When Lethal Injection Fails & the Cornell 7 (w. Professor Corinna Lain)

0:00 Brief Recess is nominated for a Signal Award, and you can help us win the Listener's Choice Award. Go to vote.signalaward.com, navigate to Categories, select Genre, then click Activism, Public Service, and Social Impact to find Brief Recess and cast your vote.

0:23 Welcome to Brief Recess. I'm Michael Foote.

0:25 I'm Melissa Malbranch.

0:26 Today we're going to talk about paranormal activity on Broadway. We're going to do a PSA to stop taking your dogs everywhere. We discuss the Cornell 7 and the Nolan Wells case. Then we sit down with Karina Lane to discuss the recent failed execution in Tennessee. And we're going to answer all your questions from the DMs. So stick around.

0:45 I did it in one take.

0:47 You're a professional.

0:48 I get one cigarette now. That's my treat. One drunk cigarette per year.

0:54 Okay.

0:56 Okay.

0:56 Leave that in. I want my husband to see that. I want him to know.

0:59 What?

1:00 That I'm going to have a drunk cigarette this year.

1:01 A drunk cigarette?

1:02 One drunk cigarette a year I think is okay.

1:04 Okay.

1:05 Surgeon's general warning. Just one.

1:08 Just one? One a year.

1:10 They say it takes five minutes off your life.

1:12 Okay. I mean.

1:13 What am I going to do with those five minutes?

1:15 Yeah. Smoke. He's sick of me.

1:18 He's so sick of my show.

1:22 Are you going to. Do a Halloween. Do you and Brad do stuff for Halloween? Yeah.

1:30 Oh, yeah.

1:30 No, no, no.

1:31 We always do a Halloween like a couple's costume.

1:34 Or any costume.

1:35 Let's get into a sidebar about people who do fucking couple's costumes.

1:37 Oh, boy.

1:40 I'm sick of it. Are you? I want a group costume. My friend wants to do the Gilmore Girls episode where Lorelai shows up to Chilton. It's laundry day, the first day of Chilton. Is that too niche? Very. All right. I'm going to be a Byron gnome.

2:00 That's too easy.

2:04 Let's be Lauren Bobert staff.

2:07 Ooh. Okay. I was, I literally just thought about it and asked you a question and got more than I anticipated.

2:16 Brad and I did. Okay. So this was before heated rivalry. We did, we were, uh, Tattoo, all the things she said, the lesbian schoolgirls for Halloween. You know the infamous music video?

2:30 Yeah.

2:30 Famous, infamous. Yes. We were the Russian schoolgirls one Halloween, but I forgot my skirt. I left my skirt at home.

2:40 So you didn't do it. So Brad did it.

2:42 I was from the waist up. Yes, I was her. Yeah, but the skirt is... It was pretty integral. People were... Pretty confused.

2:50 I can imagine.

2:51 Yeah, yeah.

2:53 Andre and I, would I- Yeah, what did you do? Well, we haven't done anything in a long time, but we used to do couples costumes. However, they were always like super cheesy. Do you know what I mean? It wasn't like we didn't think about it really hard. I would go and I would buy something dumb, like he was salt, I was pepper. Like it was dumb, stuff like that. But- I'm going with my brother and sister-in-law to take the baby out for his first sort of Halloween.

3:22 Okay.

3:23 And I feel like I should dress up. But it needs to be something that I could do myself.

3:30 If one of you was like pizza and the other was a rat? He was like a little slice of pizza.

3:36 He was like a little slice of pizza.

3:37 I love that. If you're going to do a couple's costume, it's got to be high concept.

3:41 I think it needs to be very cute.

3:44 Yeah.

3:46 Or cheesy so that people know that you're making fun of it. Do you know what I mean? Not like, oh, we really thought about this.

3:53 Or super niche, like an electrocuted rat and then the third rail. You know what I mean? You want it to be kind of... Can we get into an algorithm of showing actually about this?

4:05 Yeah, my algorithm has been nuts lately.

4:08 I fell victim to an online purchase.

4:12 What'd you buy, Michael?

4:13 Tickets to see Paranormal Activity on Broadway. Okay, and we went for our anniversary.

4:19 It was your wedding anniversary recently, yeah.

4:23 We went to see Paranormal Activity on Broadway together because I bought the tickets on an Instagram reel.

4:29 Was it good?

4:31 Melissa.

4:31 What?

4:32 This show is so insane.

4:35 But good insane?

4:36 No.

4:36 Or like, oh, no.

4:37 No.

4:37 Oh, no.

4:38 The calls coming from inside the house. Oh, no.

4:40 Oh, no, no, no.

4:41 And the crowd of people that go see paranormal activity on Broadway on a Saturday night.

4:46 Mm-hmm.

4:47 Good seats.

4:49 Who is it?

4:50 Like, imagine someone who owns like a lizard store in Florida.

4:54 Yeah.

4:56 Like a snake wrangler in the Everglades.

5:00 Like the Tiger King?

5:02 I'm in line for the bathroom.

5:06 Before, let me just ask you this. Did you, where's the fucking bell? Where's my bell?

5:14 Ding.

5:17 Before you bought the tickets, did you look in to see what it was? No. No. You know something? Not even for a second. I don't know if you were hoping that I would feel bad for you.

5:28 No.

5:29 Don't feel anything for me.

5:30 No, I feel nothing.

5:31 Because I wasted. And then I was like, you know what? I'm here. I'm going to waste all my money just buying food and candy and snacks and popcorn and soda. I'm in line at the bathroom, though.

5:39 Yes.

5:40 I go into the bathroom. There's a woman waiting behind me. She seems just like a normal person. Brad's in line behind her. I come out of the bathroom. He goes, you won't believe what that woman said while you were in the bathroom. She went up to an usher and said, I am so sorry. I have two broken ankles.

6:00 What's going on? How was she standing? I don't know.

6:07 And the usher goes, they didn't give you crutches? Instead, walk it off. Just walk it off. Take a couple Advil.

6:18 Yeah.

6:19 She goes, I'm so sorry.

6:20 I have two broken ankles. Take some Robitussin.

6:23 Someone had a dog in the theater. Okay.

6:27 I have a potentially controversial question.

6:30 I'm ready. Let's get into it.

6:33 I like dogs. Let me just put that out there. And I really, really do like dogs. I wish Andre has been annoying me about getting a dog.

6:47 I have two.

6:48 And I want one, but you have to really be home enough and take care of, and I am inside the house a lot, but like, I don't know. Like a dog is a really, really big commitment.

7:02 Right.

7:03 And you need to be ready for it. You don't want to be the person who gets a dog and then give the dog back.

7:06 Right.

7:07 Okay.

7:07 So I like dogs. Okay. I have a question. Why are people taking their dogs everywhere?

7:16 It's getting crazy.

7:18 Like, why? And again, I piss somebody off, I'm sure. But I am genuinely asking, like, why are you taking your dog everywhere?

7:31 You can't take Fido in the MRI machine. Like, people are just getting– and the tea is that, like, people are taking their dogs everywhere to places dogs don't want to be. It's no longer, it's actually worse for the dog to be at paranormal activity. Right. Fourth row, center.

7:49 Unless it is a service dog. And that's very, very different.

7:51 There's no Bichon Frise that's a service dog.

7:54 I don't think that's true.

7:55 Is that not true?

7:56 It's possible. I think that any dog can be a service dog.

7:59 A teacup Yorkie.

8:00 I mean, maybe it's a not a service dog. Like an emotional support dog?

8:05 Benefit of the doubt. But I was just like... If you're so anxious that you need the dog with you all the time, is this really ableist of me?

8:12 Maybe.

8:13 But you're not so anxious that you're still going.

8:16 To paranormal activity.

8:19 You're getting the poop scared out of you, but you need your dog for comfort? That is actually kind of crazy. Maybe we've gone too far.

8:26 Maybe. I don't know. She's going to get upset with me.

8:28 The woke.

8:30 She's going to get upset with me, but I have a friend who had a dog and she loved this dog. Loved, loved, loved this dog. And she would get upset if we went someplace, like to a restaurant, and they were like, sorry, no dogs.

8:45 Okay.

8:45 And I used to always just be like, well, not everybody. Some people are afraid of dogs, right?

8:50 Is it a big dog?

8:51 Is it?

8:51 It's a really sweet dog. A King Cavalier. So like a sort of a medium size.

8:55 It's pretty well behaved.

8:56 Very well behaved.

8:57 Okay.

8:57 It was a very civilized, medium sized dog.

9:00 I'm okay with that.

9:02 Right. So am I, usually. But you can't. You can't be upset at a restaurant owner who's just like, I'm sorry, I don't want dogs in my space. And also that there are people around you who may not want to be near a dog. Yeah. The dog people are going to come after me.

9:21 Or if they're allergic to a dog.

9:23 Allergic to a dog, afraid of a dog. Yeah. Don't like dogs. Some people don't like dogs.

9:28 Well, I think that's crazy. If you don't like dogs, I think there's something wrong with you.

9:32 Do you remember this person that we knew?

9:34 You can be allergic to dogs. You can be afraid of dogs, but if you just don't like them, you have a problem.

9:37 Do you remember the person that we knew who said.

9:40 That- I like that we're holding hands.

9:42 Your hands are really cold. That they did not like, they didn't like kids or animals. Do you remember?

9:48 I know who you're talking about.

9:49 Do you know who I'm talking about?

9:50 Remember?

9:51 We talked about her.

9:52 Oh, I know her.

9:54 Yeah.

9:54 Yes. It's weird because she seemed like a cat person.

9:57 She did seem like a cat person.

9:59 She seemed like someone who was like- like cats.

10:00 But she was like, and I remember it coming up in the way that she said it. She was just like, I don't like animals and I don't like kids. And I was like, I think it's okay.

10:09 You were like, whatever happened took a morning.

10:11 Well, like, I think it's okay to not like one or the other, but you can't not like both.

10:15 You can't.

10:17 It's okay if you don't like kids, but you like animals. Or it's okay if you like animals and you don't like kids.

10:25 I know the commenters, their fingers are smoking on fire as they're typing under this video.

10:30 I just felt like, whatever, man.

10:32 But I love it. But you know what? We're born with so many fucks to give.

10:36 And I'm running out of them.

10:37 And we're running out of them.

10:38 I'm running out of them.

10:39 I'm running out of them because I've got two broken ankles and I'm seeing paranormal activity.

10:43 With my dog.

10:43 With my service dog. It was a different person. It wasn't even her. It was a different person? I'd be like, all right, she's got, like, I get it. Yeah.

10:50 What's in your algorithm lately?

10:51 Okay, so it was paranormal activity. Okay. Okay, and now there's this guy who makes these glittery drinks, and then he drinks them. His name's, like, Dr. Sips.

11:03 The drinks have glitter in them?

11:04 And then what?

11:05 He makes, like, glittery, it's actually heroin, because it's, like, glittery Halloween cocktails.

11:10 Okay.

11:11 And then, like, Lauren Boebert.

11:12 Ben would never drink that.

11:13 Ben would never. Never. Lauren Bober. Yeah. It's like hopping between politics and Halloween.

11:20 I need to go back to the glittery drink guy.

11:22 It's actually deeply.

11:24 And then what?

11:24 I'm worried. Because he starts the video by taking a giant ice cube and putting it in the glass. But he always pulls the ice cube out of his costume. He's always in like a Halloween costume. We don't know where that ice cube's coming from. And the comments are really worried about where the ice cube is coming from.

11:41 Okay.

11:41 Because it's always... That's enough. Yeah. What about your algorithm, Melissa? Because mine is disturbing.

11:48 My algorithm has been actually incredibly disturbing, actually. I've been getting a ton of the stuff about the Cornell.

11:58 Cornell 7.

11:59 The Cornell 7. Terrifying. And I had said this on my personal social media, and we talked about this before.

12:05 Yeah.

12:06 The amount of people who have to buy into a terrible idea, right? And so the seven men who sexually violated this woman repeatedly, that's one thing. But they were on a group text with about 40 some odd other guys. And I need to understand nobody on that group text Thought that they should say something to somebody because I get it. I get it that you saw this and you were like, oh, get the fuck out of here.

12:42 I don't I want no parts of this. But you knew it was happening. You knew it was going to happen. And these are the same kind of people who love their moms, love their grandmoms, love their sisters, their girlfriends, their partners, their friends. that woman is one of those things to somebody.

13:01 Well, and I know that the Exactly Right Legal team is going to be all over me about this, but I don't care what is going on at Cornell where that is so culturally instituted that none of the 49 people on that text thread thought that there was a red flag there that they needed to raise with the administration.

13:17 There were 1,200 accounts of sexual violence on Cornell campus in the past decade.

13:24 I think.

13:24 1,200 complaints.

13:25 I actually really wonder what the development office is going to do about this. The fundraisers. I mean, the fundraising office. Because I mean, this is really terrible PR, right?

13:38 Yeah.

13:38 Oh, my God. And deservedly so. Yeah. But so what is the conversation in the board of directors meeting? Right.

13:45 Right.

13:46 The trustees. What is the conversation? What is the messaging? And I, because I'm not tapped into that part, but I would love to know what the Cornell alumni think. What has been the chatter?

14:00 Because I imagine– and, like, this is all conjecture, so don't sue me. I imagine the reason why the administration buried this rape on campus and had the campus security, right, they filtered through the accounts to the prosecutor's office. They didn't actually get any firsthand statements from the victim.

14:22 Mm-hmm.

14:22 I imagine they buried it because they didn't want a purifier storm and that they didn't want this. And now it's you type in C-O-R into Google and it fills out the rest.

14:32 And, you know, I think that people at some point or another, especially in the world that we are living in today.

14:40 Right.

14:41 There are no secrets.

14:42 Right.

14:43 There are no secrets. It would have been better. I mean, obviously, this should not have happened to her at all. There should have been a culture on campus of not violating people. However, if this were to happen, they should have gotten in front of it. They should have put their support behind this woman.

15:04 Yeah.

15:05 Looked to see who was involved. People needed to be expelled.

15:09 Yes.

15:09 And no essays. The idea that there was somebody who got.

15:14 And now the Cornell name is synonymous with sexual violence. I mean, truly, if you mention Cornell to someone in America right now, they will fill it out, continue and say, it's like saying Columbine.

15:24 Yeah.

15:24 People don't say, what a great curriculum at that school.

15:26 No.

15:27 Right? Like you say Columbine, they say shot and killed.

15:30 Speaking of which, I just Googled it. That 1200 number. It's 1,200 reports of sexual assault over seven years, which led to 162 formal investigations, which led to seven people getting expelled.

15:45 CJ fact-checking me, that's more accountability than the assailants.

15:49 Correct.

15:50 Literally.

15:51 And the other thing I'm thinking about is, I mean, there's so many parts of this, right? Kids applying to college and Cornell was the dream. Yeah. And now what? Right.

16:02 Right.

16:02 The freshman class of Cornell this year.

16:05 I would love to see what the enrollment numbers are next year.

16:09 The applications for next year. Because Cornell, it's October.

16:12 Yeah. This is the time.

16:13 So there's freshmen on campus. They're bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, ready to go to their first class. And what is it? A media nightmare.

16:22 Yeah. Could you imagine?

16:24 What's going to be the transfer rate?

16:25 Oh, yeah. Very high. Very high. And I've said this before. I will say this again. I don't know how many more examples we need to see to realize that this country does not give a shit about women. They don't care. The president of the United States is a serial sex offender. He is a rapist.

16:47 He's defending the Cornell 7.

16:49 Of course he is. Of course he is.

16:50 He's like, I feel bad for what they're doing.

16:51 I feel bad for them. And we don't want to ruin the lives of these young men. Get the fuck out of here. They do not deserve to work anywhere. Anywhere. And I'm glad I heard, I read somewhere, and I don't know if this is true or not. My understanding is at least two of them were working at a big firm and they got fired. Good.

17:09 Good.

17:10 Good. I.

17:12 It shouldn't be newsworthy when there's accountability.

17:14 I want to see some punishment. It should not be. I want to see some punishment.

17:18 Prosecution.

17:20 So that's been my argument.

17:21 Quite a lot. I got a message. Laura Dunn wants to come back on the podcast. She's a survivor of campus rape and has advocated for this in legislation in D.C. So she's going to come back on next week. She couldn't do it today. But she's going to come. So it'll be next Thursday.

17:39 I mean, I... I love the idea that we have had some really interesting guests who are well-versed in certain topics and that we're able to use them as a resource to have them back on. I just wish we didn't have to.

17:54 Yes.

17:54 You know what I mean?

17:55 We didn't have to keep having on.

17:56 I'm really glad that Karina's going to be on today.

17:58 Because Laura Dunn's coming next week. Karina Lane is coming on today to talk about executions because of that botched execution in Tennessee.

18:04 And I just wish that we didn't have to have them on. Do you know what I mean? It's great to be able to.

18:10 I would love to have a comic on every week. Sure. Yeah, it would be nice to not have to have on the death penalty expert.

18:17 Because of a botched death penalty. Not because we're trying to get educated.

18:19 Not because we don't love her, yeah.

18:21 Not because we're not looking for education, but because we want her to discuss all the ways this went wrong. Yeah.

18:27 Right.

18:28 Yeah. Yeah. Ugh.

18:30 But yeah, it is so, it's so distressing.

18:32 It is distressing. And I mean, and the other, I'll say, sorry, I'll say the other thing that's been in my algorithm is I am.

18:40 I.

18:42 Am so dialed in to this Nolan Wells case. So this country does not care about women at all. And we know that they don't care about young black men either. And I got to tell you, I don't care what they say. Those boys did something to Nolan Wells.

19:04 Well, he didn't drown.

19:05 He didn't drown. He didn't drown. He didn't drown. And his phone was manipulated. Yeah. So you tell me. There's a part of me that just wants to sort of gather up like young black boys and girls and just try and explain to them why. they need to be choosy about who they allow near them. I say this to everybody, all the young people in my life. I say this to KP all the time. You are the most important person to us. And we want you to be safe. We want you to come home every day.

19:44 And not everybody should be allowed to be near you. And you need to be really choosy, no matter how cool you think they are, how much fun you think it is. It's not safe. It's not safe. I find it really upsetting.

19:59 Excuse me. And it's good parenting advice, right? Like just having, making sure your kid is, I mean, I don't have kids, but I can imagine who you surround yourself with is just as important as the choices you're making, whether it's like a dangerous choice or not. Right.

20:15 But I mean, I think, yes, it's important for kids to know that. It's important to bring home that message. But I think it's important for us, right? Like, you know, think about the shitty relationships that you had in your early, you know, in your 20s, in your 30s. Do you know what I mean? And like, or, you know, anyway.

20:32 But yeah, I think Everybody needs to take home that lesson. Be careful. Be really, really choosy. If somebody makes you feel like shit about yourself or you feel uncomfortable. Right.

20:43 It's not even just about like a Nolan Wells situation, right? It's about everything.

20:47 It's about access to you. It is about everything. But I am really thinking about Nolan Wells. And I'm thinking about young people of color who find themselves the only one in their friend group. And you got to be careful. And I make no apologies for that. You know, you have to be careful because it seems to me that we are living in a world where black and brown people, queer people, women are disposable.

21:24 Yeah.

21:24 Right. No, it's true.

21:25 And no one cares about what happens to them. So we need to care about what happens to us. Right. Right. So as a black woman who loves black people, that is what I want to do. I want to protect them.

21:39 I keep thinking about the prosecutor, the chief investigator, that woman, that white woman in Mississippi who held a press conference about how the white kids' families were getting threats.

21:51 Never mind about the dead black kid.

21:55 In your district.

21:56 Right, right.

21:57 Didn't have a press conference over that.

21:59 Right, right. And just looking at Nolan Wells' mom talking about her son, really, really just, it breaks my heart. It's such a waste. It's such a waste of a young life, somebody who was full of potential and.

22:19 I don't know.

22:21 I have like no words. No, I agree.

22:23 It's there's, I mean, there isn't, I don't know if there is anything.

22:27 Right.

22:28 It's just, it's just, it's, um, it's heartbreaking. It really, really is. Yeah. Right. And I mean, and, and the thing about it is, you know, there's, there's no reason, you know, we always trying to, um, We try and have a really good time on our show, right?

22:44 No, I know.

22:45 But we want to also talk about things that make all of us a little uncomfortable because it's important. It's important.

22:54 Yeah, I want people to get involved in that investigation. I think because it is... Mississippi, I feel like people, and it's a black kid, so many people are focused on things like Lindsay Clancy. I keep talking about it, but they came up around the same time in my feed, in my algorithm, in my fan base. And I just feel like that attention needs to- There's not.

23:20 Enough attention on this.

23:20 There's not enough attention on this.

23:21 There's not enough attention on this. There's not enough attention on.

23:26 Don Lemon's doing a great job. Yes. Don Lemon every single day.

23:29 Yes.

23:30 He is.

23:31 He is. But, you know, also the lynchings that are taking place in the South.

23:35 Nancy Grace has, like, come back and, yeah.

23:38 It's just not enough. And, you know, and it doesn't help that, you know, the presence of the United States is a disgusting, reprehensible human being. Right.

23:46 And he's literally, like, it's not even a dog whistle anymore. It's just a whistle.

23:50 Right.

23:51 Like, they're wearing the hoods in public.

23:52 Yeah.

23:52 They are.

23:53 Yes, they are.

23:54 And he's doing the same for the Cornell 7, right? I mean, he's doing the same thing there. So, I mean, these are hard conversations. It doesn't mean we don't have them. And I think having people like Laura Dunn and Corrine Alleyne on to talk about it. So we have some expertise in the room.

24:08 Yeah, we need that.

24:09 Yeah. Okay. We'll be right back. We're going to talk about the death penalty. We're going to talk about the recent botched execution in Tennessee. That defendant is currently on life support. Unbelievable. But Karina Lane is going to take us through that case and talk to us about how did we get here in this country with the death penalty in America. So stick around. Welcome back. This is Under Oath. Today we are pleased to have joining us virtually Karina Barrett Lane, who you may remember from our podcast a few months ago. Karina Barrett-Lane is a professor of law at the University of Richmond School of Law.

24:50 She's one of the nation's leading authorities on the death penalty. And we thought it was important that we invite Karina back here today so we could talk about the Pike case, which is dominating headlines right now in Tennessee. I was actually in Tennessee for a trial for a totally different case at the time that this was happening last week.

25:08 So thank you for joining us.

25:09 It's good to see you, Karina.

25:11 So nice to be here. It's nice to see you again, Michael and Melissa.

25:15 Let's just jump into it, Karina. I would love to know if you could tell us a little bit about this case, give us a brief overview of the background, maybe people who missed the headlines last week.

25:25 She was supposed to be executed by the state of Tennessee last week. They tried multiple times to insert an IV. They were able to get the IV, and then they injected two full 5-grams uh injections of pentobarbital and she didn't die and um you know she's still right now she's still in the hospital on life support apparently she's still.

25:57 Unconscious and so how this sort of how this sort of functions just so people can get sort of like backed up into this is how um this is not uncommon that people have a botched execution in america right this is like a pretty In your research from working on your book, this happens all the time. Maybe not this exact specific pack pattern, but it's pretty common.

26:25 You're so right, Michael. Botched executions really do happen all the time with lethal injection. The botch rate for lethal injection is twice that of other methods. Now, it depends on the year, but typically it's 7% to 8%. All the other methods are around 3%. But in 2022, it was like 35%. One in three of every executions that year was botched. And now we have some executions that have been so botched that the person survives their own execution, which was nearly unheard of before lethal injection.

27:03 And what happens to the person who survives? I mean, are they surviving and they're back in jail or are they sort of surviving by being kept on life support? Yeah.

27:14 Well, we've never had one like in ever to my knowledge. No, I would know. Um, we've never had one where they're being kept on life support where it's, you know, botched and they're in this middle in between space. Um, we have had numerous ones where they've survived their own execution and under current Supreme court precedent, the state can try again.

27:39 So in 2024, the state of Alabama executed two people that it had botched so badly they survived. One of them had been punctured 18 times with a needle, you know, which is just torturous. And then they came back in 2024 and gassed them to death. So You know, oftentimes these are people, this is a geriatric population with really poor health. So a lot of times they die on their own before the state can get around to executing them again.

28:14 Okay.

28:15 And I guess like, why is it that it takes so long for a state to get to an execution with a criminal in most of these Southern states?

28:26 Yeah, that's a really good question, Michael. And I think that's a really important question because the time between death sentence and execution is 21 years now. That's the national average. That's not just Southern states. And I do hear a lot of people saying, well, just hurry up. Krista Pike, she was on death row for 31 years. It was 31 years ago. So she's above the national average. But I do hear people say, hurry up. And I don't know.

28:57 I mean, you tell me what you all think. But for me, at least- I look at this and we now are in the 50th year of the modern era of the death penalty, which started in 1976. We've had 1,670 executions. And in that time, we've also had 203 people exonerated from death row. So when you put those two things together, for every 8.5 people that we've executed, there's one that the state is like, oh, I'm so sorry.

29:29 We got that one totally wrong.

29:30 Yeah.

29:32 And then even aside from actual innocence and exonerations, anywhere from 50% to 70%. of all death sentences are overturned on appeal. Um, and the top two reasons are grossly ineffective assistance of counsel and prosecutorial misconduct. So, you know, those are not misplaced paper clips. Those are serious constitutional errors that go to the truth-seeking function of trial. So I'm like, you know, I'm with Justice Breyer who once said, he wrote, you can have a fast death penalty or a fair death penalty, but you cannot have both.

30:12 Interesting. So the way it's sort of structured now, the duration that it takes from conviction to the actual execution almost serves the defendant, in many instances, right? Because during that time, these are overturned, these are appealed, these are, you know, there's an exoneration. It seems like a significant number of exonerations.

30:39 Yeah, I think that's true.

30:40 I mean, it does, but it also doesn't, right? So like somebody who has been on death row, like Karina said, for 21 years, and then something happens and they're able to, that person being able to be exonerated, that's great. You've been found that you didn't do what you were accused of doing, but you spent all this time in prison.

31:05 Waiting.

31:06 And not just in prison and serving your sentence, but in prison and waiting, anticipating when the day comes where someone's going to, the state is going to kill you basically, right? Yeah.

31:17 We talked about this last time you were here, just sort of like the concept of justice when it comes to a death sentence, right? Like what is that transaction, right? We're saying this person committed this crime, we're going to execute them, and that's going to hopefully give some sort of justice to the victim, to the family. I found that when I was preparing for this interview, when this was in the headlines last week, In conversations I was having with people in my life was this knee-jerk response that I was hearing from people when I brought up death sentence and this person, Krista, Krista Pike. As I was talking to people about this case, the crimes kept coming up. Everybody wanted to talk about what the crimes were.

32:02 Everybody wanted to talk about, well, this happened to this person, this botched execution. Everyone was pointing to the crime.

32:10 Mm-hmm.

32:11 Well, as if the botched execution is what you deserve. That's the punishment worthy of the crime, right? And it just really got me thinking about when we start to whittle away at the amendments, at the Eighth Amendment, and say, oh, well, it only applies to people who don't commit heinous crimes. Or it only applies to, right? Like we start to kind of chip away at the foundation of that. amendment and what it means and how it is applied in the constitution.

32:45 Yeah. And, you know, one thing that I hear from Capitol defenders is that are talking, you know, litigating these execution method cases is my client was sentenced to death. He was not science sentenced to torture.

33:00 Right. Yes.

33:02 You know, and it's like, right. And here's an interesting thing about, that crime. So it's a terrible crime. We should just, we should talk about that. It was a terrible crime.

33:13 What was the conviction?

33:14 I mean, it was capital murder, but she was with her boyfriend and they lured this, you know, friend or, or, or, you know, a classmate into the woods. They bludgeoned her to death. They even took a little piece of her, of her skull. And then, um, a pentagram of was carved into the body. And so it really fed into this sort of satanic panic that was going on in the 80s and 90s at the time. And so, yes, terrible.

33:46 But also, you look at it, she was 18 years old. And when you look at the little clip of her when she's sentenced to death, she's got acne all over her chin. She's crying for her mom. She was born with fetal alcohol syndrome. She had suffered horrendous, horrendous sexual abuse all throughout her childhood. And then she was also violently raped as a teenager. She, you know, she goes to trial, the boyfriend, right? who allegedly is the one that carved the pentagram, he gets life with the possibility of parole. So he could walk, you know, and yet, you know, here we are. And I think one of the things that I had heard from her, and this wasn't her last statement. This is when the death warrant came down. So she had a date and she said,

34:43 I'm just going to quote a couple lines. She said, I was a mentally ill 18 year old kid. It took me numerous years to even realize the gravity of what I'd done and even more to accept how many lives I affected. I took the life of someone's child, sister, friend. It sickens me now to think I had the ability to commit such a crime. And I think what's interesting is the death penalty, it requires us to freeze someone in a moment in time.

35:13 Right.

35:14 Like you are this person, your wholesome, everything before, everything after is in this one, you know, heinous act. And you look at her and I'm like, okay, who are we executing?

35:27 Right.

35:28 You're going to tell me that is a monster. That is someone who's amoral, that person. Right. Because she's not the same person. And that's what's hard, I think.

35:36 Yeah. Do you think that because this case has gotten so much attention and it's not the first botched case, do you have a sense that there's some kind of a change coming that maybe we as a society, we are going to look at the death penalty in a different way? That maybe they'll say, you know what, this is not who we want to be anymore. You know what I mean? And so, like you said, that attorney that you had spoken to had said to you that their client was sentenced to death, not sentenced to torture.

36:10 So is that something that you think is going to have an impact on how we move forward?

36:18 Melissa, I love your optimism.

36:20 I know, isn't it nice?

36:23 I love the hope, even in the question. And, you know, I'm like, I mean, I don't know. If there's any good that will come of this, I think... I hope it will spur conversations not only about how we kill, but about whether we should be killing. And I said this, I think, the last time I was on your show, but I think lethal injection really just does one thing well. Like, it is so deeply problematic. This death row population is a geriatric population with histories of poor health. IV drug use, terrible, notoriously weak veins. She's an example of that, but it could happen to any state in any person. They can't get the medical doctors. They can't get the drugs. It's just, it's so expensive. It's all under the table. So why

37:22 are they doing it? And I think lethal injection just does one thing well, and that is it really hides the what an execution is. You know, it hides the violence inherent in taking someone's life. And I just, I was thinking about this statement I had read, the heart stops reluctantly. And, you know, what they were talking about is before the heart is ready to stop beating on its own, it takes physical force. It takes violence to stop the heart from beating.

37:56 Okay.

37:56 So it could be a car accident or homicide or an execution, but it's going to take physical force. It's going to take violence. And the thing that lethal injection has been doing for the last 45 years is allowing us to deny that, to tell ourselves, These people are just drifting off to forever sleep. It's like putting down a beloved pet. And the truth is, it's nothing like that.

38:23 And they've used a paralytic and they've done this and that to make us think that. But then you have these instances where it's like, oh, wait a minute. This is actually a really violent act.

38:36 And we're sort of covering it up with a medical procedure and sort of like glossing over it. And then I also think that Even just to get there, the notion that, what would it be? I'm bad at math, but you said there were 1,600.

38:50 Yeah, there were 1,670. You got to keep an eye on Florida. They're executing people left and right. But 1,670 and then 203. So I just rounded up to 1,700 and rounded down to 200 and got 8.5. That's a really high exoneration rate. It's terrible.

39:10 It's a terrible number. And if we're looking at trials, we're executing someone now. The trial took place 30 years ago.

39:17 Absolutely.

39:18 How were we looking at evidence back then?

39:20 Yes.

39:20 How were we looking at biased juries back then? What was the DNA samples like in the 80s? You know what I mean? I think- it gets so concerning and the further back you look and then the evidence is older and older and older. For me, people are always asking me, how could you possibly defend a criminal? How could you possibly defend someone who did something wrong? I'm like, where's the accountability? We've got to make sure that if anyone's going away for anything, that accountability was followed and that they're there because that's exactly what happened and they're serving the time for that crime, not because we accidentally put them there through some oversight. Right.

40:02 I love, Michael, it's such a defense lawyer thing, but I love that that is your perspective because I was talking to someone else and they said, well, what if we could get it right? What if we didn't have to worry about that? What if we were sure? And I said to him, they're always sure. I feel that the juries, I don't think any jury is going into this going like, oh yeah, let's give him death. And so you think of the Texas cases and it's like, no, now they're dealing with shaken baby syndrome. But the people that got death, on that evidence, you know, you had experts saying, no, I'm sure you could never get this brain damage, you know, just by somebody falling down the stairs, you had to have done something. Now they're like, oops,

40:45 sorry about that.

40:46 We were wrong.

40:48 Same thing with fire, you know, arson evidence, same thing with bite mark evidence, you know, and so same thing with eyewitness testimony, false confessions, confessions, no one would ever, confess to a murder unless they did it. Why would they do that? And yet, we have DNA exoneration.

41:06 It happens often. Yeah.

41:08 Yeah.

41:09 So, this execution was clearly botched. She's now on life support. What happens now? Like, where does this go from here?

41:18 Boy, I think we're all holding our breath on that one. So, what we know is that if she recovers, the state can try again.

41:28 Right?

41:29 So, like, Now, I will say, just because there was a botched execution does not stop the state from trying again. The state can try again. But there's also a competency requirement to executions. So the state has to show that she is aware of the state trying to kill her and the reason. She doesn't have to remember the crime.

41:55 Why is there a competency requirement?

41:58 I mean, it goes to the basic punishment purposes of the death penalty.

42:02 They want people to know that.

42:04 Do you know what you did?

42:05 This is why. But, you know, there was a case several years ago and the man had organic brain damage and it was, you know, something that you could see. Like, there was no chance. He was malingering. He didn't remember. He couldn't say his ABCs. And the court was like, yeah, you know, I think, you know, but as long as the state tells him we're We're killing you for this.

42:30 And as long as he understands it in that moment, I think we're good, you know? And so for her, even though a botched execution wouldn't necessarily stop the state from trying again, if she's, you know, got permanent brain damage or she's, you know, on life support or something like that, she's not competent to be executed. So they can't, you know, for that reason, they can't try again.

42:55 Okay. Okay. Wow. Wow.

42:58 So it's so heavy. Sorry.

43:00 It just feels so heavy.

43:02 Tennessee.

43:03 Oh, Tennessee.

43:05 Oh, Tennessee. CJ hit us with Tennessee's state slogan. Tennessee done this before. They're out here botching executions. They're known for it.

43:21 I had this conversation with some friends over the weekend about this particular case. And the amount of people who don't know how this happens is astounding. And again, and the only reason why I know is because of the conversation that we had. And so here I am educating other people about this thing. And I think that people do think you just kind of like drift off to sleep and this is completely nonviolent. And that's why I was wondering- Because of this case, the people who've been paying attention now know that it is not quiet or gentle, that it can be very violent. And that's why I was wondering, is there any sort of chatter about how we should go forward? This is not about setting somebody

44:10 like Krista Pike free. There's a difference. There's a difference between making sure that she serves out her life sentence versus being executed or not really executed. Because now she's in this in-between place. I mean, she's alive, but barely, right? Something is keeping her alive. I don't know.

44:34 I really like that you circled back to this, Melissa, because I think right now states, executing states around the country are looking at her situation and saying, that could happen to us.

44:47 Sure.

44:48 Easy peasy. That could totally happen to us. All of these, you know, people have notoriously weak veins. So like what happened to her could happen to all of, you know, anyone. And I wonder if they're thinking it's 31 years later. Let's think about what we've done. This poor victim's mother has been waiting 31 years. And of course she's bitter. And, you know, of course she's livid. And who's talking about the victim? Everyone now is talking about Krista.

45:22 Right.

45:22 Yes.

45:23 Yeah.

45:24 And it's like, I wonder if states are thinking to themselves. I kind of hope they are. But again, Melissa, I don't know that I have your optimistic spirit. But I wonder if states are thinking, gosh, we can take life without asking some poor prison guard to kill somebody.

45:42 Right.

45:43 We can take life. It's called life without parole. They're never getting out. And by the way, you will save millions and you'll let that poor victim family go. Because here's the thing.

45:55 They're stuck in limbo. They don't get the closure.

45:58 Right. I feel like we, if we were really being honest, you know, with the, with the surviving, you know, family members of the, of these homicide victims, we would say to them, you just lost the most important person in your life. And now to vindicate that life, we're going to take a couple decades of your life. Yes. And you will not move on. You're going to be there with all the appeals, all of the clemency hearings. You're going to know when they go to the infirmary, you're going to be stuck in this holding pattern and you.

46:30 Will get there.

46:32 And it's just like, why wouldn't you just let them, you know, let those people go take the money that you'd saved. I mean, put it in a victim compensation fund, put it into solving cold cases, which are now at an all-time high. Like, I just, I wonder if they're having that conversation.

46:52 They're not.

46:54 Okay, so you're not as optimistic. No, not at all.

46:57 You know what it is? I'm not actually optimistic. I wish that I was, which is why I ask questions like that, right? Because show me that people are thinking. Show me that people are considering that, having those conversations. Like you just said, hey, you know what? Because that makes me feel like people care about justice, actual justice.

47:21 Because like you said, now Colleen Slemmer's family Colleen has gotten forgotten.

47:27 Right. We're all talking about Krista.

47:28 We're talking about Krista.

47:29 Right.

47:30 And so had they just said, you know what, we're going to put Krista in prison forever, then her family would have been able to say, you know what, this person is, this is the best that we could do. They're going to be in prison forever. And that's the end of it. And now we can try and move on from this horrible loss that we've suffered. Right.

47:52 That's the thing. Like all the research shows closure comes from closure. Like closure comes when.

47:58 The case is done.

47:59 And that's not the death penalty. Here's another thing that I was thinking about because I was recently in Oklahoma. And I was thinking, you know, who do we talk about when we're talking about the Oklahoma City bombing? Who do we talk about? We talk about Timothy McVeigh, right? We talk about the guy we executed. But do you know he had a co-defendant? He had a co-defendant. He got life. Do you even know his name?

48:24 I don't.

48:25 We don't.

48:26 Terry Nichols, you know?

48:27 And it's just like, if you want to throw someone into the trash bin of history and never talk about them again, it's that guy that got the life sentence. Everyone's forgotten about him. He's just dying in a cell.

48:41 Well, I mean, you brought it up earlier. Krista's boyfriend at the time was a co-defendant here, right? I mean, he had his own trial. He got life in prison. It sounds like some of.

48:54 With parole.

48:55 Right. And some of the conviction was maybe put upon her. Like there was a deal struck with the prosecutor. Like some of the maiming of the body was potentially... He testified against her maybe? I don't know. But the notion that she got the death penalty and he got life with parole for the same exact crime.

49:16 Right. Oh, yeah.

49:18 Just illustrates... how you can ask 12 jurors and get 13 opinions about any given case.

49:28 You know, the other thing about Krista Pike's case, speaking from a lawyer's point of view, is all of the abuse that she had been through, all of that stuff, Her lawyer at the time, like the jury didn't see any of that. And so she had a claim of ineffective assistance of counsel. And the Sixth Circuit looked at it and said, oh, geez, like this is a constitutional violation.

49:56 This woman may get a new trial. We're just going to put the execution on hold until we can actually get a full hearing on whether or not we can even kill her.

50:08 Right.

50:09 Yeah.

50:09 And this United States Supreme Court lifts the stay on the shadow docket. No briefing. No, no opinion.

50:18 They just said go forward.

50:20 They just said go for it.

50:22 And that was recent. That was the current Supreme Court.

50:25 Yeah.

50:25 Wow.

50:25 Yeah.

50:26 That's our pro-life court.

50:28 Right.

50:28 Yes, exactly.

50:31 So, you know, they're pro-life until you're born.

50:34 Right.

50:34 Yeah, exactly. I call that pro-birth.

50:37 After that, yes, exactly. Yeah, that's pro-birth. Yeah. Wow. You're blowing my mind.

50:44 Yeah. I mean, and I hope that you're blowing the minds.

50:47 Of everybody who hears us. Yeah, a lot of people.

50:49 Yeah.

50:49 I mean, your book is so.

50:51 It's, again, because so many people really don't understand. They're thinking about vengeance and justice, but this is It's not.

51:01 It's nuanced, right? Just look at fetal alcohol syndrome alone. What we knew about it, what we thought about it as society in the 80s versus today, I mean, the studies on it alone, the notion, she would have been tried probably as an incompetent person with a severe disability today versus in the 80s.

51:25 Or at least it would have been introduced. Here's what you need to know about Krista. This is how she grew up. This is what happened to her. She's been fighting this uphill battle her entire life because of X, Y, and Z. But the jury never heard any of those things. So she was just this monster.

51:43 Who did this thing.

51:45 She was just this monster who did this thing.

51:47 Right.

51:47 Did the boyfriend testify and say... It was all her idea, right? Like, we don't know.

51:52 We don't even know. We don't even know.

51:54 Do you cover similar cases to this in your book?

52:00 Oh, my goodness. I mean, you know, the book, I don't make an argument in the book at all. What I do is relentlessly document what the state is doing in our name. And so it's story after story after story after story. that are just like this. And I think what people should know is this is inherent in the project of lethal injection. You're going to have veins that you can't get into and have to puncture 18 times.

52:35 You're going to have veins that collapse. And so just like in her case, the drugs are going into the surrounding tissue and then you've got chemical burns and I mean, this is inherent in this. You know, what you were saying about, you know, what the jury heard and didn't hear, it's important to realize that at trial, it's literally life or death. It is true life, life without parole. You're never getting out or death. And so that's the stakes on the table. And so what a jury is looking at is, is this person such a monster? So bad.

53:17 That they are the worst of the worst. And when you have someone who's been sexually abused from the start, who didn't have a chance from the start, like that's when you look and say, they should, you know, as Melissa said, they're never getting out. I'm not saying let them out. Right. What I am saying is, is that person the worst of the worst? That's your worst of the worst? The one that didn't have a chance from the start?

53:40 Right. And is that how it's being framed to the jury?

53:43 Yeah. Yeah.

53:45 Probably not.

53:45 Okay.

53:46 Well, thank you so much for joining us. I so appreciate you coming on at the last minute and talking about this case. I saw it in the headlines and I thought we had to have Karina on. So thank you for joining us.

53:55 It's good to see you and great to talk to you again. Thank you so much.

53:58 Thank you. Thanks for having me.

54:00 Of course.

54:00 You all are amazing.

54:02 This is Tales from the DMs. We're going to read all your wicked and wild and crazy comments from the internet. We're going to get into it. We're going to read your reviews. Some of y'all need to put the fucking pen down.

54:14 Friends, friends. What do I always say? While Michael is a lawyer, he's not your lawyer. So get your own. We had a lot of really fun feedback from our chat with Clay Aiken. And I will tell you that I walked away being very charmed. He was so funny. He was so funny and so real. And it just was, you know, we end up with.

54:39 People on our show sometimes because I got drunk and DM to them from the back of a Uber at four in the morning. And I think Clay might've been one of those folks. And then I wake up and sometimes they respond.

54:49 I love that.

54:50 And then they're like, yeah, CJ booked them. Let's do it. So, uh, someone said, I didn't realize Clay was this funny. I love it. The three of you together is amazing. Thank you. Uh, I've watched many interviews of Clay. This has been one of his funniest by far. So glad you had him on. Not forgetting, he is an awesome singer too. Really, we didn't ask him to sing.

55:09 Is he allowed to sing?

55:11 I guess it's his song. Next time we have him on.

55:16 I don't know if people are allowed to sing on our show. CJ, are people allowed to sing their songs on our show?

55:21 No, it's probably owned by some record label, but he could have sung like Happy Birthday.

55:27 Oh, right.

55:28 Okay.

55:28 Don't get me started on Happy Birthday.

55:30 What's wrong with Happy Birthday?

55:31 I don't know. Do we have time for this story? Well, I'm going to tell the Happy Birthday song story next episode because it's a whole thing. It was a whole nightmare. Anyway, a lot of people love the bell. Why? Get my fucking agent on the phone now. Sophie has a question about Nolan Wells. Since there's a grand jury declined to bring charges, any next step for the family to seek justice?

55:57 Can they bring it in front of a grand jury again?

55:59 Yes.

55:59 So grand juries, you can go back if you have no evidence. There's no double jeopardy in grand juries. So it is super sus to me that the grand jury went forward without all of the information. I think it's– my perspective on that was that– Thank you so much. There's a lot of political influence there. So that was sort of my POV watching that grand jury go down.

56:43 I think there probably will be some additional grand jury scrutiny. But so it ain't over. Right. Yeah. What were you laughing at?

56:53 Somebody. Sorry. I was just reading somebody. Her name is Krista. She sent us a really long message and I was reading it.

57:04 But.

57:05 I read the part where she says, P.S. On your May 11th episode, Transracialism, we have questions still. Melissa talked about how upset she gets when people spell her name wrong and said it's really her parents' fault. I don't remember saying that, but okay. I'm here to confirm that it is, in fact, 100% her parents' fault. I'm dead.

57:28 I love that.

57:30 I love that so much. Just catching straight.

57:32 Yeah, yeah.

57:32 It's okay.

57:33 Malbranch family.

57:34 Oh.

57:35 I know your memory is probably terrible. It is. I don't remember you. I met you at the My Favorite Murder Brooklyn show. Of course I remember. Yeah, I remember that show. I couldn't speak.

57:46 Uh-oh.

57:47 See a doctor. You saw the excitement and asked if I'd like to take a picture, which I accepted. I do that sometimes. I feel like such an egomaniac when I'm like, do you want a photo with me? Because people sometimes freeze up. And I don't think it's because I'm famous. I think it's because I'm enormous. I'm huge.

58:08 And so people, and then they're like, all right, Michael, I'm like six, five.

58:14 Are you?

58:15 Yes.

58:15 Six, five.

58:16 Get the bell. Where's my bell?

58:19 I don't know.

58:20 Okay.

58:20 We lost our bells.

58:21 What's on your phone? Okay.

58:22 So, this I think is funny. Do you remember a couple of months ago that somebody said they like our show a lot, but they get annoyed at me because I uh-huh and mm-hmm all the time? Do you remember that? Okay.

58:35 Can I tell you?

58:36 What?

58:36 Melissa came into the studio that day. She was so mad.

58:39 I wasn't mad.

58:40 You were mad.

58:41 I wasn't mad. No, no, no. I was not mad. I was just like, oh, that's annoying.

58:45 She was like, she.

58:46 That's annoying.

58:46 And then you were acting weird. So I'd say something and she'd be crickets. Say nothing. I would say anything. The lights are on. No one's home.

58:55 So this person, Yay Gadget, did an update. No, I love it. They re-reviewed the review. Update. Melissa heard my feedback and those I hear you, I'm following along sounds are much better.

59:09 Big improvisation.

59:11 Yes. That is sick.

59:14 That is sick. Not the people pleaser in you. Yes.

59:19 Because honestly, I did not know that about myself until I sort of really listened back. And I was like, I do do that. And that is very annoying. I should stop. So thank you, Yay Gadget.

59:30 And if you have any complaints about anything I say or any of my idiosyncrasies, you can keep them to yourself.

59:36 Keep them coming. I like them.

59:37 Keep them coming. Melissa likes them. She'll eat that up. Unless you're telling her to get a dog, in which case she's going to punch you.

59:42 There is a really cute dog.

59:44 Get the fucking dog.

59:45 I can't.

59:46 Why?

59:46 Arthur Weasley does not like other animals.

59:49 I'll get over it. No. What do you mean?

59:53 Arthur Weasley does not like other animals.

59:55 I guess he's got three legs. He's already got enough going on.

59:57 He does. I mean, that was the whole thing. He got two broken ankles. When he got adopted, they were like, do you have any animals in your home?

1:00:07 And I was like, no.

1:00:09 And they were like, he doesn't really like other animals. And I was like, okay. So I can't get a dog. All right.

1:00:18 Well, thank you for watching this episode. We'll see you next week.

1:00:21 Bye.

1:00:25 This has been an Exactly Right production recorded at iHeart Studios, hosted by me, Michael Foote.

1:00:30 And me, Melissa Malbranch. Our producer is CJ Ferroni.

1:00:33 This episode is edited by Mark Schroeder.

1:00:35 Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker is Patrick Kottner.

1:00:40 Our theme song was composed by Tom Breifogel with artwork from Charlotte Delarue and Vanessa Lilac, with photography by Brad Obono.

1:00:46 Brief Recess is executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.

1:00:51 You can find me on Instagram at Department of Redundancy Department or on TikTok at Michael Foote.

1:00:56 And I'm on both Instagram and TikTok as Melissa Malbranch.

1:00:59 Got legal questions? Reach out at briefrecess at exactlyrightmedia.com. Listen to Brief Recess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And of course, we're a podcast with video. Search for Brief Recess on YouTube.