5 YRS AGO RAW POST-SHOW: Keller & Stoup evaluate roster reshuffle, Belair-Lynch, RKOBro's future, Damien Priest's refresh

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1:35 Now, PW Torch brings you the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show.

1:44 On today's Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show, five years ago, raw flashback, we jumped back to the October 25th, 2021 post show where Tom Stout from PW Torch joined me and we reviewed the season premiere of WWBMonday.raw, which had live calls and emails adding to the discussion. We talked about what could be learned from how Raw presented its new roster, thoughts on the Fatal 4-Way match and participants, how Big E was presenting himself, including that side view of the monitor backstage, Bianca Belair and Becky Lynch's segment, Bearcat Lee's new gimmick, Damian Priest's refresh. A refresh from Damian Priest. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Also, Liv Morgan, RK-Bro's future, and more. We

2:24 also close with some thoughts on Tuesday night's NXT Halloween Havoc special, since Tom Stout was on the NXT beat at that time. So this is our Raw five years ago flashback for Tuesday, October 27th, 2026. So Tom, this was the new look roster, post-Crown Jewel, post-draft. And they got right to it in terms of the lay of the land in the men's heavyweight division division. Put four top contenders out there and three baby faces, it seemed.

2:54 I mean, presumably, based on everything we saw there and their history, but who knows for how long. And one heel. And the heel won, Seth Rollins, and he earned a future title match against Big E. Was this a good book-ended, kind of paint-by-numbers, but let's just get a good main event out there with four wrestlers who can go and fill the last half hour of the show? and set up right away who the top contender is as that fresh opponent for Big E. That also turns the page on Seth and Edge. Any drawbacks to any of that?

3:29 Yeah, the season debut. Yes, turns the page on Rollins. That is a big advantage here. Also notable that Edge seems to be I'm going to guess on hold until the road to WrestleMania. So it makes the two of them being drafted to the same brand of non-issue since their feud is as over as the announcers told us it was at Crown Jewel. You know, I wish I could be more positive on this, especially since Big E's title run, in my opinion, is going.

4:00 So well so far.

4:04 But this to me felt like just an excuse to try to hold people into the third hour of by announcing the surprise ladder match. You mentioned the cavalcade of baby faces after Seth had already been given the big presentation as like the guy who was coming out. And Seth was the one who was focal throughout the show.

4:27 So for those reasons, it just seemed so obvious that Seth was going to win this in the end. And what I responded to was Big E saying, dude, you lost your last big match. you are in the back of the line as far as I'm concerned. Let's come up with a more logical way to figure out my next contender, which I thought, and maybe this is just me thinking about it too much, but I thought that was going to then open up Rollins to find some way into a more personal feud with Big E and stoke Big E into saying, you know what? Okay, I do want you. To be my next challenger so I can beat you up in that ring. So that's what I was responding to. And then they added all this other stuff onto it that didn't change that. Of course,

5:18 it's going to be Seth coming up.

5:21 I hear what you're saying. I think my response is I don't want Seth in another deeply personal feud right now. I've had my fill of Seth in a deeply personal feud. I'm there. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's an imperfect world and there's not a list of great options that I think they overlooked when getting to this point to kind of just set the stage. I think Big E is a champion against Seth, a legacy star in WWE, former Shield member, you know, WrestleMania main eventer, just an established top guy. For him to be the next opponent, to be fed to Big E, more big picture, I like. Um, I also liked, even though it has some of the negatives that you bring up, which is, so he just gets to be thrown in a four way. And if

6:02 he wins, he gets to be number one, even though he lost all, all these, you know, all these things happen that Biggie brought up. I just like Biggie bringing that stuff up. Like I, I just, that's what you would say. And sometimes WWE, you know, and by sometimes, I mean, usually they are very selective in what they'll bring up and they just want fans to forget anything they don't bring up again. And if it's inconvenient. And in a way, it was inconvenient for the reasons you said.

6:28 I'm kind of on the side of, hey, they brought up something inconvenient. They didn't ignore that Seth lost the feud. They didn't ignore Bobby Lashley lost to Goldberg. They're kind of hanging a lantern on some of the stuff that is inconvenient for Raw post-draft to be talked about regarding some of their top stars. So I am kind of seeing the glass half full as far as some of the approaches they took without... I'm not turning a blind eye to the negatives, but I'm not sure that I like the alternative better.

7:02 Sure, I agree. And this is me. I'm always looking for the story. And I felt like I saw that prime opening for it there. But I am with you that I agree. Seth is the not just of these these people that they presented tonight. But Seth is the right one to go here to go with here, just like they did with Drew last uh, after WrestleMania last year, uh, Seth was that guy then, and he's still in that spot.

7:27 Yeah.

7:28 Yeah.

7:28 What'd you think of the chemistry with Big E and Drew as, you know, two people, I mean, just, you know, sharing screen time at the end after Seth won, is there sort of a main event, big match chemistry there? Does, cause part of the, part of the challenge for Big E and I'm, you know, and Seth to a degree is they're not Roman Reigns. They don't even, you know, they're not Brock Lesnar, uh, They're not even, in a way, Drew.

7:52 Drew has been sort of protected enough once he got to the top. We can put some asterisks next to that. But relative to Seth, who's just been all over the place with his character and the feuds, and Big E, who was part of New Day for so long, and it's not like he's been consistently protected until they decided to push him legit in sort of a surprise late summer, fall mega push of Big E. It's not like he was protected. So does it feel... like it's a main event worthy world title match, or does it feel like the B show with the B world title match? How did they do as far as that goes to your eye?

8:29 I mean, when you've got Roman Reigns on the, on the other brand and Drew probably breathing down his neck real soon, you know, this, this is going to end up being the B program, but I, but I think when you look at the roster raw has right now, this is one of the better options for, you could go with at the moment. As far as their chemistry, I mean, NXT champion number one and number two still at it eight years later and still trying to find themselves, trying to find that the consistent character that they're going to go with Seth, I think is now closer to the best version of himself, the original Seth singles heel run, uh, than he has been in several years. Uh, and big E, uh, What I liked, I liked his nonverbal response to Seth

9:18 laughing in his face and calling him boy. But, you know, it was like, OK, how's Big E going to react to this? And what I have especially liked about Big E's presentation thus far is that it shares hallmarks with John Cena's presentation. They've done they've hooked viewers with intra show angles with Big E the same way they would with Cena. They've presented Big E as indomitable and with certain spots in his matches that remind me so much of Cena. And even the, you know, the city, the glad handy city naming Welcome to Monday Night Raw.

10:00 Promo.

10:00 He got this got today very much reminded me of that. But then in that moment, you know, just looking at Seth, it felt like him. It wasn't just OK. This isn't just the Cena playbook. Um, it, it, it isn't just the Hogan playbook, which was, you know, so much of the Cena playbook was that as well. Um, he, there is some personality here and it was just a little glimpse, but, uh, but yeah, they could have done more, but we've got, we've got a while to go.

10:29 I thought we got a serious version of Big E for the most part. And I actually, like, I, I'm, I've been advocating for Big E to carry himself like a serious top tier world champion and not somebody desperate to be liked by being the clown. because I think he's beyond that in terms of his push, and I think he's a more compelling and interesting figure when he's serious than he apparently gives himself credit for or the people producing him give him credit for. That said, I loved his mega, mega, mega side view look at the monitor.

11:00 It's ridiculous how wrestlers are positioned. We won't recognize them if we only see their profile because we need to see their entire face, so they do this stupid thing. AEW has poked fun at it. You know, the Young Bucks have done the exaggerated side view of the monitor backstage, a sort of a wink to the audience. I love that Biggie did it. And if that, if just sneak stuff like that in when it's like, you know, it, it, the, the, it fit the moment, you know, I'm keeping my eye on this match, but I'm going to wink to the audience with the idea that I'm even more sideways than everyone else. Like he can't help himself. So let it, let that be the area he does it and not in the ring or on his way to the ring

11:39 for that matter. um i'm i'm you know i thought tonight he was serious and you know at the beginning in the opening segment and at the end with seth and there's always that sense that he's holding back a little and you know that and at his in his heart he wants to be more playful and gregarious and all that but being world champion and having this clown you're laughing in your face cackling in your face like seth you know calls for him to be a little more serious and go, you know, dude, this is more serious than, than you, you know, the situation is more serious than you're, you're conveying it. So I just thought Biggie kind of hit the right tone for me. This is what I've been kind of hope where I thought

12:16 where I had been hoping he would land as a top singles act. And he is the first face in the opening of raw, you know, they're not saying, well, he's a, he, they're not saying he's a champion, but you know, Bobby Lashley is a bigger star for that matter. Even Becky or Bianca, he got the opening He's the opening image of the new opening to Raw, and that isn't, you know, thought goes into that. That's not an accident.

12:39 Absolutely, and that's what I mean with the Cena playbook comparisons, that they are sending the signals, at least I'm picking up on signals, that there is more to being invested in him than just, oh, he was the guy to put it on for now, but, you know, we're looking past him. So it does seem. Like they are committed to this. And I agree, Big E was in the right lane tonight. And when it comes to his style of humor, I also agree that the little things like the sly, making fun of himself, you know, himself in this case, you know, making fun of the WWE, the company he's associated with, his own territory, that is where I think his humor lands best. So, yep.

13:21 Very good.

13:21 All right, let's pause and introduce the show. I do want to get into talking about who wasn't in the top Who wasn't picked and why for that fatal four-way? They easily could have not had Balor or KO or Rey in that match. We'll kind of get into the post-draft hints, reading the tea leaves, as far as where different people are, and we'll do that soon here. Your time is valuable. Go VIP and listen to our shows commercial-free.

13:50 A nice streamlined listening experience. pwtorch.com slash govip. for full details on a commercial-free listening experience. And with a full VIP membership, you can create custom feeds for individual shows or groups of shows by theme and also unlock nearly four decades of archives and access our ad-free website with VIP-exclusive content. pwtorch.com slash govip. Your time is valuable, and that's one of the reasons we offer VIP membership. pwtorch.com slash govip. This is the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show for Monday, October 28th, 2021. And I'm Wade Keller, the host of the program, the editor, publisher, founder of the Pro Wrestling Torch Weekly Newsletter and the website PWTorch.com.

14:38 And also host of this, the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show and also the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast. Those are free. They drop throughout the week on our blue logo and red logo feeds. This is a red logo feed. Seth would like the color of our logo. And we also have the blue feed for our regular podcasts as opposed to the post shows. Tomorrow, Jason Powell from ProWrestling.net joins me for our every three-week flagship get-together.

15:03 And that means start sending in your emails. Send in your questions for the flagship tomorrow. We'll be recording tomorrow afternoon and dropping it late tomorrow. So be on the lookout for that if you haven't yet. Search Wade Keller in your podcast app and enter Wade Keller and then subscribe to both the Reds and the blue logos to get both podcast feeds for free on your phone. I'm also the host of the Fix with Todd Martin and Everything with Rich Fan and Post-Pay-Per-View Roundtables and also the Daily Wade Keller Hotline. And those are all VIP exclusive, so go VIP if you want to hear all that we do and have our full selection. That full selection includes shows from today's co-host. The voice you hear is

15:46 Tom Stelp from the PWT Talks NXT podcast PWTorch Dailycast, and you can get that show for free by searching PWTorch on your podcast app every Tuesday night after NXT, including after tomorrow night's Halloween Havoc special. So great timing to have Tom on to talk about a major NXT event as the show progresses here to preview it a bit.

16:05 He will be live. Tom, you're going to be on the show this week, right?

16:09 Yes, yes, absolutely.

16:10 Sometimes it's two of you, not all three. But Tom will be on with a live post show, so join them after Halloween Havoc tomorrow night live, or Download the show. Again, search PWTorch to subscribe. He also hosts with Kelly Wells eight years back, NXT eight years back. Tom, welcome.

16:30 Thank you. Good to be back on. I wasn't, I was focusing on other hobbies for several months there, but I was glad to get the call again. And yes, at Tom Staub on social media, I've been up to a lot and all the links to all that stuff is there and I may I may tug your ear about it soon enough, but importantly now, I am, and I hope you are as well, looking forward to a promising Halloween Havoc card. And we will be discussing that, as you said, on PWT Talks NXT on the Daily Cast line after the show goes off the air tomorrow night. And, you know, Saturday has become a busy day over on PW Torch VIP. But Kelly Wells and I are still having a lot of fun with our in what I have found to be quite an intriguing look back exactly

17:23 eight years to the day at what NXT was doing since it was it was it was it was.

17:29 Nine years ago now. But, you know, we stay up with it. It was nine years ago that they.

17:35 Will you ever catch up?

17:37 You know, I think we haven't actually explicitly discussed it. I think we are planning on catching up to ourselves. So that would be December 2017 when we started the Daily Cast. So then we can say that, you know, we've covered the breadth of you know, NXT past the, you know, the quote game show phase.

17:58 But we have a lot of fun with that.

18:00 And it is really, really interesting to cover some flame outs, but mostly the people who rose in that incarnation of NXT and that we're still talking about on main roster television today.

18:14 And one of them was Big E, you know, during his NXT run. You know, this was a time when, I mean, it was a few weeks back, you're talking about him against Curtis Axel as You know, two rising stars, who knows who would become the bigger star, the Kurt Henning, the Kurt Henning son, or this Big E fellow. What have you noticed about looking back at Big E that either does or doesn't surprise you about the career trajectory he's had in the eight years since?

18:43 There are a number of things I could mention. The first thing popping to mind was actually something Kelly said Because I, along with many other people, continually lamented that Big E never brought... the five count, which of course was not originally his, but it was really fun. I mean, it was the thing to see on NXT for a while there. Like it was the reason you were going to Full Sail was to see Big E collect a five count over somebody after hitting multiple big endings. And it was a shame that he did not bring that to the main roster. And Kelly, and this is the sort of thing that he has a booker's mind. And he pointed out, of course, he didn't bring it to the main roster because there aren't nearly as many people

19:24 that you can do a five count on in that territory. And it was just an epiphany for me, like, oh, that that makes total sense. But it is I did observe on the on the night when Biggie won the championship, how happy I was, but also how strange it was. that it took that long because he really seemed like they could have hotshotted him a lot faster to the top.

19:49 Are there any ways he's noticeably better or in or on the other side of things, stunted or worse than he was early on and what you thought his trajectory would be?

20:00 You know, something that was a big surprise in doing the retrospective, and we, both Kelly and I, are not quite caught up to when we were watching weekly. So there's still some content in our retrospective that's new to our eyes. A lot of the Big E run was like that. And I had just, in my memory, I had just decided that Big E was always dead serious and always just the killer. on NXT. And that was the total presentation. But I think what surprised me most is that, uh, he hasn't, he hasn't actually changed a whole lot. He was comfortable, uh, in, in, at, in the full sale live studio, uh, on the network, on Hulu, in, in that, uh, in front of that crowd being himself and that like all of his signature humor is there. Uh,

20:52 he still is the same guy. So I think, um, I think that's something that's notable that he's managed to, uh, to keep that around.

21:00 So check them out tomorrow night or download the show Wednesday morning. There's a new show every day on the PWTorch Daily Cast lineup. It's the third free feed that we have here at the Torch. There's Wade Keller Post Show, Wade Keller Podcast, and the PWTorch Daily Cast lineup. A different show every day of the week covering different subject matters such as ROH, MMA Talk for pro wrestling fans, and more. Check out the full lineup at PWTorchDailyCast.com or again, search PWTorch. No reason not to. It's free and there's going to be at least one show there for you.

21:29 In fact, we just ran... Over the weekend, or no, was that on, I'm not sure if I put it on the interview classic feed or not, but the Randy Mulkey interview that Jim Valli and Pat McNeil did five years ago. Now I'm starting to think that was on our Wade Keller flashback feed. I'm not even sure. But anyway, there's cool stuff on there is what I'm saying. That's what I'm trying to say. All right, let's give out the phone numbers here and the emails. If you're listening to us live, you are invited to join the conversation.

22:00 Don't be shy. We love to hear from first-time callers, male and female. It doesn't have to be 98% male callers. I know our listenership isn't. So all of you consider yourself invited.

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24:02 All right.

24:02 We're going to continue our conversation here. I'll get to calls and emails in a sec. I want to follow up so I don't forget on what I said I wanted to cover first, which was a follow-up to our talk about the Fatal 4-Way Match. We'll certainly get to Becky and Bianca and other happenings that were actually on the show, but One thing that struck me, and I put this in my report on Raw at PWTorch.com, is I always like when they have a new opening theme to document who's in it, in what order, and how frequent.

24:31 And I didn't actually add up how many times some of the top stars were on, but I did document the order, and it started off with Big E, as I noted, and then AJ Styles and Omos, Carmella, Carmello, I almost said Carmello, Carmella, The Mysterios, Kevin Owens, Rhea Ripley, the Street Profits, Bianca Belair. So Bianca kind of late in the mix, but she can't feel bad because then it's Nia Jax and finally Becky Lynch and Seth Rollins, notably back to back. That was a nice touch. And then Riddle, Bobby Lashley, Randy Orton, John Morrison, Miz, Alexa Bliss, some repeats, Bearcat Lee, Damian Priest, more repeats, Edge, Finn Balor, and more repeats. Now, I only went through it once.

25:12 It's possible I missed someone, but it was notable who wasn't in this. And this will play into my kind of next phase of this topic. Tom, Gable Steveson was not in it. Some people, not surprisingly, like Reggie or Riker or Tozawa or even T-Bar, Drake Maverick, R-Truth, they weren't in it. But no Otis either. You know, you'd think if they have Otis penciled in as a potential biggie opponent, and maybe they don't, but it seemed like they were at least flirting with pushing him to that degree.

25:38 He's not in the opening. That sends a signal to me he's not imminently getting a top-tier push. however you feel about that. Veer wasn't in it, even though he got a vignette tonight on Raw, and they are kind of high on him and going to give him a chance. And Austin Theory is kind of the shiny new toy, the 24-year-old upstart. I want to get your thoughts on what they've done on the main roster with him. But he wasn't in it, and no Karrion Kross quickly held a mighty fall, another NXT alum, Tom. So we have that.

26:07 So with that said, I think, again, that's the first– informal, not 100% accurate, but not irrelevant either, hint of who they have their eye on to give a significant push to early on. And then my question to you, Tom, is does any of that surprise you in part B? Are you surprised they didn't insert some of them into the fatal four-way instead of some of them that you did?

26:31 If there was maybe one wrestler who wasn't in the fatal four-way that you think would have been a better pick to maybe even out the heel-heel-face-face thing, or anything else. Your thoughts on that?

26:43 You know, I was trying to be mindful of the same thing, and I was looking up and down the new Raw roster, and I couldn't bring myself to be too disappointed with how things shook out if they did have to go the way they did tonight. I think, you know... when you look at somebody like Randy Orton or somebody like, uh, AJ Styles, or even, even, even Amos or Riddle. I mean, we're looking at people who are tied up in other things right now. Uh, they, they're obviously doing something different with, with Keith Lee, um, Austin theory. They're doing something different with him right now. It's, I think it's promising a teaser for whenever we talk more about that. Um, but the only name that didn't have another presence on the show, uh, or when they

27:30 put up the big graphic of the roster, I don't remember whether he was even mentioned by Corey Graves or whomever, is of course Karrion Kross. You know, we're not really missing out on too much there. I was saying the things about him on NXT that you now say about him on the main roster, that he just sort of has a Halloween mask face and doesn't back up his work as well in the ring. Granted, We had to be forgiving of him to an extent in the at the tail end of his run because they just kept putting him with, you know, Johnny Gargano and Samoa Joe and other people who could elevate him to to very good matches. But, you know, he just he's a very one dimensional character. And I, you know, if I if

28:14 I wanted to force myself, I would say the other name is T-Bar because he's someone that you could just throw into that position and he would do just fine. I've seen T-Bar have matches that I really liked before. I've also seen T-Bar have matches that I thought were just blatant spot spot fests before. And I also and I know this isn't a super popular opinion. I also feel like he has historically had a similar not to the same extent, but a similar issue. to that which we see with Carrion Cross, that his his facial expressions are, if not one dimensional, at least overly cartoony and and perhaps not befitting of everything else he's trying to achieve with whatever character he's portraying. So I'm not lamenting too

29:00 much that he was, you know, that both he and Mace are separate, but still in the exact same positions as they were before the draft.

29:10 Yeah, I think when you look at including Kevin Owens and Rey and Balor, if anything, it's sort of bad news for, I don't say bad news for those three, that might be overstating it, but it says we're willing to put you in a top match and have you lose right away. And so it's not so much bad news for them because they're all established stars, legacy acts in WWE at this point, all three with me. I mean, they listed all their accomplishments. And so they're kind of the go-to people that if they ask for it, it makes sense that the authority figure would give it to them.

29:40 If T-Bar walked out there and wanted it, people would be like, really? Just because he said he wants it, you're going to give him that kind of opportunity? He hasn't done anything yet. To me, everybody else deserves a little bit more of a slow build. Bearcat Lee, if he's in there, he's going to lose. Do you really want him to lose again or come up short again, even if he's not, quote, losing because he's just knocked out at ringside or, you know, diving at the ladder as Seth pulls the briefcase down or something. It's still him in a situation where he's a player in the mix, but it's not all about him. And I don't know that his character can afford that. Damian Priest, they've refreshed his character. You don't want him in a situation where

30:16 also he's not going to come out on top. Balor and KO and Rey, they can all handle that because they've just sort of been through the ringer, their pushes are start-stop, they're utility guys that can be against any top-tier opponent and seem credible, but you don't look at any of the three and go, oh, keep them out of the mix until you're really ready to go with them.

30:35 So to me, it made sense. I hadn't looked fully since the show just ended when we went live at the options, but I knew they were out there. You don't want to put Karrion Kross out there because you really have to spend more time figuring out the match. In order to protect him and protect others. I should say protect others from him. But the chemistry isn't just the natural flow. You can just drop the four wrestlers who are in that match in the ring with no notice.

31:01 And they can put on a good match. And they didn't put anyone in there who's going to distract from that. And need a lot more attention or get lost. So I thought it was just a smart main event that used some of the new star power that Raw has. and the three people who didn't win will move on to other things. If we're going to learn anything, it's just they aren't protecting KO or Balor for a top-tier push anytime super soon, or I don't think they would have put them in that position. They would have subbed someone else in there. I mean, you can always just take it, but they had Ziggler and Maru do something else, but a Ziggler type can just come out and go, I'm a former champion too, and I haven't had a

31:39 chance in X number of years, and then he gets to be in there to take a bunch of bumps and make the match better. They could have done that, and they didn't. didn't need to because of the people they use so I think it was smart again through the lens that WWE books and the the where all the wrestlers are you know kind of taking all that into account it made sense there's no real head scratcher that was included no head scratcher that was left off um and you know the only the only I guess the biggest booking negative is just Seth as a heel beat three babyfaces in a match with no rules so there wasn't anything he actually did unfairly he didn't have help from anyone and so it gives him maybe it's

32:16 good to give them credibility, but it also, it's like you gave a heel, a clean win over three baby faces. Um, and sometimes that can be troublesome, but in this case, I think it worked on.

32:26 Yeah.

32:26 Like you said, you can justify each of them if there's any disappointment in it. And, you know, I stand by what I said about, uh, about T-bar, but you know, you could have done something like that where if you, if you presented it the right way, if he's just saying, listen, I, I just, I, I, acknowledge or have commentary frame his history or just say, you know what? It's the season debut, according to Jimmy Smith. So we'll just we'll just put Dijak out there that he's asking for the spot. And then you do the Von Wagner thing with him, the Cal Bloom thing. You know, OK, you know, you've got Kyle O'Reilly and Pete Dunn and Ciampa and Cal Bloom for some reason. OK, sure. You know, they're sending the signal.

33:08 And then, you know what? He actually did pretty well in there. So now we know he's a guy to watch. They could have done that. But, you know, even even with with Ray Baller and Owens having been in this exact position for years now, like you said, you can't can't get too up in.

33:25 Arms about it.

33:26 Every day there they fit.

33:28 They're reliable.

33:30 And you can justify if you think about it for two seconds, you can justify why they're there.

33:34 Absolutely.

33:35 Absolutely. It's next-level coverage that you come to expect from the PW Torch brand. No AI, no rookie perspectives, no unfounded rumors, no clickbait, no deceptive headlines, just high-quality writing, breaking news, and fascinating flashbacks every day at pwtorch.com. Pull yourself away from the vacuous social media experience that I know many of you regret once you get lost in it for minutes, if not hours at a time, and settle in for high-quality PW Torch-branded wrestling coverage. Let's take our first phone call here, and we'll go to Nick in Brattleboro. Nick, one of our regulars, welcome. What stood out on Raw tonight for you?

34:17 Good evening, Tom. It's good to talk to you. I haven't spoken in a while. Likewise, man. I wanted to touch base on Carmella and Liv Morgan. I'm going to stay away from the big stuff for a while.

34:31 Yep, absolutely.

34:34 I'm a little worried that Liv reverted back a little bit to her, excuse my language, shake her butt and.

34:42 It's more jiggling her chest, but yeah.

34:44 Trance on down. Yeah, well, I didn't want to say it.

34:49 I'm just being specific.

34:50 She's paying tribute to Eddie Guerrero.

34:52 Yeah, exactly. Which Austin Theory then did, if I remember right. When he was glowing.

34:58 Oh, so Austin was doing the Liv Morgan thing. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.

35:02 Yeah, yeah. Well, and then Dominic did it also. They were all shaking their moneymakers.

35:10 There's an edict now.

35:12 You've got to get out there and shake them.

35:14 Biggie's jealous.

35:15 Well, you've got to shake your moneymaker, and you've got to protect your moneymaker. That's the other big thing in that match. I just, you know, it's just too bad. I mean, it's just. You know, that match, they've run this match so many times, but on SmackDown, not Raw. And it's just put two women out there who are extremely attractive, are wearing very low-cut, chest-exposing outfits. And then having Liv, who for a little microsecond, she was... you know, gonna try, you know, they were trying to make her credible and now they have her, you know, prancing out for the wet t-shirt contest. And I just wonder if you got that same impression.

36:06 Yeah.

36:07 Yeah.

36:07 I mean, this is sort of a middle ground between the worst and the better that I've seen in recent weeks. Um, but it, it was a step backwards, I guess. Um, I mean, I don't, what is Liv's character, Tom? What is like, what is she like if someone's, if you're watching and again, it's not wrestling doesn't have to be, Oh, you can tell someone in three sentences what someone's all about.

36:28 Like that's not a rule, but in WWE, it's sort of consistently as a thing. And if you don't have that, you're probably not going to succeed within the system or it's a sign. They're not even bothering to, you know, they don't, they don't know what you are and it's going to hold you back. What is live? What, what, what would you tell someone in two, three sentences is live.

36:46 Cause you can say that about everybody else on this women's roster.

36:49 Probably.

36:51 Probably the hardest question I'll be asked all night. Liv's situation is constantly perplexing. They've tried to get behind her six or seven times. And every time the rug gets pulled out, not after a good college try with some elbow grease, after one match or, you know, one match in a promo. They keep on giving up on her and fans still seem to be behind her because she comes off as a very genuine and kind and likable person, just sort of the person that you naturally want to see succeed. But she's also someone who we haven't seen her in our retrospective yet. I'm not sure if eight years ago she was signed yet, but I don't think she's too far off. And what I really remember about her NXT run is that she was always the part

37:40 that you know, once every three or four shows where she comes out and you're just like, what are they doing with her? And so it goes back that far.

37:51 And it's just... It's baffling to me.

37:53 I know this is a really mean thing to say, but it's baffling to me with all the people they've given up on and cut loose that she is still around. So didn't really surprise me that Carmela got the win. I absolutely see. I mean, you can't not see what Nick is pointing out about their characterization, but. While I will acknowledge that WWE is very frequently putting me in a position where I feel like I need to mention it on these post shows, I do. I do. I am OK with this being a type of character that women on the show play when it isn't exclusively the type of character that all women on the show play, especially when they're backing it up in other ways. I've been so far a big defender of what Mandy Rose

38:40 has been doing. on NXT 2.0, her character is extremely shallow, but it's being sold well through promos and video packages. And she's backing it up in the ring so far. She's had three matches on the show and they've all been better than any other Mandy Rose match we've ever seen in the past. So something's going on. And I really respond to that with Carmella. I think she just really leans in to like, it's on paper, Terrible character, but she just leans into it so much to the point where I even love the mask because it's so ridiculous and it's so her.

39:16 What do you think they've missed out on with any of the Liv Morgan incarnations or hints of what she was? Is she better off more naturally as a heel or a face? Is there a version of her that had they just stuck one... with it or tweaked it that could have been her thing because like you say carmella reinvented herself leaned into it and it's totally believable i'm still not sure if she's supposed to be beautiful or not and we're supposed to go she's you know like she's okay but she's not like gorgeous or if the or if it's like she thinks she really is gorgeous and this is a natural and she's just amplifying it and that's kind of part of like the intrigue it's like is she delusional or is it just a matter

39:53 of taste or what's going on here but i just know one thing she's just too full of herself to cheer it's like it's clear and then yeah the mass thing is just in the way she you know worships the the craftsmanship of it and all that so we get that what's live and was there a better version of her at some point tom going back to that part of my question yeah it's almost the tyler breeze thing of like i i am gonna wrestle but just don't hit my face yeah yeah uh, yeah, I think the best we ever saw live was a show that I'm pretty sure I was on the post show with you on, uh, during the empty full sale days when she wrestled Charlotte. And I mean, you could tell Charlotte, we call them the days of uncertainty, uncertain times, uncertain times, uncertain.

40:40 Um, You know, Charlotte was having a really excellent run there and having good matches with Mia Yim and Ruby Riot. I mean, you can't not have a good match with Ruby Riot unless you're Brie Bella. And I think that was Liv's best moment. And it wasn't too radically different from what she's doing now. I think the difference is just that in that moment, it seems like WWE was quite simply just going along with fan sentiment for her.

41:14 And I think when it comes to Liv, that's just as easy as it is. She has something of an underdog appeal, especially when she has somebody better than her leading her through the match. I mean, that's why she was paired with Ruby, I think, for so long. And I think that that's all it is, is just following through on that. If you Liv is the kind of person that if you book her to win, I guess you could say this about anyone, but particularly with her.

41:44 It's just as simple as putting her in the W column, and fans will be there for her.

41:50 All right, very good. Nick, any follow-up on that or anything else?

41:57 Yeah, quick follow-up. I so much liked her when she was the wild child of the Riot Squad with the— blue tongue, and at least, I mean, there was something there. I mean, she was, you know, there was something, you know, she was all, you know, it was all, you know, roses and rainbows and pink elephants, but then underneath it, you got this feeling that she was like, this woman is nuts.

42:27 The Harley Quinn vibe.

42:28 That was interesting. Yeah, I mean, but it wasn't blatantly Harley Quinn. It was, she was just, it was just, you know, that's, you know, just quickly, I think Margot, the way she does Harley Quinn is just so good. I mean, she is so good as that character. But anyway, the other, what do you think is going to happen with, Keith Lee I'm not going to use it I'm not going to say it is he is this heel is this badass baby face is this I'm just I'm really curious what your guys thoughts are is where they're going with him or are they just kind of throwing him out there and see kind of let the let the ether tell them where to.

43:23 Go I suspect they have a plan I don't know for sure because, you know, they could ease him into something and then, boom, spring on us that, you know, no, he's a heel.

43:33 I'm, you know, enjoying him, what.

43:35 Hissing, you know, making, like, bearcat noises. I'm sure he's watched some bearcat videos to try to get the mannerisms and the tongue down. So, I mean, you know, there's just sort of a pleasure in seeing someone, you know, try to lean into the character. Keith Lee is, you know, was Liv Morgan-like in the sense that Vince didn't like his NXT shtick. You know, changed it right away, just like, who do you think you are? You haven't earned that kind of You know, not around here. You don't get to do that. So Vince has been looking for something.

44:01 I mean, you know, I don't have a problem with Bearcat. Someone can explain to me why I should, and then maybe I'll change my mind. So I don't know. It's something for a guy who was left with nothing other than a really plain name. That sounds like the next male interviewer would be called that, you know, because there are always first names. It's like there's, you know, Kevin Patrick, and now it'll be– you know, next could have been a Keith Lee, uh, Tom, your, your thoughts.

44:31 Uh, I think it's one thing to say, Oh, Damien priest has a devil inside because his name is Damien priest.

44:40 And we want to give him another layer.

44:41 And it's another thing to tell Keith Lee to act like an animal because he's arbitrarily a bear cat. Now, um, I'm not going to be super down, uh, on the bear cat thing because I also was not clicking with his prior presentation. So if they're going to try to fit him into a lane, at least this is a lane, but when he's coming out there and he's roaring clearly because he's been told to, um, and, and doing those mannerisms, um, it's, it's something I, like I, this being night one of, of this particular version of the presentation, it has to be a wait and see. Um, I'm going to say bad-ass baby face. Um, when I say wait and see though, I mean, this is Keith Lee. I'm going to believe a push when I see it. Uh, they've, they've started

45:36 and stopped with him a couple of times. Uh, even, even back on NXT, it seemed like the last time they really, the last time this company really had a plan for this guy was, uh, was with his North American championship run, uh, And since then it's just been seat of the pants. Um, so yeah, believe it when I see it, I'm willing to see it and, and hopefully it starts to click more tonight. Rocky start.

46:02 I don't know what the intended audience is for the bear cat gimmick. Like, is it, you know, 30 year old men who are like, Oh, bear cat. That sounds cool. Is it eight year olds who have an affinity for grown men acting like, you know, a certain animal and bear cat might be their favorite animal. Like I just, I'm not quite sure what the hook is and they haven't done it. They've just told us that's his name now, but we knew him as Keith Lee. Now he's Bearcat Keith Lee.

46:26 Why?

46:27 Like, can we like hear from the guy? Like what's, even if it's corny, I mean, you've done it, do it. If you, if you're going to do it, then do it to have him have, you know, whoever Kayla or whoever Sarah Shriver go, you know, have a sit down. If you go, you know, Keith Lee, you're known as Keith Lee and now you're Bearcat. What's this all about? And, Give us a backstory. Let us understand what he's channeling and what it is. And I just, I want him, if they're going to do it, be all in with it.

46:55 And it just sort of seems like, well, we got him a nickname now that'll make, it's more interesting than Keith Lee. And that's, and now he's going to, you know, make animal noises. So yeah, I mean, we'll see. I mean, obviously he's talented. He comes with some baggage and it'd be great if, you know, they could figure out a way to focus on what he's really good at and not get hung up on Other issues that might not be relevant to making money with him. And, you know, adding some depth to that raw roster. And that might include being a babyface for a while and then turning heel.

47:28 You know, but you don't want to turn heel because you're not over as a face. You want to turn heel because you're over as a face, you have momentum, and turning heel takes you to the next level. And they got some work to do as far as that goes with him.

47:42 On Tuesday nights, the conversation doesn't stop when NXT ends. It's just getting started. I'm Nate Lindberg, and alongside my co-host Kelly Wells, we bring you PWT Talks NXT. We go live on the PWTorch YouTube channel about 15 minutes after the show to break down matches, storylines, and surprises. And we take your questions. questions and comments from the live chat miss us live but you still want to be part of the show send your thoughts to pwtorchnxt at gmail.com and catch the replay on youtube or on the pw torch daily cast feed just search pw torch on apple podcast spotify or wherever you listen and of course you can always stream the latest shows at pwtorch.com.

48:20 Thank you anything else you want to add Yeah, last thing, I'm sure you noticed, but I thought it was very interesting that they did that little five-minute SmackDown report, you know, kind of so that they can have Roman Reigns on Raw every week just by doing, and now your SmackDown update, and then they can show the main Roman Reigns angle for that week. Just thought, I thought that was very...

48:51 I don't know what it says. Was Fox a little pissed off that they lost Becky? So now they've got to say, yeah, but you're going to get advertising on USA. Don't worry about it. Or what? I thought it was just very interesting.

49:07 Yeah, it was noteworthy.

49:07 I noticed it. It would be pure conjecture, pure wild conjecture on why they did it. They might think they just want to do more crossover. Tom, I think they should be doing much more with NXT. Instead of generic Halloween Havoc is tomorrow, center it around what Halloween Havoc is about. Braun Breaker should be, if you're going to have him on USA Network and you're trying to draw ratings, as opposed to hiding him on a regional cable network until you're ready to have him make a big splash nationally.

49:38 They're in this weird in-between zone and they're just– they're not accomplishing either. He's out there. He'll never be fresh exploding on the scene as a new act because he's on national TV in front of a million people a week when you start counting– well, more than that when you count like YouTube highlight clips and all that. He's also a name among WWE fans for the most part.

49:58 But you're not going all out with him. Well, if he's going to be in your main event, like why not advertise that on Raw? It's on the same network the next night. And if you can do a video package on Chrome Jewel, video package on Roman Reigns, you can also air soundbites from Ciampa and Braun Breaker and other wrestlers or, heck, have Vic Joseph or Wade Barrett sell the damn thing and be like, tune in tomorrow night.

50:23 You know, they can do a little split screen with Jimmy Smith and Corey and Byron and be like, our colleagues here at NXT have, you know, it's a big event tomorrow. Let's talk to them briefly about that. You know, I think they're worried they'd lose viewers, but I don't, video package is going to lose viewers commercial breaks and lose viewers if you have a good main event they'll stick around and be there so i just think they're they're just it's half-assing and in terms of promoting this other show the next night on the same network that could use some new viewers push matches push specific top names and make the show not brand generic but about a fast rising star um testing testing himself tomorrow night tom.

51:00 Absolutely with you uh i think that NXT 2.0 is very clearly targeting a younger audience. One of my signals there is that in my mid to late 30s now, there's a lot of stuff that people are talking about on the show. Then the references fly right over my head. It's part of a culture that I am no longer immersed in. And so I'm like, oh, well, this is this is landing with somebody, I'm sure of it. And I think that is a deliberate.

51:27 Choice to aim younger.

51:30 And they're just, again, like I said, I'm not tuned in to TikTok or whatever. Maybe they're advertising on there and I'm just missing it. But it's hard not to notice when last week they do two ads after focusing so much on the sexuality in NXT, which It is not an NXT trademark, so you can tell, based on the clips that they're using, that they are just reaching. Like, you know, Cora Jade is smooching her boyfriend Trey Baxter backstage.

52:03 They're like, we just got to get every little ounce that we can get and pack it into these ads. Show Mandy Rose and JC Jane as many times as you can, because that's how they were selling it for a while. And then coming off of... And like you said, like the very unfortunate blink and miss at Halloween Havoc ads tonight, which I don't think even had.

52:22 It always.

52:23 this is a broader thing, but it always bugs me when ads don't narrate the text on the screen. I don't think the Halloween Havoc ads do, because especially nowadays, you're looking at your phone. You're not looking at the TV screen. So talk to me.

52:37 Tell me what you're advertising.

52:40 But it's hard not to notice when last week they do a Top Chef ad with Drew McIntyre, who I guess is on it, so he's going to be in the ad anyway. But then It segues into the show and Byron Saxton is talking about this WWE Top Chef crossover that they are proud to be a part of and they want you to watch. And they're now naturally or, you know, as naturally as they come off speaking about it outside the blended into the show. And exactly what you said is what's missing when, you know, they show the Halloween Havoc ad and then it's just done. And you don't have Byron Saxton going, you know, you need to check out Braun Breaker on Tuesday nights. He has exploded onto the scene. He can lift people up and

53:24 throw them around like it's nothing. And he has stepped to the two-time champion, Tommaso Ciampa, and he will try to win that championship tomorrow night. And then Corey Graves says, oh, my God, Byron, have you seen Toxic Attraction? They are running the brand now. Mandy is the new face of NXT. And, you know, tomorrow night on Halloween Havoc, they are vying for both the women's single and the women's tag championships.

53:47 And they are going to walk out covered in gold and, you know, try to sell it a little bit. And that's all you need. I don't need a split screen interview or anything. Or maybe, you know, go as far as showing a recap of what happened last week, you know, like they did with SmackDown. which I covered the alternate perspective report last week, and that was one of the main things I noticed, that in the Crown Jewel go-home, they didn't do a single thing to really focus on the biggest match on the show. Even with Charlotte and Bel-Air...

54:28 positioned and told throughout the night as a worthy and intriguing main event, when they started making their entrances 25 minutes before the show was going to go off the air, I was thinking they're going to close with a big Reigns and Lesnar package. And they didn't. And that felt like it was missing. You know, we all know that it's going on. But if they want to do that hard sell, that storyline is so intriguing and Um, and, and they just, uh, they just didn't mention it.

54:58 So that was bizarre.

54:59 And, um, so, so for that reason, anyway, I, I didn't mind seeing the, uh, SmackDown recap on tonight's show.

55:07 Yeah.

55:07 I'd like to see more just, you know, synergy, um, you know, Sonya Deville and Adam Pearce appear on Raw and SmackDown. Um, you know, I, you know, Michael Cole called a bunch of, you know, raw matches at Crown Jewel. I mean, it's not like, they're pretending they're rivals with a hard divide and it's Stephanie versus Shane or Bischoffers.

55:25 It's like, they're not doing that. So promote, cross promote your damn shows, you know, and don't act like they're separate entities. And like, yeah, like you said, at least have the announcers talk it up and embrace what NXT is, you know, just say, Hey, you know, this raw roster is great. And you know what we have? We got a bunch of former NXT champions on this show and then list them. We've got a bunch of people who were prominent stars on NXT and, If you tune in Tuesday night, you're going to be ahead of the curve.

55:50 You're going to know, you know, a lot of those wrestlers someday are going to end up on Raw or SmackDown. And we hope they, you know, we hope some of them end up on Raw. Braun Breaker is one of them that I love, you know, Corey Graves can say, or Byron Saxon can say, and just tout somebody. It's, you know, WWE has moved into the brand business and it costs them. And, you know, AEW is in the brand business too, because they run on, you know, an ensemble company for better, for worse. And there's pros and cons to it. But WWE, I remember the NBA like 20 years ago, they're like, stop talking about the star players and start talking about the cities and the logos and the teams and the legacy of the teams it's

56:23 not Michael Jordan and the Bulls it's the Chicago Bulls with Michael Jordan that kind of thing and it didn't last because it's a league of stars and WWE doesn't want to do that for you know they have their reasons and that's I get the business side of that the leverage they gain from it but I think they've gone too far with it like start promoting your stars and not just the three that you think are in a good spot who are your difference makers you know talk about Tommaso Ciampa in a way where he becomes more of a household name. So you can draw that rating on Tuesday night. And I just think there's some things they're not rethinking that are things they've done for reasons that are a little antiquated now. And they could

57:00 use a fresh brainstorming conversation that wouldn't be just shot down as, you know, you're wasting my time, you idiot, which is sort of the vibe you get in terms of some of the things we bring up on this show when I think of someone actually brought them up behind the scenes.

57:14 Yeah, they've been caught in for years. They've been caught in an increasingly odd middle ground between developmental television with the people who are more ready for for primetime players and and, you know, be trying to be their own brand. And I know a lot of people don't like when a lot of fans of the show have let us know and sometimes, you You know, my co-hosts will mention the same thing that they don't like when NXT is talked about as not being its own brand with its own stories and its own stars and more referenced as being developmental. But when they weren't. trying to sell it on cable for two hours with commercial breaks and everything eight years ago, they would always say like, Oh, WWE

58:03 management has their eyes on this person or this person, or, you know, the, the reason Sammy Zane wants that championship is because he's seen Seth Rollins and biggie win that championship. And now they're on the main roster and wrestling at WrestleMania. And they would openly acknowledge those things. And so now that now that it's, it's, I'm a happy NXT 2.0 viewer because even though they are going so far with it that they are putting some acts on TV that should not be there yet, especially it's especially strange after they had been hoarding people. Well, hoarding is a different issue.

58:38 They had been stashing some people away like your Cal Blooms for years. And you're just like, why? is he really not ready yet? Why aren't you putting them out there? Now they're putting everybody out there. And there are definitely some people who are sinking and not swimming. But even though I have to be critical about that on the daily cast, I still enjoy seeing the floor level that these people are coming in on, because that's why I started watching NXT to begin with. That's what invests me in wrestlers journeys from developmental to the main roster. I really respond to that. And, so because you're putting those people out there again, now, uh, honest, I say again, but it's even to a greater extent now than it

59:17 was eight years ago. Um, acknowledge it, be honest about it, use it like as a selling point, like you said, um, that, you know, these are the future stars, um, And I like that collegiate feel of the people who are honestly and openly trying to prove themselves to get to the next level.

59:36 And, you know, if USA Network has a problem with it, my stance is always network executives stay out of it. You know, let the wrestling promoters do what they think is best. They're not sabotaging the show by talking about it as developmental or collegiate. It's self-evident to everybody that NXT doesn't have Roman Reigns and won't. They weren't going to get Drew McIntyre in some draft. It is what it is. Embrace it and make the best of it.

1:00:02 Don't pretend it's not that. And I'm not saying USA would have a problem with that, but maybe WWE thinks they would if they talked about it in those terms. And they ought not. And I said this with Spike TV and TNA back in the day. Just stay out of it. Just because you loved wrestling in the late 90s doesn't mean that TNA in the mid-2000s or late 2000s should be the best of what you remember when you were in your 20s and loved wrestling. Stop it.

1:00:24 Let the people who are in charge of this day-to-day run things and make the decisions. And I sometimes think WB is rightfully or wrongfully, I don't know, but catering to the whims of what a network exec might think, thus the Jimmy Smith hire and the Adnan Virk hire, as opposed to just putting the best show up they can with the best personnel. Did you know that you can enjoy commercial-free versions of all of your favorite Wade Keller podcasts and PWTorch Daily Casts? Just go to patreon.com, search PWTorch, and subscribe to a VIP membership tier. You get a seven-day free trial, by the way, to kick the tires a bit and see if you like the service.

1:01:02 And then sync it with Spotify, and you can listen to commercial-free versions of our free shows like the Wade Keller Post Shows, the Wade Keller Podcast Flagship, our flashbacks, and also the PWTorch Daily Cast lineup. Again, all commercial-free, a nice streamlined listening experience. But with third-tier membership, you can also unlock all the VIP podcasts, including Everything with Rich and Wade, The Fix with Todd Martin that I host with Todd every week, the Wade Keller News Bulletin's post-pay-per-view roundtables, and an array of other VIP-exclusive podcasts with different hosts and different themes. Check out the lineup. Go to Patreon and search PWTorch and subscribe and sync it up with Spotify or stay within the Patreon ecosystem. Either

1:01:40 way works, go to Patreon and start your seven-day free trial. All right, Nick, any final topic from you that you want to bring up or any follow-up on that?

1:01:56 Last quick, and I'll get up. I'll get off and let you guys talk. I'm going to take advantage of Tom's presence here. I think a lot of people were somewhat shocked that EO Shirai didn't come up. so to speak, and I'd be interested in what your thoughts are. Is she NXT 2.0 for life, or are they maybe waiting for Asuka to come back and then they can pair up?

1:02:27 I've always thought she's just fabulous, and watching her fly through the air has just always been a joy, and I'd love to see her bolster the rather. Except for the top four, you know, weak women's division, if she could come up to either Raw or SmackDown. And with that, I will let you guys go. Have a great week.

1:02:51 Thank you.

1:02:51 Yeah, thanks, Nick. Yeah, it's on one hand, it's sort of unfortunate that WWE or NXT, WWE has, you know, constantly signaled to us that we have to think of, you know, the Io Shirai's and the Kairi Sane's in the Asuka mold, but that is how they continue to present them and they tie them together. So part of me hopes that they're not waiting for that because, you know, I guess just speaking personally, but I think Asuka has so many strengths on her own and, and, and obviously so does, you know, Shirai. Um, and yeah, you know, Shirai was number two on my overall list of, uh, that I never actually wrote down, but on, on my overall list of who I expected to go up in the draft, uh, and LA Knight was number one and

1:03:32 he didn't, uh, make that, uh, shorter than.

1:03:35 Expected list either.

1:03:37 Um, Um, but you know, I, it's, we're young enough. 2.0 is young enough that it is hard to say, but I am really questioning if it's even possible to be NXT for life anymore. Like, like Johnny Gargano said, and probably put on a t-shirt or something.

1:03:59 And like Tommaso Ciampa has said, because.

1:04:03 Um, they're not using that brand to, to impede another anymore. I wish they never had because that became my least favorite period of NXT overall. And another reason why I'm happy that we're back to a more fundamental version of what the show was supposed to be to begin with. But yeah, like when Tommaso Ciampa is no longer giving Braun Breaker a rub, What is Tommaso Ciampa do when Io Shirai is no longer giving Zoe Stark a rub?

1:04:41 What is Io Shirai do?

1:04:43 They they're in a way they've reverted to the rookie and pro thing from pre full sale NXT because everybody's paired off. Yes. Like, you know, in our league.

1:04:57 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

1:04:59 Um, yeah, there, there was Kyle O'Reilly was wrestling Ridge Holland, I think recently. And I was like, this is weird. There's no new wrestler.

1:05:07 In this segment.

1:05:08 What's going on? Von Wagner's gonna run in.

1:05:10 Right.

1:05:10 And he did. Um, and, uh, uh, we, I spaced on mentioning this on the podcast, but I, I talked about it in our, in our daily cast, uh, our, our Skype chat between the three of us, uh, me, Kelly and Nate, uh, that if they are reintroducing Dakota Kai tomorrow night, that could be the reason why Raquel loses her championship to Mandy Rose, as I predict. It could be Dakota Kai returning and reigniting her feud with Raquel.

1:05:40 But then I thought, wait a second, that doesn't make sense unless she's with a new recruit, because they've got to have some new blood in the feud somewhere.

1:05:50 So, yeah, where was I going?

1:05:52 I guess, you know, EO. Could stick around and continue to be the player coach as she so excelled in doing against Persia Parada after after JC Jane got pulled from the match and Persia, arguably the greenest of the green that they've put on TV in maybe NXT's history. She is she's so.

1:06:15 Lumbering out there and and and stilted.

1:06:19 All of a sudden they lost one third of their match. And it was just Tom Caster and Io Shirai leading her through it. And they pulled it off, you know, as well as they could. So maybe she sticks around and continues to do that. But but I agree that it's strange. She is not on the main roster right now because you can absolutely do circling back now. You can absolutely do that same Oscar presentation and bring her up as a killer who immediately is wrestling at that top level.

1:06:46 If you're joining us midstream, this is the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show following Raw. And it is the season premiere, the first episode. I think we got two SmackDown season premieres, by the way. The week after the draft and then the actual one last Friday, I think. But this was the only, I think, season premiere of Raw.

1:07:05 And I'm Wade Keller, and I'm joined by Tom Stout from the PWT Talks NXT program. Again, join them live tomorrow night or download the show on the PWTorch Daily Cast feed. While you're listening to us, you might as well enter PWTorch on your podcast app on your phone and click subscribe. It's free. And there will be even more great content there if you haven't done that already, including waiting for you late Tuesday night or Wednesday morning, the Halloween Havoc post show.

1:07:32 Hey, everyone.

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1:08:38 All right, Todd, we got Kyle. He's been on hold this whole time. Let's bring Kyle in. On to the show.

1:08:43 Welcome, Kyle.

1:08:44 What's on your mind about tonight's Raw?

1:08:47 Yeah, so overall, Monday Night Raw is the better show, in my opinion, because of the top names that they have here. I feel like, too, is that from watching SmackDown and now Raw is... that, at least in my opinion, that Monday Night Raw is the better show than SmackDown out of these first two, this first week of the new brands. And let's... you know, with the main event and who they have there. They have top names on this show. And it's going to be, I can't see myself hating raw now because there's a lot of names I like here. I think several get to the Becky Lynch, Bianca Belair segment. And that was really interesting because Becky said that she, she said he wanted to do people and she's done, she's done Bianca Belair. And then Bianca

1:09:37 came out just being like, and just saying that she's still the face of WWE and saying that, also said that Becky, that Bianca said that she, that Becky lost her fans.

1:09:48 It was like, whoa.

1:09:49 That was like, and then that whole beatdown that happened with the whole Kendall stick thing and I thought that entire segment, that was just a great segment and they were both, that's why they're both my favorite. They're both great because they just, where they just, they just, have great chemistry together, whether it's on the mic or the ring.

1:10:10 I just thought that entire promo was great, and I'm looking forward to their match next week for the championship. What do you think about that entire segment?

1:10:19 Yeah, we haven't gotten to that yet, and it certainly deserves some attention. We got multiple emails on the Becky Belair segment, too, which we'll get to. Tom, your thoughts on what Kyle had to say, and then parlay that into your thoughts on what they did to clearly establish Becky and Belair. They're not They're not taking their time on this. They're not putting them on separate paths. They're going right to it as next week's Raw Main Event.

1:10:45 Yes, and they've sold me on it. I don't know how many people are really expecting me to draw this comparison, but it reminded me of Ali and Mansoor from last week. I didn't expect... Well, maybe if I thought about it, I should have expected it. But especially with the way Becky opened her promo, I didn't fully expect... a return to Becky versus Bianca. And, and by the end of the segment, they really had me wanting to see the match.

1:11:13 Mansoor and Ali last week, it was not a program I was sold on, but they just went really simple with it. It was just Ali saying like, why are you out there smiling and, I want to wipe that smile off your face. And, and Mansoor goes, do you see me smiling now? And I was like, Ooh, money line. I want to see these two guys beat each other up now. So they had me and this, you know, it was obviously wordier, but they, they had, it was, it was ultimately pretty simple and straight to the point.

1:11:46 And I, I'm just very impressed with how Becky ice skating uphill every single time. is able to get the crowd to boo her or at least not get them to openly cheer her. I think a nice touch that she added to, well, probably didn't add tonight, but that she leaned on quite a bit tonight was telling the crowd what they want. They probably do want to, we probably do want to see I definitely want to see Becky elevating Rhea Ripley. A lot of people probably do want to see Becky elevating Liv Morgan, the two names that she mentioned. But she's telling them that that's what they want. And she's telling them that she's their hero.

1:12:26 And so when you're telling us that, it's like, oh, well, I don't know. By my contrarian nature, now I'm inclined to find reasons I disagree with you, even if I don't. And Bianca. I mean, I've just been so impressed with Bianca for a long time, but I've noticed recently that she's been relying a lot on one liners that have worked the first or second time. But then it just starts to sound like a song that she's repeating the lyrics to every time out. And that was not what she did tonight. She she had original material and delivered it in a believable way that Becky sold perfectly. It really seemed like she cut to something that Becky was like, oh, she figured me out. You know, you could see that

1:13:14 on on her eyes, the way she performed it. So, yeah, I was I was very sold on this.

1:13:19 I love Becky's facial expressions during that. I mean, it so helps sell what was going on, you know, with Bel Air. I'll inject an email here and then comment further. Dom from Cleveland said the segment featuring Bianca and Becky tonight really showcased how far Bianca has come as a performer. Although there were moments each wrestler seemingly struggled to keep a straight face, it held my attention throughout. And Bianca's disses sounded like she took a page out of John Cena's work shoot promo playbook. In my opinion, Bianca's greatest run is still ahead of her. Thanks, and everyone go VIP.

1:13:48 I just agree. I mean, I pulled that up here as part of the conversation because I just think Bianca's found a lane and she's in it and it's a good lane and it feels natural. She feels like a woman who's third, you know, in her early 30s. She's a grown woman. who is grounded and and relatable and not a cartoon character like you said just kind of reciting lyrics and I think the crowd is feeling a connection to her she's she I think you know when you first come up to the main roster and there's these you know legends of the women's division who took it out of the divas there it's like you know you're like oh god you know I better just do what I'm told and hope to not you know step on any toes and I think some of that was

1:14:29 going on early and I think the path that she's taken in a short amount of time to land in a really good place. I think she's found a better use of EST. She's not leaning on it too hard. When she does it, it doesn't come across as unduly arrogant. It comes across as a way to go after a heel with some rhythm and cadence in a way that shoots them down and sets the bar high for what the heel has to do to take you out. But not coming across as just a gimmick that you're leaning on too hard, you know, which is fine for Carmella, but Bianca's got to do, you know, be higher, be better than that, higher than that. And she's just likable.

1:15:11 She doesn't come across as a flat one-dimensional cardboard cutout of somebody who twirls a ponytail and says EST all the time. So just, and, you know, I think Becky wanted to be heel. I mean, you know, she said it wasn't her idea and then it was reported it was her idea, but I think Becky's going to, I'll put it this way. I think Becky's going to enjoy being a heel because of the people she can work with and elevate. And even if it's not on the cards for Liv Morgan at this time, like Becky wanted it to be at one point, I think working with Becky, Bianca is going to take Becky, excuse me, work. Bianca working with Becky is going to help Bianca get to that even at higher level because Becky is such a pro.

1:15:50 And it's just fun watching a segment. And it's weird because in wrestling used to be fun when people like really hated each other in real life, but Bianca and Becky were working together to help each other. in something that was planned but in the end felt authentic to their characters. And we didn't get that last Friday. We got something other than that with the Charlotte segment that we've been talking about all weekend. And so I want the artists and athletes on the screen to be actually working together and not trying to undercut each other or bringing counterproductive backstage bitterness and conflict onto the air. So it had a sense of dance partners out there, which I like too.

1:16:32 Yep. Picking up what you're putting down there. Yeah. Belair is is clearly at least she showed tonight that she is conscious of not killing all her stuff in one promo or, you know, she's picking her spots. And she's I've noticed that she's doing that in the ring with her braid. You know, it's not every single match where you've got to get the braid spot.

1:16:52 She's only using that for the biggest spots.

1:16:55 And that's it's going to get such a huge pop because not only is it a big spot, but we don't see it every single week.

1:17:02 And, oh, I knew I was going to forget my next point. Oh, you've brought this.

1:17:06 That's what it was.

1:17:07 You've brought this up before.

1:17:09 And I 100 percent agree that one of the almost in intangible senses that you get watching Bianca is just that with as. vaunted and established as the four horsewomen of WWE are, you've got Bianca, like you said, on a relatively short stint here or on a relatively short timeline, standing next to each one of them over the past calendar year and feeling like she belonged there and feeling like she was their equal. So I think that is, you know, that doesn't come.

1:17:45 Along every day.

1:17:46 Yeah, she has a confidence she belongs. And then, Some people have the confidence they belong and they don't. And it's kind of embarrassing. She belongs, but you know, I understand her, you know, I mean, cause she's not Rhea Ripley who's in her early twenties and still, you know, trying to figure out life and who she is in real life. Like Bianca, I kind of think kind of knows who she is at this point. She's been, she's been around long enough as an adult and it was going to be a shorter path for her. She's given kind of that, that agency and freedom to, to be something more than just, Oh, tell me what to do.

1:18:16 And I don't want to step on toes, but she had to, I, perhaps it's the maturity and good sense to not carry yourself that way at the beginning. And I know, I mean, I heard from some people in the locker room, you know, that people had their eyes on Bianca is, you know, how much of what we see in NXT is who she is. Is she going to, you know, is this push going to go to her head?

1:18:36 Is she going to work hard to get better? Or is she going to think that she's all that already? And, you know, you deliver that by having really good matches and really good promos. And, I, you know, haven't checked back on, you know, the locker room, you know, sentiment towards her at this point. But my thinking is she's won some people over with the work that she's done, including tonight. iPhone users, if you're listening to us on the Native Podcast app on your iPhone, You can unlock our commercial-free versions of our free shows by searching PWTorch in Apple Podcasts. You'll see a charcoal gray logo that says PWTorch VIP on it. Click on that. There's some free samples of VIP shows, and you can unlock the

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1:19:33 Enjoy a streamlined listening experience to our free shows and unlock all the VIP exclusives, including our post-pay-per-view roundtables, the Wade Keller news bulletins, everything with Rich and Wade, the fix that I host with Todd Martin, and a variety of other VIP exclusives. Just search PWTorch in your Apple Podcast app. Before going back to Kyle, I'll throw in Zach in Texas who adds to this. I said for months the Raw Women's Division needed Becky Lynch back at the top, and it turns out I was right. It already feels like the ship is being righted. Becky Lynch holding court in the middle of the ring was fantastic.

1:20:09 The GOAT did GOAT things on the mic, and thankfully this ridiculous heel turn hasn't damaged her very much. She's still the most overwoman on the roster. Bianca Belair more than held up her end of the back and forth, too. It was easily my favorite segment. I enjoyed Becky channeling the Sandman with a white Russian leg sweep. The eventual one-on-one match between the two should be another banger. Becky needs to go over, clean preferably, and hold that belt till WrestleMania when someone can be built up to finally dethrone her. Tom, any additional thoughts on that situation, including what Zack might have triggered? Or prompted, I guess. We can't say triggered anymore. Prompted.

1:20:45 I think if there are any of the usual pre-Survivor Series title hot shots just for the sake of that card... this belt is at risk, but I hope that is not what they do. Uh, partially because of the genuine intrigue of the match we would end up with if they don't do that, but also for Zach's reasons. Yes.

1:21:07 All right.

1:21:07 Uh, Kyle, you've, uh, listened patiently. Uh, we've run with your topic. Do you want to follow up on that or, or bring something else up?

1:21:14 Um, yeah, then the, um, I think it's the new music with, uh, Damien Priest, Carmella Keith Lee. I was like, why? Um, definitely would damn me a praise. It was like, what was the... And his whole character now is now going to be shifted more as the heel, because I guess there's no credible heel. Nate Cotter's for him to face for the United States Championship, so maybe that's probably why, but I don't know why he had to change his music.

1:21:43 And also Carmella changed her music, and he changed his music again, like... M3 in particular, that stood out to me with the shapes of music and Damian Priest's character persona. That was interesting.

1:22:00 Kyle, I think Damian Priest will... I think... I don't know if this is going to work, but I'm not against him trying something different. And I'm definitely curious for, Tom, your thoughts having seen him in his NXT run too. I just felt like kind of the smiling, cool guy who's, you know, the you know, the nightclub owner who's not going to be a jerk, but he's going to be kind of cool. And if you're, you know, and like, it just, I don't know. I mean, it just, it didn't have an edge to it. And so I think he got about as far as he was going to go and it wasn't where they wanted him to be.

1:22:34 So they're trying something different. He's got a little bit of a different look and certainly new music. He's not doing the kind of gimmicky arrow thing. I think it's worth trying to shake things up. What do you think, Tom?

1:22:46 Not doing the arrow thing is an improvement. He got better with the timing and the hand motion over time, you know, with a lot of practices one would hope he would. But it still never meant anything. It was just something to say, something to put on a T-shirt. It never had any other weight than that. So that will not be missed. But as for the music, it is unfortunate since the prior music was... It's not just that we were used to it. It was.

1:23:13 better music.

1:23:14 And now the music that they're coming out to sounds like Muzak. Um, but you know, they've just gradually been moving away from everybody that had, uh, had music, music that, what is it? They don't want to pay the rights to it anymore since they're not working with CFOs anymore. Well, you know, whatever it is, they're gradually moving away from everybody. Um, you know, or everybody's old, old themes. Uh, but yeah, Priest is somebody who, what really stood out about him on NXT to me, was his subtle facials. Whether he was heel or face, there was always something you could look at in his expression that subtly told a story.

1:23:56 And I know, especially in wrestling, you gotta play to the nosebleeds, but with film acting and with the majority of the audience watching close-ups of you on television, there is something to subtlety, which he just seems to naturally possess. And he's a much more intriguing when he's, uh, I don't know when he's relying on that. And it seems like with the new thing tonight, he was coached to make really big expressions and make sure that everybody can tell that all of a sudden you're angry because your name is Damien, your name is priest. And so we're going to do this devil inside thing. And Byron Saxon is going to say, you have a devil inside and you're going to get all angry. Um, But as I think I implied earlier with the Keith Lee thing, I

1:24:47 am even though I could totally see them just like trying it for a month and then it doesn't go anywhere. I am in favor of trying this with him because I think it just adds another layer to who he already is. And it's not a drastic change. It doesn't seem like it's going to be. It just seems like, you know, you wouldn't like him when he's angry.

1:25:08 Right.

1:25:10 You know, so so so don't make him that way.

1:25:12 And as the crowd learns that certain things set him off or maybe, you know, once he makes that facial expression, oh, you know, the his opponent done messed up and he's going to get beat up now. I think I think that's it. So I think they're just going for, you know, the badass baby face pop.

1:25:29 Is it long term trajectory heel or face? And where do you think he tops out?

1:25:36 I know that the answer to that second part of the question has changed a number of times. I have, for the most part, I have viewed him at intercontinental championship level, um, or, you know, United, you know, mid-card champion level. Um, but with the whole bad bunny thing and just how, how much they invested into that, he really seemed like a guy that they were thinking, you know what, we could pop him up to top title level if we wanted. So I think, if I'm being optimistic and I think I've given this version of the answer a couple of times before, depending on where we've been at, but I think like a John Morrison, you can put him there, but you know, he's probably.

1:26:19 Not going to win and they're not going to run with him.

1:26:20 As the champion, but you know, you can, you can do a little program or at least have him as the third or fourth guy in the triple or triple threat or four way. I think optimistically that's where he is, but right now I think still, mid-card level. And I'm going to say that this version of the character we saw tonight is a babyface act. Although, of course, it could easily switch the other way. And like I said, he proved that he could do both quite well in other brands as well, but mostly as far as what I've seen in NXT.

1:26:54 Yeah, I think with his previous pre-draft push, pre-music change and all that, there was just something that he just kept coming up a little short. It just, there was something there and there's something that wasn't there. And I think it was hard to put a finger on, but he just, everything should have worked and it just didn't quite in terms of promos, in terms of crowd pops, in terms of the matches he had. And so I think they just said, let's just, you know, it's almost change for the sake of change. You know, it's like the, your team's not playing well in hockey. Sometimes you just change the lines for this, you know, for the sake of change or, Or in basketball, you just change the starting lineup and the rotation a little, and it just

1:27:38 kind of feels like that's what they're doing with him. They're not quite sure what didn't go right, and this might be a step back, but they have high enough hopes for him. They just need to change something to see if they can find that path to him getting to that next level higher. That's what I interpret this as, not a demotion. But we've got to see if this works.

1:27:55 This is a real small sample size tonight. But it was a window into what they're doing.

1:28:01 I'm Chris Maitland.

1:28:03 I'm Justin McClelland.

1:28:04 We host Wrestling Coast to Coast, a podcast of independent wrestling.

1:28:07 Every week, Chris and I review a different show or talk about important topics from around the indie wrestling world.

1:28:13 Learn about the hot underground stars and the future main eventers before anyone else. You can reach us at TorchCoastToCoast at gmail.com and me on Blue Sky at Mind of Maitland. You can reach me at Blue Sky at Justin McClelland. Find the show on your PW Torch Daily Cast podcast feed Search PWTorch on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

1:28:34 Also, stream the latest shows on PWTorch.com. Kyle, any final thoughts from you?

1:28:45 Yeah, I mean, I don't hate it. I think it's cool. I think it's, I'm a Damon Preece fan. I like what he's doing now. I think it'd be cool with this new character. My last point is just about the whole, now that we have the new roster from Raw and SmackDown, after watching both shows, I can constantly say in my own personal opinion that Monday Night Raw to me will be the better show than SmackDown, even though they have Roman Reigns and Sasha. But Charlotte, just overall, watch it tonight.

1:29:13 Raw to me is going to be the better show for me to watch every single week throughout this next year. But that's it.

1:29:18 Thanks, Kyle.

1:29:19 Thanks, Kyle. Tom, do you have any sense of that yet? Who got the better of the deal or which show is going to end up being better? I need a few weeks to kind of see. how things shake out to kind of, I don't think it's, it's not jumping out to me the way it is to Kyle yet.

1:29:33 Yeah, I think we need to see where people slot in, but I think just looking at the draft, just with my schedule and how I live my life, Monday is still the day that's easier to watch wrestling on. So I will try to be optimistic about what Raw has, but I see that, you know, SmackDown still has Roman and SmackDown now has Shayna.

1:29:53 And I feel like.

1:29:54 There are one or two others that got drafted over there where I was like, oh man, I'm probably going to have to make more time on Friday nights now because I do want to see what they're up to. Um, so yeah, I think I, I, when I have made the time for SmackDown, I have thoroughly enjoyed it more. I mean, I watched the whole show this past Friday and I thought it was one of the best main roster shows I'd seen in quite a long time. Um, and, or, you know, weekly TV that is, um, and then watching tonight, like, Not as much. Not as much. They shuffled the deck, but it doesn't feel like a fresh start. And I feel like SmackDown got away with that a little bit more, maybe just based on the weight of the stories and

1:30:40 the investment I have in the individual wrestlers.

1:30:42 All right, up next, JB from Detroit emails. He said, did tonight feel enough like a new era or a season premiere to you? To me, it felt pretty standard. The only exception was Seth becoming the new contender to Big E, but I'd venture to say that was expected. Also, is it me or have Seth's promos really regressed recently?

1:31:01 Tonight was a lot of yelling without much nuance, in my opinion. Love the show and go VIP. So Kyle liked what he saw. JB less.

1:31:09 Sure.

1:31:09 Tom, your thoughts.

1:31:11 Yeah, I guess I'll just echo myself from earlier that I feel even though Seth is not the Seth that I grew to love as a singles heel in 2015, uh, 20, 2014, 2014. That was, um, he's, he's closer to that version of himself now than he has been as the Messiah or as the, um, the, the, the baby face who said questionable things on social media and, or made, I made, made, uh, unadvisable choices on social media, I should say. Um, so I'm, more on the Seth train now, even though it's not, you know, I'm not going to buy his t-shirt or anything. Um, but, uh, the, uh, I guess, I guess just the, the fresh start in general. Yeah. It, it, it feels like raw now has a couple of SmackDown's storylines continuing on it. And for people like us who,

1:32:10 who know that we're going to be analyzing this stuff on podcasts and we're looking at the rosters and everything. Yeah. You can probably figure out that Seth is the best choice to go for Big E even before his music hits.

1:32:22 But yeah, I don't know.

1:32:24 I'm not super down on it. It all makes sense. But it did not feel like a fresh start tonight or anything.

1:32:30 Along those lines, Ed in High Desert, California said, Hi Wade and Tom, I don't know that the season premiere of Raw was anything special or remotely got me interested in anything they did, but with the roster they have, they should have a few months of some good and hot shows. I won't hold my breath, though. The latter match consisted of Seth, who just lost to Edge, Balor, who lost to Roman, and just lost to King of the Ring. Rey's been kind of blah, and lost to Roman, and KO was not doing much, plus lost to Roman.

1:32:53 Based off what they've been doing, is this supposed to be exciting and interesting? I get what was doesn't have to be what is. However, it's hard not to feel it's for losers from SmackDown fighting. So I'll pause there and just kind of re-underline, look at this as WWE, and this is the part that I always factor into my criticism of. in my evaluation of Raw and SmackDown.

1:33:16 They got a TV contract that pays them a ton of money, and they got to come up with 52 main events a year for each show, 104 main events, and other matches, too, that fill out the two- and three-hour shows each week. And it's easy to go, well, that wasn't what I wanted, but it's like, well, what are you going to do if you're coming up with 52 a year? It's not ideal. If this was a one-hour show... And that would be different if it was a monthly special, it'd be different. But when you actually look at the parameters of, you know, what they've set their viewers up to expect and the roster depth that they have, and, you know, we can step back and reevaluate all of that and people advocate for that. But

1:34:03 that's not the mode Vince is in, you know, Vince, the USA and NBC universal and Fox bought, purchased a show that resembles what we see. And it's risky. um to radically change it so having three wrestlers who fit the description what you said ed is a feature not a flaw when you see this as a season premiere where they're just trying to give you a good 24 minute main event match that closes out the season premiere and feels high stakes and has familiar names in it but isn't putting wrestlers who actually don't have the recent losses that you cite doesn't put them in a position to not be featured or be in a match where they come up short because they're trying to protect the other wrestlers. So by definition, again, it's a feature, not

1:34:49 a flaw that they put people in there who aren't in the spot that would be reserved for, say, a longer built fatal four-way ladder match that maybe is on a pay-per-view. Tom, anything more you want to add to that or you don't have to?

1:35:02 In an attempt to, in an effort to level with the email, I will say that Balor has felt like the guy who has washed out in a top spot several times and only gets put back in top spots when we're expecting someone else, like a bunch of people got injured on NXT.

1:35:25 And so Balor becomes champion.

1:35:27 And then, you know, we're expecting John Cena to come out and challenge Reigns and Balor comes out and we're expecting Brock Lesnar to come out and challenge Roman Reigns and Balor comes out.

1:35:35 He's that guy. So very tired of that.

1:35:38 Rey doesn't feel like he belongs anywhere near a title right now, but he's also Rey Mysterio, so he gets away with it. And they gave.

1:35:45 Us a nice promo from Rey. You know, I want this and I want one more time. And it's like that's part of the defense of this is they let everyone kind of make their case and, you know, gave us a hook for each of them. So, yeah, go to KL.

1:35:58 Right.

1:35:59 Oh, and I mean, I think his his character and the way he has endeared himself to to the audience can always get him back in that situation, even just for a one off or a one month program. And we'll find something to enjoy about it and just just be happy that that he's there, even though we don't think he's going to win. But just just saying that to say that I do see where that sentiment is coming from. But the you know, what I illustrated earlier, that moreover, lines up with what you have laid out is more how I'm looking at what they did tonight.

1:36:33 You know that last segment you're just listening to and the next one that you're waiting to listen to? Those can be one second apart with a VIP membership. You can unlock our commercial-free versions of our shows. pwtorch.com slash govip tells you how to do it. That's pwtorch.com slash govip. Options exist within the Apple Podcast app using your Apple account, through Patreon, which by the way, you can sync up with Spotify, or just about any iOS or Android app.

1:36:58 With a full VIP membership, you can customize the feed for individual shows and clusters of shows and themes. Go to pwtorch.com slash govip for full details on all the options to listen commercial free. And with upper tier options, unlock our VIP exclusive podcasts that run throughout the week every week. It adds, I'm fine with RK-Bro, but Riddle and his act has run out of steam. Probably been on the downside for a few weeks already. Is it possible they could have Riddle turn on Orton? But Riddle doesn't quite become a heel, but they unleash the beast in Riddle, the devil inside. My thought was Riddle gets Orton before Orton gets him. Have it be a pretty good beating. Orton out for six to eight weeks, let

1:37:41 Riddle go from there to take on Big E.

1:37:42 What do you think?

1:37:43 I haven't thought about it that specifically, but I have thought about how obvious it is that Orton will probably turn on Riddle and that's your WrestleMania singles match between the two. So why not just for the sake of it, do what we're not expecting and have Riddle turn? I think that would be a little bit more interesting just for the sake of the swerve, I guess, in this particular case, because I agree, even though I tend to enjoy their matches more than most because of the workers involved.

1:38:13 And I have a high level of respect for what Orton does in the ring.

1:38:17 And I mean, obviously just, watch Riddle Between the Bells, and it's very impressive.

1:38:22 The act has unfortunately grown stale for me as well.

1:38:26 Yeah, I'd be intrigued by that. I just don't know if the Riddle character is presented has a beast inside. Like it would be, I mean, I'm intrigued, but like, is it believable that that same person, this sweet, innocent soul, um, is suddenly like going to outthink Randy Orton? Like I just, it might lack credibility. I'm, I'd be intrigued to see them try, but I'd say put some thought into it.

1:38:48 Make sure you've got your bases covered. All right.

1:38:52 We're a little trying to turn, and he does get the better of Orton, but then Orton recovers, and he's like, you know what? I'm proud of you, kid.

1:38:58 Totally.

1:39:00 It's like, okay, we patched that up quick.

1:39:02 Yes, you've got to be a killer. That's my succession reference. Glad to see Keith Lee getting a push. Bearcat Lee has a better ring than anything else. Don't know what that is. But could they stop with the puns? Clawing his way to Raw. Also stop with the roaring. Lee doesn't feel that far ahead of carrying Kross. Speaking of Kross, it sounds like Smith said Lee beat Kross and men are running from Kross. I'm asking, who's running? And then he also says, if someone never left, can they be still coming? They said Veer is coming to Raw. He never left. Thanks for all the great content. Go VIP.

1:39:38 You won't be disappointed, people. And you'll enjoy in-depth conversations. I agree with that on that last point. Yeah, Tom, anything you want to add to Veer, Keith Lee, Kieran Cross, Bearcat?

1:39:50 I agree with the puns, and they did the same thing with Lee. They said that he was clawing his way to Raw, and I'm pretty sure, even though he wasn't making too many appearances, I'm pretty sure that's a brand he was on already. Veer, I'm very curious. I think it's weird it's taken this long. He's okay, but he's a Pittsburgh pirate who was on a reality show in India and had a movie made about him.

1:40:11 So what the heck are they waiting on?

1:40:14 We got no calls and no emails about the Queen Zelina segment, Tom. Really?

1:40:22 Yeah.

1:40:22 Any thoughts on that?

1:40:24 Let me scroll to that giant part of my notes. This was what they used as the five minutes before the hour hype. This was the one thing that other than the fact that they're in Houston that Byron talked about was that we were going to get a royal proclamation from Queen Zelina. Like, are they are they opening the show with this? And then it went on at like 835 or something. I'm surprised that they're going with two of these gimmicks at once, especially so soon after.

1:40:53 we had a very long King Corbin run followed by a sort of King Shinsuke run. And it's just, I mean, I guess this is just your general point about it as well, Wade, as much as I want to be on the side of King Xavier because of the story they told about him getting to that point and silliness is already sort of his thing, so it's believable that he would just lean into this.

1:41:18 It's just weird that.

1:41:21 after all this time, unless there's something I'm forgetting, King of the Ring and now Queen's Crown has never had a precedent of giving someone actual power or actual influence. And so the fact that these people win and then want to parade around and say every other line in a I thought she was going to do a Leah from queen of the damned just because, you know, I follow her on Instagram and that's like half of what she posts is her in that cosplay. But, uh, you know, it, it, you know, it's even got queen in the name queen of the damned, but, uh, yeah, it's just sort of, even the, even with her being a heel and using this to get heel heat, it's just sort of embarrassing that, uh, that it's just somebody out there playing make-believe because they

1:42:14 won a tournament that, that has a Royal name.

1:42:19 Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. They've decided to give her this. It feels like, you know, an upper mid card commitment to her. Um, you know, she has a hook.

1:42:31 Yeah.

1:42:32 Yeah.

1:42:33 I mean, it's, if I'm Selena, I'm, if I'm Selena, I feel better now than I did a month ago. Go ahead, Tom.

1:42:39 Oh, for sure. No, I was just going to say that of the, um, Of course, I would have loved to see Crown Stomp and Shayna. But I think that when you realistically look at the bracket, Zelina is the one who could do the most theoretically with the gimmick.

1:42:53 So I like that she won it.

1:42:55 Tonight's proclamation about what kind of queen she's going to be, though, is just, oh boy.

1:43:02 Yes, I agree.

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1:43:42 All right, Tom, you can close out the show. We've gone past an hour and a half here with just a little pitch about how much you recommend or don't recommend Halloween Havoc. And, you know, maybe two key things or three key things to look forward to and look for on that show.

1:43:59 OK, thanks.

1:44:00 Yeah, no, I I.

1:44:03 Sometimes feel like I'm on an island in liking NXT 2.0, and don't get me wrong, there's a lot of the show that you're just sort of gritting your teeth through, but I personally find that so interesting, because like I said earlier, we're looking at the entry level, and that's why I started watching NXT.

1:44:22 I guess entry level.

1:44:23 Is not the totally accurate way to phrase how NXT used to be, but even in the case of someone like Persia Parada, she was in Shimmer. This isn't her entry level, but that's still the way she comes across. And I am fascinated by that kind of thing. And I love watching the growth. I think that NXT was such a gift in that now we can like do our own armchair scouting, uh, and, and, and NXT, uh, the brand got away from that for a long enough time that I, I was, um, I know this sounds like I'm making it up, but I was wishing for something very similar. It like looks, I even had like a purple color scheme in mind when I was thinking about what a refresh for NXT could be like. So in that way, NXT 2.0 for all of its warts

1:45:12 really feels like what I've been waiting for the brand to go back to. And Braun Breaker, silly though the name is, they have done a very good job of signaling that Uh, like I was talking about the, the signaling earlier with the, the big E presentation, they have done a very good job of signaling that they really believe in this guy. It's sort of like in a meta sense, you can see the presentation of him and how they're positioning him. And it's just, you get the feeling watching the show. I, I should pay attention to this guy because it feels like they really want him to go places. And so far he's living up to that role and that is engaging to watch. And, uh, and, and I guess I'll just wrap the other, um, The

1:45:56 other two points, the other two reasons to watch into one, because you have two toxic attraction matches. And even though Mandy Rose was on tough enough in 2015 and nothing ever really clicked for her along the way. And, you know, she's managed to stay active. employed this long uh i don't think she is someone based on what she's showing on nxt now i don't think she's someone that should be looked at as just like oh she went back to nxt and she's not worth giving a chance to because in all the years that we've watched her uh you know nothing has worked so why is it going to work now because from where i'm sitting um she is really living up to the spot that they are giving her as what i have been calling the face

1:46:39 of nxt um and i think that uh jc and gg The rest of Toxic Attraction should just be thrilled to be hitched to that ride. And they are all in title matches tomorrow night. And I strongly believe that Mandy Rose is going to be the next NXT Women's Champion. So tune in, watch it, and then give us a call on the daily cast line to let us know.

1:47:01 What you thought. I saw a picture on Twitter of four NBA players who are all cool guys in their mid-20s showing up to the building. And You know, and they don't have to wear like the suits anymore. Like that edict is gone. Like they can dress how they want. And they had every like color that's in the NXT logo on their clothes, like shirt, pants, shoes. And I'm still just sort of amused that so many people thought those were Nickelodeon colors. Like I tune into Nickelodeon and they're bright and shiny and primary. And it's like, no, this is like, you know, I mean, I'm, I'm not like, I don't dress like that. I don't even, you know, I'm the most generic dresser there is, but I like, I saw the NXT colors and I heard the theme

1:47:48 song and I'm like, you know what? There's probably something to be learned from this. This isn't, you know, Kevin Dunn saying we need to go pastel to get the kids. Like this came across as something that somebody who is a graphic designer and an artist and knows what's right around the corner or is already out there that, you know, you and I just flying under our radar, uh, is out there. Like, and, and so I saw those NBA players are just like, Oh, wow. OK, you know, I think, you know, whether, you know, whether it resonates with the Black T-shirts represent 97.8% of all T-shirt sales in pro wrestling.

1:48:23 So maybe they're trying and they're going to just go over people's, you know, they're not going to hit their market. But I like that they tried something different with that. And from the second I heard the song and saw the logo and then the redesign of the arena, the artist rendering of it, I'm like, this is different. And I was ready. for something different. I was ready for something different from NXT. I'm with you, Tom, on this more than I think most people.

1:48:47 100% agreed. I really liked seeing that schematic as well, because I thought it was high time that the arena get a refresh. And now they have them coming out from the correct side, too. I guess, well, no, I guess they did in the sort of like grunge pit version of, of the performance center as well. But yeah, for so long, it was like, it's mini Ron mini SmackDown, but the hard cams on the wrong side. Um, you know, when, when we're trying to be like, oh, well, you know, Finn Balor's there, he's just learning the camera placements.

1:49:14 It's like, really?

1:49:15 I don't know. And I've even said that a lot to try to, to try to justify it. But anyway, yes, I really optimistic when I saw that. And, and for my part, you know, I didn't see the, the basketball players, but there, there have been at least two different social media apps where you like post pictures and do filters and whatnot that And there are filters that are that exact same color scheme, even in sort of like a splash motif. So I see that and I'm like, oh, okay, this is around. Yeah.

1:49:40 I mean, certainly what Triple H did to the logo is not current. So just about anything was going to be a little more current and cool.

1:49:50 And they had sort of stomped, in my opinion, and I already said that going up against AEW resulted in what I felt was the worst stretch of NXT. But I feel like when they did that, they kind of tore down everything that was that version of NXT. And so the best thing you could do is a complete refresh.

1:50:12 I'm with you.

1:50:13 Awesome.

1:50:13 Thanks, Tom. Look forward to your post-show tomorrow. And I appreciate you co-hosting today. Good conversation.

1:50:19 Thanks so much. Glad to be back on, Wade.

1:50:20 Absolutely. Thanks to our emailers, our callers, and, of course, all the listeners. And we'll talk to you next time. Tomorrow on the flagship, in fact, with Jason Powell. So send those questions in. Wade Keller podcast at PWTorch.com. Your time is valuable. Go VIP and listen to our shows commercial-free.

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