Love After Lockup: Why Michael and Justine Took Their Marriage to Relationship Rehab

This episode deals with the topics of depression and suicide. If you or someone you know is suffering, please call the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline by dialing 988.

Welcome back to I Do Part Two. I am one of your hosts, Brian Austin Green, and today I'm chatting with some of the stars of maybe one of, honestly, the most addictive, raw, and vulnerable TV shows that I've seen in a long time. From WeTV's Love After Lockup, Relationship Rehab, please help me in welcoming Michael, Justine, and Dr. Ish. Hey, how's it going? Thank you for having us.

Thanks for having us, man.

First off, it is, I've I've only seen a few episodes now of the show because episode three is airing. I think it's so refreshing what you guys are doing. I don't think you realize the impact that you can have on other people that are like, I don't know what to do. Our relationship is at a dead end. I don't know how to repair this. And then they see you two coming from the situations and the circumstances that you came from really sitting down and finding the tools and the ways through it and navigating it for people to watch and then mirror. It's, we always talk about it. Like I, you know, I'm leading by example.

I applaud you guys for, for doing that. I mean, it's a, it's a really big step. I, I can't wait to get into sort of the, the, the, the run of it and the experience of it. And oh my God, does it, we were just talking about like, it's, it's a never ending process. Like really getting in and therapy and it never ends. It's just continually growing. Like I'll get to a point where I go, okay, I'm good.

I'm like, I'm feeling good about everything. Cut to some shit slaps me in the face. And I'm like, oh, this is the worst.

It's always happening, right?

It's always life-ending. It's never not happening.

Always life-ending.

It's always.

I just lost my sister a couple of weeks ago.

Oh my God, I'm sorry.

I mean, who was going to tell me that at the premiere- You know, when the show is premiering, the next day I'm basically cremating my sister.

She was 15, man. She was young.

You know, so this is what I'm talking about when it never ends, right? So we were very happy for that date.

Very happy.

But now, like, in my happiness, there's a sadness etched that date. And I was like, damn, I remember that date is when. But I also remember that the day before that we aired on Relationship Rehab. So that's where it never ends because life just keeps lifing.

What's really interesting about traumas and things too is that when you're in them, they're so hard. I always tell people that when you're in the middle of something, it's the worst. While I'm in something, I'm looking at it going, what good is going to come? And a month down the line, that was an absolute catalyst for this to happen in my life. And if that hadn't have happened, I wouldn't be where I am now. So when people ask me if I could go back and change anything in my life, nothing. I change absolutely nothing because there's that butterfly effect to me of like, man, if I change something, am I still going to be who I am now? And I like who I am now. Right.

Exactly. You see what you said right there? You like who you are.

Yeah.

You don't like who people think you are. You like who you are.

Because it doesn't matter. That's all just noise. Right. And I spend my days trying to cut out as much of the noise as possible. the comments and the criticisms and the, because the people that are criticizing me and commenting, they don't know me. Right.

Exactly.

Actually commenting on me.

Right.

You're commenting on some version of who you think I am. That's going to be bothered by what you're saying.

Exactly.

Whereas if I look at what you're saying and I laugh and I go, that's some funny shit. Right. Then all of a sudden it's like, yeah, it's, I'm not involved actually in that at all. That is, those are funny words. Right. Yeah.

You detach yourself from the persona and, I think that's where we excel. Being on television and stuff like that, we still give them us. We're not really trying to portray these people who are perfect.

No, this is how it works for us.

I don't know how it's working in everyone else's homes, but if something we do can inspire or change a trajectory or something, there's some women right now listening to my wife's story and saying, I'm leaving this dude.

There's people right there saying that. You gave me the strength to lead.

Yeah. I've gotten a lot of women.

Yeah. I've spoken about random things on like Instagram and stuff where people reach out to me after and they go, man, I so needed to hear these words from somebody today. Right. And you never know. You know, I don't live for them. I'm not making these choices for them. I'm making them for me. Hoping that, again, I lead by example, that people listen to what I'm saying and they watch what I'm saying and they go, man, I'm going through the exact same thing that he's talking about right now. So I don't feel alone in it because none of us are alone in it. Marriage, what you guys are going through and have gone through, everybody goes through and has gone through. It's the only difference between you and somebody

else is how you handle it. compared to somebody else. Some people, it gets hard and they run. They go, man, I'm just going to cut my losses on this and I'm out.

I think going into this rehab show, we knew that we were not leaving separately, that we were using this rehab show as a way to gain tools.

Did you guys talk about that, though, before you even started? We did. You sat down with each other and you were like, listen, if we're going to do this... We're going to see it all the way through.

We're going to gain tools to become better parents, to become better in our marriage. You know, this isn't to find out if we're compatible or not, if we want to stay together.

You know, we're staying. We're not going for the fucking check.

Right.

Like, we're not going to tarnish or let these people get a deep dive into our relationship if we're not going to put.

It out there for real.

Right. Right. Yeah.

Because, I mean, then we put out this persona and that's the narrative you're running with.

If you guys didn't relate to that, which they wouldn't have. Because, you know. Authenticity is key and people are going to see through that.

I think what gave us the push to do it was that we both knew that in our relationship.

It wasn't perfect. Like, yo, we're not perfect.

We got issues. Let's go see what we can do. Because, you know what I mean? To sit down and be like, well, ain't nothing wrong with me. Everything's wrong with you. You can't get a person like that at therapy.

And also, you know, on previous seasons that we've done, we've gotten such feedback.

Oh, like our relationship is completely perfect.

And I was actually excited to highlight some of our human moments. And like, no, we were just like everybody else. We just have a little different of a platform and job, you know?

So here we are. Here's our truths. And we're going to put it out there.

Just to nerd out really quick, end of episode one, when that whole moment played of like, you know, cross the line if you're ready to go and you stood back a little bit, was that something that the producers, they decided, no, that was.

That was really.

No, I turned around and he was the only one still behind the line.

Truth.

I was having so much anxiety at that moment because I knew I would, like, it was psychological. You see, everybody there thought they just stepped across the line. I knew what he was saying was, you step across that.

Line, you're in.

You're in. Right.

You feel me?

And that's what made me like, damn, if I cross this line and then I leave, I'm going to look stupid.

But if I leave now, I didn't cross the line.

Right. Except you guys had the conversation at home before you even got there.

I'm like, let's do it.

No, I was surprised to see him behind the line.

I thought he was going to be right up there.

He was on the trip. He got in the van.

I thought he was in. The bag was packed. And Dr.

Hitch was like, Michael. I was like, fuck, this is real. That's when it hit me, because we prepared for it all at home.

You also talked, though, about, both of you did, the fact that you, as soon as someone is telling you what to do, or that you have an aversion to that, that right away... you it like it just pisses you off and you kind of go into your own space and you just want to say like fuck the system and you want to you want to run it the way you do.

Well i mean coming from prison we were it's reform and it's everything is controlled right so you know unfortunately you being a good person in prison doesn't matter because you're just bunched in right the guards are going to treat you right you know yeah so dealing with that for so many years right it was like damn like I can't do nothing.

I can't say anything. I just got to take it, take it, take it. Now I'm home. I'm not going to deal with that shit.

Right.

I'm not going to the hole for telling you to fuck off. Like I've dealt with the oppression and the shit for so long. And like I said, not faulting or going into race. What I'm saying is in the circumstances we were in, we're all treated the same.

You know what I mean? So it didn't matter if I was a rapper.

Have you felt like it's a tough like line though to... So you kind of form that when you're in and then all of a sudden you're out and you're like, okay, now I don't have to do that anymore. So do you swing to the far extreme? And then you have to like find the middle ground where you go, okay, I'm going to be more of a normal human being out here and I'm not going to be so abrasive with this.

That's exactly what happened.

Okay.

You saw, I came home, I swung all the way to the left.

Yeah, of course.

And that's where we were. I was all the way to the left. I just, I didn't know, you know what I mean?

And just like, My manager and I, we had a conversation and we were talking.

And he was like, sometimes you got to be vulnerable with your woman and tell her that you're scared so she can feel like, okay, well, I'm not alone in this or whatever. But as men, we're taught not to do that because it looks weak. You know, she throws it in my face.

That's so shitty that men are like that. I know, it is. Like, I don't, man, that's the last thing I want to teach my kids. Like, I want to break that chain now. You guys have nine. Like, you can break that chain.

We're breaking chains.

I mean, it was hard because when he came home, you know, it was such a transition for him. And he was so used to everything being tough and you can't cry and you can't this and you can't that. And two of the children, which are my biological children, have died. grown up with just mom. So that's not what I was showing them. That's not, me you know that's the dad's job but you know with his absence I can only do what I can so it's been a transition for the kids to be like wait hold on a second I can't cry anymore I can't you know and kind of have to toughen up in some areas and I feel like now after the rehab program we found a middle ground so I feel like the kids and Michael like we're getting to a better place

and a better understanding of.

Things and that's amazing it was the kids and.

Mike and myself it's not just one of us working he helped and the program helped and I think.

Applying.

Because it was about applying. Because you can have all the knowledge in the world. If you don't apply it, you don't have anything.

Walk the walk, man. I always tell people, it's easy to talk the talk. It's easy to read the books. It's easy to hear what's PC, what you're supposed to say. And people go, ooh, you're so evolved. And it's like, man, are you walking the walk? Because I could have sworn you walked outside and you tripped someone going down the stairs.

You never said, excuse me for it. Are you actually doing it? Or are you just... It's like... Well, goodwill hunting, that whole thing of like, you know, that whole thing of like, you know, yeah, you've read all the books.

We were literally just talking about it, right?

Taking it in as one thing, but being able to put it into practice in your life when you show up, that's when it counts, you know? And that's the part that takes courage. Because now you're doing something different. You're showing up as somebody new. And I'm used to, I know how to fit into my life in the other way.

But if I got to.

Do it this way now, what does that mean, right? And who else has to change around me?

Right?

Because now I got to figure out a new way to show up.

How, what was the pressure like for you showing up in this?

Because I, so therapy is.

Really like, it's, it's so unique to each person. And, you know, I think it's really smart for people to go out and meet with a few different therapists until you find somebody that is really, that really fits you. So for you to show up and what was it?

Six couples, seven couples, Five couples, 10 people.

That's a huge responsibility that you're taking on.

It is.

Did that keep you up at night?

Many nights.

It did.

Okay.

But that's the human side of it.

That's the human side of it. At the end of the day, I'm a psychiatrist. I want to show up and do the job well. I want to make sure that when you guys leave there, you've got something to take back home with you that's.

Going to make a difference.

And so in order for me to do that well, I got to know who you are. And so I can watch all the interviews. I can look at all the tape and I can get an idea. And I think I know. I think I know.

Right.

But there's nothing like being.

In the room with the people, seeing the.

Thing and seeing how. the thing affects each one of you.

Seeing how your blood boils instantly as soon as he says this and you see the triggers because you don't get all those.

So the pressure is huge because these are very unique relationships, right?

Relationships are hard. Let alone that it started this way. Relationships are hard.

Relationships with somebody who's been impacted by justice is even harder because now we've got so many other things we've got to disconnect.

The judgment, the shame, the guilt.

Re-entry and all of those things we've got to, all those conversations we've got to have.

And what struck me the most was when we.

Got there and after you guys started sharing and doing all your things, right, they were telling each other things there in rehab.

They never told each other before in life.

You said that before, right?

Yeah.

Communication is interesting, right? Like you, there's a part of you that feels like, oh, don't talk about that because that's embarrassing. That is you prejudge it. And so you don't want to share it. But as soon as you do share it, all of a sudden it just goes, and it's gone. Right.

Because you've carried, you've carried a notation about the belief. Yeah.

Right.

What they're going to, the judgment of yourself.

Yeah.

Right. Because you're still stuck in that thing of like, it's way more important how I'm perceived than how I perceive myself.

That's right.

So you don't want to speak on those things. And literally I tell people like, as soon as you do, as soon as you talk about all of it, it's such a huge weight off your chest. And you can look at each other differently and breathe differently and connect differently. Like it is, I find that with my fiance. Sometimes when we're going through something and then we just sort of talk all of it out, we look each other in the eyes in a different way than we did before because you don't have the same anger and the same things that you haven't said and you're not harboring all of these things that you don't want to say because, oh, she's never going to understand or so why am I even going to share them? It's like you've got to

give people the opportunity to prove you wrong. Exactly.

You get to the whole person.

Yeah.

And you get to realize that there's a lot going on in them that has nothing to do with me.

Exactly. There's a lot going on in them or that they are triggering for you that has nothing to do with them. Exactly.

Yes.

It might be a person in the group that says something. Yeah. You've been good all day. The group, they mention something that's traumatic to you, your attitude changes.

Yep.

It's what it is, you know?

It's totally what it is.

The whole time I was there, I'm like, do they know that they're bringing all these convicts?

Right. Right. Right. Yeah.

I'm ninja rolling off the bed.

He was shadowboxing.

Before he went.

I'm like, why are we doing this?

Really? No kidding.

And I was like, Mike, I.

Don't think we need to shadowbox. I think we're going to be fine.

And then you brought a pole, right?

You guys had.

A completely different set of tools.

That's what makes us special, right?

Because he's shadowboxing and I'm thinking about bringing the pole.

It's a track, man. I always tell people, I would not want to be with me because I'll bore the shit out of myself. Like I am not that special that I would want to just be with me all day long. So I want somebody that's not me at all, you know.

That I get along with.

But it's funny you mentioned that. So that was part of the pressure going into it.

I'm like, man, these guys are going to get in here and everybody's just, everybody's going to go full alpha on me.

Of course.

Yeah.

I was like, Michael and Marcelino.

I'm going to be having like a face off and a stand down every day.

Michael and Marcelino are going to get it first and then it's going to just spread out from there. And once that happens, I think I'm going to lose the group. And so the biggest thing for me was, how do I get as quickly as possible underneath that part? So you guys can see that there may be a little something more here.

Were you alone in doing that? Or did you have people?

No, he was alone, like, filming.

Right. Was there a squad out on the side? We got snipers up in the trees.

There were people around.

Okay.

It wasn't close enough to protect Dr.

Izz. No, they weren't.

In the room, it would have been me and my sneakers running as fast as possible to security. But the team got really, really lucky with a super talented group of folks in terms of producers who got it. And they're like, listen, no, we, these folks, we had been talking about doing something like this with these guys for years, for years.

So is this a concept that you kind of came up with?

It was. And the issue was- Did you guys know that?

No.

We've been talking about this.

And the, you know, the producers in the field who just have been with you guys from day one, listen, you don't understand.

These aren't, these aren't cast members. These are like family.

And if we're going to do something this real- We got to make sure, number one, that you're the guy. And we got to make sure, number two, that they're going to be okay.

And they're going to come out better than this.

Make sure that it works on some level.

And so everybody in production, you know, sometimes you get on reality shows and it gets to be cast versus production and everybody's, but this wasn't that. Production's like, listen, tell us what you need to make them okay. And they were like, and we got your back.

I think there's a difference between some reality shows. Like I... I've done a couple where they're more like a documentary series. There's a crew that follows you around, but there's no producer going, hey, you want a tea.

Or you want a coffee in between?

They let the cameras roll. They let the cameras roll.

So you lose a sense of them being there and you're just living and you're doing it.

You're just living.

You're just being you.

And there's nothing I need you guys to do.

Listen, while we were there, I think production stepped in twice.

In the 90s. Or the eight days.

Yeah.

Twice. To kind of like, because we were going off. Like we were having too much fun. Hey, hey everyone. Back to.

Right.

Yeah. And that's.

Yeah. How at odds were you two when you first started?

Oh my God. When we first started the show.

When you first started the show.

Well, what people don't know is that before we actually got to the ranch, we were secluded in a hotel together for two days and we weren't allowed to.

Leave the room. So you were already driving each other crazy. They did that. did. I swear they did it on purpose because they wanted- Who, us?

No. Yeah, y'all knew what she was doing.

Right. We were already in the room.

That hotel and pudding just really piss them off yeah make.

Sure that there's ants around and there's mosquitoes that can get in and make.

The wi-fi extra slow.

For sure yeah we were just stuck there so we were already going at it so it's funny when you see us come out and get into the van with the pole and stuff we're happy oh no we were just tearing each other's heads off and said okay let's work here we go but um.

Yeah it was just it was an interesting experience so it was.

Nine days total yeah And so I know that it's only episode three coming on, but you guys are done. You're long done with this process. Yeah. How do you, how do you guys feel with each other now?

Great question.

Like how, because that's.

Where we are today.

Well, it's just, there's a lot to it. It's like, it's not, I always tell people, I feel like it's not a, a good healthy relationship doesn't necessarily mean that we just sit around and we just, we're kumbaya all the time. We don't argue and we don't, the healthy relationships to me are the ones that are passionate, that argue, but that play, they fight by certain rules. They have rules of like not being venomous, not saying things that you can't take back because you can forgive someone, but you can't ever forget. And if someone says enough things where you're like, man, I, I cannot get those words out of my head. I get that you were pissed off and you just said those because you were mad, but there's gotta be something to them for you to

pick those specific words or they, so there's, there are finding rules to argue. And then there's always the concept of, to me, arguing to get through, to get to the next stage.

A point, like to create something from the argument.

Like a change.

Right, because you're not in it to win. Nobody wins. The win is literally when you guys both step back and you go, let's just agree to disagree and move on with this one. That's the win. Because otherwise, if you're like, I won, he's like, fuck you for winning.

You create a fictitious competition when we're a team. And I think you said it the best when you were like, you know.

Our communication stems from all the time that I was incarcerated and we just had the phone. We learned how to kind of communicate with each other and fight with love too. Understand that, yeah, I'm upset at the moment, but yo, you're my world. You are the reason that I'm still here. You saved my life. I look at you and I put you on a pedestal that you don't even know. I don't say it enough to you because I don't want you to gain this control and think that you got me wrapped around your finger when I'm just trying to be real vulnerable with you about how I feel about you, right? As men, that shit is hard to tell a woman that because you know you think.

Man, I let her know how much I meant to her. Shit, I'm underneath her fingerprint.

Like they're going to use it against you. Not if she's a good one.

Start taking it for granted.

But I feel like women would feel like that.

Not if she's a good one, man.

Correct.

It's the good ones that sit back and they go, I feel the same way. Like, let's do this together.

Right.

I'm not going to take advantage of the fact that I mean so much to you because you mean just as much to me. So we're now a team. Like you tell me anything, I tell you anything. We never, ever hold it against each other. It's like, it's never for that purpose. It's literally just to know as much about each other as we can to help each other with this. Because it makes it so much easier. Power in numbers. It makes it so much easier to go through tough shit when you've got someone next to you that's like, I got you. Yeah, this is fucking hard.

I got you. It's dark.

It's so dark.

But if you.

Got someone with you, it's a little more comfort.

It is.

Right? So, yeah, I think, you know what?

To be completely transparent, I think we got to the point in our relationship where we were just, like, we were so disconnected. We weren't even communicating with our love languages. You see, before I even came home, I learned my wife's signs, her numerology, her love language, everything.

I wanted to know this woman in and out.

So in our relationship, I knew that words of affirmation is, her love language is big. So if I can use that against her, because she's using my love language, which is physical touch against me, then we got a war.

So we created a war at home. That's all we were doing.

I think that that's kind of where maybe the miscommunication started to stem from.

You know what I mean?

Exactly.

It's hard to sometimes navigate the other person's love language when you don't feel like it's being reciprocated. So now we're in a battle that has no win zone.

You know what I mean?

Until.

We make some tough decisions, I feel like. And that's kind of where we decided that doing the therapy was the right thing to do. Because we weren't... We've talked about it before. He never wanted to do it for his own reasons. But I managed to get him all the way out to California and get him on that van.

Got him to the ranch.

And get there.

Got him to the ranch.

That's a good one.

It's a good one.

Good for you. We get each other through.

Across a lot of lines. Like, you know what I mean?

It's not just me pulling you up over the line. You do it for me as well. You guys are planning a... a lifetime, you're going to have to walk across that line a thousand more times. A thousand more. Like, do you do it together with someone else that you know isn't judging you for the mistakes or the things you learn or the things that you're kind of stuck on?

Or do you just jump out as soon as it gets hard and then you just keep reliving that same line with a new person? Like, it's tough, man. I always feel like I would rather... like may have to talk about everything and make up a thousand times with you and start over with someone else.

We feel that way.

I think love languages are a weird one because I hear that all the time. They can get tricky. I think people sometimes make the mistake in love languages of learning what their love language is and then assuming, okay, then that's what I give also. They get confused of, oh, your love language is this, so I need to do your love language. You need to do my love language.

That's how we stay in line. Right.

Everybody's got to tell.

But everybody does their own love language. And it's like, who are you? Who are you doing it for?

Right.

Solo relationship.

The trick is the way you give it is usually the way you like to receive it. And so that's the clue for your partner. OK, they use a lot of words and they talk a lot.

Maybe that's.

And so the light bulb should go off. OK, maybe that's what I should do for them. But and you can have more than one.

You can have three. You can have all five. And they can change. That was last week. Let me update you on the news. You got to download the news.

Right, you know what's feeling great this week? Right, exactly.

Because we're constantly changing. For sure.

Three years from now, she's going to like or dislike things that she likes now or dislikes now.

Same thing for me. I might have thought that spending money on this is frivolous, but hey.

I got it now. I can say it. You're going to change with experiences, with just life, with friends, with things around you in your world. You've got to be willing to go with that.

And don't overlook the easy answer.

If you don't know what your partner's love language is, you can do a magic thing.

You can ask. You can ask.

You can look at your partner and say, how many couples don't do this? Look at her and say, Are you happy? Not necessarily with me.

Right. Just in general. How's your day been? What's going on in your life? What's going on in your life?

Check in with me.

Most of us will not ask because we're going to infer that if they say no, then I have something to do with that.

And it doesn't have to have anything to do with you. But just check in.

Are you happy? How's it going?

Life has been interesting. How's it going for you? And then give them the space to say all of it.

Without taking it personally.

That no.

It's just like a dagger. It's like a notification for you. Like you ain't doing what you're supposed to do. Sometimes you can't be the reason.

You can't take it personal. You can't.

I can't be the reason why you're not happy all the time.

Right. Right. For sure. Right.

So you're happy when we're good, but if any.

Part that I played in it, please tell me because I would never in a million years want to do that. But you also need to dig in a little bit and figure out maybe what's happening in your world.

Continuous accountability for both of us.

Like, we would argue and I would tell her, like, yo, stop fucking, like, grouping me in with the shit you've been through.

This is a jail language.

That was a big thing for you. That was a big thing for you in the rehab also.

I mean, that's not how you speak to a woman that you love, you know, delicately. Listen, you know, I understand you've been through certain things with certain people. And the reason why we're together is to overcome those things. But if you don't allow me to. And you keep putting me in this box where I don't belong. We're not going to work. You're not going to let me show you my potential because you keep thinking that there's a letdown somewhere somehow.

It's too good to be true. I can't be happy. You can't really just be with me.

I mean, how not?

Wait, but keep going. But keep going.

Because those are the things that have to do with you when none of that has to do with you. It's got to do with what does she think she deserves.

Right?

We never get the love we want. We get the love we think we deserve.

That's true.

I talk about it all the time. I talk about red flags. Because you start to collect them through life. Things to look out for that, oh, I'm never going to go through that again because now I have that experience. I'm just going to put that in my pocket. So when something comes up that reminds me of that, I'm ready for it. Except then if I personally looked back on my life, one of my greatest relationships... Was my first one because I had no red flags.

Ah, look at that.

I was just in it. Yeah. I just loved.

Yeah.

I was like, wow, this feels amazing. Yeah. I'm just going to keep doing this. And then all of a sudden I got hurt and then it was like, pfft. Yep. Cool. One red flag.

You got it.

So the problem I genuinely feel is that you then start carrying those red flags into all the other relationships in your life with people that don't deserve them. They didn't create them.

You didn't put them there and you missed out on the moments.

Well, and you rob from them the opportunity to be something different because you're always looking out for, I've got to make sure that this red flag doesn't happen. So don't, you know, keep things at a bit of a distance just so I can make sure that I'm protecting myself.

Preparing for something that really isn't even there.

You're just not giving her then an opportunity to be different. Right. She's unfortunately having to live within the confines of what you've experienced.

Of what you deem happy. Yeah. What you deem happy.

Because anything outside of that doesn't make sense because it's just pertaining on your happiness.

Right.

And I think we've gotten to the point where we take each other's considerations into account. And we always make decisions together.

When I first came home, it was hard for me.

I was doing everything alone because that's what I was used to. And there, before I went to jail, I was always the person doing. So I didn't have to talk to nobody about nothing. I wasn't married before either, right?

But it made it hard for our relationship, though.

But I'm making all these decisions thinking like, yo, baby, look, I got this.

Correct me if I'm wrong, too. Like, when you're in prison... a lot of the decisions are made for you. Like you are, it's a very controlled situation to be in. So you get out and then you're like, man, I'm going to make all these decisions on my own. Nobody's going to tell me what to do.

You go from being able to make three decisions per day versus coming home the next day.

Now you've got to make 200. And it's super overwhelming.

And you don't know how, but you're like, man, I got to do it. I'm in it now.

But a lot of the times with these relationships when you're incarcerated, a lot of the times the girls that are on the outside are doing a lot of the busy work and the day-to-day work for the men that are in there. So he may not have been making decisions for himself while he was in there, but he was making a lot of decisions for me and what we were doing with our life at the moment.

And everything went through Michael.

How long were you guys together before?

Three and a half years before he came home.

Yeah, but you see, look, like she said, everything was through me. Yeah, it was.

But 11 months later, we were in Vegas in a half a million dollar home on a third season of reality TV.

I'm like, look, I mean, this is what we were preparing for.

I think it just shows the dynamics of how relationships can be why someone is incarcerated.

Yeah, she took direction. She trusted me.

Yeah.

You know, hey, go get these credit cards, you know, uh. They're secure now. Soon they'll become, your credit's going to be good. Her credit's perfect. We built that shit, man. And we did it together. And she, exactly.

She is the reason why I'm here. I'm able to speak today, man. And I know that. You know, I know that.

And that's why I keep her up there because I really do believe that she saved my life because before meeting her, I wasn't coming out with the same mindset.

That's just a huge thing to say.

She made me fall in love. She made me feel something I didn't feel for all this.

We don't have control of life. We have control of who we choose to be while we're living it. So it's like as conscious as we can live in every moment and go, who do I want to be right now? Not who am I based on my childhood and incarceration and all like, who do I want to be now? Because now you're out, you're out, you have kids and you guys are married and you want to have a successful life. So it's like, man, I, We make the choices then to stay on that path. And if it gets hard, share that it's fucking hard.

Right. Right.

Because that relatability is what the world needs. See, the social media society has tainted everyone's vision.

Yeah.

And say, if you're not perfect, you're not good enough.

Yes.

And I think people need to see more people coming out and saying, hey, we're not perfect either.

I know you think we are, but we're not. Because when you pull that veil, when you show that, when you reveal that, People will look at you and say, hey, look, we're going through the same shit.

Wait, yeah, you got to show that you are happily, like, you know, fucking navigating all of it. And that it's a hard point right now, but you're still in it and happy. And like, you're a human being.

Happily human.

That's what people respond to. They go, oh man, that's so refreshing. Because I felt like I was the only one dealing with something. That's the number one. Everyone feels like they're the only one in the world.

Everybody feels alone and that's one of the cool things about when we got the couples to the ranch man and after about the third or fourth day I walked in early and I just kind of sat back and before I had I was going to engage them about something we're going to pull them into another exercise and do the thing but when I walked in everybody was chatting laughing and it looked like they were being friends you know and it hit me I was like oh my god They're in a room for the first time where everybody gets it.

There's no judgment. There's no shame.

Imagine you're 18 years old. You go to Thanksgiving dinner and you.

Tell your mom, hey, mom, you know what? I met the perfect girl. I mean, she is amazing. Where is she? I want to meet her. Well, she'll be home in two years.

Right?

Right, yeah. Now, what's the rest of that?

Just give it a little time.

I'm working on it, though.

The shame, the judgment, the ridicule, all the reasons why it's going to fail. Everything that comes after that and everywhere you go, that's what you get. But when we got you guys there, you're in a room with everybody who's like, We get it. We understand how you got there.

Hey guys, hold on a second. Can we put a pin in this? Because I have so much more to talk to you all about, but we're making 10 episodes out of this conversation. So let's just put a pin in this now and then we'll come back to this for the next one. Cool?

Love After Lockup: Why Michael and Justine Took Their Marriage to Relationship Rehab

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