Behind the Scenes at Jack Wolfskin with CMO Jason Isenberg

0:09 We're now in the second year. The intent is to ensure that this trail lasts for many, many years in the future. You know, this is not something that we consider a marketing campaign. You know, the the idea is to create something for through hikers that that lives much beyond my tenure at the company, maybe lives beyond Jack Wolskin.

0:31 Hopefully not, but this is something that we really want to last a long time, right? In my own personal experience, I think there are certain emotions that I certainly can tap into only by myself, right? And I think the opportunity to get inside your own head, uh, whether you're running or hiking, uh, is really really valuable.

0:52 Uh, and I think it's becoming less and less used, you know, in our modern society because you're always plugged in, you're always listening to music or to you know other things.

1:27 And passend some guest with this episode from Jack Wolfskin gesponsored. Also, before we dive into today's episode, a quick word from our partner. This episode is brought to you by Jack Wolfskin, and appropriately enough, their CMO, Jason Eisenberg, is my guest today. So, welcome everyone to my podcast.

1:53 My name is Mareike, and I love talking with people who are as passionate about long distance hiking as I am. Generally, this podcast is in German, but sometimes I invite a guest to the podcast who does not speak German, so therefore we're switching to English. And to everyone who don't normally listen to a German-speaking long-distance hiking podcast, welcome to my show.

2:16 In German, it is called Wanderbach und Kaffee, which means something along the lines of being awake for hiking, being in the mood for soaking all emotions, all ideas, and great views in, and of course, have a cup of coffee in the morning while being out there and having spent the night in a tent. I am a vivid long-distance hiker myself, and I hike many long-distance trails around the world.

2:43 When it comes to today's episode, I promise the following conversation with Jason is an interesting and a pretty deep one. It has many different layers and somewhat weaves together motivations to go out and push yourself to your limits. Differences between outdoor cultures in the US and in Germany, as Jason is US American and now lives in Germany or has been living in Germany for 10 years now, and eventually discusses the reputation of the brand Jack Wolfskin in Germany and also peeks behind the scenes of the evolution of the Wolf Trail.

3:21 I hope you will enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Jason, what a pleasure to have you on my show today. Welcome to Wanderbach und Café.

3:39 Thank you. It's great to be here.

3:42 So, and before we dive into a conversation about the outdoor industry in general and Czech Wolf skin and the wolf trail in more detail, I'd love to ask you the three classic questions. I always kick off my conversations with my guests, just in order that my audience gets to know who's actually the person I'm talking to today.

4:00 So, uh Jason, three questions for you. Who are you? Where are you joining me today? Because we are recording remotely. And what are you usually doing when you're not recording a podcast episode for my podcast together with me?

4:15 Great questions. Yes. So my name is Jason Eisenberg. I'm the CMO for Jack Wolfskin. Uh so the chief marketing officer for Jack Wolfskin. And uh, I'm joining from my home at the moment. As you can see, I've got my guitars behind me, and um, I'm quite musical and enjoy taking time between meetings to play some guitar.

4:31 So I'm in my home office this week, and uh I'm living near Nuremberg in Germany. The family and I have been here for about 10 years. Um my kids are more German than American at this point. So I wish that was the case for me sometimes. And um, when I'm not uh you know talking to you and I'm not working, uh honestly, I'm I'm running a lot.

4:50 I'm on the trails quite frequently. Uh, I'm mountain biking, and generally, like most of your audience and most of your guests, I'm um in the outdoors on the trails.

4:58 Awesome. So you're the perfect match for my podcast episode because the outdoors, uh, you know, all of this comes together quite nicely. And today um I would like to take the opportunity to talk with you to take a peek behind the scenes of an interesting trail that is um that appeared on the scenes here in Central Europe.

5:17 But step by step, Jason, first of all, uh we want to get to know you a little bit a little bit better. And um, so you are the senior marketing director for Czech Wolskin for the big outdoors brand. And um I I I thought about this in in the beginning when I prepared for our conversation. And I think when you are doing marketing for a big outdoors brand, you you probably don't have any choice.

5:44 You have to be an outdoors enthusiast in some in some way or another.

5:50 I think if if you're not, then you've chosen the wrong profession, to be honest. Um, in my case, this is the formula that works the best. You know, I really I really have to live and breathe the product and use the product. And if I can't, then uh I think I've made some poor choices in my career, to be honest.

6:07 So I'm definitely more in the uh the use it and appreciate it camp.

6:11 Nice, nice. And you already mentioned that you are a runner and you also um do some mountain biking. Um, but this is a hiking podcast, Jason. So of course I have to ask the question are you a hiker too?

6:23 I I definitely am. In fact, I think in terms of total hours spent on the trail, it's more hiking than anything else. I grew up as a hiker. In fact, I was thinking about also for the podcast, I was thinking about my my earliest hiking memories, and that got me thinking about my earliest memory overall, right?

6:40 And I remember as a child, oftentimes as children, our earliest memories are linked to high emotional moments, right? You know, surprise or joy, hopefully not fear, but sometimes fear. And in my case, it's uh my my earliest memory was the feeling of uh very cold water hitting my face as I apparently was crossing a stream in the smoky mountains with my dad.

7:01 We were going on a quick hike, and I was probably five or six years old. This is the first thing I remember. Um and ever since, you know, lots of time on the trails, you know, it's lots of time um hiking through the smokies uh on the Appalachian Trail, also on the West Coast uh uh as a child into my uh university years.

7:20 Uh since coming to Europe, it's been a little bit more difficult to find the time, you know, with my job, and I've got two teenage two teenagers here. Uh but we do spend some hiking. Exactly. We do spend a lot of time. Uh I'm fortunate to live in a in Bavaria and in Frankenschweis. And so there are uh you know numerous options and easy to jump on the trails of the weekends.

7:40 Um I've done the West Highland away twice. I ran it when once and and hiked it another time, um, making more plans in Scotland for early next year. Uh so yeah, I think I qualify for a hiker, not a true hiker yet, to be honest, uh, but definitely a hiker.

7:55 You hiked a West Highland phase, so you threw hiked a trail.

7:58 This is true. This is true. There you go.

8:02 And um, so the name of my podcast, Wanderwach und Kaffee. So actually, Wanderbach is a creation um of my own. So this word didn't exist before my podcast. And um from time to time, I have um English-speaking guests in my podcast, and I always also ask the question do you actually know what Vanderbach means?

8:24 And obviously, are you Vanderbach? Tricky question, maybe, Jason, or maybe not.

8:29 You know, it's funny. I actually uh Google translated the the phrase before the call, um, and it didn't come up with what I thought it would. So, you know, based on my limit my my limited German, you know, it's are you hiking awake or something to this effect? Is that correct or no?

8:45 Yes, yes, it's it's it's it's kind of leaning into the right directions, be like awake or being in the mood for going out on a hike and and soaking in all the experiences and all the emotions and all the hardship that can come up in through hiking as well. So um, are you a Vanderwach hiker or rather a Vanderwach runner?

9:05 So I'm still contemplating on this running, hiking outdoors um differentiation.

9:11 I think a little bit of both, to be honest. Um, you know, with the family, it's definitely more of a van der Wacht. Uh, and then maybe by myself it's more running, but I appreciate both. Um, and I think what you said, I which I really appreciate is the emotional component of it. You know, I think that's that really for for me and for all of us, you know, that's that's the reason that we do this, you know, is to either tap into your emotions or sometimes to escape from your emotions and then just let the nature wash over you, right?

9:36 So, but there's always an emotional component to it. Uh, so it's it's really, I think, powerful name you've chosen there.

9:42 Right. Oh, thank you. Um, it's it's pretty interesting about these emotions when you're out on a trail. Um, I think it probably wouldn't matter if you're running a trail or if you're hiking a trail, but do you think to actually dive into your emotions and experience the outdoors and be something like Vanderbach, do you need to do this alone?

10:02 Or is it also something you can experience when you do it together with maybe even a close friend or family, as you were mentioning? Or is this really purely something that you have to go through all by yourself to feel this special? I mean, you you were you were even saying, Oh, I'm not a through hiker, but you hiked uh you hiked trails and and you are out there running long distances and you are in the outdoors and in the weathers and in the rain and wind and in harsh terrain.

10:32 Um so all these emotions that are connected to being outdoors, is this something you can only feel when you're out there alone?

10:40 Oh wow, that's a great question. Uh I think yes and no. And I, you know, thinking about this um in my own personal experience, I think there are certain emotions that I certainly can tap into only by myself, right? And I think the opportunity to get inside your own head, uh whether you're running or hiking, uh, is really, really valuable.

11:02 Uh and I think it's becoming less and less um used, you know, in our modern society because you're always plugged in, you're always listening to music or to you know other things, um, and you're rarely spending time with your own emotions and in your own head, right? And so for me, when I I am on the trail, I intentionally separate myself from technology, except for my watch at times, um, and try to tap into that.

11:26 So there's a different, like maybe a deeper emotional set when you're by yourself. You kind of you know you can go deeper into your own emotions. But honestly, when I think about my favorite memories from the trail, it usually is with people, you know, whether or not it's with my best friend on the West Island Way or with my family, you know.

11:43 So there's there's special components to both, and I think both are needed. But if I'm going to kind of pick a favorite memory from the trail, it's usually with somebody else or with a small group. Yeah.

11:53 Interesting. Interesting. But to be fair, now as I'm thinking about this, I would probably say the same that um like the most memorable experiences, and they're not necessarily the most amazing ones, like it's not about an amazing sunrise or sunset. If it's a sunrise or a sunset, then it's with a person or with a group of friends.

12:17 We experience it together, interestingly. Or when we went through a tough day together on a trail with friends, or when we were trapped in a two-day snowstorm on a freaking mountain together with a friend. Alone, I probably wouldn't have survived, and therefore I wouldn't be here. But uh, but yeah, it has to it has to do with people, even though I think um specifically through hiking, and I'm gonna ask you how would how you would define through hiking in a second.

12:48 But I think specifically through hiking is something very emotional and where you go out probably first by yourself. But um but yeah, anyway, I wanted to ask you this question. How would you define a through hike? What is a through hike from from your perspective?

13:06 Yeah, it's another great question. I think um so we define it very simply, which is a long distance point-to-point uh trail where you're carrying your own gear and resupplying along the way, you know. So I think that's about as basic as it gets, um, because the distance obviously varies, right? And uh, of course, location and terrain uh and overall approach can can be different.

13:28 But I think in its simplest form, you know, it's a long distance hike point-to-point where you resupply and carry your own gear. Um and that's intentionally quite um generic or maybe broad, because again, we're working with um, you know, we're a global brand, so we're working with with different variations of through hiking.

13:46 You know, it it is different in China than it is in Europe, and of course, different in Europe than it is in North America at the moment.

13:51 Oh yeah, yeah.

13:52 But I think in the simplest form is that point-to-point long distance. Yeah.

13:57 I think for the last several years, this whole topic of hiking got way more diversified and way more varied, and there's many different kinds of how you can hike, if you want to call it like this nowadays. Uh, so you can hike from hotel to hotel, you can you can camp out in the wild, you can, I don't know, go on a day hike, you can hike multiple days with having a company transporting your backpack and your gear, or maybe even a big fat suitcase with a lot of comfort stuff in it, what you think you're gonna need after a long day of hiking.

14:38 A through hike can be being uh being a week out there in the the West Highland way, or it's something like hiking the Pacific Rest Trail, or a good friend of mine who is also on this podcast here, she is hiking around the world north of the Arctic Circle, and she's been doing this for oh gosh, I think she's in her fourth year of doing this.

15:00 Is this still a through hike or is this something different? It could be a through hike. So you you see, there's a there's a whole world of different ways what what hiking nowadays mean. Um and I think there is for for hikers, or let's put it like this, for for newbies in the hiking scene or hiking communities, it can be very intimidating a through hike, because there is all these big trails, Pacific Crest Trail or the Continental Divide Trail, or the North South Trail in Germany, or now there's the Wolf Trail coming on the scene.

15:38 Um, hiking thousands of kilometers in in one go. Um is through hiking or hiking intimidating, or what would you tell new hikers who want to tackle such an adventure like through hiking? What could you tell them? How is it what could make it less intimidating?

16:00 Well, first, to be honest, I think I'm quite intimidated myself after hearing about your previous guest who's hiking for four years ago. That's interesting.

16:08 She's in Canada right now, so she is she's in Banv actually these days. So it's amazing. It's it's really impressive. Yeah.

16:15 Okay. Um, yeah, I mean, to be honest, I think it can be intimidating. Uh part of what we've done over the course of this year is to really intentionally reach out to a lot of new first-time through hikers or hikers that are spending their uh their first night on the trail, even. And I think the most difficult thing sometimes can be finding the information that you need, the resources that you need.

16:42 Um, you know, there's fortunately a lot of good options, you know, like your your podcast is one of them. Um, but I think that the more that we can do as a community to make the resources and education available, the the better off for everybody. Um because oftentimes, again, it's it's it's where do I start?

16:58 Is sometimes the hardest question to get answers on for your first time through hiker. Because it is uh if you zoom out and look at what you're about to embark on. I mean, these are significantly complex or can be significantly complex journeys at times, right? When you have your health and your, you know, your of course your your own well-being to look after, it gets even more scary for a new person.

17:23 So again, I think something that that we as a community can do a better job of probably is more of what you're doing, which is to make resources available, education available, provide guidance where possible, you know, let people let through hikers hear from other through hikers and tap into the experience and the wealth of knowledge that already exists out there, but it may not be easily available at times, depending upon uh the location and who you are.

17:47 Yeah.

17:48 And and let me add here that uh through hiking uh doesn't need to be intimidating because um this the secret is that um you should you should cut this long trail, what whatever length, into little bits and pieces that you can actually digest. So when I headed out to my very, very first very long through hike, which was the Pacific Crest Trail in 2017, I was intimidated by the length because it was like what 4,260 something kilometers, and a lot of people are intimidated by that.

18:21 And they try to plan as much as possible ahead to kind of feel this little bit of uh security or safety. Because if you have all of this planned out in an Excel spreadsheet, what can happen? Well, and then then you then you go out, and after I would say latest, after of the first week on a trail, you can forget your plan, just throw it in the garbage bin.

18:46 And this basically is the secret: don't see a long trail as this massive endeavor of several thousands of kilometers, see it as the first stretch of I don't know, three, four, five days until you get to a little village, town, or whatever city for resupply. And this is this is what people need to focus on.

19:05 And I think this makes it way less intimidating when you see it as a little piece and then another piece, and or maybe it's a day of walking and it's yet another day of walking and yet another day of walking, and eventually you're arriving at the I don't know, Canadian border or um somewhere else, whatever the term is is.

19:24 Yeah.

19:25 You know, there's this saying it's something to the effect of, you know, God laughs at man's plans. You know, I think the trail laughs at our plans too, right? You know, the right the through hike, you know, sees the spreadsheets and says, okay, I'm gonna change things on you, and then broke out. I think one thing that I've personally tried to lean into more recently when I'm out in these longer hikes and trails and runs is curiosity.

19:50 You know, so simply like, you know, there's many times where I'm very much in the pain cave after a long run or in the middle of a long run. And in instead of approaching it from a very goal-oriented mindset of I must accomplish XYZ, I've tried to flip it and be more focused on let's see what happens, let's see how far I can go.

20:11 And I think that curiosity has helped me, but also I think that's something that that maybe uh a new through hiker could also lean more into is you don't have to solve it all on day one. You don't have to have that master spreadsheet you know planned out. But let's just get started and see what happens, you know?

20:28 Yeah. Um, so but when you're running, and I I get the notion when you're running, we're not talking about you're doing a 10-miler at the weekend.

20:36 No, not usually.

20:39 You're you're you're probably talking about there was a pain cave mentioned right now. So what what are we talking about when you're running?

20:48 Well, to give you an example, uh, so I do run almost daily, and those runs are are you know manageable, right? In the 14 to 16k range. But sometimes I'll get a little crazy and just decide to go on a random, like 90 kilometer run, which is what I did about a month ago without much.

21:05 Hang on, 99T, like 9-0. All right. Yes, yes, there we go.

21:10 Well, ask me why. You know, sometimes after um, I think you know, weeks and months of of board meetings and and uh and uh strategy discussions, you know, my mind just needs to get out on the trail. Uh so I tend to kind of throw these big adventures randomly into my life.

21:25 Yeah. Um, and and there, of course, there's the why, because this the why question is always the big question from people who are not hiking, who are not running, and who are not bikepacking, or let's take whatever outdoor activity that can go off rail a little bit when it comes to distance. Um so what what is your why?

21:47 You mentioned already board meetings and you know, get a little bit of fresh air to your brain. Uh, but but what actually does it to you? Why are you doing this? And and I think there's a huge difference. Sorry, I have to ask. This question because I hear this question asked many times. People ask me, Mareike, why is a day walk not enough?

22:07 Of course it's not enough. But I want to pass on this question to you. Why is like a 10-mile or at the weekend not enough, Jason?

22:14 I think when I was younger, it used to be more about the goal, you know, and more about the numbers and accomplishing an objective. That used to be the why. Like I really do enjoy pushing myself. And of course, I'm not unique in that, right? A lot of people do. As I've gotten older, uh into my my ripe old, you know, mid-40s, uh, where I'm full of wisdom now.

22:35 Uh it's it's it's changed, as I mentioned a minute ago. For me now, it's more about um how far can I go, or what's beyond the next uh curve of the trail, what's over the next uh hill. It really is more about curiosity for me now than anything else. In fact, I intentionally on my my weekly runs will change up my route frequently just to explore a new street uh in the hometown that I live in, because it's about curiosity and about trying to discover more for me.

22:59 Um I think everybody needs to find the motivation. So I love the question, uh, and I I love the fact that you're asking that. Um uh but the motivation and the why is quite important. I think for a lot of the through hikers that we've talked to, uh, of course, the motivations uh vary uh quite widely, but oftentimes uh it I find it interesting that when you really get to know them, they've they've told us that they've found themselves on the trail.

23:25 So oftentimes they're out searching for something, you know, they're out searching oftentimes for themselves. Um, and I think that's also maybe a part of my own motivation is uh going back to our first uh discussion uh today regarding um uh the motivations and and the and and why we're on the trail, for me it's about finding a little bit more about myself too.

23:46 So right.

23:47 Yeah.

23:48 I I figured when when I set out on the Pacific Crest Trail, I was not really well, I started without looking for something specific other than seeing nice landscapes, yeah, which you can undoubtedly can in the west of the US. But when when hiking along trail, you eventually realize, gosh, there is a couple of topics that I need to work through, or there is a couple of things that I need some answers to, or there's there's something nagging in the back of my head um that needs to be, I don't know, focused on, or that needs some priority now.

24:27 And um, and this is also something that I would even say this is maybe even the difference between multi-day hiking and through hiking. That multi-day hiking, you go out for the nice landscape and the good weather. Um, of course, you can also get some fresh air and reset and decompress and and whatnot.

24:47 But when you're doing through hiking, um it's about bigger questions and it's about bigger searches. I don't know. And and a lot of people, specifically people who never did a long through hike before, whenever they they approach me and ask me questions, and they they often um say something like, Oh, I'm so worried um if I could get back into my job when I come back after my sabbatical, or I I quit my job now to to have half a year off to actually being able to hike a long trail.

25:18 And they're so worried about getting back to their old job. I um I often um tell them, you should be more worried if you even want to get back into your old job, or if this half year off doesn't plant new ideas into your mind, or you you you finally notice, oh, I don't want to do this anymore. So um people sometimes are not aware about what through hiking can actually do with you.

25:47 It's so true. You know, something you said earlier really uh resonated with me. Yeah, we've had the opportunity to speak to a lot of through hikers, of course, you know, being in the industry. And I think broadly speaking, most of the through hikers that I've that I've met and talked to and had discussions with over dinner, etc., are some of the most grounded um people that I've met.

26:08 And of course, it doesn't require you to be through hiking, but I think once you've spent you know, three months in your own head, you know, and and worked through some of those underlying um, I don't want to say issues, but you know, uh maybe mental challenges that you might have had, you come out the other side a different person, you know, and you can actually tell that when you're speaking to many through hikers, I find.

26:31 Yeah. Yeah. And then I always used to say that if you survived out there for several months, and if you went through all the valleys, metaphorically through the valleys, and also physically through the valleys and over mountains, and then it doesn't matter if you are, I don't know, missing five minutes of a of an important meeting, or if you are, I don't know, crashing a project and the project was not that successful.

26:56 Or maybe I shouldn't say it is, maybe some of my bosses listening to, but uh um, it it puts things into perspective.

27:03 That's right.

27:04 Um, and also speaking of perspective, you mentioned that you moved 10 years ago from the US to Germany. Did I get this right?

27:13 That's right.

27:14 And um, I myself, I also have a lot of hiking experience all over the world in New Zealand, in Africa, in uh South America, and of course in the US. And and I I also contemplated before our conversation today, um, where actually is my favorite hiking ground? And I have to say, even though I I loved living in New Zealand and hiking in New Zealand, and I'm I'm I'm absolutely a convinced European because I've been born in Europe, obviously.

27:43 And but my favorite hiking grounds are the US. Um, because the national parks are mind-blowing, the landscape, the the sheer network of hiking trails, um, the support of hiking trails and hikers from communities. And I mean, let's face it, compared to Europe, the US is not very densely populated, setting aside all the big cities and East Coast and West Coast and whatnot, right?

28:12 And um, you have the experience of having lived, of course, you you grew up in the US and you um you started your outdoor career somewhat in the Smoky Mountains, which are beautiful, by the way. I've I've been hiking there as well. Um, and now you're in in Europe. How would you compare European outdoors culture to um the US outdoors culture?

28:33 Do you see any differences or is it more alike than I probably see it right now?

28:38 Yeah, I I think it's more alike than than maybe I would initially think it would be. The reason for that is because I think human motivations are the same, right? Again, as we as we mentioned before, the underlying motivation for being on a trail is the same. Humans are humans, right? No matter where you are.

28:56 Right.

28:57 The cultural differences I think are subtle, um, but they're fun, right? So in the US, you know, when let's talk about through hiking, there's a you know, a very well-defined culture around through hiking. You know, it's it's the birth of the modern through hike activity itself, is the US. A lot of what we consider through hiking culture has come from the US, whether that's trail being gules or trail magic or you know, whatever the case may be.

29:22 I think you the whole vocabulary, yeah, the whole turn. Exactly right.

29:26 Exactly right. You know, I think Europe will find, so we'll talk about this, I'm sure, uh later on, but through hiking is growing in Europe, right? We know this. And I think it's going to be fun over the next 15 years to see how the culture in Europe develops on its own and becomes its own version of through hiking.

29:44 Um, I on the surface, I think they're quite similar to answer your question, but I do think, of course, there are small, subtle differences. But I'm more interested in seeing how they develop in Europe and how the European through X scene becomes its own culture and its own scene, independent from traditional North American uh cultures.

30:02 I mean, technically, um, technically, even a small country compared to the US as Germany, we probably have more hiking trails than the US. Like, I I think somewhere I read the number of 300,000 kilometers of hiking trails in Germany alone, which is crazy. And this whole Camino thing, a lot of people think hiking a camino is like the camino, like the the remaining 800 kilometers before you eventually reach Santiago de Compostela.

30:35 But technically, you could almost everywhere in Central Europe or even in Northern Europe, Eastern Europe, you can step out of your door and you you are very close to a camino. And if you wanted to, you could right there start walking towards Santiago de Compostela. So, and therefore, I think it's somewhat interesting that this whole through hiking culture, I would even tend to call it like a pop culture, even because you mentioned there is like trail magic and trail angels and this whole vocabulary, all these terms around that evolved.

31:06 Um, it's it's still kind of interesting that through hiking kind of started in in the US, even though walking in Europe is so easy. Maybe it's too easy, maybe it's not enough wilderness in Europe to make it attractive. I don't know. What do you think? What about? I mean, yeah, the whole factor of wilderness.

31:24 Don't you miss wilderness in Europe?

31:27 I do. And that's that's uh I think a key difference. Um there is something. I was talking to a friend about this over the weekend, you know, when you are hundreds of miles, you know, or or you know, hundreds of hundreds of kilometers from anything else, you know, any other modern civilization, there is something, I don't know how to describe it, it's on the wind, you know, that you can feel physically sometimes the wildness, right?

31:51 I'm sure you know what I how I referred to this. Um you can feel it, you know, in your bones, in your spirit. There's something about that, that wildness that you can certainly find in pockets within you know within Europe. Um, but but they are they're smaller pockets. So yes, I do miss that. But I think you know, as we talk about as an American living in Europe now for 10 years, I I've really grown to appreciate the differences um in Europe in a much there's they're not you know it's a feature, not a bug, is what I would say, right?

32:25 So, for example, the the lack of wildness in Europe may be actually one of the unique benefits of a through hike in Europe, right? Because you're plugged in, you're plugged into, you can pop in on the trail to your local bakery or to the local bakery, grab a quick espresso and be out the door again. As an American who wants to understand more about European or German culture, that appreciates the interactivity uh of the community, that's something that obviously you can't find you know on the PCT, right?

32:57 So, yes, that you do miss the wildness, but I think there is a charm and a real benefit to linking trails with communities in Europe that you can't find in the US, for example.

33:13 Yeah, yeah. So basically, in in Europe, we shouldn't look into what we're not having, we should look into what we got.

33:22 It's the classic uh scenario, right? You only appreciate something not there, I think.

33:27 Yeah, and um, I mean, my I've I've been basically hiking most of my life, starting with my parents dragging me into the forest when I was a kid, and then started doing little hikes and multi-day hikes myself, and then eventually the big life-changing thing with the Pacific Crest Trail. Um, so the Pacific Crest Trail is my first laugh when it comes to through hiking.

33:50 However, um, because of family reasons, I also do a lot of hiking and the appellations. And um, so my partner, his first laugh is the AT, the Appalachian Trail. And um, he likes the PCT, he hiked it as well, but his first laugh is the Appalachians. But when I'm hiking in this green tunnel, my formative through hiking years happened on the Pacific Rest Trail, where around every corner you had these postcard-worthy views and views and views.

34:21 And um, I've been discussing this so many times with my partner, and he said, Look, you should not look for the views, you should look for what's right in front of you. It could be a small salamander, it could be the change of seasons on the Appalachian Trail, it could be you've been hiking for days without any views, and then suddenly you're on a mountaintop in the smoky mountains.

34:44 If you want to pick this up again, and suddenly you have a view, and then you dive back into the green tunnel, and then you can hear the bird songs and the salamanders, you see the salamanders, and then you come through all these charming little towns where you can experience um local American life that is not New York City and San Francisco and LA and whatnot.

35:04 Um, so it's it's always looking into the specifics of a specific trail and embrace them and not rambling about what it's not, right?

35:16 I think you're 100% right. You know, to be honest, I'm more with you. Uh, this is the reason that I love Scotland so much, is you know, when you're in the highlands, you know, you can of course you don't have the elevation there, but you have uh the expansiveness you can see, you know, for for forever.

35:31 Sometimes it feels like I love that. And I again I love the the wild feeling on the wind. But I think to your point, you know, I think you need to uh learn to appreciate every trail for what makes it special, you know, and and every trail is special in its own way, uh, even how small those those moments might be, the small salamander or the little creek crossing, but every trail has them, right?

35:54 And if we look for them, we'll find it.

35:56 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, yeah, so and also in in Europe, and I mean you've been um with your with the brand, Czech Wolfskin, you're you're also looking into this, and there, I mean, there's a reason why you're um why you're looking into this whole through hiking scene and community and you're developing gear for for through hikers.

36:18 Um so over the last several years, there is an I don't know, hiking sees such an increase in popularity. So specifically, hiking in Germany, it's not that long ago that hiking in Germany meant you go out there with super heavy leather, sturdy leather boots, probably one kg on each foot. Um, and then you have your cheese sandwiches and maybe a bottle of beer or whatnot in your sturdy leather backpack that weighs five kgs alone.

36:52 Um, so hiking had a very specific reputation, which also meant that only elderly people, retired people, do something like this. So what do you but but now it's changed. Obviously, it's changing, and not just in the US with all the through hiking and pop culture-like tendencies of through hiking, and there's more and more long-distance hikes that uh pop up all over the world.

37:19 Where does this popularity come from? Why do not just old retired people, because it's not old, it's like aged, more wise retired people, uh, start to hike? Or it but it's also a young generation. It's it's uh it's people that maybe 10-15 years ago didn't even think about they would go out on a hike and even sleeping in a tent.

37:42 Oh no, absolutely not, but it's changing. Why? What do you guys in check wolf skin or even you personally, Jason? Why do you, or where do you see the reasons for this?

37:52 This is one of the things that really gives me a lot of hope. So, what I mean is, you know, as a parent of two teenagers, um, and this is not just a sample size of two, this is uh across across Gen Z and Gen A, you know, we're we're hearing, we're seeing, we're you know, we're talking to kids that are telling us they are intentionally self-selecting out of screens, you know, and trying to get away from screen time, from social media, you know, from the algorithm.

38:22 Um, you know, we're telling tell they're telling us that they're recognition, there's a recognition that doesn't make me feel alive, it doesn't make me feel like myself. You know, so I think, again, going back to my first comment, I really find a lot of hope in this because it wasn't that that many years ago that we felt like, or I felt like um, you know, the this new generation, you know, the world's ending, they're just on screens all day long.

38:42 And and what we're finding is is quite the opposite. There's a a natural um tendency to push away from that and to find um find yourself again on the trail in nature. And I think that's what we're seeing. So to answer the question regarding growth, you know, just give you a couple of examples. If you know the social media site Strava, you know, it's kind of a social site um activity tracker.

39:10 The fastest growing clubs on Strava last year were hiking clubs, uh, not run clubs anymore. So it started maybe five years ago with run clubs, and now hiking clubs have surpassed run clubs as the fastest growing social activity on Strava. And these were all you know uh people within the ages of 18 to 24, 26, 27, maybe.

39:32 Yeah.

39:32 Quite quite young, actually. That's really exciting. And I think that's a great thing for for hiking, for the sport, for the outdoors. You know, my hope is that we all we all hope that as they as they grow up and become more influential through politics or whatever, that there's also going to be an appreciation for for trails and for sustainability and for all that we cherish as a result of this.

39:54 So I'm very actually optimistic uh uh as I kind of think and talk to younger people in regards to their feelings about hiking.

40:04 Um but but I I also think on the on the one side, um, I'm absolutely supporting this idea that the younger generation wants to get away from all the screens. And um, I mean, I also go hiking to get away from not just screens, but to get away from people, because my job, like my full-time job, is including a lot of conversations and communication, and I work with a lot of people, and I also go out to get away from people and not having to talk at all.

40:28 Um, but on the other hand, um, this whole aspect of social media, doesn't it encourage people to go out hiking? Because there people see other people hiking, and there is amazing pictures, um, not just good pictures, but it also started to show more the realities of what hiking also means, which can be a pain cave, as it mentioned, as you mentioned for running.

40:52 Um, but um, I think it's like, how do you say this? It can be a very good thing to get away from screens, obviously. But on the other hand, whatever you see on your screen inspires people to actually go out and hike.

41:06 Yeah. Listen, it's it's two sides of the same coin, right? This is we're not going to ever go back to the non-screen days, uh, whether it's nice or not. And you're right. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of benefits. And personally, a lot of my trail scouting you know comes from social media or from other screen-based sites.

41:29 Um, and so there's a clear benefit to this. But I think um uh again, initially the feeling might have been amongst the older generation that it's all lost, you know, that that the young generation will never appreciate uh you know being in you know, touching grass, as like as they like to say. And I think that's proven to be quite the opposite, which is great news.

41:50 Right.

41:51 Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, I also want to come back to something that kind of has to do with the old idea of hiking in Germany. So when when a lot of people think about the brand Jack Wolfskin, it's more or less connected to this old reputation of hiking. Czech Wolfskin, I mean, I can see that the brand is changing and it's changing its reputation, and you guys do a pretty good job in supporting this change, obviously.

42:23 But um, it's not that long ago that Czech Wolfskin was seen as a brand elderly people wear on their Sunday afternoon walk in the park. Um sturdy, dark brown, dark blue, black, heavy clothes that protects you when you're going out there for half an hour, walking your dog or going for a walk in the park.

42:48 Um, so this is kind of the reputation that Czech Wolfskin had slash have. I I don't know because now I I know a little bit more of what you guys are doing. But do you do you agree? Do you still see that people have this idea of Czech Wolfskin? And what are you doing? Or what did you what did you do to change this reputation towards a different one?

43:10 Sure. Yeah, no, it's a great question. Uh and the the answer to the question, yes, and the the reputation certainly exists, and it's it's not something that we are trying to intentionally run away from. It's it's who we are. Um, but I think, and then and listen, the hiking is uh you know is an activity that should be enjoyed by everybody, right?

43:27 And we're happy if if if we're making product that that's that protects people from the elements, uh no matter who they are or how old they are or where they live, right?

43:35 Right.

43:35 But to to your point, I think what we're trying to do to do now is go back to essentially the founding promise of the brand. So what I mean by that is uh Jack Wolfskin was founded near Frankfurt um in 1981 by a gentleman who was looking at the hiking product of the time, the leather product, the the the gear you mentioned, and and thought, I can do it better.

43:58 I can do it lighter, I can Create product that lasts longer. And that was essentially the initial promise of Jack Wolfskin was to create a functional product that's accessible for everybody, right? What happened to us, and what happens to a lot of brands, is as you grow and as management changes and strategy shifts and macroeconomic forces apply themselves to your brand, you can lose focus.

44:24 And we definitely did. And as a result of that, the reputation became not what it originally was, which is more of a rebel brand, actually, in many ways. Because back when Jack Wolf's the new kid on the block, it was the brand that was shaking things up. It was creating highly technical products that was lighter than many of the other products in the marketplace and was designed for a very specific purpose, which was hiking.

44:50 And again, over the years we lost that. And so what we're doing now is we're trying to return to that and kind of deliver on the original promise of the brand through creating, we'll talk about this, I'm sure, but creating product that's really designed to go further and designed for through hikers specifically.

45:07 But but it seems to be a huge jump from let's let's take this stereotypical retiree taking a dog for a walk in Sunday afternoon, who obviously and of course also needs a good jacket to be protected from the outdoors, uh, from the weather, from the rain, whatnot. But then on the other hand, now you're looking into um designing clothes for for through hikers.

45:33 So it's a huge jump. Do you only address through hikers, or do you also try to include hikers who kind of refrain from calling themselves through hikers, or this whole this whole topic that we already talked about of through hiking being intimidating for some people? Because, oh, I have to hike 30 kilometers a day and I have to hike like a couple of thousand kilometers at a time.

45:58 What or to whom do you intend to sell this new collection of through hiking gear?

46:05 Yeah. So Jack Wolfskin has always been a hiking brand, right? As I mentioned, this is the original promise that uh the brand was founded on. For us to be a hiking brand, we have to um we have to create product that works for every hiker, from through hikers all the way down through to your dog walkers, right?

46:26 And everybody in between. And so the idea behind through hiking is let's create product that goes 4,000, 5,000 kilometers and much, much further, right? Because we know that from a pure design perspective, if it works there, if if it works on the PCT, the AT, the Wolf Trail, wherever, then it'll work for the dog walker, right?

46:49 Now the product itself is different, of course. We're not selling you know highly technical uh shells to dog walkers unless they unless they want that. But the the design approach, the the way that we build the product is going to be built with longevity, with durability, and with lightweight in mind across all product categories, right?

47:12 And so, yes, from a pure activity distance perspective, it is a leap, you know, from your dog walker to your through hiker. But the design philosophy and how we communicate uh is largely the same across those those multiple categories because the product is designed to get anybody further, no matter what further means to them.

47:33 And I I totally agree. What works on a multi-thousand kilometer hike, why wouldn't it work on a day hike or for the dog walker in the park? Right. So what what are you actually designing? So is it about shoes? Is it also gear? Is it is it clothes? What what are you looking into designing or what are you doing behind the scenes already when it comes to designing a through hiking gear line?

47:57 Yeah, so let me answer that question by I'll come back to it, but let me just quickly explain what we've done. So about a year and a half ago, two years ago, we, you know, as I mentioned before, we said, okay, listen, we're a hiking brand, we need to build product for all hikers. That includes through hikers.

48:13 So if we're going to build product for through hikers, we need to bring them into the process. And so we've worked with, I think, eight full-time through professional through hikers to build the collection, in addition to about 20 other more consultant uh through hikers. So the collection that that we can talk about if you want was truly built by them in many ways.

48:39 Um, they've been wearing the product for the last 12 months, you know, and they've been giving us feedback throughout that process. I can't tell you how many times that we've brought them back into our offices in It Stein, Germany, near Frankfurt, and had you know long three-hour, four-hour discussions regarding the collection, the features, the benefits, the functionality, what worked, more importantly, what did not work, right?

49:02 Um, and so it really has been built by through hikers for through hikers. We've been the ones that have, of course, facilitated the production, but much of the design, even the color choices, were done by through hikers, which is really exciting. That's a great example. You know, initially, if you you know, if you look at trends across the broader landscape, the marketplace, generally at the moment, they're more muted.

49:26 A lot of uh a lot of outdoor product is more muted. You see this more and more these days, but the feedback from our through hike community was we actually want the louder colors, you know, we want to express ourselves. Uh, and so we create a product that does that.

49:40 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And um, so what are the products that you are producing? Is it also shoes? Is it clothes only? Are you looking into backpacks, tens, sleeping pads? So what are you talking about when we're talking about through hiking gear?

49:55 Yeah, so the the collection is launching next February. Uh, and I won't go into a lot of detail at the moment because um this is not a a product product uh podcast, I don't believe. But quickly, uh it's a a collection that includes um a technical shell, uh, it also includes a down jacket, then we have um some hoodies, of course.

50:16 You you can't have a through hike without without a good sun hoodie, right? Um we have uh technical shorts uh as well, and there are uh there is uh footwear included also. So the footwear specifically is quite interesting. Um obviously through hikes these days are done primarily in trail runners. Uh and so you know we we've we've built um the footwear to be similar in design, but the feedback again from the through hikers that we work with closely was that you know they're you're going through um you know 13 or 14 pairs of trail runners over the course of you know 3,000, 4,000 kilometers, right?

50:56 Well, three to four pairs, yeah.

51:01 We had some crazy uh estimates in terms of number of shoes. And obviously, it depends on terrain too, right? Um but you know the the shoes have been designed with durability in mind uh and also lightweight. So everything that we're doing is always a trade-off between these two. Lightweights, of course, this is critical for through hiking, but also durability is quite important too.

51:23 So we're trying to provide product that doesn't force a huge trade-off, that we can deliver both, and that's essentially the the promise of the collection that again has been delivered on by the through hikers themselves.

51:36 Yeah, very interesting. So February 2027, we will see, we will be able to try out uh what you're what you're working on. And and these through hikers who tested the gear, they were not just hiking somewhere randomly, they were actually hiking on a trail that um I I tried to remember when I heard the first time about the wolf trail.

51:59 So there were some you you did a pretty good job in making it somewhat a secret, or there were some you could you could read something in social media. Yeah, so it was like okay, there's a new trail in in central Europe, and then oh, there is a this it's called the wolf trail, but stay tuned, more information coming soon.

52:18 So um you did a really good job in in making the the hiking community, specifically in Europe, who also probably have some experience elsewhere, hiking specifically in the US, probably, to or what about this trail? Because I remember vividly when when I hiked the Pacific Crest Trail, and when my US American hiking buddies asked me about what about the trails in Europe?

52:44 And I was laughing and I was like, there is no trails. And um, back then, like maybe 10 years ago, it was more about multi-day hiking in Germany. So you went out for a hike for a long weekend or maybe a week, and that's it. But um, I mean there there have been already these European long-distance trails existing, so it's like the E1 or E2 or E3 or whatnot.

53:06 But it's not it's not a sexy name for a long-distance hike to have a hike that is called a letter in the number, or there's these GR hikes in in France or Spain. Um, I mean, recently there's the uh Nord-Suit Trail, the North South Trail in Germany, which is also an interesting project and an interesting initiative to create something as an alternative to the US American hikes.

53:33 And now this was a lot of talking about introducing the hike that you guys created or that you guys uh came up with, the Wolf Trail, which is an interesting, it's it's yet another super interesting trail, an alternative to the US hikes or even other hikes worldwide. Well was this your intention, or um what was the idea behind creating a trail um here in in Central Europe?

54:02 Yeah, you know, interestingly enough, uh 16 months ago, the the Wolf Trail did not exist. You know, this wasn't something that we set out to do from from the beginning. Uh this is never part of the of the plan, actually. What happened was we were talking to our Thruhike athlete team, uh, who I mentioned earlier have been involved in the product creation itself, and also talking to the community.

54:24 And it became aware to us that there was an opportunity, there's space within the European network of trails to create something, as you said, um, a little bit unique and something that would still deliver on the distance that was important to us, uh, but also something that was more accessible because you know we we as I as we've been talking about, the the goal of of the brand is to just encourage hiking, no matter what the level is, honestly.

54:53 And so the idea behind it was to create a trail that would deliver on the distance, that would deliver on the through hiking uh the essence, the promise of through hiking, but that it would also be accessible and um relatable in a way. Uh and so that was the initial uh idea behind it, you know, and when you know we worked with athletes, we worked with uh local trail organizations and started to piece this together.

55:16 Um, and we can talk more about where it went and how it went. But that was the original idea behind it was essentially to just to give another opportunity for hikers to to get out and see Central Europe.

55:30 Right. And then I think probably January, February, it started to be more known where the trail is actually going and well about about the route of the trail, where does it start, where does it end, where does it go to, and uh you also had five hiking events along the trail, which are really interesting, and I will come back to this because community in hiking is also a growing cool thing to look into.

55:59 But let's start with the initial route of the wolf trail. I was I was really amazed when I found out that the trail starts in Poland because um I know Poland quite well, but I was also wondering where is the trail actually going through? Because the trail initially started somewhere along the Baltic coast in Poland, and I know from own experience, because I also did a lot of biking in my life, there are amazing cycling paths along the Baltic coast in Poland and then into Germany, and then at some point you can cross to the south, but still, there's a lot of cycling path only and not a lot of hiking that can be done.

56:39 And I was wondering where where are these guys going to route the trail to and through? And um, so yeah, yeah, maybe you can you can you can share a little bit on the last yeah, let's talk about the last part first.

56:54 And I think that was the biggest learning, and and frankly, the biggest mistake uh what was we we initially you know designed the trail, as you said, on the Baltic coast. And the first several hundred kilometers to Poland were really incredible. But then, as you mentioned before, it it quickly became more of a a bike trail than a uh through hike.

57:14 Um, and and that was you know, we had athletes on the trail that were telling us this in very very vocal terms, as you might imagine. I can't imagine not something I enjoy doing. So listen, this year was always going to be a test. You know, that that was the intent. Let's let's let's put something together, let's let's let's take a look at the maps, let's talk to local landowners, you know, try to to create something that that our through hike team uh can go out and take a look at.

57:43 Uh and we knew from day one, because all trails evolve, right? They're they're never static, or very rarely are a trail static. It doesn't stay unchanged. And so the intent was always to build something that we we thought might work, but frankly, we had no idea how much of it would work and how much it would.

58:03 So uh this year was always about that testing, learning, getting people on trail, uh, and then getting feedback. Uh and so we can talk about what's next. But the original idea was to basically link together uh you know some of the more scenic areas of Europe, throughout Central Europe specifically, create a trail that was accessible.

58:23 You know, so initially the idea was if you start and move from north to south, then the first you know half of the trail roughly would be quite flat, you know, still scenic, but also quite flat, which would give a new through hiker the chance to kind of get warmed up over the course of those months. And then as you hit the Black Forest and head down the Alps, then things of course become a bit more technical and elevation increases.

58:45 And so by then, again, a new through hiker would be more comfortable in that environment. That was always the intent.

58:51 Right.

58:51 Whether it worked or not, we had no idea. It turns out to make some changes based upon feedback. That was like yeah.

59:00 So so from my own experience, so I um I like to hike in the mountains. So and and when going uphills, this is my this is my element. I love going uphills and going downhills, and I I I love this varied um movement and you use different muscles. And whenever, so for example, um at the beginning, no, at the end of last year, we hiked in Australia, a 500-kilometer long trail, which over the course of 500 kilometers, it didn't even have an elevation gain of 1000 meters.

59:30 So basically it was pancake flat. And this was physically, this was one of the most demanding trails I ever hiked in my life, because having this constant monotonous flat or hiking on flat ground, this did something to my hamstrings and to my feet, and there was no variety and muscle usage. So having had this in mind, I was like, oh my god, yes, I can understand, and I can see that over the first course of the several hundred kilometers on the wolf trail, um, did the crew encourages or or gives new hikers um the time to grow into it and get into the flow of hiking, but this is physically demanding.

1:00:15 And uh once you hit the black forest, you're done because it's so flat. But this is only my personal, um, my personal uh perception of this. Um but I also wanted to get into who you're actually targeting with this trail because I I mean I'm um I have been hiking worldwide and I I'm part of a worldwide hiking community, and I know a lot of hikers in other countries.

1:00:40 And when I when I shared with my hiking buddies from from the US, for example, or from New Zealand, that there's uh a new interesting trail coming up in Europe, everyone was like, Yeah, that sounds amazing, but um I can't stay longer in Europe than 90 days. Um, and I think doing three and a half thousand kilometers roughly in 90 days, that's quite an endeavor.

1:01:02 You probably should run it. But um so so who who's your who's your audience? Who are you uh creating this trail for?

1:01:11 Yeah, so the the audience, as I mentioned before, broadly speaking, is is really anybody from your first time through hiker to your experience through hiker. And as I mentioned a few times, we have uh we will talk more about 2.0, the the next version of the trail.

1:01:24 Yeah, yeah, we get to this, yeah.

1:01:25 But the the intent was to make it challenging enough for your you know full-time through hiker, your experience through hiker, but also make it accessible. That was always the idea. Um, regarding locations, yeah. I mean, listen, it it's not easy uh for uh non-Europeans to hike the entire length of the trail.

1:01:47 Um, there's not much we can change about that because we wanted to sacrifice, we wanted to make sure that we delivered on on distance first. Uh, and that was quite important to us is to have a trail that was um, you know, in the category of the bigger, more traditional through hikes uh around the world, you know, the the 8, the AT and the PCT, for example.

1:02:06 So we wanted to kind of check that box. I can tell you that for the next round, the next version of the trail, there'll be uh a variation that allows for a shorter uh time period and also the longer time period. So I think for for the next version of the trail, uh we'll we'll have that problem solved.

1:02:23 You know, so for those non-Europeans have a limited time, um, they can come and enjoy uh a section of the trail too and still um really get the full Central European through hike experience.

1:02:35 Yeah. Oh, that's that's good to hear. I'm gonna share that with my hiking buddies, and then they have no excuse not to come hiking in Europe anymore. But um, let's let's come to uh how you called it like the Wolf Trail um 2.0. So um you you already mentioned that um um you probably made some mistakes in routing, routing it along the Baltic Sea coast and along flat grounds, and and during the course of the year, I mean you could you could tell when when following on social media that you did some rerouting and the athletes were scouting new um new routes specifically through the Alps and also through southern Germany.

1:03:12 Um so maybe I have several questions now, but let's start with the first question. So, how is the Wolf Trail 2.0 gonna look like? So Okay.

1:03:22 Let me quickly, before I answer that question, let me just also mention the fact that we're now in the second year. The the intent is to ensure that this trail lasts for many, many years in the future. You know, this is not something that um that we consider uh a marketing campaign. You know, the the idea is to create something for through hikers that that lives much beyond my tenure at the company, maybe lives beyond Jack Wolskin.

1:03:48 Hopefully not, but this is something that we really want to last a long time, right? Um, why are we doing that? Because we we really believe in the benefits, which we already discussed, you know, the the motivations, the emotional benefits, um, the the health benefits, all these things of being on the trail.

1:04:05 So the intent was to create something that excites again an experience through hiker, but also is is still accessible for your first timers. So that's what I think we delivered for 2.0 is is a trail that really delivers on that promise. How do I know that, or how do how do I feel more confident in this version?

1:04:26 Because this time around, as I said before, we quickly realized that the first version wasn't going to work. The athletes told us that, the threw hikers told us that quite quite fast. And so what we did at that point was we said, okay, then let's split up. You know, you hike this this section, you hike this this section, and let's build a new wolf trail together and use the next, in this case, four months to scout out the trails that you want to hike as a through hiker, that you think your communities that you think you know a first-time through hiker would also be interested in.

1:05:00 And so uh the trail shape itself will change quite significantly. Um it will look very, very different, but the intent behind it remains the same, which is to create, again, something accessible that's interesting, that's a bit more wild, definitely less pavement, less asphalt than the first version, uh, and something that truly is, I think, unique within the European kind of hiking landscape at the moment.

1:05:27 Can you already give away some regions where the trail is going to go through? Is the Baltic Sea coast still included?

1:05:34 It's not. Good. No offense to anybody there. It's a beautiful area, but it's maybe not uh maybe more for biking. Yes, exactly. Yeah, so um many of the same areas will still uh from from the first version will still be part of of the Wolf Trail. Um, and without you know, so basically I don't want to give up too much, not because it's a secret yet, just because all the information is coming soon.

1:05:58 So GPX try try. Even details such as resupply areas and sleeping arrangements, you know, huts and these types of things will be provided quite soon. But I can tell you that the goal is to basically start in the southern um region of Poland in the mountains there, and then kind of come down the border between Czech and Germany.

1:06:23 So it kind of comes down the you know, through actually not too far away from where I am now. We then drop down into Austria, of course. We we swing through Slovenia this time around, and then back up through Italy, Switzerland, uh before returning back to Germany. So it's kind of a big, you know, up like a U shape almost, but it's but it's um it's a very different trail in the sense of the shape, but very similar in regards to the intent and the hiker that I think will enjoy it.

1:06:58 I mean, the first version of the trail looked totally different. When you came up with the first version, and it was uh provided on the website of the trail and on social media. Um, to be honest, a lot of people in the through hiking communities, specifically in Germany or in the German-speaking countries, were kind of very hesitant to support the trail and kind of very suspicious.

1:07:24 What is a brand actually doing here? And um, why is a brand um creating a trail? What's the reason? There must be some different reason for it. Um and of course, a lot of people follow very closely what you guys were doing this year, and to be fair, I think it's it's a big, big endeavor to change a trail while it's actually tested and realize it's not working.

1:07:52 So athletes are testing it, you get the feedback it's not working, and you were changing it on the go. And within the course of the year, you are creating a new route, which is not just a little bit slightly off from the initial route, but it's basically a new route, but it's only going through the same countries, more or less.

1:08:12 Um, so to be fair, it is not easy to change something on the go while already being public with it, right? And with already having the hiking community informed about what's going on. Or what would you reply to a German hiking community or European hiking community who are saying stuff like, oh, what does Jack Wolfskin know about through hiking?

1:08:39 Or why are these guys creating suddenly a trail?

1:08:43 Yeah, so I think first it it's it's good to be skeptical. There's nothing wrong with with questioning, you know, um the reason for uh a trail or brand like Jack Wolfskin doing this. Um we expected that, and and honestly, I I appreciate that. Like we should be as consumers, we should be skeptical. There's not nothing wrong with that.

1:09:04 In fact, maybe more skepticism and more questions are needed sometimes. I think ultimately only only time will prove this is not a stunt, this is not a marketing campaign, right? And as I mentioned before, the intent really is to ensure that this trail lives far beyond me, far beyond even the brand itself.

1:09:24 This becomes a true icon. That might be too much of a word, but this becomes a true um, you know, this goes on to Mount Rushmore of through mics. That that's kind of um and I think you know, to answer the question, uh why we changed it, because of a couple of reasons. One, because the intent was always uh year one was trial, as I mentioned before.

1:09:48 And and two, if it was uh truly a, you know, if this was a business decision, we'd probably just try to make this go away and make it keep it quiet and then you know, and then maybe go on to something else. So I think it it in my mind, you know, it's an indicator of of the authenticity behind the motivation that we listened to the athletes and that we changed it in real time.

1:10:11 You know, this is not uh again intended for our own um kind of benefit. It's really designed because we heard from the community that there's a need for this. And the feedback from people that have joined us on the trail so far this year was you know, hey, we we appreciate uh one more exciting option uh to hike in in Europe.

1:10:32 And so we we should deliver on that. You know, it would be maybe the worst thing possible for for us to either stick to our guns and stick with the first version and not make any changes or to quietly make it go away. Um but we haven't done that because the intent is truly to give something back to the through our community and ensure this is a trail that's enjoyed for generations to come.

1:10:53 Yeah, and actually a long trail is a work in progress, and and nothing is nothing is set and fixed from from the very beginning. There's just always changes, and specifically in Europe, where there's so many different aspects that you would have to consider, um, like terrain, public land, private land, um forests that belong to someone, whatever.

1:11:18 So it's it's not that easy to actually create and um and mark a trail. And this is this is another aspect I wanted to ask you about because I mean the the picture perfect trail is like the AT or the PCT, and there's markers, and there's even this amazing new trail in Romania, the Via Transylvanica, that has a rock, like a stone column as a marker every single, I think, either every single kilometer or every single mile.

1:11:47 So it's very well marked. However, I also know about the hexatrack, which by the way is another very exciting trail in Europe that kind of came up over the course of the last years. Um it's not really marked in many areas. And I also know from from different contexts that it's not that easy to actually mark out a trail in Europe.

1:12:11 How are you going to do I call it tackle? Less, let's call it tackle. How are you going to tackle all these challenges of marking a trail, signage? Um, how about, or what about trail communities? Are you in contact with uh initiatives, trail communities, wander vereine in German, like the hiking clubs?

1:12:33 Um, so it's it's it it has to be, I think it really has to be a long-term project because otherwise it's not working. And all good long-distance trails are long-term projects. Um that's right. So, yeah.

1:12:47 Yeah, no, it's a great question. You know, these things take time. You know, the AT has been around since I believe 1947, the late, the late 1940s. You know, it just it takes a long time. And I think that also it's important to remember that you know trails come in all flavors, right? An example that came to mind as you were asking the question.

1:13:03 I'm exploring uh doing a trail in in Scotland next spring called Keep Wrath Trail. It's not marked at all, yeah. And so there's there's different varieties and different flavors of trails. Um we do want to mark the wolf trail though, to answer that question. And this will take time. You know, so what I can tell you is that we are currently working uh closely with local land associations, with local hiking clubs, as you mentioned, um, we're working through the logistics behind the infrastructure to support this from trail maintenance itself, but also for the marking and you know, resupplying and all the complexities that are required uh behind this.

1:13:41 Um it will not happen next year. Um it will it will start to happen next year, but I think over the next five and ten years, you know, as we continue to uh improve the relationships and give back, you know, to the communities that the trail runs through, then the trail will you know gradually, as all trails do, become more and more known and better and better marked.

1:14:05 Um, and it will just take time, take some time, yes. But it's something that we are deeply thinking about, we're working on. Um we're not gonna solve it in year one or year two, certainly, but by year five we're there.

1:14:16 Right. And what what about wild camping? Because I think this is this is a major question for a lot of hikers in in Europe because it is so densely populated. Of course, there's always, well, I shouldn't even say this in public, um, but there is um there's often times a way to make it work to stealth camp to pitch your tent, as long as you leave no trace and you follow all the leave no trace principles.

1:14:43 Um, but it's nothing that um, from my point of view, or let's put it differently, it's kind of a little bit controversial or difficult for let's say a brand like Czech Wolfskin to promote something like stealth camping, wild camping along a trail. Um, as it goes through densely populated areas. Um, how how are you going to handle this whole topic of where to actually pitch your tent, where to actually sleep when hiking the wolf trail?

1:15:17 Yeah, so so first I'd say uh again, I think we should consider this um at the moment at least, a feature and not a bug. So, in other words, um I really do believe um that there is some value in hut to hut, you know, hiking or or staying at huts. I'll give you one example. And I'll try and I'll answer the question in a minute.

1:15:38 But yeah, one of our North American two hikers came over here, and of course, they were spending most of their evenings in huts or with farmers or you know local uh local villagers who they asked if they could set the tent up on their uh in their garden. And the stories that they told um uh were not so much about the trail, but about the people they met at night, you know.

1:16:02 And I think again, it as maybe a non-European, if you approach it in that light to say, hey, listen, I'm going to ask a few people, I'm gonna ask some questions. More often than not, we we found out that you're gonna meet the best people, have the best stories along the way, staying in someone's garden or staying in their barn, you know, with the cows, right?

1:16:23 So that's the first thing. Um longer term, though. So what we've done with the trail this year is again, as I mentioned, we had the athletes scouting each section of the trail. And they didn't only give us GPS tracks, they gave us their notes, which included where they slept at night, who they spoke to, even.

1:16:41 Um, and so through the contacts that they've made and through our original contacts, working with local trail associations, hiking clubs, local governments, uh, we are again slowly building out an infrastructure that would support um camping. So more to come on this topic. Um, I think for the first time, you know, hikers next year, what you're going to find when we release everything is that we will be sharing that information.

1:17:07 So we'll be sharing some of the places of sleep that we're aware of that we've been told or that we've uh already confirmed are available. And over the years, uh, you know, of course, this network will grow and and and the availability will only increase. Um, I'd also add that we're going to be working with you know apps like Far Out, you know, so that uh you know through hikers can begin to provide notes and information to future uh hikers.

1:17:32 And again, the intent is that as the trail grows, then the network um will grow with it and the options for sleeping arrangements will improve.

1:17:41 Yeah. And uh thank you for for um sharing your ideas about this. And I think it's um it's absolutely worth to support. And I also see I personally see a lot of potential in the Wolf Trail in regards to um raising awareness for through hiking and long-distance hiking in a country such as Germany, which is traditionally only day hiking, or maybe a long weekend, like an overnighter.

1:18:11 And there is already a lot of stuff happening when it comes to hiking platforms in forests or in in national parks, um, where you can pitch your tent at a wooden platform and you get the coordinates uh when you when you book a ticket for the specific platform. So I think there is a lot of potential, but uh there need to be we as in the hiker community, we we need to convince a lot of people that it's something good and that we are not the people who are damaging shelters um somewhere next to a to a forest road where let's say stereotypically um teenagers meet Friday night and get drunk or and then they damage and whatever, leave leave some garbage.

1:19:00 We are not these people. Hikers don't leave their garbage. And as soon as I think as soon as people in deciding positions or in positions where they can decide on these kind of infrastructural improvements for a hiking community, when they understand what through hiking actually means, and that we are not the people thrashing shelters and we are not the people leaving garbage behind, um, it has a lot of potential to actually create way more hiking infrastructure, not just in specific areas as it is right now the case, but all over um all over the nation, the nation in Germany or all over Europe or Central Europe.

1:19:40 So I think it has a lot of potential.

1:19:42 Yeah, it's a it's a really really good point. I think one thing that we've learned this year uh is that we are educating more than we are selling. So what I mean is um we we had a press event last week, uh, and uh you know I wasn't surprised, but I don't think any of the people in that room had heard of Through Rike before, right?

1:20:05 Uh and so we're we believe in this activity. I mean, we I we've we've done it, right? We've lived it, we've we know the power of the through hike, to put it that way. And I think what we're trying to do as a brand is you know raise the level uh of knowledge across across not just the hiking community, because that's kind of preaching to the choir, but but also, as you said before, the press, the landowners, you know, the everyday non-hikers need to understand the real value of this and the reason behind it and and what makes it so special.

1:20:37 You know, so this is a this is a long journey for sure. Um, but I think we as a broader community, brands, hikers, everybody, um, land associations, hiking clubs, need to really come at this together and join forces to slowly but surely change the not change the narrative, but educate on what we're doing and why we're doing it.

1:20:57 Yeah, yeah. So also very uh we've been mentioning the word communities quite a lot already in our conversation, the almost 90 minutes that we've been talking to each other already. And um also Vanderbach and Kaffee has a huge community that um listens to my podcast episodes regularly, and also um offline.

1:21:20 I know about people meeting up and um they didn't know before, but they only met because of Wanderbach and Kaffee because they've been guests and or they follow each other on social media, yadda yadda yadda. So this whole aspect of community is is a growing, a growing aspect with or differently, is it it's growing and it becomes more and more important because we need connections.

1:21:42 And you also said earlier in our conversations, overall we're all humans, and humans need connection, and we are way too connected to our screens already. And social media on the one hand is not a good thing, but on the other hand, it is fantastic because it can connect people with specific interests.

1:22:01 Um, and these people want to eventually meet in person and also do go hiking together or meet up somewhere and talk about hiking. And and the the whole intention that stands behind my podcast is also to give people a platform to actually talk about their niche interest that is uh not necessarily widely found in their circle of friends or family.

1:22:25 So um, community is is an important aspect. And I already mentioned that uh this year you did five community events along the Wolf Trail. So, how did you perceive the community, the community of hikers that came together, but also you invited communities of um of hiking content creators? So, how do you perceive the community and how is the community perceiving the trail?

1:22:54 I think there's maybe no greater way to bond with somebody than to accomplish something hard and then celebrate that accomplishment around a fire at night at the start. That's I mean, really. Uh so what we did this year was as you said before, we we essentially asked over 300 at the end of the day, over 300 first-time through hikers to join us on the Wolf Trail in different different sections.

1:23:23 And we provided a guided experience for them that that allowed them to get a little taste of what through hiking is, uh, but do so in a way that they felt confident they would survive, not get lost, etc. Right.

1:23:36 Right.

1:23:36 And again, uh what it what we found was that this community is really, really special. Uh, and we we left every single event really rewarded uh just seeing the connections that are made. Uh as I said before, there's something really special about spending time on a trail with a stranger, you know, having a dinner on the fire, maybe having some marshmallows at night, and then leaving, you know, in three days with a lifetime friend.

1:24:09 And that's that wasn't our intent. You know, the intent wasn't to form friendships among people, but that's been a really incredible and rewarding outcome of what we did that last year is is you know, we're we're hearing from people that you know we've changed lives as a result of getting them in a tent under the stars for the first time.

1:24:30 And it's really special. So to answer the question, the community has been really amazing. And personally, and then you know, from as a as a team, I don't think that there's anything that could really be more rewarding than to create experiences that allow for that longer term.

1:24:47 Yeah, yeah.

1:24:47 So we'll be doing more of this in the future.

1:24:49 Oh, I'm looking forward to this. And maybe I can join in one more time again because I joined in at the Schwarzwald event, which was quite which was quite nice. It was a hot weekend. I remember this very uh very vividly, over 30 degrees, and it was kind of humid.

1:25:06 You know what, though? You you never talk about the trips where the weather was perfect, you know, like 15 years afterwards, you know, it's always the rain and the storm and the snow and the heat, you know? So it's true.

1:25:20 That is very true. That's almost a nice wrap-up sentence, Jason. Um, but I I don't wanna I don't wanna finish up our conversation without asking you for um how do you or where do you see the wolf trail in let's say three years?

1:25:44 I would like that it takes on a life of its own, uh, that it really becomes something that um is talked about as a exciting Central European option that that non-Europeans or Europeans alike um are interested in joining in. Um I would really like it to be at the point where we as a brand aren't supporting it even in terms of like the face of the trail.

1:26:14 It really needs to take on, and it will, I believe, it's its own personality, right? Its own culture to go back to our original conversation. And that it's really become something that is um unique and special and and appreciated within the the greater hiking community.

1:26:32 Oh well, Jason. Um I I'd say let's call it a day, let's call it a conversation. I really enjoyed um listening to what you had to share about uh the attention behind the wolf trail, about of course your own personal outdoors experience in your love and passion for the outdoors that you could really feel.

1:26:52 Um and I'm I'm absolutely looking forward to what uh 2027 holds for the wolf trail, and I'm looking forward to to see it evolving. And of course, I wish you best of luck with the whole big project.

1:27:04 It was great talking to you. Thank you very much for the time. Appreciate it.

1:27:08 Thank you. Well, I really enjoyed this conversation, and I hope I didn't promise too much at the beginning. I liked it specifically as it had quite some layers to it, and it was super interesting to get to know the marketing mind behind the global brand to converse about what motivates the love for the outdoors and to look into why a big brand creates a couple thousand kilometers trail through Europe.

1:27:35 There's probably going to be something amazing to come next year. Anyway, if you enjoyed today's show, please leave a five-star rating in the podcast app of your choice. Ideally, click the follow button if you want to hear more about long distance hiking, mostly in German though. However, from time to time there might be more English speaking episodes with interesting guests.

1:27:57 But for now, I'm saying thanks for listening, take good care, and as always, happy trails, yours truly, Mareike.