing. There's value in their citizens getting to see something super cool. I don't take away from that. I just have certain boundaries.

19:19 That's all.

19:21 WrestleTix does report that there are no more tickets available for for the 22,000 seat venue, which implies tickets were sold. Um, so unless they're all just given away to friends and family, you know, and that's why there's no tickets.

19:36 I was like, I wonder if you can just say, I want to go, you know, but, but again, that's, that's not an indictment on, on anybody. Um, I'd love to have the actual information. So I'll check that out. Yep.

19:48 Uh, so, uh, we're going to, going to cover Crown Jewel, although as I was saying, I think a lot of fans resent the idea that some of these big matches are presented on a show that's bought and paid for and not, quote, earned. Markets work hard to earn a WrestleMania. People like to travel to see the biggest matches. They take pride in in planning around that and you have we'll see how survivor series compares but a big lineup uh here late in 2021 post pandemic and you can't go you can't go see it in person and you by the way you can't even watch it live unless you take a day off from work or your workout hours and there's something about that you know communal experience of of of social media and watching something live and

20:31 and and now you sort of have to either unplug or get spoilers ahead of time so it it's It's a money grab by WWE. It is not a product. It's not a host city that earned it in the way other cities that are supportive of WWE earned it. And that's not, again, it's not anti-Saudi. There's a lot of good people in a lot of bad countries. And I say this in a general sense. Just because you hate a government doesn't mean you should hate the citizens.

20:55 And a lot of them are wishing they could fight back or quietly fighting back or punished for fighting back against corruption and lack of freedom and lack of progress. And so anything that's, you know, well, you know, yes, anything that's said about a regime or a country doesn't necessarily apply to the citizens. And it is good to, you know, have people clarify that or make sure that that's in the context of what we're saying. So a loaded lineup. Nevertheless, we're going to talk about it because WWE promoted it. And it is the peak of a lot of storylines before they reshuffle for the draft. Admit it, you love Nick Barbatti when he co-hosts with me on the Wade Keller Post Shows. Well, now you can listen

21:39 to him every week on the Nicky's Club, a VIP exclusive podcast.

21:42 Here's Nick to tell you more.

21:44 Hey, wrestling fans. It's Nick Barbatti, and I'm back with the Nicky's Club, the place where the family of Nicky's comes together for big laughs and sharp takes on WWE. From WrestleMania rumors to surprise returns, I got you covered. The Nicky's Club, where the wrestling feels like the coolest club in town.

21:57 Nick Barbatti wants to be part of your pro wrestling life every week, so... Why not let him? GoVIP. PWTorch.com slash GoVIP for full details on signing up. We're compatible with Patreon, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and just about any other iOS or Android app out there. You can also stream directly from our ad-free VIP website. The Nicky's Club, waiting for you every week at PWTorch VIP. Let's pause and introduce ourselves here, introduce the show.

22:27 This is the.

22:27 Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show. for Monday, October 18th, 2021. I'm Wade Keller, the founder, editor, publisher. I'm trying to match all of Tony Khan's titles.

22:39 I don't know.

22:41 Pro Wrestling Torch newsletter, pre-internet, and pwtorch.com, and the host of some of the earliest podcasts covering professional wrestling dating back to 2003, which, by the way, for VIP members, we run on a regular basis on our VIP podcast feed, We, uh, are rolling through our 2003 post pay-per-view round table podcasts that were around before the word podcast had even become a thing before it'd become an official word in our lexicon. Um, those are available on our VIP feed. So, uh, one of the many benefits of being a VIP member. Um, so go VIP pwtorch.com slash go VIP. And, uh, I'm currently the host of, uh, the way Keller aptly named Wade Keller post shows and podcasts. And also, uh, the Wade Keller Hotline for VIP members, which is a daily

23:27 update with a variety of formats, and The Fix with Todd Martin, and everything with Rich Phan, and the aforementioned post-pay-per-view roundtables. So, yeah, thank you for streaming or downloading the show or subscribing. And the other voice you hear tonight is Cameron Hawkins from the PW Torch East Coast cast.

23:47 Cam, welcome.

23:47 Welcome.

23:49 Wade, thank you for always having me. When we get to that point in the show where we're talking about what we're doing, I'm going to blow your mind.

23:56 Well, I was going to say, let's not wait until the end.

23:59 We did a long preamble before intros. So we've earned a little bit of early plug time for you. So is it going to blow everyone's mind or just mine?

24:10 Well, not everyone because some of my people are listening to this like on Twitch. But here's the thing. On– The first Friday in the month, Wade, which would have been October the 8th, I was actually in New York City at Comic-Con.

24:29 Wade, I got to stop you. If October 8th was the first Friday of the month, what was October 1st?

24:35 Oh, good point. Good point. That exists.

24:37 I'm here to fact check. I'm here to fact check.

24:40 On October the 8th, I was in New York for Comic-Con. I was actually a part of a panel. hosted by Tiger Driver, which was called The Beauty of Blackness in Wrestling. It was myself, Chris, who is the founder of Tiger Driver, Jay Rose, who is a writer and producer for Paradigm Pro Wrestling, Kaz, who. You'll most famously know Kaz for writing the New Day Usos battle rap segment. But he was a writer in WWE for a while. Faye Jackson, retired wrestler. My close friend, lovely creator. Yeah, we were on a six-person panel talking about the beauty of blackness in pro wrestling. It was like 150 people in the room. It was the coolest thing I've ever been a part of. And, of course, Wade, my close personal friend, Maxwell Jacob Friedman, showed up to–

25:32 encouraged me during the show i blame you for all of this thank you for the platform ruining my life i don't know it's fantastic um uh we got together and just talked about um how great it is to have people like us in the pro wrestling business um what we want to do in wrestling going forward it was super positive it was great you can find that on youtube if you search uh big gold belt Who is who recorded that interview with us. So, yeah, Wade, you're you're this thing I've been doing for so long that you've helped foster led to me being on a panel at New York Comic Con, the second biggest comic con in the world. And yeah, great experience and. Now I'm doing like five different features this week. Everything's been

26:17 going great. Um, yeah. So please check that out again, the beauty of blackness and pro wrestling, New York comic con. You can find that on YouTube, a great show, a great experience with the not so much surprise of MJF being MJF, but a very good time.

26:32 That's tremendous. That is awesome.

26:35 Um, While you're mentioning things, you mentioned your Twitter followers. What are other ways people can follow what you do and what you say about professional wrestling and other things?

26:46 Absolutely. So on Twitter and on Instagram, it's Seahawk, C-E-E-H-A-W-K. Also, Travis Bryan and myself host the Pro Wrestling East Coast cast. Um, that's definitely a show you can find at eastcoastcast.com.

27:00 Never heard of it.

27:00 If you want to experience it, you've heard of it. Thank you.

27:03 No, no, I've never heard of it.

27:04 Oh, you've never heard of it. Oh my God. Um, that's a problem. If you want to experience it on the interactive level, uh, twitch.tv slash Seahawk. I definitely live stream while we're doing it every Wednesday evening, 630 Eastern, 530 Central. And then you can also listen to my show, which touches wrestling but also talks about the goings on in pop culture um that is going to be each friday night after rampage at twitch.tv slash seahawk so yeah we we are really working on expanding this thing we don't know if travis told you travis works for the government now how dare he right and so.

27:39 There's no way that's there's no way that's true i mean did they not i don't want to get him in trouble but did they ask Did they like– You're going against.

27:46 Everything you stand for, guy. But no. So we've had to shuffle around the East Coast cast a little bit. I believe we'll be on this Wednesday, 6.30 Eastern, 5.30 Central. But yeah, I've been– the media thing. Oh, and one more thing. I did actually– even though I went to Comic-Con, the next day I went to JCW and GCW. So I was there for the Moxley, Nick Gage– Wait. And I know you've been doing this a long time. Wait, I've never seen a death match in person.

28:19 Yeah.

28:20 I sobered up immediately. It was the scariest thing I've ever seen in my life. I was like, oh, they're really cutting each other with pizza cutters. This is insane. But no, it's fantastic. Shout out GCW. Shout out to Brett and Orange Crush, who are great hosts. They have a great roster. They basically let us stay in the room forever. Myself, Faye Jackson, and Lovely, they're going to stay in the room the entire day. So while I watched Texas blow what should have been an insurmountable lead, everybody was real nice. The wrestlers were cool. They were real informative. Just a great show. And I talk about that on my Twitch as well. So if you look at my Twitch from last week, you can see my review of both JCW and GCW. Great shows in Atlantic City. Absolutely.

29:02 You know, this is just weird, but when you said also that weekend– I went to JC, and I thought you were going to say JC Penney.

29:09 I'm like, where is this going?

29:11 I did not buy khakis.

29:13 Yes.

29:15 No, they actually ran back to back. They ran JCW in the afternoon, GCW in the evening. Also, Leo Rush, you are not fooling anybody wearing a hoodie with a mask. We know it's you. He tried to be inconspicuous. You have blue braids, Leo Rush. We know who you are. But no, again, everybody was really, really nice. Put on a great show. Super respectful uh roster super respectful crowd wade again i blame you i'm weirded out that people know who i am now people were at comic-con and at the shows like hey are you cam i'm like yeah it's scary but no um a great experience the whole weekend um We're making waves. We're making things happen.

29:56 And between you and Travis, Wayne, I owe you guys so much. This thing is going great. Thank you.

30:01 Awesome.

30:02 I'm excited for everything that you've got going your way right now. And I hope everybody checks all that out.

30:08 Okay.

30:09 Let's get out the phone numbers here. And we'd love to have your participation in the show. If you're listening to us live on our regular stream or on Cameron's Twitch, our number is 347-215-8558.

30:19 Don't be shy. Call 347-215-8558.

30:27 And push 1 on your keypad to indicate that you want to be on the program.

30:33 Again, that's 347-215-8558.

30:36 You can also email the show at wadekellerpodcast at pwtorch.com. That is wadekellerpodcast at pwtorch.com. All right, let's begin here with a call. We will begin with Nick in Brattleboro. You are first up tonight. Nick, thank you so much for calling. What stood out on Raw tonight for you?

31:07 Good evening. Hey, Cam, great to talk to you again, and I'm with you on not watching the show, but. You know, that's what it is. I'll listen to the PW Torch and get all the info on that. Going to push back a little bit on you, Wade, on the bad finishes tonight. Yes, they only had two, but they were the two best matches. And, you know, while I was watching the Bianca Charlotte match, I'm just going, okay, is Becky going to run out? Is Sasha going to run out? Is Charlotte going to grab the belt and run away? WWE has trained me to, when I'm watching something on Raw, or SmackDown for that matter, that's a big match between two really big people. I'm just waiting for the messed up finish. And it just, in a way,

32:13 almost hurts my enjoyment of the match. and I wish they wouldn't do that.

32:20 Two things, Nick.

32:20 One, you can't be pushing back on me because you just stated facts and I stated facts. I don't think I was like keeping praise on them. I was more acknowledging. I was just acknowledging I was surprised.

32:30 That we didn't get... I mean, because whenever.

32:32 There's a distraction finish in my written reports on pwtorch.com, I put the word distraction in all caps because I want to shame them and I want people to realize, oh my God, it's another distraction. I've been doing this for months and I didn't get to do it except when I said there wasn't a distraction.

32:47 Like....

32:49 My caps lock is sort of like going, what's going on? Did you forget about me?

32:55 So no, no, I'm neither praising nor criticizing as much as I'm just saying it's noteworthy. And I do think perhaps they were self-aware in having all the matches except, well, the two that people care most about have clean finishes.

33:11 So that's something we can get into more.

33:13 But when there are six out of eight matches with, a clean finish without a distraction or a yank of the tights or interference or anything that is noteworthy that does not exempt them.

33:23 And this is why, you know, good point. You bring it up.

33:25 Nick does not exempt them from criticism of that, that the two matches that people cared the most about there was not a satisfying finish. Now I think in the tag match, you would kind of see it coming just based on it's Riddle and Randy Orton against the straight profits. It's a, You know, two babyface tag teams and AJ Styles and Omos are hanging out nearby. So I wasn't surprised by that. And the stakes weren't high. Like, you know, what does it matter who wins? I mean, I hate to say that, but in the WWE context, it's not like they're going to be talking about the Street Profits winning or losing this match two weeks from now. So I didn't think that was like a high crime as much as more of a match to set up an angle.

34:05 But the Charlotte Bianca match, they spent a lot of time building that up. cam i thought there was i thought there were gonna be a title change i thought they were just gonna just gonna do it and i was expecting one way or the other a clean finish because as nick is expressing it's so on brand to not do one and they were doing so many clean finishes i'm kind of thinking well maybe they are uh finally gonna do like you know surprise us and just just go, go ahead and have a win before sending Charlotte on her way. Cause that's what they do when quote people leave the territory. What were you thinking as in the lead up to the match and watching it?

34:41 And what's your take on the finish?

34:42 I thought the lead up was really good. I thought Bianca established like as a baby face that you trust that she was going to do everything she could to win the title. I think the moment for me in the match when she, when she hit the super German, like I know he's superplex technically is from the middle or top rope, but When you do the German suplex where the person lands on their belly, it's like, okay, we're in business. We're really going there. So when that happened, I was like, oh, we're getting something clean. They did a lot of good near falls. And again, I think that they are the closest thing to a mirror on the women's roster that we've had. Like these super athletes who are Big and strong and fast and can just

35:25 do like these athletic things that everybody can do. I was like, oh, we're getting something clean. So I also thought that I kind of understood at the end why they didn't do it. I because here's the way this is what I think is going to happen. I think we're going to do. A literal title swap between Becky and Charlotte. I think that the feud that they have historically is really great. I think that's going to be a very tense moment that I'm going to want to watch.

35:51 But I literally think they're going to trade belts and there's going to be a fight or something involved. But that's what I see happening. So I kind of went into it thinking that. But again, that match was really good. But as soon as she hit her with the chair, I went back to my previous thought process and was like, OK, that's what we're getting.

36:09 You know that last segment you're just listening to and the next one that you're waiting to listen to? Those can be one second apart with a VIP membership. You can unlock our commercial-free versions of our shows. PWTorch.com slash GoVIP tells you how to do it. That's PWTorch.com slash GoVIP. Options exist within the Apple Podcast app using your Apple account, through Patreon, which, by the way, you can sync up with Spotify, or just about any iOS or Android app with a full VIP membership. You can customize the feed for individual shows and clusters of shows and themes. Go to pwtorch.com slash govip for full details on all the options to listen commercial-free. And with upper-tier options, unlock our

36:48 VIP-exclusive podcasts that run throughout the week every week. And if we look at the lay of the land of the women's division afterwards and what's coming up this week, they had a chance to avoid.

37:04 The title.

37:05 Swap, like New Day and Street Profits last time, they had a chance for Belair to win tonight and then on Thursday to have an exit strategy for the SmackDown title.

37:15 And they just chose not to take that route.

37:17 And so part of me was thinking, oh, they've created a scenario now where they can have, I guess, what Becky retain or. So if Bianca– no, Becky would lose to– who in that match is going to– is going to stay on SmackDown?

37:37 I haven't looked at my list in a while. Oh, Sasha.

37:39 So Sasha went to Raw too. Oh, Sasha did go to SmackDown?

37:42 Yeah, Sasha was on SmackDown.

37:43 So Sasha could win because they really stressed– I think it was on Friday's show– that you don't have to win by pinfall or submission. No person involved in the champ doesn't have to be involved in the finish. So I'm thinking they could have Sasha pin Bianca in a finish that doesn't really– matter that much because it's sort of pre-splitting up onto separate um well I guess it yeah yeah that that one that they wouldn't cross paths for a year but it'd be a breaking point they could do a callback on later and so Sasha would be champ and then and then you would end up with Bianca because she scored the one on Charlotte it wouldn't seem that bad you know for her to lose to Sasha especially if it's in a triple threat with

38:20 some you know not shenanigans but just sort of chaos in the moment and And so to me, I was like, okay, you know, I hadn't like mapped it all out, but I thought, oh, that's probably where we're heading. So the DQ finish with the chair kind of felt jarring to me because I'm like, okay, well, then the only thing they can do is trade belts or we're going to have a very awkward and confusing year where I'm watching SmackDown and I have to remember, oh, it's the Raw Women's title on SmackDown, which is, I don't think something they want to do for a whole year. But the belt swapping, you know, they did before. So I thought maybe they'll book themselves out of having to do that again.

38:49 That's why you call them the Women's Universal Championship and the Women's WWE Championship. I know. You just make it easy on yourself.

38:57 But then what if the Universal title is on SmackDown for men but the Universal title is on Raw for women?

39:02 I think that language is okay. i just you know yeah putting it on a show when you want to have drafts that's what makes it difficult i think we could work with that but you know whatever it's yeah also it's a step back ripley for finding a very good looking replica title um losing your luggage is the scariest thing like i traveled you know all over the last week i was like please don't lose my luggage please don't lose my luggage so i can only imagine but i'm glad they got that situated. And shout out to Damien Priest for having an extra pair of very tight leather pants that Rhea could wear to her match.

39:36 That's really cool.

39:38 Awesome. All right. Nick, back to you.

39:42 On the Arabia comment, I thought it was very funny that– Mustafa says, you're going to be in your hometown. He wouldn't even say it there. But if you look, yeah, I know he's going, you're going to be in your hometown and I'm going to beat you. You know, it was just jarring. But on the, whatever you call it, the placard, you know, for the matches that they put up, It had special time, 12 noon Eastern, 9 a.m. Pacific, 7 p.m. Arabian Standard Time. So they kind of snuck Arabian in on the time.

40:31 Okay. Oh, they did throw it in there tonight. Okay.

40:34 Yeah.

40:35 Okay.

40:37 And I think they just called it Arab Standard Time. But nevertheless, that's for the whole region. Um, Arab standard time. It doesn't mean it's not an actual reference to Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is named after Arab, which is also what the time zone is named after.

40:52 So I don't think that counts.

40:54 Well, regardless of how I feel or how Wade feels or how you feel, like clearly there's some level of, if not embarrassment, there's a level of caution from WWE in announcing where their show is. And like, you know, uh, I think Wade, you can tell the specific numbers. I don't know if you have them, but like, There was a significant drop off in network subscriptions when they announced the first show. Like this is not these aren't just things that we're making up because you think we feel one way or another. This is how like the mass audience feels about the show. And maybe it's patriotism. I think it's also, you know, patriotism be damned. It's also to a point that. you guys are giving them this,

41:36 this thing that we can't go to this thing that we can't see. Like there's a level of like personal selfishness that is involved in this. You know what I mean? Like this is a big, this is a huge show. You think I don't want to watch Roman Reigns and Brock Lesnar with all this intrigue? Of course I want to see that. But yeah.

41:52 Yeah.

41:53 Yeah.

41:53 And Nick's still trying to find a way to get a ticket. StubHub. Come on.

41:59 Yeah.

41:59 He was very funny. He said, I don't know where I'm supposed to fly. If I want to go to get it, see the show.

42:05 Uh.

42:06 the it just suggestion is you should put up a of a poll on a whether people are gonna watch and then if they're not gonna watch why because it because it's on i have a day and you can't see it or is it a political you know that this for information sake uh... otherwise i mean the show was okay uh... it it's raw it's you know it's you're kind of slogging through from 9.30 to 10.30, and then, you know, I thought... I mean, Charlotte and Bianca just, they put on a match. I mean, Charlotte's got, you know, cut her chin on something, and I thought, you know, it's just... I still think... She's doing well, but I think Charlotte still– I don't know. There's something about when she's talking that just is– I don't know. She's still

43:13 a little stilted or something, that she's just– Well, I.

43:17 Think– let me jump in. I want to get Cam's thoughts on this.

43:20 One, I've complimented Beller, so I want to get Cam's thoughts on her in particular and the– I guess progress is sort of loading it as it, because that's loading the question by saying it's been positive, but over time, how her, how her main roster character has matured or changed or been steered in different directions and what you think of where she is now. And then same thing for Charlotte, you know, there was a time when it seemed like that would be like, okay, with her just being a star and you can cheer or boo her and she'll be cock. This was Charlotte going for heel heat. And, I will, I'll disagree a bit with Nick if it qualifies as a disagree. Well, I don't know if it's a disagreement, but I would say that there's a difference

43:56 and an improvement because we don't hear her talking like this and going to the same cliches and trite comments. Um, I feel like I'm hearing from her, like it sounds more real to me when she talks and she's, I think there's a sense of believability to her saying, I'm, I am the opportunity. I've raised the level of the, of the championship. Um, I should have a bigger send-off. Like, I mean, I'm not saying it's not embellished and exaggerated for effect, of course, but I think everybody watching is thinking, you know, I bet she probably thinks that.

44:30 And that's good.

44:32 You know, you want, when you're watching, to get a sense that, hey, I know it's a work, but there's real rivalries.

44:38 These are real personalities. There's real egos.

44:41 A lot of times people on TV are portrayed the way that they are in real life, and some of that's enough sneaks on the air. And if you can, like, not contradict that on social media, I've been an advocate of that. You want to lean in on something that helps sell tickets on social media in terms of your personality and not just be super sweet and humble if you're Charlotte on social media. Like, I think people watch Charlotte and go, I kind of think that's her. And I don't really want to see her succeed. I want to see Bel Air succeed. And I think if you work the system, the modern-day system that includes social media, it can enhance and amplify– The storyline. And I thought that worked tonight.

45:17 What do you think, Cam?

45:19 Yeah, the best heels say things that are almost true. Like, almost true. I think when she came out and she was like, yo, Bianca gets a title shot the same week she gets another title shot. Like, yeah. Yeah. Who's entitled? Like, that was the thing. You call me entitled? Like, look at what she's doing. I also think she's produced to interrupt, but in a way that is still kind of credible. Like, yeah, I enjoyed Charlotte's contribution. I like that this is something you don't see a whole lot. I like it like Charlotte can wear her street clothes and Bianca can too before a match. Like, they're actually real people. Like, there's so many good things about what Charlotte does. But no, I'm a fan of her promo work at this point.

46:03 I like that she will stop what she's doing to interact with the crowd and be comfortable with it. Yeah, and again, I like that Bianca— Bianca hasn't totally changed what she was in NXT. Like, she was kind of a tweener in NXT. Like, she was kind of a better-than-you character. But no, I like that she can say, Charlotte, these are the things you could do to be in a better position, and Charlotte not receiving those things. I think Charlotte's on the money right now. And ever since she talked about being the opportunity, I think she's been at her best level, for sure.

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47:39 See you in the paradise! Nick, anything else you want to add before I move on?

47:50 Yeah, last point, and I'll let you guys discuss it after I get off, is while I didn't like the way the match was booked, I'm glad that Shayna is not going to have to wear a stupid crown around. As I said, I didn't like the way the match went, but I think it was keep the crown off Shayna. Let her... let her go to SmackDown and just kick everybody's ass and, uh, as a baby face. And, um, um, I'm good and happy with that. And with that, I will let you guys go. Cam, great, uh, great hearing you again and, um, keep up the great work. I, I, I really appreciate, uh, what you have to say.

48:40 Thank you so much. I really do appreciate that.

48:43 Thank you, Nick. Appreciate it.

48:45 Um, Yeah, so we'll take a moment here because this show is serving as our crown jewel preview also. The King and Queen tournament finals are set up. Nick brought up Shayna Baszler not being in the tournament. When you looked at the brackets at first, Cam, be honest, maybe we can check the tape here. Did you think Zelina Vega and Doudrop would be the finals?

49:10 No, no, no, no. And the biggest thing about that is like, they're probably going with the least established talents, as far as this goes.

49:19 Which you like because it gives a boost to the talent as long as they haven't been totally marginalized in a way that pulls the value of the tournament down. And I think that would be where the contention would be with this booking decision. But in a generic sense, what you're saying is, yeah, let's– maybe I'm projecting or saying what you're not saying.

49:39 You correct me if I'm wrong.

49:40 That the tournament, if it gives a boost to somebody who needs it, as opposed to giving a corny gimmick to someone who doesn't, that's a net positive.

49:48 So I'm looking at it right now. So Toni Storm was Women's UK Champ. Liv Morgan, Tag Team Champ. Carmella, multiple-time SmackDown Women's Champ. Natalya, multiple-time Raw Champ. Shayna Baszler... She was a two-time NXT champ. I don't think Dana Brooks had a title. So this one is a bit more forgiving, I guess, than the men's side. Let me see.

50:20 It's a bit more forgiving than the men's side.

50:22 See.

50:25 This is what I asked about, Wade, and somebody actually put me on game, and so I was wrong. But I wondered if Shayna was left out of the finals as a condition of her sexuality. I did openly ask that, but apparently Doudrop is in the same lane, for lack of a better term. I certainly don't mean any disrespect.

50:47 So it wasn't necessarily that. So it looks like they're just like, hey— We can produce two brand-new stars or one brand-new star and come back with somebody new. What's interesting is– and I don't know the numbers, but I feel like big event-wise, this is the least watched show. So making a new star on this show is super interesting.

51:08 I feel like there are more– There's machinations at play. I certainly don't want to project too far on things I don't have information on. But yeah, it's the only match, I think, on the card that features two people who have never been prominent on WWE TV. And I don't think maybe Zelina, but I don't think either of them have ever been on a main event of any show in WWE TV. So it's really interesting. It's an interesting pairing.

51:39 What.

51:40 Who do you think stands to benefit the most between Doudrop and Zelina Vega? Like, who is it a better fit for? Because I said last week, you know, Zelina Vega was initially kind of marginalized as, oh, she's just going to be kind of a loudmouth jobber. And it seems like either they are more impressed with her to put her in the finals, or they just wanted somebody lowly to lose to Doudrop. They didn't want Doudrop beating somebody, you know, who they have more plans for and I guess we'll find out Thursday which of those two scenarios is the case. Are they higher on her than we thought?

52:13 Or did they actually intentionally book somebody who is expendable? Because the idea is let's crown Dewdrop with the Queen's crown because they think it's– they know Dewdrop can work and she's distinctive. But she needs a little something extra. And so they want her to have the crown. The other option is just reverse it. Zelina is nasty but she's getting a push she uses underhanded means to win they protect do drop a little bit in in the sense that Vega uses underhanded tactics to win but Vega becomes the queen so there's a heel with the crown which is how they most often like to do it so yeah your question on my question to you is who benefits the most and then what's your prediction.

52:54 Shout out to Joel Pearl from Fightful.com who said, for shame, Cam, I told you since August that it would be King Jinder and Queen Doudrop. So shout out to Joel. It was me personally. I think that you– the ecosystem that WWE has built, they can produce a heel in a minute. Like they if there's one thing they can do is make a woman seem nasty. They're very good at that.

53:20 But I think that and a baby face who is genuinely over who the crowd cares about. I do think that they tend to lack the ability to do that. I think Doudrop when Doudrop came out last weekend was like, yes, queen. I was like, oh, OK, y'all get what's going on here. You're familiar with the times. I think that she's won a fantastic wrestler. Two, has a great personality. Three, has a unique physique that, you know, they don't always capitalize on.

53:53 I think you have a chance to make a star in a different way. I think that it's not necessarily her fault, Wade, but people decided that Nia Jax was hurting people. It's just something they agreed on. And so I think that has affected her ability to get over as a top women's star. Right. But I think that Doudrop has this unique ability to be in that same lane and cater to a larger portion of the audience.

54:18 And the biggest thing about her is she's really, really good. Like, that's the thing. I also think that she lasted way too long in Shayna Baszler's finisher. There's a way to like make her. That go by a bit faster. But no, she's good. She's good on the mic. They don't have a problem with pushing Scottish slash Irish talents. They feel like they speak good enough to the crowd and they relate. So, yeah.

54:46 So good on her, man. I think she's the one to go with. I think that in both cases, you go with the faces here. especially because you have Big E and Drew's faces, and you have Roman and Brock kind of both as heels. And so you can have these two big face wins and everything else kind of play out the way it does.

55:10 Before pushing play on the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Shows, check out PWTorch.com and our TV review section and skim through a full rundown of the TV show. If you didn't see it, that's your way to get an overview of of what happened before you dive into our in-depth analysis of the key happenings on the show. That's PWTorch.com, your home for live TV coverage every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday with my TV reports. And also check out our NXT and Impact coverage on Tuesdays and Thursdays, our Collision reports on Saturday nights, and of course our live pay-per-view and PLE coverage on weekends. All waiting for you at PWTorch.com.

55:49 All right, let's go next to Kyle in Baltimore. What did you think of Rod tonight?

55:53 What stood out?

55:54 Yeah, so it was a weird show overall. And with the women itself, with Bianca and Charlotte, it was a really good match. You know, I'm not a Charlotte fan, but I do. But I never count her in the ranks. She's really good in the ring, and Bianca is great. And I think that Bianca did well. But, yeah, and so...

56:15 I was actually was expecting like Becky to show up too, but because it was, and then one made sense, but that didn't happen. So, but, um, just going back to just crown jewel in general, I got to watch it because it's something I, I personally think is this, I can't deny this card really overall in the past. It is with the magic at Saudi Arabia. It's on paper and also when it would actually happen. So at least on paper, great matches on here that I can't deny that I definitely want to see. So I'm personally going to watch it. I'm going to watch it in 11. Anyway, so that's me. But yeah, it's just... I was just really confused with the whole tournament itself in general. The fact they still didn't have at least Liv Morgan and

57:01 Tony Storm to advance to the next round at the very least to establish them as... I view them as who could be top stars still very, very questionable to me still, because after looking at who was, even especially now that Shada was out of the tournament where people thought she was going to be part of the final two, it was also very puzzling. Has Zelina Vega part of this final two? It's just so questionable. I still don't know what was behind them doing it like that, booting off the two favorites, in my opinion, off this tournament.

57:40 It's being so bizarre. They kind of got the men's side right, but the women's are really very puzzling and questionable. That's my thought about that entire thing by watching this.

57:54 Kim, you want to respond to any of that?

57:58 I think that One thing that we run into are these premature draftings. Like I was literally thinking today when I was coming up with the idea that Xavier Woods was the only person in the men's bracket who had not won a singles title. I was like, wow, do you remember Aleister Black and Ricochet as a tag team?

58:19 Why did that exist? I think that. For whatever reason, they see these talents who are on the NXT roster and want to bring them up. But they bring them up prior to there being any real plans for them. Like Toni Storm was running NXT UK. She was cold. And now we just kind of have her losing to people who I don't want to say she's better than because it's always relative, but. These people have this pedigree and these records and they lose by hook or by crook.

58:49 So I agree with you. I think you don't put people in a tournament that you plan on being bigger. Like if you go back to those old King of the Ring tournaments, like back in the 90s, you can have a bunch of guys that were going to be future world champions. You had Steve Austin beating Jake the Snake Roberts. All due respect to Jake the Snake, but it was like along in the tooth Jake the Snake there's a way to do this that doesn't come across as silly but don't tell anybody this because they call me a WWE drone for reasons because people are tribalism or tribalistic but like NXT does this really cool thing where we know Daniel Garcia and Lee Moriarty are two of the best wrestlers in the world, but we don't

59:34 have them win a bunch of matches yet. We have them lose matches, really good matches, to unestablished people. WWE does not have, for lack of a better term, young boys. They have people they have us watch on their network win a bunch of matches and then they lose to people who lose a bunch of matches just because they're on the main roster. So I'm right there with you.

59:54 I think that you need to build these tournaments a bit better. It needs to stop being so top heavy because, again, the world is rooting for Xavier Woods. Xavier Woods, as a singles wrestler, is the least accomplished person in this tournament. And they're not drawing any attention to that. It's just supposed to be what it is. So, yeah, it's absolutely a problem in how these things are stacked up. I absolutely agree.

1:00:19 Kyle, anything else you want to add?

1:00:21 Yeah, so the, it was, what was it? It was the, is this the women's championship in general? Was it the whole, was Bianca Belair and Sasha and Becky in terms of like, And in my view, too, when it comes to Bianca, at least Sasha, too, with both of them, I view them as one of the same, somewhat they feel like they're... And, you know, and also Becky, in some degree, they all think they're the best, and they all want to be champions, and they all say that they're the best, but yet what Sasha and Becky are saying, it's not great to a lot of people in their brain, but how Bianca is phrasing it in her promos is a lot better.

1:01:03 It seems kind of confusing to me. I don't really... get that i think i don't know i find all three of them great so but a lot of people don't for some reason which i whatever it is i want to.

1:01:13 Understand what you're saying you're saying you don't understand what people like about what bianca is saying or you don't just clarify that for.

1:01:19 Me no i don't i don't like for because it seems to me for every time i listen to other other people about and doing during their review shows about bianca bella or sasha and And now Becky seemed like, well, really between Becky and, I mean, Sasha and Bianca is that I don't view what's so different between them, honestly.

1:01:44 I mean, she's like, because I view them as one in the same of how they're in their actions and in their promos and in how they're talking. It's like, it's not like it's one in the same, but how Bianca is saying it is how people are. People are okay with it, where Sasha is saying it, and why she laughs. A lot of people don't like that, and I personally find it hilarious what Sasha does anyway. She opens her mouth, I find it funny. But with Bianca, I feel like people just like her a lot, and don't really care that she calls herself the EST. I think that should be an arrogant thing, but she said it in such a likable way, which I still... It's such a weird, bizarre situation that I don't see... any

1:02:25 deference there. Cause I, like I said, I'm a fan of all, of all, I don't really, really don't see that to my face. So that's my situation with that. Yep.

1:02:33 All right, cool.

1:02:34 Kyle, we'll talk about that. Thanks for, thanks for the call. That was good here for me. Yep.

1:02:39 Okay.

1:02:39 I'll respond to that really quick. Yeah. I think Sasha might be the most gifted woman I've ever seen in the ring. Like seriously, like she makes up things on the fly that I've never seen. I think she's an incredible athlete, right? The only thing I'll say about Sasha is sometimes I think that her inflection comes across as forced.

1:03:03 I think that her tone and her delivery can sometimes miss the mark. And so with Bianca, I think that what Bianca's saying is a lot more naturally. I'm not sure how often we've heard Sasha's actual voice. And again, no shade. I think Sasha's so good in the ring. that any question I would have about her inflection goes away.

1:03:28 She's still A +. She's that good. But I think that even if the content is similar, I think Bianca just delivers it on a different level. I think that Bianca, Sasha, Charlotte, and Becky would be my top four. And I also think Shayna's amazing. But I think they'd be a step above Sasha as far as delivery of an actual promo.

1:03:56 But I would never deny how good Sasha is at literally everything else. But that's my thing. Even if the content is similar. I'm trying to think. Who's a really good white meat baby face? I don't know. Adam Page and Ricochet have the exact same content, but you'd rather hear an Adam Page promo. Because one of them has the proper inflection and timing and delivery. That's just what it is. So, yeah, even if the content is the same, I just feel like Bianca is able to deliver it in a more natural way. I would love to know.

1:04:35 I would love to talk to Sasha just for like 20 minutes to see what her natural inflection is and build.

1:04:41 Off of that. Whatever that weird laugh is, I could do without that.

1:04:46 I thought Friday– I wonder if she really laughs like that. But I think Bayley came a super long way from NXT to this heel promo because I think that this is more natural for her. Travis and I, by your blessing, Wade, Travis and I did Comic-Con in Austin a few years ago, and she did a panel, and I was like, oh, this is how Bayley talks. That's how she sounds. How good is this? So yeah, sometimes it's just about finding that natural reaction. I think Sasha's best work was her against Bianca. I think she had somebody who is more on her level, says things she'd probably say. But yeah, again, I'd love to hear how Sasha really, really naturally sounds and write for her based on that, for sure.

1:05:28 On Tuesday nights, the conversation doesn't stop when NXT ends. It's just getting started. I'm Nate Lindberg, and alongside my co-host Kelly Wells, we bring you PWT Talks NXT. We go live on the PWTorch YouTube channel about 15 minutes after the show to break down matches, storylines, and surprises. And we take your questions and comments from the live chat.

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1:06:05 Especially in WWE, but in general, the more natural somebody sounds, the more. I think the more effective they are. I, I, that, that applies to play by play announcers. It applies to color commentators. It applies to interviewers. It applies to managers and it absolutely applies to wrestlers from.

1:06:25 Top to bottom.

1:06:26 There's going to be, there's going to be times when a wrestler has a character and it just wouldn't be, wouldn't be right for them.

1:06:30 Is he Scottish or Irish? I don't know. I really enjoy the new backstage commentator. I think he's so good at what he does. I mean, he's so good. Um, Because he asked actual questions. He's very, very good. So it's literally not about where you're from or who you came up around. It's about are we getting you for sure.

1:06:49 And I thought Sasha on Friday sounded more like she sounded with Steve Austin, even though that was kind of, I thought, weird.

1:06:57 It was a weird performance on her part.

1:06:59 There were some awkward moments with Steve, which happened with Dean Ambrose too. And with Bel Air, I thought she was leaning– too much in Charlotte. Uh, even going further back was leaning too much on, on just kind of stilted, rehearsed sounding language. Like I'm reciting lines, but with a certain inflection, you expect that a wrestler would have in a promo or Bel Air, you know, it was, it was some of the catchphrases and Bel Air, when she's not in a WWE TV scripted environment is so naturally engaging that you just like, bring that onto the TV show, please bring that onto the TV show. And, Now, and Sasha on Friday I thought was closer to natural. She still did the weird laugh thing. But whatever, I don't

1:07:45 know what planet she was on earlier this year, you know, around WrestleMania time and stuff. I mean, I was uncomfortable watching her. I didn't know what was going on. And on Friday she seemed grounded and connected and authentic. And I just, I'm for that across the board with men and women in every role. Because WWE has a tendency to sound, you know, cliched and they lean on the catchphrases.

1:08:06 And it's often people reciting memorized lines. And it can be worse backstage than in the ring sometimes. Like Baron Corbin was pretty good in the ring and awful backstage for a long time. There was just something about not being live and it was a prerecord where the acting was just terrible. But he'd get in front of the fans and all of a sudden he just became more real.

1:08:24 And I get that. Some people, you know, you sit them in an empty room and say, record a podcast.

1:08:29 And they're like, I can't do that. But you put them in a room full of people and they say, let's just talk to this group and Some people would be scared, but other people, it's just going to be way more natural to chat and be at ease. So that would be just any time you can find a way to get somebody to sound a little bit more natural like you imagine they'd be in real life.

1:08:44 And then, of course, that's then when you tweak it and amplify it. That's fine. But you've got to have that foundation.

1:08:50 That feels authentic, like this is an actual person talking to me in a conversational way that sounds like a human being would talk.

1:08:59 Anyway, two things about. that. Number one, Rich and I went to WrestleMania Fan Access New Orleans a couple of years ago, and Baron Corbin was one of the people who got in the ring and spoke, and I was like, oh. He's actually good at this. He's really like a natural talking to people. Also, why is Steve Austin the greatest interviewer in the history of the world? Oh, my God. Like, he's so good. He cares. And that's the biggest thing about anybody who's listening to this. If you have a podcast or want to do a podcast, watch Steve Austin.

1:09:32 He has an actual affinity for the thing that he's watching. He has a love for what he's talking about. and who he's talking to, and it's just some of the greatest conversations I've ever heard. And by the way, he wasn't... Oh, go ahead.

1:09:44 No, I'm listening. Go ahead.

1:09:46 Oh, I was just going to say, remember what you were going to say. If you go back and listen to his first few episodes, he wasn't that good. I mean, he was reading off Wikipedia fact sheets. He seemed out of his element. So I say this as a credit to Steve. He worked hard to get better. There's something about and hard work and a dedication to getting better at the craft that you're doing. And Steve took it seriously, just like he did wrestling, both in the ring and on promos, just like he did marketing with his t-shirts.

1:10:19 When Steve sets his mind to something, he gets good at it. And if he has any kind of aptitude to get better, he's going to find a way to get better. So Steve wasn't just a natural. He just dropped him in and he was great. And I think that is more a credit to him because he worked hard getting better at that craft and i agree with you he is just phenomenal and i have i have after multiple shows over the last few years i've texted him and i've just said you're like really good at this like that was really well done and and i won't talk about well he was appreciative let's just say that.

1:10:53 He's next level at this point absolutely yes yes he's great to hear and it's like I just love the idea of somebody who has done the job caring about the job still. He's great. Absolutely. You can text him and say, Cam said he's great. Thank you so much. Well, yes.

1:11:11 He'll say, stop bothering me with trying to put your friends over. I don't know this guy. Why'd you waste my time?

1:11:18 I'm going to get, I can't wait for the Stone Cold and MJF podcast. It's going to be hilarious. Oh my God. That's nasty.

1:11:27 iPhone users, if you're listening to us on the Native Podcast app on your iPhone, you can unlock our commercial-free versions of our free shows by searching PWTorch in Apple Podcasts. You'll see a charcoal gray logo that says PWTorch VIP on it. Click on that. There's some free samples of VIP shows, and you can unlock the entire VIP lineup, which includes VIP exclusives plus commercial-free versions of the free shows by searching PWTorch in Apple Podcasts and clicking on the PWTorch VIP logo. and then activate your three-day free trial.

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1:12:00 It's that easy.

1:12:00 Enjoy a streamlined listening experience to our free shows and unlock all the VIP exclusives, including our post-pay-per-view roundtables, the Wade Keller news bulletins, everything with Rich and Wade, the fix that I host with Todd Martin, and a variety of other VIP exclusives. Just search PWTorch in your Apple Podcast app. We've been talking a lot about Charlotte. I want to go to an email I got up on the screen here from Zach in Texas. He said, well, WWE managed to do something I never thought I'd do.

1:12:33 Root for Charlotte Flair. I needed her to retain the title against Bianca Belair so that Becky could retain her title on Thursday. I know it's lame, but Becky and Charlotte swapping is the quickest way to get the belt Becky never.

1:12:46 Lost back around her waist.

1:12:48 It looks like that can happen now, and Becky and Bianca can continue their singles feud tomorrow. even though they squandered Becky's over three-year, nearly 1,000-day undefeated streak.

1:12:56 On Sasha Banks.

1:12:57 How come AEW can give a match featuring The Bunny 10 minutes, but WWE can't give a tournament final with Shayna, Baszler, and Piper Niven five minutes?

1:13:06 It's just shameful. I don't know if I'd.

1:13:08 Rather have a short match that I feel cheated on or a 10-minute Bunny match that feels eight minutes too long, but that's a topic for another day. Yeah, I mean, if you're rooting for Becky to, you know, like.

1:13:22 If you don't do a belt swap, then you have to have two wrestlers do jobs who.

1:13:27 In the way WWE presents their product, that can be a big deal when you're a top act and you don't do a lot of jobs. Kind of like you're pointing out with Baszler and the career for the clutch and being locked, you know, do drop lasting a long time in it. That counts for something. Like there's certain things in WWE that count, certain things that don't. And, you know, a top star losing doesn't lose very much.

1:13:49 generally is a big deal and people remember it. And if you try to get, because of the draft, you have a bunch of wrestlers start losing. I mean, like Roman Reigns is going to, they're going to have Roman Reigns lose twice just to try to reshuffle things in the draft. So like they protect people and fans generally know that whether they're explicitly thinking it or just sort of an undercurrent. So when you have someone like Becky, if she lost, well, they won't let Roman lose, but they're letting Becky lose.

1:14:14 So now that does in.

1:14:16 Sort of a meta way, bring becky down a notch and so by not by having as as zach's pointing out having charlotte win well lose by dq but not not not um win the title it or lose the title it frees up um wb to do the title swap rather than having also becky lose later this week.

1:14:34 Yeah i think that's a good moment like again i think if if we do a title swap like i think that's a a cool moment and that's hey we're gonna do a wrestlemania match a year or two from now and we'll put this in the video package Wade, in the last year or so, I don't know how often you've been outside the house. Have you seen a famous person in a mask that you immediately recognized?

1:14:54 Hmm.

1:14:55 I don't think I've been out of the house enough to see a famous person, but I think about it. I don't think so.

1:15:01 At Comic-Con, the Blade and the Bunny were there. They came by the booth. The Blade is the nicest guy in the whole world, by the way. He's super sweet. We talked for a while. But the Bunny is the person I was like, oh... I see your mask on, you're the bunny. She has the most distinctive look. I think it's how she parts her hair and her eyes.

1:15:21 Her eyes, oh yeah. That's the bunny. Yeah. Shout out to the bunny and Ruby Soho for tying Roman and Brock. That's super cool. But yeah, no, I don't all of a sudden root for Charlotte. I think that again, like I think it's going to be a straight up swap. I think that Bianca going into that match with the title would have been a bit of an overkill as far as what they want to do. I think that when you say your season premieres coming up next week, That's when you're setting everything up. Like, Bianca winning at WrestleMania was great. We had a bunch of people at the house. Everybody loved it. It was a fantastic match.

1:16:00 But I think that she's in that area where we want to see her chase. We want to see her eventually get it. Like, that's where the money is. And when we've talked about this, I've said it on the show, Vince McMahon has wanted an all-American black champion forever. Like, regardless of how you feel about anything, you just go by the books. You got Rock. You got Ahmed Johnson.

1:16:25 You got kind of a long-in-the-tooth Farouk. You got Shelton Benjamin. You got the first run of Bobby Lashley. Like, this is the thing that he's been trying to succeed in, and he found it in Bianca because people respond to Bianca like that. So I think there's a big thing in the chase. I think there's a great run that's in there for her, but She's had the title once.

1:16:49 I think they made a misstep in how they took it off her, but put her on a different show, replicate it. I think it works.

1:16:56 By the way, you mentioned season premiere of Raw next week. I want to defend Jimmy Smith a little. He said season debut, and I kind of was like, oh, God. It's season premiere. If you watch SmackDown, if you watch WWE over the years, it just drilled into you.

1:17:13 Season premiere, season premiere. They say it all the time every year.

1:17:15 So, It is a bit of a reveal that, you know, collectively, Jimmy Smith isn't as familiar with the product. Things don't roll off his tongue in a way that they should with someone real familiar. So now it sounds like I'm burying him. But let that go, Corey Graves. Like, I was super critical of Booker T. I thought he was just undercut the product left and right with boneheaded things over and over again when he was a color commentator.

1:17:35 He does it on panel shows.

1:17:37 And Corey Graves sometimes made me side with Booker T because he would be kind of nasty about how he'd correct Booker and try to show him up on the air. You know, and so I thought, you know, maybe, you know, Vince is yelling in his ear or somebody, you know, correct him at season premiere because Vince is such a stickler for that stuff. So I don't this isn't like again, Corey Gray sometimes is a vessel for someone telling him what to say.

1:17:59 So I want to have me like.

1:18:01 When they had him actively buried Dana Brooke a couple of weeks ago. Jesus, yo, she's been here all these years and she hasn't accomplished anything. I was like, yo, that ain't Corey's idea.

1:18:13 Wow. Yeah.

1:18:14 And And that was in response, I think, to, again, the instinct. Now you're getting me going down the throat. Of Jimmy Smith and his instincts not being there. And he said something to set up the match in a way that went against the story Vince wanted to tell. And so Corey had to overcorrect in a way that came across as heavy-handed. But it was, again, they put somebody inexperienced like Jimmy Smith on the air who wasn't familiar with the product. And when he wings it, he sometimes steps in it. And Vince is such a control freak about the story we're telling is this. Don't start improvising some other story we're not telling, especially if.

1:18:45 It goes against what I– if it.

1:18:46 If it undercuts the impact of the story we're trying to tell and well that's probably when you hire somebody who doesn't know the product really well and you don't you know get them warmed up on the product but when someone says season debut it's fine to correct them in a subtle plausibly deniable way by having Corey Graves go that's right Jimmy next Monday on the season premiere don't emphasize premiere just go next weekend on the season premiere blah.

1:19:07 Blah blah Like, you don't have to... Like, if Jimmy makes... I thought it was a good week for Jimmy Smith.

1:19:14 If he makes a bad mistake or doesn't do his homework or, you know, whatever.

1:19:19 I mean, there's times where Graves has been frustrated with him. And you can tell. And it was earned. This was petty.

1:19:25 And it made me sympathize with Jimmy Smith a little. Speaking of announcers, I have to apologize to Jim Ross. I was critical of him for saying that the patella and the kneecap are the same thing.

1:19:35 Because for years.

1:19:37 you know, I was, I was talking about Sting tearing his patella when he was on the rise in WCW. I thought the patella tendon was just a tendon, but no, the patella tendon is the tendon that's attached to the patella, which is the kneecap. And Jim Ross said the patella and the kneecap are one and the same. I said, worst gorilla monsoon and you need them. The patella is a tendon and the kneecap. They're not the same thing.

1:19:58 I Googled it. Google let me down or I didn't read it carefully, whatever it was.

1:20:01 It's my fault. So I want to run that correction. Jim Ross was right. I was wrong.

1:20:06 I wasn't as nasty. That's Corey Graves. But in correcting Jim Ross, I just said, where's Gorilla when you need him? Because, you know, Gorilla knew the anatomy inside and out. But I did want to run that correction. And I actually had somebody who works in, like, the medical field email and call me out on that very nicely. So just want to get that out there, Jim Ross.

1:20:25 I'm not saying I hate Jim Ross. What I am saying is when we went to the high spots table, because we were with Faye Jackson yesterday, And so like kind of, you know, skip the line and met RVD and Katie Forbes, who were very sweet. Katie Forbes actually came to our panel. RVD was in the middle of a text, but he still dabbed me up. Shout out to RVD. But there was Jim Ross and his dumb ass OU shirt. And of course, we were up 28 to 7 and lost. So Jim Ross, I don't not like you, but I certainly don't love you for you being happy and me being sad.

1:20:58 I didn't know where that was going, but yeah.

1:21:02 I always come home, Wade. I always come home. Well, no, no.

1:21:04 It was more like what did he do that made you genuinely not like him?

1:21:08 Like I thought he was grumpy or dismissive. No, it just had to do with that sport I don't pay any attention to because I live in Minnesota.

1:21:14 Very offended.

1:21:15 Yes, yes.

1:21:17 Also, that Cardona, bigger in person than you think. That's not television. That's a large man.

1:21:25 He's one of those.

1:21:26 He has that needless size. He's needlessly big. Because it never worked in his favor, and it actually cost him, I think, because WWE didn't want a guy that they didn't see as a serious main event act in the ring with people who were serious main event acts, making them look small. So he was counterproductively large.

1:21:47 In GCW, it really stands out because they have some good-sized guys, but he's different for sure.

1:21:53 Yeah, yeah.

1:21:56 Hey everyone, Greg Parks here.

1:21:58 You've probably heard me hosting Wrestling Night in America after pay-per-views, and also co-hosting the Tuesday Flagship with Wade Keller. I also host a VIP-exclusive podcast every week called Greg Parks Out Loud. In this podcast, I delve into a single topic for around 20 minutes, perfect length for one of your daily commutes or while walking the dog. A couple of my recent episodes included a look at TNA as they move to AMC, and WWE and AEW injuries for the year 2025. You can listen to VIP podcasts with a VIP membership on many platforms, including on Patreon, Spotify, the Apple Podcasts native app on iPhone and CarPlay, just about every popular iOS and Android podcast app out there, and even stream right from the ad-free PWTorch VIP website.

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1:23:03 Dominic emailed, Dominic T emailed and pointed something out that I think is worth drawing attention to. He says, I don't understand why WWE repeats the same mistake again and again. I'm talking about the timing of the show. I understand the show is live, but when I see Bianca Belair and Charlotte rushing to go home, it ruins a very good match. They can go home at 22.55 and finish the show with an angle. The announcer's hyping the next pay-per-view.

1:23:23 Something that is easy to scrap when they go too long.

1:23:28 Always like the show. Thanks, Dominic. I appreciate it, Dominic. I saw Bellerin.

1:23:31 I actually don't see this happen a lot. It seemed to me she was clearly getting a message from somebody at ringside about go home. And then she was having trouble with her braid getting in the way of a move she was setting up. And it did feel like we were getting sort of a window into. We're running out of time, hurry up. And it did feel like things were rushed. Usually I don't notice that.

1:23:51 And usually I think they're actually pretty good about timing out the show, but it did seem, and I have no idea whose fault that would be in this case. I'm sure it varies from instance to instance. Did you pick up on that at the end where Bianca kind of looked like she, when she was climbing the top rope, she was looking over at someone who was trying to send her a little signal about the timing of things.

1:24:09 That I did not catch. I did not see that. But it makes sense because they would literally finish. I think they finished two minutes after the hour. So, yeah. It was pretty tight. I'm watching it and I kind of lost track of time. Looked over. I was like, oh, it's 9.59. This thing is going to end pretty quickly.

1:24:25 What do you know?

1:24:27 All right.

1:24:27 So we're going to end there.

1:24:28 But we really didn't end there because Cameron Hawkins and I talked in depth about Chrome Jewel. And it was a little bit off topic from Raw. We just did a full rundown of the whole lineup. Had a couple interesting sidebar topics too, including our take on the Friday night AEW rampage versus WWE SmackDown ratings battle and the polarizing divisive reaction on social media with the tribalism taking over people's interpretation of what counts and what doesn't.

1:24:56 So what we're going to do is we're.

1:24:58 Going to make that part of tomorrow's Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast on our Blue feed, the main podcast feed, the Blue Logo Show. So if you're not subscribing to that, just look for that tomorrow by searching Wade Keller and subscribing to the Blue Logo Show. In addition to this, the Red Logo Show. Both pop up when you search Wade Keller in the Apple Podcasts app or anywhere else that you listen to podcasts. And you can also stream the shows directly from our website at pwtorch.com. So with that said, let's hear some final words here from Cam about how you can follow him more. And then we'll have the official Crown Jewel pay-per-view preview.

1:25:38 I guess it's a pay-per-view. You've got to pay for Peacock.

1:25:41 On tomorrow's Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast Tuesday Special Edition.

1:25:46 Cam, remind people again how they can find you on Twitter.

1:25:49 Absolutely. Twitter, Instagram, Seahawk. It's C-E-E-H-A-W-K. If you're somebody who's looking for videos on YouTube, find The Beauty of Blackness in Wrestling from Big Gold Belt Media. Myself, Kez, who wrote The New Day Usos Rap Battle. My friend Lovey, who creates wrestling-related jewelry. Retired wrestler Faye Jackson. Jay Rose, who's responsible for Paradigm Pro Wrestling on IWTV, and my man Chris, who created the brand Tiger Driver. So yeah, definitely check that out on YouTube. Great show. And if you want to go back a little bit, if you check out the August edition of PWI, Pro Wrestling Illustrated, you'll find an interview, me interviewing Alley Cat on her transformation to Alley Catch. So yeah, again, Wade, you've made

1:26:44 so many of these things happen. Things are coming to fruition. It's the coolest thing in the whole world. Yeah, thank you so much.

1:26:50 I'm always happy when people who volunteer, step up and volunteer to help in the torch. And it leads to really cool opportunities for them, bigger and better, or just different things than they originally anticipated. And their passion grows and their opportunities come one after the other.

1:27:08 And you are a prime example of that. And you have, I mean, whatever door I opened, you've made it happen. You have hustled and brought talent and perspective that people need. Want to hear more of?

1:27:22 Talk to Zach Haydorn. Zach, keep doing your thing, baby. You're making it happen. I love Zach. Glad I helped bring him into the fold. That's my guy.

1:27:30 Yes. And say hi to Jake next time you're at, like, 7-Eleven.

1:27:35 I'm going to put Jake in the head like, I love you, Jake. I got to pressure you a little bit.

1:27:39 All right. Take care, everybody. Thanks so much for listening.

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1:32:13 including some of my interviews with wrestling's top newsmakers in the 90s. And also our podcast library dating back to the year 2003. There's no larger, longer-spanning pro wrestling podcast library than that that comes with a PWTorch VIP membership. Now approaching 20 years of podcasting. Go VIP and dive into our post-pay-per-view roundtables, our coverage of some of your favorite eras of wrestling, top-name long-form interviews, and special format podcasts that we've done throughout the years. PWTorch.com slash govip.

1:32:45 We have a streamlined sign-up form, and you can pay with PayPal or directly with your credit card or debit card in one or two minutes. From right now, you can be a VIP member and diving into our library, pwtorch.com slash govip.