5 YRS AGO SMACKDOWN POST-SHOW: Heydorn & Barbati talk Charlotte's reset, Trick or Treat Street Fight, Heyman/Reigns vs. Lesnar progression

0:00 You hear us talk about ways to unlock VIP membership through your Apple account and the Apple Podcast app and also through Patreon or Spotify. To unlock a full VIP membership with full access to archives, an ad-free website, and customizable podcast feeds that are compatible with the Apple Podcast app and many iOS and Android apps, along with streaming ability right from our ad-free mobile site, go to pwtorch.com slash govip. That's PWTorch.com slash GoVIP. That'll give you all the details on everything you're missing out on by not being a VIP member. The whole array of VIP exclusive podcasts like the Wade Keller News Bulletins, our post pay-per-view roundtables, the fix that I host with Todd Martin, everything with

0:43 Rich and Wade, and an array of other shows with different hosts and different themes, along with unlocking our archives dating back nearly four decades. Nearly 2,000 Pro Wrestling Torch weekly newsletters. Over two decades of podcasts on demand dating back to the mid-2000s, starting with pay-per-view roundtables, hundreds of fascinating retro radio shows, including many that I hosted in the 1990s, and an ad-free website, exclusive content on that website only for VIP members, written and audio, and a lightning-fast, smooth, ad-free VIP mobile site for all of our content. Don't miss out on all the benefits. Treat yourself to a VIP membership. pwtorch.com slash govip.

1:22 Go all the way.

1:23 Go VIP.

1:24 Pwtorch.com slash govip.

1:35 Now, PW Torch brings you the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show.

1:44 On today's Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show, for Thursday, October 29th, 2026, we jump back five years to the SmackDown Post Show. that originally live-streamed on October 29th, 2021. Zack Catorn guest-hosted for me and was joined by PW Torch's Nick Barbatti. They talked with live callers and answered email questions. Discussion points included Charlotte Flair's promo to start the show with her reset. Also, Becky Lynch and Charlotte Flair and their dynamic. The elevation of Shotzi. Shotzi's potential as a heel and her potential as a top star on SmackDown. The pluses and minuses of Xavier Woods as king of Trick or treat, street fight silliness, Paul Heyman's ability to hold down and further Reigns and Lesnar on

2:25 his own, plus SmackDown vs. Rampage ratings banter and more. So let's get to it over an hour and a half of analysis from five years ago this week.

2:34 So, Nick, I got to say here, of all the things that I would have predicted that we would start this show off with today, the one that we're going to start the show off today with was not high on my list of guesses.

2:46 And I think that speaks to certainly an overall weak show, maybe due.

2:50 To the fact that the show was on FS1 tonight.

2:53 But.

2:54 Let's start with Shotzi.

2:57 You know, she was significantly, I would say, for better or worse, significantly elevated tonight, regardless of, you know, I think feelings on whether she should have turned heel or not. You know, she's around and now seemingly in a feud with Sasha Banks wrestling Charlotte. This is, you know, not it's a significantly higher level of a spot that she had a week ago. We'll get to Sasha and Charlotte here in a minute. But what do you think of what they did tonight with Shotzi?

3:28 Well, I thought you were going to lead in with the Golden Girls theme song reference in the Kofi Kingston Xavier Woods segment. I'm really disappointed that this is the direction you're taking us.

3:38 We got to redo. Let's redo that open. Redo the open.

3:41 Well, Zach, thank you for being a friend. And let me say, I think you're absolutely dead on. I mean, you know, there wasn't a whole lot overall happening on this show, but the first quarter of the show was a happening.

3:54 It was a It was probably the.

3:56 Most major elevation of a woman in the women's division that we've seen in a really long time. Not someone who'd been defined down, then reintroduced. This felt like a proper push, a proper elevation, so to speak.

4:11 And I thought all things considered, Shotzi did a really nice job with the work that was given to her.

4:17 And it felt like it was going to lead to something important for both her and for Sasha Banks moving forward today. that's a very, very good thing for a division that has felt weak. It has felt stale and it has felt like it was.

4:30 Like a rudderless ship for quite a bit of time.

4:32 This felt fresh. And I think that's a word that we haven't used in a very long time.

4:37 Yeah, I agree. I mean, I.

4:39 I think just the– you get sometimes an A for effort. We'll have to see how it goes, right? But just the decision to say, OK, you know what? We're going to elevate somebody. We're going to try to put somebody in a new position, in a new place and see what happens. And I think of all people– You know, Shotzi, I think, can certainly use a refresh. I mean, I don't know how much they lean into the tank thing now as a heal. I think that's kind of a one-note, kind of a cutesy thing that's not going to be upper card.

5:13 But who knows? Maybe the tone around it shifts now that she's a heel.

5:17 But I think from a match perspective tonight with Charlotte, I thought she hung in there. There was certainly some sloppiness here and there. And I think Shotzi, moving forward, until she's able to smooth out some of the stuff that she does or do it a little more crisper, just don't do it. Because I think she has other parts of her in-ring game that she can lean on until she develops that stuff.

5:39 But.

5:40 So I kind of give her like, you know, CC plus for the in ring against Charlotte. But I thought the, you know, her heel mannerisms against Sasha Banks were very effective. I thought she kind of had a fierce look on her face and she kind of changed the way.

5:53 She did that.

5:54 The yell and the howl to to kind of be more of a quote unquote bad guy. I thought like the physicality of the turn, you know, her just. laying into Sasha with some kicks and punches and stuff.

6:06 I thought that worked.

6:08 And if you would have told me before the show, hey, Shotzi's going to turn heel, I would have said, I'm not sure about that.

6:14 But based on what we.

6:15 Saw tonight, I don't know that it's a completely silly.

6:19 Road for them to go down. I think she showed something.

6:23 Yeah, I think the scowl that you're referencing was very noticeable. You know, it was like almost like, you know, to a much lesser degree, but it was reminiscent of when Trish Stratus turned heel at WrestleMania on Chris Jericho and literally her physical mannerisms just all of a sudden changed the character, you know, within a split second. You're like, wow, that's, incredible that they were able to just turn the page so quickly. But, you know, Zach, in all of this, I actually don't think this is the main story.

6:48 The main story for me was the fact that the show opened.

6:53 With a return, if you would, Charlotte Flair, which was a statement in its own right. It was I mean, it was a it was a clear, you know, thumbing the nose towards this past week of rumor and innuendo and whatnot.

7:06 And, you know, Charlotte Flair being.

7:08 The key and the the She really is someone who held the first 30 minutes of a two hour show together.

7:15 You know, all things considered, that's a pretty incredible feat.

7:18 For someone that allegedly has all of this, you know, question marks surrounding them.

7:23 So there's that. And I think that's the major story of the show.

7:26 But, you know, when you reference about Shotzi's performance, yeah, I mean, those things were there. You also got to think and factor in there. At some point, nerves have to be at play.

7:35 This was the biggest night of her career so far.

7:38 And yes, she's had big nights, NXT, then debuting on the main roster, all those things.

7:43 But this was her moment. This was where things needed to count.

7:47 Can grade the the ring work yeah sure c b minus for me okay that that would all be fine i didn't imagine that i was willing to be over by the way but all of that was forgotten by the ending which i think was you know an a a level work yeah yep fair.

8:03 Enough what uh so let's dig into charlotte a little bit because that's certainly you know like you said.

8:09 Up there topic I it's funny.

8:13 Because I think that there is a level of of what's happening with Charlotte that I don't that I don't necessarily like look down upon or frown at. Like sometimes this business is about not being a team player. And I think a lot of times if you look at the history of wrestling, you know, you've got guys and now women in top positions that are there now. Because they're stars and they're stars because.

8:40 They act like it.

8:41 Right.

8:42 And and I think sometimes it's it's it's good to see that these days. I think there's a lot of people that are in WWE.

8:49 They're just, you know, happy, happy to be there, you know, and that's it. And I don't and I think Charlotte was even like that for a while. I think Sasha Banks was like that for a while. But it kind of being in the business can can harden you up a bit. And sometimes I think it's healthy to have that that chip on your shoulder and a little bit of ego there. to you so that you can continue to be presented as the top star. Now you can't like, obviously you have to, in the end, do what you're told.

9:15 And in the end, you have to be able to work with others.

9:19 And, and, and, and all of that.

9:21 But I don't, I don't fault Charlotte completely outright for, you know, throwing the weight around a little bit and acting like a star. And tonight, you know, after all the madness of the week, boy, she held that audience and they reacted to her in a big way. And it's really hard to argue with that reaction, even if it means some unprofessional behavior backstage that, yes, she should clean up. But sometimes on the performance side of it, it can help you.

9:48 Well, you know, Zach, I fancy myself as the Charlotte Flair of PW Tours. So I know something about conflict with some of my people. So, you know, I I, I give you credit for sitting on the call with me, but here's a couple of things. First of all, um, never forget Vince McMahon is the person who fell in love with Shawn Michaels and, uh, you know, really, you know, really, it resonated for him that, that rebel spirit and Charlotte Flair has some of that to her, you know, it's not, it's, It's not just that he loves people who are difficult.

10:17 It's people who can back up that difficult attitude with real talent and, you know, just that fighting spirit that reminds him of himself.

10:25 She is reminiscent of that right now. But here's another thing.

10:28 You know, Zach, I don't know if you've listened to Nick and Tom's Intercontinental Adventure or if any of the listeners tonight have. I would love to get this dialogue going. But we talk extensively about, you know, for me, and I know this might not be always the most popular opinion amongst wrestling fans. I think Becky Lynch brought a lot of this onto herself. If all this rumor and stuff and backstage reporting is accurate, let's just say. You know, I've always said I thought that the Becky Lynch character, you know, rose up and it was given.

11:00 A lot of credit for social.

11:01 Media influence being the backbone of that rise.

11:05 Well, I thought she really critically.

11:07 Damaged a lot of the women around her in that rise and not in a way that was able allowed them to be able to recover from.

11:16 In fact.

11:18 Years to be able to recover from.

11:20 The damage that Becky Lynch did to her in terms of hitting, I thought, way too below the belt for her own personal benefit.

11:27 So I do believe, I've always thought that was there.

11:30 And I've talked this at length on PW Torch for the past year and a half about that.

11:34 And I also just think at some point– and again, before we get to the callers, I'll just wrap this up quickly. At some point, let's look at Charlotte Flair.

11:42 She's a woman who's been mocked mercilessly about her looks, about surgeries and whatnot, and that has been taking place in all forms. of wrestling coverage you know her father had been brought back misused um grossly on on screen she came back after extended break there was a lot of momentum on her back and then she's fighting in clown like storylines.

12:04 You know i mean at some point someone needs to.

12:06 Put their foot down and you know what if that's what it takes to get the attention to be able to be presented as the star she was tonight then may she drop a few more belts along the way Well said.

12:16 And I think to your point about Becky, yeah, that's a real interesting debate that you guys have had. And I think she has a lot of the similar characteristics, I think, that Charlotte has. It's just not necessarily framed correctly. the way that it was with, with Charlotte this week. Again, there's, you have to be able to be, you know, moldable and have a good head on your shoulders. But I certainly think that Becky has that same kind of, you know, charisma attitude that, Hey, I'm the best treat me like, you know, and, and she used it when she was, when she was hot. We'll get to, I'm sure, more of this discussion when we open up calls here in a minute.

12:53 But let's pause. Let's take a second. Set the table.

12:55 This is the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show covering the October 29th, 2021 edition of WWE SmackDown. I'm PW Torch Assistant Editor Zach Haydorn filling in for Wade tonight. He will be on the VIP side of things and the Wade Keller Hotline running down the show with all the... details and analysis that you normally get from him here it'll be there pwtorch.com slash go vip for details on on how to be a vip member and and to to listen to that and a host of other podcasts including nick's which we'll get into um a little bit later pwtorch.com slash go vip and.

13:32 Speaking of the other voice you hear tonight is that of nick.

13:35 Barbatty from pwtorch.com and nick and tom's intercontinental adventure a very popular popular pw torch vip exclusive podcast so nick uh we'll get into your show a little bit later but welcome to the show tonight.

13:48 Man oh thanks zach you know this felt a little bit like a setup mr wade keller looking for uh us to be back in the arena together but it's excellent to be on the call with you we had a blast last time and i'm really looking forward to talking to the cars it's been a couple months since i've been been on the show but uh glad to be back glad to be uh talking.

14:07 About smackdown.

14:10 Yep. 347-215-8558 is our number here tonight. 347-215-8558 if you want to get in on the conversation. Press 1 if you're in the queue and want to get on. Also, if you're not interested in chatting with us, you can send us an email. WadeKillerPodcast at gmail.com. That's wadekellerpodcast at gmail.com.

14:30 We already have a couple of emails in there that we'll get to a little bit later. But, Nick, with all that said, and if you're ready to rock, we can go ahead and.

14:38 Take the first call here.

14:40 Let's go for it.

14:41 All right, 615, we'll start off with you. 615, go ahead and state your name and where you're calling from tonight.

14:49 Zach and Nick, Sean, BSC, Murfreesboro, Tennessee. Nick, I missed you, man. Zach, I will miss you. How are you guys doing tonight?

14:58 Doing good, man. Doing good, Sean. Great to hear from you.

15:01 Always glad to see your number here on the switchboard.

15:05 What did you think of SmackDown tonight?

15:09 Well, first I want to say, Nick, you and Tom, I will definitely second what you've been saying. Your guys' show is great. Last week, I really enjoyed listening to you guys. on WWE and your actual thoughts on it and good, concise thoughts. And I always enjoy it. It's always good stuff, man, for sure. I won't rat on you too bad tonight.

15:33 Oh, I appreciate that. Thank you very much, Sean.

15:35 Whoa, whoa, whoa.

15:36 Real quick, Nick, how much did you Venmo Sean before you hopped on the air tonight?

15:41 Listen, we don't discuss proprietary information on phone calls like this.

15:47 Whatever.

15:48 Whatever.

15:51 Well said, Sean, and I second what you say about the show. If you're not a VIP member and you can't check out that show, you're missing out.

15:59 So pwtorch.com slash go VIP.

16:05 Hey, everyone. Longtime PW Torch columnist Sean Radican here to let you know I've revamped and renewed the Radican Worldwide Podcast for 2026. a weekly VIP exclusive. Every week, I break down four or five of the biggest trending topics in pro wrestling. I also present my analysis, providing insight that helps you understand the story better or see it another way than maybe is the controversial take out there.

16:30 Then I bring on a special guest for the second half of the podcast. Sometimes it's a wrestler or someone else who works in the business. Other times it's a guest analyst who brings their specialized point of view on a particular key topic in the news. Recent guests have included Bronson Reed from WWE and PCO. One of my areas of specialty is the Japan wrestling scene, so I often cover a big topic from Japan with PW Torch's own Alan Farrell, Kelly Wells, and Chris Lansdell. I don't just cover the news. I don't just riff on the news or give a standard hot take. I'll bring my decades of studying this industry and talking one-on-one with dozens of wrestling promoters to each week's show so you understand

17:08 not just what's happening, but the context of why. Get ahead of the news. Get ahead of the pack with Ratican Worldwide only at PWTorch VIP.

17:22 Bashan, back to you. Smackdown.

17:26 Yeah, so, I mean, the show, kind of like you guys have said, I mean, it was what it was. It was a Halloween show. It was on FS1. Not going to get a lot of people watching it. You know, I get that. But, no, going back to the main stuff you guys were talking about, to really because there wasn't much else really to sink your teeth into big time um I know I mean like you like you guys were saying about Becky you know I still love Becky more as a you know what she's done for the business but I but you're you're right about Becky too she's arrogant you know because she thinks she's the best and I get that and but Charlotte I think it's just tougher to deal with with the people backstage Becky I think just you know enjoys being with the

18:03 people backstage more than Charlotte does and that's not good or bad it just kind of is what it is But I like that Charlotte used that in the promo, saying, you know, people in the back when they win a title, oh, they cry and they feel so great. I win because I'm just that damn good, and that's just kind of what I do. But at the same time, I think Brandon put in the report that I'm with him. She always talks about I'm a 12-time champion. I just wish they wouldn't go to that. I mean, I know they have to go to that because you have to say, hey, that's my accolade. That's what I win. But at the same time, you always think about it as, You've lost that many times to win the title back. You know, it's like I get the one side, but then you

18:44 have to look at it on the other side. But I loved her promo. It was very good. As far as Shotzi turning heel, that part of it. I'm only worried because they don't have a lot of baby faces on SmackDown other than Sasha now, who is obviously a baby face. But after her, it's like, I guess, you know, it's like Natalya and maybe there's a couple, you know, lower cards that don't get a lot of chance to shine.

19:08 There's just not a lot of baby faces to go after a lot of the heels. You know, now you have Charlotte with Shotzi and Shayna's still like right now. So it's like, that's what I kind of worry about is from that. What do you guys think about it? yeah they do lack a little bit of as far as shot they.

19:25 They do lack um yeah i i got you now sean sorry you broke up there a little bit um but to answer your question they do they do lack some baby face depth i think i think you're seeing you know a slow burn on naomi you know rising up the ranks right now too as as as a baby face i think that's coming i think you know i believe and Nick, correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I believe Tegan is on.

19:52 Is she is she still on SmackDown or does she get moved to Raw?

19:55 I thought she was on Raw now.

19:56 I thought they were Raw, I think.

19:58 Okay, so she's not there.

19:59 So, I mean, yeah, like, Nick, you look at kind of the depth chart there, and you have Sasha Banks, you know, at the top, I guess, who's positioned as a babyface now, kind of out of nowhere. You've got Naomi coming up. You've got– but, I mean, nobody of significance really after that. I mean, what do you make of that move given the other pieces on the chessboard?

20:21 Well, I think you can't put too much thought into how WWE views the women's roster at any given moment because it's always been about what's happening in the premier world championship program and then everything else kind of– you can watch one week and then everything you thought you knew goes out the window the next week.

20:40 I mean look no further than– Carmela where.

20:44 She had this blood feud with Sasha Banks and suddenly was backing her up later in the same year. I don't think– I mean when I say that, so what does that mean? Would you really be surprised if Shayna Baszler is suddenly a babyface in two months?

20:58 No. This is– they'll figure it out. I think what they– what.

21:01 Has been a priority that I think what we saw tonight on the show was– that they really wanted to make Sasha Banks a proper babyface.

21:08 And you needed to continue to have the turns around her to allow that to take place. Because, yes, she was moving in that direction, but there was never a crystal clear.

21:19 Moment that that actually took place. And if she's just the more likable of two heels, that's not good enough for the premier championship for the women's division.

21:28 So there's that. And then also, I think they truly wanted to give Shotzi a chance. And in order to do that, you know, yes, they put her in with Charlotte tonight.

21:37 But I think the best chance at her having a feud is with Sasha Banks in.

21:42 The immediacy, especially since. Charlotte is going to.

21:45 Be focused on Becky heading into Survivor Series. So they're planning on a month-by-month basis right now.

21:51 This isn't too far out. This isn't so overly thought. I really think that's just where we're at at this point.

21:58 Yeah, I think you're probably right about that without question. I mean, you're seeing– Some seeds being planted for for Naomi. So I think that's something that they could easily pivot to. Sasha Banks is there. And then, I mean, it's a.

22:12 Two hour show, you know, with Roman Reigns.

22:14 So for a while, you know, that's probably like a decent enough, you know, number of of. unfortunately you know just because the minutes on the show like you're probably okay with that for a little bit a little bit but you know things can get stale pretty fast so yeah i mean they'll address it when they address it i think you're right about that but um you know for now it's okay and i think i like i like that you can look at the roster and see other things coming down like the pipe you can see naomi building some momentum and maybe this feud with With Sonya Deville and Shayna can elevate her and get her hot enough to be a challenger to Charlotte. I like that you can kind of see that, but only seeing

22:54 one is like, okay, maybe there's a little bit of an issue here.

22:57 But I think you look past into.

23:01 Previous eras of SmackDown and Raw and WWE shows, sometimes you can't even see any. And so the fact that there is some other talent that are on the rise, like it's almost, it's a low bar to clear, but it's, it's, it's better than, than other moments in time.

23:18 Sean, back to you.

23:22 Yeah.

23:22 And that's where I kind of want to go with it in the sense of, I mean, I'm totally fine with Shotzi getting a push. Like I'm okay with them, like that but at the same time like you know I definitely this is a chance for Shotzi to show us what she has because I don't really care for her I didn't care definitely for the tank gimmick I don't like that at all I don't like I don't like a lot of her mannerisms. I don't like a lot of the way she carries. I mean, she's got charisma. Like, she's fun and she's outgoing. And I like the pizzazz that she has. But I just need to see a lot more from her. And I hope with this heel turn, this heel run, we'll be able to see more out of that and give that some more legs. Because I

24:07 just haven't liked what she's done so far. Even in NXT, I just honestly didn't. didn't really care for her that much and it wasn't like her herself it's just the way she's you know carrying across the gimmick and so I'm interested to see where they go with that I mean her and Sasha you know hopefully Sasha gets the best out of everyone and I think that'll help Shotzi too yeah yeah but going back to what you said about Naomi what do you think about that do you think just Sasha will because I mean Sasha's just so you know damn good in the ring that I think her and Shotzi can have really good matches will they be A matches maybe not but definitely B plus for sure I think.

24:44 Yeah, definitely.

24:44 You can't be across the ring from anybody better than Sasha Banks and Charlotte tonight. Again, it's a huge level of competition up in terms of like hey can Shotzi hang but also you're in there with somebody that can can really carry you to something good so I think I think that's really important so uh Nick jump in and answer that question but I'm also just curious as to what I mean in your eyes I mean what's the ceiling for for Shotzi as as a heel and just as a as a star in in the company I mean seeing that she was elevated tonight I think it's it's I'm gonna take your temperature on kind of where you think she can she can go Well, OK, well, a couple of things.

25:24 First of all, I want to go back to the previous conversation about, you know, who else is there in the waiting to be able to help with even just some of these like week by week matches.

25:33 I mean, still remember, Tony Storm is on the roster.

25:36 Then there's the vignettes for Xia Li that is, you know, coming through.

25:40 I mean, there are baby faces that they could filter.

25:42 In and not exactly be, you know, I don't think we're going to see Tony Storm with the championship anytime soon. So but again, she's a presence who hasn't been on the screen. We're seeing Aaliyah introduced as well. But let's talk Shotzi for a minute. Prior to this week, I would have said no shot, never going to happen. It's almost like everybody gets their shot at being the favorite new toy, and then it gets put back on the shelf. Well, it didn't even feel like she even got much of a shot when she was elevated to the main roster to even be that favorite toy.

26:15 Something has shifted.

26:17 So when we talk about Sasha Banks being the first person Sasha Banks.

26:21 Is the right first person to wait for.

26:23 She's got the credibility and she's got the standing where to go up against her still feels important, especially coming out of what she just did in terms of, you know, continuing that being at the main event for an extended period of time. Beyond that, it's going to ultimately come down to Shotzi how successful she is because one thing I think is in danger of with her and Sasha Banks is really messy matches. Like if something goes really off the rails, I don't think Sasha Banks is going to be the one that's ultimately.

26:56 Really punished for it.

26:57 You know, because Sasha Banks is still the established star in the ring. So now it's like, we got to shake off the nerves. We got to get in there and have great matches and, and just be able to see, okay, this heel work, how invested do you get into it and how much of it can you pull off when it's promo time? So I think it's still to be seen about what the ceiling is here.

27:19 Yeah, no, that's a, that's a, I mean, it's going to be really interesting to watch her attempt attempt to do this because I'm, Like you, like tonight, I think was a good outing as far as the heel turn her and went, but I never looked at her before and said, okay, you know, she's going to be someone that's going to be in the ring seriously with Sasha Banks and Charlotte before. And, and now, you know, it looks like she's going to, so it'll be, it'll be a fun journey to, to, to look at.

27:45 Your time is valuable. Go VIP and listen to our shows commercial free, a nice streamlined listening experience. PW torch.com slash go VIP.com. For full details on a commercial-free listening experience and with a full VIP membership, you can create custom feeds for individual shows or groups of shows by theme and also unlock nearly four decades of archives and access our ad-free website with VIP-exclusive content, pwtorch.com slash govip.

28:12 Your time is valuable, and that's one of the reasons we offer VIP membership, pwtorch.com slash govip.

28:22 Sean, go ahead with any other comments on the show.

28:28 Yeah, I guess just two more quick things. The first was going back to, you know, what you're talking about as far as Naomi kind of building her up. I just, seeing her, Sonya doing the stuff, like, to me, the stuff with the ref was hurt and the ref couldn't, like... WWE has how many refs? I mean, they have a bazillion.

28:46 You can have so many referees referee that match, and the one that got hurt by Brock Lesnar, oh, he can't be there, so it's going to be me. And it's like, you know, yeah, it's fine. He was tough, whatever. And just they keep beating down Naomi, which to me, again, it just makes.

29:03 I don't know. I just don't know.

29:05 Yeah, I'm assuming eventually Naomi's going to beat Sonya in the end or beat Shayna in the... But if you have Naomi... I don't know where they're actually going. Do they just have Naomi beat? Cause I don't, I think they're just beating Naomi down so much right now that, you know, we can get behind her because she is again, charismatic and we do like her, but this is kind of getting ridiculous. What do you think about it?

29:28 Nick, go ahead.

29:29 We don't like Naomi. I don't, I'm not a fan.

29:32 I think there's no, no, I think, I mean, you look at that and it's like, I'm rooting on.

29:37 The beat down week in week out. I mean, come on.

29:40 On like you're backstage and you're coming to me begging for a match I mean yeah it's out that door by the trash cans you know don't.

29:48 Be so cruel to Naomi come on Nick don't be so cruel to Naomi come on.

29:52 Yeah I guess you know I mean her acting's doing that for her so no I this is not you know No, she's not on my Christmas card list.

30:02 Ouch. I'm higher on Naomi than I think you are. That doesn't surprise me.

30:08 My worry is not so much the character and the acting. I think she's come around a little bit on that. To me, it's the in-ring. I think we need to see a Naomi that if she's going to play at the top of the card with Charlotte regularly or even close to, even flirt, with the main event or the championship.

30:32 Um, I think that in ring has to come around.

30:36 Faster in terms of it feeling like a fight and not like a, a performance or a dance that, I mean, that is the thing that I think holds her back the most. Like she's got these moves and she's clearly athletic, but it's, it's like, okay, I'm going to step here and then I'm going to step there and then I'm going to twist and then I'm going to hit this move and, um, Maybe it'll look good.

30:56 Maybe it won't. And I think you, you have to get that nailed down.

30:59 That works kind of maybe in the middle of the card or the bottom of the, of the card in the women's division or the men's division. I think Ricochet dealt with a lot of the same, same issues and that it's fancy and it's athletic, but it's doesn't feel less necessarily like a fight and to wrestle for the, the main titles, you have to bring that along. So I, I think the character part, she's kind of got, I think she's got an attitude. I think she's got some charisma, but you know, I think her in rings got a got a turn if she's going to really be a player.

31:30 And not just a one and done against against Charlotte, Nick.

31:33 Yeah, I don't know.

31:34 I mean, I just disagree with you about the character. I think the character is the attitude. And it's like you always.

31:39 Have an attitude, like an attitude. It's just me. It's not but it's not.

31:43 Like a tough attitude. It's not an interesting attitude. It's like a whiny, annoying attitude. So, no, I don't see that.

31:50 I think you're right about the performance in the ring, though.

31:52 You know, there's just certain things that I mean, to me, like the the the finishing move with like the what is it, the rear view where she hits her with the butt and stuff.

31:59 I mean, it's just it's just stupid.

32:01 I mean, it's it's really I mean, there's I wish I could be more eloquent about it.

32:05 But there's just to me, it's it's a step down.

32:09 It's almost like. I, she's a wrestler who is caught in between eras of the divas wrestling and the women's, you know, evolution wrestling and doesn't quite meet the level of in-ring work that I think is expected at the highest level.

32:25 That's what my eyes tell me. I'm not a wrestler. I'm not a wrestling expert, but you know, as a.

32:29 Viewer that has just always stuck out to me, like this feels.

32:33 Of the Tori Wilson era personally.

32:37 Fair enough.

32:38 Sean, back to you. Anything else for us tonight, man?

32:42 Yeah uh and i will say again like they said they were at the mohegan sun like just say you're in wilkes-barre pennsylvania like i mean i know wade had always talked about that before it happened and we didn't have crowds and we're in the thunderdome but like just tell people you know they're always ashamed to tell people if they're not in philadelphia or if you're in pennsylvania but you're not in philadelphia or not in pittsburgh they don't they don't want to say where they It's okay.

33:14 You're in a small town. You're on FS1. You're not getting a lot of, even if you're on Fox, I mean, regardless, you should still do it.

33:19 But I had to say that.

33:21 And then the last quick thing was I still thought Heyman was great tonight with the interview. And she asked what Brock Lesnar would think of getting fined. And he's like, Brock Lesnar would do this.

33:31 And he's like.

33:33 Did I say that? I'm sorry. No, I don't know what he would say. I didn't talk to him. I don't know what you're talking about. So I wanted to hear what you guys thought about that. Leave it there. Let guys get on and talk about what they thought about the show. Nick, love you, man. You guys are great. Zach, you're the best, dude. I always appreciate you guys taking my call very much.

33:51 Thanks for making this, Sean. Have a wonderful weekend. Good to talk to you, as always. Yeah, Nick, I loved that segment. I thought that was really good.

34:00 You know, my.

34:01 why I've liked.

34:02 The story so much so far is just the, the nuance that Heyman.

34:07 And Brock and Roman bring, bring to the table.

34:10 You know, it's not all like so many times WWE just, they can beat you over the head with the story.

34:15 Feel this way. Bang, bang, bang. Well, repeatedly over and over.

34:19 But with this story and with Heyman, uh, and those two guys, there's, there's so much to watch.

34:25 There's facial expressions and mannerisms and okay, wow.

34:29 You know, Heyman's really going off on what Lester would do. He's talking as if he is Brock's advocate. And then, you know, he stops and takes steps backwards and walks it, you know, verbally walks it back. So, you know, it was a small chapter, you know, in the overall story, but I don't think you have to have grandiose big chapters week after week after week. And I thought this was really good for, for the small chapter that it was.

34:52 Right, exactly.

34:53 I mean, this is still Halloween weekend on FS1. I mean, this is a lot of competing factors this time. And it's a Roman Reigns-less show, you know, which in many ways is one of the top stories of the night was, you know, that he, the biggest, the nexus of which all is revolved around was not on the show. So for this, you know, a couple of things about that. Yeah, this stretch of, I would say from the Adam Pearce, like, Zoom meeting from hell going where he's announcing his fine to then the, you know, the segment with Paul Heyman.

35:25 It was the best stretch of the entire show.

35:27 It was it was the most real like newsworthy item for the long term, if there was.

35:34 Anything on the show. But I thought a couple of things.

35:37 I thought the the fine was appropriately big enough to be inappropriate. And I think that felt that felt like, OK, this would be something that if I was Brock Lesnar, I would be infuriated by.

35:48 And then you begin questioning is.

35:52 Adam Pearce a heel like what has he been compromised? Like, I think it was enough to like have questions be able to come up where you want there to be question marks.

36:01 And then Paul Heyman.

36:03 I mean, this is, I think, still career best work by him, which is a major compliment considering the great work he's done.

36:10 Throughout his career. But this storyline.

36:12 Between Roman Reigns and Brock Lesnar, I mean, it's the nuances of it are just brilliant.

36:17 The patience that is behind. shown with it is wonderful.

36:21 And the other part about it is, you know, there's a real risk with Brock Lesnar being a babyface who, due to his deal and how limited his dates are, could really come across as not.

36:33 A babyface here.

36:34 But the work that's being done is protecting that because it's firmly establishing the who's who and the why's why. And Paul Heyman is, again, the linchpin of that entire dynamic.

36:46 And he plays it.

36:48 He plays it perfectly. So, yeah, good segment for as minor as it was. It was probably filmed in an earlier time or whatever. But, you know, all things considered, I think it was it was a.

36:59 Fine advancement given the circumstances of the show.

37:02 Yeah, I agree.

37:03 And it's so, I think Heyman hitting these kind of doubles and home runs out there, you know, week in and week out with how he's playing this story, you know.

37:14 He.

37:16 Almost plays Brock's role for him, you know, in Brock's absence, you know, he's able to balance that and react to a Lesnar that's not there while selling the Roman story at the same time. And And I think that saves face for Lesnar in terms of him not not being around.

37:33 It's like he he's there, but not really.

37:35 And I think that that Heyman's really carrying a lot of the weight of this, like you said, and it's it's been really successful.

37:42 Let's keep it going with calls.

37:44 802.

37:44 You are up 802. Go ahead and state your name and where you're calling from tonight.

37:49 My brother from another mother.

37:53 Yes!

37:54 That's my guy. Are you kidding me? Zach, you can sign off now.

37:58 We got this one.

37:59 See you guys.

38:00 See you guys.

38:02 Nick, I have missed you.

38:03 He sure does.

38:05 Oh, you're one of those. God, where's my mute button?

38:13 How you doing, Nick? It's been a while. Hope all is well, and you're surviving New Jersey okay and everything?

38:21 Well, it's a rainy night here.

38:22 I was in the penalty box for two months, but they've let me out, and here we are.

38:26 I wanted to touch base on a couple things on the women. One is I'm a fan of Becky Lynch. I think she does a great job. I think her wrestling is good. But the one thing is, I think she gets too much credit for her gimmick. If Nia Jax hadn't punched her in the nose and busted her nose open so that she could bleed while standing in the crowd... I don't think she gets as big as she did. Maybe she does. I mean, maybe there's other stuff that she can do. And then she works it with, what's her face? The crazy little person. God, what's her name?

39:16 Miranda Rousey. And works up to it. But that iconic picture of her standing there in her blue shirt with her blood coming down her face made her. her the man and granted she rolled into it and she you know she was able or someone was able to see oh this is this is money but um you know that's That was such an iconic moment and made her.

39:48 And it did. It made her.

39:51 It did. It definitely did.

39:53 I'm Chris Maitland.

39:56 I'm Justin McClellan.

39:57 We host Wrestling Coast to Coast, a podcast of independent wrestling.

40:00 Every week, Chris and I review a different show or talk about important topics from around the indie wrestling world.

40:06 Learn about the hot underground stars and the future main eventers before anyone else. You can reach us at torchcoasttocoast at gmail.com And me on Blue Sky at Mind of Maitland.

40:16 You can reach me at Blue Sky at Justin McClelland.

40:19 Find the show on your PWTorch Daily Cast podcast feed. Search PWTorch on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

40:27 Also, stream the latest shows on PWTorch.com. I think like.

40:36 You know sometimes though that that does just just happen and i'm not disagreeing with you that did that did make her but i don't know that necessarily you can fault her for that that moment like if austin doesn't doesn't yeah no i know but it's it's it's an interesting thing to unpack because you don't know where she would go if austin doesn't you know believe the way he does with brett in that i you know in the wrestlemania match what you know what happens to him it's like that iconic moment that hey what happens if that doesn't happen you can you know butterfly effect that thing There are a lot of things in wrestling.

41:08 Go ahead, Nick.

41:08 Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.

41:10 Yeah.

41:11 Oh, which Nick? Go ahead.

41:13 Oh, you've got to determine which Nick you're talking about.

41:16 Oh, yes.

41:16 Well, I'm not talking about Barbatti. Yeah, just you.

41:19 Oh, okay. My other women's point, and this is fantasy booking completely, and it could take a month. is that Naomi keeps getting beat down in distance. Sonia keeps just... And she just gets torn down. And she crawls to her husband and to Roman and says, you know, head of the table, and she comes out in all black with no glow. And I know Wade's talked about this.

41:57 I'd love to see women in the... factions with men i think you know it's now it she could fail at that too because she may not be able to do brutal you know maybe she can only do dance move stuff but i think that could add another fun edge to to the to the bloodline.

42:23 Nick what do you nick barbatty what do you what do you think about that would that change your perception of naomi.

42:29 Um, yeah. So it's like the Connie Corleone, uh, type approach, which was, you know, in Godfather trilogy, Connie comes crawling back at the end of Godfather two and says, Godfather, you know, I've wronged you. I, I want to tell you, I'm fully committed to you.

42:44 She starts wearing heads. It's all black.

42:46 And then she is lady Macbeth in Godfather three. Um, I don't think Naomi has has it in her to pull it off.

42:52 I really don't. You know, I have said in the past that I thought.

42:55 Sonya Deville would have initially been the right woman for the faction. And then I've even said recently, I think Charlotte is the right woman for the faction, even though she doesn't share a literal bloodline with these people, which neither does Paul Heyman, by the way. You know, I think when you talk about bloodline, you talk about legacy in wrestling.

43:12 And I think that that's really what it is.

43:14 But I just you know, if Naomi could pull it off, you know, God bless her.

43:19 I think you're right.

43:20 I mean, listen, that is a more natural fit, but I don't really, I don't really see that. Nick, I want to go back because I wasn't included in the conversation about the Becky Lynch thing, but I really, no, I mean, that is a dig, but like, I, I really want to like undo the unpacking on this one.

43:36 Because I think you're right. You know, you talk about that scene about where she's in the crowd bleeding. I mean, that is, that's a moment. It's a moment that.

43:44 Like, All of us know exactly the screen, that shot that we're all thinking of at the exact same moment.

43:51 You know, it's like there's very few things.

43:53 Think about all of the content we as viewers take in and that we can zero in on one frame of one second and be like, wow, that stuck out. That's not my problem with that key. I thought she she maximized that moment.

44:07 You know, I thought things like that. That was a beautiful thing.

44:11 When I'm talking about what she was emboldened to do afterwards, you know.

44:15 So here's the thing.

44:16 You can have great moments, but you can't cut down when other people are trying to do the same for them and damage them and then not have repercussions.

44:25 Here's an example. For me as a watcher.

44:28 I thought, and I still say this, that that Survivor Series match in 2018 between Charlotte Flair and Ronda Rousey at the end, that was a moment.

44:39 For Charlotte Flair. Totally. I thought it was, it was incredible.

44:43 I thought it was, I still think it for my money, it was my favorite women's match I've ever seen. And I thought it was the most interesting, the most visceral women's match ever.

44:51 You have this, the crowd was like so ready.

44:54 To pass over on Charlotte because they were so hungry for Becky.

44:58 You know, she totally, you know.

45:00 Turned that narrative by the end of that night. And then Becky's like tweets afterwards or whatever, say, you know, like like basically undercutting everything and saying, well, Charlotte was just copying me.

45:13 Like there's there's storyline.

45:15 Stuff, but then there's also like just backbiting stuff that is just really doing long term damage to other colleagues of yours.

45:25 To me, that is not only just what has happened.

45:27 It is what has bled through on the screen and has really negatively impacted the perception of.

45:33 The wrestlers to the audience. And I'm sure in.

45:37 Furthering down the line, their pocketbooks. I, you know, I, I struggle with it. I think that you've seen it, you know, along the way. And I actually thought in Tom and I have discussed this, Nick, I'm sure you've heard this where, you know, I think Becky's been checked a little when she's been on, when she's been a guest commentator, you know, she has tried going a little deep and a little like sharp on people. And then, and then by the end of the match, you can tell someone has said, you need to reverse course a little, you have to still put over the person opposite you and, And I don't think she's done that.

46:10 I really, really don't.

46:13 Yeah, no, I, I, I agree with a little, with a lot of what you're saying. Um, my enjoyment of her on the screen is just, that's what it, it's just, you know, it's, it's, it's really, it's what's really weird is it's one of those things where if WWE wasn't so gimmicks were, uh, heavy, uh, then I could just sit back and enjoy Becky Lynch in the ring and attitude and such as that. But I agree totally with you.

46:48 I think on commentary, she can come across a little snarky and snipey and detrimental to the team, if you will. And then, you know, it's the curse of our current world we're living in, which is stupid Twitter. I mean, I. Thank God you-know-who, Mr. Orange Man, isn't on Twitter anymore. No, I mean, it's just so toxic. I happened to get drawn down a YouTube rabbit hole the other day, and suddenly all this trash that's getting thrown on YouTube, when I go to it, just because I clicked on one thing about Lawrence Krauss talking about religion and cosmology, and now I'm getting, you know, it's just, and I think Becky plays into it, and it's that generation. I'm 64 years old. I mean, Facebook, what do you do with Facebook?

47:57 I don't know, but I mean, it's become such an integral part I'm sorry.

48:03 I'm ranting.

48:04 No, no, no. Keep going.

48:05 Keep going.

48:08 No, it's just it's become such an integral part of these people. They can't just say, OK, I'm going to go on the television. I'm going to do my thing. I'll post a couple of fun things and show here's a picture of my baby. And but don't get on there like her and Rhonda would just go at it. And it would be like. And I wouldn't hear anything about it. And then suddenly people are talking about it on the podcast. It's like, oh, well, Rhonda said that Becky is a this. And then Rhonda picked a picture of a guy's arm in the arm bar, which is the stupidest arm bar on the face of the planet, by the way. You know, with a fist. I mean, it just gets so mind-numbing. And I know, Nick, you're not a huge AEW watcher, but it is to a

48:55 certain extent. Part of what I do enjoy about AEW and also ROH, which I was doing the hits and misses for, is to a certain extent in some ways, and not always, because AEW has got some really weird stuff on it, it's a little cleaner from a wrestling standpoint. I grew up watching... you know, Vince's dad's promotion on the Spanish channel, Channel 47, from Lyndon Newark, you know.

49:28 Wow.

49:28 And, you know.

49:30 No, because the commentary, everything was in English except the commercials. It was really funny. But, you know, Chief J. Strongbow and then Bruno Sammartino would come out and squash some guy. And then Ivan Putski would come out, you know. And now it's just become so meta. And, you know, as I said, I don't know if you watched AWS Wednesday.

49:52 Cody just went off the rails. with all the meta stuff, and it turns me off big time.

50:00 Yeah, I get that.

50:02 I do too, and a lot of that, I mean, looking back, I mean, there's a couple things I think that I remember. Like one being, you know, Becky had a pretty big groundswell of support, right? And I think, like, there's a connection that she'll forever have with the audience because of that, even if she tries.

50:22 To work heel.

50:23 And I think Charlotte has gotten the raw end of the deal in terms of you know, obviously being framed by the company as, hey, this is our top women's star. And there was, I think, a dichotomy there between both of those, whereas Becky is up there because fans demanded it. Charlotte's up there at the top because she's really, really, really good and a top star and a premier performer, but has the kind of the corporate engine behind her.

50:55 And like I I think sometimes unfairly that drags people's perception of Charlotte down because Charlotte is very talented, you know, and. you know, I don't, there isn't a Becky Lynch if she doesn't have Charlotte Flair to play off of, you know, we have to, you know, keep that, keep that all in mind. You're only as good as your, your, your dance partner.

51:13 But Nick, I'm with you.

51:15 The, a lot of that feud took place, you know, on social, on social media and, and a lot like that people were talking about that more so than, you know, Oh, Hey, they all were putting cop cars.

51:25 You know, you know, on the go home show.

51:27 Right.

51:27 It was the tweets and the videos and, You don't want to live in that space. And I don't want to get too much into kind of reliving WrestleMania 35 because we're here to talk SmackDown. But it's a fair point tonight because you're kind of seeing Charlotte try to establish herself firmly and definitively at the top of that SmackDown show, Nick.

51:49 Did you know that you can enjoy commercial-free versions of all of your favorite Wade Keller podcasts and PWTorch Daily Casts? Just go to patreon.com, search PWTorch, and subscribe to a VIP membership tier. You get a seven-day free trial, by the way, to kick the tires a bit and see if you like the service. And then sync it with Spotify, and you can listen to commercial-free versions of our free shows like the Wade Keller Post Shows, the Wade Keller Podcast Flagship, our flashbacks, and also the PWTorch Daily Cast lineup. Again, all commercial-free, a nice streamlined listening experience. But with third-tier membership, you can also unlock all the VIP podcasts, including Everything with Rich and Wade, The Fix with Todd Martin that

52:27 I host with Todd every week, the Wade Keller News Bulletin's post-pay-per-view roundtables, and an array of other VIP-exclusive podcasts with different hosts and different themes. Check out the lineup. Go to Patreon and search PWTorch and subscribe and sync it up with Spotify or stay within the Patreon ecosystem.

52:45 Either way works, go to Patreon and start your seven-day free trial.

52:55 Yeah, well, I think, you know, you're right, Zach.

52:57 I mean, we don't want to go back in the past, but we're still in it. Like this is this is all led to this awkward.

53:03 Moment that we're in. And, you know, you talk about.

53:06 Our my my brother, Nick, talking about the meta element of it, you know, but like it's bleeding through on the screen that there's something off. You know, and like, you know, WWE would be smart to be playing into these rumors and whatnot.

53:21 And who knows, much of this might have been gassed up to make further intrigue happen.

53:26 But I do think, you know, I'm not one for ignoring what's right in front of my face. And you can tell when there's an issue and when there's not. And to me, there appears to be an issue. And today it felt like a make good. It felt like a make good on Charlotte Flair to give her Ample time. I felt like it was a a statement in itself that we are confident in this person.

53:48 This is our person. And we got her back. And I really felt that way. I felt like it was, you know, you don't give someone that much screen time.

53:58 Now, I also thought it was also a statement maker to say, I heard you about the short women's matches complaints. I think that was dealt with by having that long extended opening match.

54:09 But I think, you know, a lot of the they've.

54:11 Invested a lot in Charlotte to be the person that they're they're circling SmackDown around because they're not going to do that with Sasha Banks. At this point, I think we've seen that Sasha Banks is just not the singular leader. lead of any brand there's a there's a um issue that i think um for whatever reason they don't they don't really do that so um yeah i think that that's all i got for this one yeah no good.

54:35 Stuff no i said last last thing on last thing on on uh on charlie is i think she is dealing a little bit with the yankees syndrome is that she catches a lot of grief because she probably is the best woman's wrestler out there right now. And just like everyone hated the 78 and 77 Yankees because Reggie Jackson was Reggie Jackson. I mean, you know, and the Yankees were the Yankees. And everybody, I'm a New Yorker, so, you know, I can say this. Everybody hated them. I mean, except unless you lived in New York and possibly New Jersey, you Everybody hated the Yankees. I mean, even New Yorkers rooted for the Mets instead of the Yankees. I think Charlotte's fighting that battle. And it's the same thing. Everyone

55:29 hates Tom Brady. He's great, but you just hate him because he is so great. Last point, and then I'll let you guys go, besides giving a shout-out to my boy, Sean, is. Someone needs to tell the writers that Game of Thrones is so yesterday.

55:53 So true.

55:56 That bending the knee, the first of his name and the hand is just way passe. Season 8 sucked and nobody cares anymore. Yeah.

56:10 Yeah.

56:11 Oh, man.

56:11 I'm going to I feel like I'm going to get going on this because I couldn't agree more. And it's not just because of the the, you know, the tired Game of Thrones references. It's just enough with the king stuff. Like you can't I just don't see a world where you can present this the same gimmick Queen's Crown as a heel act on on Raw. with Zelina Vega and then flip it to SmackDown and try to make it work on a babyface character when they ran it down for a year plus when Corbin was in the gimmick and he was doing the same nonsense, but... as a quote-unquote heel. This thing does not work for me.

56:55 Nick Barbatti.

56:56 I mean, I think they just have to knock it off. I'm rolling my eyes constantly as they do this and seeing Kofi look up at Xavier as he's about to get knighted in this most ridiculous angle of the night and across weeks of television, and that's saying something considering the fact that on AEW they use proton packs to finish a match.

57:19 So I am not... I'm not on board with this.

57:22 I think it's just a silly use of the tournament and something that it was never intended to be. And on top of that, you heard it by presenting it as a heel act on your other show that you're trying to get people to.

57:35 Watch on a regular basis. Deep breath. Nick Barbati, it's all yours.

57:39 It's leading to something important. I think it's leading to the breakup of the new day.

57:43 And I think that you've got to be patient and it's going to get there and it's going to count. And I don't think that we're going to be in for a clownish cartoonish king.

57:51 Gimmick that's going to last the next day.

57:57 Doubling down the past two weeks is so overt that we're not going to have it for very long. And I think that wherever the heel turn takes place, I think it's going to come. I think it's going to come sooner rather than later. I think you, you can almost feel the beats going on a little long where you're like, is.

58:17 Kofi going to grab that scepter and do something right now? Like, you know, those moments that they are a little bit, you know, labored and.

58:24 You just feel like, okay something might break here and i think that it's going to lead to a moment where it.

58:31 Breaks i really really do.

58:33 So who turns on who in your center you.

58:36 Think woods was going to hit him with the scepter tonight yeah yeah what did you say mac i i thought woods was gonna haul off and hit him with the scepter tonight i i said oh here it comes he And then he just knitted them and he tapped them on the head.

58:52 Okay.

58:53 Whatever. Listen, I'm going to let you guys go. Thank you so much. Nick, say hi to Tom for me.

59:00 No.

59:00 You've got to get me.

59:02 On for a guest appearance. We can totally freak Tom out.

59:06 Oh, it doesn't take much, Nick. But if you're willing to be up at 8 a.m.

59:10 A.m.

59:10 With me and him, it's, you know, like people understand. Oh, absolutely. The bickering is real.

59:17 Like I see that face in the morning and it's like, I'm telling you, it ain't.

59:21 A face that sings happy birthday to you. It ain't. It's just, yeah.

59:27 Oh, my goodness.

59:28 I'll see. I'll see. I'll DM you my phone number, and we can try and work it out.

59:33 Perfect.

59:33 All right. Thank you so much.

59:35 There you go. Hey, thanks for the call, Nick.

59:36 Appreciate it.

59:37 You guys have a good night. Zach, you too. Thanks for taking my call.

59:40 Appreciate it, man. Thanks for making it.

59:42 Yeah, Nick.

59:45 I'm curious because, I mean, I hope you're right. I mean, I really hope you're right. If it leads somewhere, I'm willing to go back to the show.

59:52 Well, you know, it remains to be seen. It remains to be seen.

59:54 But who?

59:55 Who turns on who in your eyes?

59:57 Kofi turns.

59:59 Kofi on Xavier? All right.

1:00:01 Yep.

1:00:01 I'm writing it down. I just feel like– October 29th. Yeah, go ahead.

1:00:05 Write it down. I just think– I mean, listen. Could it be, you know, Xavier? Yeah, I guess. I mean, I think someone's getting turned.

1:00:14 And I just feel.

1:00:17 Like, I don't know, there's just, I don't know.

1:00:19 I feel like Xavier Kofi is like someone that you can't even imagine turning heel. which is why I think he's the right person to do it. You know, I mean, he's been around longer.

1:00:30 He's entering later stages. He's already had the world championship.

1:00:34 Xavier seems like someone who people really want to have, like, you know, really get around and have his moment to shine in.

1:00:41 A positive baby face kind of way.

1:00:43 I don't know.

1:00:44 I would just go with Kofi personally.

1:00:45 But if you turn Kofi heel, you still have Xavier parading around as this king, though, as this like baby face king.

1:00:54 No, you don't have to. You don't have to. Not if he is. He says, you know what?

1:01:01 I'm done clowning around and throws the crown down to the ground, throws the scepter and says, I'm ready to fight. You know, that's how that's how you do it.

1:01:10 I hope you're right. I hope you're right, my friend.

1:01:12 Hey, everyone.

1:01:14 Greg Parks here. You've probably heard me hosting Wrestling Night in America after pay-per-views and also co-hosting the Tuesday flagship with Wade Keller. I also host a VIP exclusive podcast every week called Greg Parks Out Loud. In this podcast, I delve into a single topic for around 20 minutes, perfect length for one of your daily commutes or while walking the dog. A couple of my recent episodes included a look at TNA as they moved to AMC and WWE and AEW injuries for the year 2025. You can listen to VIP podcasts with a VIP membership on many platforms, including on Patreon, Spotify, the Apple Podcasts native app on iPhone and CarPlay, just about every popular iOS and Android podcast app out there, and even stream right from the

1:01:51 ad-free PWTorch VIP website. Full details on VIP membership at pwtorch.com slash govip. As an added bonus, VIP membership means you won't hear this commercial again, or any commercials, as commercial breaks are skipped right over on the VIP podcast feed in addition to all the commercial-free VIP podcasts.

1:02:08 Check it out.

1:02:09 We'd love for you to join our community and unlock access to all our VIP-exclusive content.

1:02:17 All right, 816, you've been waiting a long time, and then 443 after that. 816, you are up.

1:02:22 Where are you calling from tonight, and what do you think of SmackDown? And your name, too.

1:02:26 Jeez. Yeah, I'm Greg. I'm calling from Kansas City. I've called in over time, but this is the first time I've called in in a bit for any shows. The show is fine. Mainly, just listening to the conversation just makes me happy. add things and bring them on to the uh add into what has been discussed and uh so far i've liked the conversation i gotta say that uh shotzi it's like she's not my cup of tea but i'm glad somebody else is getting an opportunity um it's you know and i but the and i have some feelings on them one of the things is by the way uh um it's nice to talk to you guys i nick uh i enjoy listening to you it's nice to talk with you both of you so thank you um it's great i mean i just like with

1:03:12 With her, it's... I'm glad somebody's getting an opportunity here. I think that, honestly, my observation was that more was done to, like, elevate Shotzi in three minutes than was done for the former Ruby Wright in four.

1:03:26 Years, I think.

1:03:28 It's like... I mean, that was a lot of investment in, like, a three-minute post-match segment there in addition to the match. And, you know, my question always is with WWE, what is going to be the follow-up to it? I mean, is she just going to lose one match to Sasha Banks and then just go on and... where she was or will there be.

1:03:44 Follow-up to it. So I thought that was optimistic.

1:03:46 I also liked that I don't know where it's going. Carrillo and Angel Garza being used.

1:03:52 In an interesting way.

1:03:53 I did not like the way Mustafa Ali was used. I'm not seeing much... much uh promise in in that in terms of like the the prospects of it and so um yeah hey greg let me greg finally i hey.

1:04:07 Greg let me stop you right there because i want to i'm glad you brought up the ali stuff because i had it flagged um to to make sure that we we talked about.

1:04:15 Um nick Are they go like where are they going with that? I mean, I'm not.

1:04:20 Overly intrigued to see kind of like are they going the route of like, OK, your last name is Ali and they're.

1:04:27 Going to, you know, the heel foreigner route.

1:04:31 I mean, I just hope that they're not playing that card again.

1:04:35 Well, I don't know.

1:04:35 I mean if you watch that segment and turned your volume off, you'd think Mustafa Ali was.

1:04:40 The baby face.

1:04:40 I mean how do you say that Drew McIntyre is the baby face when he's towering over this heel who is doing flips around him and getting– flying.

1:04:53 Across the room?

1:04:54 I mean, this is hardly the way to further build up Drew McIntyre, who I understand we're hitting pause on because you don't want him in meaningless feuds, but you also don't want to.

1:05:03 Waste the big feuds yet because you're just not in his lane right now.

1:05:07 He's not ready for it, given the other stories that they're telling.

1:05:11 But, I mean, to me, I left going, well, he's a babyface. I mean, he's a babyface. He is a babyface. I mean, that's just... where it is. So in order to fight.

1:05:22 That, yeah, I mean, it is scary that now we're, are we going to head down this, you know, like, you know, referencing him as the evil foreigner heel and all that kind of stuff.

1:05:32 But I, you know, I don't know. I really, I, it's hard to say because it just seems so jarring.

1:05:43 Do is to have him be the open challenger to someone of Drew McIntyre stature. And if they really just had a blind spot to it or working with a limited roster for the night or whatever the circumstance was, they have to be more mindful of those moments. You know, that did the crowd reacted quite nicely to Drew McIntyre in the arena.

1:06:04 That's great.

1:06:05 As viewers at home, though, the difference was stark. And that is just something that in the long.

1:06:11 Term is what turned people off on Drew over the course of the year 2020. And I think they just have to be mindful of it because history can and will likely repeat itself if they don't change up his character in a way that makes it more likable and more digestible for the viewer.

1:06:30 Man, I couldn't agree more with that. I think you're exactly on point. And because Ali is a babyface. I'd never have bought him, even when he was on Raw, as a heel. He's such a natural babyface. And when you look at stuff that WWE even likes to emphasize, like social media presence, I mean, the guy is just a stand-up dude, a really nice guy with a babyface moveset, and you got him swimming completely upstream and then getting decimated by your, you know, six foot, whatever. you know, baby face monster in Drew McIntyre. So yeah, I couldn't agree more with that. I really hope that WWE doesn't lean into the evil foreigner thing.

1:07:14 It's way, way overplayed.

1:07:17 And it's not something that I think Ali is going to be able to, to pull off very well, just because it's so inauthentic, you know, to him. So yeah, I hope they don't go down, down, down that road, Greg, back to you. Sorry to cut you off. Keep going with your, some of your other topics, but that was a good one.

1:07:32 I'm glad you brought it up.

1:07:33 No, no, no.

1:07:35 No, no, no.

1:07:36 That's okay.

1:07:36 It's perfectly fine. I'm glad that you– I'm glad you interjected with that.

1:07:40 I'm glad I was able to bring more to the discussion.

1:07:42 My final point on the whole Shotzi thing is that Sasha is a good person to work with because everybody– people talked about she's going to– she'll– just knowing her mentality, she'll do her damn– she'll do the most– she'll do as much as she can.

1:07:55 To help elevate Shotzi.

1:07:58 Well, Shotzi is not my cup of tea. She's definitely a capable performer, so. So that match could be– that match or series of matches could be very good. And once again, it's all about the follow-up, and that's where I have trouble trusting WWE in terms of the follow-up. But it's nice to get somebody new outside of like the top five or six women in the company actually in a pretty prominent position in a way that I think was very effective if it's followed up on and if she does her end of.

1:08:27 The deal, so to speak.

1:08:29 And then a couple other– my last point on the show will be, um, that the, I know Naomi was interesting. The conversation earlier on Naomi, she's similar to me. Like I kind of would might put her in like the camp of like a Cesaro or an Apollo maybe, or an Ember moon would be a good comparison. All the athleticism in the world. I don't think she's quite as good in ring as any of them are, but all the athleticism in the world, there's just always been something that's just like, uh, I think has not clicked with her.

1:08:57 And she's been there for a long time and I like her and I respect her as a performer and a person, but there's just something not quite clicking there, and I agree with Nick from Brattleboro on that. My last point was that this FF1 show this week, I guess maybe after the the events of a couple of weeks ago where, of.

1:09:13 Course, AEW got.

1:09:15 The much-touted, much-promoted victory in the 18-49 demo of SmackDown. This show could not have been more opposite than the one two weeks ago. It's like they didn't even try with this show. I mean, when you've got King Xavier and Sir Kofi in the main event of the show, I mean, it's like nothing against those guys, but, I mean, the– this is not a main event act and it's headlining the show. It's like, it's WWE, this is like, we're not even going to try this. We're going to put this show out and we're going to move on to next week.

1:09:43 If, if you were treating this show as like a, I mean, I guess it is an episodic television show or they Michael Cole will certainly tell you that. But, you know, if it's a, you know, a series that you're watching, you know, week to week on whatever favorite channel of yours.

1:09:57 That you have.

1:09:58 This is certainly a filler episode, Nick. And they yeah, they they use a different strategy pulled, you know, pulled.

1:10:06 Totally out and and.

1:10:07 No Roman Reigns, no big storyline advancement really at all. So, I mean, honestly, I don't really fault them for that. There's a lot of competition tonight. You've got the World Series. You've got Halloween weekend. Not every show is going to be a burner of a show, and I think that's okay. Yeah, the trick or street fight had to go as long as it did. No, but there's a middle ground there.

1:10:31 But I don't fault WWE for keeping Reigns off the show. You don't have to have your top stars on every single show, and I think most of the time it's better that you don't to keep people fresh.

1:10:44 Yeah, I think in general, first of all, I think it was a serviceable show, all things considered. There was no winning this night and even this weekend if there's a delayed showing on Fox. I mean this is a dead weekend for America. You're not getting any good, positive, real viewing. A couple weeks ago, yeah, that was a show worth fighting back on when WWE whooped AEW's ass in the raid. So I'm not even like I don't even care about this stuff, but it's so fake to act like whatever I'm going to stop. But anyway, you know, it was a serviceable show. Let's talk about that street fight for a minute, though. The issue with the street fight for me was it wasn't just, you know, the stupid seasonal street fight, as I would say in my

1:11:30 hits and misses the triple S fight. The issue is it was actually damaging to two acts that were actually being embraced by the audience.

1:11:39 You know, like for all things that.

1:11:41 Are annoying about them, the Boogs Nakamura act actually has been surprisingly embraced by live crowds and the audiences.

1:11:48 And then even Corbin and, you know, Madcap, I mean, it's, it's like worked. And then you put them in a moment where they jumped the shark.

1:11:56 And this is that moment where it's like, Oh, this is just bad. And yeah, This might just be the beginning of the end for both of these. I like the Humberto Carrillo and Angel Garza team. I think that that's hopefully the start of a push for them and something that, you know, is on the horizon.

1:12:15 And I know that wasn't the match or whatever, but, or it was the match, yeah.

1:12:19 But in general, you know, the segment show, that was a portion of the show that just wasn't good. I said to Zach when he answered the phone when we were first logging on, I said, that second half of SmackDown, like, it.

1:12:31 Felt like it went on for two weeks. It really did as a viewer. And, And he said, yeah, nothing even happened. So it's true.

1:12:40 iPhone users, if you're listening to us on the Native Podcast app on your iPhone, You can unlock our commercial-free versions of our free shows by searching PWTorch in Apple Podcasts. You'll see a charcoal gray logo that says PWTorch VIP on it. Click on that. There's some free samples of VIP shows, and you can unlock the entire VIP lineup, which includes VIP exclusives plus commercial-free versions of the free shows by searching PWTorch in Apple Podcasts and clicking on the PWTorch VIP logo. and then activate your three-day free trial.

1:13:10 And after that, you can become a VIP member using your Apple account. It's that easy. Enjoy a streamlined listening experience to our free shows and unlock all the VIP exclusives, including our post-pay-per-view roundtables, the Wade Keller news bulletins, everything with Rich and Wade, the fix that I host with Todd Martin, and a variety of other VIP exclusives. Just search PWTorch in your Apple Podcast app.

1:13:35 No, it is, and I was not a fan of that match. I thought it went too long and dragged. The other thing I don't like about it is, and I covered, when I first started working for The Torch, I covered 205 Live, and they did a similar match on a similar night. It was Halloween night, and it was like the Halloween street fight, and it's... It's a small thing, but it's like at some point WWE is going to want to book a street fight that's going to actually matter, and it's going to really matter, and they're going to want it to be violent and meaningful to cap off a feud of some kind. And these things with the pumpkins and the skeletons and Cole and McAfee kind of yucking it up on commentary, having a

1:14:17 ball with it, I just think it takes– it's the wrong tone you want on a serious– on a serious match.

1:14:24 I think AEW had the same issue, you know, on, on, uh, on Wednesday night.

1:14:28 And I commented on it in the, in a column that I wrote for, for PW torch.com. It's just not, you know, if you want to do a silly little Halloween thing, do it, but a street fight with pumpkins, it's like, okay, you know, come on.

1:14:43 Hey, Zach, who won that ratings war two weeks back in your opinion.

1:14:47 The, the, the, the head to head, the half hour, uh, yeah i'm not taking the bait on that nick not no.

1:14:55 No god forbid god forbid you'd be a wrestling commentator on the show and give you an actual commentary no but it's it's it's it's.

1:15:03 Not as new i mean it's you have to ask a more specific question it's there's a lot at play i mean obviously in total viewership smackdown dominated you know okay.

1:15:13 Okay here's okay here wait wait here's a real here's a real question did aw show themselves as real competition on that night point.

1:15:22 On that yes i think they did they absolutely okay i think they did and the like look i mean how could you argue otherwise.

1:15:31 I just asked you a question i don't know why you're so defensive i just wanted to know who you thought won i thought i thought it was clear that.

1:15:40 No i mean i'm saying that like if if they're head-to-head 18 to 49 numbers aw was was higher so it's like you have to give them, you have to throw them that bone, right? Like you can't like say, I mean, you, I mean, you, you said they got their ass kicked and in, in certain areas they did. But if you're looking at like, okay, here's the numbers that AW or that advertisers and networks care about, like in the head to head matchup, they, they won. So, I mean, you have to, you have to acknowledge, I think a lot of the different elements at play.

1:16:16 And if, I mean, There's areas where AW1, there's areas where WWE dominated too.

1:16:22 I don't think it's a– you can't answer that with one question like that.

1:16:27 I mean I really– Yeah, well, I was just curious based on like perception where you thought the big W went. Because for me, I mean I think I can't get past behind the fact that FS1 is a bargain basement channel at best.

1:16:42 You know, in TNT and TBS, they're not, you know, those are.

1:16:44 Like much more vibrant channels that much more, you know, they're much more in the psyche, I think of, you know, American viewing audience. So, you know, I also consider the fact that WWE was still able to get, you know, what is it? 200, 250,000 more people total.

1:16:59 I think it makes a big difference.

1:17:00 No, it does.

1:17:01 I mean, it's, it's not a, it's not like a clean sweep by any means. Like I don't, I don't look at it that way, that way either. I just think, it really depends on how you, on how you slice it. And I think the real, I don't know, the real positive, I think for, for AEW coming out of it is you just, you had the two shows in the same conversation and, and sometimes perception is, is reality. And I don't, I don't think that unfortunately for AEW, you know, it hasn't, I don't think it's helped them increase, you know, anything after that either. It's not like they skyrocketed or pulled more fans over. It's they're still kind of at their same, water level. So that's notable too.

1:17:43 Yeah, you know where I'm at.

1:17:44 I think you're right. I'll take that. I'll accept that. I think the AEW being in the conversation is a win. Sure, I think that's totally right. I actually think one of the.

1:17:52 Standout things, and it dovetails to this Friday Night History of SmackDown and all that stuff, is what I'm constantly surprised about is the ineffectiveness of, I think, CM Punk on their long-term ratings. That is something that I think is a story worth one day I'd like to kick around with you.

1:18:10 Yeah, I mean.

1:18:12 It would be a fun story to break down.

1:18:13 And it is, it is. I, I just don't, I don't, I don't like feeding the tribalism of, of the ratings talk, you know, cause it's just, you can, you can take numbers and, and.

1:18:26 Slice them any way that you want. I were, I used to work in the radio business.

1:18:30 And so it was always like, Hey, you know, this, you're number one, but you're number two in these three demos. So by this demo, it's like, you can slice these things any which direction and carve up any story.

1:18:41 You know, that you want in a lot of ways.

1:18:43 And so I think it's yeah, I'm not you know, I just I don't want to feed that tribalism.

1:18:49 I got it.

1:18:50 Incorrect analysis, you know?

1:18:52 Got it.

1:18:54 But we should have that conversation. That would be a fun one. Greg, back to you.

1:19:02 That's about all I had to say. Thank you, guys.

1:19:05 Thank you, Greg. You're bringing the heat as far as topics are concerned. I love it.

1:19:09 Greg calls in, starts a fight, and leaves.

1:19:14 Oh, come on. That wasn't a fight. That wasn't a fight. Thanks, Greg.

1:19:19 If I didn't start a fight, I wouldn't be talking. I don't feel like I would be right if I talked to Nick and didn't start a fight.

1:19:25 All right.

1:19:28 Good night, guys.

1:19:28 Thank you.

1:19:29 Very good.

1:19:29 Good night, Greg.

1:19:30 Thank you. I'm beginning to.

1:19:32 See a reputation-taking effect over here, Zach.

1:19:35 I feel like you're behind this. Go ahead.

1:19:38 Hey, you know what?

1:19:40 There's nothing wrong with a lively debate. That's not a fight. Hey, that's what the show's for. Let's go to 443, though. 443 has been waiting. I think this is Kyle from Baltimore, I believe. 443, go ahead and state your name and where you're calling from.

1:19:58 Yes, Kyle.

1:19:59 Kyle, what's going on, man? Good to hear from you. What did you think of SmackDown? Are you going to make Nick and I fight more, too?

1:20:04 I don't know. I wasn't really paying attention at the time we were here.

1:20:10 Ouch!

1:20:12 Because it kind of, this wasn't really all that interesting. You guys have seen a golf topic. I don't really pay attention. But when I, I wanted to talk about the beginning part of it because I thought that was the most interesting part with Sasha, Charlotte, and And Shoxy, another thing too, you also brought up Becky Lynch. So that's something I want to bring up too. With Becky Lynch for me, I think for me, Becky and Sasha are my two all-time favorite women I've ever seen in the ring before. When they first debuted back in 2015, I thought both of them kind of popped in my eyes like, whoa, these two are kind of like, I thought the men just didn't even know who they were because I never watched them in NXT. I only watched

1:20:53 them when they first debuted. And what the whole Becky was, when she became the man, it actually happened on my birthday, which is actually two weeks from now. But anyway, and so. And that became like, whoa, okay, finally something she's doing is finally interesting. Because before she was doing nothing. She was always yelling at the TV saying, why is this woman not on TV anymore? Why is she losing five seconds?

1:21:22 And now she became this character and this persona where she's the biggest star of the company. And now it's like... Now people have an issue with that. It's like I don't– and, like, have people have issues with Sasha and have issues with Becky. It seems– because to me, I know that she always gets– she always wins every single time and never loses ever since she became champion back at WrestleMania 35. And she was dominant throughout that time.

1:21:49 But I think also, too, I sort of remember back at that time, there was nobody credible for Becky to face at that time. She always plays Lacey Evans, and it was like, in Italian, it was like, it was so incredible for Becky to face. So maybe that was the other reason when Becky was champion for all that time.

1:22:05 And then throughout last year, it was supposed to be Shayna Baszler, but they decided not to do that, which I'm not really complaining because I'm not a Shayna Baszler fan, but I don't know. That was a weird time period last year with everything. Then she left for all that time, and then now it's like, And now we're in a position now where when it comes to Becky and Charlotte and Sasha and also Bayley, they've been protected, all four of them, for years and years and years. They never cared about any other woman until kind of recently with Bianca Belair. And now Jaxi, hopefully, too. But it's like, I don't know how much I feel about it. And I care less about Charlotte Flair and how we care about really Becky and Sasha at that moment. Because I'm

1:22:52 just as of being... Because I don't hate Charlotte Because I think she's a great wrestler Becky and her and Sasha have great matches together I just thought as a fan of Charlotte herself But this is just the Phantom of me with that So that's how I feel about that And then I'll get to the Sasha theme there In a second But yeah, that's what I thought about that What do you think about that theme?

1:23:13 I think it's interesting that, Nick That, you know Tonight was about Charlotte You know, and we've As we've kind of led this conversation and I obviously it's rooted in what happened last week, but you know, it's, it's become kind of like a Charlotte flare, uh, Charlotte Becky discussion, which is interesting because it kind of, I think it furthers my point from earlier that they are so attached to each other in terms of just their trajectory, you know, to the top of the division and the company main eventing WrestleMania.

1:23:47 They're, they're connected, but, uh, And I think, Kyle.

1:23:50 A lot of people feel the way the way you do about about Becky Lynch.

1:23:53 No, no question.

1:23:54 There's a an immense level of support for her and fandom. And we've seen that rear its head in in her not being able to fully turn heel like she's like she's trying to do.

1:24:06 But I think the focus tonight really is on Charlotte. Like it's her. She kind of.

1:24:13 Staked her claim. It's her show. You know, Becky's on Raw right now. I think that there's a collision course at Survivor Series coming. But, you know, in terms of just looking at what Charlotte did tonight now with Becky out of the picture and they're not going to be as connected because they're on different brands.

1:24:33 I still say this was a strong a strong night for Charlotte, Nick.

1:24:43 Are you a fan of AEW looking to sit back, relax, and listen to some like-minded podcasters who share your passion?

1:24:50 Do you want to be talked off the ledge after a segment that has you wondering what the heck are they thinking?

1:24:55 Do you want to join a discussion on what AEW is doing right and what they could do to improve? Then join me, Joel. And me, Greg, for the All Elite Conversation Club every Friday on the PWTorch Livecast feed. Search PWTorch in your podcast app and subscribe to PWTorch Dailycast or stream our shows directly from PWTorch.com. Find full details on the PWTorch Dailycast lineup at PWTorchDailycast.com.

1:25:32 Yeah, I think so, too. I really do.

1:25:34 I think, again, you know, considering all the time she was able to command and how she filled that time, you know, this was about her first and foremost. You know, I was looking at tweets over the course of the past week, you know, trying to follow the happenings of what was going on with the alleged backstage behavior and whatnot.

1:25:53 And so many people were writing like, you know, we don't need Charlotte. Actually, that's that's actually not true. Charlotte is holding a lot of the women's division together still and has over the past few years, you know, and I just can't get past, you know, as a viewer, just like all three of us are on this call right now.

1:26:12 For me, I think there's.

1:26:13 A lack of trust in WWE and Sasha Banks and that Sasha Banks is not seen in the same level of trust. security and dependability that Charlotte is and Becky is. And I think that's why those two in particular are identified at just that different level.

1:26:30 Than, than Sasha is.

1:26:32 And that, you know, that's my perspective on, on why that reads the way that it does.

1:26:37 Fair, fair point. Kyle, back to you. Yeah.

1:26:42 And so with that segment tonight, that was a really good opener. I thought I was, a great way to start the show. And I thought, too, with just watching tonight, too, as well, I was thinking, I've mentioned this before, and I feel like, to me, that the Raw roster right now, currently, is ten times better than the SmackDown roster because I look at what happened tonight with the three women they had there. They had Becky, they had Sasha, Charlotte, and Shoxy, which is cool to see Shoxy in the mix, too, and having a Shoxy Sasha match, I would like to see that. That would be cool to see. And Sasha turning heel, which was... I didn't fully expect that, but I kind of like it. And it's a cool scene.

1:27:24 But my thing is that... I know that they're hyping up Survivor Series between Becky and Charlotte, which is fine, but I just assumed, and maybe they can still do this, I don't know, probably not, but I just thought that they were going to do some type of thing after what happened last week. They were going to do some type of championship match between Charlotte and Sasha, where they're doing it with Bianca and Becky too, but I thought they were going to do the same thing. We're going to have a championship match on Raw to see if they're going to switch one of their titles. And I was just thinking to myself, if Becky retains a championship on Raw, On Monday. I just assumed that they were going to push the title off to Sasha because of

1:28:03 the whole issues I heard back from Becky and Charlotte, all that stuff. And not really my thought from it. They can still face each other. Hopefully they still even want to. That's a whole other conversation. I think one of them still works. still work with each other. So there's that scene. That's why I thought that they were going to, because then they switched the title over to Bianca Belair, and that was really talented. It was going to be Bianca and Charlotte, which is fine, but then it's like, it's kind of like a theme from that, and so I need to get rid of Survivor Series for that situation, because it's all confusing. I do like Survivor Series. I do like Robert and Spector stuff, and a lot of people don't. I do, but there's that.

1:28:48 But then also, too, a shot scene in Sasha, which I actually look forward to that, because that's something that's never happened.

1:28:54 They never released.

1:28:55 Basically, it was before 101, and now they have that thing and NXT with Bayley, and NXT with that, and then this single scene with Shaqsy, and the action can be awesome. But I think the problem is that that's it. It wasn't any credible woman for Charlotte to face. Because you look on Raw, you bet you have Bianca, Alexa, Who else do I think? I forget now, but there's a lot of top names on Raw for Becky to face, but Charlotte only has, as of right now, that seems credible enough. Kind of like Roman Reigns is Sasha Banks, and that's pretty much it. That seems credible enough that Charlotte can lose the title to. Even Roman Reigns. Roman Reigns keeps facing Brock Lesnar, and it's like... Roman Reigns

1:29:42 has an issue with this is a lot of babyface issues on SmackDown itself.

1:29:47 I mean, a lot to unpack there, um, for sure. And I mean, I guess, I mean, I mean, I'm curious too. I mean, I think we said we kind of took care of, you know, Shotzi and Sasha at the top of the show. Like I, you know, I think, you know, Nick, I don't want to speak for you, but it's a, it's a fresh, it's a fresh thing and shot. It's going to be Shotzi's turn to step up and we'll just be able to, who knows. And I mean, she certainly has a good opponent to do so opposite in, in Sasha. Um, The Survivor Series thing, Nick, with Charlotte and Becky, man, if you can get those two to work together, I think that's a money match right now, given what has happened.

1:30:29 I know they got the title match coming up on Raw, but.

1:30:32 You know, if you're if you're Vince McMahon and you're like, hey, you know, now we have this kind of real life thing. And that doesn't happen all the time in WWE. You know, they don't like to lean in that sometimes, but it's there for the taking right now. And, you know, I kind of think if you can if they can work a safe match with one another, Nick.

1:30:51 You got to I think you got to hit go on it.

1:30:54 Oh, yes, and they will work it because I think at the end of the day, they're still both professionals. I think they're going to try to make money off this thing, and the smart thing to do would be to throw it on last. I think this– it rings just too much as being– first of all, it's just so ironic.

1:31:14 That it would be– it's the Survivor Series.

1:31:16 I mean this really– this is the closest we're going to get to probably in any era, anytime soon, feeling like a Michael's heart type feeling back, you know, again with, you know, a competitive rivalry that, you know, has all of the, the makings of the drama of what people know from backstage, what they, you know, assume about it and fantasize about it. And it creates a volatile situation that is worth watching and worth watching with excitement and enthusiasm.

1:31:45 And I think that's, I think it's really interesting. I think it's going to be worthwhile watching.

1:31:49 I'm excited for it.

1:31:51 Me too. Well said.

1:31:52 Well said.

1:31:52 Kyle, thanks so much for the call.

1:31:54 We're going to jump into emails here, but really appreciate it as always, man.

1:31:59 Thank you for your take.

1:32:01 Yeah.

1:32:02 Yeah, you're welcome. Can I say one last thing?

1:32:05 Yeah, yeah. Go ahead.

1:32:06 Is that... is about this is about Roman Reigns himself is that who I just again I look I look at the SmackDown roster and I'm trying to think who could who credible enough can Roman Reigns can face that would be legit credible enough besides McIntyre and maybe and maybe they'll do something with Jeff Hardy because again the Raw side seems like a lot stronger than the SmackDown side and that's that's it no Nick any any.

1:32:31 Comment on that.

1:32:33 No, but here's the thing I think of what we've seen, Kyle, is like Roman Reigns' character succeeds without always having to be positioned against who we know to be the traditional main event opponents.

1:32:47 And I think there could.

1:32:49 Be non-traditional acts that are in here. Is it Xavier Woods? Is it rising Kofi Kingston or someone else that– maybe is out of the traditional.

1:33:00 Realm of an opponent for a world champion. You know, that's all possible.

1:33:05 And I think with Roman, you know, I think you're right that Drew McIntyre is going to be a major opponent for him in the, you know, not so distant future.

1:33:13 And they're going to get there.

1:33:15 Yeah, but I don't think they're in a bad situation with Roman either.

1:33:22 And the thing is with Roman too, I mean, he, I mean, even if you look back at his reign to this point, like it's, it hasn't been all, you know, tip top guys. I mean, Cesaro was, was there, you know, Ray, Jey Uso, right. A big one with Jey Uso. That's three, three, I think they did three pay-per-views together. I mean, like Roman's good enough where he's been elevated to.

1:33:42 Yeah.

1:33:42 He's, he can elevate the opponents that he has.

1:33:46 So he can take like a mid card baby face and for a handful of months or weeks or whatever, You know, Finn Balor, same thing.

1:33:53 Like, you know, just mid-level.

1:33:55 Guys who can, yeah, they can play up there, but Roman really helps put them over in a big way. That's why he's been so valuable in that role is he elevates those that are around him.

1:34:06 You know that last segment you're just listening to and the next one that you're waiting to listen to? Those can be one second apart with a VIP membership. You can unlock our commercial-free versions of our shows. PWTorch.com slash GoVIP tells you how to do it. That's PWTorch.com slash GoVIP. Options exist within the Apple Podcast app using your Apple account, through Patreon, which, by the way, you can sync up with Spotify, or just about any iOS or Android app.

1:34:31 With a full VIP membership, you can customize the feed for individual shows and clusters of shows and themes. Go to pwtorch.com slash GoVIP for full details on all the options to listen commercial-free, and with upper-tier options, unlock our VIP-exclusive podcasts that run throughout the week every week.

1:34:54 Kyle, thank you.

1:34:57 Kyle, thank.

1:35:00 You.

1:35:20 Thanks for making it, Kyle. It's always great to hear from you. Have a good weekend. All right, we're going to wrap up the caller portion there, Nick, and get to a couple emails here. But before we do, man, tell everybody about your Nick and Tom's Intercontinental Adventure. It's a very popular VIP audio show. You have to go VIP, guys, to check this out, pwtorch.com.

1:35:44 Nick, why should everybody listen to you?

1:35:48 Well, first of all, I appreciate the very popular. I didn't realize that. So thank you. I've always wanted to be popular in my life.

1:35:53 So, you know, Nick and Tom's Intercontinental Adventure is I think it's a WWE centric show, as Wade Keller has described.

1:36:01 It, where Tom and I really break down.

1:36:03 The week in WWE action and the happenings of what we see on the screen and what we know of what's happening behind the scenes and really try to, you know, come at the fandom.

1:36:13 From what we've all known it to be since.

1:36:15 We were little kids of, you know, analyzing what really makes it worth watching.

1:36:19 And I think you're going to hear, listen, Tom's grumpy. And as you can tell, I'm just a ball of joy.

1:36:25 So you have this convergence that comes in and, you know, it's literally an intercontinental adventure. Tom is calling in from Great Britain.

1:36:34 I'm calling in from New Jersey. I mean, it's a styles clash of the Titans.

1:36:39 And, you know, somehow Zach Hader's name just keeps getting dragged into this show.

1:36:43 And It's like, it's like the view comes to PW torch with, you know, a side of the old.

1:36:51 Like Rosie O'Donnell push ball throwing show. So it's all those things. It is wonderful.

1:36:56 It is like simultaneously the most combative yet gayest thing you're going to see in wrestling radio.

1:37:02 It's perfect.

1:37:03 Yeah.

1:37:05 Boy, am I right?

1:37:05 Isn't it?

1:37:06 It's amazing.

1:37:07 I mean, the way that.

1:37:08 You just the view, Rosie O'Donnell comparison, I'm not gonna be able to get that out of my head next time I listen to you.

1:37:15 So, oh, fantastic.

1:37:18 But yes, PWTorch.com slash go VIP to hear that show. And Nick, you're also a submissive columnist for for Smackdown as well for PWTorch.com. Check that out every usually every Saturday morning or close to every single week. Always a really fun read. And, Nick, your social media, too.

1:37:39 At nicholas barbatty n-i-c-h-o-l-a-s-b-a-r-b-a-t-i on twitter and instagram at nick dot barbatty.

1:37:47 I don't do them other things like people are talking about.

1:37:49 Them twitching and youtubing and all that and zach i don't do all that you gotta help me with this that's what i'm saying we gotta we gotta put ourselves on there they want to see us we're like the pretty faces of pw tour zach like we gotta get that out there we.

1:38:04 Gotta get that twitch show going for sure you know no doubt yes no doubt for sure.

1:38:10 All right.

1:38:11 Very good.

1:38:11 You know, maybe a 2022 project. Let's get to an email from JB from Detroit. He's got two emails here. He goes, what did you guys make a shot to his appearance in subsequent matches tonight? I think we've broken that down, but he brings up an interesting element here. I thought she actually seemed pretty over with the crowd.

1:38:30 They cheered and chanted relatively loudly for her before and during the match and was unable to get the crowd to boo her, too, after the match with Charlotte. I think she can be a successful heel or face depending on where they need her. My only issue is I think she's a little over the top and needs to bring the volume down a little bit. The tank and constant hauling will get pretty great on people over time if continued for an extended period of time. Love the show and go VIP. PWTorch.com slash go VIP. So, you know, we've broken down Shotzi quite a bit. But, you know, she was getting over in that match with Charlotte. As a babyface, I think the crowd was behind her. Hearing that, Nick, and seeing what happened at the end of the match

1:39:16 with the heel turn, I mean, is this the right way to go with her? Like, given that she was kind of getting that positive reaction that not many new faces in WWE get all the time, you know, was it a miss from a booking perspective to not run with her just in the babyface lane, given that response?

1:39:35 Okay.

1:39:36 No, no, no, not a miss at all.

1:39:37 I was shaking my head yes as you were reading the letter, but I don't think Shotzi was over tonight. I think the segment was over, and I think that she was coming into.

1:39:48 An established over segment.

1:39:49 I think Charlotte got a massive reaction when she came out. Sasha got a great reaction when she came out. It felt like it was an important segment, so adding someone else in added to what was already something that was going well for that in-crowd audience.

1:40:07 I think this was the right move to make Shotzi heal, and here's why. I think if she were to stay a babyface, she would be smashed. Acton's version of Nikki Cross I think.

1:40:16 That that she would just be the goofy you know just almost like quirky type person with a cute stick that then just became what everything was all about and I think that that this isn't now I think that that ceiling is lifted and I think that there could be dimensions and depths that's added to her a dark side and and I think it frees up Sasha Banks to be a baby face which I think is what was needed so no I think we are exactly where we need to I do, too.

1:40:45 I do, too.

1:40:46 I think, you know, it's not that they didn't halt any kind of wave of baby face momentum with this heel turn. It was one more match on one night. And so I think Shotzi is fresher, you know, as a as a heel. JB will finish up on this last point. He emailed a little bit later in the show and goes, also, I really enjoyed the Kayla Heyman interview dynamic. She actually asks hard hitting questions like the fact that everybody knows Paul Heyman. has passed associations to Lesnar, and Paul's swarminess seems even more heelish around the innocent and earnest Kayla. It's refreshing to have backstage interviews like Kevin Patrick on Raw and Kayla on SmackDown who don't seem like total pushovers. They've got good chemistry, Kayla and

1:41:32 Paul Heyman, to be sure. And I think it's a small role. that she plays nick but it's one of those small roles that i think means a lot in the.

1:41:41 Big picture of this whole angle um so i'm i'm high.

1:41:45 On it yes well first of all i think paul hayman always has great chemistry with everybody who's in those roles like i think he valued he values that role i mean i think you saw it with charlie caruso and some.

1:41:56 Others like he's always like there's always like.

1:41:59 That odd tension like you can't tell where the tension's coming from kind of thing but um I think it advances the storyline and I think it, it is, it is to the benefit of WWE and all involved that those individuals be seen as smart because then it makes the whole operation feel smart and everything. That's the benefit of then the people that they're interviewing. So yeah, it was, it was, she did her part in that segment today to make it a success. And that was, was a successful segment as it always is with, with, with Kayla and Paul Heyman.

1:42:31 So yep.

1:42:32 Well done by all involved.

1:42:34 Yep, absolutely.

1:42:36 All right, Nick, we'll put a bow on it there. Do you have anything else in your notes? I'm going scrolling through mine here and I think we've covered pretty much everything. It was a it was a quiet show, especially that second hour and the you know, the street fight took up a lot of time. But anything else that that we didn't get to that you want to make sure that that we do?

1:42:52 No, no, no.

1:42:53 Listen, this was, as I said, a serviceable show where not a whole lot happened.

1:42:57 I mean, Usos were on the show. We barely even talked about them, but there's nothing to talk about.

1:43:01 They had a really good match, and they were a pleasant watch, you know?

1:43:04 And that's kind of what this show was about.

1:43:06 And here's my real question.

1:43:08 What the hell happened to Javier? Is he, like, trapped in a box somewhere? Like, isn't there where.

1:43:13 I mean, I'm not complaining that I get to go to bed a half hour early, but I'm.

1:43:16 Just, like, stunned. Stunned.

1:43:19 I don't know.

1:43:19 Yeah.

1:43:20 Gosh, we're missing on Javier tonight. I'm scrolling through the list of numbers here to make sure that maybe he just didn't press one and I missed him, but no.

1:43:29 Stop scrolling.

1:43:30 Stop saying that.

1:43:31 You want to get to bed early. I got it.

1:43:34 No, Nick, thanks very much. Thanks to all the callers. Thanks to all the emailers. Very much appreciated. Again, waiting to be on the VIP side of things. A little bit later tonight, running down the show on the WageColor hotline, pwtorch.com slash go VIP.

1:43:47 I'm P.W.

1:43:47 Torch.

1:43:48 This is an editor, Zach Hadorn. Go VIP.

1:43:50 Check out my weekly audio show on the canvas on the, a look at the art of, of wrestling. And we take a weekly current event from the world of wrestling and just kind of hone in on the art performance of it this week. It's a frame by frame match breakdown of Hikaru Shida versus Serena deep from AW dynamite this week. So it was a fun match to, to break down. Also, you know, make sure PW torch is part of your daily fix a pro wrestling with news columns.

1:44:16 We've got show reports of all the major shows and, and there's a lot of them these days. It's all there for you at PWTorch.com, as well as hits and misses columns like Nick's, and you can check out my show receipt columns after Raw, SmackDown, and Dynamite. It's all there for you at PWTorch.com, so hopefully you guys make that a part of your day as you look for your wrestling content on a day-to-day and week-to-week basis. You can follow me on Twitter at ZHadornTorch, and Nick, one more time with your social media.

1:44:47 At Nicholas Barbati, N-I-C-H-O-L-A-S-B-A-R-B-A-T-I on Twitter.

1:44:53 Awesome.

1:44:54 Nick, always a pleasure, my friend. I love the back and forth tango that we do. It makes for a fun show. So thanks for the time tonight, man.

1:45:03 Zach, I got to keep you on your toes, man. You come in here. You're too nice. We got to ruffle you up a little bit. So that's what they throw me in here for. But I have a blast with you.

1:45:12 That was the first caller said it right. You're the best.

1:45:15 Appreciate it, man. Thank you, Nick. Thanks for everybody for listening for Nick. I'm Zach and we'll catch you guys next time.

1:45:56 Your time is valuable. Go VIP and listen to our shows commercial-free. A nice streamlined listening experience. pwtorch.com slash govip for full details on a commercial-free listening experience. And with a full VIP membership, you can create custom feeds for individual shows or groups of shows by theme and also unlock nearly four decades of archives and access our ad-free website with VIP exclusive content. pwtorch.com slash govip. Your time is valuable, and that's one of the reasons we offer VIP membership, pwtorch.com slash govip. You can participate in the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast by emailing your question or topic to wadekellerpodcast at gmail.com. You can also participate in the Wade Keller Post Shows by emailing wadekellerpostshow at gmail.com

1:46:43 during or right after Raw, Dynamite, or SmackDown. Let your voice, let your opinions be heard on our shows via email, wadekellerpodcast at gmail.com for the flagship and wadekellerpostshow at gmail.com for our post shows. It's next-level coverage that you come to expect from the PW Torch brand. No AI, no rookie perspectives, no unfounded rumors, no clickbait, no deceptive headlines, just high-quality writing, breaking news, and fascinating flashbacks every day at pwtorch.com. Pull yourself away from the vacuous social media experience that I know many of you regret once you get lost in it for minutes, if not hours at a time, and settle in for high-quality PW Torch-branded wrestling coverage.

1:47:25 Admit it, you love Nick Barbatti when he co-hosts with me on the Wade Keller Post Shows. Well, now you can listen to him every week on the Nicky's Club, a VIP exclusive podcast. Here's Nick to tell you more.

1:47:35 Hey, wrestling fans.

1:47:36 It's Nick Barbatti, and I'm back with the Nicky's Club, the place where the family of Nicky's comes together for big laughs and sharp takes on WWE. From WrestleMania rumors to surprise returns, I got you covered. The Nicky's Club, where the wrestling feels like the coolest club in town.

1:47:48 Nick Barbatti wants to be part of your pro wrestling life every week, so why not let him? GoVIP. PWTorch.com slash GoVIP for full details on signing up. We're compatible with Patreon, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and just about any other iOS or Android app out there. You can also stream directly from our ad-free VIP website. The Nicky's Club, waiting for you every week at PWTorch VIP. Did you know that you can enjoy commercial-free versions of all of your favorite Wade Keller podcasts and PWTorch Daily Casts? on Spotify?

1:48:18 Just go to patreon.com, search PWTorch, and subscribe to a VIP membership tier. You get a seven-day free trial, by the way, to kick the tires a bit and see if you like the service. And then sync it with Spotify, and you can listen to commercial-free versions of our free shows, like the Wade Keller post shows, the Wade Keller podcast flagship, our flashbacks, and also the PWTorch daily cast lineup. Again, all commercial-free, a nice streamlined listening experience. But with third-tier membership, you can also unlock all the VIP podcasts, including Everything with Rich and Wade, The Fix with Todd Martin that I host with Todd every week, the Wade Keller News Bulletin's post-pay-per-view roundtables, and an array of other VIP-exclusive podcasts

1:48:55 with different hosts and different themes. Check out the lineup. Go to Patreon and search PWTorch and subscribe and sync it up with Spotify or stay within the Patreon ecosystem. Either way works, go to Patreon and start your seven-day free trial. If you're listening to us on the Apple Podcast app, on Spotify, or any other app that allows you to rate our podcast, please take a moment to give us a five-star rating. It really helps us in the algorithm and helps them know that you recommend us to others. Just look for a place to rate the show on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to our shows, and please click that five-star rating. And of course, thank you so much for listening. A PWTorch

1:49:34 VIP membership doesn't just give you ad-free access to these shows and a ton of other VIP-exclusive podcasts throughout the week, but you also gain access to our unmatched, vast library of wrestling history, our contemporaneous week-to-week coverage through our progressing Torch Weekly newsletters dating back to the late 1980s, along with streaming and download access to hundreds of retro radio shows from the 1990s, including some of my interviews with wrestling's top newsmakers in the 90s, and also our podcast library dating back to the year 2003. There's no larger...

1:50:03 longer-spanning pro wrestling podcast library than that that comes with a PWTorch VIP membership, now approaching 20.

1:50:10 Years of podcasting.

1:50:11 Go VIP and dive into our post-pay-per-view roundtables, our coverage of some of your favorite eras of wrestling, top-name long-form interviews, and special format podcasts that we've done throughout the years. PWTorch.com slash go VIP. We have a streamlined sign-up form, and you can pay with PayPal or directly with your credit card or debit card. In one or two minutes from right now, you can be a VIP member and diving into our library, pwtorch.com slash govip.