Is Your Child Manipulating You ... or Testing You?

0:00 A reward chart for good behavior at home that sends this message. You're normally rotten. If you should happen to be good, you'll get a gold star.

0:06 I think that's the thing is you never praised anything that wasn't earned.

0:09 If you're rewarding for just normal behavior, you're treating them as if they're not normal and their behavior is not good. Imagine if your spouse said to you, You were really good today. I'm gonna give you a gold star. How would you react? Welcome to the Bratbusters Parenting Podcast. My name's Lisa Bunnage.

0:24 I'm a parenting coach. I'm a mom. I'm also a grandmother.

0:26 And I'm Amy Bunnage, Lisa's daughter, and I handle the marketing and planning here at Bratbusters. While I don't have kids, each episode we'll dive into parenting topics and Lisa will answer your questions. Let's get started. Okay, sweetie, what is today's topic? Today's topic is why positive reinforcement can backfire.

0:44 Good one. So the reason why we did this is someone wrote in a question, and I think it has a lot of good nuance. And I think that this could be a whole episode topic. We do have some questions at the end, but I want to start with a listener question. Sure. So we have Joanne from Australia. In March 2025, you talked about hating positive reinforcement and the reward chart.

1:03 Both are used to get rid of specific bad behavior or to reinforce a specific positive behavior that you want done consistently. It's not about being good or bad. For example, if you want your child to stop getting out of their bed, you choose a reinforcement that works and follow through to keep them from getting out of bed at night.

1:18 Do you really think that's stupid? And what would you rather do then?

1:21 I'm just gonna make this a big picture uh answer and saying positive reinforcement. Now, here's the thing: life doesn't operate that way. Let's say that the government gave you positive reinforcement whenever you paid your taxes all the time, but there's no on time, but there's no penalty if you don't.

1:37 How do you operate? Do you op would you pay your taxes on time? Does positive reinforcement work in the real world? And and I understand why not. Um it just doesn't, it's useless. Um, but yeah, and let's say that you're you're speeding and the police, and let's say you're going, pardon me, the right speed, and the police go, oh, good girl, good girl, as you go by.

1:56 Does that prevent you from speeding, or is it the ticket? Is it the negative, is it the the negative consequence? Is it the consequences that teach you, the ramifications, the the the penalties? Is that what teaches you right from wrong? Or is it being told you're wonderful when you do the right thing?

2:12 Think about it.

2:13 You're not talking about like classroom settings with reward charts. Do you want to go into that?

2:17 Okay. Reward charts work work beautifully in a classroom with a teacher. It's not personal, it's business, okay? And reward chart, usually we're talking about behavior reward charts, okay? Um, so in a classroom, uh, it's completely different from home. A lot of my clients are teachers, principals, and child psychologists.

2:32 I can't do their jobs. What they do would not work at home, which is why they hire me, because they realize it's very different. Okay, a reward chart for good behavior at home that sends this message. You're normally rotten. If you should happen to be good, you'll get a gold star. That's what that's that's the message you're sending.

2:48 If you're rewarding for just normal behavior, you're treating them as if they're not normal and their behavior is not good. Okay, so now it's like imagine if your spouse said to you, You were really good today. I'm gonna give you a gold star. How would you react? What message is that sending? It's horrible.

3:03 Yeah, they're they're absolutely horrible. I can't stand it. Now a behavior board sends the opposite message. You're normally great, but if you should happen to make a mistake or break a rule, there's gonna be a consequence. See the difference? One implies that they're good, one implies they're not.

3:16 I think things get a little blurry when you talk about your approach to potty training or morning routines because you do approach those with incentives.

3:23 Um, yeah, they're bribery because I consider those bodily functions. They're not, I don't base those on behavior. I base those on bodily functions. Obviously, potty training, you understand why that is, but getting up and moving in the morning for some people who are night people by nature were born that way, evidently, either night or morning people.

3:41 Not everyone is. Some people are born in the middle, but it can be really strong. Kids who really struggled as children to get up in the morning often just are a night person as they get older. I remember I was always a morning person. My dad got up at four o'clock every morning and I got up with him and I was happy to do that.

3:56 I loved it. So yeah, I consider it like a bodily function, getting up and moving. That's why I don't tend to treat morning or potty training, morning routine or potty training as anything but a bodily function. I don't treat it as a behavior.

4:08 So how do you approach it then if you're trying to encourage your child to do something like homework or maybe something that they find challenging?

4:14 If they find something challenging, I'm right there helping them and supporting them and getting them tutors or whatever else they need or getting them extra help at school at school or whatever. I'm there to support them. But I also I just set up a time. I want them to be self-disciplined because that's what gives them pride.

4:28 If all they're doing is waiting for approval, a pat on the head all the time, that's not pride, by the way. It's something else. It's just not what you want. Um, so yeah, you want to build strong individuals who do the right thing just because they have pride in themselves, pride in their own behavior.

4:41 They don't need the pat on the head because that's very patronizing. We don't operate that way as adults. So why would you train your kids that way? That they need to be patted on the head every time they do something right. So what you do is you just set up routines and you say, here's the routine. If they're struggling with homework and they really can't do it, I intervene and I say, look, if you're really struggling with this, let's figure it out together.

5:00 Okay. Otherwise, I just set up routines and let them be self-disciplined, self-driven. I want them to have control and autonomy over their own lives. But if they mess up and they refuse to do it, then I'll come in with a consequence. Because it's a really fair and reasonable system that I've set up around homework or whatever else.

5:16 And if they choose not to follow it, they can either discuss it nicely with me and we can adjust it, or they just they're gonna get a consequence if they just say, no, I'm not doing it. This is with stuff that really has to be done.

5:26 I want to go back to it.

5:27 Let me just go back to this too, though. Is we're talking about discipline here. Anyone who's listened to me for any amount of time realizes I'm not about discipline. I'm about connecting, not correcting. Correcting is just something that we have to do, but I'm about connecting with kids, bonding with them in their world.

5:42 They are not about praise and positive reinforcement. That's not what excites them. That is not their love language. Their love language is fun. And I'm good at that with kids. I know how to play with kids and make them feel good. And when they feel good, they tend to do good. So whenever we're discussing this positive reinforcement, they don't give a crap about it, okay?

5:59 It just doesn't mean anything to them. They will sort of say good because they don't get the fun. They would always rather have fun than a compliment. You ask a child, would you rather get a compliment or have me play with you for five minutes? Always, always, always they'll pick fun.

6:12 I do want to say though, you did use positive reinforcement with me sometimes, or at least that's how I interpreted it. If I like did something maybe nice around the house, or like I did something a little extra, like I feel like you gave a compliment or you thanked me for it. So like, where does that line get?

6:27 Yeah, it's just this, it's so overdone. Whenever people talk about positive reinforcement, it's often around bad behavior. So if they've been naughty with something and then they do it right, they go, oh, good girl, good girl. I don't tend to do that. I treat good behavior as normal. But if my kids did like a good deed or something thoughtful, then I would say, oh, what a great kid.

6:43 I'm so lucky. I was always praising my kids, but not in the way that most people think. I was always thinking, gee, I'm lucky to have you. And they knew it. They knew I wallowed in them. And you having fun with them, playing with them is the nicest thing you can do. It's the nicest compliment you can ever give a child, is to play in their world and enjoy it.

7:00 They makes them feel like a million bucks.

7:03 I want to circle back to when you were saying not about giving constant rewards just for the baseline. Do you think that that raises kids to be looking for that validation for other areas in their life? Uh, can you explain that? So if they're always expecting a praise, it's like if they don't ever hear that from somebody, like let's say they're always hearing good job for something that's kind of what you would assume just kind of baseline.

7:24 Once they grow up and they don't hear that, do you think that they start searching it out? If they never get sugar.

7:29 But if you're playing with them, remember, fun is their love language, and their love language is not praise. So they don't tend to search it out because they don't need it. You playing with them is the praise within itself. It means that they're worthy of being enjoyed. So that in itself is praise. Don't get me wrong, it's not like I never praise my kids, but it's so overused.

7:48 This praise and compliments and positive reinforcement on it's so overused. It's so sickeningly sugary. Oh, you're so good. Oh, you pulled up your socks. Well, I'm 17 years old. Like it's so overused. And it's used instead of the connection, which is the fun and connecting with them in their world. Not all the time, not all the time, but it I I would rather err on the side of connecting rather than praising them all the time.

8:12 Let me rephrase my question because I think that I'm trying to get into your mindset with this question is is your mindset that the reason why you don't like the reward charts and everything is because it's getting those children to look for external validation for everything.

8:25 Um, not really. The reward chart is more, I think it's an insult. I think it's I think it's horrible. Could you imagine if your husband had one for you or your wife had one for you? You know, if you if you're nice today, I'm gonna give you a gold start. It's just, it's so insulting. I just think it's nasty.

8:42 I think some parents might be listening and they hear about your focus on connection and how that's so important. Doesn't that kind of fall into positive reinforcement?

8:50 Um, well, because I enjoyed it. I wasn't trying to, uh I was enjoying them. So uh I don't think so. When when we talk about positive reinforcement, I'm thinking more about the compliments and the praise for doing something just normal. That's what I'm that's what I think I'm arguing. Maybe you're we're arguing different things, but I think about this overpraising for everything that they do.

9:10 Oh, good girl, you brushed your teeth. Oh, you washed your hands, oh it's that kind of stuff. And that it just is kind of patronizing. And it's not their like it's not their love language. Their love language is fun. So you're saying, is that positive reinforcement? Yeah, I guess it is, but it's it's in a different way.

9:26 Being enjoyed is pot, but it's it's more organic. Yeah, it is positive reinforcement, but it's organic. So it's different. It just happens, you know. It just uh, you know, when I was working with kids, I worked with troubled kids, uh teenagers and that. And I always had to find something to enjoy with them because I always told them, I said, look, I can't, the way I operate, I mother them, right?

9:46 One-on-one. And the way I operate is I have to enjoy them. I have to find something to like in them. It's just the way I operate. So when I was working with the teenagers, they I had a reputation of being funny. So I got away with quite a bit. And I remember once saying to one of them, he was just vile to me.

9:59 I just met him in a couple of weeks and he was really being rude. And then I just said to him one day, I said, Look, I have to find a way to, I have to like something about you. But really, right now, I can't find anything. You're just disgusting. And he actually he smiled, so he got that, and we laughed.

10:13 That is, was that positive reinforcement? It actually was because he started, I knew what I knew it would get to him. He actually we started laughing, and then I got the humor. I said, Look, you're funny. I you got a sense of humor, I can work with that. So is that positive reinforcement? I cried, I complimented him.

10:28 You got a sense of humor, I can work with that. I found something to like. I just wanted to find- I would never say that to a kid uh unless you knew what you were doing, because that was a bit risky, but it wasn't in the situation that I was in.

10:40 All I'm really doing is trying to tease out what your definition of positive reinforcement is, because I think if two people are coming in with different interpretations, then they might think that your method, when you're just saying blanket term, I don't do positive reinforcement for discipline, they might get confused.

11:05 Yeah, it's like uh let's say that their chores are make their bed, put their laundry away, and put their dirty clothes in the hamper. Those are three pretty standard chores. My kids had that at three years old. It was so quick and easy. I'm very organized and more of a minimalist, so there was hardly any stuff to put away and all that.

11:18 So um, they learned from a very young age to put stuff away. Here's the thing is I was always saying, gee, I'm lucky to have such great kids. I was always talking like that. Now, is that positive reinforcement? Is that is that positive? So I but I never praised them. Oh, good job making your bed, because they did it every day.

11:35 What am I supposed to say? Good job. I'm not gonna praise what I consider just normal basic stuff every single day. But I I did praise them for I I think they always felt very special, and that's how I was raised. My mom was more into praise for sure, um, but that's not what I liked. I loved it when my mom spent time with me.

11:53 I loved it when we'd laughed together. That was what really made me feel good. So I'm using what made me feel good too, and what kids sort of react to. You know, I've been working with kids forever, and uh and that, you know, I always had fun with them, and they seemed to be happy when they were with me.

12:07 I wasn't one to overpraise. If anything, I was a horrible tease. But they always pick up on that. They, you know, I'm very careful too. I I sort of choose my audience well. So, but they love that. They know when you're having fun with them. That is the nicest thing you can do for your children is to enjoy them.

12:22 And they know the difference if you're just putting in the time or if you're truly wallowing in them. They know that. Now, when you're a really good leader, they don't act out so you can wallow in them all the time. It's very rare that they ever act out with a leader. So I take care of all that, you know, nasty behavior if they ever have any.

12:38 I take care of that by just handing out consequences, not using praise or positive reinforcement. I just say, yeah, you did something stupid there or whatever. I just said it like it was. Here's your consequence, and then I'd do something stupid. I'd say, yeah, I did something stupid. I'm gonna get a consequence.

12:51 You see, I didn't praise what I considered I because I think if you're praising them for doing something normal and simple and just for being nice, I just expected that anyway. I treated them, I treated them like they already were, and that was a given. But I also wanted them to feel special, and enjoying them is what makes them feel special.

13:10 Enjoying their company, playing with them. That's what makes them feel special. You ask any kid this, you know, they'll probably get lots of answers. Oh, my kids said they wanted compliments. But general, I've talked to hundreds of kids and they all say that it's the connection that they love, the playing.

13:23 I definitely feel like you balanced out both, but I do feel like just for the day-to-day stuff, I you didn't use positive reinforcement. But like, for example, if I did a dance recital, I feel like you definitely said, Oh, you did so great. And you were very much like words of affirmation for that.

13:37 Yeah, but that's not behavior. I think we're talking about behavior here. That that's the thing, is I didn't say, Oh, you were so good. What was I yesterday? Bad. You see, I used it with stuff like accomplishments. Oh, yeah, I was all over them. Oh my god, you were just beautiful, you were like a gazelle up there.

13:51 Yeah, I was praising them and complimenting, but it wasn't around behavior. That's the difference. But accomplishments, oh gosh, yes, I was all over them. Yeah, if I was nice, you were. I'm just expecting that. I just expected them to be nice because they were, they were good kids. So I just expected that.

14:06 I didn't praise them for being nice and good. Never because uh it just was a given. Right? And all the kids that I worked with, I also didn't praise them for being nice and good. But I did I did wallow, I did fuss over their accomplishments. Yeah, I did. So I did use positive reinforcement, but not around behavior.

14:25 We've talked about this where it's like you rise up to the level of like your expectations. I just expect the best. I just do. I always treat kids like they're gold and they become that. That's the way I I've I've often said that. Treat them like they're gold and they will become that. I never treated them like, oh my god, you actually were gold for a second there.

14:41 It's like I treat them like they are, like that's their identity, and their behavior is just a tad of an annoyance in the moment. Yeah, I treat them like they're gold, and that's what they become. Now, let me say gold. That's a bit of a broad statement. You know what I mean. I treat them like they're really valuable, enjoyable, good people.

15:01 And they and that's what I meant by gold.

15:03 No, I think people, I think that makes sense. It's like you saw the best.

15:06 Yeah, I definitely I'm always searching for it, and I'm really good at bringing it out because the kids I worked with, they were always behavioral challenge kids, right? So I always had I had to find a way to connect with them. And it could be drawing. You a lot of it was humor, because I love humor too.

15:20 So a lot of it was humor, but not all of them. Some of them weren't into humor. Some of them love magic tricks, so we'd bond over that. Uh, so yeah, and then when they really did well on a test or something that they were I knew they really were struggling with, oh yeah, I went ballistic over that stuff.

15:34 Yeah, but that was not behavior though. But if they were really struggling in class, I won't tell this story. I I tell stories in coaching, but I did cry once. I got a report card from a teenager that wasn't doing very well, and then they got uh a good grade in a class. I lost it. It just started bowling my eyes out.

15:52 I was just so thrilled. I'd been working with them for ages and they got a really good mark on something. So is that positive reinforcement? Yeah, but it's not about behavior, it's about accomplishments. I knew they'd put in the work and they were really proud of showing me that mark they got.

16:05 I think that's the thing is you never praised anything that wasn't earned.

16:08 There you go. There you go. I used to tell my kids too, you know, I said, if you're really smart or really beautiful, don't take credit for that. You just that was a gift you were given. Take credit for stuff that you do for accomplishments, stuff that you actually have to work for.

16:22 Yeah. There you go.

16:23 That was a good one.

16:24 Now I want to circle back to the example that this person gave. They said, if you want your child to stop getting out of bed, you choose a reinforcement that works and follow through to keep them from getting out of bed at night. So how would you approach that then?

16:36 Choose a reinforcement? I don't understand that. What are they implying?

16:39 I think maybe if this child really likes a certain reward or like a sticker chart or something, maybe they get a certain sticker for staying in bed. That would be my interpretation of this.

16:49 Okay. Uh now, in my world, the way I'm a calm leader, the way I teach in what I teach, to me that's garbage. But it might work in another system. You know, it just in my system, it would be garbage. I would I would never do that. So, what would be your general approach then? If they get out of bed, they get walked right back to bed.

17:05 Okay. I have a whole system on bedtime routine. So it's probably the most successful thing of all the standard stuff that I teach in coaching, bedtime routine. It's if they get out of bed, you just put them back to bed, put them back to bed, put them back to bed. They shouldn't think that they get to earn that they get a reward for going to bed.

17:22 That's what you're saying. Positive reinforcement. You're rewarding them for going to bed. I don't do that. Yeah, they you you go to bed and you stay in bed, and that's it. I just keep walking them back to bed. There's more detail. I've talked about this to the nth degree. You can just Google Bratbuster's bedtime routine, and I've got a whole system on how you do that.

17:37 But yeah, you don't re- Yeah, you don't comp it just would it would be crap in my system. Like it just wouldn't work. Now, I I admit I never uh see what anyone else out there is teaching. I never have. I'm purposely stay away from that because everything I teach, kids taught me. So I have experience-based methods that I've used for decades.

17:55 So everything I teach has been practiced with hundreds, if not thousands, of kids that I've talked to, that I've talked to their parents or online. And so, yeah, it's it is experience-based proof that this can work very effectively within the realm of everything else I teach in my system, my calm leadership system.

18:14 But it might work in another system. I don't know. But in mine, it would just be, I would think it'd be crap. There's no way I would do that.

18:21 And just if someone's listening right now and they're going, oh, but you use the morning routine incentive. So what's different between morning and night?

18:27 Bedtime routine I don't consider uh because it usually starts quite early too. And it's they're usually wide awake when they're usually wired at night. So it's not like they're trying to get up and get their body temperature adjusted, right? That's the morning routine, which is more like that. But this way, they're wired and they just want to stay up.

18:43 It's just a different, it's just completely different.

18:45 I I'm pushing back a little bit because wouldn't that technically be a bodily function in the sense of like we've all been in bed just like trying to fall asleep and how frustrating that is.

18:52 Yeah, I just don't treat it that way. There's a whole bunch of stuff like that. But that I make the school morning routine an incentive-based one. The thing is, I don't want to drag it out. You got to get them to school. That's another reason why we do it. It's time limited. Get putting them back to bed, you can go till 11, 12 at night.

19:07 The longest I ever heard was an older kid, about eight, and they went till five in the morning. This kid kept getting out of bed. He was gonna win that war, and the parents won, and he never got out of bed again, not after that. Um, so they won the war. And uh, but yeah, with the morning, you gotta get them to school.

19:21 So it's kind of a necessity to get them to school. You can't just keep doing, you know, what I would say. Maybe I might have another method if you can say, well, school is just waiting for whenever they get there. But even then I wouldn't do it that way. No, it's just different. There's no time limit on getting them to bed.

19:34 To clarify, he did get out of bed again just at the appropriate hour. Yes, I knew you were gonna say something like that. Yeah, he never he never pushed his parents like that. And funny thing is, I'd already been working I they wanted to do that in the very first session. I said, You're not ready for that.

19:47 We have to get some some credit to your, you know, get get you some sort of experience under your belt first. That was, I believe, the third uh behavior board we did, and I think so the third week. And then they were ready for it. We'd already done a lot of work together. Actually, I think it was even later than that.

20:02 We did it off a board. Anyway, uh, like not with a behavior board. Anyway, uh, and they were ready for it and it worked, and everything else got easier. That kid realized, oh, my parents actually do know what they're doing because they went till 5 a.m. So it gave them a lot of credit. And uh yeah, they they felt so confident after that, they thought, wow, this works.

20:22 So everything got easier.

20:23 Okay, would you like to get into the parenting questions for this episode? Sounds good. Hi, I have three-year-old twins and five-year-old, all boys. We take them to swimming lessons once a week, the three of them in a lesson with one teacher. The older boy does great, and the younger ones seem to love taking the lesson week one week, but then refuse to get in the pool the other.

20:41 The teacher gives them a prize at the end of the lesson. How should we approach this behavior? My husband and I are both there at the lesson and try to encourage them to get back in. Sometimes just take one out of the car if he's yelling and distracting the others, but we're not sure what the right approach is.

20:54 Okay, so they're not afraid of the water because sometimes they'll get in. If they were afraid of the water, my approach would be different, okay? So what I would do is I'd put it on the behavior board and I'd say you have to listen to the swimming teacher. You never put, you have to listen to me as parents, because you don't put this ridiculous, but you can do it with other people, okay?

21:09 And if and because you're still the leader. So if they don't listen to the teacher during that swimming lesson, then when you get home, there's a consequence. Okay, so that's how you'd manage that. Just put it on the board. Follow the follow the teacher, listen to the teacher during swimming lessons.

21:21 If you don't, there'll be a consequence when we get home. You know what I would do though for that one? Actually, that's a really good one. On the way home, I'd say, you know what? Um, on the way home, and just do this temporarily, oh, let me think. There's two different ways of doing this. I know. Uh, I would surprise them with this.

21:35 So they're really naughty during swimming lessons. Do the best you can to keep them in the pool. Anyway, you get in the car. You got the five-year-old who's been really good for their for his lesson, then the two little three-year-old boys were not. So you say to you say this, you say, I'll tell you something.

21:48 This is called inventing leverage, but it's such a good opportunity to do it because you're already in the car on the way home. I would say, we were gonna surprise you by going up for ice cream on our way home. So you say to the older boy, Johnny, you're gonna get ice cream because you were really good in swimming lessons, but there's got to be a consequence for you guys really acting out uh in swimming lessons.

22:05 So you're not gonna get an ice cream cone. So yeah, on the Way home, the five-year-old gets ice cream, the other two do not now. The kickback I'm gonna get with that is why didn't you give them a warning? Because I don't want them to be good just to get the ice cream. That's why. And it's just a surprise that you're gonna do once in a while.

22:20 You're not gonna do it every single time. But then the other time that they're naughty in the pool, then you could just go home and use the consequence. It's just that first time I would do that because you really want them to be good the next time. And then if we're good, do we get ice cream? No, it was just gonna be a surprise.

22:33 It was just gonna be a surprise the other day. You do not owe them that. It's not a reward for being good, it's a punishment for being bad, having to watch the five-year-old. That's what that is. You do not owe them that. And you do not get them ice cream the next time if they are good. They just will not get a consequence.

22:48 They're three years old. They'll they'll catch on to this.

22:50 Okay, the next one's Krista from the United States. My almost four-year-old son prefers the negative deprivation consequence to a positive action. I usually ask him to do one or two-minute cleaning chore and then take away the toy if he does not do it. He no longer does the chore and will wait for the toy to be taken away.

23:04 No matter what toy I take, it has no effect. He just is as happy to play with something else. He never asks for his toy back, doesn't show any emotion, comment, or fight me when I take it. We're not raising him on any sugar or screen time. The only thing left for me to take away are things that I think are good for him, like playtime outside or reading before bed.

23:22 In addition, as he's drifted from preferring the positive action to negative deprivation, he's becoming more defiant. Clearly, my negative deprivation is no longer effective, so please help me come up with other ideas.

23:33 Yeah, it's a hard one because I'm not working with you. I don't know your home situation, what's going on there. Um, like I can't come up with great ideas, but generally what I do in coaching is I say there's gotta be something that he would care that you take away. And it might be right in the moment.

23:45 You could literally do this and you could say, I'll tell you what, uh, because you know you didn't do the first consequence, which he didn't want to do, that's fair enough. You say, What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna take away all of your toys except for and just leave him books or something that he's really not big on.

23:59 So literally he has no toys left. Do the toy rotation system so you don't have very many toys out at any given time. Okay. So he virtually has nothing left, okay? And only do it for maybe a couple of hours if you're home. Just do it for, yeah, probably just a couple hours. And then that's it. Just take everything away, basically.

24:17 Just take it away for a couple hours. Say, okay, don't take it away for 24. I think that's mean.

24:21 The next one is Madison from the United States, currently using the behavior board for my son, who's four. My husband's rule on the board is no yelling. Al San was reaching for a glass bottle in the fridge. My husband yelled harshly at him to stop because it was going to fall and break. I told my husband he needed to go to the board with Al San because he yelled.

24:37 My husband said he had to because the glass bottle was going to break and fall and it was a dangerous scenario. He didn't think he had to go to the board. What should I do in this situation? I thought he was being harsh and needed to show Al San he's accountable.

24:49 No, uh, you were right, mom. Uh he shouldn't, he shouldn't have got a consequence for that, but it wasn't stated ahead of time. So what you do is you say, yeah, you get a consequence that time because we didn't state this ahead of time. If it's dangerous, like if you're gonna run in front of a car, I'm allowed to yell.

25:03 That's not yelling in anger, that's yelling in safety or danger. So yeah, that doesn't count. Yeah, I would scream for sure if a kid was gonna do something dangerous, wouldn't, and I've never, I I've never yelled, but I would if they were gonna get hurt. Absolutely. But you didn't say that ahead of time.

25:17 So yeah, he does get a consequence the first time, but then you say now you say, if it's something dangerous, we're allowed to yell, because that's not anger, that's safety.

25:25 Okay, the next one is Maggie from the United States. I have twin girls who turn three, and sometimes it feels like they're when there's a fit about to begin, there's absolutely nothing we can do to stop it. I've tried saying you're safe, I'm here when you need me. I've tried yelling back, I've tried the consequence board, I've tried just walking away.

25:42 It'll continue to escalate. Then they tell me I don't want mummy anymore. I don't want a mummy anymore, and refuse to repair no matter how hard I try. It's been really tough ever since they turned three. I'm drowning.

25:54 I don't understand refuse to repair that terminology. I don't know what you mean by that. I don't do any of that. Everything that you just mentioned that you do, I don't do any of that. Um, okay, they just turned three. That is uh indicative of what I always say that three is a fork in the road. At three years old, they have the ability to stop and think.

26:08 So they stop and think, do my parents know what they're doing or not? In other words, am I gonna take over or not? Sounds like they just figured out you're not a leader and now they're taking over. Very, very common uh at three. They either get easier or more difficult. Or some kids are just sort of stay the same because they're not gonna be challenging anyway.

26:24 Okay, so that's why they've turned like that at three. And then everything you're doing, I don't do any of that. So, and I don't care what they say. We don't want mommy and all. That's just pure manipulation, okay? So if they start having a fit, just follow my tantrum routine, which is just ignoring them, but you're nearby, look like you're filing your nails, let them scream it out.

26:40 As soon as they're done, you say to the one who stops first, you say, Oh, do you want to go read a book? They might start up again, you just go whoops and ignore again. You're nearby, though. You don't talk and you don't look at them. They're on the low road. A tantrum is not behavior, it's also not make not based on big feelings and big emotions.

26:55 It's simply a loss of emotional control, not getting what they want, when they want, and how they want it. That's all. It's all about controlling you. Okay, so don't get caught up in that. Don't worry about it. It's not big, it's not, it's not the end of the world. It looks like it is, but they're, you know, in theater, they're very dramatic.

27:09 It's just the way it is. They're trying to manipulate you. So yeah, just let them go. And then when they stop, you never discuss a tantrum because it's not bad behavior. You never discuss it at all. If you do, you're on the low road. The tantrum is the low road, so you don't go down there. You don't look at them or talk to them.

27:23 You're just waiting nearby, filing your nails or something. As soon as they stop, oh, y'all done? You want to go read a book? And that's it. And that's it. But if they start up again, just say whoops and ignore again. By the way, then they'll off and say, I need a hug. That kind of stuff. That's not a love hug they're after.

27:39 That's validate the tantrum. Can you please console that tantrum? No, you do not do that. You can pat them on the back and just say, You're all right, let's go read a book. See my upbeat tone. It is not a time to console and cuddle and because they just want you to validate the tantrum after that. They're in the tantrum hangover phase.

27:55 Yeah, you don't validate them. No.

27:57 What's your approach to that at any other time though? What do you mean, any other time? I just think that if someone's listening to that and just doesn't take it in full context of like your approach to connection and hugs and everything.

28:08 Well, of course, I'm very affectionate with kids, but that's not a love, that's not a love hug they're after. That's a manipulative, they're trying to pull you in so that you feel sorry for them for having a tantrum. No, you do not. That's them processing their own frustration and anger at not getting their own way.

28:22 Okay. So you don't want to validate that. You don't enter that. Yeah, every other time you can be affectionate. I'm very affectionate with kids. But during a tantrum, no, not at all. You you want tantrums to have no payback, no payoff, no reward, none. Okay? No attention, no cuddles. Those are rewarding the tantrum.

28:40 That's all it is. And they're gonna keep having them.

28:42 Why wouldn't they? Because you're rewarding it. Okay, we have one final question. So Madison from Canada. I'm struggling to implement boundaries with my two and a half year old. I also have a three-month-old baby, which makes it more challenging. We've started using a timer for activities including TV.

28:56 Sometimes I let my toddler watch 25 to 30 minutes of a movie before nap time in the evening. This is after lots of play, time outside, and connection throughout the day. He knows when the timer goes off, so does the TV. As soon as I turn off the TV, almost every time, he throws a tantrum, runs up to the TV, and hits the screen with his hand.

29:12 Then he refuses to come upstairs for a nap and I have to carry him up alongside the baby while he's cooking and screening. Lately I've gotten frustrated during these episodes. I tell him no more TV for the rest of the day as a consequence for hitting the TV. I always follow through on this consequence, but it doesn't seem to change anything.

29:27 We don't have a behavior board because he's not three, so this is all verbal. Eventually he calms down once I get him in the crib and falls asleep. I know I'm not a leader yet, and that's my problem. But what should I be doing differently here? My husband thinks the screen time is a problem and he shouldn't be on screens anymore at all.

29:41 I agree. What I wrote down here is too much screen time. That's what that says to me. He you're it starts to affect their brain after a while. Like I think he's getting too much screen time, to be honest. That's exactly what that says to me. I would actually probably cut it out completely sometimes. Or if you're gonna let him watch any screen time, um, it could be a really quick show and with you.

30:01 And then the start of the show is when it starts, and when the show ends, you turn it off. If he has has an absolute fit, just get up and walk away with the screen, whatever you've had, the iPad or whatever, the TV, turn it off, and he will eventually learn. So if you want to give him any, sit down with him when you're when he's watching the show.

30:16 Uh I don't want to get into why, but anyway, sit down with him initially. I know you probably want some quiet time, but you want to train him out of this uh aggression when he when it goes off. It could be a real problem going down the road. And you don't usually have like specific opinions. Oh, and you can't possibly.

30:31 Nobody can answer how much screen time is healthy. Nobody can answer that. That's ridiculous. They'd have to do a study with a million people over a hundred years to figure that out. Yeah, no one can tell you that. You know what? You know how I know that? Lots of scientists have tried to say this much time.

30:45 They change it all the time and they all disagree. And unless they all agree on the exact same time because it's science proven, nobody knows. But it sounds to me sometimes some kids are fine with more screen time. Sounds like he isn't. It's affecting him differently. He's getting addicted to it. Not oh, I won't go into that, not so much addicted, but he he likes it too much to have it, have too much of it right now.

31:04 Go on cold turkey. Yeah, I would for a while. I agree. I would for a while. And then when you do it, reintroduce it. You know what I do uh with my granddaughter? We don't really watch screen, I I never watch shows with her. Um, but I take videos of her throughout the day. And we'll often sit, we'll have quiet time after her nap, and we'll often sit and watch the videos of her playing throughout that day.

31:23 So that's a healthy, you know, screen time, I think. Um we don't do it all the time, but it's something that, you know, maybe you could just do that. Take videos of him and just show him some videos. And that's more a health, and then when it ends, he understands that that's the end of that video. Well, she loves a good video of herself.

31:37 Well, it's funny because I'll often say, Do you and I just say it to tease her. I say, and she knows that now she's two and a half. So I'll say, Do you want to see a video of grandma? She goes, Oh, grandma. Of course not. She doesn't want to see that. Even when we do a video together talking about what we did all day, um, she'll sometimes say, Oh, just just me.

31:55 Like, oh, she says her name, but I don't like to say her name. But yeah, she doesn't even want me in the video when we're discussing our day.

32:02 That's so good.

32:03 And I say, Well, grandma's gonna be in it. And she goes, Okay.

32:06 There was one time on FaceTime where I was trying to like, I don't know why. I was trying to get her attention. I was like, hey, look, a video of you that I have.

32:13 Yeah. Oh, she'll look every single time. So yeah, maybe you could just introduce that as the screen time. Okay. Okay.

32:19 Well, that was everything for the questions.

32:21 Okay, it seemed like a heavy one. And I I don't know if I I don't feel like I was that succinct in in explaining it, but I'm I'm very um sold on the way I do this. And I do not use a lot of rewards. I just don't. I think that they teach children that, geez, they do anything and they should get something for it.

32:37 That goes along. A lot of people who believe in all that positive reinforcement also believe in participation awards. You know, they get something for nothing. Um, I couldn't say how much I hate that kind of stuff. Uh yeah, they they should just want to just they should just be normally kind of good after a while.

32:53 Once you're a leader, they tend to have more higher self-esteem and more confidence. And they tend to just make good choices. Not because of the positive reinforcement, just because they have high self-esteem.

33:03 But if you feel like it wasn't clear, let us know in the comments and we can maybe rehash this topic as well. Or you can submit a podcast question just because I feel like this show is so much directed and guided by the questions that we get.

33:15 And I do believe there is a part of me that likes to poke the bear with this. So, you know, I don't mind a little bit of controversy here. And I can understand it. I can see why this could be misinterpreted for sure. But I think if you talk to any kid I work with, they would say that they they felt pretty special when they were with me.

33:28 Okay, I think that is a great place to end.

33:30 Perfect. Back again soon with another parenting topic. Happy parenting.

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