5 YRS AGO DYNAMITE POST-SHOW: Keller & Krol react to Cody being booed, on-site reports, Tourney Speculation

0:00 You hear us talk about ways to unlock VIP membership through your Apple account and the Apple Podcast app and also through Patreon or Spotify. To unlock a full VIP membership with full access to archives, an ad-free website, and customizable podcast feeds that are compatible with the Apple Podcast app and many iOS and Android apps, along with streaming ability right from our ad-free mobile site, go to pwtorch.com slash govip. That's PWTorch.com slash GoVIP. That'll give you all the details on everything you're missing out on by not being a VIP member. The whole array of VIP exclusive podcasts like the Wade Keller News Bulletins, our post pay-per-view roundtables, the fix that I host with Todd Martin, everything with

0:43 Rich and Wade, and an array of other shows with different hosts and different themes, along with unlocking our archives dating back nearly four decades. Nearly 2,000 Pro Wrestling Torch weekly newsletters. Over two decades of podcasts on demand dating back to the mid-2000s, starting with pay-per-view roundtables, hundreds of fascinating retro radio shows, including many that I hosted in the 1990s, and an ad-free website, exclusive content on that website only for VIP members, written and audio, and a lightning-fast, smooth, ad-free VIP mobile site for all of our content. Don't miss out on all the benefits. Treat yourself to a VIP membership. pwtorch.com slash govip.

1:22 Go all the way. Go VIP.

1:24 PWTorch.com slash GoVIP.

1:35 Now, PWTorch brings you the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show.

1:44 Five years ago this week on the AEW Dynamite Post Show, I was joined by PWTorch's Eric Kroll. We talked about Cody Rhodes... Getting booed. We tried to figure out why he was booed heavily and relentlessly by the Orlando crowd in his main event match against Malachi Black. Yes, this is when it was happening. Also, Kenny Omega's low-rent one-liners.

2:04 Hangman Page's weak follow-up to the previous week's stellar promo. Speculation on where the two tournaments were headed. MJS promo. Lance Archer landing on his head and whether the match should have continued. And more with live callers throughout. And then an in-depth conversation with two on-site correspondents with details on what happened with CM Punk, Tony Khan, and others after Dynamite ended. Archer's trip back after his injury, the crowd size, vitriol toward Cody, pre-show taping notes, and more.

2:32 So let's get to it. Loaded show here from five years ago this week. This actually originally live streamed on October 23rd, 2021. This was a special Saturday night edition of AEW Dynamite. Well, Eric, if WWE is really intent on getting Becky over as a heel, if Becky really wants to get over as a heel, I guess she could do like a reality show about her pregnancy. Maybe that would have helped because my God, did the crowd has a crowd turned on Cody Rhodes. It's not just a one city thing. Orlando all over that from the opening note of Cody's preposterously over-the-top ring entrance to every time he made a comeback and got fired up. And this is not what Cody wants, it doesn't sound like.

3:19 It sounds like he's still trying to, you know, stick to the idea of him maybe being a babyface. What's your take on what the heck's going on with Cody? I honestly, I mean, I didn't see this coming, even though I'm watching him and going, well, I'm not super surprised when I look at the crowd and I look at Cody and everything he's done, but I also just didn't see it coming.

3:39 I mean, we've seen against Malachi Black throughout this whole thing, Black has gotten more cheers than Cody. And so the question that I have going forward is, will fans cheer Cody again if he's just not wrestling Malachi Black? Who they like because he's cool as hell. He's got a bunch of tattoos. works a different style, you know, getting his shot when he didn't really get it before in WWE.

4:03 And so, but man, it was brutal. And the announcers just no-sold it, completely no-sold that Cody was getting booed throughout. WWE, as much as it drives me crazy, there's a reason they do the sound sweetening. And boy, tonight would have been a good time for Tony Khan to break that out just because that main event was an overbooked mess.

4:28 Yes, that's another issue. I don't think it's just Malachi Black. I mean, I think he's an accelerant to the fans turning on Cody, but I mean, I don't know how many heels Cody would be being booed against or being cheered against right now, because AW kind of has some cool heels. I mean, probably not MJF. Maybe that's what Cody should try next. Again, I'm just sort of I'm unsure, but my speculation would be part of it is he just kind of was in the Cody-verse for a while, you know, doing game shows and reality. And then, you know, there's the Brandy factor and, you know, the Bellwether fans who kind of set the tone for things, you know, they're the ones giving Brandy a hard time and sending her off, you know, with a huff on Twitter because

5:14 Brandy's being Brandy and So that adds to it. And then there's just these new signings that I think people like, Cody, thanks for starting this company. We loved you, but we like these other people more. I just think there's a lot at play, but him being sort of an absentee EVP top tier guy who wasn't putting in the work when everybody else was, I think at least that's a perception.

5:35 I think that laid the groundwork. And then you just have sort of Cody being a little unselfaware and oblivious about how grandiose and over the top he is about almost everything he does. And I always, it always seemed like To me, there was something teetering that could, you know, this Jenga tower of popularity Cody had, to me, sort of felt vulnerable. And I think it's showing that it is.

6:00 I mean, it's interesting. It's not bad for AEW. I mean, it might hurt Cody's ego a little bit. Hopefully not, because I think he's going to be a fantastic and effective heel, especially if Brandi's with him here.

6:11 He just he's clearly on record as saying he doesn't want to turn heel. He's the guy who does a lot of the charity work for the promotion. And he you know, it's it's it's hard to be the you know, if you're a baby face and you're going out and doing charitable work, it's it works a lot better than if you're the heel on camera. And then you're trying to, you know, visit a sick kid in a hospital.

6:34 You, by the way, Eric, real quick, you missed all the years where that was the excuse not to turn WWE into a red hot territory by turning John Cena heel. Oh, but the make a wish and the charity work like that was like a go to excuse, too, for not turning Cena.

6:48 I mean, I think I've heard Cody maybe even say that he doesn't want to be a heel because of his daughter. Well, let me tell you, as somebody with a couple of kids, the first two or three years, maybe four years of their life, you know. they're not really that hip to what's going on on national television.

7:06 So probably if you're going to be a heel, now's the time to do it, get it out of the way since the fans are forcing it anyway. And, and then you can, you can have a baby face run when your children are old enough to maybe catch some of your show on TV.

7:22 And they're not going to remember these years either. It's sad, but these, the first few years of every kid's life, it's important for raising them. I mean, you got to, you know, feed them well and treat them well. And, show them love, but they're not going to remember it. They're going to be who they are when they turn four, five, six because of the things you do in those first few years, but don't expect them to recall much of it.

7:42 So yeah, I think they'll be just fine if he turns heel. And by the way, you can smarten them up to the business pretty early, as they say, and let them know it's just for fun. And see this nice crib and these nice toys? That's because I went on a hot heel run and made a lot of money. Yeah, it's quite the scene. I will say one of the issues I have, though, is from a credibility of the company standpoint and the goodwill with fans. I don't know how much longer the announcers can ignore that this is happening because I think one of the issues that people have with WWE is they feel that the announcers aren't on their side as fans. They're on the side of feeding propaganda to them as dictated by Vince McMahon. And

8:19 if it seems like the announcers are now, you know, running from the reality and pretending it's not happening, I mean, I think fans are going to, I mean, AW should protect their brand more than they should work hard to protect Cody's ego. I'll put it that way.

8:32 Yeah, I think AEW fans almost always react how they're supposed to, right? I mean, you get Roman Reigns saying, oh, the reason they're so over is because the crowd babies them. Well, that's because they're putting on a good product. And so this is the– there was such– just watching this, it was such– there was such cognitive dissonance because this is supposed to be the culmination of a big story where Cody, the all-American babyface– is coming back to vanquish the bad, evil Malachi Black villain, and they're doing everything they're supposed to do in the match. For an.

9:10 Overwrought, overbooked match, yes.

9:12 Yeah, yeah, the Battle of the Ring Entrances match is what I dubbed it. And then at the end, the fans are reacting to the exact opposite of how they're supposed to, and nobody's selling this. The announcers aren't. Cody's not. But the go-home shot is they just piped that music in as loud as they could because I assume the fans were booing like crazy, right? But they had Cody's theme song drowning it out. The great cognitive dissonance that was caused tonight has to be a wake-up call to Cody and Tony Khan. It's like– I mean maybe you get– if you're Tony Khan and you really like Cody and he's one of the guys who helped found the company– you get, okay, Cody, you get one more shot to get over as a baby phase and then we

9:59 got to turn you heel if this doesn't work and and in the short term it looks like they're setting up a tag team match for the pay-per-view of cody and pock versus malachi black and andrade which okay fine i guess i you know uh but that's that's just delaying the inevitable i think for uh for a Cody heel turn.

10:19 They're good.

10:19 They're going to have to have that come to Jesus talk in the, in the locker room or the office and sort this out.

10:26 Yeah.

10:26 It does. I mean, does it help or hurt that Cody got his redemption tonight? He pinned Malachi black. I think it hurts. I mean, now if you're getting booed and the company is trying to like pretend it's not happening in front of our very eyes and ears, and then you win against a guy who's really popular and that's supposed to be, you know, Shivani says he gets his redemption and, I mean, I think it actually just it's not like the wrong booking move. I just facts are facts. I think that hurts Cody. Now he's putting himself over somebody who fans like more than him and they see him as that. And that's one of the dangers of billing him in the in the confines of the show as an EVP.

11:05 Yeah, AEW has not really faced this before. I mean, if they did, I don't recall. And it's certainly not in this major of a way. And so one of their big selling points is we give the fans what they want. Well, what the fans want is not Cody as a baby face. So what are you going to do?

11:22 Well, what we're going to do is introduce the show. This is the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show for Saturday, October 23rd, 2021. And I'm Wade Keller, the host of the program, the host of the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Shows following Raw, Dynamite, and SmackDown each Monday, Wednesday, and Friday night, barring preemptions of wrestling shows, in which case we move to a new night like tonight for the last Saturday Dynamite for a while here. And I am also the founder and editor and publisher of the Pro Wrestling Torch weekly newsletter and the website PWTorch.com. I also host a bunch of VIP podcasts just for our favorite people in the world, the VIP members who support us through their PWTorch VIP membership, including the Daily Wade

12:04 Keller Hotline. And by the way, tonight I'll have a lot more on that Charlotte Becky Lynch backstage argument and incident and put that in context if you've been listening to me carefully on these shows recently. You will know that I have been foreshadowing, um, eventually the reporting out there catching up to the reality that Charlotte is not at all well liked among her peers behind the scenes and is a growing problem. I will get more into that, um, in, uh, the way Keller hotline tonight for VIP members with, uh, some kind of, uh, semi blow by blow details of, of what went down in the reaction to a locker room and also be reviewing dynamite start to finish in case you missed the show. And you came here for analysis,

12:47 but you want to catch up on the full details of the show, because I know a lot of you have plans on Saturday nights and might not have had a chance to see it. So besides Weight Killer Hotline, I also host The Fix with Todd Martin and Everything with Rich Fan and post-pay-per-view roundtables, which we've been doing since 2003, following WWE TNA, Summering of Honor, and now AEW pay-per-views also. The other voice you hear is Eric Kroll, a former Pro Wrestling Torch newsletter columnist and now a frequent contributor to PW Torch daily cast post shows and some VIP shows. Eric, welcome back to the co-host chair.

13:24 I appreciate you filling in. We had late substitution, mostly due to my poor planning, but likely host who then ended up not making it, and I just didn't confirm he couldn't make it in time. So we scrambled, and you were like the 12th choice, only because you were on just two weeks ago, and I like to spread people out at least three weeks. But you are my first choice, of course, always.

13:41 Eric, welcome.

13:43 Well, thank you, Wade, for having me and that really, really bad intro.

13:48 I am so old.

13:49 How old am I? I am so old that apparently I used to fax my columns into the torch back in the day because email hadn't been invented yet.

13:58 That is, yes, that is true. Eric, thank you. We have a decent amount to talk about on tonight's show. I know they don't put everything out there on Saturdays, but I thought this was a newsworthy show. I do hope Lance Archer's okay. That was scary, Eric.

14:12 Yeah, I think if I'm AEW, I get it. Lance Archer wants to go in and finish the match and just go to the finish. They should have just stopped the match and awarded it to Eddie Kingston. I'm guessing that was the finish anyway, because Archer was on offense most of the match, so I assumed Kingston was going over.

14:32 I don't think it really matters, because whoever was going over is losing to Bryan Danielson in the semifinals. And Just I mean, you know, we saw in New Japan, Kota Ibushi landed wrong on a Phoenix splash and dislocated his shoulder and they stopped the match.

14:50 Right.

14:50 It was an anticlimactic ending to a big tournament. It just it was scary that Lance Archer came in and then there was a roll up. I mean, it reminded me of Steve Austin and Owen Hart when that happened. Obviously lower stakes.

15:04 But yeah.

15:07 What did you think? Should they have just stopped it right there?

15:09 Oh, yeah.

15:10 I really do. I mean, the fact is, is Archer on his own rolled to the floor, and then the doc checked on him, and Archer on his own rolled back into the ring for the roll-up. Absolutely, it had flashbacks to Austin and Owen. The match just wasn't high-stakes enough. And if you want Kingston to advance in the tournament, just call it off. Lance Archer's unable to continue. I actually think that protects him more. than having him get rolled up, although neither matters that much. I think everyone is just, you know, it breaks the suspension of disbelief, the immersion and the illusion of the competition when somebody, you know, has that kind of landing, not only from a concussive impact on his skull, but the impact that

15:51 reverberates on a neck when you hit at that angle with that kind of body weight behind him. Nobody is concerned at all if they just call off the match. That's fine. And, you know, I mean, he'll be fine. If he's physically fine, his character will be fine coming back. Stuff happens. I'm not sure he needs to be doing that move, by the way, but that's a whole other thing.

16:11 You know, sometimes because you can doesn't mean you should. And I don't know how much at this point there's a novelty of seeing, you know, back when Bam Bam Bigelow could do it. It was like, whoa, no one his size has ever done it. But just wrestle your body type. And he's got so much going for him. He doesn't need to be showing off with that kind of stuff. But accidents happen, and they happen to people who are doing moves in their normal moveset who are smaller than him. But that was rough looking. So to circle back, just to be clear, I don't have a huge problem because it was Archer initiating everything. But I have a problem trusting somebody who hits their head that badly to make prudent decisions about their health, especially if

16:53 they're worried about looking bad on TV or letting someone down. or their ego. And that's why ultimately, if I'm Tony Khan, I'm on the headset saying, call off this match now. I do not take chances. I don't, you can't fall back on what Lance Archer said.

17:08 It was okay.

17:09 Even though I sort of was the fact that he physically could roll out of the ring meant, you know, there's, he wasn't paralyzed, you know, like they're not moving somebody with, with an obviously broken neck and he was on his own moving, but I still say override that and stop it right then and there and make that the policy.

17:24 It's just not worth it. Not to Yeah.

17:27 I mean, I think we, this is the second time this has happened. It was at, um, Sammy Guevara who was feuding with Matt Hardy.

17:34 Yeah.

17:34 Yeah.

17:34 That Hardy fall looked, you know, even worse. Um, and, and they, they have their excuses for why they did what they did, but just, you know, if, if, if disbelief, as you pointed out, if, if disbelief, uh, has already been broken anyway, because of what happened and everybody's gasping, um, it's okay to just end the match because the roll-up doesn't really do anything to protect you at all.

18:00 Right, yeah.

18:02 Your time is valuable. Go VIP and listen to our shows commercial-free. A nice streamlined listening experience. pwtorch.com slash govip for full details on a commercial-free listening experience. And with a full VIP membership, you can create custom feeds for individual shows or groups of shows by theme. and also unlock nearly four decades of archives and access our ad-free website with VIP exclusive content, pwtorch.com slash govip. Your time is valuable, and that's one of the reasons we offer VIP membership, pwtorch.com slash govip. All right, well, let's get to phone calls. We had a low caller quantity last Saturday night. We have a higher one tonight, including... our on-site correspondent who is standing by. But first, we're going

18:55 to continue to discuss the show with a caller from the 513 area code. You are up first. 513, go ahead and state your name and where you're calling from.

19:05 Hey, Wade.

19:06 Hey, Eric.

19:06 My name is Micah, and I'm from Cincinnati, Ohio.

19:09 Hey, Micah.

19:09 Thanks for calling. What did you think of Dynamite? What stood out?

19:13 I loved the show. I'm with Eric. we went to dynamite, uh, in Cincinnati back in September and the crowd was so loud that, um, you really couldn't hear the entrance music. I remember, um, Malachi black, uh, facing Dustin Rhodes and there was just, it drowned without so bad, the crowd drowned out the music so bad that we couldn't even hear like Malachi's entrance. So, um, uh, I'm just agreeing with Eric saying like, I'm surprised that you could, you know, hear Cody over that. So, uh, three quick questions I have for you guys. Um, I can either ask them one at a time or, okay.

19:48 So yeah.

19:49 Um, do you guys, uh, a couple of weeks ago, wait, you were talking about how Daniel Bryan or Brian Danielson, excuse me, um, could stay in the title picture. Do you guys think that he wins the eliminator tournament?

20:02 Eric, what do you think looking at the lay of the land, including what they've done so far in it?

20:06 I think he loses to Moxley.

20:08 Um, And.

20:11 Probably– I guess for a couple reasons. One, Mox– I'm assuming Page wins in Minneapolis next month at the pay-per-view. I'm assuming that's what's going to happen. And so if that happens, you do not want to set up Hangman Page to fail. You would– which is– Brian Danielson would be probably– over pretty big as a face, and it's just the psychology would be off. It's just not the way to go. And the other thing is, when they were both up at the top of the ladder, Moxley was the last guy with the chip hanging and the title shot at stake. Moxley was the last guy, so he has sort of a natural feud pending with Page, assuming Page wins. If Page.

21:02 If Kenny Omega retains... Then you're going right to Bryan Danielson and Kenny Omega in another match that's probably going to be on TV because the next pay-per-view is far away. I don't know. They're going back to it pretty quickly. So those are my thoughts. Wade, do you think Danielson's going to win the.

21:23 No, I think you make a good point. I threw to you in part because I don't have a real strong sense of it. Who else is on the list of your possibilities, Eric?

21:33 I mean you look at that bracket and it's clearly either– it's going to be a Danielson-Moxley finals, right?

21:39 Yeah.

21:39 That's the thing.

21:40 They're not losing to any of those guys, right? To any of those guys.

21:44 Yeah.

21:44 He's not losing to 10 and then he's not losing to– who would he face? Orange Cassidy in the semis then on that side of the bracket I think because it's Eddie Kingston and Danielson on Dynamite next week. So it just– Yeah.

21:59 Yeah.

22:00 It seemed like everybody instantly went to that's obviously the finals because they didn't overload it with stars. They put guys like 10 and Dustin Rhodes who who maybe don't necessarily belong in a title shot.

22:14 I think before tonight, Archer would have been, you know, especially if Hangman wins might have been in the conversation. But to me, I just the way that Danielson can do so much in this playground right now. And if Hangman wins, for the reasons you said, I just don't think you want to go there and make the fans choose between the two of them. And Danielson has so many stories you can tell with him that people are going to be interested in that don't need a title.

22:39 And Moxley, I mean, what'd you think of his promo tonight, Eric? Was that, I mean, if you're fighting for your daughter and you go from, I don't care about winning the tournament to the end, I'm going to win it for her. It was an interesting journey he took us on and he does seem to have a little bit more of a feisty edge to him, but I don't know if that counts or, As a heel turn, I don't know if they could turn him heel. Maybe he's excited by seeing Becky try to go against the grain of popularity.

23:05 But maybe Moxley gives Hangman some hardcore edge, a little more grit if he's able to defend against him successfully.

23:12 I don't know.

23:13 Your thoughts on that?

23:14 I mean, my notes say not a heelish promo, right? I mean, he's talking about his daughter and looking in her eyes and she's grabbing his horribly comically mangled pinky.

23:23 Although some people think talking about your kid too much turns you heel. You know what I mean? Like, you know, I don't care about anything but my kid. It's like, I mean, that's great in the real world, but in pro wrestling, that can get you in trouble sometimes.

23:34 Yeah.

23:35 I mean, some of the promo, I assume, was too meta for you, Wade, because he talked about he doesn't care about ratings and Twitter and all that, and I know you tend to hate that stuff.

23:42 No, no, it's all context, and there's nothing wrong with that. That's just... I don't like it when it, I don't want to get a whole sidebar, but, like, you can acknowledge that you don't care about any of the stuff going on around you, all the stuff that all his colleagues seem to be talking about in this war. That doesn't break Kay Fabin in any way. It doesn't take away from the immersiveness of him. Like, I don't like when, you know, like, I just don't think it's, if it doesn't serve a purpose, don't do it. To reference, you know, catering over and over, which gets tired and cliche. Or, you know, talking about wrestlers being EVPs but not explaining a context to it. And there's more egregious examples out there. But,

24:18 I mean, Moxley's brand is, you know, he's not on Twitter. He doesn't care about all this other stuff people are doing about it. It was part of him saying, you know, kind of sending the idea that everyone backstage is buzzing about all these things. I just care about my daughter, and therefore I need a win to bring, you know, the money home and succeed for her. So I was okay with it in that context. I think it's a little more nuanced than binary for me when it comes to that kind of thing.

24:41 I think Mox's character since he entered AEW at the double or nothing 2019 pay-per-view and the big surprise at the end, he attacked both Jericho and Omega and he has, his character has never been white meat baby face, right? I mean, he's always, it really just depends on who he is in the ring against. And for the most part in AEW, he's been in the ring against heels.

25:04 And so he's the more sympathetic, likable guy. You know, I guess you, It doesn't need to be as radical of a personality shift because Mox is positioned where he just needs to shade a little bit to the left or a little bit to the right, and he can be the subtle heel or the tweener in a match.

25:24 Yeah.

25:25 I'm a little worried about Hangman being against somebody who is not a full-fledged heel, and it's sort of like, pick him. Do you really want to put Hangman, if he wins a title, on that course?

25:38 Yeah, I mean, I was worried about that until I saw what the fans were doing as Hangman and Mox were the last two guys. And they didn't like Mox getting in offense on Hangman. They were booing that and they were cheering Hangman when he was getting offense in on Moxley. And so I think if you were looking, if they are going to pulling the trigger on Page as their champion, babyface champion, you know, How would you want to firmly establish him as a real force and an actual champion and not a fluke? Well, you put him over two of the biggest stars they have in the promotion from the get-go, which is Kenny Omega and Jon Moxley. That would show you he's on the road to being a strong champion.

26:22 Yeah, and that's the positive side of it. Admit it, you love Nick Barbatti when he co-hosts with me on the Wade Keller Post Shows. Well, now you can listen to him every week on the Nicky's Club, a VIP exclusive podcast. Here's Nick to tell you more.

26:35 Hey, wrestling fans. It's Nick Barbatti, and I'm back with the Nicky's Club, the place where the family of Nicky's comes together for big laughs and sharp takes on WWE. From WrestleMania rumors to surprise returns, I got you covered. The Nicky's Club, where the wrestling feels like the coolest club in town.

26:49 Nick Barbatti wants to be part of your pro wrestling life every week, so... why not let him go VIP PW torch.com slash go VIP for full details on signing up. We're compatible with Patreon, Spotify, Apple podcasts, and just about any other iOS or Android app out there. You can also stream directly from our ad free VIP website, the Nikki's club waiting for you every week at PW torch VIP.

27:15 All right.

27:16 Um, me come back to you.

27:17 Yeah, I agree.

27:18 I think that, um, you know, you don't want to have a face-to-face matchup between, um, hangman and, um, Daniel Bryan. So quickly, I keep calling him Daniel Bryan, Brian Danielson.

27:30 Um, but.

27:32 By the way, I've given permission to everybody. I've given permission to everybody in the world. If you get it wrong, you can correct it and move on. And no one's going to hold it against you. Cause we're going to be doing that for years. So you're fine.

27:42 Got it. What did it again with Dean Ambrose? Cause I watched the first control sessions with, uh, Seth Rollins this morning.

27:48 Oh, funny.

27:49 Uh, John Moxley.

27:50 Yeah.

27:50 Uh, So, yeah, John Moxley, you know, makes sense. You know, he's close to a heel, I guess, in that tournament. That makes sense. I'm honestly surprised as we're talking about it, like, that, like, Adam Cole isn't in that tournament. And, you know, what would it look like if Page wins the title from Omega and then, you know, Adam Cole would have won the tournament and then go on to face Adam Page because I would love to see that match. But going on to my second point, I would– if you guys were booking the show differently tonight, who would, like– would you have had Malachi go over? Because, like, it was clear as day that, you know, he should have, and they were, you know, the crowd was for him, you know,

28:25 even though that he's, I guess, booked as the heel in this scenario. And I know you guys are talking about that at the top of the show, but, like, how would you guys have booked that differently?

28:33 Eric, what do you think?

28:36 I wouldn't have made it such an overbooked mess. I mean, at one point, they're both outside... Malachi and Cody are outside the ring. They're both. Blading or getting natural juice. I think in the case of Cody, he was blading. In the case of Malachi, he may have had the natural juice. So there's double juice.

28:56 Everything just kind of grinds to a halt and the match kind of breaks down. Art is in the ring for some reason. I don't know if he was too early on his cue, kind of wandering around with his with the get the Glock obnoxious chance. The crowd tonight sucked. I did not like the crowd at all. Andrade comes wandering down like he's got all day. Arne gets the mist from Malachi Black. Then Pac comes down to brawl with Andrade. And this is just after Lee Johnson and Brock Anderson took a chair away from Malachi Black and left.

29:29 So good Lord in heaven. I mean, so how could you have booked it differently? I think, I mean, if you put, black over your burying Cody and you would have had to have been prepared to turn Malachi black face.

29:47 Right.

29:47 I mean, and give the crowd what they want. I mean, it's not just that they want to boot Cody. It's also that they want their cheering black. And so you would have had to do that. I mean, you got to turn him. black face but then you've got to turn cody heel in the same match i mean i guess the fans already sort of turned cody heel you could have you could have leaned into that i suppose but cody doesn't want to be a heel so.

30:08 How dusty roads would it be eric for cody and black to end up on the same side because some heel team that you know jumps out and attacks them and they they fight to mutual respect and then you know some heel team comes out and beats up cody and black sitting at ringside runs in and saves cody and now they're the kita and dusty together at last.

30:27 Well, if they were to answer Micah's question, that's how you would have booked it differently tonight, I suppose. You'd have been Cody leeching off of the hot act or one of the hot acts in AEW's babyface heat. And I would have laughed because I'm old enough to remember Dusty doing it all the time in the 80s in the NWA. So there you go. There's your answer.

30:52 And I think, you know, Cody, I think fans are picking up. perhaps consciously or subconsciously on Cody using all the shortcuts, you know, like just go have a fricking match. Look at what Brian Danielson's doing, you know, just, just go and see him punk. Just go have a match. Like, why do you need to bleed every time? Why do you need to have all the run-ins? Why do you have to have these convoluted storylines with Arne Anderson stumbling around the ring and falling off the ring apron? And it's just like, just go have a match, keep it simpler, strip it down. And so I don't think that's helping.

31:24 I mean, I don't think a loan would cause fans to turn on him, but, I think there's a sense of it's just like, you know, one shortcut after another. It's just the bag of tricks is pulled out for him every time. And, you know, the bleeding is a little much. And I don't know, you know, save it for when it counts, not to try to make up for what you might be insecure about in terms of, as we see in, you know, Rose to the Top, Cody with his back issues and his pain and all that.

31:45 If he just doesn't feel he can go, I think some of these shortcuts and distractions are hurting more than they're helping.

31:53 Yeah.

31:55 I mean, this is how Cody's booked his matches since day one of the promotion right i mean it's just always been the case ever all of the big matches are uh are overbooked i wondered why the like the build-up on this match is rushed because they just did last week the promo where you know the skit where cody is um doing the apollo creed uh rock helping rock train rocky balboa and then You think you would need a couple of weeks to let that play out of Cody rebuilding himself, but they just rushed it. I thought this could have been at the pay-per-view, and then I see what the reaction of the fans were tonight, and the light bulb went over my head. Oh, that's why they didn't see this for the pay-per-view.

32:33 Yes, yes.

32:37 Oh, you know, there's been comparison between Cody and Jeff Jarrett when he was running TNA, and debunking is too strong a word, but there's certainly differences between them. Todd Martin covered that, I believe, on a recent Fixed Mailbag on the VIP side of things several weeks back. But Jeff would always book overwrought finishes, too, like just needlessly complex and convoluted series of run-ins and distractions and all that leading up to the finish. It just became kind of a joke, too. And there's, you know, it adds to the ledger of Cody is more, you know, Jeff Jarrett along with a sprinkle of Triple H than, you know, he is what I think he hopes to envision himself as being. as earning the reputation for being different than them. Micah,

33:21 back to you. I know you had a third point.

33:23 Yeah, just last question. And do you guys think this loss hurts Malachi Black? I know this is his first loss since being in AEW. And once he gets away from Cody, where does he go from there? And I wanted to thank you guys for taking my call. Also, Wade, when you guys were at the top of the show, you were talking about the the heat was Charlotte, uh, backstage.

33:48 My wife was like, that's shocking. And I just laughed really, really loud. So, uh, thanks for taking my call.

33:54 Appreciate it, Micah.

33:55 Thanks.

33:55 Yeah. Appreciate it.

33:57 What's that?

33:58 Uh, just appreciate how you guys do. And, uh, thanks for taking my call.

34:01 Great.

34:01 Thanks.

34:01 Appreciate it. Yeah. Um, good call. Uh, yeah, that, that crossed my mind. Eric watching it is as the ref counted three, I'm like, Oh man, I mean, it's Cody and You want clean jobs, and I'm not a big fan of everybody who comes in being undefeated. They mentioned that with CM Punk earlier. It's like you don't have to be undefeated to be good. In the NFL or NHL, you don't have to win everything to still have a shine on you. And sometimes a loss can propel you.

34:30 It can be used to trigger some new intensity level. You know, I was kind of hoping for that with Drew McIntyre on SmackDown last night. Instead, they decided to ignore that Big E beat him and have him just, you know, show up as if nothing happened. And I'd rather have that be a story that gets integrated and weaved into the show. So you're rewarded for, you know, investing in the match and that the outcome matters. So for me, they have a chance to do that with Malakai Black here. You know, Malakai lost. And how does he react to that? That should be interesting, not something that makes you less interested in him, Eric.

35:07 So I'm trying to parse this in my head because the psychology is all messed up because black is the heel, but he's being cheered as a baby face. And so we're black, the heel, we're black viewed by the fans as a heel. Well, strong heels take losses all the time, right? They lose the feud in the end because generally speaking at wrestling, really good booking is to have the top baby face go over the top heel. I mean, Rick Rude lost most of the feuds he was ever in, but he maintained his heat, right? And so but but black is the face here. And so I'm trying to work out in my brain here live. Does it not?

35:44 Does the loss not hurt black because he is loved as a baby face, even if he wasn't booking him that way? Does does he does the loss not hurt him because of the weird reverse psychology that's going on in the sort of backwards backwardness of the whole situation?

36:01 It's next-level coverage that you come to expect from the PW Torch brand. No AI, no rookie perspectives, no unfounded rumors, no clickbait, no deceptive headlines, just high-quality writing, breaking news, and fascinating flashbacks every day at pwtorch.com. Pull yourself away from the vacuous social media experience that I know many of you regret once you get lost in it for minutes, if not hours at a time, and settle in for high-quality PW Torch-branded wrestling coverage. All right, let's go to our next call here. Looks like, I believe, Ashley in Virginia is up next. Ashley, is this you?

36:40 It is.

36:40 Can you hear me?

36:41 Yeah, sure can. Thanks for calling. Good to hear from you again. What did you think of Dynamite tonight?

36:45 Hey, thank you.

36:47 So just a heads up, I'm actually in the parking that leaving the show now, so if I cut out, I'm so sorry.

36:53 Oh, sure, sure.

36:55 So you attended tonight?

36:56 Yeah.

36:58 Yes, I did.

36:59 I did.

37:00 It was the first show here in Orlando.

37:03 Yeah, I'm sorry.

37:03 I caught the show a little bit late. I'll call into you guys a little bit later. But I think I just caught on to you guys. You guys were just talking about Cody and Malachi Black, right?

37:11 The main event?

37:12 Yeah, yeah.

37:13 Yeah, the fans? I mean, I'm sure... it came across on tv but man they everyone was just ready and thinking like this was going to be like a double turn almost tonight and i don't know how clearly they came across but it got vulgar at times some some sections were chanting um fu cody uh go back to tv and just got a little crazy there for a second not feeling like orlando like a like a chicago or new york uh town but It.

37:44 Was something else.

37:45 I was calling to see what you guys thought about, yeah, where kind of Cody goes next and Malachi as well, just because they didn't do the double turn tonight, which I personally didn't think they would, just because I figured they could, you know, drag.

37:58 Us out more.

37:58 But what do you guys think?

38:00 Cody goes from here.

38:01 Does he, like, kind of take some time off? Does Malachi, like, end up turning face after all this? Because it was a pretty strong reaction for him tonight.

38:09 I think it's worth, if you're Tony Khan, reassessing one or both based on everything, but especially tonight in the crowd reaction. You know, like you said, Eric, you might maybe give Cody one more chance against a less popular heel. And you at least create, and I think it's an astute point, you know, it's fair. Hey, Cody, we match you against somebody who fans just really like, and maybe the booking wasn't the strongest in how we approached it.

38:33 We'll give you one more chance, and, you know, whoever's next form we'll see. And I'm interested to see who that is. And if you have ideas, Eric, mention them. As far as Black goes, I mean, I think you ought to turn him babyface. I mean, like, Malachi Black against MJF, like, jumps out his money. Malachi Black against Ethan Page with Dan Lambert or, I don't know, even rattle off a few other heels. Like, they've got some good choices where, you know, Malachi's that no-nonsense, kick-ass guy who just shuts up people who can't stop talking. So to me, there's some, like, real potential there. Eric, your thoughts?

39:09 So I think it's– for Malachi Black, it's the flip side of Cody. Do you give Cody one more chance? I don't know who the heel would be he would wrestle. I was thinking– I was remembering Tony Khan's notebook that they caught at the Jaguars game, and he, uh, Miro was one of the potential, uh, people to wrestle Cody. Well, that's not going to work as Miro, uh, generally gets cheered. Um, uh, so yeah, I don't have a heel in mind that would be Cody Rhodes's stature, uh, you know, place on the card to, to go against.

39:40 But a lot of people are paired off, you know, like Adam goals being paired off with, with Sammy Guevara and, um, you know, Ricky Stark's headed to see him pop. Like, I just think, In a way, it's slim pickings for Malachi if they want to change course and book him against a heel and turn him face, because they've planned out everything for all their top heels, barring an injury.

40:00 They'd have to reshuffle some things, and is it worth doing that as an audible if it costs something else that's already in motion?

40:08 Yeah, the path of least resistance with Cody is to turn and heel, because you get a whole bunch of fresh matchups. malachi black it's the same thing is he be so since he's been in aw i think he's only faced cody rhodes or nightmare family people if i'm you know for the most part dante martin i think was thrown in there um do does malachi black get cheered against a popular baby face so if they go to jungle boy malachi black um orange cassidy malachi black does malachi black still get cheered or does he get booed and it was just because of cody I mean, that's the factor you can't control for here. So maybe before you turn Malachi Blackface, take a deep breath and see how he, you know, you don't have to have

40:49 a big, long program. Just put him in there against a face the fans like, your Darby Allens, your Jungle Boys, and see what kind of reaction he gets, and then go from there.

41:05 Ashley, anything else you want to bring up?

41:07 Just a quick question about Kenny Omega and Hangman. It was kind of a bummer we didn't get to see them, like, in person tonight, just on the screen, and we couldn't really make out the video package that Kenny had done with D. Lee earlier in the show. What do you think about the build, so far, at least on Kenny's side?

41:25 It's just, to me, like, I was one of the fans who knew of Kenny Omega before AEW, but I had never seen, like, any shows or any matches from him, excuse me. So I was really looking forward to kind of seeing, like, what Kenny Omega was about and just seeing, like, who he was because I was like, I heard, like, he was one of the best in the world and all that. And I'm definitely a fan of his now, but it just kind of, in a way, doesn't seem like he's, like, the focal point of the show. And I don't know necessarily if that's, like, a good thing or a bad thing. I'm just kind of conflicting myself.

41:56 And just kind of get your guys' opinion on that. And that was pretty much it. I appreciate your guys' time tonight, though.

42:02 Great.

42:02 Thanks, Ashley.

42:03 Glad you called. Um, yeah, you know, Eric, did you watch billions on Showtime?

42:09 I did not. Okay.

42:10 I tried to, I gave it a try and I need to be talked into giving it more of a try. Um, because some of the, some of the scripting, it's just, it's so hard because succession is so good. And people like, well, while you're waiting for succession, you know, season three to come out, you know, watch billions. Cause that that's, you know, if you like that, you'll like this, that kind of recommendation.

42:27 And I just, I don't think that the cast is a good, I don't think the, the, the, the script writing is not even close. Um, And what gets to me is just some of the lines just feel so unnatural in some of the conference room scenes. And they were the type of insults that get just levied where someone is overriding insults. And then women are laughing at jokes that no way in the real world would they laugh at. And they aren't that clever. And it just felt heavy-handed. And with Kenny tonight, it was sort of like the things he was saying kind of reminded me of what made me groan. I think it was episode two of Billions where I just sort of was like, I don't know if I can really watch this, if it's going to be like this throughout. So one, I'm

43:09 asking people to talk me back into watching Billions and tell me it gets better because Succession might have spoiled me in terms of acting and scripting and just overall, it just feels like a bigger budget, better version of what Billions is. Number two, I bring it up mostly because I think Kenny sometimes seems A billion seems a little lower rent to me than I want it to.

43:33 And sometimes Kenny seems lower rent than I want him to. And I thought, like, because Ashley brings up, you know, should you build a show around him? And I watch Roman Reigns. There's nothing low rent about Roman. Last night on SmackDown, it's one of his best promos. He just owned that ring. He's walking around with his chin up and, like, just absolutely seems to have this joy of performance. He's found his stride. He's found his lane. And he's great at it. And the show is really built around him.

44:02 He knows 35 minutes. The first 35 minutes was just Reigns in that segment reacting to what happened at Crown Jewel. And he carried it. And that's saying something. You've got Heyman and Lesnar and others as part of that mix. Kenny, I just don't know if they could do that. So one, philosophically, A.W.

44:19 is more, Tony has built it more as an ensemble show. That's a philosophical decision he's made or accidentally fallen into. I think it's more deliberate. But I don't know if he has that person you could do that with. One, he has a deeper roster than SmackDown of wrestlers people care about, top-tier guys. So it would be a harder choice to make with one signature show. You're not splitting the roster in half, even with Rampage. And I just don't know if Kenny is the guy you can do that with. So all that said, I still think they should center whatever the shortcomings Kenny has, however much he has seemed kind of low-rent at times compared to what I hoped for. and what I think he could have been from the beginning with just a little more effort

44:58 with wardrobe, a little more effort with being guided and produced a little more high-end by Tony and others, I still think you want to make your champion more a centerpiece of the show and make that championship more of a storyline. And sometimes he does seem like just another guy who happens to have the title throwing out some kind of, I think, low-rent insults at Hangman Page. Although I will say as I compound this question more with even more layers, Eric, so I hope you're taking notes.

45:30 I thought there were some high points in the interview too. And I think the broad brushstroke of that promo was Hangman Page is insecure. And we know that. And I'm going to prove why he should be. I like that better than, you know, poopy diaper jokes. You know, like that's the low rent stuff that I just was like, you know, settle yourself down and just say things without that kind of stuff. So Eric, go ahead.

45:53 Hey, Steph, do you ever watch WWE and think it used to be better?

45:56 I don't know, Josh. Sometimes I think it used to be a whole lot worse.

45:59 I mean, whether it's WrestleMania main events.

46:01 Old dudes at the top.

46:03 Too many titles.

46:04 Or women's wrestling.

46:05 We're here to answer the big question, is it worse or better now? Join me, Joshua White.

46:11 And me, Stephanie Chase.

46:13 For Worse or Better. part of the PWTorch Daily Cast lineup dropping on Monday nights.

46:18 Search PWTorch in your podcast app, such as Apple Podcasts or Spotify, to subscribe for free or get a commercial-free version with the PWTorch VIP membership. Check out pwtorch.com slash govip for details on going VIP.

46:33 Worse or better, finally, something for wrestling fans to do on Monday nights.

46:44 I mean, I think the, um, two things, one, the, that promo was so short, it was a blip. I mean, there was, to your point, it was, he was making his insults and he had his one lane, big, big line was he got his, uh, lackeys, you know, the, uh, the box and, and, and Adam, um, and Cole to laugh at him and say, ha ha, good joke boss.

47:06 Right.

47:07 Um, but, the crux of this very short promo, it couldn't even have been a minute was I'm going to beat hang man. Cause hang man's insecure. And I know he doesn't think he could win.

47:18 Right.

47:18 I mean, so to me that was good. Cause it was playing exactly into, uh, it logically followed hang man's great promo from last week where hang man kind of had his, his mission statement. And, and, uh, now I, I do have the confidence I am going to beat you. And so, um, it, it worked. Um, I, certainly feel like they got to heat this feud up a lot more than it currently is uh before they get to the pay-per-view and you know have a physical have a confrontation in the ring beat down hangman page but they've got three more dynamites in three more rampages to do that so i'm confident they will um put the uh put this on the front burner and get it done as for your other points i mean Kenny's title reign,

48:01 I thought, started out pretty strong with the shock heel turn and aligning himself with Don Callis. And there was some strong stuff at the start. And then he just, you know, and then he was he was getting back through Moxley. And then there was this period where they had two pay-per-views in a row and plus a Jungle Boy feud. And there were Kenny Omega was the champion and he wasn't wrestling any of the top guys. Why is that? Well, the first time it was because Christian, they were going to go to Christian in May. He wasn't ready. He wasn't over. So they had to go to a three-way with Pac and Orange Cassidy. And then they went with Christian in September because Paige went home to be a dad. And so time-wise, that's the heart.

48:41 That's sort of most of the actual time of Kenny Omega's reign. And so they didn't rush any other matches or any other challengers. And that's sort of what you're left with. And then So if Kenny loses the belt next month, uh, eventually are we going to get a couple of years, get a Kenny Omega baby face, uh, run with the title? I, I don't know. Can he, can he, I don't want to say redeem himself cause it's not like he was a failure, but, uh, ratings are good and, and, and the pay-per-view buy rates are good, but yeah, he just, it's weird to not be the, um, the star of your own show when you have the belt.

49:18 Yeah. I, I, I mean, there's a lot of mileage on the, on those tires and Kenny is over because of what he did in new Japan rings. And if he can't keep up and he, he, he's had, you know, he's, there's been, there was an angle, you know, I don't know, nine or 12 months ago where he could barely get out of the ring. You know, like, I mean, he was, holding the ropes and in pain. And it reminded me of Shawn Michaels when he was pushing through back stuff, back injury issues in the 90s. And I just, like, I just don't, I mean, I don't know. Maybe he'll be able to get himself back into great shape and he'll be durable enough and as a babyface be able to deliver. But, I mean, if he can't be the best bout machine, what is he? He's, I mean, what

50:01 else does he have going for him or you'd want to build around him other than a reputation among a slice, a sliver of the could actually you know recall specifics of his new japan run you know as aw grows and time passes that's a smaller segment of the audience if aw is doing their job you want it to be a smaller slice who are watching him on new japan uh new japan streaming service so but and i get that like the bad one-liners you know like you can't sleep at night you're burning through negative ones diaper supply faster than your homemade moonshine like that's bad that's bad writing and maybe it was a feature not a flaw because the bucks telling him how great he was is like That's what's funny, is his lackeys are telling

50:41 him that his lame lines are good. But he's your world champion, and I don't think he should come across low-rent. You know, and I just think he pales in comparison to Roman Reigns in terms of carrying himself as that, you know, Ric Flair-esque, centerpiece, best-of-his-generation guy. And it just doesn't seem like it's in him. You know, he's not hardwired to be that guy. And, oh, fans wouldn't be chanting cowboy shit. They'd be chanting coward shit. It's like, they need an editor. unless the idea is for him to just be a low-rent goof, that's not good enough writing.

51:12 And so that's a problem. So I guess I'd like to see the world champion have a bigger role, but to me it's playing off of Don Callis. Pay Don Callis to get him there enough to be there so he can carry Kenny and then figure out who Kenny is and be cognizant of the fact that he's come across as kind of low-rent and flaky and decide if that's who you really want to build around or else shift things around.

51:35 I mean, I guess two things about that. One, the character was definitely working the best at the start when, when, um, Don Callis was his mouthpiece. And I think, you know, the, the sort of, we're going to do the Nick Bockwinkle, uh, thing.

51:47 Right.

51:48 Yeah.

51:49 Um, and then the, uh, the other thing would be, go ahead.

51:53 Oh, you're not, you're not watching mad cat Moss.

51:55 Are you?

51:57 Yeah.

51:58 Okay.

51:59 I know.

51:59 I do know.

51:59 Okay. So I don't get paid to watch it.

52:02 So I don't.

52:03 So the reason, the reason I bring it up, is what kenny's doing in the box and kohler like laughing at him oh you're just hilarious like that kind of thing that's low rent mid-card stuff that mad cat moss is doing with baron corbin kind of happy corbin laughing at his bad jokes like that's not prestige level work as a centerpiece made him at heel that's schmaltzy silly slapstick mid-card stuff um And so, yeah, just going to Ashley's point again, if that's the work Kenny's doing, I don't think you can build the show more around him. Philosophically, I would lean towards AEW doing more with their champion.

52:44 But I think it's got to be a different guy than Kenny or callous with Kenny and then produce him better. And to repeat myself, be cognizant of not having him come across as a low-rent flaky goof.

52:57 Well, here— I mean, I think the fundamental and we could do a whole podcast and a half on this, you know, dissecting Kenny's run. There's a big difference between New Japan pro wrestling and American pro wrestling television in New Japan. Kenny was telling stories that mostly centered on him in the ring. And there there wasn't a weekly TV show. there wasn't weekly promos to cut, right? He would do backstage interviews, but it was mostly focused on the athleticism and his approach versus Okada's approach or his approach versus Tanahashi's approach, or whoever it is he was wrestling against. And it was more sort of win-loss based, athletic based, and it wasn't... He was telling stories. He just wasn't telling American television wrestling stories. And he didn't

53:45 really have a track record in that. And so this is now... what he's been asked to do and we've seen the results. And so, um, I don't know if you're going to, if he's, he, if he was going to adjust, you would think he would have adjusted already. And so the fact that he hasn't, um, you know, he, this, this is, this is what he is.

54:06 Yeah, no, no, I know. It is what he is, but I think you can take the reins more if you're Tony Khan and say, here's 26.4%. of you that we've seen the last six months that I want to turn into 98% of you. And then there's, let me do a quick math, 73.4% of you that I don't think is conducive to the role we have you in right now. And let's reduce that down to 2% and pick our spots. And in other words, amplify the strengths and edit the weaknesses. And I mean, that's what you need to do with a top, top guy. And I just, that's one area where I just don't think Tony stepped up.

54:45 And I think there's enough good in Kenny. Like, it sounds like I'm trashing him. I'd like, I I've gushed about him at times, but it's about one out of four weeks, you know, or one out of four times he's in a prominent spot where I'm like that guy more of that. And instead it's like three fourths of the time. He's that other guy.

54:59 Kenny's got a whole run of dream matches coming up. So I don't think he's going to take any time off. And, um, yeah, just, just figure out a way to make it, make it, uh, uh, Kenny Danielson, right? Give us 45 minutes on a pay-per-view or whatever. Make it about the wrestling, right? Lean into his strengths, which is still being one of the best workers in the world.

55:19 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Did you know that you can enjoy commercial-free versions of all of your favorite Wade Keller podcasts and PWTorch daily casts on Spotify? Just go to patreon.com, search PWTorch, and subscribe to a VIP membership tier. You get a seven-day free trial, by the way, to kick the tires a bit and see if you like the service.

55:39 And then sync it with Spotify, and you can listen to commercial-free versions of our free shows, like the Wade Keller Post Shows, the Wade Keller Podcast Flagship, our Flashbacks, and also the PWTorch DataCast lineup. Again, all commercial-free, a nice streamlined listening experience. But with third-tier membership, you can also unlock all the VIP podcasts, including Everything with Rich and Wade, The Fix with Todd Martin that I host with Todd every week, the Wade Keller News Bulletin, Post Pay-Per-View Roundtables, and an array of other VIP-exclusive podcasts with different hosts and different themes. Check out the lineup. Go to Patreon and search PWTorch and subscribe and sync it up with Spotify or stay within the Patreon ecosystem. Either

56:17 way works. Go to Patreon and start your seven-day free trial. Josh, I appreciate you hanging on. Josh is our on-site correspondent along with a friend of yours. Josh, what's your friend's name who attended with you?

56:34 Hey, Chris here with me. Chris? Hello.

56:37 Hey, Chris. Uh, so we got, uh, two on-site correspondents on the road. Uh, thank you. Um, how was the show overall? Well, good experience, Josh. How many, how many AW shows have you been to now?

56:48 This is actually my first AW show. Oh, really?

56:50 Oh, wow.

56:51 It's Chris's second.

56:52 Okay. Um, so even better.

56:54 I was at, uh, Double or Nothing. The first one, the very first AW show.

57:00 Yeah.

57:00 Oh, nice, nice.

57:01 So, yeah, um, either of you just kind of identify yourself as you talk because listeners can kind of keep track then and just say, this is Josh or this is Chris. Um, But just talk about your thoughts on the experience in the building overall. What do you remember most about tonight?

57:16 I think we both.

57:17 Had consensus that, and this is Josh, by the way, I think we both had the consensus that Um, at least I don't remember the last time I went to a wrestling show, namely a WWE show where, uh, I was upset that they weren't taping another hour at the end. Um, we realized about halfway through that given that, uh, they have a whole dynamite taping on Wednesday in, in Boston next week, uh, there's no need to tape rampage. Uh, so we, um, we sort of thought, and jump in whenever you want, Chris, but at least I, I sort of thought that, um, They played their biggest stars fairly judiciously tonight. We had a really fun Bryan Danielson match.

57:57 We had The Punk running, and obviously Cody and Black. But we got the Elite in promo version on the big screen, and we got a post-match segment, or a post-show segment with CM Punk, which we can talk about in a little bit. But it really felt... And it was still satisfying, but it was a very maintenance-feeling show, at least in person.

58:21 What do you think, Chris? Yeah, this is Chris.

58:25 To add on to what Josh said, yeah, it kind of felt like, in a way, a filler episode, but there were still really, really good elements.

58:38 The crowd absolutely loved.

58:42 Bryan Danielson versus Dustin Rhodes And then when it came time for Cody versus Malachi Black, I mean, we were all aboard, you know, for that.

58:55 Malachi Black got a huge, huge reaction.

58:59 And Cody Rhodes, obviously, I don't know if it came across on TV, but.

59:04 He got a lot of booze.

59:06 It wasn't just booze. It was, it was hostile.

59:08 Yeah.

59:10 It wasn't just our boo.

59:11 It was vitriol. Yeah. Yeah.

59:15 So that was, um, that was interesting to see nonetheless. Um, overall though, I felt the show paced itself excellently. Um, It didn't feel like it dragged at all. I remember Josh and I, when we went to, you know, not to draw comparisons, but when we went to Raw back in, what, June?

59:40 No, that was August.

59:41 It feels like it's been longer than that. But, yeah, when we went back in August, there were points of the show where we were like, gosh, we're not even an hour in.

59:53 I actually came on this show and said it was 43 minutes into the show and we were ready.

59:57 To kind of get going.

59:58 Yeah, exactly.

1:00:01 And so this show, I mean, it flew by.

1:00:04 The crowd was hot the entire time. The crowd was super hot even for the elevation.

1:00:10 Tapings that they did before the show.

1:00:13 So honestly, pretty solid crowd for the night as far as noise goes. And yeah, just overall.

1:00:23 You know, it was fun.

1:00:23 Really good show.

1:00:24 It was a lot of fun.

1:00:25 It was just something, to Josh's point earlier, where I was like, man, like, yeah, I could have gone for another, you know, a few matches of that.

1:00:35 You know, it was a good time.

1:00:38 And like I mentioned earlier, I was the very first double or nothing, and I kind of felt the same way. I felt at that show where I was like, gosh, you know, there's not one point where, I'm looking at the, at my watch and thinking, gosh, all right, you know, we got X amount of time left.

1:00:55 So, um, it, it honestly, it was very smooth sailing.

1:00:59 Well, that is a high compliment for a wrestling show is, you know, when you don't want it to end, you want there to be more. Cause as you said, that often isn't the case, unfortunately, um, either due to duration or quality or at worst, a combination of both that combustible combination of a bad show that runs too long. Um, how, how full was the building tonight? What's the capacity of the building? And, uh, Of the seats that they could have sold that wouldn't have been obstructed by the stage, how many of them were tarped off or empty?

1:01:25 Nothing was tarped off out of what they could have sold. In the, yeah, I'd say about 93%, to be very precise about it.

1:01:34 Do you have a decimal?

1:01:36 With the hard camera? Yeah, down to the decimal. The section with the hard camera was full until the fifth row, and then the rest of that was unavailable. And then there was one section which was not topped off right next to the stage on the side where the camera is, but it was unsold. So that was kind of just empty.

1:01:59 But otherwise, what could have been sold? Very, very close to sold out. I actually looked at Ticketmaster.com.

1:02:05 This morning. Um, and they must've.

1:02:07 Had a really good day off sales or a really good walk up sales because it filled out a lot more than it looked like it was going to be based on the, uh, the seat map this morning. And I'm not sure if you follow, um, Russell picks on, on Twitter, but they do a really good job of, um, uh, showing you how things progress throughout the day of a show and really competing of going on sale. And, It seemed like there was a big rush of sales.

1:02:33 It hit about 4,000 sales on the offset.

1:02:36 And it really didn't move very much after the first week or so of sales. Until today, they seem to move a bunch of tickets day off. So yeah, it filled out really nicely.

1:02:47 There was the middle of the show with Penelope Ford and Ruby Soho, and then Bobby Fish and Anthony Green. Fish and Green was short, but nevertheless, there were ring introductions, and it sort of like did, did Dynamite end and Dark start? Like, that's kind of, I was wondering if the crowd was wondering that when, when that match began, how, how did both of those matches, including ring introductions and the whole thing, hold the crowd interest? Did they get, did, did, because sometimes women's matches don't hold fan interest from our live correspondents as much as other stuff. And then, you know, was there any restlessness when Bobby Fish and Anthony Green come out to, uh, the most generic music you can imagine?

1:03:22 Yeah.

1:03:23 Um, so this is Chris speaking, but, um, Ruby Soho actually got a pretty big pop. She had people singing along with her entrance music.

1:03:35 So, I mean, the crowd seemed pretty hot for her. During the match, it was kind of iffy.

1:03:43 I think everyone was using it more. I hate using this term, but they were using it like a concession break in ways, but it didn't really like overstay its welcome. It was more, it kind of felt like a breather through the show. And then Josh and I had actually both looked at each other when Bobby Fish was coming out because I personally, I really liked watching Bobby Fish wrestle, but he.

1:04:14 Actually did not have as much of a pop as you would think.

1:04:19 And especially being in Orlando, you know, obviously it's, with the NXT tapings that have been happening here consistently for the past few years, you would expect him to get a bigger.

1:04:31 Reaction, I would say, or at least I expected.

1:04:34 That, you know, him being in Orlando. But, yeah, I mean, it seemed like those were big breathing points for the show to kind of let the crowd catch his breath from, like, the Dustin versus Bryan and such.

1:04:52 Hey, everyone. Longtime PWTorch columnist Sean Radican here to let you know I've revamped and renewed the Radican Worldwide Podcast for 2026. a weekly VIP exclusive. Every week, I break down four or five of the biggest trending topics in pro wrestling. I also present my analysis, providing insight that helps you understand the story better or see it another way than maybe is the controversial take out there. Then I bring on a special guest for the second half of the podcast. Sometimes it's a wrestler or someone else who works in the business. Other times it's a guest analyst who brings their specialized point of view on a particular key topic in the news. Recent guests have included Bronson Reed from WWE and PCO. One of my areas

1:05:34 of specialty is the Japan wrestling scene, so I often cover a big topic from Japan with PW Torch's own Alan Farrell, Kelly Wells, and Chris Lansdell. I don't just cover the news. I don't just riff on the news or give a standard hot take. I'll bring my decades of studying this industry and talking one-on-one with dozens of wrestling promoters to each week's show so you understand not just what's happening, but the context of why. Get ahead of the news. Get ahead of the pack with Ratican Worldwide only at PWTorch VIP.

1:06:09 This is Josh. Did you guys pick up on the fact that we and I'd say most of the crowd actually didn't realize that it was Punk making the save until he took off his hat about 10 or 15 seconds into that intervention? And then you got a huge pause. what people caught on, but it was, it was very strange for a couple of seconds that.

1:06:28 Yes. The announcers acknowledge that. I can't remember which one it was mentioned that. And I mentioned in my report at PW torch.com that I, if punk was trying to disguise himself, he couldn't have done a better job, you know, black shirt, black pants. It doesn't, it doesn't have his logo on it. You know, it's Rufus sport, mixed martial arts, and people aren't going to recognize that from a distance.

1:06:46 And then he's wearing a baseball cap. Like, If I'm going to shoplift, I'm going to pick Punk's outfit because I don't want anyone in the neighborhood to know it's me. So, yeah, that was kind of a weird choice. You might want to rethink that. That was a comical moment, and it's funny that you guys can testify to that being the case.

1:07:03 Yeah, there was a definite sense of disappointment, but it was a strong one.

1:07:08 I think in general, even... I guess with the exception of.

1:07:13 The ending to the main event, the crowd was really contentable throughout the evening. But there was some discontent I picked up on once Punk left and there was no overt, let's have.

1:07:24 A match on Dynamite, or Rampage, excuse me.

1:07:27 And at this point, it's kind of clicking to us that, as we actually went through the thought process, oh, I guess they're setting this up for a match on Rampage, which they'll tape after the show. And as time went by, we're kind of thinking, oh, was that the only... Was that the only punk we're going to see tonight? But he actually did come out at the end. He's not to jump too far over the map. Do you want us to talk a little bit about what happened after the.

1:07:49 Show went off the air?

1:07:49 Yeah, yeah, go for it. Yep, good transition point.

1:07:52 I'm not sure at which point it faded from TNT, but Cody was celebrating in the ring and lots of boos as you picked up on Uh, he actually got on the mic and it feels like he's doing the 2011 John Cena.

1:08:06 We hope you entertained.

1:08:07 Uh, we hope, uh, we entertain you tonight.

1:08:09 He kind of went down that path a little bit and then shifted to saying that, uh, and at this point still.

1:08:14 Still booze. And then it took a very hard turn. Um, we felt a little bit bad.

1:08:19 He starts talking about how, uh, Orlando is special to him because it's his dad's final resting place.

1:08:25 And he'll always think of.

1:08:26 His dad when he wrestles in Orlando.

1:08:27 And we're all like, geez, awkward.

1:08:30 Um, He should have led with that in the pre-show.

1:08:34 Yes.

1:08:35 He got a respectful clap, cheer reaction and I think a lot of people might have rethought.

1:08:42 Their passionate reactions after that.

1:08:44 But no, he one way or another, he turned himself face. He ended up bringing out Sammy Guevara to do a filming of his, I guess he has a vlog and they have a tradition of doing a doc segment at the end of these shows where Sammy Guevara films a segment for his vlog. The Acclaimed came out and rapped on Cody and Guevara and a few other mixed babyfaces in the ring.

1:09:08 And then, please help me out.

1:09:10 If Tony Khan came out and then fill in the links.

1:09:13 Yeah, so Tony Khan, Tony Khan came.

1:09:18 Out and had basically made a statement like, oh, you know, nobody wants to hear the acclaimed rap. You know, everyone paid to see good wrestling tonight. The acclaimed kept running their mouths. And then Tony Khan was like, the people also paid to see CM Punk.

1:09:37 And then CM Punk made his entrance and everybody sang along.

1:09:40 He got a much bigger pop than he did when he.

1:09:42 Took his hat off.

1:09:45 Yeah, he got a bigger pop off TV than he did on TV tonight.

1:09:48 I think people.

1:09:50 Just really wanted to sing along to the entrance and have the whole routine.

1:09:53 Yeah, yeah.

1:09:56 So, yeah, Ben Punk came out, and then Tony Khan or Punk was saying, like, oh, you know, we can't let you guys be, and Tony Khan came back out and said, Well, you.

1:10:09 Can't leave these guys, get out of the ring. All they've done, you're going to let them go in this game. Yeah, exactly.

1:10:15 And then they all hit their finishers and sent the crowd home happy. Yeah, Punk hit a GTS. Boy Go Del Sol, his finisher.

1:10:24 Oh, and then Negative One pinned, I think he pinned, was it Bowens?

1:10:29 I think so, yeah. No, it was Max Caster, I think he pinned him. It was one of them.

1:10:35 Yeah.

1:10:37 Yeah, so CM.

1:10:38 Punk counted a one, two, three, negative one, and I'm pretty sure it was Max Cassidy.

1:10:45 Yeah.

1:10:46 Yeah, and then Funk's music played, and everybody went home. I wrapped it up.

1:10:51 Did it seem like they gave you enough after Dynamite ended? You know, you say everybody went home happy, and that's sort of, sometimes we say that because that's the category it falls into when we call it that. But do you think it actually is true? Like, did the crowd seem fulfilled?

1:11:03 I fully intend it as a cliche.

1:11:05 Yes.

1:11:05 Yes.

1:11:06 So, I mean, did it seem the crowd was happy, though?

1:11:08 I mean, yeah.

1:11:13 Happy in the show was good. But to be honest, as much as I enjoyed myself, and I don't know if you feel the same way, Chris, I could be more satisfied.

1:11:22 I think that the.

1:11:25 Vast majority of the crowd was underwhelmed not getting to see Black win. And I don't think a happy-go-lucky babyface, you know, it was great to see CM Punk, but I mean, it was very house show, kind of dark, not to overuse the term, but it was.

1:11:44 Very cliche off-TV dark segment.

1:11:46 It wasn't anything... special that you would expect to see as a make good for a dissatisfying finish to the show. But, you know, as far as they're concerned, as far as Cody, I will never turn heel is concerned. Do they understand that that's a dissatisfying finish?

1:12:02 I don't know.

1:12:03 Yeah.

1:12:03 And to add on to what Josh is going to say, this is Chris. Um, I think from the very beginning from black's entrance and this, this might just.

1:12:12 Be me, but you can joke at any time.

1:12:15 Um, that crowd was ready to see Black win this series. That is, I mean, I think I could be speaking for 90% of the crowd, but when he made his entrance, despite the spotlight not shining on the right turnbuckle, people were invested in seeing Black win to the point to where any sort of kick out that Cody had was booed.

1:12:47 You know, when people from the Nightmare family were coming down, they were getting booed. And anytime Black was looking like he was on the offense, he was getting a huge ovation. So I think it kind of deflated people, myself included a little bit.

1:13:05 When Cody pinned him and there was that final three count.

1:13:08 And I just thought to myself, okay, I get that we don't have to do the undefeated thing uh, new star all the time.

1:13:17 And I, I totally understand that. I don't feel like.

1:13:21 This was the time and place that, uh, people expected black to lose.

1:13:25 And I think that's why it was kind of underwhelming.

1:13:28 And I also think that may have led into the after, uh, show promo that Cody cut, because if you had just cut.

1:13:37 Straight to, um, Yeah, if it.

1:13:42 Cut off right there without anything and Cody just went up to the back, you would have a lot of people not too thrilled. And I think they kind of left on a little bit of a better note, but still a little underwhelmed off of that result because I think.

1:13:58 That's what people were really invested in.

1:14:00 I think we appreciate that they tried to sweep the mood, and that makes us feel better, but it's not a full sense of.

1:14:08 Satisfaction, put it that way. Yeah.

1:14:12 If you're listening to us on the Apple Podcast app, on Spotify, or any other app that allows you to rate our podcast, please take a moment to give us a five-star rating. It really helps us in the algorithm and helps them know that you recommend us to others. Just look for a place to rate the show on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to our shows, and please click that five-star rating. And of course, thank you so much for listening. Eric Kroll is the co-host today.

1:14:39 And Eric, you've been listening in. Is there anything you want to add in terms of questions for Chris and Josh?

1:14:45 Sure.

1:14:45 So during Jungle Boy and Brandon Cutler, they did that post-match attack on Jungle Boy where they threw him off the stage onto a crash pad. It seemed like there wasn't a lot of heel heat for that. What was the crowd reaction to that?

1:15:00 Where is Luchasaurus?

1:15:03 So it was kind of a murmur of, someone's coming out right so it was more a quiet anticipation uh not so much boo out there you attack jungle boy it's okay hold on wait for the pop we're all gonna pop he's gonna come out um and he didn't come out uh that was.

1:15:16 At least my take on it yeah and this is chris again i would say.

1:15:20 There was that um and also when sting was.

1:15:23 Getting beat down um it was more of a factor of okay well where are these people that.

1:15:30 We would normally expect to come out? Where are they coming out? Yeah. This didn't really have no other friends. This is less than not having anyone to watch his back.

1:15:38 Exactly.

1:15:39 So it's a little continuity, things like that. I will say, I think a lot of people were very, very.

1:15:45 Surprised with the bump that Jungle Boy took going off the stage. And I think it was more of like a shock of like, oh my gosh, that just happened. Kind of ordeal on, You know, I don't know how well it came across on TV, but I think all of us, we were just like, good grief. He almost cleared both tables.

1:16:03 Yeah, he almost cleared both tables. So, yeah, it was a little scary.

1:16:09 Especially after the hot show. Yeah, exactly what Josh had mentioned. Actually, Lance Archer, Moonsault, was pretty difficult to watch live. happened and I had actually told Josh earlier oh yeah uh Lance Archer was climbing the turnbuckle early in the match and I looked at Josh and I thought to myself and I told him I was like oh what do you think he's gonna do a moonsault like jokingly because I was like no there's no need for him to do a moonsault and then two three minutes later goes on the other turnbuckle and does moonsault and.

1:16:43 Lands, from our view, lands on his neck.

1:16:48 It very much had that kind of mood of that stunned silence of Brock Lesnar shooting star press in 2019.

1:16:56 That kind of like, oh, hey.

1:16:58 And it was like, kind of sucked the air out of the building for a brief moment until really we.

1:17:04 Saw that he walked himself to the back.

1:17:06 But still, I mean, those little things, Throughout the night, kind of people were a little indifferent on that because they're like, we don't know how we should register.

1:17:18 I could go two lifetimes without seeing Daniel Bryan take a pal driver again.

1:17:22 Oh, yeah.

1:17:23 I didn't like that.

1:17:24 Yeah.

1:17:24 Yeah.

1:17:26 Yeah.

1:17:27 And sometimes it's not like, well, trust us. We know what we're doing. Sometimes it's like, well, trust us as viewers to have emotions tied to your history and that takes us out of the moment when you do moves that feel more self-indulgent than, than adding to our entertainment. Like just like, I don't care if you feel comfortable and medically you're clear, just, we don't want to see you do that. Um, that's how I feel with Brian sometimes, you know, it's, you know, you're, you're doing it for you, not for us. Um, and yeah, we don't need pile drivers. Um, So we didn't see.

1:17:58 Kind of a built in like layer of discomfort with Brian anyway, kind of knowing his own admission that he has lied.

1:18:04 About his health.

1:18:05 It's like, how am I supposed to reconcile cheering this and feeling comfortable with this?

1:18:10 Yeah, totally.

1:18:11 So we didn't see our we saw Archer, you know, get the Mahistral cradle thing. And, you know, he rolled himself to the ring and went back in. But talk about how he looked walking to the back because that was not on camera.

1:18:23 He had a referee with an arm over his shoulder and he was mostly supporting his own way. I mean, he looked really shaken up naturally, but he did seem to be mostly under his own steam.

1:18:33 But once the adrenaline was off, I think he's kind of pretty sore. And also, I don't know if it matters, but he did not walk up the ramp.

1:18:42 He actually walked off to the side of the ramp and kind of like.

1:18:46 Through the back way. Yeah. Yeah.

1:18:50 I hope he's okay and i think you're right i don't know if he's going to remember what happened um and he i hope they well i'm sure they'll do thorough thorough tests on that neck and give him time off um for you know possible concussion and just they need to stop trusting wrestlers who might be concussed to be the best judge of whether they can continue a match at all and just call the match off. I mean, I think fans will respect it more. Eric, anything else you want to jump in with a question on?

1:19:16 How long did they make you sit through the elevation taping? I was at the United Center when Punk made his debut, and I sat through close to two hours of just, like, nearly 20 squash matches. And I was, maybe it's because I was typing the results out to get them to some websites, but, man, it was exhausting. Was it an hour?

1:19:34 Was it a half hour?

1:19:34 Two hours?

1:19:35 The elevation taping?

1:19:37 Like.

1:19:39 Not even, like, I think it was about 45 minutes. Because they started about 5 past 7. I think the last match wrapped up, like, 7.40 something. So it was pretty brisk, actually.

1:19:47 So I think they just did Elevation and they didn't do Dark and they didn't do multiple shows. So lucky you, Eric. You got the extended version. The extended cut.

1:19:56 They did.

1:19:57 They're in town through tomorrow taping at Universal Studios. And I think they had, like, two or three different taping sessions beginning, what, like, 11 a.m. or something like that?

1:20:05 Yeah, one.

1:20:07 They have a taping tomorrow at 1 p.m.

1:20:11 And another one at 5 p.m.

1:20:15 Was there any news, Nate, during Elevation?

1:20:18 Yeah, anything jump out that's worth passing along. Spoiler-free if you can help it for.

1:20:22 Those who care.

1:20:24 Yeah.

1:20:26 I have to admit, I don't watch a ton of the Sheldon content.

1:20:30 I don't think you do either, Chris. We actually didn't recognize most of the names, but.

1:20:35 They introduced three kind of local talent for what we thought was going.

1:20:41 To be a trios match.

1:20:42 So we're thinking, oh, excuse me, wait, a six-man tag team match.

1:20:46 Thank you. I really appreciate it.

1:20:48 And then they actually... Of course, I paid very close attention. So we're thinking, who's coming out? And I actually played Paul White's music, and he stepped up from the commentary desk in his gear and went in.

1:21:01 For a three-on-one handicap match.

1:21:04 And I don't think I need to spoil that one.

1:21:08 Right exactly yeah.

1:21:09 Everything else on the taping was pretty you know unremarkable it was fun i mean nothing nothing was um eric you know didn't sound like we had anything like the experience you did it didn't it didn't really drive it they had three or four matches and everything was pretty um you know uh we got a pretty decent clip good uh what kind of.

1:21:29 Who who had the most heel heat uh dan lambert mjf that's usually the battle um between those two these days I guess we'll set Cody aside, although you're welcome to rate him compared to those two. And anyone else, anyone else compete in that mix?

1:21:44 Yeah, this is Chris, but I would definitely say MJF had the most to the point where in the arena when he started cutting his promo.

1:21:58 Couldn't hear a word that he was saying. We're just booing at that point.

1:22:02 Exactly.

1:22:03 You knew that there was noise coming out of the microphone. You couldn't really pick it up because of how loud the boos were in the actual arena. So I don't know how well that came across on TV, but I would say he definitely got a lot of heat, you know, probably the most out of the whole night next to Dan Lambert and American Top Team. And then, like you mentioned, Cody, but I would actually put Cody in a different bracket as far as like that.

1:22:34 It wasn't heel-heel, it was vitriol.

1:22:38 Not to harp on that, it was just a very different tone. I actually looked at Chris, and this is, of course, Josh. I actually looked at Chris during the Cody Black match, and I'm like, this doesn't feel comfortable. This is like, you know, it was, I think it was Ashley who called in earlier, and she said it was profane. It was really, you know, lots of, a few different variations of FU Cody, you know.

1:22:59 And more.

1:23:01 I had told Josh during the match, I was like, this might be Cody's version of One Night Stand 2006, you know, like it was for John Cena. Because, I mean, there were people just yelling whatever they wanted to, and they were vulgar about it, you know.

1:23:17 I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I have to say, the feeling, I was having a really hard time encapsulating the feeling, what it was like. when Cody won and knowing that Cody was about to win, it felt like being there for kind of those, you know, 2011, 12 imminent John Cena victories or the 2015, 16 imminent Roman reigns victories, where it's like this hollow sense of I'm going to cheer for my guys, but I know what's coming.

1:23:48 I can feel it coming.

1:23:49 And when he wins, it's just like this deflation.

1:23:53 Yeah. I'm sorry to cut you off.

1:23:54 I'll put that.

1:23:55 Cause you just, Triggered.

1:23:57 That for me.

1:23:59 Yeah, so I would definitely say those were the reactions of the night, as far as boos go.

1:24:08 Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts? Well, come join me, Alan Forel, over in the Pro Wrestling Paradise at Peterborough Torch VIP, as we bask on the bright side of wrestling and focus on some of the great matches and shows from around the world. be it the US, Japan, Europe, or Mexico. There's always a place for wrestling's past in the Paradise too, and we've done fun historical shows such as the We Love Liger series, celebrating the glorious career of Jushin Thunder Liger, and our I Was There When shows, where our guests will join me to talk about a classic bout that they were in attendance for. We love variety, and you can expect lots of it at the Pro Wrestling Paradise. Detailed PWTorch

1:24:50 VIP subscription information and a list of all the VIP benefits is available at pwtorchvipinfo.com. And yes, all VIP podcasts are compatible with popular podcast apps on iPhone and Android devices. Or you can stream them directly from our ad-free VIP mobile site.

1:25:09 See you in the paradise! Josh and Chris, you guys are great. We could probably talk to you longer. I want to get to people who have been on hold for like an hour and a half to here. So I want you guys can add anything else that you want. Yeah. And anything else that you think is pertinent that we haven't gotten to first of all. And then second, I want you to close with your just theory on what went wrong with Cody. Keep it sort of pithy. You know, I mean, this isn't a five minute, you know, we can talk another another week if you want to go longer.

1:25:43 But just, you know, kind of your gut for being in the building. What happened with Cody? Because Eric and I, Spent a decent amount of time earlier in the show trying, you know, kind of speculating on that.

1:25:52 The pomp and circumstance of it all.

1:25:54 As soon as Aleister Black's entrance music started to fade down, the chandelier set piece begins to lower. And it's like, oh, God, it's going to come out from behind the chandelier and it's going to be a whole production. And then the kind of the operatic music kicks in.

1:26:08 It's like, here we go.

1:26:11 It's too much by half and then some.

1:26:14 It's so produced and orchestrated and inside.

1:26:21 I think some of it, too, is just knowing.

1:26:26 I know that functionally the power situation today is a little bit different with the EVPs, but just knowing that he gets that treatment not because it's ostensibly earned by his performances and he he has he and I do not want to um portray that he doesn't earn you know his role and he has he's worked extremely hard I'm sure but um I think if you want to operate as one of the guys on the tv show you kind of need to leave the privileges and at the curtain and Cody doesn't.

1:27:04 Leave his privileges at the curtain. I'm sorry.

1:27:06 I don't think I articulated that the way I intended to, but that's, that's kind of my best summation of it.

1:27:11 I think you did great.

1:27:14 And really quickly to add on to what Josh had just said, this is Chris, but I think you, you pair them up against a guy like Malachi black. And it's almost like you, I mean, it's what I said earlier. People want to see black when people buy into black's aura and, and his mystique so much so that you look at a guy like Cody and you kind of like roll your eyes and you're like, gosh, I hope that this guy doesn't be.

1:27:42 A guy like black because I like the things that black is doing.

1:27:46 And, um, I think a lot of people felt that way in this feud. I don't really see them doing the same things in those feuds that he had in the past, especially with MJF. You know, you look at that feud and it's like, nobody wanted MJF to win, win that, you know?

1:28:02 And, So they were pulling for Cody.

1:28:04 So I think it's a case of like, okay, of course, Cody's going to put himself against the next hottest guy in wrestling, obviously, before Punk came back.

1:28:14 But he's going to put himself in.

1:28:16 This storyline with currently the hottest product that they had at that point.

1:28:23 And then you're thinking, oh.

1:28:24 My gosh, is he going to beat this guy that we really want to see?

1:28:29 And you kind of roll your eyes.

1:28:30 I think that just builds up over time, and thus you get a reaction like you got tonight.

1:28:35 I'm so sorry. This is Josh again.

1:28:37 I just want to add one more thing.

1:28:38 The other thing that stuck out to me is.

1:28:39 I don't think Cody, through this arc that he's had through being booed and losing to Black and having Arn Anderson play the tough love card, I don't think he's struggled enough. They've kind of played this as if it's been like a three- or four-month story arc in which Cody, since his last loss to Black, has.

1:28:59 Gone through some kind.

1:29:01 Of divine improvement, and he's a different Cody now, and he's gone through the struggle and come out the other end a changed man, and I don't really believe that.

1:29:09 I mean, we have, I think, two.

1:29:11 Vignettes, one with Arm showing up at Cody's house and burning his suits, and then another one where Cody was getting.

1:29:18 I don't know, like he.

1:29:19 Slapped upside the head by a bunch of trainees and we're supposed to believe that he had some kind of growth that should make us cheer him out. It's not really believable.

1:29:29 Yeah.

1:29:29 And then you do the same over the top grandiose ring entrance and it shows there's a lack of self-awareness that then just feeds into, you know, that was propaganda, but you didn't really change. And, you know, that just fuels it, fuels the pushback.

1:29:41 Yeah.

1:29:42 Um, Great guys. Appreciate it so much. Any quick final note from either of you that isn't Cody related on the show or is that pretty much hit the point?

1:29:50 So I was racking my brain to think of any kind of fun off-camera happenings, and the only one that sticks out is totally irreverent. But while MGF was on his way to the ring doing his promo, I think he said something to the effect of, Sting, you don't want to answer questions from this talentless nobody, referring to Tony Schiavone. And off-camera, Tony just puts up the double birds up the ramp to MGF.

1:30:14 Oh, fun.

1:30:14 And I got a laugh from the fans in that area. I don't think they caught that on camera, but the timing was brilliant.

1:30:22 That's tremendous. That's really funny.

1:30:23 Chris, anything to add to you?

1:30:25 No, I mean, it was a good show.

1:30:28 So, yeah, we had fun.

1:30:29 Notwithstanding the air of dissatisfaction at the end, a very, very good time.

1:30:34 And I can't wait to go back to A.W.

1:30:36 Good stuff.

1:30:37 All right, Josh, Chris, thank you so much. You guys were great to talk to.

1:30:42 Likewise.

1:30:42 Thank you, guys.

1:30:43 Have a good rest of the show.

1:30:44 Absolutely.

1:30:44 Have a great rest of the night.

1:30:45 Thank you.

1:30:46 Yep.

1:30:46 Safe travels. iPhone users, if you're listening to us on the Native Podcast app on your iPhone, You can unlock our commercial-free versions of our free shows by searching PWTorch in Apple Podcasts. You'll see a charcoal gray logo that says PWTorch VIP on it. Click on that. There's some free samples of VIP shows, and you can unlock the entire VIP lineup, which includes VIP exclusives plus commercial-free versions of the free shows by searching PWTorch in Apple Podcasts and clicking on the PWTorch VIP logo. and then activate your three-day free trial. And after that, you can become a VIP member using your Apple account. It's that easy.

1:31:22 Enjoy a streamlined listening experience to our free shows and unlock all the VIP exclusives, including our post-pay-per-view roundtables, the Wade Keller news bulletins, everything with Rich and Wade, the fix that I host with Todd Martin, and a variety of other VIP exclusives. Just search PWTorch in your Apple Podcast app. All right, very good. Thanks to our callers who have held on. If you're joining us live, this is Wade Keller, Pro Wrestling Post Show. We're covering the special Saturday Night Dynamite. I'm Wade Keller. The other voice you'll hear is Eric Kroll. I almost said Eric Bischoff, which is very weird. I just, I don't know how that almost happened.

1:32:01 83 weeks, Keller. 83 weeks.

1:32:04 The other voice you'll hear soon is Eric Kroll. Unless Eric Bischoff calls. Back when I did Pro Wrestling Focus in the early 90s on KFAN radio, And Eric was in the AWA. He sometimes called. Or no, he was in WCW at that point. And he called the show sometimes. Maybe it was just once. I think it was two or three times. He just called the show sometimes to check in on things and probably say mean things about something that I said that was mean about WCW.

1:32:29 I don't know.

1:32:30 So who knows? You never know who's going to drop in. But our number is 347-215-8558. When you call, just a reminder, you have to push 1 on your keypad to flag you on our switchboard. Otherwise, you'll just be in the background. If you flag yourself by pushing one, then we know you're ready and want to be brought onto the program.

1:32:49 Speaking of which, we had good caller support tonight, and I appreciate everybody who's held on. Most of you have. We'll go to Bryant in Boston next. Bryant, just a warning. I want to, because we've already run really long, and I know you held on, so I'm not going to rush you through the call, but we're not going to go really long with each caller out of respect to those who are still on hold. So, Bryant, welcome. What stood out on Dynamite tonight?

1:33:15 First of all, can you guys hear me okay?

1:33:17 Yeah, you sound like you're hiding under a pillow so someone sleeping in the other bunk bed can't hear you or something, but yeah, you sound fine.

1:33:25 Okay.

1:33:26 Did I describe the scene? No, I'm kidding.

1:33:28 Go ahead. I am lying down, but if I'm going to be the on-site correspondent for next week, then it helps if you can hear me, so thank goodness.

1:33:43 Sure, yes, yes.

1:33:46 By the way, did you get the email I sent earlier?

1:33:50 I am a little behind on emails this weekend, but I think.

1:33:55 Okay, well, whenever you get a chance.

1:33:57 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll take a look. Oh, yeah, I just looked it up. No, actually, I hadn't even opened it yet. I've just been running all over the place the last few days.

1:34:06 Yeah, I can imagine.

1:34:09 Okay.

1:34:11 But anyway, I thought the show was I thought the show was pretty good. I mean, you know, it wasn't like spectacular or anything like that. But, you know, it did a good job building up the storylines and stuff. As far as Cody Rhodes, Malachi Black, I think there was a lot more chicanery, I guess, in that match than there should have been in. I would have liked to see Black win, but Cody Rhodes had already got beaten by him twice, so it was kind of like I knew that Cody was going to win that match.

1:34:41 But as far as what's next for Malachi Black, I think a good feud, if they're going to keep him heel, then I think a good feud for him might be once the American Top Team feud finishes, I think maybe going up against Sammy Guevara for the TNT title might not be a bad idea. I think that, that could be potentially a good feud.

1:35:04 Uh, yeah.

1:35:05 Oh, so what do you guys think about that possibility?

1:35:07 Yeah.

1:35:08 Eric, your thoughts on that black versus Sammy?

1:35:10 Is that the, um, for the TNT title? Yes.

1:35:15 Yeah.

1:35:15 I feel like if black takes on Sammy, he almost has to win. Cause I don't, I still don't think Sammy's been elevated even to as high of a position in the promotion as, as a black is just by getting himself over the way he did. So, um, It just strikes me as weird to have Black beating Sammy, to have Sammy beating Black like it doesn't seem right.

1:35:43 And to have Black beat Sammy, you'd be cutting Sammy off before you had a chance to build him. So I don't know. Do you want to have Black take two losses in a row if they want to keep the belt on Sammy long term?

1:35:57 Maybe they wait a little bit to do that for you, Don, if they're going to do it.

1:36:01 Yeah, they have a deep roster, but so many people are paired off. It's like, you know, and again, then there's the issue of should Black, you know, even be facing baby faces at this point? And if they do, do you want to be the next baby facey face? It's like, to me, like Malachi Black has a baby face against Brian Cage, you know, or they haven't really protected powerhouse Hobbs. And they just have a ton of people on the roster who just aren't at that level.

1:36:28 You know, I mean, you could, you know, have Max Caster, you know, you know, be irritating and black beats him, you know, but it's not like, you know, a high-end feud. So it's not, you know, it's weird, but as deep as our roster is and as, you know, I don't know how many, how many ex-WB guys, you know, that they keep signing and bringing in, you know, maybe Tony Neese is going to be his next opponent. I don't know.

1:36:53 It's not, it's not an embarrassment of riches in terms of options, whether he's a face or heel, in part because It just seems like the top guys, Cole, Punk, Danielson, are all kind of paired off. If I'm CM Punk, I don't want any part of Malachi Black right now, for instance.

1:37:09 Well, I wouldn't want any part of Malachi Black either. I'd rather not get my head kicked in.

1:37:14 Well, there is that, but as a babyface, unless you're looking to get booed, yeah.

1:37:20 Yeah, true, true. It's kind of transitional with the women a little bit. Ruby Soho and Penelope Ford, I mean, it was a decent match. I mean, you know, I'm really looking forward to the Hikaru Shida, uh, Serena deep rematch next week. That's going to be something special. Hopefully the crowd in Boston will treat it with the respect that it deserves, but you know how Boston fans can be sometimes.

1:37:45 I don't, I don't like Shida being at a qualifying match and Nyla Rose being getting the buy. Um, I mean, I, I can know they're doing, you know, Ross dresser doing current rankings, but just the totality of it. I, I will go ahead.

1:37:57 Eric.

1:37:57 Yeah.

1:37:59 Yeah. When I looked it up before they announced that it was based on the ranking system, I thought that was weird, too. So I Googled the rankings and I'm like, oh, those are the top four ranked women besides Ty Conte, who is obviously being paired up with Britt for the pay-per-view. So, I mean, I guess you may quibble with the rankings and how they mostly ignore them. But here's a case where they're actually trying to stick to the rankings to give a rhyme or reason to why those women have the buy. So I guess I'm okay with that.

1:38:28 Yeah.

1:38:29 I mean, I would, I would, I don't want to be an advocate for them following the rankings and then be like, why is she having to qualify and Nyla Rose and Nyla Rose, it's hardly like a high crime. I mean, she's been pushed and she's a former champ and all that. It's just, she'd had such a good run and it's just like, ah, just feels like, you know, Having her not advance based on the legacy of her work in Dynamite feels wrong, but whatever. It's like small detail.

1:38:51 Go ahead, Brent.

1:38:53 I did just have one question for you guys on the women's picture in general. since it seems like the, uh, in the tournament with the way it's going with the buys, it looks like Thunder Rosa and Jade Cargill are probably going to have a one-on-one match. And, you know, given that, uh, there was that sheet that Tony Khan was holding at the Jacksonville Jaguars game, um, that showed that, that showed, you know, uh, Thunder Rosa versus Jade Cargill at full gear, potentially, um, the, uh, However that matchup takes place, whether it's full gear or in the tournament, do you see Thunder Rosa, Hannah Jade, Cargill a first loss? Because to me, it makes sense because Cargill has to lose to somebody at some point.

1:39:42 Yeah.

1:39:43 And, you know, they're obviously building up Thunder Rosa to take on Britt Baker and possibly take the title from her. You know, if the rumors are to be believed, I would assume that Revolution or something, because I guess, you know, rumors are going around it's going to be a big stipulation match or something like that. So I was just wondering about your thoughts on that.

1:40:04 Yeah, the Jade Cargill arc is interesting, and so is when, you know, how big should her loss be and in what context and to whom? Um, you could imagine, you know, Britt Baker turning, you know, being, I shouldn't say turning baby face, but sort of being reframed over time into a baby face spot just to not fight the crowd.

1:40:23 And if she beat Jade Cargill, that'd be a huge moment. But do you want to feed, you know, is that the course they're on with Britt? Is that what they, how they'd want, um, you know, to give her a boost over Jade or, or like you're saying, you know, is, is it, is it more logical, um, to have Thunder Rosa get a boost from that and keep Britt heel and have Thunder as a face. Eric, go ahead, Brian, and then I'll throw it to Eric.

1:40:46 I mean, I almost think you have to put Thunder Rosa over, given how she already got pinned by Jade with that really sloppy set of chair shots in that triple threat match. That's just my thought.

1:40:59 Hogan-esque chair shots, yeah. Eric?

1:41:03 Not good.

1:41:04 Right, exactly.

1:41:06 So let's play this out. uh, if Thunder Rosa wins, she gets the belts. I thought they were supposedly saving the Thunder Rosa, Britt Baker rematch for early 2022. So then what does that do?

1:41:22 Is that, Oh, the TV or you're talking, if she wins, you're talking, if she wins the TBS belt, right?

1:41:29 Yeah.

1:41:30 So that's, yeah, that's one, you know, if Rosa wins the TBS belt, then I guess if they're really going to program her with, um, Brit, then that becomes a belt versus belt situation. If Cargill wins, it gives her something to do. Um, and it keeps her away from the, maybe the, uh, challenging Brit, right? Because you would have a heel versus heel, even though Brit is mostly, uh, cheered most of the time. Um, but then if, if Rosa loses that match and they, their next plan is to program thunder Rosa against brick Baker, you'd need to build Rosa back up from her loss. So, um, I think I agree, Bryant, with your prediction that Rosa gets her win back and probably wins that one. But I could see him going with Cargill. I wouldn't be shocked

1:42:18 at that.

1:42:19 I mean, it's possible they have Thunder Rosa beat Cargill in the tournament match, but it's not like a finals match or anything. It's possible they could have her beat Cargill but still not win the tournament.

1:42:33 Let me call up the bracket. The other thing that they talked about this was they had a Brit promo where she's trying to build heat for the match against Ty Conti. And the focal point of it was that Brit was complaining that Ty shows off her ass all the time, whether that's on social media or her cheeky ring gear that she does. That seemed very WWE to me, and I didn't like it at all, right? It wasn't giving women their own agency, and they weren't feuding over something important. I mean, it was heelish, so I guess, you know, Maybe Baker gets the pass on that, but I just felt vaguely uncomfortable by that or, you know, unsettling.

1:43:12 Can I get, Can I just bring up one more point since you just brought up WWE? This will be my last point because I know you guys are running long, so I'll hang up after this. Seeing as how you brought up WWE, given all the controversy that's happened with Charlotte Flair and Becky Lynch with that belt incident and the supposed backstage incident, argument they had and then with Charlotte just storming, with Charlotte just ignoring Vince McMahon, the gorilla position, assuming all of that's true. I got to think.

1:43:50 And I know people may disagree with me on this, but I got to think whenever Charlotte's contract expires, whenever that may be, I got to think she's AEW bound because Ric Flair is no longer with WWE, her significant others with AEW. And, you know, she's pretty much done everything in WWE that she's wanted to do. And the bottom line is Tony Khan can scratch her a check that's as big or bigger than Vince can.

1:44:18 Yeah, yeah.

1:44:20 You know, with what happened with Nia Jax and the controversy and everything, I just think she's getting fed up with them. So I think it's a, I think there's a good chance she goes to AW as soon as she gets the chance. So, uh, thank you guys for taking my call and I'll, uh, leave you for tonight.

1:44:34 Thanks, Brian. Well, if, if wrestlers in AW are communicating with wrestlers in WWE and they did a secret ballot, it's going to be your near unanimous that Tony Khan's going to get votes from the roster, not wanting Charlotte brought into that locker room. Um, You know, to say Charlotte's fed up is probably not the way that I would frame it based on what I'm hearing. I would say everybody is fed up with Charlotte. And it's been an increasing problem this year. I mean, you know, I was told by somebody on the roster, nobody wants to wrestle her. And she's just, you know, well, anyway, I'll get more into it on the color hotline tonight. Eric, your thoughts on Charlotte both. I mean, obviously, as a talent,

1:45:10 she's fantastic. She's got a presence and an aura. In history, she's a legacy star. She's done a lot to bring women's wrestling to another level. She speaks the truth on her promos. As far as that goes, the credibility can back her up, and she's super talented. She'd be an asset. But, you know, I mean, do you bring someone in? I don't know if he did due diligence on Bray Wyatt, and that's why he's not bringing him in and Braun Strowman.

1:45:34 But it's one thing to bring in the guys who you think are underutilized but are popular. It's another thing to bring in people who are seen as– difficult combative um uh uh what's what's the word when you don't listen to your insubordinate um have think they're bigger than the show they're part of are have reputation being self selfish or unpredictable um in in bad ways that are disruptive to everything else i mean do you want to bring that in eric I.

1:46:04 Mean, I have heard it reported that Andrade wants his whole family, his extended Andrade family in AEW. I guess my question would be, does Tony Khan want the extended Andrade family? Because that includes Charlotte Flair, who, you know, Tony Khan did not bring in Tessa Blanchard, even though his women's division was sucking wind for the longest period of time. And so he's, Tony Khan seems to be concerned about locker room chemistry to some extent. And Charlotte might, you know, fall into the the category of more trouble than she's worth maybe um.

1:46:39 Which is saying something but it also is what most people in wb i would venture to say would say is is how it plays out right now that she she is amazing and she's also more trouble than she's worth.

1:46:53 Yeah i don't know how many um how many years charlotte has left on her deal but um I would, my guess would be Tony Khan wouldn't be able to resist, right? As far as women go, I mean, she's a top name, you know, a top star type signing.

1:47:11 If I'm Tony, I would talk with her when it's contractually legal and find out what's going on with her. I would do my due diligence beyond being starstruck with the business opportunity and make sure you know what, you know, and obviously with Andrade there, there's some, you know, They can be good or it can be bad. You know, you can be amplifying, you know, some trouble too if you empower her more with what's going on. But, you know, I mean, it's worth getting her side of things and figuring out what's going on in her head. And, you know, I mean, but it's not just she's, you know, fed up with management. You know, it's colleagues who used to be friends with hers who don't know who she's become

1:47:48 and what's going on with her. And, you know, to the point that it's just, you know, disconcerting.

1:47:55 Yeah, it would be a really big check. He'd probably have to write to get her. So I think good to do your due diligence for the record. Thunder Rosa and Jade Cargill, if they win their quarterfinal matches, they are on the same side of the bracket. So they would be meeting in the semis. So Brian's correct. It doesn't necessarily mean that the winner has to go and win the TDS belt. So it's a little um until we see who the semis are i think it's that's a little harder to predict than the men's title shot tournament uh where it's obviously moxley and danielson meeting in.

1:48:27 The finals yeah i mean i could see nyla and ruby in the other bracket in the semis there's a lot of ways i could go i mean i don't want to play out the whole tournament here um But, yeah, there's definitely more options here than in the Eliminator Tournament, it seems, that are viable. All right, Cole, Brian, thanks.

1:48:44 Appreciate it. It was good to hear from you. We'll be talking to you as our on-site correspondent, too, next week. I'll get back to you in that email.

1:48:53 Hey, everyone.

1:48:54 Greg Parks here. You've probably heard me hosting Wrestling Night in America after pay-per-views and also co-hosting the Tuesday Flagship with Wade Keller. I also host a VIP-exclusive podcast every week called Greg Parks Out Loud. In this podcast, I delve into a single topic for around 20 minutes, perfect length for one of your daily commutes or while walking the dog. A couple of my recent episodes included a look at TNA as they move to AMC and WWE and AEW injuries for the year 2025. You can listen to VIP podcasts with a VIP membership on many platforms, including on Patreon, Spotify, the Apple Podcasts native app on iPhone and CarPlay, just about every popular iOS and Android podcast app out there, and even stream right from the

1:49:31 ad-free PWTorch VIP website. Full details on VIP membership at pwtorch.com slash govip. As an added bonus, VIP membership means you won't hear this commercial again, or any commercials, as commercial breaks are skipped right over on the VIP podcast feed, in addition to all the commercial-free VIP podcasts.

1:49:48 Check it out.

1:49:49 We'd love for you to join our community and unlock access to all our VIP-exclusive content.

1:49:59 All right, let's go next to Hilton in London, Ontario. Not England. Hinton, welcome. Thanks for holding. How are you doing? Did Hinton fall asleep? That happens sometimes when people are on hold a long time. Or he's muted.

1:50:13 He's on East Coast time.

1:50:14 Yeah.

1:50:15 All right, Hinton. We tried.

1:50:18 Can you hear me?

1:50:21 Yeah, we sure can. Hey, sometimes you got to run and get a glass of water.

1:50:24 How are you doing?

1:50:28 No, no problem.

1:50:30 Good, good. Is it okay if I talk about Rampage last night? uh sure yeah a little yeah yeah i i wanted to bring up the the post-match angle between uh puck and andrade because that really uh that really upset me and it played into into tonight's main event so um basically not one millisecond after puck one the lights went out and there's my malachi black um I thought it was exciting for the live crowd because I heard cheers. They could have been piped in. I'm not sure.

1:51:04 I kind of felt like I was in the minority here, but I felt that that defined down Pac and Andrade as kind of just undercard acts who don't really deserve as much attention once the match is over. I mean, from a booking standpoint, I'm like, it makes total sense for Cody to want to insert himself here, kind of like Triple H would, so that he could build up the energy of this really good match that Pac and Andrade just had. And I've actually, it's in this column, I kind of, I was about to write, almost Triple H-like, and then I deleted that. I'm like, no, maybe I'm getting too ahead of myself. But then I saw tonight, he basically, at the end of the match, he's putting Malachi Black in that pedigree-like position to deliver the Tiger driver, powerbomb,

1:51:50 whatever it's called. I'm like, oh, my God, he's actually going to nail a pedigree here. But I was getting a little ahead of myself. But, yeah, I thought it– how do you think this affects Pac and Andrade? I think it makes them look completely irrelevant compared to Cody, and that may have been one of the contributing factors to his reaction tonight.

1:52:15 Eric, what do you think?

1:52:17 I think that crowd was hell-bent on booing Cody from the get-go, and he could have cured cancer and saved a baby from a burning building and a cat from a tree, and I think he still would have got food. I think on Rampage they were just– I take your point. I think it's a good one that by having that post-match angle so quickly, we didn't get to bask in the glory of what ended up being a really good Pac-Andrade match. Um, on the other hand, you only get an hour and they needed to do the angle last night to air that, to set up what happened tonight.

1:52:52 So I'm, I guess from a storyline perspective, it made sense. And it seems like they're either setting up a pay-per-view tag match with Pac and Cody against Andrade in black or another TV match. Um, And so since Cody probably wants to be on the pay-per-view, I'm guessing it's on the pay-per-view. But, I mean, I guess from a booking standpoint, it made sense to me from how you book these things.

1:53:16 But the monkey and the wrench, the fly and the ointment was the fact that Cody is getting booed instead of cheered. And that's a problem they have to deal with.

1:53:26 What do you think of that, Ken?

1:53:28 Yeah.

1:53:30 I want to move on. I just want to get my points in real quick here to move on. Adam Page, I'm not sure if you talked about him tonight. He was out there, not out there, but like backstage with the Dark Order. Now, he delivered the promo of his life last week. And Eric was here. He was all, you know, he was excited about it. I was excited about it. But today, he's like, he's building up to his point. And his point is, guys, the Elite, they're going to come out in some pretty fancy Halloween costumes next week. And you better bring your A-game. That's the most important thing for us to focus on right now.

1:54:04 So what did you guys make of his performance? His go-home point right now being Halloween costumes.

1:54:11 I'm glad you brought that up. It's not great that the guy who cut one of my favorite promos in years as a baby face addressed, covered so much territory, brought everything to a crescendo, and that's their follow-up? That's their follow-up? Is him joshing around with Dark Order saying, you guys were right, and then it shifts to Halloween costumes?

1:54:35 And I know... John Silber is kind of like the cult figure and all that, but it's– I don't know. It just– yeah, it felt like the wrong week to be doing that. What do you think, Eric?

1:54:49 I mean I think the fact that Page was catching up with old friends, he said he was going to do that in that– after he won that ladder match a couple weeks ago, he– Tony Schiavone interviewed him during the first break of Roads to the Top. and he said he was going to go catch up with old friends. So he's doing what he, what he said he was going to do on that front. The problem is, yeah, I mean, he's talking about a dark order elite match.

1:55:15 That's going to be played for comedy and that they're all going to be in costumes. So I'm already low. I'm already dreading that match on next Wednesday's dynamite. Cause it's, it's, it's going to be, it's not going to be serious. It's going to be comedy. And I guess, you know, it's fine, whatever. It's the dark order, but, Um, yeah, we're, we did not certainly did not keep up the forward, forward momentum that was established last week from pages promo, uh, as they build to that, what's presumably the main event of full gear pay-per-view.

1:55:45 This goes around to, um, the question earlier about, you know, make having a centerpiece program that's we've throughout the show that, you know, is the a program. And, um, It's just that wasn't... I mean, I know it's a Saturday night show and they're going to have lower viewership and maybe we kick things into full gear. I guess I said it.

1:56:05 Starting Wednesday, you know, the build to full gear kicks into full gear come Wednesday. You shouldn't have laughed. That was lame. But no, no, I'll take it. I appreciate it. I'll take it when I can get it. But, you know, like, I just... The last week was about your world title and the challenge you've been building up who got delayed because of the baby and he caught this great promo and, like...

1:56:27 Lead with that. I mean, I know philosophically, like, hey, we're a wrestling company. We're going to put a good 15-minute wrestling match out there. It's part of a tournament. And, you know, we don't just dwell on one thing. And we're about lots of things. And I get that. But, man, in terms of storytelling and, you know, they're just– it's like when CM Punk, you know, was on Dynamite for the first time. And they booked just AW Dark level stuff before and after him. It's like, what are you doing?

1:56:54 You're trying to– pop a rating and– People are sampling the product. Put your best foot forward. What comes before and right after and right after is super important. And I thought it killed their momentum. And so, I mean, again, it's a Saturday Dynamite. I'd be harder on them if it was a Wednesday show. But, I mean, you know, still just have that cohesive major theme of what's most important.

1:57:16 And that does seem to be, you know, among the top weaknesses of an imperfect, believe it or not, AEW booking scheme.

1:57:23 Eric.

1:57:25 I think I have a bad feeling about in the back of my head about AEW momentum going into full gear for no other reason than TNT. I guess I looked it up. They're airing the NHL, the West Coast game. So the 9 p.m. Central starts, the 10 p.m. Eastern starts. And so what's happening is that. Dynamite's going to be preempted and aired on tape delay. So if you are on the West Coast or in the Mountain Time Zone, you're getting it after the NHL game is over. You're getting the NHL game in prime time because of the time delay. And so I think the Wrestling Observer reported this week that that could cost AEW 10% of their– 10% or 11% of their live audience. And that's going to be until they go over to TBS next year.

1:58:15 So that's just when AEW was building some momentum after the kind of phony baloney ratings demo battle of last Friday's Rampage show. It seems like the they're, they're stalling for, for reasons out of their control a little bit. So, um, I'm hoping they, uh, they really turn up the volume the next three weeks and, we get a hell of a full gear show in Minneapolis next month.

1:58:39 I hadn't anything else for us.

1:58:42 Yeah. Just a final point before I, uh, before I sign off here, I know you have a hotline to get to, which I look forward to listening to, um, mirror mirrors, uh, character, uh, direction, uh, So ever since he's lost, he's been trying to in his promos, he's been trying to reconcile the loss of someone who's like who genuinely thinks God has abandoned him.

1:59:01 Right.

1:59:02 Initially, I'm wondering, like, why not just attack Sammy Guevara? You're at the show, dude. But if I take off my WWE glasses, I'm like in character, it makes sense that he's. having this narcissistic heartbreak of sorts, and he's going to, you know, give God no choice but to, you know, make him his champion again. So do you see a pathway for him back to the TNT title, given that Sammy's busy with American Top Team, or do you see something different in Miro's future?

1:59:28 Yeah, it seems like they're playing kind of long ball with this, and I'm enjoying the ride, Eric. Miro's just in a category unto himself, and that can be good or bad, you know, but in this case, it's good. You know, he's he's got his own thing he's doing and it's, it's compelling. It's not eating up a lot of TV time, but on a per minute base, on a per minute basis, I think it has a high impact and yeah, you know, he's, he's good. Um, in the ring, I'm, I'm one of his biggest fans and have been like early on with his WWE work too.

1:59:57 And I know he's getting praise among his colleagues for the work he was doing at house shows and bringing along Roman Reigns. And, and I mean, he's just smart and he's high IQ in the ring and on the mic. So, I'm a fan of his, and I want to see him bring these to something that then pays off with something different than the vignettes and ends up with him higher up on the card. Because I think there's a good number of people he should leapfrog in what I think right now would be most people's roster depth chart.

2:00:25 Eric?

2:00:26 I thought it was weird because after Miro beats Eddie Kingston in the TNT title match at All Out, they did a promo the next week. to sort of recap and it made it sound like the feud wasn't over and I thought oh maybe Eddie Kingston's gonna win the belt at uh Arthur Ashe Stadium because he's from New York but then that didn't happen they didn't have another match and they don't they seem to be maybe teasing a Miro Sammy rematch except he hasn't really explicitly said that Miro and all these promos and um I me personally, I'd love to see Miro move up the card and, and get, uh, a push near the top. Cause I think he's a pretty talented, uh, in the ring and he's, he cracks me up behind the mic. So, um, better

2:01:15 than the TNT title. Let's get him a world title run. Maybe, uh, maybe he's the, um, a TV challenger for hangman page in, uh, January, early February as they, in the buildup to a revolution.

2:01:27 Or a class special. I, I would just say what Miro is doing now means more than what Kenny Omega did at the Tokyo Dome five years ago. When you're evaluating who can bring you the most viewers and give you the best mic work and seem high-end and fresh and just hitting your stride and all that, just be sure you're paying attention to what's on your TV show that all your people are seeing as opposed to what was happening five years ago across the ocean when you make your decisions. And it's not to say... Omega's not the guy to go with, but be sure you're not over, you're not putting more stock in something than you should. Um, when somebody right in front of you, you know, it's like Steve Austin when I, yes, I'm daring to do this,

2:02:11 but when Miro's a lot older than Austin, when Austin was breaking up, but, um, you know, Austin was doing great work and Vince was looking everywhere, but there, you know, and it's like, no, right here, here's your guy. And, and then he went with it, you know, but so anyway, Miro's, Miro's good. And, High end. High end.

2:02:29 Good.

2:02:30 Hinton, thanks for the call. Appreciate it.

2:02:32 Perfect. Thank you guys for taking it. See you later.

2:02:35 Sure thing.

2:02:35 Yeah.

2:02:36 Appreciate it.

2:02:38 All right.

2:02:38 We'll go to Nick in Brattleboro, and then after that, we'll wrap up with Javier.

2:02:44 Nick, welcome.

2:02:46 What stood out on Dynamite for you?

2:02:47 Hold on.

2:02:48 I'm sleeping.

2:02:49 Yeah.

2:02:53 Actually, you stole one of my... Hinton stole one of my points. I just... I was, Miro was just, I mean, he was so good tonight. You know, my bloody hands and my wife. And I just, I mean, it was just, I mean, it was like he was reciting Shakespeare and holding the skull and saying, oh, poor Yorick. I knew him.

2:03:17 I mean, it was just, it was, he's just doing such a good job. And I just, it's, I love him. I just, I think he's, I mean, he's so far ahead of Kenny right now. It's amazing. Yes, Kenny's great in the ring and stuff, but, I mean, what Miro's doing all around as a wrestler, you know, for all that means, he's far and away the best thing on WWE right now. He and Bryan Danielson are right there for me.

2:03:55 Yeah.

2:03:57 Yep.

2:04:01 One thing I was thinking, and it's not so much fantasy booking, it's just question booking, is they're going to TBS on, what, January 5th, I think it is. What if Hangman wins the title at Full Gear, and then Cody swallows his pride and goes heel? And they have the Cody-Hangman match on that first TBS show to pull, because they've got a challenge. They've got to pull all those people from TNT and make sure they're switching over to TBS to watch. And a match like that, the Babyface-Hangman against a heel Cody match, would be, I think would be a great way to do that.

2:05:01 Yeah. I mean, obviously there's so many ships in the sea that you're, you know, that, that are on course, um, uh, you know, or in barges that are on course that are kind of hard to turn. Uh, and Tony has, you know, a lot of things planned out, but if that is what he's planning, I think it sounds good.

2:05:19 If it's not what he's planning, but he can make it happen. Um, that's, that's good. I will say I'm not particularly concerned about the move from TNT to TBS. That's a parallel move. Any cable system that carries TBS carries TNT and vice versa.

2:05:34 Oh, yeah.

2:05:35 Like Fox and FS1 is a double drop. You're dropping to cable, and you're dropping to a low-end cable network. If it was Fox to USA Network, the ratings would hold up better. FS1 just isn't a major cable network. Lots of companies don't carry them, and a lot of people don't even know they have it. Um, so, and I, I, I think it's more akin to when, you know, WCW was on TBS for years and then they went on to TNT and after the first Nitro, I tell the story all the time, Kevin Sullivan, who booked that first Nitro told me at the bar afterwards, cause they were here in Bloomington at the mall of America. He's like, ah, it's going to take them like, I don't know what he said, four to eight months for them, for people

2:06:11 to find us, you know, who's doing what any good promoter does, which is set the bar low. So you exceeded, it was ridiculous. And of course they won, you know, they, they did great ratings and instantly people who knew about TBS, uh, We're able to find them. So I think the AW audience follows them. I'm not worried about that at all.

2:06:27 So my point on that is don't blow up your booking plans to hotshot something for a show that's probably going to draw within 5% of what you drew the week before, what the previous four-week average was, not accounting for holidays. I think they're going to be just fine. Eric, your thoughts on that?

2:06:42 Well, Cody has said he will never turn heel and he will never challenge for the AEW world title again. So it's a moot point. I'm going to take him at his word. But the good news is for Paige, if you're trying to establish him as a new face champion, he's certainly going to get cheered against Cody.

2:07:01 There you go. I mean, Cody doesn't need to, quote, turn heel to be matched against babyfaces and booed. So, Cody, you don't have to turn heel, but just, you know, just understand your opponents are going to be very popular for the next couple years. And we're going to pair you with Brandi on TV. We think that's a great idea.

2:07:17 And you can actually coach her as she tries to you know, challenge for the women's title, one or the other. We're on your side, Cody. Damn those fans. You know that last segment you're just listening to and the next one that you're waiting to listen to? Those can be one second apart with a VIP membership. You can unlock our commercial-free versions of our shows. PWTorch.com slash GoVIP tells you how to do it. That's PWTorch.com slash GoVIP. Options exist within the Apple Podcast app using your Apple account, through Patreon, which, by the way, you can sync up with Spotify, or just about any iOS or Android app.

2:07:55 With a full VIP membership, you can customize the feed for individual shows and clusters of shows and themes. Go to pwtorch.com slash go VIP for full details on all the options to listen commercial free and with upper tier options, unlock our VIP exclusive podcasts that run throughout the week every week.

2:08:18 And last thing, I'll let you move on to Javier. I was just really curious. Had you gotten the three-plus ratings for last weekend yet? Because I was figuring that there would be a lot of DVR action. I was just really curious.

2:08:37 No, because I get the updated numbers on the previous week's show when I get the following week's show. And I won't get that until Monday because Rampage was Friday. And that's just where my guy does a tally. So yeah, I should have that data on Monday. That'll be interesting, yeah.

2:08:54 Yeah, no, it's just, I just, it could be an even bigger win for Rampage. I just, you know, I was just curious. I'm an old television guy, so I know ratings. And just to finish off with a quick rant, I started in television business in 1980. People were complaining about the ratings in 1980. They were complaining about the ratings in 1990. They were complaining about the ratings in 2000, in 2010, in 2020. Nielsen and Arbitron, way back when, do a great job of a statistical sample. They work so hard to get their original person, household, that their sampling company picks. It is an estimate. They call them the rating estimates. The only way to get a better number is to do a census, which they could do,

2:09:53 but legally there's all sorts of problems. And whatever people say, billions and billions of advertising money, syndication money, and deciding whether a show gets another season, all that, has been based on the Nielsen ratings for 65 years. And for people to say, oh, it's all different now, they're always improving, and you just got to go with it. It's whatever it is. It's just what you said. The ratios are all still there. And it's really good numbers. They really do a good job. And with that, I will let you go.

2:10:31 Thanks and i'll also say that the that when you see a tv network saying nielsen isn't worth it isn't worth paying attention to anymore uh check the last like you know six months of their ratings because probably they put on programming that nobody wanted to watch and now they're doing what wrestling promoters have done over the years when they were putting out a product nobody wanted to watch which is say i don't believe those numbers um So, I mean, you know, but you're great to put some historical perspective on it. But, yeah, when you see headline stories, you know, this network is not paying attention to Nielsen anymore.

2:11:05 It's like, right, because nobody's watching them anymore. And the only way they can keep their job is if they throw Nielsen under the bus. But you don't hear that from other networks that are doing well.

2:11:15 So, yeah.

2:11:15 And they're also probably in contract negotiations.

2:11:18 Right, yes.

2:11:19 With Nielsen.

2:11:20 Exactly.

2:11:20 All right.

2:11:22 Thanks, Nick.

2:11:24 All right.

2:11:24 Good night.

2:11:25 Have a good weekend.

2:11:26 You too.

2:11:28 All right, we'll wrap here with Javier. Javier, it seems like it's been a while since you've been wrapped up the show with our late roundtable here. How are you doing?

2:11:38 Hey, Wade, how's it going?

2:11:39 How's it going, Eric?

2:11:40 Hey, you must be tired. All that G1, and they were in Miami for two shows last week.

2:11:47 Yeah, and I was on the Rampage Post show yesterday with Tyler Sage.

2:11:53 Yes.

2:11:54 And I mentioned that it feels like the weekend last weekend was like a year ago for me.

2:12:00 It, it, it just.

2:12:02 Feels like, cause when I was in, I, cause I told him like, man, it, I, I went about to get out and I'm like, I don't remember anything. Cause it feels like it was several weeks ago with all the stuff that was going on.

2:12:12 Yeah.

2:12:12 I feel that way.

2:12:13 I feel that way constantly.

2:12:14 However, I.

2:12:17 Can imagine when, I.

2:12:21 Am glad to know that I'm apparently.

2:12:23 Number 13 on your list.

2:12:24 Yes.

2:12:25 Yes.

2:12:25 Yep.

2:12:25 You were after, you were great. Well, cause I felt bad, you know, you know, I try to spread co-hosts out three weeks. Um, and then for a whole bunch of reasons that I won't get into, I ended up not with, not with someone locked in, uh, but possible, but not locked in and had to wait.

2:12:41 And then, yeah.

2:12:41 And then I'm like, well, you're on last night, you know, and it's not a Wade Keller show, but it still counts. And so I was like, yeah, I guess I'll, I'll bring Eric on, even though it should be another week before I even invite him.

2:12:55 Yeah, I'm still waiting for the AEW.

2:12:56 I haven't done AEW yet.

2:13:00 Well, you would have been your chance if you didn't say yes to Tyler.

2:13:02 I got a lot.

2:13:04 Of raws, man.

2:13:05 I got a lot of raws. Sometimes I think it's just punishment. We've talked a lot about Cody, but because of the rampage. I was really interested in finding out his reaction today, because what reaction he would have gotten today because of the weirdness of his reaction on Miami. Because what the on-site correspondent said about vitriol, that's what it felt like when they played the video of him getting slapped by all the trainees.

2:13:42 That's what it felt like.

2:13:43 Cause when that, they were playing that video, people were like cheering when he would get slapped. Like, you know, people were saying, you know, like it felt like they were angry at him. Uh, but then, you know, cause, uh, uh, hidden had mentioned that there were sound sweetening. Uh, it wasn't the reactions that, that you heard on TV where, you know, the, the reaction caught, you know, for the most part, the reactions caught, obviously some stuff doesn't travel well, but, um, But yeah, because when the moment happened on the Rampage show and the lights went off, we remember we basically seen it, you know, like all at once, you know, one after the other. And Andrade had been talking about, you know, that he's going to.

2:14:25 Have friends over.

2:14:26 And, you know, which was the, you know, a lucha group that's going to wrestle, you know, Penta and Ray Phoenix.

2:14:34 And.

2:14:35 Fenix.

2:14:36 The.

2:14:37 What do you want to.

2:14:38 Huh?

2:14:39 I'm just making fun of Excalibur for saying Fenix to try to correct us. Fenix.

2:14:46 Well, I do.

2:14:46 I usually say Fenix también, pero, you know, I don't know why I went the.

2:14:51 Yeah, whatever.

2:14:53 But, you know, so.

2:14:57 And then it was.

2:14:59 The Ramos came out and it turned out to be FTR, but then since it's the same night and the lights went out at the end of the match, we're thinking that, oh, well... because the friends that he's talking about, you know, there was a lot of people in the audience thought that, you know, we were expecting like Roosh or, and Roosh and Dragon Lee may be showing up when the lights came back on. But then when, you know, Andrade came out, you know, people were, you know, kind of cheering, but they were also like, okay, whose side is he on?

2:15:27 And then when he missed it, Pac, everybody booed. So it's not that people want to chant. I don't think people necessarily want to cheer Malachi Black. you know, it's just that he's so cool. They want to cheer whoever's the coolest guy, but when they're equally cool, then they'll.

2:15:43 Go with who's the baby face and who's the.

2:15:44 Uh, the heel.

2:15:46 Cause at that moment he was getting booed against pack. Then Arne Anderson came out and when Arne Anderson came out, you, uh, just like, uh, on tonight's show, you heard the, uh, uh, what was the get, get, get the Glock. Was that the, the chant?

2:16:02 So there was that chant up.

2:16:04 You're correct.

2:16:05 So there was that chant and then he did the finger.

2:16:07 Yeah.

2:16:07 So, and then the people started, and when he did the finger gun, the people started going nuts. And then that's when Cody hit the roads and then people were going nuts for Cody. When the thing went off the air and just started playing Cody's music, people were singing along like it were, like it were Judas to Cody's music.

2:16:22 So it was like such a baby face reaction for him. And then I'm like, well, I wonder if this is going to like.

2:16:29 Carry over today.

2:16:30 And apparently according to the, uh, I was like, it did not. it really did not.

2:16:37 Although when PAC came out.

2:16:40 Sorry, when Andrade came out and then, you know, there was kind of like booze and when PAC came out, there was cheers. So I think like PAC might be the one that's most over in this.

2:16:49 Whole thing as the baby face.

2:16:50 That's interesting. What do you think, Eric, on that?

2:16:53 I think Malachi Black is the most over baby face, uh, out of all four of those guys. So, um, maybe PAC is, PAC is second. And, uh, And Cody is third, and Andrade's a heel like he should be?

2:17:08 Yeah, because when he missed his pack, he got booed heavy.

2:17:15 Malachi did.

2:17:16 And then when they came out, and this was a Cody special overbooked craziness, when it looked like Andrade was coming out to help Malachi, there were boos at that point. So that's why I'm wondering, you know, and then, you know, I, I, it's just, it's just weird.

2:17:35 The whole, I don't know.

2:17:37 I don't know what to make, make out of it. Cause I think people like want to boo Cody, but then when they're confronted with something else, they kind of like, I don't know it's just uh i i want to see what what happens next week whatever time they're in next week if you know boston black and uh and and cody are involved boston yeah so uh yeah i mean i did not obviously i did not get to go to the orlando one because i had work stuff so uh if not i wouldn't i would have been there uh.

2:18:05 But um Not Boston, though.

2:18:08 I don't think you missed out on history. I mean, you know, I don't think you should feel bad. Not that it was a bad show. Just, you know, you saw enough and it's not like, oh, I missed the best one.

2:18:16 Yeah.

2:18:18 Yeah.

2:18:18 Well, and it's interesting, again, the thing that Clark Sondes made, because that was what was like that bugged me about the whole Miami thing was the fact that I hadn't, you know, I was still trying to research whether there was going to be a rampage taping on that Saturday. And like they weren't it wasn't like clear that they were going to be taping Rampage after Dynamite.

2:18:37 Yeah.

2:18:38 So it wasn't like until like the show started and they mentioned it.

2:18:41 I'm like, OK, so they are.

2:18:43 And then, you know, so I'm not surprised, you know, I'm surprised that then it was like the reverse that the correspondents had today that that, you know, they were saying that that, you know, they were expecting Rampage and they realized they're not going to get a Rampage.

2:18:55 Yeah. Yeah.

2:18:56 So I think they kind of should be clear about that. You know, maybe like even on the ticket, you know?

2:19:02 Yeah.

2:19:02 Or just have a website that actually is navigatable and informative and, you know, logical and just be like, here's what to expect. Here's what to expect. Here's what to expect. And, you know, let people know, you know, here's when we're going to start and here's how long you can expect to be here.

2:19:17 I mean, I don't know.

2:19:18 I don't know how many clicks they'd get on those links, but it'd be nice to have that information just kind of put out there.

2:19:23 That was our main issue because we were trying to figure out how much to pay for parking.

2:19:27 Oh, that's a good point.

2:19:28 Yeah.

2:19:29 You know, because the meters jumped from like, you know, you're going to be there for three hours and then it jumps to like 12 hours, like three times the amount of money.

2:19:38 Yep, yep.

2:19:39 So it was like, you know.

2:19:41 That's a good point.

2:19:41 So I'm like, you know, if they're not, yeah, so if they're going to go too long, then we're going to be, you know, we're going to have to go out and put more money in the meter.

2:19:52 But yeah.

2:19:58 Longing for some nostalgia? Or maybe you want to learn some wrestling history? Don't miss the 90s Past Cast every Friday on the PWTorch Daily Cast feed. Alex and Patrick will transport you 30 years into the past by taking you through the Torch issue from that very week. Follow news from the WWF and WCW and all the happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time as the Torch reported it 30 years ago. That's the 90s Passcast every Friday on the PWTorch daily cast feed.

2:20:30 All right, Javier, we're way past two hours and you held on for so long.

2:20:46 So I don't want to rush you too much, but kind of hit the most pertinent point or two so Eric can also, you know, get on with his life.

2:20:57 Well, I love Miro's new nickname, the God's Forsaken Champion. That works really well for me. I do think that he's going to... I mean, what I took from that promo was the fact that he's basically saying that he's just going to beat up a bunch of people, work his way to number one. And I do think that the idea isn't for the TNT title, because I think that the idea is to eventually.

2:21:23 Face for the.

2:21:24 for the, uh, the world, do they call it world title?

2:21:27 Yeah.

2:21:27 World title.

2:21:28 Um, and, uh, which I think should be make, uh, Eric happy, which is that means that, uh, him and Paige probably wins.

2:21:37 Woo.

2:21:38 You're talking Eric's language.

2:21:41 Um, So yeah, so that was that.

2:21:46 And I think that's pretty much it.

2:21:49 This show really did feel packed. I know it wasn't a very impactful show, but there came a point where I looked at the time and it felt like, oh, the show must be coming.

2:22:01 To an end.

2:22:03 Not like the WWE because it's boring and it feels like it's taking forever, but because they had covered so much ground before. with like everything that, you know, that, that, that they did that.

2:22:14 I was like, wow.

2:22:15 You know, they packed a lot into that first hour. You know, I don't, I, I, I mean, I almost think it might be too much because like punk came out and I'm like, oh yeah, that's right. We haven't seen punk yet. So is it possible that might be doing too much?

2:22:32 It's, it's been possible. They've been, that they've been doing too much for a long time, you know, but it also is what they intentionally are doing.

2:22:39 You know what I mean?

2:22:39 It, for aw to not densely pack the show rapid fire in a way that makes it difficult to remember everything that happened that's their brand you know that's intentional that is a feature not a flaw to counter program you know to counter program what wwe does in a way and and to be different than them and i think it's just you know tony's natural inclination is go go go um you know and and There was a time when it was, you know, point the camera at the ring and let the wrestlers wrestle. And now there's, you know, a lot more stuff coming in and out of breaks and more pre-taped stuff, more elbow grease, more pizzazz, more, you know, post-produced stuff. And I like that. But there's definitely times where I'm like, you know, at the end

2:23:22 of the show, I wish I had a little bit more of an idea of the main thing that I was supposed to take from it. You know, I go back to that thing I heard Kevin Dunn, you know, said earlier. You know, we want, after every WWE TV show, we want people thinking about two and a half things. You know, there's this two main things we got across and that other little thing. Everything else was just there to fill time, you know, or build to the future, you know, and lay the groundwork for something. But with AEW, it's never two and a half things. It's like, you know, 10 or 20 little things and everyone's top items are going to be different than the next person's. You know, Eric, what do you think about that? Just, I mean, it's

2:24:00 a broad, big picture topic, but.

2:24:02 Yeah, I think the groove AEW has gotten into, I mean, when they started, they would throw matches out there cold. And I always felt like a little off-put by that because it's like, well, there's no build-up to this. Why should I have any investment in the two guys who are in the ring or the two tag teams in the ring? These days, pretty much every segment on AEW is either setting up a match for TV the next week for Rampage or Dynamite. or it's furthering a feud for heading into the pay-per-view. So I think that's really good.

2:24:35 Everything has a purpose, right? If they were just doing random stuff.

2:24:37 Or it's a tournament match, which feels more random, yeah.

2:24:41 Yeah, and so I think that's a plus. My other takeaway that I don't think I've talked about tonight is tonight was sort of a couple of times where we had babyfaces being dumb. The first one was Jungle Boy. who he knew Christian was taken out by the elite a couple weeks ago. In actuality, he's wrestling on the Impact pay-per-view right now, tonight. So Jungle Boy goes out there and calls out the elite, and he doesn't have any backup. And so WWE, one of the obvious complaints is always the baby faces are dumb and they don't have any friends. And the jungle boy put himself in that position tonight. Plus the psychology was a little bit messed up. He was doing a heel thing to the hapless Brandon Cutler. Um, he was using him as bait,

2:25:34 but still a little bit, uh, weird psychology. And the other thing is sting did the same thing, right? He comes out there knowing Derby Allen isn't around and he, uh, gets beat up by the heels and he has no backup. I thought given that what we saw on Tony Khan's dance card, that there was going to be a punk, um, Wardlow match at the pay-per-view potentially that I kept waiting for Punk's music to hit right then and there and to set up Wardlow versus Punk right for the pay-per-view but it but it didn't happen instead we got Punk making the save to set up a match with the oh so exciting Bobby Fish and I think about the best thing I can say about that my excitement level is Bobby Fish has clearly hit the hair dye and

2:26:18 beard dye aisle at his local drugstore, and CM Punk still has not.

2:26:25 Yes, yes.

2:26:26 I mean, I think you could do Wardlow and Punk and have it be a match where Punk wins because MJF screws things up for Wardlow, and that's the impetus for the breakup. But also, Wardlow looks good against Punk, Punk looks good against Wardlow, and they– And then you do Wardlow and Punk together to help elevate Wardlow to a new level as a tag team against MJF and one of his remaining thugs. Just to play out a possible scenario there, I think there's still a way to get there. They took Wardlow-MJF tension from Wardlow giving him a dirty look and then seeming to completely forgive him to now actually verbally confronting him and getting a BS explanation from MJF and then grumbling about that. So, progress.

2:27:07 It would have made sense. It makes sense, though, for Punk to have made the save for Sting because Punk, when he first came in, obviously he was with against Darby and Sting. And then they were sort of loosely allied there. So there's an easy path to get there. And I imagine we're going to see it in the next three weeks.

2:27:23 Yeah.

2:27:23 And there's a lot of yeah, there's a lot of things going on at once. And not every wrestler has to be just like in WWE focused on only one other wrestler for three months at a time. And you know, there's logic to that, but it's also nice when you don't exactly know that the one wrestler Punk's going to be wrestling for the next three months. You know, that maybe there's going to be a few other people he goes through and a Rampage match here and this there. So, but yeah, the fascination with Bobby Fish at this moment is a bit of a surprise to me. You know, he's a good hand, but I just, I don't know.

2:27:58 I mean, he's in a jobber to the stars position. He's sort of like what Daniel Garcia was for August and part of September. Now Bobby Fish is in that role.

2:28:06 Yeah, but I don't know. I mean, I'm not like super down on Fish. I'm just like, really? It's not that they're pushing him. It's just he's getting TV time and they have this deep roster. And I don't know. I'd have him as sort of the gate. Either do more with him where he's part of a significant faction.

2:28:23 And I'm not advocating for that. But that's better than just treating him like people– are interested in him on his own. And I just, he's, he's good. I'm not like, but I just don't, I think they're giving him more time and attention than just about even the biggest Bobby Fish fan would have anticipated he'd get here in AW. Javier, anything else you want to close with?

2:28:44 Well, I totally agree with you on that, Wade. I just have a soft spot for Bobby Fish. I'd like just go with it, man. Go with it for as long as it lasts.

2:28:53 But, but yeah.

2:28:55 So, yeah, looking forward to the hotline because I want to hear the gossip on the whole Charlotte and Becky thing.

2:29:02 Yes, one of the.

2:29:03 Reasons we got to wrap up. I still have energy to do a decent job with that.

2:29:08 Thanks.

2:29:08 Yeah, I'm like, hey, can I stay on and hear you in the background?

2:29:12 No.

2:29:16 Talk to you later.

2:29:17 Thanks, Tommy.

2:29:17 Appreciate it.

2:29:18 Have a good day.

2:29:18 Yeah, you too.

2:29:22 All right.

2:29:22 Let's see. All right, we got a long email. I'm not going to read it. I'll save it for another show because we ran so long here. I did have this queued up because it covers some other territory. But, Eric, we will wrap up there. Thank you so much. You are always my first choice, even if you're not the first person that I reach out to.

2:29:41 I think I appreciate that.

2:29:45 No, this was fun. This was a good show, lots of good calls, on-site correspondent. We did get some good emails, and one in particular here I'm not going to get to, but I'm giving a shout-out to Ed for his thoughtful email. I'll find a way to get to it one way or the other another time.

2:30:00 Eric, yeah, thanks.

2:30:00 We've got lots of good stuff in, and I appreciate your calling an audible here on the weekend to be with me here.

2:30:09 Thank you.

2:30:09 Take care.

2:30:10 Yep, you too.

2:30:44 Your time is valuable. Go VIP and listen to our shows commercial-free. A nice streamlined listening experience. pwtorch.com slash govip for full details on a commercial-free listening experience. And with a full VIP membership, you can create custom feeds for individual shows or groups of shows by theme and also unlock nearly four decades of archives and access our ad-free website with VIP exclusive content. pwtorch.com slash govip Your time is valuable, and that's one of the reasons we offer VIP membership, pwtorch.com slash govip. You can participate in the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast by emailing your question or topic to wadekellerpodcast at gmail.com. You can also participate in the Wade Keller Post Shows by emailing wadekellerpostshow at gmail.com

2:31:31 during or right after Raw, Dynamite, or SmackDown. Let your voice, let your opinions be heard on our shows via email, wadekellerpodcast at gmail.com for the flagship and wadekellerpostshow at gmail.com for our post shows. It's next-level coverage that you come to expect from the PW Torch brand. No AI, no rookie perspectives, no unfounded rumors, no clickbait, no deceptive headlines, just high-quality writing, breaking news, and fascinating flashbacks every day at pwtorch.com. Pull yourself away from the vacuous social media experience that I know many of you regret once you get lost in it for minutes, if not hours at a time, and settle in for high-quality PW Torch-branded wrestling coverage.

2:32:13 Admit it, you love Nick Barbatti when he co-hosts with me on the Wade Keller Post shows. Well, now you can listen to him every week on the Nicky's Club, a VIP exclusive podcast. Here's Nick to tell you more.

2:32:23 Hey, wrestling fans. It's Nick Barbatti, and I'm back with the Nicky's Club, the place where the family of Nicky's comes together for big laughs and sharp takes on WWE. From WrestleMania rumors to surprise returns, I got you covered. The Nicky's Club, where the wrestling feels like the coolest club in town.

2:32:36 Nick Barbatti wants to be part of your pro wrestling life every week, so... Why not let him? GoVIP. PWTorch.com slash GoVIP for full details on signing up. We're compatible with Patreon, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and just about any other iOS or Android app out there. You can also stream directly from our ad-free VIP website. The Nicky's Club, waiting for you every week at PWTorch VIP. Did you know that you can enjoy commercial-free versions of all of your favorite Wade Keller podcasts and PWTorch Daily Casts? Just go to patreon.com, search PWTorch, and subscribe to a VIP membership tier.

2:33:12 You get a seven-day free trial, by the way, to kick the tires a bit and see if you like the service. And then sync it with Spotify, and you can listen to commercial-free versions of our free shows like the Wade Keller Post Shows, the Wade Keller Podcast Flagship, our flashbacks, and also the PWTorch Daily Cast lineup. Again, all commercial-free, a nice streamlined listening experience. But with third-tier membership, you can also unlock all the VIP podcasts, including Everything with Rich and Wade, The Fix with Todd Martin that I host with Todd every week, the Wade Keller News Bulletin's post-pay-per-view roundtables, and an array of other VIP-exclusive podcasts with different hosts and different themes. Check out the lineup.

2:33:47 Go to Patreon and search PWTorch and subscribe and sync it up with Spotify or stay within the Patreon ecosystem. Either way works. Go to Patreon and start your seven day free trial. If you're listening to us on the Apple podcast app on Spotify or any other app that allows you to rate our podcast, please take a moment to give us a five star rating. It really helps us in the algorithm and helps them know that you recommend us to others. Just look for a place to rate the show on Spotify and Apple podcasts or wherever you're listening to our shows. And please click that five star rating. And of course, thank you so much for listening.