WWE SMACKDOWN POST-SHOW (10/23) - Keller & Hubbard discuss Trick getting WWE Title match and whether he's ready yet, Punk-Owens, Cody-Orton

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1:25 slash govip. Now, PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show. It's time to talk this week's WWE Friday Night Smackdown. Well, Derek, we could start in a number of places. I think there's a list of a handful or a few similar items of note from tonight's SmackDown. Let's just start with the Randy Orton, Cody Rhodes segment they announced. At the end of it, we're going to get a one-on-one last man standing match between them at Crown Jewel. Notable that they never said in Riyadh or Saudi Arabia. They have not removed Riyadh from the graphic, but that's it. I mean, they haven't said where it's going to be. They did announce a start time. as usual is noon Eastern. So they haven't changed.

2:20 There's nothing to read into, but if they were committed to Saudi Arabia, I think they would have sent that signal tonight, but they got two weeks decisions with all the bombings of airports and you know, the hostilities going on there in that region. It's a, I talked about it in the Wade Keller hotline for VIP members earlier today.

2:35 It's an ongoing issue. Ari Emanuel spoke about it and said, as of this point, it's on. but I think the, as of this point is the part that, that needs more emphasis. So with that said, just a little note on that. I thought it was an interesting segment with Randy and Cody. I'm really interested to get your thoughts.

2:53 Cause Randy came out and as usual gets the default cheer of the legend fans think, Oh, it's our time to boo Cody. Cause Randy's so cool. Then Cody comes out and I thought cut an effective promo that stood up to Randy. And by the end, Randy then, finally, as he often does at the very end, actually did some heel mannerisms and tactics didn't want to match, you know, kind of plays the, you know, a low, low version of, of a chicken shit heel. And the crowd seemed to be by the end more on Cody side. So tell me about what you observed there. And if that matches, if my thoughts match yours.

3:27 Yes.

3:29 I was surprised at how passionate the fans were behind Randy Orton when he came out. Cause it seems like he has been the, quote unquote, like default heel, but hasn't been leaning that way to give the audience an indication that yes, Bumi, rabidly, but you've kind of sensed at times that the crowd's kind of, they want him to be more of the aggressor and by not being the aggressor, he's playing more of a heel role. I think that's what was definitely on display tonight. But like you mentioned, I think the goal was whether the underlying goal is to make Randy boot and Cody cheered. I think what they're actually looking at is creating tension where people want to see him square off. And if that was the goal of tonight's segment mission accomplished.

4:21 So is there anticipation at this point for this match? So that's a generic question. And is it, is it, If not, are they mitigating the lack of interest in it through some compelling back and forth and history and the punt kick storyline? Or do you think they actually have reached the point where, yeah, people kind of know like match wise, it's not going to be great. depending on what you look for in a match. But, you know, they're not great opponents for each other at this point in their careers in terms of having an exciting match.

4:52 But has the story kind of raised it up now in part because of the pump kick aspect and in part because of how it is Cody standing up to kind of a big brother of his, in a sense, in the business?

5:03 I like how they.

5:04 Have two story threads running through this feud. One is their shared history and past.

5:12 And the next is the punts.

5:13 And they've introduced the punts From WrestleMania, I mean, if you talk about long-term storytelling, the punt was introduced at WrestleMania, the conclusion, well, actually after the match was over, and that's kind of the thread that still ties them together along with their shared history. And so I think the tell is going to be when they tease the punt, the last man standing match, which you know will be done multiple times, when that crowd comes up for it and anticipates it, That's the reason that you introduced that thread because it.

5:48 Builds more drama. It also builds more.

5:51 Finality for a conclusion and it builds more tension between the competitors. So I think that is very smart storytelling. That's one of those aspects that WWE just does better than everybody else.

6:06 To get into a broader topic on the journey that Cody is on right now as a QB1, Randy threw out a bunch of things that Cody calls himself that you would say if you were a baby face insulting heel. Um, so there's, that was kind of in the middle of the promo. Um, Cody's response was a good turning point to it, but I'm curious what you think about how Cody is handling the, what's been kind of a rocky couple of years, but right now I feel like he's, um, feels like he has some permission now to come across stronger, um, more of an alpha, less apologetic. And I, I, I'll color my question. I think he's pulling it off.

6:46 Amen.

6:47 And I think the indication or the evidence to suggest that that is the case is it's almost a weekly occurrence now when he comes out, you get the scattered boos. But by the end of the promo, it feels like he's winning more of the people over by showing that aggression and that edge.

7:05 And that passion.

7:07 And so that's got to be a win every single time he does it. because they're ready to flip and he never lets them flip. How he comes out of this, I think will be the indicator of it's been successful for him as a character moving forward.

7:20 What is he doing that's working?

7:24 I think it's his tone and his tenor.

7:26 And when he picks up that aggression and he directs, I love how in the promos tonight, he's inviting the crowd to participate in different ways.

7:36 That's not just sing along chats.

7:38 Like, What is, it's almost like someone who's, you know, the MC for an event. What is the most dangerous letters in the alphabet?

7:46 RKO. He lets the crowd, he invites them to participate.

7:50 But also doesn't invite them to participate where they get to take over or derail in what he's saying. I think he's a master conductor in how he is conducting that audience.

8:01 Week to week now.

8:03 And I think a lot of it too, is I think the best version of Cody Rhodes on the mic is not the, what do you want to talk about?

8:11 It's the fired up.

8:12 I got to prove myself and I'm going to do it and stand up for myself because people get behind that. And I think he's doing that significantly consistently.

8:23 Well, it's been a consistent consistently and slowly, uh, But effectively, and I think part of what worked is I think it's sneaking up on people that there is in the absence of irritants, I guess, you know, that phrase with Cody, like, he's not, hey, what do you want to talk about? And no, let me do some, some self referential meta thing.

8:43 And then I say, this is what I'm supposed to talk about this. He's he's removed that. I mean, I think it worked and was charming. And it was effective, you know, a few years ago. But I think people, I think Randy, as much as I have a problem with Randy not being a heel in good faith, and I think kind of having one foot in the water of let me get Cody over as a baby face, but the other foot is I'm a legend, I won't change, and I kind of want to sell my merch and be popular still. Whether that's his decision or a collective decision or what, the effect is the same. So I think it's actually in a way been good for Cody because he has to stand up for himself and if Randy's not going to look out for him, if the

9:21 promo writers, the producers who produce the segments aren't going to look out for Cody by having Randy completely steer away from anything that would get fans to cheer him, it actually has forced Cody to step up and stand up for himself more, drop some of the bits, be more serious. And it doesn't come across to me Like it's try hard. Like I think I like he's managing to pull it. He's still coming out in a suit like like try hard would be. I'm not going to wear the suit anymore. I'm going to be totally inauthentic.

9:52 And it's it's a very dated reference. But when Greg ganya got under the auspices of sergeant slaughter greg ganya went from a guy who just wore black trunks and black boots with a below average physique burn got the legendary bring on your son um to his credit largely stayed in the division um but he had, he reinvented himself.

10:12 And so he trained with camouflage and became, and he had a headband and he was disheveled and all of that. And it was just try hard. I mean, I was a kid watching that and I'm like, you know, I'm sorry, I'm not buying that Greg, some bad-ass because he's training with Sergeant slaughter on some made up military camp wearing camouflage and a headband. Now Cody's didn't do that. He's still himself, but he's himself face finding himself that he has to not be the, the, the, the subservient little brother.

10:39 He's standing up to the big brother. Whatever the storyline is, in a general vibe sense, I think that's the intent, and I think it's working.

10:47 Yeah, I think, to me, it does not feel forced. And also, a way to describe it, if Cody's color is red, he's not becoming blue or purple. He's just scarlet. He's a different shade of the same color. And I think fans do appreciate that because that's where authenticity.

11:08 And I know a lot of.

11:09 People on this podcast and others have questioned his authenticity. But when you are and show something enough that there's a consistency in how you display yourself, that becomes an authentic character in time.

11:25 And that is what I think he is.

11:27 Yep.

11:27 I think that's well put.

11:29 Very much so.

11:30 Let's take a moment to talk about Randy. I think he's less important because I think... I don't know if less important or what. Randy's just being Randy for the most part. And he'll just continue to be Randy. Cody is a bigger star. He has just said in interviews he wants to wrestle. He signed his last WWE contract, but it's a long one. He wants to wrestle like seven more years, unless Hollywood comes calling, and then he'll do part-time or wrestle more movies. He said he definitely doesn't want to wrestle until he's past age 50 or into his 50s. Well, what that means is he's got basically, he's not even halfway done with his WWE journey then, you know? And so, and he's a top star and he doesn't wrestle in a way where it'll matter a lot.

12:09 Cause he can have a heel run at him. If he physically slows down, it's not going to affect him as much in terms of just being what it is that makes him a star. So this it's more important for Cody to come out of this stronger. And so far, I think he is Randy less so, but how, how, where are you on Randy's character in his place as a, a guy several years older than Cody. I don't know if winding down his career is the right way to put it. I don't sense that, but obviously he's more near the end and he's more of a, certainly not a novelty act, but a special attraction legend role at this point.

12:45 Yeah, I think this is, we're seeing about as close to a heel run, last heel run in Randy Orton that they're capable of and that he's willing to perform. And I think you kind of sense that where he does still have some of his Hill mannerisms like you.

13:02 And I think I was hesitant to jump on.

13:04 This train of it being half-hearted or way there. Now I'm going to agree with you. It does feel half-hearted halfway there. There is other things he could do to ensure that he was getting booed. And I don't think he's really even trying because he knows that after this run, he's going to lose to Cody probably go away for a while. And when he comes back, they're going to cheer him like a returning hero. That's where you get the legacy attraction one to two months a year for as long as he wants to go. And by God, I think he's earned it at this time. So I think he's in a good place for where he is in his career and what he really has left to offer the rest of the wrestling business.

13:46 And I think before we, fully judge or even condemn how Randy has been in this storyline. And there's a level of condemnation I think is deserved. And Cody's vented about it. Um, you know, in the sense that, uh, we'll bother of repeat in the chat says Cody's always had to overcome some unnecessary and frankly, unfair obstacles. Um, and, and Randy has been one of them cause you know, that promo he cut leading into their big singles match at summer slam. It was not, um, it was not doing Cody any favors to, um, have him, um, to have Cody get cheered. And it just felt like Randy was at his own world. And that's been the theme with the promo buildup for their matches. So I guess with, with Randy, I think he's in the end going to

14:32 end up being the big brother to, to Cody, who feels like there's sort of a mission that's been accomplished, whether it was a mission he set out to actually be, wrestle or not, or if that mission was set out from the beginning, or he's just kind of happy where things ended up. Either way, I think that's going to be the end point. The reason I'm struggling, because I want to phrase this right, that in the end, Randy is going to look at wherever this lands as even if he loses and gets punt kicked, I don't think he's going to be angry at Cody and out for revenge.

15:11 I think he's going to accept that he brought something out of Cody that he's proud of, even if it didn't end the way that he initially wanted it to, I guess is my, my way to get it, my way to express that.

15:23 Yeah.

15:23 Yeah.

15:24 I think he sees himself in Cody's journey as a rite of passage and he has to pat in by punting Randy in the head.

15:32 That is the rite of passage to Cody's next stage of his career.

15:36 Yes.

15:36 Yep.

15:38 Okay.

15:39 Well, let's pause and introduce ourselves. And then move on to some other topics on the show, because there was a lot on the show that is developed some stories. I would say this. I don't know. Derek, what do you think this was a blockbuster newsworthy Smackdown? I don't think it was that. But I feel like for a show like this, they gave us like three, four, five kind of topics to dig into.

16:04 It felt like a setup show, not a run-and-play show. And the setup getting there, which I think getting there, you've kind of seen how they set the table.

16:14 Next week, you got Trick and Sammy. That was set up this week.

16:18 In two weeks, you got KO and Punk.

16:23 That was set up this week. And then the Crown Jewel.

16:28 Developments as well so they're saying how things look but sometimes when you set things up it just feels like you're running in place yeah and then you almost feel bad for the audience who went there to see everything setting up on the nights they're not in attendance yeah they gave you enough to be excited about what you will see in the future.

16:45 Yep by the way i it just i said i said summer style at wrestlemania right when i said cody randy the promo that Randy caught that was undercutting Cody was a bill to the rest of me a match because they didn't have enough. I just got time has flown by in terms of the Randy Cody feud because of the gap. So I just I just wanted to correct that on the fly here because I was like, did I say SummerSlam? I know it's WrestleMania. So anyway, because that was it was the it was I was critical of Randy's promo leading into WrestleMania, right? Not not one since then, because that's the it was way back when I still had hope Randy was going to go heel and Cody was going to have that clear runway to be cheered.

17:21 It's the promo.

17:22 I don't remember as well because it was the promo the week before they introduced Pat McAfee, which is, which is.

17:28 When I was in Spain.

17:29 So on the plane home, I saw this plat Pat McAfee on my television. I was like, what are they doing here? That's my whole plane ride from Spain was thinking, wow, why is Pat involved in this now? Yeah.

17:42 And I know that was, it was far enough back into the Sunday night's main event matches, not the promo I'm talking about. Um, it was the one leading into WrestleMania. So anyway, um, Yeah, so, okay, let's pause and introduce ourselves here. Your time is valuable. Go VIP and listen to our shows commercial-free. A nice streamlined listening experience. pwtorch.com slash govip for full details on a commercial-free listening experience.

18:06 And with a full VIP membership, you can create custom feeds for individual shows or groups of shows by theme and also unlock nearly four decades of archives and access our ad-free website with VIP exclusive content. pwtorch.com slash govip. Your time is valuable, and that's one of the reasons we offer VIP membership, pwtorch.com slash govip. This is the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show on Friday, October 23rd, 2026.

18:32 I'm Wade Keller, host of the show, editor, publisher, founder of Pro Wrestling Torch, the weekly newsletter, the website, pwtorch.com. And also the host of various podcasts, the Wade Keller Post Shows, following Raw, Dynamite, and SmackDown, along with the Wade Keller Podcast Flagship, which is, if you're watching us on YouTube, our flagship episode every Tuesday is audio only, podcast only, not on camera. You must subscribe for free by searching Wade Keller in your podcast app. Spotify, Apple Podcasts, any iOS or Android app. You can stream it from our website, PWTorch also. So search Wade Keller in your podcast app, and you'll see the blue logo pop up.

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20:05 That's PWTorchVIPinfo.com. That includes my start-to-finish rundowns of Raw, Dynamite, and SmackDown every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday night. I actually record that after these post-shows. But from what I hear, and it makes sense, people listen to the recap, which is like 15, 20 minutes, straight run through of the show with added commentary and analysis of a lot of little things we don't get into here. And if they haven't seen the TV show or they just want a refresher or my thoughts on it, And then they settle in for the analysis here. So that is one of the perks of VIP membership. Again, full details at pwtorchvipinfo.com.

20:40 Many ways to sign up, including through Patreon, which links up with Spotify. You can sign up with your Apple account using your iPhone. And you can also get our full VIP membership with access to the VIP forum, nearly 40 years of archives, an ad-free website, customizable podcast feed, much more with our full vip membership all those options are laid out at pwtorchvipinfo.com all right so we are here to talk smackdown tonight and as derek laid out we have a lot more uh to get into and uh but first let's uh do introductions and uh bring uh uh derek back into the conversation uh derek Hubbard is my co-host tonight. I was thrown off because you just typed in Derek on your name plate. And I was like, wait, what's his last name? For a 10th

21:25 of a second. I was like, are you just going by your first name now? But Derek Hubbard, PwChurch contributor, joins me today.

21:30 Derek, welcome. Good to have you back.

21:32 Thanks.

21:33 It's funny you mentioned it because my normal job is I'm a high school teacher.

21:37 So all my students don't know my first name. They just call me Hubbard. It's my first name. So it was weird.

21:42 I went to the gym. I see my students at the gym all the time. Now they all work at the front desk. And one of them called me Derek. And it just felt so weird to have one of my former students call me by my first name. I wasn't offended. I was just like, oh, yeah, that is my name. But I'm only known as that in some avenues.

22:03 So it was interesting.

22:05 We've all been through that as students where it's weird when you find out the first name of your teacher because it makes them seem like a regular person and teachers, as you know, Derek, aren't regular people to kids. They're authority figures and they have the formal Mr. Or Ms.

22:18 Name.

22:20 Yeah, it's, it's, it's, I've been doing it long enough now, 12 years that the transition is in full, but the first three years were very confusing to me because no one had ever said my last name that many times in my life.

22:34 That's funny.

22:34 Yeah, I get it. It feels like an old, old TV show where the kids would come over to the, their friend's house and they would refer to the parents as Mr. Or Mrs. Which I don't think happens anymore. Maybe it does in certain, certain cities or parts of the country or something or countries.

22:49 I don't know.

22:50 Everything's much more informal though.

22:52 All right.

22:53 Um, cool.

22:54 All right.

22:55 So if, if you're watching us live, by the way, on YouTube, you can join the chat. We've got a live chat going, uh, some new people jumping in. Uh, we, uh, Welcome, YouTube. Join the conversation if you're watching us live. And if you want to email us instead, that's always an option, especially if you're not watching us live on YouTube after the show, but you want to get your thoughts or question or comment in. WadeKellerPostShow at gmail.com is the way to go. You can also be a caller on the show.

23:21 Darrell said that, I think Darrell, somebody said the link might not be working. There's a hot link and a manual link. One of them is probably right in my TV report. I must not have pasted one of them correctly. If that's the case, um, the one I sent Derek works. So I know that that works. Crofton's waiting. So no, he clicked the right link. So something is out there that works. I'll double check that while, uh, while we're talking here. Um, but look for that link in my TV report. It changes with every show. So you can, um, always be a caller. If you want to turn your camera off, you can audio only is fine. Um, just like our blog talk radio days when people called up on the phone, six, four, six, I was going to

23:55 see if I could remember the old phone number offhand.

23:57 No, I can't.

23:58 Um, I said it so many times over the years, but now that I'm on the spot, I can't remember it. But when I, when I listened to the old shows and I kept the number, I'm like, ah, the memories. It's like your old childhood phone number growing up.

24:07 All right.

24:08 Crofton, by the way, speaking of him says in the chat, nothing wrong with going with just your first name.

24:13 Yeah.

24:13 I mean, it depends on what your first name is. If it's too common, it can be confusing. Like Derek, we can't, we are, cause we have Derek Mitchell. We've got Derek Hubbard. That can be confusing.

24:24 So yeah.

24:26 I used to go by Derek from Utah when I used to come to your blog talk radio.

24:30 I was Derek from Utah. Because I thought I would probably be the only Derek from Utah, which was probably not the case.

24:37 It might have been. Did we have a different Derek? I know I got confused with Ian from Tennessee. I thought he was the same person. And then we had an Ian from Tennessee in like the early two thousands. And then a different Ian showed up like seven years ago or something like that as a caller. And I remember saying, Oh, you're one of our earliest callers. And Ian was like kind of confused when I said that.

24:53 And then Jason Paul heard that and he goes, no, I think it's actually a different Ian. And I was like, Oh wow. I am embarrassed not knowing that, but without the face and the block talk days and the little gap in time, I didn't know. All right. Anyway, um, let's get back to, uh, SmackDown. So, um, we, uh, Oh, let's just talk about the KOC on punk thing. Fresh in my mind. Um, they sat down with Nick Aldis in a pre-recorded segment from earlier in the day. He announced that they'd be wrestling at crown jewel, right? Not SmackDown in two weeks, a crown jewel.

25:22 And I think it is SmackDown. I think it's SmackDown in Brooklyn.

25:25 Oh, that's right.

25:26 Yes. Yep.

25:27 Yeah.

25:28 They, they threw it off at us. I was worried I was going to screw it up and I did. So that one is going to be on USA network SmackDown in two weeks. And they, he just said, Hey, no more fighting, but if you got anything else to say to each other, say it. They went back and forth. It was familiar territory. 20 years ago, we didn't like each other in the locker room. Kevin Owens says, I don't want to do anything. I don't want to have anything to do with you. Punk goes, hey, we've never had dinner. Almost like, give me a chance. And KO cut him off and goes, I heard enough about you from other people. I don't want to even try to be your friend. And then Punk says, he's antagonizing me.

26:01 And KO says he's a baby. So we got the usual back and forth. But it feels like it's grounded in a reality they're able to pull from and channel.

26:09 It worked.

26:11 I don't love that these are two wrestlers we kind of want to like, and we like them, I think, as a fan. I think fans like them for very similar reasons. And now you're kind of uncomfortably watching them not like each other, even though they both have similar traits that made you really like them in the first place.

26:28 So I'm still, it was a compelling segment to watch. But as I often say, compelling doesn't mean you make money. Compelling is just sort of this ephemeral thing that gets people excited in the moment. But if you step back and go, are these two feuding with each other? Good for each of them going forward beyond just it's a way to occupy them for a couple months. I'm still not sure. So I'm going to admit I'm interested in their match. I'm glad they're having a match. I'm glad they're having a segment. Selfishly, but I don't know business-wise if ultimately it's not just another face-versus-face back and forth that it's fun to watch, but you're still kind of having to feel bad like feel bad about choosing sides

27:08 or not want to choose sides. Derek, how do you feel about that?

27:10 About the same way.

27:11 I would say as for the segment itself, I love that it was prerecorded, but it wasn't overproduced, which because this is kind of a gritty view that's based in reality. I think if they overproduced it, I think it would, it would even feel the tone would be so off of what they're trying to convey that it would cause like dissonance.

27:33 Like, I don't know what, but I love the fact that they were talking over each other.

27:37 It felt like people arguing in a room with a guy standing and Nick Aldis is a imposing figure standing in between them. So they didn't throw it. And that's what they were going for. And that's what I felt as for your explanation of two guys, you kind of like who are fighting and talking down about each other.

27:57 I think most fans kind of feel that way, but they also feel the same way that you said, we.

28:01 Do kind of want to see a fight. We just want to see a fight that.

28:04 On the other side of the fight, we can still both like get both guys. And if they, if they swim in the, in that middle lane, I think it can come out where even if begrudgingly they earn each other's respect, I think they'll both be in a good place onto the next feud and whatever they do.

28:24 Who's winning. I mean, it, this is sort of beside the point, but I think it's worth talking about. Do you think one of them is getting in more shots, scoring more points? Cause we've had a lot of, let's just keep track of point scoring and promos, you know, with all with, you know, Drew McIntyre, CM Punk, Roman Reigns, Cody Rhodes. Like there's just so much of that going on where you're like, okay, well, let's just talk about who's scoring more points. Did CM Punk outdo his, the guy he's standing opposite of throwing insults. Um, it's part of the analysis and it's kind of fun. Um, it's part of something, like I said, in a macro sense, I'm not a fan of, and I hope they move away from, but, and as John said, uh, welcome to

29:00 the chat, John. Um, he's talking about Cody Orton, but it applies here. I don't just want to be entertained. I want to be captivated. Um, so I think there's a level of captivation seeing these two tear into each other and seem genuinely, um, like they're not, bands of each other and haven't been for a very long time i don't want to budge on it um but it is one of but i also think sort of like going back to roxena i think there is a little bit of a legit like sense of oh i kind of in the end want to protect my brand and be the better verbal i want to win the joust the verbal jousting um so do you think someone is.

29:37 I think so i think kevin owens owens is winning because his brand of sarcasm works with me so like the little smart alec things that he says are winning with me and then punk loses points because there's nothing more annoying in the world that when someone tries to act mature and yet they're less mature than everybody else.

29:57 And so a PM CM Punk tonight was playing like the mature guy, like, why don't we sit.

30:02 Down and eat cop drink coffee? I'm like, brother, you.

30:05 Don't drink coffee with anybody. You don't like, don't lie to us. To me, that comes across as insincere, which when your character has always been based on its sincerity and realness, I think that that's, that's like someone with a glass house throwing bricks, you know, that's not how it works.

30:23 So to me, I think Kevin Owens is winning. If someone was a.

30:27 Bigger CM Punk fan, I would see how they could see it the complete opposite way. It's really the lens in which you're viewing their confrontation.

30:38 I agree with you. Yeah, I think, and I think we've seen that with CM Punk all along. If you're more of a CM Punk fan, not every time, but whoever he's been jousting with verbally, you go, Oh, CM Punk won clearly if you're a CM Punk fan, but Oh, the other guy scored more in punk exposed all the reasons I don't like him. And so clearly he lost depending on if you're a punk fan or not. And so I think we're, like you said, you know, you're, you're admitting you're colored. Your, your interpretation is colored by being more of a fan of chaos style of, of, I don't know, that's a snarkiness and sarcasm and, and wit.

31:12 And I'm, I'm with you on that. I mean, I tend to, enjoy and not along more to Kevin Owens and get more of kind of a pleasant kick out of his verbal skills. But that doesn't mean I'm anti-punk. I just think when the two are opposite of, you know, face it off, that's what we get.

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32:07 Derek Mitchell says punk and kale is like watching two parents fighting and who to root for. Cause I'm a K cause I'm a kale fan, but as much as punk gets on my nerves, I'm still a fan of his too.

32:15 Yeah.

32:18 Before we move on from this, macro big picture question, why is WWE doing this so often? Do you agree they're doing it often? Let's just establish a premise. You don't have to agree with the premise. And then why are they doing it? I'm curious what your thought, because certainly I've talked a lot about, is it a philosophy change?

32:33 Is it happenstance? Is it obliviousness? Is it fancying themselves doing something more modern and forward-leaning with the times? Is it they have so many people at the top who are going to wrestle each other at this stage. And they, and there's some fresh matchups like this one and they just want to do it. They want to check that box and say, we did it. Even if it's not convenient with the heel face dynamic, um, or there, a lot of people are just, you know, whether they admit it or not protecting their merch and they don't want to go full fledged deal. They don't want to turn people.

33:04 They just want to do these matches. So I think it's a, I think it's a combination of all those things, but subtract or add and weigh those options.

33:12 Well, I think you said the key ad word there was too, T-O-O. Too often is what we're saying. But I do think it is a product of circumstance where we're seeing guys not play definitively one role or the other. They're the guys who have that connection, that longstanding, in some cases, almost a legacy connection with the audience. And they don't want to portray that connection by altering what people know them as. And I think like a good example is like, kudos to Sami Zayn, but Sami Zayn is doing everything in his power to get booed. And he's getting booed in a way where it doesn't feel like he's, you mentioned the.

33:53 Word, a tryhard.

33:54 He's just finding unique ways to get under people's skin. Kevin Owens, if he tries that same thing because of the wit and the sarcasm, I think he would still get cheered. So is turning Kevin Owens' heel by having him not be all of those characteristics that have connected with the audience for the last 10 years, is that worth it to WWE?

34:18 I don't know. Is it worth it to Kevin Owens? Absolutely not.

34:22 Randy Orton, I think you could say almost the same thing. People are connected to his music. They're connected to his RKO. They're connected to his glances. They're connected to his moveset. They're connected to everything about him.

34:37 That's not by accident. He's had to work damn hard at getting to that level.

34:42 So why can I see why a guy like Randy Orton would be hesitant to betray that at this stage of his career? I can sympathize with that. You know, when you think of a guy who's gotten over to the level of Randy Orton, That was not just, I know people like.

34:58 Say that he was chosen or he was gifted all these things.

35:03 His performance in the ring, his attention to nuance, everything he has done for the last 20 years is finally paying off to where the guy can have matches with that reaction by doing very little.

35:16 That's equity.

35:18 And so those guys who have built that equity, I can see why they are tentative to do away with it. They've built it. They've, they've milked it. They've cultivated it. They've got it to where it's at. They don't want to cut it down or trim it. But do I think WWE kind of has an obligation to, in some cases make those hard decisions?

35:42 Yes.

35:43 And it looks like they're not willing to at this stage. So I hope that kind of answers your question of what my perspective is.

35:49 For sure. I mean, it's, it's wrestlers with equity and, and, um, uh, the ability to say no or steer things in a certain way to protect themselves. And they have that autonomy built up, but they can do it. And so they're using that, whether it's overtly and not in a way that is going to cause controversy or seem like you're refusing to do what your boss asks of you, but kind of steer things in a suggestive way. And it's kind of working. And so you end up with kind of that muddled, a story that draws more of a muddled fan response where people are torn. And so you can say, well, I don't blame the wrestler because you'd have to know they're like literally just being a jerk about it behind the scenes. And I don't know that

36:43 a lot of wrestlers have that leverage these days. I think they're just being accommodated. But the question then is, is it ultimately worth doing? Even if we say it's too much, I think you can say they're doing it too often, but the follow-up to that would be, yes, they're doing it too often, so there's something negative ultimately that's coming out of doing it this often, but the absence of doing these matches is actually worse than a slightly less effective version that isn't on the table for the reasons you said, which is we don't want wrestlers inauthentically manufacturing that are short-term or undercut the legacy they built up, their merch money, their bond with the fans.

37:27 And so it's not like WWE's not, you could argue they're aware they're getting a lesser version of what this could be, but the reality is it's the only one realistically that can be, and they'd rather do it in a compromised way than not do it at all. And I don't know where I vote on that. My tendency is to think I would I would steer away from doing it as often. I'd make some hard calls to not do it as often. I think that's ultimately what I would say. But I get each one individually. I think you can justify for the reasons I laid out.

37:55 Totally agree.

37:56 I also think that there is a fear because of the past when they have tried like the past. Arch type example is Steve Austin was this major over baby face who wanted to go Hill. So WWE let him do it. And everybody knows that was a lesser version of Steve Austin that we got for that entire year. And we only had two years of his career left.

38:21 Right? So that was a.

38:22 Wasted opportunity and a wasted period for WWE in a lot of ways. So I can see if CM Punk went up to Paul Levesque and said, I want to turn heel, Paul Levesque would be like, hey, let's pump the brakes.

38:39 It's working right now.

38:41 If you change, is that going to work or is it actually going to be more of a hindrance for the baby faces you work with. Cause there's nothing worse than when you're a baby face and you're working against somebody who's supposed to be a heel and they're actually getting cheered while they're doing everything that is supposed to get booed. That's a bad situation. And we've seen that when they've taken the, when they've taken those chances and sometimes those chances don't work. So sometimes you just ride, you ride the car that you're, you're used to driving because you know, it gets.

39:13 You from point A to point B.

39:16 And that fear of the unknown might be causing what we're seeing now with that hesitance to change the guys at the main, the main stage, the main higher level of the card.

39:27 Yeah.

39:27 I mean, there's an argument. If you tried it full fledged turn Roman Reince, any baby face who's against him is going to be, is going to look less popular than their push and how they're framed. And because a certain percentage of fans will cheer Roman. Now you could say, well, that didn't happen with Penta. It kind of didn't happen with LA night. It probably wouldn't happen with Oba Femi.

39:48 If the story is told the right way, And I think it, I think the brain trust behind that match and, you know, Paul Heyman is going to be there, you know, off camera, if not, even if he's not part of the storyline on air anymore, kind of steering and helping out working with Lubeck on that. Cause he knows both characters intricately and he's worked with both of them. Um, I just sort of trust that they'd be able to get, Oh, but 98% cheered. Um, So I have more faith in the booking to do it, but I get your point there that, that like there's some wrestlers who are just at a certain stage where they're just, they're at a point where they are what they are. And if you turn them performatively manufacture it and they still get cheered

40:25 while trying to get food, it actually makes the baby face look, it's embarrassing for the baby face.

40:30 Go ahead.

40:30 Yeah. I do think I do have more trust in Roman Reigns though.

40:34 Cause you, you gave the evidence of the match against Penta and, and the match against LA night, both are, which in these periods where he's working this shade of gray kind of convoluted just by his ability in the ring and the way that he has mastered doing the Romans reigns main event match. It was not by accident that Penta got the cheers that he got in Mexico city at that level that he got. That match was designed to get Penta Penta, those moments, those moments, near falls that momentum. And I, and I, sometimes, you know, when people talk about Roman reigns, they'll criticize the fact that he slows it down to a methodical level at the early stages of the match.

41:19 And to me, I just look at it like, credit to.

41:21 Him because by laying that foundation, mocking the fans, mocking your opponent in a heel fashion, even if they cheered you when you came out to the ring, by the end of the match with Penta, by the end of the match with LA Knight, because of the work that he was putting in the ring, that crowd was all the way for his opponent to win. That's a mastering at a level that very few people would be comfortable trying, let alone very few people being able to execute at that.

41:51 Yeah, I mean, he's best in the industry at steering an audience. And I think it's kind of like what I think Randy Orton is trying to pull off is I am being authentic Randy Orton, but I'm getting enough of what needs to be done for my opponent and the match in the moment to get the heat we want. But it doesn't come across like he has to change drastically.

42:21 It's a change to a certain extent, but you can also buy when he's a little nastier, more heelish. It's because he's kind of irked by the context of the moment, but he kind of returns to the normal level in the next situation, like with the 9-4-6. In my report on the King of the Ring match, or the Money in the Bank match, excuse me, on the last pay-per-view, I said another stellar Reigns-style match, which is to say he created maximum drama out of an industry standard-setting efficiency, which I admire greatly. and appreciate that's a format that is much more traditional and timelessly effective than a lot of the overly dense high spot centric main event matches of the modern era his body language is selling between

42:59 moves his milking of every moment is a model for wrestlers even if they have more tricks in the bag and are younger and more flashy and then i added that was also probably night's best match i think that's kind of along the lines of what you're saying with with roman is you can say, oh, he's not doing that many moves and the pace is too slow. And by the way, there's times the pace is too slow.

43:17 You can have both. You can be a master. I don't think the LA Knight one had that as much, but there are times where it's like, okay, let's just shed four minutes off this match and please respect our time.

43:27 The Jey Uso Roman Reigns match is the example where the format did not work. And I think that was the boringest main event that he has ever wrestled. Yep.

43:36 Yeah.

43:37 Is that on Jay or is that on the structure of the match?

43:40 Both.

43:40 But I think a lot of it was their overconfidence and taking the audience down, leaving them down so long without giving them reasons to come up in the bulk of the match that when they tried to get them to come up by the end, they were already tired.

43:56 Yeah.

43:57 People new to the show should know Derek is an ex-wrestler. He's worked. How many matches or how many years did you work? Roughly?

44:05 I think, you know, I used to back in the day, I had a spreadsheet for how many matches I had, but I think I'm between three and four hundred probably.

44:13 Wow.

44:15 So when you're listening to him talk, he's bringing in ring perspective to all the kind of the science of ring psychology. Um, having, having done it. And I think there's real value in being the intended audience and evaluating how it works. You know, that's the seat most of us are in. Uh, but obviously there's a different perspective and I seek it out all the time by text and phone call with people. I'm like, you know, like who botched that move, you know, whose fault was it?

44:40 If I can't tell. And usually wrestlers go, ah, yeah, that was, you can see what the shift here, there was a lack of confidence or, you know, whatever. And so that's the stuff that, that I, always go to wrestlers and try to ask. And I want to be fair in my analysis. So it's, it's good when you bring up some of the things that you notice. So people are noticing that it comes from actual entering experience.

44:57 If you're new to the show. Okay. Let's see. We brought up Sammy opening segment with Sammy tonight with the interaction, ultimately with trick Williams and that set up a match for next week. Smackdown, right?

45:16 Yes.

45:17 Yes.

45:18 I'm pretty confident that, but like, so we got next week, SmackDown SmackDown in two weeks, plus a crown jewel, all being, uh, all being thrown at us. It was like, uh, you know, where's Excalibur to speed talk us through all this. Um, so yeah, so Ray Phoenix out there too. It led to a, a planned tag match, um, with trick in Ray Phoenix against, uh, Sammy and Johnny Gargano. So I want to talk about the opening segment. And the build to trick and Sammy and then trick announcing later backstage that he just came out of Nick Aldis's office and got news that he would get a match next week for the title. So we can talk about that. But also less important. We talk about the main event going from two on two to three on three. But start, Derek,

45:58 with that opening segment.

46:01 My biggest takeaway for it was and this was the case last week as well. maybe it was two weeks ago, but trick, I think it was last week. Trick Williams is just a lot more serious on the mic. There's none of the goofy stuff. I think it helps that Yachty's not out there kind of yucking it up, but it's just, it's a lot more main event style. I want to be the champion style promo and he's cut some of the silly phrases. I mean, I appreciate there was no mention of gingerbread man or anything frivolous or silly about this promo, but, And then after he delivers his serious lines, Sammy and I'll credit him. I've said this before. I think he's the mic man of the year for 2026. I think he's in a league of

46:46 his own. He's just he's liquid gold on that mic right now. He's just everything he's doing is just so verbally convincing that I believe that he believes that everything that.

46:58 Comes out of his mouth. So I thought it was effective as a setup for the tag match.

47:04 And also a setup for next week's main event.

47:09 It's next level coverage that you come to expect from the PW Torch brand. No AI, no rookie perspectives, no unfounded rumors, no clickbait, no deceptive headlines, just high quality writing, breaking news, and fascinating flashbacks every day at pwtorch.com. Pull yourself away from the vacuous social media experience that I know many of you regret once you get lost in it for minutes, if not hours at a time and settle in for high quality PW torch branded wrestling coverage is what, what happens next week, by the way, people are asking too, what happens with Cody and Randy? What happens?

47:43 We kind of, I think we might have a better idea with that, but KO and punk, what's the finish to that? There's a lot of matches that are promoting where it's like, yeah, what, yeah. Do you think it follows a formula of some sort of interference, at least something else? So let's stick with trick Sammy first.

47:56 Yes.

47:56 I think it will be, I think Sammy's going to win. I hope Sammy wins, but mostly I just don't think trick's ready to be the champion.

48:04 Right.

48:05 And I don't think the time's right. I don't think the fans are ready for him to be the champion yet. You want to see the ride with trick and he's not at that, that upper level of the ride. He's not at the top of the rollercoaster yet.

48:16 It wouldn't make sense to do a trick enrollment at crown jewel either.

48:20 No, it makes sense, but it's one of those matches where even though I don't expect the like less than a few percent, that Trick has a chance winning, if they can have a good enough match and they can get the fans to buy, which if you're watching on your television, kind of gets you to buy it as well, then it's successful. So if you get two of those, Sammy's definitely good enough. I think some of Trick's best matches were against Sammy, and Sammy's ability to plan a match, I think is.

48:53 second to none right now.

48:55 Very, very good, dramatic, high energy where it needs to be, but not excessive in any way. He's definitely mastered that. So I think it will be a good match. Sammy's going to get out with the victory, but I don't think it will be without shenanigans. Yeah.

49:12 I don't think trick should lose clean to Sammy. Cause I don't think Sammy's the type of champion who needs to win clean to continue on the path that Sammy's on i won't advocate against clean finishes ever but sometimes i think it's excusable to not do one and this would be a case where you can do a clean i mean if you want to show sammy's better than trick and it gives him a little credibility going into roman i'm not against but i think you can certainly get away with sammy cheating to beat trick. If you want to protect trick a little, and in a sense also protect Sammy taking shortcuts, but then sort of, you know, denying it or ignoring it.

49:46 I would do a quick one finish, you know, like the pin out of nowhere, because when you match them up, what's, what's Sammy's X factor over trick is wrestling ability and his wrestling know-how. So if he can, you know, get an over eager baby face to attack him and then sneak up with a roll up where if it's anything that that's not a school boy because that's done way too much. And Sammy's got a bigger arsenal of roll-up pins, roll up, you know, rolling prawn hole, hold the rope.

50:12 Get the quick van. And then he gets to say that he beat trick Williams. I think that's just as effective as, as the interference finish.

50:20 You could also, speaking of interference finishes, have Johnny Gargano help Sammy win and then make his case that that should earn him points with sammy that maybe leads to another title shot or something there's there's enough kind of moving parts you can that's another another possibility there yeah i don't i don't think they're going to want to to be trapped into doing roman versus trick i think they want to save that if they're going to do it not do a short-term one-off would be awkward for trick and roman it goes to the thing of would trick get booed against roman without a big story um or do you want roman boot if he's moving into survivor series in the 946 war game so It just doesn't make sense to me that they'll do that. So

50:56 I can't, it's hard to imagine unless they do a quick trick title change right back, having trick win. So it's just a matter of how does Sammy win or do they even worse do a no contest for WBQ or something like that? Apparently the new rule is if we're all in the aisle, we just call off the match.

51:11 That was weird. Especially if you're running out of TV time. Exactly. Yeah. Just fight in the aisle. We won't do the match. It's fine.

51:17 Yeah.

51:18 Imagine if they applied that rule consistently, there'd be like half the matches would just be thrown out. There's so many times. Um, that matches, I guess earlier it was a street fight. So that doesn't count, but there's times where the fight starts in the aisle and the referee stores order and wrestler throws another wrestler in the ring and they go to it.

51:33 Anyway.

51:35 Um, I won't, uh, harp on the lack of consistency in a DVDs execution of these things. Um, going back to, um, cause Crofton S he's, he's on hold, but who do you think wins with KO and punk? Like what's the match there or what's the finish there? What options are there that you like?

51:50 I like KO going over because I don't think Punk needs it. And I don't know how much KO needs it, but I think he would benefit more from a win over CM Punk than Punk benefiting from a win over KO.

52:03 Yeah, I'd like to see that too, especially if we're going to head to KO and Sami in a high-profile, spotlight, well-built match. I don't think that's off the table to go back to that.

52:19 And it's weird to say because we've seen it so many times, but every time I see it, I said, I.

52:24 Would be down with one more. And I'm definitely down for one more.

52:28 Yeah.

52:28 Yeah. The context is different too.

52:30 The context is a lot different than the last time they fought, which Sammy was the baby face. Kale was the heel. And it was like a hardcore match. I think they use thumbtacks, which was kind of out of the blue. I think it was an elimination chamber or something before. I think it was Kale's last match before he went on. injury hiatus.

52:49 I'm pretty sure.

52:50 All right.

52:52 Well, let's bring our first caller into the show and we'll go to Crofton. Crofton, welcome.

52:59 Hey, Mr. Keller.

53:01 Uh, how are you?

53:03 Good.

53:03 If you're not a fan of Crofton, we've got Jason D from Australia up next. So everybody stay tuned. How do you like that Crofton? Thank you.

53:11 Thank you. Oh, what did you put underneath me?

53:13 Wade?

53:14 Not as smart as Derek.

53:15 That's not out of control of that.

53:17 That is not a really nice thing to do, but I definitely am not as smart as Derek. So I, I, I do, I do agree with that, but, uh, I just, uh, Mr. Hubbard, just, Returning to a topic of conversation from earlier, I just wanted to share something about CM Punk because you were both talking about CM Punk and Kevin Owens in the segment in the back. And I have been a longtime CM Punk fan. He was actually like one of my favorites during a dark period for me in wrestling, not being as invested into it. When he was gone, I had fond memories. When he came back, I was very, very excited about Um, I think that he, his match with Roman Reigns at WrestleMania was one of the best matches of his career. Um, that said, uh, I have

54:10 noticed that just, and it was in the segment that I noticed it, that I am kind of sick of CM Punk. And I was a, as I said, big, big fan. And there's something about this past calendar year and waited. I think it's the point that, even though it culminated in a great match, him and Roman tearing each other down for months and months or whatever length of time that was. And then he comes back after he's gone for a while to like, you know, screw Sammy, who we all know I was heavily invested in. He was the guest, you know, surprise opponent for Sammy on Raw in his first go around as champion. And then since then, just the way that he, he holds himself, feels like very full of himself. I feel like he

55:02 would be easy to turn. I think the breadcrumbs have been laid. It's not so much a question as just sharing that as a fan, for me, he's, he is losing me a bit as a, as a baby face. And I'm not sure other people feel that way, but if so, maybe the opportunity is there for him to become a heel. I don't think KO can afford to lose a, This match, it's his first big feud back from this injury hiatus. I feel like he's always been defined down by guys like Roman Reigns, where he always loses to him at the Royal Rumble, that sort of thing.

55:37 KO never winning the big one. I feel like if he loses again here, it's going to reposition him as a B-plus player.

55:49 Derek, what do you think?

55:52 I mentioned, I think the win means more for Kevin than the loss does for CM Punk. And I think that's what you're kind of saying, Crofton, is if KO is going to be a top-level main event SmackDown guy.

56:06 This helps him.

56:07 CM Punk, if he loses, he's still a top-level SmackDown guy. So I would give the victory to KO. As for your willingness to boo CM Punk, I've always had a willingness to boo him because he's never been my favorite. But I often feel like how many people are willing to boo CM Punk? And I don't have the answer, but I suspect not as many who are willing to cheer him no matter what.

56:36 And I think with. Punk, you know, we have to look at, well, really, in KO2, we have to look at what are their plans for them. I mean, we can sit here without the knowledge of where they want to be come Rumble, WrestleMania, and say, here's what I think they should do. But we should reserve the right to revise our opinion based on, oh, I see they did this because they wanted to protect him or have this crisis of confidence. Maybe Punk loses clean, but it's not to give KO boost as much as it is to put Punk in a condition of, A crisis of confidence that leads to him turning heel.

57:07 Whatever.

57:08 There can be all kinds of things that happen that should add some caution to any certitude about whether what they did is right or wrong or what we're speculating they could do is right or wrong. So I just want to throw that out. out there as a possibility.

57:21 Yeah. Well, I think, and that's a great point way, because I remember when, uh, Seth Rollins beat Brown breaker, semi clean in the cage match. Everyone was like, well, why would they do that? And then it was revealed because Seth Rollins is going to face Roman Reigns.

57:35 Good example.

57:36 So I think like, what is next for both guys on the docket, especially with WrestleMania, not too far away. Like it's, it's, you can see it in the distance, in the distant landscape. I think that's got to be a consideration as well.

57:51 Yep.

57:52 I just think on the punk thing, I was one of those fans that would never boo him. I just think that the authenticity that you talked about earlier has been chipping away, chipping away. And I hate to be. Harp on like stuff like this because i know hard work goes into it but his new physique this fact that he is now like you know taking taking the gym really seriously punk used to be kind of like the counterpoint to those type types of guys and now he is one of those types of guys he used to be the counterpoint to like the corporate you know uh bodybuilder type and now he's sort of becoming it on, on all angles and visually. And so I think subconsciously this is like, and I'm not, I'm not saying that

58:48 I speak for every punk fan. I'm just saying that I think that, that his baby face run may have a best before date. And they may, you know, they may be heading to it. So that's, that was all I was trying to try to point out on that. Just a way to your muted voice.

59:10 Yeah, sorry about that. I want to interrupt or cut you off, although I should do it with my mic on. Read a couple comments from the chat, then you can pivot to a new thing. John Pooim, I guess Pooim, says, I don't love Punk. I don't hate him either. Just never got the hype, really. I do respect his work on the mic and in the ring, though. And I think there's a lot of people in that camp. I mean, Punk is, yep, yep. I mean, you can go, okay, I get why people like him, but it says something about them. Not good or bad. It's just that's the type of kind of caustic, self-assured character that resonates with some people and other people find it outputting. But I think everybody obviously respects how consistent and certain of who

59:54 he is, he is. And, you know, there's something admirable about that, even if, you know, in real life, you're like, yeah, but my God, you know, what about that behind the scenes thing and that behind the scenes thing, which of course, Kevin Owens alludes to a little bit, but I think they're actually, by the way, I think they're walking a line.

1:00:09 They're not getting too super meta. you know, and bringing like the bucks, a W Tony Khan stuff in, which I think is, is good. I don't think a W I don't think WWE wants to incorporate that into a storyline and seem like they're trying to exploit it. I don't think punk for his brand. It's good to bring that up again. And so let's just leapfrog back to ROH 20 years ago, or the Indy scene 20 years ago, I should say both.

1:00:31 All right.

1:00:32 King of the North says, why would I possibly see that punk versus kale match graphic for a TV show and think it'll have a clean finish. Yeah, I mean, that's WWE's fault.

1:00:44 Yeah, Derek?

1:00:46 I don't see reason for interference, though. I mean, there's no reason for Sami Zayn to interfere. He's got no stake in it. They, there's no reason for Johnny Gargano to interfere.

1:00:58 So I expect a clean finish.

1:01:00 I don't think there's a, unless there's a rematch, if there's a rematch, then I definitely think you could get a convoluted finish, especially if you're going to work towards a rematch with a step. Otherwise, I think this is a, this is a match. You can easily do a clean finish and we should all be happy with it.

1:01:15 If we get it.

1:01:17 Yes.

1:01:17 No matter who you're a fan. Well, if, if punk pins, Kevin Owens clean, you can be bad. If you're a KO fan.

1:01:23 Yeah.

1:01:24 I mean, you can, or vice versa. I, you know, you can make the case the other way too.

1:01:27 I think don't throw out the phrase.

1:01:29 They buried KO doesn't bury anybody. Yep.

1:01:34 Good point. You're right.

1:01:35 It's all about how it happens and how it's framed afterwards and what it leads to and what happens next. I think the comment is partially, although it's specific to KO and punk and you're rebutting that Derek. And I get that there is something about, Oh, they're giving away a match on TV and, It's WWE. Why should I believe we'll actually get a finish in it? And that is a problem. If you're WWE, you don't want people thinking that because they become disinvested in emotionally in it and you draw less money with it. If you do all these cop-out finishes that can be justified in the moment, but you're not looking at the long-term effect of doing it.

1:02:15 Longing for some nostalgia, or maybe you want to learn some wrestling history. Don't miss the 90s Past Cast every Friday on the PWTorch Daily Cast feed. Alex and Patrick will transport you 30 years into the past by taking you through the Torch issue from that very week. Follow news from the WWF and WCW and all the happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time as the Torch reported it 30 years ago. That's the 90s Past Cast every Friday on the PWTorch Daily Cast feed.

1:02:55 I think one or two other comments here in the chat, and then we'll throw back to Crofton. Mark Paschetti says, if Punk is turning heel, he'll take it. If he isn't, then KO is.

1:03:08 All right.

1:03:09 Derek Mitchell says, I've always been a Punk fan, but his feud with Roman and Kevin Owens made me root more for Roman and KO than Punk.

1:03:16 Interesting.

1:03:17 Yeah.

1:03:18 All right.

1:03:19 Crofton, back to you.

1:03:20 Yeah.

1:03:20 Just one last thing, which is on the entire segment in the back. And just everything they've been doing with KO and Punk because Orton and Cody have a blood feud in which- all the agents have to get out and keep them apart, and they're watching them, KO and Punk just seem to run into each other in the back and make sarcastic remarks. And all this treats it like, oh, we've got to keep this in line, and now we've got to be in this black room. It feels like neither of them actually really want this match, and that all this is the one who wants it to make money.

1:03:55 And the two others are like, you know, like I was 20 years ago. What's your big deal?

1:03:58 What's your big deal? Well, I guess I'll fight you if I have to.

1:04:01 Well, I guess I'll fight you if I have to. Like neither, neither of them really seem to want to match. And so that feels weird to me. There was a lot of screwing people out of title shots, but that happened weeks ago. And like they have to remind us of it. But like it feels like the feud needs a little bit more vitriol before it becomes a, oh, we can't they can't be in the same room together type situation, which it feels like it's a long way from.

1:04:28 So maybe there you're right that there'll be multiple other matches with steps or something like that, because this was I found it the whole thing kind of strange.

1:04:37 Derek, do you think they did enough to add to what Crofton said to remind people of what's happening without explaining it in too much detail where it just turns into an expository promo where, you know, there's a reference to the Sami Zayn-Kevin Owens title match on SmackDown. Was it, I guess, a month ago now? And where Punk interfered.

1:05:00 And so they're referring to that. And then they're talking about Toronto and all that. Is it enough to just kind of trigger those memories, even if a fan might've missed a week or not seen, or should they have some sort of to cover what Crofton is going to don't even want to face each other. Maybe visually create a video package that kind of reminds people of what led us here. Cause a lot of people have busy lives or following a lot of sports or watching a lot of wrestling shows. And since it doesn't feel like these people even want to match and these two want to match and there's not a clear stake, you know, with Cody and Orton, you have that with trick and Sammy, you have it a titles on the line. Would you

1:05:33 package the hype for this differently?

1:05:36 So I remembered what they were talking about. It's hard to take my glasses and my perspective off and see it that way until that you introduced it. But I think that's the blessing and having this match in two weeks, because that's what they can do next.

1:05:49 That's what I was. That's what I'm thinking.

1:05:51 Yeah.

1:05:51 And then if you, and then you can remind us and give us the visuals to go with all the mentions to properly hype the match. So I think timeframe wise, I think they're in a good place. Yeah. Okay.

1:06:04 Um, Just pivoting to the wrestling on this show, it's always fun when Derek's on to hear his thoughts on this. It was loaded with women's matches this week. In fact, aside from the main event, once they cut that other tag team match, I think it was all women's matches aside from that. And I thought it was interesting that they had essentially a women's title match before the championship as their first match. Then they had a blood feud, essentially a street fight. And then at the end, they closed up with the tag team championships once. Where they actually changed hands. So it made me like compare all the wrestlers. And we've had a lot of sort of discussions on the forum recently about the effectiveness of both NXT,

1:06:58 the Performance Center. And and it made me look at like some of the wrestlers that. there's a lot of the women wrestlers that have just only been through the performance center. But I thought to my eyes, the Blake Monroe, Julia street fight felt like, like, aside from some contrivances like the mirror in the back and that sort of thing felt like an actual, like they were trying to hurt each other. Things look good. Things look clean. Then by contrast, it felt like the, the Chelsea Roxy match, like, especially with all the interference and, even the EO running up on Raquel and Raquel looked like she was doing gymnastics.

1:07:44 And I don't, I don't, I don't know. Like it felt, it felt rough yet. It was the main mat. It was the title match. And then this was a lower card match. So just seeing them together like this. And then of course the tag, the tag team match, I was just curious, Derek, notably for like, from your eyes, which of those three matches did you think, um, Did best, and who would you single out, and where did you feel that maybe it was a little bit rougher?

1:08:12 I think they all hit my level mark for acceptable and a little above acceptable. Some things that just pointed out to me, first of all, I'm glad that we're getting to see Chelsea Green actually wrestle normal matches.

1:08:27 Mm-hmm. without gimmicks or anything. And I think it's really important for the next stages of her feud and the expected turn with Tiffany Stratton is I talk a lot about connection when I talk about wrestlers. Chelsea is connected as a character. She is not connected in the ring.

1:08:44 And you can't connect in the ring if people don't know what your moves are.

1:08:47 They don't know what to come up for. They don't know what to go down for.

1:08:51 And so by having these type of matches where you're getting fans familiar with her move set I think what you're allowing people to do is the only reason that countering a move means anything or teasing a move means anything is that people know what it is there cannot be surprise without expectation you got to create the expectation by actually landing your moves I also appreciate that Chelsea's trying some things like her hot tag for the last few weeks was her hot tagger comeback was Japanese arm drag, Japanese arm drag into the ropes, knees, and then the sliding bulldog. Today, she didn't do that because the last time she did it didn't look that good. So today was a basic comeback, clothesline, clothesline. pushed her into the ropes,

1:09:35 knees to the back, then her little sliding flat liner thing. So I think she's trying to develop a move set that the fans are familiar with. And that's not always like the perfect, I mean, you're working through it. It's a working plan that you're trying in front of an audience without a house show loop. That's kind of tough to do, but she passed anyways. Roxanne's a good opponent to pass with. As for Julia and Blake Monroe, It was good.

1:10:05 It was fine.

1:10:07 I think Blake actually introduced some character aspects into her performance, which were missing in NXT. I thought I was really intrigued when Blake Monroe came to NXT and was disappointed slash surprised how she didn't stand out. She just fit in. And a lot of women like JC Janes is a better worker than Blake Monroe is. Her foot works better, her bumps are cleaner, her moves look better. And just because she doesn't have a stardom background, people.

1:10:39 Don't want to accept that. I'm sorry, it doesn't matter.

1:10:43 But today, I think Blake, she had some impact to her offense. That running shotgun dropkick with Julia into the corner looked really good. And the one thing I will say that I think made the match that you're talking about, Crofton, stand out to you, and it stood out to me as well, is, and I don't want to just say it's women, but a lot of wrestlers, it feels like they're afraid of contact. So when someone runs at a dropkick with them, instead of leaning in where you're giving somebody to hit and it's actually safer, they back up.

1:11:15 And if you back up, just like putting your chest forward gives them a target. Putting your chest back, they have to reach with their feet and kick you in the face. So a lot of like the bad stuff that we see that either looks off or dangerous is because people are afraid of contact. Julia and Blake are both not afraid of contact. And when you have two people who are not afraid of contact where they don't have to work soft with each other and there's trust, that's where you get the best result. And I think that's why the action in that match stood out more than the others. As for the tag match, I like what Tatum Paxley's doing. I think her And in my column that I'll release next week that I'm writing right

1:11:59 now about creepy characters, the one thing I love about Tatum Paxley is she could have easily been just.

1:12:05 Another pretty face who's athletic in NXT.

1:12:09 Once she developed her character, she developed a move set that fits that character. She has mannerisms after everything she hits that fit the character and accentuate the move. And even though she was in a tag match, she did that great tonight. She did her step up in Seguri and then she does like the weird pause thing that gets the reaction from the crowd.

1:12:31 That's not familiar with her yet. That's allowing them to connect. It's bringing them into the match.

1:12:37 And she gets that, which is why I think if given a chance, she'll go further than Sol Ruka because she's harvested that her attention to detail. It's not just hitting moves. It's hitting moves that fit your style, fit your character. And then you get those accents at the beginning and end of them that allow people to anticipate and react to them at a different level. You get more out of it. And I think she's doing good there.

1:13:05 And B-Fab, I thought, was just smoother in the ring than she often is tonight. She carried a bulk of that tag match, which is surprising. Meechan was on the apron for most of the time. Usually it's the opposite way. But I think B-Fab's bumps were smooth and her movements were a lot better than usual. So in my book, they all passed. They all did well.

1:13:26 Let me throw a few chat comments up as Crofton, you brought up the topic and Derek was talking about this. Start with Derek Mitchell with a super chat. Thank you, Derek. As always, generosity is much appreciated. King of the super chats here. I'm not asking Blake Monroe to dress like she's about to participate in a bunkhouse stampede, but she dressed like she was about to work a shift I think.

1:13:48 That's part of her character though, that I actually appreciate. I don't know if this is the correct expression, but femme fatale or whatever, how they say it, where she looks beautiful, but she's dangerous. I kind of like that about Blake Monroe, but to each their own.

1:14:03 Another super chat from Derek. We'll go right to it. Thank you again, Derek, very much. Congrats to BFAB and Meechan. This is the 41st time the women's tag team titles have changed hands since Since since 1991.

1:14:16 Oh, wait.

1:14:17 No.

1:14:17 Since 2019.

1:14:20 Is that a real stat? We got to fact check that.

1:14:23 I don't think they're I mean, I don't think he's usually doesn't bring sarcasm to these. Usually he brings facts.

1:14:29 My God.

1:14:30 I mean, OK, so that's seven years. So seven times six is 42. So that's a title change on average every two months.

1:14:37 I buy that.

1:14:40 Well, when you put it like that, 41 title matches, women's title matches on television since 2019.

1:14:50 Yeah.

1:14:51 Do you guys think there was going to be a title change in that match? Cause it caught me, but, but what's the, there's a term, right? When, when, when there's a heel team or a heel wrestler that loses it to a face wrestler, just to transfer the titles to another set of heels, um, because uh that's what transitional champion transitional champ but i i thought there was like a anyway but but uh they were they were heels uh the the fatal influence had the belts alexa tatum win them and then then it moves it over to jade cargo's faction i was surprised just because uh not because I think that a transfer of the women's tag titles is a big deal, but because B-Fab and Meechan did not strike me as people that like, they

1:15:43 strike me as lower card wrestlers that are there supporting Jade Cargill's act. So for them to get the titles, I thought that was a big deal. So Derek, your point about like B-Fab improving, like I'm not sure if this is, somebody noticing it or them being recognized for the good work that they're doing. But it was very surprising to me that they took the.

1:16:03 Votes real quick. Cole called it Jade and company. Like if you're about to win the tag titles, you'd think he had mentioned all three of their names. He went Jade and company when referring to the buildup at the backstory.

1:16:13 Yeah. I think what the setup is, is this is the female. This is the skeleton of the female war games match they're setting up. So I think that's why you do the tag title change. is you're kind of laying the foundation, the groundwork, but they're going to have to pick up the pace. Otherwise it's going to feel like it has in the past. I think almost every year they've done the war games.

1:16:36 One of the.

1:16:37 Matches has felt like a grand design and the other matches felt like we better hurry and throw something together. This one feels like it's the kind of thrown together one with the exception of they have been telling that story with Charlotte Tatum and Alexa since SummerSlam. So there's at least some thought going into it.

1:17:00 And it's always the women's match. Like the one that's the grand design is the bloodline match every year. It's always the women's match that is pulled together at the last minute. So if there's any sort of thought, I would appreciate it.

1:17:15 I would appreciate just having a men's and a women's on alternate years or do men two out of three years and do women when it's called for and don't cheapen the gimmick and don't force it. Did you know that you can enjoy commercial-free versions of all of your favorite Wade Keller podcasts and PWTorch daily casts on Spotify?

1:17:33 Just go to patreon.com, search PWTorch, and subscribe to a VIP membership tier. You get a seven-day free trial, by the way, to kick the tires a bit and see if you like the service. And then sync it with Spotify, and you can listen to commercial-free versions of our free shows, like the Wade Keller post shows, the Wade Keller podcast flagship, our flashbacks, and also the PWTorch daily cast lineup. Again, all commercial-free, a nice streamlined listening experience. But with third-tier membership, you can also unlock all the VIP podcasts, including Everything with Rich and Wade, The Fix with Todd Martin that I host with Todd every week, the Wade Keller News Bulletin's post-pay-per-view roundtables, and an array of other VIP-exclusive podcasts

1:18:10 with different hosts and different themes. Check out the lineup. Go to Patreon and search PWTorch and subscribe and sync it up with Spotify or stay within the Patreon ecosystem. Either way works. Go to Patreon and start your seven-day free trial. A couple other chat comments here. First of all, Goodfella says, the Kabuki Warriors' longest reign as women's champs was 171 days. 100 days TV time. So I guess I pre-taped one of them as his point. PaldoRepeat says, Kabuki Warriors are worthy of that. Cheers, Good fella for that. Uh, Derek Mitchell says, uh, Meechan and B fab are like the B team, which used to accompany the Ms, uh, JD and Bianca 177 days. So do we, so is that the longest or the, or, or second longest, depending on, I,

1:18:58 it would be the longest cause just cause it aired later. It doesn't mean it's longer. Um, I could see, uh, 93 octane 67 in the chat says I can see Tatum replacing Roxy in the judgment day.

1:19:09 Derek, I don't see it, but I could be surprised.

1:19:14 Then let's see. Paolo repeats his Tatum is very talented. I'd like to hear Derek's thoughts. So we got those and yeah.

1:19:24 Okay.

1:19:25 That, Oh, here, here's another one. 93 octane said Tatum is deceptively athletic. That girl got explosive power, but she's graceful too. You want to have both. If you've got grace, you still want explosive power.

1:19:36 And she moves with purpose where we're starting to find with a lot of the, the gals who come from a gymnastics background, there is grace without.

1:19:48 Impact a lot. Yes. I don't, I think she's like a power and a cheerleader.

1:19:55 There's a little more, she's a little more explosive in her movements, a little more meaningful in her offense. And I don't see her with, which means miss on a lot of her strikes and her kicks a lot.

1:20:09 How is, how does Charlotte Rhea Ripley and Jade Cargill in the high impact? Like how do you evaluate them since they're not really on the radar of tonight's show, but I'm curious your take.

1:20:20 Rhea stands out more than me than both of them is Rhea is not afraid of impact at all. In fact, she probably invites it too much, which might be the reason that she gets injured a lot more because how many times have you seen Rhea get a bloody nose or wear a face mask, which she had to, It's because she doesn't protect herself really at all, especially face, because most of the women, this is when someone's coming at their face.

1:20:43 You see this type stuff.

1:20:45 There is a graceful way to do it where you just do this and then kind of trust your opponent. Rhea's more like this, where she puts her nose right out there.

1:20:54 Charlotte always leans her shoulder down.

1:20:56 Charlotte always leans her shoulder down when anyone's doing anything, which makes the offense look really bad. Because if I keep myself square, I'm giving you quite a few targets. I'm giving you here, I'm giving you here, I'm giving you here.

1:21:11 It's on you not to hit me here.

1:21:14 But as soon as I start doing this with my body, what are you supposed to hit? What are you supposed to aim for? So you catch a lot more strays just because you're not confident in impact.

1:21:25 These are good things just by the way, to make a mental note of as if you were to look for, you know, like when you are going, why am I more into this wrestler more into this match? Why am I buying in? Why am I being pulled into it? And it's the things you're describing, Derek, that a lot of people who have a different view of what's exciting in a match don't notice. And so you don't feel the match you, but you, you observe high spots like, Whoa, yay, but you're not hold into it. And that's, you're putting words to the things that sometimes I feel, but don't see specifically why I feel that way.

1:21:54 Yeah.

1:21:54 I think, and I think the key, the key is, is you got to have the trust. You got to have the training, but also I have to give these women credit. I never had to worry about getting hit in the face because of the old saying, don't fight an ugly guy because they have a lot less to lose. These women have a lot more to lose if they get hit in the face, right? Because that is how they make their money. So I can see why they are more protective of their facial features and their bodies than me or Will Ospreay or some of these other guys who, I mean, that's kind of, but it's also the trust with your opponents. And when you're working with people who are inexperienced or less experienced as you, if you didn't come up with them, that trust is probably

1:22:40 not there.

1:22:40 All right, Crofted, anything else for us?

1:22:44 Yeah no just closing the loop on that and then uh then i'll let daryl get on i was just gonna gonna say that i'm with you wade like what derek was saying there fully resonates with me like ria there's something about her and the way that she engages with opponents and gets into matches that feels like more physical that feels more like a real fight charlotte i know that there's something that that's missing there and i've heard people talk about it before but derek i'm going to keep an eye out for for that i felt that in the the blake uh julia match tonight there was just julia hasn't gotten a tremendous amount of opportunity to kind of present herself and so she's trying to sell her offense but also her personality the crowd was

1:23:30 pretty dead for a big part of the match and But I thought she did a really good job. Like she's trying to she saw them dead. She tried to lift, you know, was trying to lift them up that the offense was strong. And to your point about about the moneymaker, like that's for Blake, Blake, whose whole gimmick is is is glamour and all this. get when when i saw that pile of chairs i said julius going through that pile of chairs that was that was my my thought uh and then for for blake to be the one to go through it um i thought that was that was great so i thought they i really i really enjoyed that match and thought that they did really well but thank you for your insight last thing i'll say is i'll shame michael cole who said the golem-like Sami

1:24:20 Zayn was his closing call of the night when Sami was running away with the belt. This is a Lord of the Rings reference. And I think he was trying to infer that the belt was his precious with his precious. But come on. There's a cheap shot on Sami there.

1:24:37 Michael Cole.

1:24:37 I see what you're doing, and I don't like it.

1:24:39 Yeah.

1:24:40 Justice for sammy thank you both and uh always love it when you're on derrick and your insights are always fantastic thank you wade as always have a great night guys.

1:24:49 Thanks crofton appreciate it seeing the forum crofton uh uh poster in the forum on a regular basis the vip forum um sammy was i wanted to point this out earlier and we just moved on uh his body language and the way that he moved when trick was done talking was great he like He, he, the thing that makes Sammy work as the one of the things, not the only thing as WWE champion there, because he listens to his opponent and his opponent can say things that you think should make Sammy just cower. And he isn't.

1:25:20 And then when trick's done, Sammy kind of turned sideways out of almost in a disrespectful way. Like, well, you say that, but, and he's got his whole, like, just like this sort of delusional confidence in the delusional. Anything that's gone wrong is because I, I haven't, it's been an injustice. Um, and so like, he knows, you would talk about footwork in a match. There's footwork and promos.

1:25:44 It's Sammy.

1:25:45 I'm just admiring. Like it's just, it's a masterclass in, in no one's, no one's ever going to like, you can't emulate Sammy exactly. Cause his character is, it's just Sammy's character. It's not transferable, um, to other people, but there's things he does that are, that you can extract from it or learn from. So I wanted to throw that out there too. Cause we talk about why you engulfed in a match or in, like find yourself pulled in sometimes same thing with a promo it's the body language the footwork the the blocking as they say in theater of where you stand and how you react and the rhythm and the pace of how he reacts so he's he just he's doing a great job.

1:26:19 He's a character actor and the character he's playing is himself and i i can't see it any other way but to go along with what you're saying way the other part that i really liked about the promo before trick came out Candace is doing a great job with her understated facial expressions too. Like there's attention to detail in everything that Johnny Candace and Sammy is doing and watching Candace react to what Sammy says, and then look at her husband and trying to read what that facial expression means. That's part of the interest of the promo too.

1:26:54 That was a, the, uh, one of the things that was touted about the bloodline storylines during COVID. It's just, you could watch it five times because you'd want to watch Paul Heyman and then Roman Reigns and then Jay and then Jimmy and then solo. And you, you couldn't watch them all at once and appreciate all the things that, that they were, that they were doing. Same thing can be said about Tiffany Stratton. No, I'm kidding. Oh my God.

1:27:14 She's awful tonight.

1:27:15 I thought you were serious there.

1:27:17 I'm glad.

1:27:17 I was like, what are you drinking in that cabin up in the woods?

1:27:21 I love it.

1:27:22 I love it.

1:27:25 Oh she was bad again tonight i mean i don't know i don't know if it can be taught some people some people can't sing they can't they're off pitch and some people's acting is off pitch but man if she's getting training and she's still this bad i don't know what to say um.

1:27:39 Everything she does is just is just too performative by 1.5 yep that's the.

1:27:44 Way yeah yeah a couple other uh uh check comments i'll throw in and then move on Bring Jason D into the conversation from Australia. Goodfellas says, Blake takes hard bumps for sure. Chelsea, the same. It's part of what draws me to them. And let's see. Powder Repeat says, Blake being in a street fight makes her stand out.

1:28:06 Standard Aviation, when you were talking about, you know, leaning into moves and being there for your opponent and not cowering... the natural thing is to put your hands up or cower like you know wrestling asks you asks of you to it to break from your natural instincts that are the smart thing to do in real life in order for the fight to to work um and standard aviation said by the way i don't notice any of those details it's interesting to hear that perspective um indeed and uh 93 octane 67 as far as um women having more to lose morgan was probably carrying that knot on her forehead before mania well when it happens don't don't hide.

1:28:45 It she's not afraid of contact either interesting yep yes.

1:28:49 Yep all right uh Oh, and regarding Sammy, Derek Mitchell chimed in on my comment. He goes, what's been great about Sammy's current run is he doesn't shy away or back down from anyone, whether it's Roman punk kale, Cody Gunther. I love to see him in Oba one day. Um, so there we are. Um, Oh, and powder repeat says, yes, Sammy is a masterclass. He's a hundred percent real out there.

1:29:10 So believable standard deviation says, yes, Sammy delivers thoughtful high IQ versions of a simple delusional heel. Well said really well said.

1:29:19 Yes.

1:29:20 Um, cool.

1:29:21 All right. Um, Yeah, so let's bring Jason D. from Australia into the conversation.

1:29:27 Welcome, Jason.

1:29:27 Good to hear from you again.

1:29:28 How's it going?

1:29:29 Yeah, thanks, Wade and Derek. Unlike last week, I'm not going to take a big swing at a prediction. There was a bit of a swing and a miss there, although I'd like to think I had some storyline credibility behind me. But nevertheless.

1:29:41 You added some drama for me watching it that might not have crossed my mind had you not brought it up. So at least you did that.

1:29:47 I listened to a bit of the Monday show. I copped a bit of a strays there, but at one point, wait, you were thinking, wait a minute, wait a minute.

1:29:54 Yeah.

1:29:54 I mean, very, very, very, very briefly. I had to recalibrate your rationale that I wasn't buying into and going, well, maybe Jason was right after all for a split second. And then it obviously didn't happen.

1:30:05 I don't mind being wrong, but to say there was no storyline validity behind it or whatever, that's where I draw the line because I wouldn't bring it up for nothing. That's insulting my intelligence. But anyway, on tonight, right, or this morning as I watched it, just going back to what Croft has said about CM Punk, like I'm a fan of CM Punk, right? He's not my favorite, but I've always liked how– I feel like he tries to make things as realistic as possible within the pro wrestling narrative with what he does in the ring and also his promo. So the way he brings storyline and reality, I feel like he has the right blend. But I am getting tired of nearly every single person he's facing talking about how much they hate him and going back

1:30:48 to the past. And that's obviously chipping away at some fans' thoughts about him because it just seems like every feud he's come back with, They're talking about how he was in the past, how he hasn't changed. That's why I found his brief feud with Gunther very refreshing because it was about the championship and this formidable up-and-comer in Gunther and the veteran CM Punk. I enjoyed that. But everyone else is just ripping on him all the time, always talking about his past and how he hasn't changed.

1:31:20 And for me.

1:31:21 I'm getting a bit tired of it myself. Even Cody.

1:31:24 Yeah.

1:31:25 Even Cody Roadsway.

1:31:26 Yeah.

1:31:26 Go on.

1:31:26 Yeah.

1:31:27 Our chat was doing that earlier with Punk. Boris J. Boris J. Or I. Boris J. Says Phil is a corporate shell of his former self. Powder of Pete says Punk wins, but people will be upset. Guaranteed. Boris added.

1:31:39 Yeah.

1:31:39 CM Punk's character died years ago. Phil selling his soul is putting it lightly. So anyway.

1:31:46 Yeah.

1:31:46 There was some negative feedback. negative comments about punk earlier that I thought I would, uh, highlight to accentuate, um, what you were bringing up, Jason.

1:31:55 But even when he had the feud with Cody Rhodes, sitting into summer, Sam Cody said, you know, we might be friends, but deep down, I really don't like you. And I remember saying, anybody, he said that. I don't know. I'm not going to name names, but. Hey, we probably have family members like that too. I mean, we all have that, right?

1:32:14 But we can choose our friends. That's the, that's the part is you have a friend, but you don't like them. It's like with family, you're kind of stuck with them. I mean, you're not really stuck with them. You can disown them, but they're technically still family.

1:32:23 But does anybody like this guy? That's what I'm learning. Does anybody like him? It seems like everyone dislikes him. And I feel like he's... People still? People... I know that, but I'm talking about the wrestlers, right? And eventually this has got to chip away, which will be fuel for... I would love to see him as a heel, but he really can't turn against the audience because the audience has been with him the whole way. It's just that every single... It's almost like he can't evolve and change.

1:32:52 I said this before. People have an idea of Punk that this is anti-corporate, anti-establishment guy, and he's not allowed to evolve. Not only is he not allowed to evolve, he's not allowed to be happy. People don't like saying, no, we don't want punk to be happy because happy punk doesn't entertain me. I need to see miserable punk. That's the message I'm getting from a lot of fans.

1:33:13 But that's the danger of being a sanctimonious preaching and being sanctimonious and judging other people, which is the whole straight edge persona, baby face or heel. It's I'm superior to you because I'm straight edge. And there's a sanctimony and a judgmentalness. Like I said about Punk, he can be right about something, but by the time he's done explaining how right he is, you resent him and you want to change your own opinion of something that you greeted him on at the beginning because he makes you resent him being right. So when you say, oh, no one wants to let him change or evolve, you can't let someone who is so sanctimonious about how right they were change without kind of going, well.

1:33:52 You want to apologize a little more about how sanctimonious you were about how right you were. If you have changed that. So I'm, I think that's the argument. I sound like I'm coming down heavy on punk for that, but it's, it's more a comment from you saying, why don't people let him change? And I think that's kind of what you're saying and you're tired of it because you're allowed to change, but you also are going to get some pushback and some heat. If you, if you're changing from an aura of superiority, right? And if you change from that, people are going to call you out on it. Derek Mitchell in the chat says, I said it during Punk and Cena in their feud last year.

1:34:26 Punk's become what he hates. He told Cena he became the New York Yankees, the evil empire. And I think Punk became what he rallied against. That's part of it is if you're a baby face and you have given into the things that you judged other people for being. I'm sorry, you don't you don't people go, oh, he just evolved. They want to hold you accountable for it.

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1:35:48 Derek, what do you think of that?

1:35:51 I agree with it.

1:35:52 And I think this is how a lot of fans see CM Punk. And I'll use two bad words. He can be an asshole, but a lot of people are like, yeah, but he's our asshole.

1:36:03 Oh, for sure.

1:36:04 And that's why they like him.

1:36:06 And once again, if you turn him heel, I think those people who feel that way, they're not going to turn against him.

1:36:13 I think it takes a little of the edge off of Punk's character, though, that he knows people are thinking, wait, you went to Saudi Arabia. Wait, you came back to WWE when you told Cole Cabana you never would. Oh, now, you know, like, oh, look at your muscles now. You're not the antithesis of that. You're actually leaning into it as you approach age 50. There's on and on.

1:36:30 I think.

1:36:32 That's why the people who are against him have a hard time, you know, forgiving him for it. So you have to kind of compromise what it was you liked about punk originally to still like him with the same enthusiasm there's.

1:36:47 Truth to that there's truth to that that's why you got to be careful with your judgments because sometimes they they come back to.

1:36:54 Each yeah i i interrupted both of you to make points so i apologize for that but i i feel i lose my i'll forget if i don't do it i try to pick my spots but jerek we're going to say something else before that continue with anything there.

1:37:07 No, that's about it. About CM Punk for me.

1:37:09 All right.

1:37:10 So Jason, it's not like you're about to talk about Cody. I want to sneak in the punk thing before I forgot, but go, go ahead. Take, take over again.

1:37:15 I would just like to see CM Punk in a feud where his past isn't bought up. Like, can we move? Maybe creative feel like they can't do this. You know, maybe there's more juice. I just want to see a current day wrestler, uh, maybe someone new and maybe, I don't know, maybe he has to turn heel to do that.

1:37:32 Some up and coming baby face where we're not talking about how he was in a locker room 20 years ago, or I really don't like you. I'm just, I'm over it. I'm tired of it.

1:37:41 You know, what's interesting is, is punk benefited so much from being such a strong personality. I mean, strong point of view, blunt, charismatic on the microphone. He stood for something. He got a push in WB's ECW. He got a push in his phone buddies with Vince McMahon at the same time that he's decrying the corporation and Vince McMahon.

1:38:02 He said, oh, we text each other at night or whatever it was. There's mixed signals along the way, but as he kept getting successful, part of what made him successful was being anti-establishment, and it's such a defining trait that it's hard to run away from that when you come back.

1:38:17 What made him.

1:38:21 A big star that carries over to today is such a, it like when people look at that era, that punk rosen he is the the personal symbol for people at a certain part of their lives so it's kind of hard jason and i'm not saying you're not right that that i i agree with you i'd like to see him just be a wrestler in 2026 doing 2026 things and talking about 2024 and 2025, but he is now a victim of what made him a star in that.

1:38:49 It's so it, how do you walk away from what punk stood for? Cause he was so strong willed with it. Derek, you're verbally nodding along to that.

1:38:57 Absolutely.

1:38:58 I think the reasons that people dislike him are the same reasons that people love him. And if he sheds that completely, I think you're left with a shell. You are left with, CM Punk light water, right? And right now it's kind of CM Punk light, but it's also CM Punk older. And most athletes become a lesser version of themselves when they become older, more mature, depending on your perspective. True. Yeah.

1:39:29 I don't know if I coined the phrase. I think I did happy punk when he first showed up in AW and I was like, fans don't want to see happy punk. But at the same time, when he showed up there, he was in a dream situation, at least super on the surface. It felt like he, he has a company that stood up to WWE. It featured wrestling.

1:39:47 It was a wrestler's company, you know, with EVPs. And it was, it was, you know, created from a movement that, you know, kind of Cody started, but it, as Cody and punk have talked about Cody, you know, did what punk said he was going to do because cody had a little more patience and and was able to get along with people better and the timing worked out whatever so that that is such a part of um the the the punk story that going back to that it's hard to ever fully move away from it um anyway jason.

1:40:22 Yeah Well, I like the part in the promo, the sit down he had with Kevin Oswee, he said, you know, could we have a coffee and hash things over? Like, can we put, I actually like that. Like, can we put this behind us? Do we have to?

1:40:34 He didn't say I want a cup. He said we never have, which the implication is maybe we ought to, but I just want to be clear. Unless I'm remembering wrong and correct me if I am, I might be. I thought Punk was saying we have it, but it's sort of a passive aggressive way of saying we should have, but I'm not going to ask because I don't want to be rejected. That's how I took it.

1:40:52 I didn't take it that way. I thought, can't come across like he's prepared to bury the hatchet from all these years ago. Cause he's kind of moved on from that, but people keep bringing back the past. Like in my mind, punk has every right to stand up for himself and want the championship. You know, the things that he complained about from an industry point of view, and we're talking a bit meta here, they've actually incorporated some of those changes.

1:41:16 And I think fans understand that, that what he was upset about, you know, wrestlers are getting time off for scenes a bit more family friendly. Like he's kind of happy where WWE is at the moment overall. And he's kind of moved on from his grievances. Maybe it feels like his grievances were the stepping stone for all these things.

1:41:33 and but people don't but the wrestlers on screen don't want to let go of what he was in the past and he's trying to move on about it and just make it about championships and and winning matches but they keep dragging him in personally then he has to get dragged in the mud too and that might be a more favorable way of looking at from his point of view but that's the way i see it these wrestlers cannot let go from things from the past and they feel like he just can't walk in and pick up where he left from so to speak they feel like he has to pay for how they made him feel back in the past but he doesn't want to get caught in that.

1:42:04 It's fair.

1:42:07 Jason, I'm struggling because I agree with you. I'd like to see punk. To go to that point, I'd like to see punk be part of something, like I said, that's about the last few years. But I mean, what is there? And as Derek then says, it's punk light. So you can be frustrated by that's the theme, but it's like, what else is there? What are you risking if you do that? And by the way, Kevin Owens, if you're going to do that, you kind of got to.

1:42:33 It's like that's why it'd be refreshing to see punk in a feud that isn't about, hey, let's do semi-shoot promos where everyone thinks we're shooting on each other because that'll be super compelling. If we can move away from that and just tell stories with the TV time you have, there's a story to be told about modern day punk.

1:42:49 Tell the story about modern day punk, Derek.

1:42:51 And with Jason, I do want to see him move on from that, from a storyline perspective. And I have two landing places when he moves on. I'd like to see him with Dominic Mysterio. I think they could do some really fun stuff that is new, that is not drawn on CM Punk's past, is drawing on his present. And also having Punk talk about how disappointed he is in Dom Mysterio. I think that would be fun, right?

1:43:15 And then the other one is they teased it last year.

1:43:19 I don't think they went all the way.

1:43:20 So it's still, there's still meat on the bone. CM Punk and Braun Breaker, I think is a win. I think that is Braun Breaker beating CM Punk could be CM Punk's retirement from a main event consistent wrestler. And I don't know if that's in a year or two, but it feels like when you want a heel to beat CM Punk and generate heat, Dom Mysterio could do it.

1:43:47 Brom Breaker could do it.

1:43:50 Let me throw a few chat comments up, Jason, and then I'll throw it back to you because people have things to say about CM Punk. It always happens. We bring them up. The show's going to be 20 minutes longer than it was going to be otherwise. That's okay. No, no apologies. Powder of Repeat says, I'm a fan of Punk.

1:44:02 Some fans make me feel like I should take a shower because I like Punk. Standard Aviation says he's been a model employee for three years now. Kavanti Small says, does Punk's character run its course and does it need a total reset? Crofton says, I can't stress enough how Punk was my favorite for years, but it is that Dark Knight thing. You either die hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain. Some good chat comments in here. Derek says, I greet Jason D.

1:44:28 Everyone hates Punk from Drew, Seth, Roman, KO, and Sammy. They all talk about his past. Goodfella says, I think smart witty punk in 2026 is fine for me. More his current graps is what I struggle with consistently. Standard Aviation says, punk hasn't been a heel in nearly 15 years. He'll make an incredible corporate heel next year. JC Scooby says, one thing that tarnished me with punk, who's still my guy, but he tarnished it with going to Saudi Arabia and taking blood money. And Standard Aviation says, Wade, you did coin it in reference to happy punk. Okay, yeah, I thought I did.

1:45:01 I thought I was.

1:45:03 I don't think I cribbed it from anyone else. Crofton says, people talk about how Cody will make a great heel when he turns, but I think CM Punk has an even greater heel turn in him. Old athlete that cheats to escape with the title against younger hot wrestlers.

1:45:15 Yes.

1:45:16 Now we're talking– sorry to interrupt, Wade, but this is a very important point. Now, if Punk turns out to be a hypocrite storyline-wise, now I'm all in on that. Now we've got some juice where it's story where he was sanctimonious, like on screen, winning championships, doing the right thing. But if he starts cheating because the time is getting away from him– And now he feels like he has to sort of break the rules and go against everything he sort of talked about over the past three years since we've come back. Now we've got a great heel.

1:45:44 That's it.

1:45:45 Now we've got a good heel. That's what I want to see. I would love to see that. But not based on anything like meta, you know, like, oh, how you treated me in the locker room or the rest of it. No, no, storyline-wise.

1:45:55 One of the problems, and I want Derek's thoughts on some of those chat comments and what Chase just said. is you can't bring up Saudi Arabia hypocrisy as part of a storyline. You just, that's off limits. So you're taking away one of the big issues of him turning heel and being hypocrite. You have to talk, you have to, what, circumvent the specifics, basically, and imply things. Standard Aviation said, Plunk's colleagues not liking him is an effective storyline, storytelling device.

1:46:17 We're just not seeing enough variety in his storytelling.

1:46:20 I would agree with that.

1:46:21 Yeah, yeah. Anything else you want to add, Derek, to the chat comments? I kind of rapid fire wanted to get through them.

1:46:27 Just my opinion. I know a lot of people are for a CM Punk heel turn.

1:46:32 At the beginning of this podcast, Wade, you commented about Sami's character not feeling forced. I feel a drastic change to corporate punk. I don't know how it wouldn't feel forced and fake.

1:46:47 Can you compare it to someone else who turned heel and it didn't feel authentic in WWE history? In case you jump in, if anyone comes to mind, I was trying to think of something where it was like it, where it didn't work and it felt, you know, pasted on.

1:47:02 Uh, I, I, I trust punk. I, if, if they went down that path and they slowly turned him here, we saw a change in his character. No, I trust him to pull it off. I think he would be able to do it.

1:47:16 JC Scooby says Austin Wade. So, um, yeah.

1:47:22 All right.

1:47:23 Um, Oh, and Powder Repeat says, Punk needs to put the future over. And Goodfellas says, I'd rather see Dom retire Punk.

1:47:32 So there we are.

1:47:34 All right, go ahead, Jason. Anything else you want to bring up?

1:47:37 Trick Williams, right? Clearly, I really like the six-man, and I wish they could do this more often. And obviously, Derek, you could speak to this. It was designed to shine up Trick Williams. He gets the hot tag. He gets all these, like you said, Derek, he's established moves in. It's an easy way to get a big pop. I like the visual of him being the taller guy next to the two popular luchadors. I don't know why we don't see this more often. This is what I think TV matches are for, to shine up your up-and-coming baby faces and And having that six-man tag where he is featured, he gets the pin, the crowd's popping, there's no dull moments.

1:48:13 It's all designed to get Trick over. And now, as I talked about last week, Damian Priest, right? Clearly, Damian Priest is in the future for Trick Williams. I think that's a great feud for Trick because Damian Priest has shown that he can brawl effectively. He's got a bit of a killer edge to him now. And I feel like this is the next step to bring out another level of Trick's offense and just overall believability there. And the phrase I coined last week, well, I didn't coin it.

1:48:41 It's out there, but a violent intent. We need to see a bit more violent intent in a good way from the Trick Williams in-ring persona. And I think Damien Priest can bring that out of him. So I really like where they're heading with Trick.

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1:49:49 I agree with Jason.

1:49:50 I think Damian Priest is a good landing place. He's kind of like an upgraded version of Baron Corbin. I thought the Baron Corbin trick program was effective for what it was. And they nailed the landing with the last match at the still cage match they had. Didn't have to be the prettiest match to completely accomplish the goal.

1:50:10 And that's what it did. Still a little skeptical about Trick's in-ring work.

1:50:15 A lot can be hidden in a six-man tag, but he looked good tonight, and the match was designed to make him look good, as Jason mentioned. So good on them.

1:50:24 Sorry, Derek, when you say that, because I've heard other people say this, so what is it about specifically that you're not buying into Trick at the moment as far as his in-ring work is concerned?

1:50:36 So I'll bring up one thing specifically, but it's an overarching theme, and that is his footwork, specifically his footwork on his strikes. So a good example, and we saw a good version of it tonight from Trick in his opening exchange with Sammy, and then we saw a bad version of it in his last exchange with Sammy before he hit the pump knee.

1:50:56 Is tricks right-handed. I'm right-handed. Most of you are probably right-handed or watching.

1:51:01 So if you throw an overhand strike, your left foot goes forward in a lunge, and then you throw your arm forward with.

1:51:07 Your right hand.

1:51:09 If you throw a forearm, it's the same way. Left foot forward, and then you do this. Think of one like in Japan when they do the forearm exchanges. Both guys are stepping with their left foot, with the left hand around the guy's back of his head, and they're throwing forearms, and they barely have to move, and they don't move their feet at all because that's the mechanics.

1:51:29 If you throw a chop, your right foot's forward. If you throw a European uppercut, your right foot's forward. You throw a jab, your right foot's forward. Trick messes up by putting both of his feet on the exact same plane and sitting in a squat and hopping up and down and slapping his leg.

1:51:45 When he gets excited.

1:51:46 It's just bad footwork. And I know like people say that they're like, that doesn't matter. It throws off the complete cadence of a strike exchange. Because he's a baby face. So a good example, when he's working Baron Corbin, he breaks Baron Corbin's arms. He's supposed to hit him. Corbin goes for the punch. He beats him to it. He hits him again.

1:52:05 He's stepping forward with his left hand. He hits him again. He hits the ropes. He gets cut off.

1:52:11 If you're in the same plane, there is no movement in that fight back, which means the put down means nothing. And there's way too many examples of that in Trick's offense where it's basic stuff that most people don't even have to be taught it explicitly because they just understand it because they've watched wrestling for years. But those are like the little things with his footwork that drive me crazy because it's so easily fixed. And I know he knows what the right way is because sometimes we see the right way and the other way we see the sloppy bad way. And then the other thing that kills me about Trick is if I described his move set to you, And I say.

1:52:48 His finish is a pump knee.

1:52:50 I think big guy, long legs. You could get a lot out of a pump knee if you move your legs in the right way and you have that attention to detail. That could look like a million-dollar finish. But when he does it, it does. The bookend, he's a big, tall guy. He should be able to jack that guy way up over his head and slam that guy down hard as hell. Like when Solo Sokoa does a yuranagi, which is the exact same move with a little switch. Solo, two weeks ago, hit a yuranagi on Royce Keyes. It looked beautiful because he actually does the work, not only relying on the guy to jump. It was so apparent when Trick Williams was doing the bookend to Baron Corbin.

1:53:35 It's all on Baron Corbin to get up. He's not even trying to pick him up. and then he's not slamming him down hard. That makes the move look worse. And there's so many of those little aspects of Trick's game that just make it less than what it should be. And it bugs me because it can be fixed and it would mean a lot more. It would make him so much better.

1:53:56 So is that on him or is that on the actual trainers or other wrestlers to say, wait a minute, you could do this better?

1:54:03 I always blame the guy. You have autonomy. No one's forcing you to be stagnant. If the trainers aren't telling him, and I bet they are, there's no reason why you can't watch your matches and say, this doesn't look good. I need to fix it. And if you don't, you're not a professional and you shouldn't be in professional wrestling.

1:54:22 Yeah, I think a lot of things that you're saying are, well, I'll throw a powder repeats comment because this is what inspired my thought on this. Powder repeats it in the chat. I feel like you only need to be passable to be a top star in WWE. Trick is passable. And that is the thing. There are different ingredients, Derek, that lead to somebody making it to the top. But Hulk Hogan did a lot of things right, but he wasn't flashy and super athletic. And he wasn't, you know, Ric Flair of his era. He wasn't Ricky Steamboat. And he got and it's OK, but he's a complicated person. There's, you know, the formulaic matches, the cartoonish Superman comebacks, you know, eventually really weak chair shots or things he did that

1:55:02 were weak. But there are things he did. that were so effective that separates it's part of what separated him from the pack. And so when you're trick Williams, I think there's something that will powder repeats comment, but, and it's a big, but if you're Paul Levesque backstage and you're watching, it's like Levesque's initial comment about punk, you know, he's, he's a, he's good at impersonating a good wrestler. Um, but there's things that wrestlers and Paul Levesque say what you will about his self-indulgent laborious, uh, overly long matches.

1:55:36 And he thought everyone was going to be, you know, just fascinated with him, no matter how long his match went, because everything he did was so precise, but Levesque was a guy and Derek, correct me if I'm wrong from watching his body work. Who's always in the right place at the right time footworks there. The selling is there.

1:55:51 The movement with the head is, is the right direction with the right force. All those things at his peak were the stuff that, people with an eye for it have told me that's what it's not because he married Stephanie it's like I mean obviously he had a look he had a charisma he had a distinct personality he worked on his presentation as a character as hard as anybody with a water bottle spout and all that stuff nobody cared more about video packages or ring entrance other than him until MJF so there is a he had the drive so winding back my point is my question to you Derek is does what trick is doing you're being, what he's not doing well, you're being hard on him about it's correctable, but it's also telling that he's hasn't

1:56:41 corrected it yet. And if your management, you go tricks over, but it's surface level, it's superficial. It's not something that we want to invest in because when we need someone at the very top to tell a main event storyline at a WrestleMania or a SummerSlam, That's when those things manifest and crowds don't know why, but they're less invested in it. And the eyes of the veteran wrestlers backstage and the booker like Levesque, McMahon had an eye for different things, but that's something he had an eye for also in a different way. It's more instinctive than specific, but he knew if somebody had it or didn't. And if you don't have it, you don't get better. there is going to be a ceiling on where he gets pushed,

1:57:23 no matter how many catchphrases he has or how many, how much the fans react to him. So where does he fall on that for.

1:57:28 You, Derek?

1:57:29 Well, I think that's why I come out so hard on him sometimes is because I know what people want him to be and he has the potential to be it. And I'm not seeing improvement that gets him to that level. And that kind of drives me nuts because he has all of these God-given gifts. He could be great, but All of these things can be fixed. Someone doesn't have to hold your hand to fix them for you. You're getting paid a lot of money to do this. Do it to the best of your ability, not only for your own sake, but for the sake of the people you work with and the people who are paying to see you, because that's what makes somebody a professional. And I do think that that's frustrating. and I've read into

1:58:11 some like and maybe I'm reading too much into some of this but he was kept down into NXT for an extra year when people thought he was ready to improve he didn't improve and when they asked Shawn Michaels on an interview why is Trick still in NXT he mentioned that Trickstill and NXT, he's in a very diplomatic way.

1:58:30 Of course.

1:58:30 He mentioned, well, Trickstill and NXT because he was looking really good because the heels who he was working with were doing a really good job. So he wanted to turn him heel so he knew what it was to make somebody look good. So what does that tell you? If you read in between the lines, Trick was taking for granted how hard Ilya Dragunov and Carmelo.

1:58:51 Hayes were working to make him.

1:58:53 Look like a million bucks, which were his best matches. And then another antidote was Triple H and Shawn Michaels had this podcast together or some interview thing where they were just.

1:59:06 Sitting down talking. Really fascinating stuff.

1:59:09 And they talk about a whole bunch of guys and they throw like Javon Evans' name out there and his commitment to the craft. And he came back one week and Triple H said, your punches look like crap. And the next week, all he did was work on his punches. And the first thing he did when he came through the curtain, he asked Triple H, how did my punches look tonight? Yep.

1:59:29 That shows you how much it means to him.

1:59:32 There are people who... There are people who don't want to hear it, but that counts. It should count. And just because you don't know what's happening, you don't see it or you don't value it. Those sometimes you go, why didn't this guy get a push? He was cool. He was over. I liked him. I connected with them.

1:59:47 It's those things.

1:59:48 And if that comes from your management, just think what his coworkers who have to put matches together with them are like, you know, I've, I've struggled with this a lot of times, and this is no shade on some of the wrestlers I worked with. If you have to go over a match like 10 times with the same guy, because they're not paying attention or because they're changing it on the fly, or they're not remembering things. It is so incredibly frustrating. It doesn't matter how much charisma that guy has. You don't want to work with that person because it is tedious and awful to work with.

2:00:21 And you can see what the Javon example, like Paul Heyman, just, you know, someone said, what about Javon? Oh, if he's not a, one of the top stars in our industry, if you're something went wrong. Cause like you, there's people who, uh, are in a circle with really smart people. Again, Sean, you know, say what you want Hall and Nash and Sean Michaels and Paula Beck and Sean Waltman and the click.

2:00:39 There's a lot of things public facing that were bad, but the reason they went on car rides together is they love talking about the business. They love talking shop and there are wrestlers. And I'm not going to name names in this context, who you hear, who, although Jim Ross always railed against it. Oh, they, all they want to do is play video games or they're texting or their social media, or they just want to go to the strip club. They don't want to actually have a conversation about the business when they clock out. And I'm sorry, you can have a good TV match that people rave about.

2:01:06 Remember 12 years later, but if backstage you showed none of the signs that people who with experience know is essential, 99.9% of the time to being a true sustainable top star is the brakes are going to stop coming your way. They're going to look for anybody else to push except you. And you'll be the last resort who they push. Cause they know you'll have a good match and fans will like you, but the really smart people who talk and think and analyze the business, they see Jovan in what the example you gave and go, that's the guy we want to invest in. And when the average viewer at home is going, well, what about this guy? He does flashy moves too. And I like his personality and the crowd pop for him. There's all these things happening off

2:01:46 camera and, that determine wrestlers fate. And it's not always unfair. It's not always, it's not always a bias. It's not always corrupt. And the longer you follow things and the more, you know, you, you hear anecdotes like that, the more you realize there's usually a good reason for it. It's why so many people who got, well, I'll just stop there.

2:02:03 Go ahead.

2:02:04 Well, and to, and to Jason's point about his next, looks like his oncoming feud with Damien priest, um, They put him with Sammy Zane to get him some reps, work with a guy who's got a lot of experience. Sammy did a good job making him look good, but they were both less than 10-minute matches. They hired Baron Corbin to give Trick a bigger heel to work with.

2:02:27 I bet he learned a lot from Baron Corbin, because say what you will, if you've listened to Baron Corbin talk on the Busted Open podcast or whatnot, he has become a student of wrestling. He's a student of the game. Why is that guy getting chances? Because you can tell how much he cares about the nuance. He cares so much about that nuance. And they're like, we need to get this guy's passion that he did not come to us with because he was, you know, a signee from a tryout without an indie background.

2:02:59 He instilled passion in Baron Corbin for the business. Let's get some of that passion for the work.

2:03:06 Let's rub it next to Trick Williams, two guys with both football experiences, and see if he.

2:03:11 Can learn from that.

2:03:13 And now you got Damian Priest, who's this 40-year-old, long indie career. I mean, he's completely committed to being a professional wrestler. He's got a different nuance to put with trick. And you're just hoping that some of these qualities that you're putting next to him, by osmosis, they start rubbing off on him so he can become what everybody, myself included, wants him to become.

2:03:39 We want where the ceiling is.

2:03:42 And the only way you do it is by learning and working and implementing and trying and fixing.

2:03:50 And taking advice.

2:03:51 Yes.

2:03:52 Yes. Yeah.

2:03:54 Jason, back to you.

2:03:57 No, see, I appreciate this conversation and your insights, Derek, because for me personally, I feel like I don't have the credibility to talk about anyone's in-ring work. Just from my point of view as a fan who's been watching for over 35 years, like I still am just astounded what wrestlers can do and how there isn't more injuries.

2:04:16 Like I'll never take for granted the skill that it takes for any wrestler. And I have all the respect in the world for the matches. I've seen it. I've imagined what you've gone, what you put your body through and what you've done. So I come from a, like, I'm just astounded how well, every single wrestler, the sacrifices they make and the effort they put into their craft.

2:04:36 So when you're talking about these in-ring nuances and what you think they should be looking for and all the rest of it, you know, I sit back and I listen because I feel like I don't have the credibility to talk about this. And I'm very reluctant to criticize someone's in-ring style because I don't know what's going into it.

2:04:54 I don't know what the producers have asked. I don't know what management have asked.

2:04:59 Go ahead, Derek.

2:05:00 But Jason, they're wrestling for you. Thank you. And I would tell this to all fans who sometimes I feel there's this abundance of will, want, and desire to criticize creative because everyone thinks they can do it. And to criticize management because everyone thinks they can do it. But to lay off on wrestlers when they screw up. They're wrestling for you. Your money is what makes their profession exist.

2:05:33 Your opinion is just as valid as anybody else has been in the ring. And sometimes, like, if a wrestler thinks somebody is great and the fans don't, well, then the wrestler's not actually great, right? So if you want to criticize or critique somebody, do it.

2:05:51 Because the... You're as much as.

2:05:54 The sample for what they're trying to appease than anybody else. Because it's your attention and money that they're after.

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2:07:10 No wrestling company has had a profitable year or increase their profits because everybody in the back who have taken bumps in the ring and trained really liked and appreciated a wrestler in the ring. If that wrestler in the ring, wasn't getting crowd reactions, if the crowd wasn't invested in them, there's things that wrestlers see and they respect and notice that aren't as important ultimately as what the fan investment in their matches is. And that's the nuance that I would say, Jason is what I think Derek's trying to point out. And the anecdotes that I've heard over the decades is that, why am I into this guy and why is that guy not getting a push because I'm into him and it's because at the level he's being

2:07:49 presented you're into him but the experienced wrestlers who have seen wrestlers have a moment where they were connecting with the crowd because they were new and fresh shiny new toy they see they do not have the attitude, the aptitude. I want to say a third to be worth pushing higher because that will displace the same energy and effort to pushing somebody who they don't. in their mind, is getting a good enough crowd reaction and actually will improve.

2:08:20 It's not superficial reasons they decided to push someone. Although sometimes it's like I say, they're a jerk to every server and every front desk clerk. And they know that they treat the people that they sleep with on the road terribly. And they're like, you know what? We'd make money with them. But out of just... spite, I don't want that person to succeed. And that should factor in, to be frank. If you have that kind of power, yeah, make people, you know, it's karma. But for the most part, Jason, I'm saying, if someone's connecting with you and you like it, don't dismiss that as counting. But where the check comes in, where you want to check yourself is, but why aren't they pushing them more? And that's what I think Derek

2:08:57 is pointing out. Why are they not moving up the cart? Because they're just good enough to get a mid-card pop. but they don't have that polish to tell that main event story where when it's the last night, when it's the last match on the card, is everyone happy or are people feeling empty and they don't know why that's what you want to make sure you don't push in a main event spot. You want to catch that before you do it because you don't want fans being bored at someone that they thought they wanted to see. And now they don't.

2:09:25 Yeah.

2:09:25 Is that fair, Derek?

2:09:26 Yes. But as per your, your, feeling wary of critiquing it, Jason. I just look at it like this. Everyone loves music. We all know what songs we like. We can't always verbalize why those songs resonate with us. I think a lot is the same with wrestling. You kind of know what you like. If the match was good, you know.

2:09:47 You liked it.

2:09:48 If other people didn't, who cares? I always go back to Triple H and sting at WrestleMania 31. I love that match. And I'm not embarrassed to say it because it was for me. And from when I started watching wrestling, what wanted me to be a wrestler was that era, and it was like a tribute to my fandom. When everyone casts shade on it, they can cast shade on it.

2:10:12 That's fine. But my opinion is still mine. It's as valuable to me as any others, as yours should be to you. If it doesn't work for you, you don't have to be able to describe why it doesn't work. You just know that it did.

2:10:25 I see what you're saying. I'm talking about the specifics of the moves. There are things that I don't like, obviously, and I'm happy to say that, and there's things that I do like. You guys were talking about Tatum Paxsey. I reckon she's great. I didn't see much of her at NXT, but I can see she's got something. Like you said... The purpose in her movement, just her overall, like someone's just got a vibe to them that you can say they're going to be a big star and that they're fully invested. She's got that. Like she's got something to her. Rhea Ripley, the way she throws herself into her selling, like I'm not an expert, but I can see that. Like there are things that I know I like. Like one of my favorite matches from the

2:11:03 past year or so was Solo Sokoa versus Gunther. It was two heels. It was in the John Cena tournament match. but these guys had everything that I want in my wrestling. It's exactly what I wanted, this solid selling, they're sweating, they struggle, and they're safe, like five S's, if you like. That's my type of match. I know what I like.

2:11:26 I know what I don't like. I'm talking about the overall intricacies where I rely on a professional like you to sort of guide me through. This is what might be preventing him from getting a further push from management. The question is, do enough fans notice this where it's going to be a hindrance? You don't want to make perfect the enemy of good, right? That's what I'm saying.

2:11:46 I think there's a fine line there. Obviously, yeah.

2:11:48 But Jason, the thing I think that Derek's articulating and that I'm conveying as a middleman is through middleman is sometimes you feel.

2:11:59 A match more.

2:12:00 It's like the music, but you don't know why.

2:12:02 Yeah.

2:12:03 And so you're, when you say, well, does it matter if they're not good at that? That's what I tried to say in the last thing I just said, you're into somebody what you could like Derek said, sometimes it just, it just, it's my favorite as a kid or I'm nostalgic or, you know, but if you're trying to make money as a promoter, you want someone, you want to push people from mid card to upper mid card to lower top tier to top top. Only if all the signs are there that they are going to make fans feel their match. And you, so you, When you say that stuff doesn't matter, it does because you could be promoting because you like someone in the mid-card, someone who's destined to fail as a main eventer because that main

2:12:43 event spot commands more than the opening act or the mid-card wrestler does. So it does matter ultimately because you can end up getting pushed beyond those intangibles that you don't notice, but you feel as a fan.

2:12:58 All right. So the general consent, sorry, you go Derek, yeah.

2:13:02 You don't want any talent to put a ceiling on themselves. And by not improving, that's what they're doing, is they're putting ceilings on themselves.

2:13:11 And from a promoter standpoint, you don't want to invest a bunch of valuable TV time in somebody who doesn't show an interest or an aptitude in fixing things that need to be adjusted for them to be successful in the main event spot.

2:13:30 You guys are talking about intricacies in the ring where he could improve by 20 to 30% with certain offensive moves or the way he's taking moves. And that's, that's the issue right now. Everything else he's got down.

2:13:42 Pat, but it's not pedantic. I'm just going to be a stickler for meaningless perfection. it's things that add up. It's like my, you know, like things that I point out on a wrestling show. People, why does that matter if the camera's filming somebody for no reason and then something interesting happens and it's only, you know, they filmed it only because it's scripted. There's little things you do that register in the human brain as this is just a scripted show and it makes you less invested in it and you don't have a peak fan experience watching it because you just are watching a show and then it just becomes about communal chance, superficial reactions, ephemeral dopamine pops, but you're not actually, emotionally buying into what's happening because

2:14:20 the presentation has a low IQ version of reality. It doesn't ring true. So you can say, well, if you're 30% better, does it? And I don't mean to reframe what you're saying unfairly, but it's not about getting better at things that don't really matter, but make you more polished and therefore people who can see it through their secret wrestler experience classes now approve of you and they want to reward you. There are things that actually do matter.

2:14:46 There's a tipping point that pulls you into a match that as an average viewer, you're not sure why, but it does. And that's the stuff wrestlers can tell. It's just like a musician can listen to a band and know if they're tight and if they're hack derivative, but people just kind of like them because it's catchy or they're great musicians. And not everybody can perceive that, but you tend to feel it. Derek, you want to jump in and then we'll give Jason.

2:15:10 It's also the reason that tricking Sammy was eight minutes at WrestleMania instead of 15. It's the reason that the matches against Baron Corbin were 10 to 12 minutes instead of 20, right? Because he's being given a chance to swim in a pool that he knows he can get to the other side of. Where you want to get to that chance where the 20 to 30 minute match that's more competitive and more complicated is doable.

2:15:45 Yep.

2:15:47 All right, Jason.

2:15:48 That's a good conversation, and I appreciate the insight. I just want to quickly, before I go, just with Cody and Randy Orton, I mean, you're talking about this, right? Obviously, last man standing, not to make a prediction here, again, Orton is saying, you know, Cody, you asked for this, but if it ends with Cody giving Orton the punt, right, and Orton stays down, I mean, I could see another punt happening as Orton gets up, so Cody goes for two, you know? Wade, are you saying that you thought maybe the way the story had gone is that this was...

2:16:21 Orton's intention all along to bring out this side. So he's almost smiling about it. Like this is a means to an end. Then Orton goes back to being a fully fledged baby face, not sort of a wishy-washy type of heel. I mean, because obviously the point of this story is to show that Cody Rhodes has an edge to him. And then where do they go from there?

2:16:40 That's what I'm intrigued with. Like this is the conversation. Like you're talking about Punk and Owens, what's next? I'm intrigued to see what is next for Cody. Once it is established, he can go to that place. Well, then where do they go from there? That's what I'm intrigued to see. And that's Orton just go back to being that, you know, the baby face that everyone loves. Is this just a means to an end?

2:17:00 Derek.

2:17:01 I think for Orton, it is a means to an end. As I mentioned, a rite of passage where he is, he's the rite of passage given to Cody. I don't know what's next for Cody after Randy. Like when I look at the landscape of SmackDown, I don't know if you want to go with him and Sammy again, unless you want Cody going into WrestleMania as the champion. Cody and Gunther seems been there, done that. Cody and Finn could be fun, but I think that is one where you'd have to have a heel or a face dynamic, and there would have to be a change in the makeup.

2:17:39 So I'm not sure.

2:17:40 Wade, do you agree with this?

2:17:42 And what you don't want is here's our six top guys and whether it makes sense or not, we're pairing them off in three matches for WrestleMania because they've earned it. They have the stature and they have to be in one of the top three matches at Mania. That's what's led to, I think some of what we talked about earlier, which is the, well, now we've got to be meta-driven and muddled and have fans choose between two wrestlers they like and all that. Cause I, you know, there comes a point where you just, you have to have the right people, but, and you have to lay the groundwork for it. But when, when you don't have a whole list of opponents that you think are WrestleMania worthy for Cody, they got to start working on that, you know, I mean,

2:18:14 and not burn through them either with short-term matches either.

2:18:16 Yeah. Derek. And you know, I just, this is more wishful thinking desire, but Cody going into WrestleMania is the champion losing to Braun Roman Roman going into WrestleMania is the champion losing to Oba I think is a signal for a new era.

2:18:33 And that's what we, that's what we need. The time is right. There you go.

2:18:38 If you're telling the story, right, obviously they're telling the story that Cody will be prepared to go to this place, right? So he's going to bring an edge to him. Then you've got to carry on from that story because he can't just develop this new edge to him, so to speak, and not have anywhere to go with that. It's almost like he has to come up against a more formidable heel now that he's mentally over this, that he can go to a place and he can punch someone. He can do what's required. So who is the next... I feel like the next step is a formidable heel where Cody can use what he's sort of incorporated against Orton. Like, he just can't go to some heel that we know he's going to beat easily. Do you know what I mean?

2:19:16 I'm trying to figure out what's... I feel like all the top guys, they're always thinking about, okay, what's next for me? It's not just this feud I'm in. What's next and what's next after that? They're always thinking one or two feuds ahead. So I would like to know what Cody has in mind because, you know, he's very intricate in the way he thinks about things. What's next after he gets over this Orton thing and establishes that he's got a bit more of a killer edge to him?

2:19:39 And I'm trying to think of the opponents and I really can't think of one at the moment. That's what's intriguing to me.

2:19:43 I'm with you.

2:19:45 The only one I could think of, but if he's going to be tied down with Trick Williams, it doesn't work, is Damian Priest. I think especially given the way that he viciously attacked R-Truth, I could see Cody and Damian Priest as a fresh matchup that's never been done, that's interesting, and it's coming at a crossroads in both guys' career.

2:20:05 I think that could be intriguing. But if you're going to do Damian and Trick, which I think is worthy... then I understand why you wouldn't give Damien to Cody.

2:20:16 All right, Jason.

2:20:17 Thanks for the discussion, guys. Appreciate your insights, Derek and Wade. I think we covered some good ground. You know what I mean? And I hope the conversation was interesting to the listeners.

2:20:26 Yeah, for sure. Thanks, Jason.

2:20:28 Thanks, guys.

2:20:29 Thanks, Jason. Good dude.

2:20:31 Jason's a good dude. Crofton's a good dude, too.

2:20:35 What about– never mind. I won't bring up names.

2:20:38 Oh, him. I know who you're talking about. Yes, exactly. Not a good dude.

2:20:43 And by the way, you're right about one of those two. I won't say which one. You know that last segment you're just listening to and the next one that you're waiting to listen to? Those can be one second apart with a VIP membership. You can unlock our commercial-free versions of our shows. PWTorch.com slash GoVIP tells you how to do it. That's PWTorch.com slash GoVIP. Options exist within the Apple Podcast app using your Apple account, through Patreon, which by the way, you can sync up with Spotify, or just about any iOS or Android app. With a full VIP membership, you can customize the feed for individual shows and clusters of shows and themes. Go to pwtorch.com slash GoVIP for full details on all the options to listen

2:21:24 commercial free. And with upper tier options, unlock our VIP exclusive podcasts that run throughout the week every week. All right, Powder Repeat with the Super Chat says, I'd like to hear your thoughts on Ricky Saint's progression in-ring and character development. Derek, what do you see?

2:21:40 I think he is kind of where he should be.

2:21:44 With Ricky, I think this is what he's lacking that I wish he would incorporate. I think for most guys, they kind of have to have, like if you're into superhero movies, they kind of have to have their superpower. And that's the thing that makes them stand out. It can be their strength or their speed or their athleticism or their technical ability. Ricky Starks doesn't have a superpower.

2:22:07 So especially when you're an undersized heel without a superpower, I think it makes it difficult to stand out and put heat on a baby face. So I wish you would incorporate this. I think the most important spot for a heel, especially an undersized heel, is what they call a heat spot. And that's after the baby face shines up and proves they're a better wrestler, you have to find a way to take over on the baby face.

2:22:32 And what Fit Finley was a master at is using the ringside environment to draw the baby face in to.

2:22:40 Cut a corner or somehow use.

2:22:42 The ring apron or the robe or the outside table or the post to to take over on the baby face. So you're not blatantly breaking the rule where it's a disqualification, but you're bending a rule to take an advantage. And then you sink in the mean streak. If he changed that little part of his game, so he wasn't just trying to outspeed or out-wrestle someone when they can't, when they can out-wrestle him. I think that would be very meaningful and worth doing for Ricky.

2:23:12 Very good. I will throw a few chat comments up and then Derek will throw to you if there's any topic we haven't covered you want to bring up and then we'll sign off. But Some comments on some of the conversations with Jason D. I think are worth highlighting here. Let's see. Where do I want to start?

2:23:28 Okay.

2:23:28 Goodfellas says priest and trick matches. I'm curious how those matches play out. Shout out to Baron Corbin. Punk turning heel.

2:23:38 Punk.

2:23:39 I only see maybe punk turning heel and getting booed is turning on Oba, but punk is better on SmackDown. He's made the show better with him on it and showing better. and showing with most wrestlers too. That was JC Scooby. The chat from a comment here from Crofton, make Punk get some title opportunities that appears gifted to him against a baby face. Then he wins the belt and he gets some booze and he starts taking shortcuts to defend the belt. It's a gradual turn, but not drastic.

2:24:05 So that's addressing the idea of how does Punk believably turn where it doesn't feel performative or put on. And it's sort of a show me, don't tell me. And let's have it let the fans emotions lead the way as opposed to the promotion or the announcers telling you how to feel, how the fans start to feel it.

2:24:21 And then as I always talk about, then have the announcers amplify and underline feelings they know fans have, but they don't quite know what to do with it. Then the narrative starts amplifying things that the fans started feeling. So it doesn't feel like they're being dragged or led somewhere, but that the narrative is recognizing feelings that are new to them that they're observing. As far as punk goes in Saudi Arabia, if you take the issue with punk having Saudi money, you have to take issue with everyone else on the Saudi show, and that's fair. No, you don't, because a lot of people say, I just want money and I have no morals. And CM Punk said, I would never, well, whatever. You know, like that, it's the,

2:24:58 when you take a stand and then you go against it, it's different than someone who never took a stand because they're like, I don't want to think about things that's above my pay grade or whatever. Derek, do you agree with that?

2:25:06 Yeah, and I have conflicted feelings about any relationship with Saudi Arabia. I mean, I'm a U.S. history major or a history major, I should say. So I would say my background about knowing about Saudi Arabia is probably more than most people who have strong convictions about it. And I'm even not sure about how I feel about the Middle East in general. It's a lot more complicated than people want it to be. And it's not there's not an easy answer to.

2:25:36 Any of that.

2:25:37 I could start a Saudi conversation. I won't. I mean, not I'm scared. It's just we're running long. But I think the idea that. I'll introduce this at least. I think part of what offends people about Saudi Arabia isn't I think they're the ultimate bad guys in the Middle East and they are uniquely unfit and undeserving of WWE matches being staged there.

2:26:05 I think the issue is Saudi Arabia is clearly overpaying for an American product, this part of our culture to sort of sanewash, so to speak, what Saudi Arabia is trying to propagate through propaganda and create an image. And they're overpaying. There's not fan demand for WWE's product that justifies the price they're paying. They're paying a premium. for a purpose that is not how wrestling is supposed to work, which is we go where there's fan demand to pay money to see this. And it makes, it's like WWE used to have, Oh, or how show tennis is down. Well, let's go to Europe. Let's plan a Europe tour. They would go overseas because they were making less money in the United States. They wanted to take a break from towns.

2:26:51 They were burning out. Saudi just feels dirty because the money is being paid as a flat fee to use a product that people want listening to a podcast like this, have a passion for, and they see something that they love and the rest of it, they'd love being used to for a propaganda purpose for a regime that while it may be better or worse than some other middle East countries and historically can put a perspective, but they're the ones who are buying WWE product. And so I think that's where some of the, you know, the, the not angst, but anger comes from, from fans. Derek, does that seem fair? I said, I was going to start a conversation, but there I did.

2:27:27 That's fair. I could start a conversation.

2:27:30 This is the only thing that comes to mind when I think of the middle East and Saudi Arabia, and it comes from a podcast. I listened from the historian Tom Holland, who's got his own podcast. Yeah. But he said this phrase, and it just stuck out to me when I want to judge the Middle East from an ethnocentric viewpoint.

2:27:47 Mm-hmm.

2:27:48 Is the greatest thing that ever happened in the Christian world is that through multiple hundreds of years, we were able to separate the secular from the religious, where they can both exist, but in different planes. And that has completely changed Western society. The Arab world is going through that process right now. And our process took hundreds of years, the Renaissance, the reformation, the counter-reformation through the enlightenment to the reality. They're on that process of modernization right now.

2:28:22 It's not ever been clean. The Christian world wasn't clean. There wasn't either. And as long as it's on that path to modernity, where human rights are more valued, the way you get there is not always going to be what you want it to be. But as long as the ending point and you're reaching towards it, even if it's muddy and it involves wrestling, I support it.

2:28:45 And, and that is the argument in, in essence, Paula Beck in a less graceful way, pitch to wrestlers. We're, we're making progress. It's not going to be all instant. I think the idea, the counter argument to that is they shouldn't be able to use oil money to accelerate the whitewashing, the sane washing, um, They should have to pay a price through.

2:29:15 Being excluded.