Looking for Joy in All the Right Places with Dr. Kelly McGonigal

You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Gerber. Welcome to I Choose Me. One thing I hear from you all again and again is that you're just trying to find happiness in your life and ways within the inevitable chaos of life to put yourself first. My guest, Dr. Kelly McGonigal, believes that. that you can do just this by risking joy. What does that even mean, you ask? Well, we're about to find out. Let's dive in with Dr.

Kelly McGonigal.

Your book, Joy is a Risk, worth taking is out.

Congratulations.

Thank you. Why is joy a risk? You know, for a lot of people, when they feel good, joy is that feeling of being uplifted. by something that connects you to what makes life worth living. And for a lot of people, when they start to feel good in that way, good about themselves, good about life, feeling hopeful or feeling close to others, they can start to feel unsafe or scared or even a little bit guilty. Oh man.

The being happy guilt.

Yeah.

Like maybe who am I to be happy? Will this last? Um, What happens when something goes wrong? Should my attention be on avoiding problems rather than savoring this moment? And so when that emotion arises, sometimes rather than letting ourselves really savor it and understand what it means and appreciate the good moment, we can push that feeling down or push it away to try to protect ourselves.

From a letdown or disappointment.

Yeah. Or the feelings of guilt that come up. We just don't, that feels uncomfortable. And so we think, well, I'm just going to put my attention on something else. Now I'm going to help someone else, or I'm going to take care of the next thing on my to-do list.

I felt, I felt that before the guilt of being happy, having joy in my life when others don't.

Yeah. And sometimes we feel like the, the appropriate thing to do when other people are struggling is is to be in solidarity with their pain or with their suffering. To be a good person means to really put our attention on what's wrong. The way that I think about it, what people want, even when life is difficult, are these moments of joy, when we feel hopeful or close to others or excited about life. And so in some ways, when we get the chance to appreciate life in that way, it's so important to allow ourselves to do that because It's actually what humans crave. Yep. It's so true. Okay.

I have a listener who is going through the ringer, grief, heartbreak, burnout, just a really difficult season. And you are the perfect person to help her begin letting joy back in. So if you wouldn't mind, let's hear from our friend, Laura.

Hi, my name is Laura McNamara. I've had a lot of things going on and I'm trying to just figure out my new normal. I'm trying to figure out how to put myself first. I'm a special needs mom. My son is 20 and I got divorced earlier this year. And then my mom moved in with me a couple of years ago. She had ovarian cancer and then she passed away a little over a year ago. So, you know, it's just been a lot. And I'm struggling to get to me.

Laura, first of all, I'm really proud of you for taking the time to call in. That right there is a definitive I choose me moment. So give yourself a pat on the back for reaching out because that's very important to step into asking others for help as you continue this new life ahead of you.

And wow. Wow.

Yeah, lady, you've been through an extraordinary amount of carrying things on your shoulders for a very long time.

Dr.

Kelly, what can you recommend for Laura?

Yeah. I also, you know, I, I also want to acknowledge even making that call is saying that joy is possible. And so just starting from that, even with everything that you have been going through, you are capable of joy and you deserve joy. And, and, I'm in a very similar phase of my life to dealing with many of the same things, actually. And what I have found is that you start to look for the small uplifts in everyday life. I always say lower your threshold for joy.

Sometimes we're waiting for that moment where it feels like everything in life is going perfect, that there are no problems anymore. You're not worried about anything else. There's nothing going wrong in your body. And then that will be the moment where we can say we're happy. But joy often arises in these very small moments and you realize you're smiling or you're laughing or you're feeling close to someone or you're feeling good about something that you did.

And that makes you feel like, oh, I matter. What I do matters. Maybe you're just enjoying something wonderful or beautiful in the world. And that brings you a moment of peace to look for those moments that are already present in your life and to give yourself permission to savor it, to take in that good thing and And we know that when you give yourself permission to just take in those small moments, it has a bigger effect than most people recognize. A lot of people think when life is difficult, you need something so good, so amazing in your life that's going to somehow balance out all the things you've been through or all the things you're dealing with. Like the good stuff doesn't really count or

can't really contribute to your well-being until it's bigger than the problems or the pain you've been through. And what's so amazing about joy as a human capacity we have is that one moment of laughing with someone you love or one moment of recognizing that, you know, somebody thanked you for helping them or you see something beautiful in nature and you feel kind of inspired by life. Those moments carry more weight than you expect.

Yeah.

It's like a cumulative effect.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's really is an antidote for some of the things you mentioned like burnout, you These are states that take a real toll, not just on our mental well-being, but also on our physical well-being. And every moment of joy is like an antidote to that in your body. That moment where you laugh with someone, that moment where you're appreciating something beautiful, it is a boost for your immune system. It can calm your heart and it's good for your heart health. It can change what's happening in your brain in a way that that lets you like exhale for a moment and feel less overwhelmed.

Oh my, I think Laura needs an exhale moment.

Yeah.

Also grace for yourself, for what you're going through, all the things that you are carrying.

I mean, it's a lot.

I mean, navigating just the 20 year journey of being a special needs mom, processing the divorce, grieving the painful loss of your mother.

It's a lot.

You're taking the right steps by reaching out. Just want you to know that, Laura.

And like Dr.

Kelly said, look for those little moments of joy and don't feel bad about them.

Yeah, do not feel bad about them. And the other thing that I often encourage as a starting point is to trust what you love. And sometimes if you've been really busy taking care of other people or dealing with a lot of chaos or crisis in your life, you can forget what it is you love. But there may be something that You just enjoy beyond reason. You look forward to it. If someone gives you an opportunity to do it, you're like, yes, I love that. If you had a few extra moments, it's how you'd want to spend your time. If there's something like that, and maybe especially if it's something that you haven't been giving yourself permission or time to do, to really trust the things that you love and to view them as essential, essential

acts of self-care and not to dismiss their value. Yeah. It's so true.

Even writing it down, like doing a little list of things that bring you joy that maybe you haven't done in a long time.

One of the things I'm doing right now, I don't know if you have feelings about this, Jenny, but Dancing with the Stars brings me a lot of joy. I don't know if I have the same feelings. It gives me anxiety watching that. I was wondering.

But yeah, that's true. Even just your favorite TV show.

Yeah.

Let yourself enjoy your moments, Laura. I'm so proud of you and honored that you were able to call in and be so vulnerable and share your story. And this just might help someone else out there who is going through something similar. And that is exactly why we share our stories.

You know, one of the things that's really stood out to me in talking to people about joy is when you ask people to describe a moment of joy, a lot of times people describe something like what you just said. that they were going through something difficult and somebody else shared that they too were struggling with that. And that feeling of not being alone, it's not a happy feeling.

It's not euphoria. But that sense of suddenly knowing you aren't alone is a form of joy. And also being able to be that for somebody else is a form of joy. And sometimes the way that joy shows up isn't in this super positive, happy or excited mode. It is, again, sometimes just a feeling of relief or feeling of of uplift or connection that makes you feel better about life.

And you can often choose that too. Like, um, like calling in and talking about what you're going through so that somebody else who's going through grief and caring and all of that, they're like, wow, yeah, this is, um, this is part of the human condition we're doing. That's right.

It feels so unifying.

Thank you for.

Calling in, Laura. You tell a story in your book about your dad, and it's really sweet and special. So can you tell us about the handwritten list that he kept in his drawer?

And I should say, you know, this is another example of how joy can be a mixed emotion. So this is a list that my mom sent me about a month after my father died. It was a list that she had found in his bedside drawer. And it was a list of things that brought him joy, his favorite joy memories. And he was making that list because when I first started to write a book about joy, he said to me, oh, that's interesting. I've only experienced joy maybe a couple of times in my life. And when he first said that, I was like, wow, that's depressing.

But I challenged him a little bit on it. And I described what I meant by joy. And he was like, well, let me tell you one story. And he told me that one time that he would consider joy was when he had to feed us as babies. I have a twin sister and my mom was still in the hospital and he had to get up every morning to bottle feed us. And he remembered the first time that I smiled at him. And that was one of his few moments of joy. And I never heard that story before.

And it was so exciting to talk to him about, to start to learn more about him. And we started sharing these memories. And as he started to think of more moments of joy, he created that list so that every time we talked on the phone, he could share a new joy memory with me. And that started before he was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. And when he was diagnosed, it was such a whirlwind. It's a terrible disease. It was very quickly, there was no treatment options. But because we had started that conversation about a year earlier, it actually was, it was almost a miracle. The way that we were able to connect and talk honestly, once he learned he was dying, because somehow talking about joy had

created a kind of openness and vulnerability in our conversations. That had never been there in my 50 years of being his daughter. And I think this is another risk worth taking when it comes to joy is being willing to share with others when and how they bring you joy, sharing your positive memories, and even allowing yourself to have those moments. One of the memories that he shared with me that really took me by surprise is he said the moment in his life when he felt closer to me than he'd ever felt to any human being was when we were thrift store shopping in California, just at the Goodwill looking for bargains like we often do. And he said he remembered just standing on that aisle and feeling so close to me. And it was one of

his favorite moments in life. And I thought, you know, that even just him telling me that was such a beautiful thing. But also how often we dismiss those small moments and that you could be standing in the store doing something with a loved one. And that could end up being the memory that they cherish more than any other, just because you were there and you were present and you allowed yourself to have that time together.

How can we start making that list, the joy list? I love this idea.

So some of the questions that I ask people when they're starting to collect their moments of joy, to start, very simple, one can be what something in the last 24 hours that brought you joy. Like if I asked you that, Would you be able to look back on any moment, something that made you smile or laugh or feel good? For sure.

Just last night holding Dottie in my arms and she was passed out asleep and I was just looking at her little nose and her little lips and just like taking it in how sweet and beautiful she was.

Yeah, perfect. So that's a way you can start is looking for something very recent again to lower your threshold. But then I also often ask people questions like, If you could permanently save one memory and be able to relive it whenever you want, you could just kind of go there in your mind and be able to re-experience it.

What moment would you want to be able to access in that way? And people often come up with quite interesting memories. Not always the biggest milestones in their lives, but just moments that were really beautiful or meaningful. Right.

I think two things come to mind for me. One is. Making the list and it's asking yourself this question, what brings me joy? What big or little things do I remember that I wish I could relive? Those, ask yourself those and then write about it in your journal. And then, you know, maybe another idea I had was at dinner when our family, which happens rarely now, is all together at the table. We do like rose bud thorn You know, what was your best part of your day?

Worst part of your day?

What are you looking forward to?

But maybe you could do a joy. What brought you joy today?

Yeah. Just that question, bringing that conversation to the forefront of people's minds really helps you expand your joy. Yeah.

And I also, I love that you, I mean, the version that you're doing is such a perfect example because it allows for both positive empathy and negative empathy. You know, so often we connect with our friends or family, by just complaining or venting. Like we need that social support, but it's just as important to let people celebrate the good.

And even when you revisit something good that happened that day, it amplifies the meaningfulness of it. It's so easy to forget the good moments. And then you get this kind of joy amnesia, like did it even really happen? That thing that made you feel good about yourself or that you really enjoyed. And then you have that opportunity to share it with somebody else and you relive it. you recognize, oh wait, like something good did happen. And then you get to feel close to one another through the fact that somebody else cares about your happiness. And I think the question, what's something worth celebrating is one we could add to that list too. I like that idea.

And let go of the guilt associated with you having joy in your life and sharing it with someone else. I think that's a big deal for a lot of people, especially in this current climate. It's hard to you know, it's scary to share your joyous moments with people because maybe they aren't having them in their own lives. But I think your messaging is so incredible. When people read your book, what is one thing that you want the readers to get from it?

I think one of the biggest ideas is that joy, uh, serves a function that every moment of joy is something that shores up our enthusiasm for life. And that includes the joy that you feel and the joy that you show, you know, something as simple as there are people in your life. When you see them, you are happy that they are there and you can show that in your face and you can show it in your voice. You can show it in how you greet them. There's so many opportunities every day to appreciate something good or to show others that they bring you joy. And every time we do that, we are, we are making a statement that life is worth living. And we are saying to others, your existence in this world is a good thing. And

one of the things, I mean, I think we're often very comfortable talking about the fact that life is stressful, but one of the things that I'm always thinking about is it's really hard to be human. And there can be many times throughout the day when you're interacting with other people, you may not know that they are hanging on by a thread. Um, And to view joy, something as simple as a moment of shared laughter, or when you really listen to someone, or when somebody invites you to join them in something joyful, like to dance or to sing or to play a game, and to say yes to that. Each one of those moments is a moment that is going to really bolster people's sense that life is worth living. And that's one of the reasons

why the idea of feeling guilty about joy It's really a mistake and it's kind of a sad mistake because when you look even at the end of life, when people have an opportunity to appreciate something beautiful they do, you put a cat on someone's chest at the end of life and they still have that same capacity to be moved and to want to care for that cat.

If they imagine something good about someone that they love, they still feel a sense of hope. these are the things that we are alive for. And that's the core message of the book, that these things are also possible. Sometimes we get so distracted by what we think will make us happy that our big life circumstances, that we forget to pay attention to how many moments throughout the day are trying to let you know that you matter.

There are so many things happen to you every day if you really paid attention to it that would give you that signal And sometimes we create stories in our head about how we won't really know that or feel that until it's a big, the big event. Right.

One of the things that I do every night before I go to sleep is say to myself three things that I'm grateful for that happened today. But I think I might pivot and ask myself, what are three things that brought me joy today? I want to try that out.

There's research showing that that exercise significantly increases people's meaning in life and it can reduce symptoms of depression and anxiety. And it's actually an exercise that I recommend. I call it the joy review. And one of the reasons it's so important is because, like I said, so many great moments of the day, if you don't revisit them, they disappear.

Your brain learns from experience when you repeat it in your head. And so many of us, I'm definitely one of them. If something went wrong that day, I ruminate on it. I play it in my head. What should I have done? Somebody said something that was hurtful or critical and I'm processing it. And if I give all of my mental energy to that or to the things I'm worried about, and I'm spending that time before I fall asleep, thinking about what could go wrong, people I'm worried about, my brain, I'm literally telling my brain to forget all of the good things. So that as I sleep, it's literally deleting out The memory of someone thanking me or the memory where I felt content. Yeah, I know.

And it's just a natural instinct, though, I think, for so many people.

Yeah, it is. But one of the great things is that we can cultivate these other ways of using our brain, of using our attention. And it's so true.

I mean, our brains are hungry for elasticity and change and new routines and more positive ways of thinking. So Dr. Kelly McGonigal's book, Joy is a Risk Worth Taking, is out now. I'm so happy for you. You guys need to get it and take the risk. It is so worth it. Thank you for joining me. But before I let you go, Dr. Kelly McGonigal, what was your last I Choose Me moment?

One I'm really excited to share. I recently got a tattoo. It's a tattoo. I know I don't have a lot of tattoos. This is a midlife change. Finally being like, why not? It's funny. I always thought like, well, what if I regret what I get? And so I thought of a song that I have loved for 40 years, Into the Groove by Madonna. Oh, yeah, that's a good one.

You know, I think if I've loved it this long, it is worth putting on my body. So I got the first lyric on my arm and you can dance. And I got for inspiration on my collarbone because when that song starts and Madonna says, and you can dance for inspiration, it makes me so happy. And I thought it's worth celebrating something that small, but that has consistently brought me joy for four decades. I love it. I love that.

Thank you so much for being with us today and be sure to pick up Kelly's book.

Thank you so much. It was really nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you too.

Looking for Joy in All the Right Places with Dr. Kelly McGonigal

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