ACOTAR: Creatures of Prythian Deep Dive | The Suriel, The Wyrm, The Kelpie, and More!

0:00 We now have the possibility that the men guard worm could also get out of the middle. And we have references to these areas, specifically in the Night Court that have been carved out of mountains. Yeah, in the library, carved out by some digging beast. And we have a digging beast. This sweatshirt complements your eyes beautifully.

0:33 It's like the same color. It works so well. It looks great. Thank you. You're welcome. It is the exact same color, which is a little weird actually. The exact same color. Yeah, it's the same color, but it looks good. Thank you. Yeah, I also started literally because of the amount of times, the like percentage of time that I see my face relative to the percentage of time that I used to see my face is obviously like dramatically increased. So now I have self tanning drops four days ago. I am, I've booked a like this is so dumb. This is so dumb.

1:05 But I like desperately need my haircut and this fancy ass salon. I know this fancy ass salon opened up near me and I'm like, I think I'm just going to, for the first time in my life, get a fucking big girl haircut. And like because like they do like a consultation and I'm like, I usually go and I'm like patient.

1:22 Yeah, they're like, if you're new, we're going to do like a consultation for you. I'm like, OK, fuck it. I don't know. I'm 33. I don't know, look. At your hair and then send you home. They're also going to cut it. They're also going to cut it, but it's like when you're new, it's like like come early, we'll do like a 30 minute consultation or something. 30 minutes, either a scam.

1:41 Yeah, they're like leave an hour and 45 minutes for this haircut. I'm like, Oh my God. But I booked it because I don't know. I don't know what's happening to me anymore, but it's really funny. They're likely talk about for 30 minutes. I don't know. I don't think it's actually going to take an hour and 45 minutes with me.

1:55 I hope not. But they're like come how you normally style your hair. I'm like, yo, you want you want to see how I normally style? This is how I normally style my hair, okay? This. I mean, they're going to stop doing that. This is me that is. Going to make your hairline go like my Now I know, which is why I no longer do that.

2:12 I know it's so bad, but it's just like the messy bun is so easy, yeah. Used to exclusively get my hair cut at like what whatever the Supercuts equivalent is. And then my sister is not like that. Like my sister has always been a big girl haircut sort of person because she gets her hair colored. And I feel like if you get your hair colored, you also get your hair cut. Yeah.

2:33 Like when you get it colored, like it's like, it's kind of like a one deal situation. Yeah, so she found this person who does air dry friendly haircuts, like specifically cuts your hair so that it looks good when it is air dried. And so I went and got my haircut by that woman. She's based in New York City. And honestly, it's the most technically talented haircut I've ever.

2:58 That's not really correct. English that hair artist highest. Level of skill. Highest level of skill I've ever like, like there was picking up random strands of hair and like doing things with yeah, scissor at the end. And I mean, my hair does look better. I suppose it looks better air dried now than it did. I mean it's too long now, but when it was first cut it really did look better so.

3:21 Yeah, I mean, that's what I'm hopefully going to tell her. I'm going to be like, look, I don't blow dry my hair. I don't do anything to it. I just, I don't know, I we'll see what happens. We'll see what happens. But yes, it's exactly what you said. I'm like, I see my face so much more often now that I used to.

3:35 I'm like, whoa, OK, this is like we're going to buy some products. I don't know. This is how it happens. This is why all those like 20 year olds are out here like using like eye cream and like deep anti wrinkle cream every night because they're all on TikTok all day. Like they were just born on camera of like, is this good? Yeah, I don't know.

3:54 I don't, I don't know. I'm not sure. But now I'm looking at myself and I'm like I need concealer and I need Tamlux face drops in my lotion. Yeah, well, you, you, you're glowing and. Your sweatshirt masks your eyes and but I do have you have less of this. I've actually noticed I have like very high variability between summer and winter in my.

4:18 With your with your skin tone. Yeah, yeah. Like if I were Foundation, I would have two shades apart. Yeah. I don't know my skin, I can get really tan in the summer, but I think I have a like high naturally. Naturally I'm a little, a little higher. Yeah. It's that Irish German blood I got going.

4:37 Which makes no sense. I know, I know. It's got to be. Literally it's got to be I don't even know what it is. Well one time my grandma told me we were black Irish so we were like originally Spanish. I don't even know if that's true. This is just like my family lore. So like way, way, way, way, way back.

4:53 Sure. Like we were Spanish, but even that like, like Spaniards. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know what it is, but yes, yeah, cool. Or someone lied, someone cheated somewhere. That's much more likely with my family. History But I mean have you guys done the ancestry like 23andMe? Well actually my uncle did it and like so I was raised I was told basically my dad is 100% Irish like 7 kids like classic Irish, Roman Catholic, New York, Long Island family and my mom is basically 100% German. But then my dad's brother did the 23andMe and I think we got back like Albanian.

5:30 Where the fuck did that come from? I have not done it personally, but. Yeah, All right. Well, anyways, hi, I'm Ronnie, I'm Abby, and this is Dragons in the Details, the podcast that helps you better understand your favorite fantasy books over the course of an undetermined number of episodes. We are currently covering A Court of Thorns and Roses, the series also known as ACOTAR by Sarah J Maas.

5:56 Disclaimer These episodes will contain spoilers for that entire series, the entire ACOTAR series. We will announce any other mass for spoilers ahead of time. We keep them to the second-half, so we have an ACOTAR only spoiler and then we have a mass versus spoiler section. We announce the mass versus spoilers ahead of time.

6:13 Another disclaimer, this podcast is rated R. Do not listen to it with your children, at least without supervision. That's what rated R means. We've learned Each week we dive into a specific topic in depth. This week we are digging into the various creatures of Prythian who make up quite the ragtag bunch, so we'll talk about. The Menagerie.

6:36 We've got a menagerie, truly. We come with receipts. We have quotes to back up any theories so you can follow along if you are skeptical. Happy you want to cover announcements? Think it is possible, I could be wrong because I'm really bad at anniversaries, but I think it is possible that this episode will be released on our one year anniversary. So guys, it's been a whirlwind of a year if it is our one year anniversary either way.

7:01 I don't think it's going to be on the anniversary because I don't think it falls on the same date. But yes, I think it's like the equivalent, like the 52, yeah, the 52 week, yeah. So happy birthday to us. Thank you to all of you guys. And I remember it because it's like a month before, you're more or less a month before your birthday. And I'm like, Oh yeah, that's the date. But we can cut that too if you want. I don't care.

7:25 People can know my birthday. People can know. We'll probably talk about it on my birthday. Yeah. So just thank you to all of you. I don't think when we started, we had any idea what this would become. I don't think we thought it would become this in our wildest dreams. There's a lot of you here. We're we're just, we're just really thankful. So I'm just saying thank you from us here. One year later.

7:48 No, guys, I cannot even tell you when we started. This was like, all right, let's just fucking try this. If you guys recall, we had I had horrible audio issues in our first couple episodes because I was like, this isn't going to last. I don't need to invest in inviting for yeah, which is now 2 and three because we've combined our Satan episode back into one episode.

8:07 No, no, it's three and four. It was four and five, but yes. Oh, yes, yeah, we're back. We think we're we're we're not back. We've always been here, but we think we're better now. We hope we're better now. We're learning. We're just making it up as we go along. So thanks for being with us. All right, deep dive music as always brought to you by Schwoodley. That is SCHWOODLEY.

8:27 He is also doing our sound editing at this point. So shout out to Schwoodley. Check them out on Spotify if you have not. He puts together really great, awesome music and I personally love him. Literally. I see you put this in Youtubers. We hear, we hear your comments. We're going to go back to the regular episodes on YouTube. We got you.

8:46 No problem. Which means you will be hearing this announcement on you. Well, no, but if anybody switched over to Spotify, like if you're hearing this, you switched over to a podcasting platform, we heard your feedback. You want the banter on YouTube. The banter is coming back to YouTube. So if you do it. Again.

9:01 You're getting it. All of our banter and if you don't like it you could just Fast forward. We will not be insulted. If you're like, I'm here for the theories but these girls are weird. We have chapters, you can enjoy them. Season 3. Season 3. So guys, we are wrapping up our Akutar episodes. I believe we only have including this one for more planned Akutar episodes. We are wrapping up.

9:24 It's been an awesome journey. Season 3. We've made this announcement before. We're making it every week for the remainder of our Akutar season is going to be on Crescent City. If you want to keep listening to us. If you have not read Crescent City, we recommend you start right now. These are long books.

9:42 These are long books. They are great books. They are lore heavy books. It is going to be such a fun season. I am so fucking excited. Honestly, I was doing a lot of Crescent City prep for this episode. I'm really, really excited to dive into it. But we recommend that you guys start. If you have not, and we know that a lot of you have and we know that a lot of you are hesitant about Crescent City, I would recommend trying it.

10:04 What's the worst that can happen? Try it, read 50 pages, see if you're in, see if you're into it at the like. What is the worst thing? That we read 5 chapters. Just five chapters, I would read 5 chapters and then and you're going to know pretty quick, pretty quick. Other than that, we are a small podcast. We are trying to grow.

10:20 We're doing this spiel every week. If you listen to us, if you like us, whatever platform you're at, Spotify, I see you guys fucking love you. Please subscribe. It really helps us out. We're going to try to grow. We're going to try to bring in more to this podcast and the more numbers we have, the more data that we can show, the more that we can grow it.

10:38 We hear you guys want merch. We're always getting asked for merch. We're getting asked for visual diagrams, visual aids. We want to do all of it. We want to give it all to you guys. We want to do it all. But to do that, we need subscribers. We need to show people that this is kind of worth their time and effort and money.

10:53 And we love you guys. So if you want to subscribe, that would be hugely helpful to us. I think that's it on the announcements front. Agreed. All right, corrections, omissions, social media shoutouts. Abby, do you have any to share with the class? I do not for acatar. OK, I have one. So this is a YouTube comment from CGS 9787.

11:14 I think I've actually read shout outs from you before. So thank you for for all of your comments. I think you're a frequent commenter and this was a precog that is actor only. I wanted to to call it out and also just talk about how sick I think this would be for actor 6 if this ends up true. As always, I enjoyed the chat.

11:34 My Monday is already starting on a happy note. We love when we do that. Thank you so much. My precog is wacky and it has to wait until book 6 as they all do, but I'm convinced Nesta's powers represent the Cauldron, Elaine's represents the Mother, and Farrah is all those other forces as she has all the elements I am willing to die on the mountain of. Elaine is the voice in the bog.

11:53 The description is so her. Also, Elaine is holding Pharaoh's hand during Nick's birth. Can I prove it that she is using her power at that time? Nope. So maybe it's something, maybe it's nothing. That's so us. But I can't wait for book sex. Perhaps I'll read this in a year and think about how silly I was. I hadn't considered the Dark Mother. That was kind of the theory.

12:12 I think this is so interesting because I think we had talked about like kind of off kilter theory that maybe that was Elaine's voice, but not too in depth. And I think that would be such a wild twist. Not too wild, but like that would set up Elaine's powers to be so much bigger and so much cooler than they are currently being set up to be. Like that would be so sick if Elaine was in the background going through the manifestation of her powers all this time and actually guiding Nesta in a way that we did not really appreciate the entire time.

12:48 I don't know that I necessarily feel that that has been the case all of the times that Nesta was being spoken to by this woman, by this female voice that's kind of in her head, especially when she's kind of picking up the harp, because I think that seems to be a force that's much, much bigger. But if if it is really at any point, then Elaine being this like force this voice that is like seeing Nesta and guiding Nesta this like seer like entity would be so cool if we found out later that that has been like manifesting for her in the background. I think it's really cool theory.

13:21 So. I agree, I think it's a really cool theory. I we got a couple comments about the idea of that voice actually being Elaine and not the mother, which I do think is an interesting idea. I agree that I don't think we've seen anything thus far that would necessarily tie it to that, except that they're both kind of like soft and gentle. It would be cool.

13:45 I guess that's all I have to say. Yeah, I realized I had a omission for mass first, but we can start talking about it here. I don't think there's any reason not to talk about it here. And this would go completely against what you just said and I really hope they're not the same idea. This is from Diary of a Night Lizard and I know that you were pinging Liz on our Discord because she's also on our discord.

14:07 So shout out to Liz. We posted a clip about the mother's voice being described as soft and gentle. Liz pointed out that it is also that is also almost word for word how Cassian's mother is described. So the quote we have for that. This is in Frost and Starlight chapter 3. Cassian scanned the snow COVID pass. His memories here were murky mud and cold and two small fires, but he could recall a lilting, soft voice and gentle, slender hands.

14:34 It was all he had of her. So we have the voice called out and we have the hands called out, which is exactly what we get for the mother, and it is very, very similar to the descriptions we had for the mother. So was Cassian's mother actually the mother, which would be interesting, right? Because her story's kind of unfinished. We don't really know what happened to her Would also mean she basically abandoned her child. But maybe she did that for reasons we don't really know. But like he was, you know, sent to an Illyrian. Well, not abandon him, but like she let him get sent to an Illyrian working up at 3 years old and like live outside and like the fucking awful mountains. So not great.

15:11 But I thought I it is so similar to the mother and it's a great call out. And it kind of gets to the idea that we've talked about about Cassian, if the mother is shepherding Nesta and if the mother is Cassian's mother, was Cassian actually like made quote UN quote for Nesta? And hopefully Elaine is not the mother because that would mean that Cassian is Nesta's nephew, which would be really fucked up.

15:32 So those theories don't work together. Yeah, yeah, definitely don't work together. Yeah, yeah. We should continue talking about that in Mass first. We will, we will. But I wanted our Akutar only listeners have a little, a little we could talk about that. Yeah, I think it's a really great idea. So shout out to you.

15:49 Liz, shout out. Liz. Yeah. All right, fun question for this week. What is one question you know you'd ask the surreal if you could? I don't know. Can you go first so I have some inspiration? I mean, I have a list of seven. When is ACUTAR 6 being released? Like what do you mean? That's a good one. That's a good one.

16:06 Well, I was thinking more. About like my life. What choice can I make right now to most improve my life long term? Like pretend you're going to a psychic. For eight operate. Who is Ersten? Who is Ersten? Is a good one. Who is ersten? I think I would ask her her, her the serial. Did you just channel a psychic visit in your head and you saw a woman? This serial with a Durban, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Fake crystal ball.

16:33 I don't know how to. I don't know how deep to go. I do feel like I'm coming to a crossroads in my life at some point, and I want to know which path to take, what would be better for me? And I would consult the serial on that. I. And I think you would probably consult the cereal on that. Big time, big time. I wasn't going to go there in front of all four thousand of our listeners or 4000 of our subscribers. Got it out. 10 how many how many listeners do we have a week? I don't know 10,000 but yes guys, I am coming to a crossroads in my life.

17:04 I would like these surreals advice on where to. Go being said, I'm not sure the cereal gives the best advice so. No, the cereal is literally like, only you know. Only you know what to do. Yeah. Like fucking thanks. Surreal. Fuck off. Surreal. Yeah, I would ask them that and I would ask them, yeah.

17:22 When is a guitar? When is a guitar 6 coming? It has been so fucking long. And also like. Nothing. We have a content calendar to plan we need to. Know am I planning 2027? Am I planning 2028? What's happening? Are we getting 4th wing 4 before we get a guitar 6? That's what we need to know. These are the things we need to know. Heaven forbid we get them at the same fucking time. Then what do we do?

17:46 I don't. Know that would be so dumb for the publishers to do that in my opinion. They're different publishers. I know, but then you're competing like it's. Oh, don't even. Yeah, I like. I'm not saying it would be smart, I'm just saying that it's possible. Yeah, it would be bad. All right. What's yours? I just said six of mine.

18:06 OK, fine. All right, we can go on. No, I I'll, I'll rattle them all off, but the question was 1 so I guess I have to choose one. I already said when is that guitar 6 being released? Who was ersten? I'm hearing before you covered where should I buy a house so that I don't lose value? Which isn't a rational fear of mine, but statistically I think it almost never happens because.

18:27 Losing value on a house. Correct. Yeah, Yeah, Almost, never. Almost never. So why do I, why do I worry about that? I don't know. You worry about everything. I do worry about everything. Yeah. The crossroads question, which is the like, what choice do I make right now to most improve my life long term?

18:44 Are Lucian and Elaine actually mates for real? I need to know the answer to that just so that we can put it to bed. I don't care what the answer is, I don't care. I just want everyone to be happy. I want everyone to be happy and I want the best story we can possibly get, and I think some of the theories we've thrown out here would lead to incredibly interesting storytelling. If they are mates and it's that simple, fine, that's fine. You know, just like story.

19:11 That I need it in there. I need a good. Story so far away. That justifies the things that have been done so far to lead people to believe that they might not be right for each other. That's all. Yes. Yeah. Those are all. So these are really questions. What would you ask Sarah J Mass, who is the surreal in this game? The serial has the answers.

19:33 Sarah J Mass isn't going to tell me. Shall we deep dive? Yes, we shall. OK. Abby, what is the surreal? What are its powers all right? The surreal is a sassy, gossipy bitch demon. I don't know. And I love her. We love her. Whoever love that there's no gender. There is no. I did go back and check.

19:59 Never is the surreal. It's never gender. So we have a genderless demon. I'm calling it a demon. It's really more Dementor vibes. We'll get into it. All right, let's start at the beginning. I'm all over the place today. So we are first told, our first mention of the cereal is that it's old and wicked.

20:16 We know that it's old, but wicked doesn't really vibe with the cereal that we've been given. So the quote for that this is all the way back in ACOTAR Chapter 9. Pharaoh is talking here. So there are fairies who will actually answer any question if you trap them, maybe they'd know how to free me from the treaty's terms. Yes, he he is Lucian here.

20:36 He said tightly the cereal, but they're old and wicked, wicked and not worth the danger of going out to find them. I why is it? Why is the cereal being called wicked here? Like we don't really know. Also, where is the cereal getting its information from? We talked in our Elaine episode about how the cereal is not actually that good at predicting the future, but it is good at knowing what's going on right now.

20:56 Where does it get its information from? I do not know. So that is a question the. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry. Keep going. It's fine. The lore of the cereal. This is just going to be a little bit of a nympho dope guy. So you can ensnare it using either a chicken or a cloak. Maybe other things too, I don't know. By the end, Pharaoh doesn't even have to ensnare it, she just shows up where it is and it has a conversation with her. It has a weakness for Groves of young Birch trees and it hates crossing running water.

21:23 Don't know why has a thing for doesn't like water. It's aquaphobic. All right, Physical description. This is where I say it gives Dementor vibes. Right? So this is both from Acatar chapter 14. I hadn't known what to expect as I entered the ring of white trees, tall and straight as pillars. But it was not the tall, thin veiled figure in dark tattered robes.

21:43 It's hunchback facing me. I could count the hard knobs of its spine poking through the thin fabric. Spindly, scabby Gray arms clawed at the snare with yellowed crack fingernails. A face that looked at it had been crafted from dried weather worn bone, its skin either forgotten or discarded. A lipless mouth and two long teeth. That's TOO not TWO.

22:04 To be clear, its teeth are too long held by blackened gums, slitted holes for nostrils and eyes. Eyes that were nothing more than swirling pits of Milky white. The white of death, the white of sickness, the white of clean picked corpses. Peeking above the ragged neck of its dark robes was a body of veins and bones, bones and dry as dried, as dried and solid and horrific as the texture of its face. It let go of the snare and it's 2 long fingers clicked against each other as it studied me.

22:33 So like very horrific. Like really just not, not a looker here. You look in Harbor, dude. The cereal. The only note I had here besides the horrific visage we get is the Milky white eyes I hadn't really picked up on before. But that is typically typically means that it's blind, right? So like, yeah, is the cereal blind? Doesn't matter.

22:53 Butter, I don't really know, but I thought it was an interesting detail to throw in here because the cereal specifically says it sees Elaine peering at it with those doe eyes, right? But like, that's clearly not he doesn't physically certain, sorry, it doesn't physically see Elaine peering at it. So like, I think that kind of is maybe a clue into how it's seeing everything, like it's connected to some higher dimension or something. I'm not really sure.

23:17 All right, the powers we do get for the cereal, it seems to be able to actually smell lies eyes on people. So this is again in ACOTAR chapter 14. It says to Farrah, I don't remember what she's lying about. Sorry guys, says lies. I can smell the lies on your breath. It sniffed again, its fingers clocking together. It cocked its head to the side and erratic sharp movement, the dark veil snapping with it.

23:40 So Farrah has lied about something and the cereal says literally, I smell the lies on your breath, right? Take note more. That's how that's how you have a truth power. You fucking smell people's lies on their breath. It's not a mind reader though, like it does not know what Pharaoh does and doesn't know.

23:57 So the quote we have for that is what do you know about Tamlin? More specific human be more specific. I know a good many things about the high Lord of the Supreme Court. The earth tilted beneath me. Tamlin is Tamlin is a high Lord. Click, click, click. You did not know. Interesting. So it didn't know that Pharaoh didn't know that Tamlin was high Lord. So it's not it's not the day Mahdi powers like Reese has. It's it's something else.

24:20 It can also read emotions. So this is similar to that mind that lie smelling ability, but not de Madi, right? So when it tells Pharaoh that Reese is her mate, we get the cereal cocked its head. You are you are feeling too much too fast. I cannot read it. So it can like feel her emotions, read her emotions but not her mind. We also get a lot of wind imagery with the cereal, which I think is really interesting given what we know about Merrill being descended from the western wind and Cochet whispering on the winds.

24:50 We get the snare shattered. This is a guitar chapter 1514. The snare shattered like a shadow on the wind. The cereal was off a blast of dark that set the four not a staggering back. So that's like a shadow on the wind. Later we get Elaine says it moves, she whispered it moves through the world like like the breath of the western wind. As a reminder, Merrill all is specifically descended from Rabbath, the Lord of the Western wind, who we have yet to meet. And then it's death scene.

25:18 What Pharah says is as warm light whisked us away. I could have sworn that the pile of ashes was stirred by a phantom wind. That's Aquar chapter 60, which kind of feels like a Phoenix situation to me. Like is the cereal actually dead? Like if if it's ashes are being stirred by a wind, does that mean some kind of reincarnation? We haven't seen that yet.

25:39 Yeah. But could it? I don't know. It cannot see things that are not of Prythea. And we've talked about this quote at length, but fair asks in Akor chapter chapter 58 with the bone Carver Make a difference and Brie axis. The cereal had no eyelids, but it's Milky eyes flared with surprise. I cannot see.

25:56 Not him. He is not born of this earth with his thread has not been woven in other things. We have a note of note. And then I have a section for extra nonsense. We could get there. We could not get there. So it calls the Fayette's brethren, which I thought was a little interesting. This is all the way back in ACOTAR.

26:13 This might have been what Pharaoh was lying about. Yeah, it is. So It let out a huffing, awful laugh. And which of my brethren betrayed my secrets to you? None of them. My mother told me stories of you. Lies. I can smell the lies on your breath. So it calls the Fayette's brethren. This could mean in the way that all fairies are brethren because like Lucian did say it was a fairy, like he did say the cereal is a fairy.

26:38 So it could mean that way. But that's I think that's interesting nonetheless that it calls the Fayette's brethren. Similar to how we talked about the bone Carver kind of identifying himself as part of the night Court. It bleeds black. So the quote for that is it took me a heartbeat to register what happened, to identify the wooden thing that burst through the cereal's throat as an ash arrow, to realize what it sprayed in my face, landing on my tongue and tasting like soil was black blood.

27:02 We also have striga bleeding black. So what is the connection potentially between those two characters? Why do they both be bleed black? Then we get some interesting things about like the timeline that the cereal gives us about its life and whether or not they add up. So what it says is, is that it is not as old as a cauldron, but it did exist before the courts.

27:24 So the quote for that is this is Aquar chapter 58. The cereal is talking about the king of Highburn. He uses magic to cloak it magic far older than I, the cauldron. Another awful smile yes, that mighty wicked thing, that bowl of death and life. So that's magic far older than the cereal. And that magic is the cauldron, right? So we have the cauldron here, we have the cereal here and then it says, and this is Akhtar chapter 14. I am a member of no court.

27:52 I am older than the High Lords, older than Prithean, older than the owns of this world, right? We are told that the Cauldron created Prithian and this world, but now the serial is saying that the Cauldron is older than it, but it is older than the world and I don't think that that quite works out.

28:09 I actually just connected it to the to the fairies piece directly. It sounds like you're saying that you're of this world because you can't see things that aren't. Yeah, but you're also older than the world, right? So I just don't really understand how those things exist in tandem. And the culture has like, an entirely separate issue.

28:30 So I do think there's just some inconsistency with that element. I would agree. I would agree. Potentially a bit of inconsistency, but it's OK. We love you, Sarah. I'm just going to go through a couple of things here. I'm going to once again call out. We talked about this in our lane episode, but fair calls us out. We do not know its name, but it is implied that it has one. So the quote for that is I don't even know your name. I whispered the surreal.

28:54 It was a title, a name for its kind. That small smile again. Does it matter? Curse Breaker? Yes, it's eyes damaged, but it did not tell me. It only said you should go now. Worse things, worse things are coming. Worse things are coming. The blood draws them. That's Aqua. Chapter 60. So like we're being set up for something here that has not been delivered yet, that there is kind of more to the surreal, more to this story then meets the eye.

29:19 It also calls Elaine a trembling fawn, which is exactly what the Book of Breathings we think calls Elaine as well. It's not confirmed, but it is at least using the same verbiage as the Book of Breathing. So the story all says, this is Akawa Chapter 58. Thrice now we have met. Thrice now you have haunted for me.

29:38 This time you sent the trembling fawn to find me. I did not expect to see those doe eyes peering at me from across the world. And then the Book of Breathing says hello sweet thing, hello lady of night, Princess of decay, hello fanged beast and trembling fawn. Love me, touch me, sing me. So again, not confirm that the trembling fawn necessarily is Elaine, but the cereal later calls trem Elaine a trembling fawn.

30:02 So it feels like it feels like it is. And as a reminder, Elaine is basically scrying for the cereal. That's why he sees her doe eyes peering at him, which I think is interesting. Like is the cereal connected to the book? Does the cereal just know everything? Like, why is the surreal using the same language as the book, or is that just a turn of phrase?

30:23 And then again, we have a little bit of Night Court imagery, like we got for the Bone Carver. So Feyre calls it a dreamer. The quote we have for that is another rattling breath. Leave this world a better place than how you found it. And as its chest rose and stopped altogether, as its breath escaped in one last sigh, I understood why the Surreal had come to help me again and again. Not just for kindness, but because it was a dreamer. Dreamer, typically shorthand for Night Court Citizen, basically, in these books.

30:53 So like, again, is this meant? Is this meant literally? We get a lot of setup background, lore, mystery for the cereal and I don't think it's really been delivered on yet and a theory the cereal is dead. So will we get that delivery? I don't know. That's a question, but that's kind of the big things that I had. What did you have?

31:11 Yeah. I only had a couple additional things and you kind of you kind of mentioned them. But one thing that I want to just kind of re emphasize that you pointed out when you were talking about the fact that the cereal didn't give us its name, is that the cereal has numbers, right? So the serial is not one-of-a-kind. And I think that's interesting because I don't think it closes the door on whether we have met the last serial. Yeah, I think it opens the door on like, how does a serial become a serial?

31:38 If serial had a name, was it always a serial, right? Or was it something else? Yeah, really mean. And why are there so few? And why do we all need one? Are we going to meet another one? I think is like an open question. Actually had this written down in my notes as a theory, and then I took it out because we do have that line.

31:56 And it's a line that Ameren says to Reese, I think I have it written down here or that Reese says to Ameren. Yeah. So the quote is Reese is telling Farah about Ameren and she says he says. I think that she is the only one of her kind and there's no record of others ever having existed. Even the serial have numbers, however small, and I actually had a theory written down. Are we sure about that?

32:19 Or is this just one cereal that like reincarnates basically like, yeah, I don't know, like favorite talks to the same cereal every time? So maybe, maybe the cereal does not actually have numbers, but Lucian thinks that they have numbers and Reese thinks that they have numbers. Yeah, so, so yeah, cereals not necessarily off the board.

32:37 Yeah, maybe cereals are not off the board. Maybe that's why they're believed to be wicked. It's like there is one out there that's wicked. I don't know why else's name would matter. Like why concealing its name would matter if it if its name didn't matter. I guess that's what I'm saying. Right. It feels like we're getting set up for the cereal to be someone that we know, right, to have have some connection to some character that we have met somewhere, right? I don't know who that is, but the. Only other things that I had were the the meaning of its name.

33:13 So surreal is a name with Hebrew origins, which is not surprising given Sarah being Sarah. So the name surreal means God is my rock. It's a Hebrew name right? So sur sur TZUR means rock and L means God. And in the Bible surreal is surreal like is a name and it's an Archangel who basically explains the meaning of various things. 2 characters in the Bible so it well.

33:39 That makes sense. Yeah, it's like its name is very much derived from an Archangel who does this exact thing. But I think it's interesting that it's an Archangel. Like it's, it's somebody from like a different plane of being than everybody that it's explaining things to. So it again is calling into question for me, is this really a fairy? Is this somebody that's like of the world of everybody that is speaking with?

34:05 I'd say we get very mixed messages, and it's very interesting, especially with all of the Angel imagery that we get with Amarin. And we know that Amarin is not of this world, Right? So like, is the surreal from her world? Is the surreal from this world? How can you be older than the bones of this world but also be from this world? Like, what?

34:23 What are you? Yeah. But then like if the lane is becoming a surreal, which that's a plug for our lane episode then. Go listen to our late episode. Then it is from this world I don't know. That's what I mean that there's something and this is maybe pre Cog, I don't have anything specifically to point to here, but there's something to me about the cereal that feels cyclical.

34:43 Like that feels like we have done this before, we will do this again. And maybe it's just the wind coming with the ashes and stirring them up. Like I know everything because I have, I have lived this before basically, which we haven't gotten any kind of like time loop or anything in the in Aqatar in the Sarah J Maas universe. So like this, I could be totally off here, but it's, I think it is, it feels like we're getting set up that we know who the cereal is and that they are potentially if they are of this world, they have come back around kind of or they are not of this world, if that makes sense. Like they're going to be like an ancestor or something that we. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

35:24 Cool. All right, This is how this episode's going to go, guys. We're just going to talk about creatures and basically spit out crazy theories. I think it's going to be a fun one, just so you know, That's it. I feel like nothing's going to be that solid, but it's going to be kind of deep. That's what that's my prediction.

35:39 Yeah, that's that's this episode. Cool. All right, I will ask myself, what is the midden guard worm? All right, in my head, this is like, this is only going to apply to a small subset of people who know what the fuck this is. But in my head, this is Shai Halud. Like that's what it is in my head.

35:54 Love a Dune reference. In Iraq, yes, and that is from Dune. If anybody here has read or watched Dune. No, it honestly more serious note the midden guard worm. We actually don't know that it's called the midden guard worm. When we first meet it, we learned and most of the things that we know about the mid and guard worm after, after it's dead.

36:13 So Fair's first trial in ACOTAR in Chapter 36 consists of a very muddy, very gross trench, labyrinth level labyrinth, and hunting down what we now know to be the Midden Guard worm. It is a blind worm with a lot of teeth that Pharaoh was effectively able to fool by coating her own scent with the scent of the horrible smelling mud.

36:37 So the description is giant worm, or what might have once been a worm had its front end not become an enormous mouth filled with ring after ring of razor sharp teeth. It barreled towards me. It's pinkish brown body surging and twisting with horrific ease. These trenches were it's layer. And then we learned it's blind too.

36:59 I'm not going to read the quote. The quote is it was blind, kind of gross, like kind of kind of sounds like exactly like like a worm you find in your backyard, but like gigantic and has like basically it's cross section cut off and it's just like rows, rows of fucking teeth. Do you know what a lamprey is?

37:14 No, What's up? You should Google lamprey listeners. You should also Google lamprey unless you're driving but like it. This is a real creature that truly is in our world. And it is like fucking horrifying. And apparently I think one year in Alaska, there was this like migration of seagulls. This is totally off topic.

37:32 There's this, like, migration of seagulls that like, we're like hunting lamprey and they like just started dropping them on people. Like, anyway, that's kind of how I picture the Metinger. Are you horrified? I mean, I'm horrified, but it also is like an interesting dimension, like the teeth are like set in the gum in a more interesting way for everybody. This is the lamprey.

37:56 That's a lamprey in a more. I mean it's definitely shy haloud esque. Yeah, yeah, it is Shy Haloud esque. Let's see if there's a good image of Shy Haloud for those who have not seen there. Definitely is, and if you haven't seen Dude, you should go see Dude. Yeah, definitely. See, dude, OK. Like this is Shy Haloud.

38:13 Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's shy, Haloud. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, gross. OK, on all accounts, like any version of this, there's first trial min guard worm. It's whole thing is it's blind. She fools it by tricking it into not being able to detect her via masking her scent, and then she traps it on a bunch of bones and she kills it. That's that's the end of the trial. She hunts it and she kills it.

38:42 So the midden guard worm is dead as a book one, but we learn a lot more about it after the fact. We only actually hear midden guard in Agatar. We don't even hear midden guard worm. The first thing to note about the midden guard worm is pretty much everyone knows of the midden guard worm, so it's a pretty renowned beast. The bone Carver knows the midden guard worm most notably, and is willing to accept the bone that causes death as payment. And everyone in the Spring Corps, Cassian, everyone knows like you've slain the mitten guard worm. Like that's really noteworthy and important. So everyone in Prithean is kind of aware that the midden guard worm is a beast, a renowned 1, and that pharaoh beating it is crazy.

39:25 So that's a lot. Second, it is said like when we need it, that the trenches under the mountain where the Mingard worms layer under the mountain is in the middle, right? A lot of bad shit lives in the middle, including Striga, including the Bagavorid, the kelpies we'll talk about later and all these other things that are kind of death God adjacent.

39:49 So here's what we know about the middle. Just because I think it's no, I think it's significant than the Mingard worm. It's layer is in the middle and Akimath chapter 20, which is the first time that we encounter the middle. It's right when Reece is bringing. Farrah to meet Darling Strega, and he says In the heart of Prythian there is a large empty territory that divides the North and South.

40:13 At the center of it is our sacred mountain. My heart stumbled and I focused on my steps through the ferns and Moss and roots. This forest, Rhys went on, is on the eastern edge of that neutral territory. Here there is no High Lord. Here the law is made by who is strongest, meanest, most cunning. The weed for the woods top their food train, so the midden guard worms, trenches. Where it lives is in this empty territory underneath this land where there is no high Lord, no laws. It's just dumped in this place where all of this evil crazy shit lives and where Shriga, this death God, is also locked. We also later learn in A Court of Silver Flames that that's where the bag of Orid is, the mask is, and we learned that Orid was also once a sacred

40:59 place. So in A Court of Silver Flames, Chapter 31, we learn about the Bog of Orin. Some interesting things. Warriors were laid to rest in its night black waters, but Orid changed to a place of darkness, filled with such evil that no one will venture there, and only the worst of the fairies are drawn to it.

41:18 They say the water there flows to under the mountain, and the creatures who live in the bog have long used its underground waterways to travel through the Middle, even into the mountains of the surrounding courts. Fair frowned. It can't be more specific, though. She asked Reese. Do we have a detailed map of the middle? Reese shook his head.

41:36 It's forbidden to map the middle beyond vague landmarks. He pointed to the sacred mountain in its center, where he'd been held for nearly 50 years. The mountain, the woods, the bog, all can be seen from land and air, But its secrets, those discovered on foot, those are forbidden. So we have the midden guard worm, its trenches or its layer under the mountain, which is in the middle. We also have the middle being full of all of these creepy death God adjacent characters.

42:03 And we have the bog of Orid which has these waterways that float under the mountain and all of these underground waterways that are used to travel through the middle and into the mountains of surrounding courts by creatures. So one is the mid and red worm like Striga, like other things in the middle. Also not this world.

42:24 I'm not sure. It seems like it was slain pretty easily if it was just like slain by bone, but so is Striga, so yeah, I don't know, like maybe it's adjacent. That being said, we now have reference to these waterways traveling through the middle and under all these mountains. So this is kind of like this is kind of crazy.

42:41 This is kind of precog. But we now have like the possibility that the men guard worm could also get out of the middle and get out under the mountain. And we have references to these areas specifically in the Night Court that have been like carved out of mountains. Yeah, in the library, carved out by some digging beast.

43:00 And we have a digging beast. So does the worm have more of a hand in carving out these pockets of space into these mountains then? We thought that might be kind of crazy, but these are my crazy theories on the Midden guard worm. No, I love it. I hadn't. I hadn't thought about the bog of Orid connecting to Under the Mountain, but I think that's really interesting. Yeah, I had those same quotes that it's like there are we don't get that much time with the midden guard worm, but there are sprinkles throughout, implying the importance of this creature.

43:32 So the the library, I'm just going to read a couple quotes because I actually think that she gives us a little clue that this is what's happening. So the first clue that we read on our library episode, it was as if the base of the mountain had been hollowed out by some massive digging beast, leaving a pit descending into the dark heart of the world.

43:50 Did you read that? Sorry if you did. So carved out by some digging beast, but yeah, we should go further. We have that digging. We have a massive digging beast. We have a digging the. Worm. And then we get this quote in Silver Flames chapter 14. So it was silence and soreness and the roaring in her head. Maybe it was the roar, this is Nesta. Maybe it was the roaring that brought her to the stairwell instead of her bedroom, to wash up the gloom back into challenging her like the open maw of some great beast. A worm poised to devour her whole. Right.

44:19 So we have again this idea of a worm being in the House of when, in the library, ETC. And we only have one word, one word with AY. At least I have a little bit of a mythology break, much like you had with the cereal gear, which I think is really interesting. Fayrah calls it in Akatar a worm. Worm.

44:39 But we later learn in Akamath that the spelling is actually WYRM. Right. So we talked about this, I think, back in our favours trials episode way back when. Worm is typically a legless dragon. One of the most famous examples of a worm. UYRMI am apologizing for this pronunciation ahead of time. Is Yorman Gernder.

45:01 Yeah. Yorman Gander. Sorry. Yorman Gander. Yeah, I wrote I got this pronunciation from YouTube, but it's the same YouTube that gave me Rearson. So do with that what you want. So Yorman Gander is also known as the Midgard serpent or the worm of Midgard. And obviously Midgard serpent, Midengard worm.

45:21 These are extremely, extremely close, right? Midgard in Norse mythology is the human realm. The the mythology of the serpent basically is that is encircles the earth, our earth, human earth, and is biting its own tail, which sounds very much which it is an Uroboros, right? We had Pharaoh looking into the Uroboros mirror.

45:41 And that when it releases its own tail and it when it unclenches, basically is one of the signs of the beginning of Ragnarok, which is also known as the Twilight of the Gods, which is rumored to be Sarah J Mass's next series because of a Pinterest board that she put up about 10 years ago. At this point, I don't even know.

46:02 Yeah. So also the apocalypse. The apocalypse, yes, which is concerning, but concerning I don't know how the obviously not a one to one correlation, right? Our mid and guard worm does not encircle the planet unless it secretly does. I don't know. You got me thinking about these waterways now in in Norse mythology, the mid guard the waterways, right?

46:24 The waterways in Norse mythology, Yorman Gonder is at the bottom of the ocean. Obviously we've killed this one. Are there others? It is. What is what is this worm like? What does this mean? We're getting a lot of clues that this worm is kind of important, especially when you look at it through a mythology lens and has like a been in various different places.

46:43 But I don't think we have answers yet. Keep an eye on the worms. That's all I got. We'll talk more about this. Yeah, Yeah, No, but I love the, I love the tie to. How do you say that? Jorman Gander, Jorman Gander. I feel like I've heard about before. How do you spell? It it's JORMUNGANDR, Jorman Gander.

47:05 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. Loki's kid. Yeah, Loki's kid. Yeah, one of three. And basically the mythology is that Yorman Gander. I mean, I guys, I'm not an expert here, but like Yorman Gander was living on the plane of existence of the gods. I don't remember what that planet is called. And then Odin banished him to Earth. So then he encircled the Earth, bit his own tail, and when he unbites his own tail, that means Ragnarok is coming. I learned about Yorman Gander when I was looking at Loki's other two children for a different series. For a different series, that is a. Plug Norse mythology everywhere.

47:40 Yes, all right. Okay, cool. Anything else on that one? All right, well, that wraps our ACOTAR only section for this week. Surreal and Midden Guard Worm. More than meets the eye that that was more than you've ever thought about the surreal and Midden Guard Worm. We are on social media, TikTok, Instagram, YouTube as Dragons in the Details pod.

48:00 We've got a website dragonsinthedetails.com. You can reach us via e-mail if that's your vibe as well. Dragons in the details pod@gmail.com and we've got a Discord server that's a hoot if you're into that. Dragons in the Details is the name of the server and all that is LinkedIn, the show notes as well.

48:20 If you are not sticking with us for the mass verse section, it would mean a lot to us if you would subscribe on whatever channel that you listen to. And we are about to start talking about spoilers for the entire Mass verse. So if you have not read all of Crescent City and all of Front of Glass, that is 11 books. And so we're very sorry for that, but they're also so good. So we really recommend that you read them. Spoilers for all of it in 3/2.

48:45 Real quick. And if you guys are like, wait, there's so many more creatures, why aren't they talking about more creatures? This is a mass first plug. We're about to talk about them, but we can't talk about them at a Qatar only, OK. To interrupt the countdown with that is wild. But yes, I agree. Restarting the countdown spoilers in 321.

49:02 All right, Abby, Mass. First Cosms. Yes. All right. So my first, I have an omissions, I have two omissions here. The first one, do you want to do the Apollyon is death wonder? Do you want me to do it? Yeah. I mean, yeah, we should definitely do that. I feel like it's we've posted on social media, we've. Posted on social media, but we haven't talked about it on the podcast.

49:21 So Ronnie opened my eyes last episode. I don't remember a couple episodes ago about the fact that death at Nix's birth is a shadow. Ronnie posited brilliantly that this was actually a Prince of hell. She didn't know which Prince of hell I think is totally fair. I was reading Crescent City and I texted Ronnie and I said holy shit holy shit holy shit.

49:42 When Hunt is in the dungeon and sees a Polygon. A scene I have read many times, but I still miss this. This quote. The quote we get is. The shadow smiled at him. So Hunt smiled back. And then the shadow spoke. You would do well in hell too. Drugged with agony. Hunt didn't even quiver at the familiar male voice, one he'd already heard in another dream, another life. Apollyon.

50:04 He granted. Not death. Capital D Death, which is how death is described in this scene. At all of that. Yeah. I think it's Apollyon that's in the room. It's probably Apollyon. Why is Apollyon at Nix's? Yeah, yeah, it's probably Apollyon, but like, you'd have to think that it's fucking Thanatos. I don't know.

50:29 No. Why do you think it's Thanatos? Because Thanatos is on Prithian. That's true. Keep forgetting about that fact. He's bare. I don't know. I don't know because he does say he does say not death. So maybe I'm misreading this here. Maybe it's not a clue, but it's definitely capital D, capital D death, capital D death here.

50:48 So. Regardless, Prince of Hell, Capital D Death. Nicks Yeah. OK. So that's going to be fun. That's going to be fun. That's going to be fun. I think. Totally. Great find. All right. I have stuff about the cereal. Do you have anything else you want to talk about? Stuff about the cereal? OK, cool. But I do have other.

51:08 Yeah, let's do that before we kind of because my cereal thing is like a full mass versus history of the story. Yeah, yeah. So go ahead. We might be talking about the same thing. So I have a, I guess like a correction ish from our last episode. I just wanted to call out because I feel like people are gonna maybe people are gonna comment on it and if they don't, I'll just cut this.

51:28 But in our trove episode, I talked about how I wasn't sure that we really used the Cauldron to make the trove because Celine kind of talked about them separately and made the trove sound like they were like dagglin weapons of destruction and kind of independent of the Cauldron. Vespers does say that they made the trove from the Cauldron, so Vespers would definitely be either lying about that or the Cauldron would not actually be of Prythian, which I still think the door is open for the second very much.

51:59 I definitely think having gone back and re listened to the Cauldron this week, it is possible the Cauldron is not of Prithian. But that's getting so deep into this lore and would be such a change. Like I don't know if she's gonna go there. Yeah. So I'm not like fully redacting that concept, but I do think it's a much harder sell because I was listening to the mother episode and I was like I didn't read. I read the quote.

52:23 I read the quote said Vesperus was like we made the we made the true from the cauldron. So noted. My bad Vesper said it and Vesperus doesn't have a great reason to lie to us. She has been in a sarcophagus for 15,000 years. I am taking everything Vesperus says as Bible, and by Bible I mean I sleep with it by my bedside every night and read it. Not really.

52:47 Yeah and then I have a social media shout out from Kayla Bazaar BEZAIREI don't know if I said that right so I'm sorry. Kayla hear me out. The three faced mother slash mother maiden Crone is fate AKA word slash erd. However the three faces are the actual mother. And then Mala slash Deanna the actor gods left and got stuck in Irelia, but the mother was left in Akatar.

53:14 This has meant the three parts of her have now been separated which has made everything unbalanced in actor ever since. When Aylan puts the gods back, slash opens the rift to hell realm somehow. Maybe they kill her spirit. Deanna returns back to the Cauldron, the void where all things return. This is why it is there for Nesta to grab out and why Lanthus says it's impossible because he knows Deanna and her power have been gone from their world for a long time. We still don't have the entire three faces united, and until they do, the mother is just the dark mother. We need all three to make her whole again. So I wanted to call out this comment because we got it from a couple different angles and I

53:49 think it's worth talking about because I've had this thought a few times and there's a reason that I keep coming back to it not quite working in my brain and maybe you can help me with it. I'm coming more to terms with this concept of the Venn diagram of the three faced goddess and the throne of glass gods being 2 overlapping circles rather than two separate circles. But what's confusing to me is that they are referenced. The Three Faced Goddess and the Throne of Glass gods are referenced in the same world as totally different things. Like the Three faced, this goddess is worshipped by the Iron Teeth witches.

54:21 Yeah. And Throne of Glass gods are also in that world. And when Alan is sending the gods through that gate, there is a God with many faces. And there is. It could be Temis, though. It could be. I don't know if that's how you say it. Yeah. So maybe like, I don't know whether the Three faced goddess can have three faces that are also Throne of Glass gods.

54:44 I don't know. I struggle with this concept a lot. I kind of had just accepted that they could not, cannot be that could not overlap. But Kayla is saying Kayla's basically making the argument that they do that three faces could consist of the faces of Mala and Deanna. So you're saying that the three faced goddess is in fact three of the throne of Glass?

55:04 Is the Mother whoever the Mother is, Deanna and Mala? Mother Mala and Deanna, That's Kayla's theory. I am saying I'm coming. I'm becoming more OK with Throne of Glass Gods being the faces of the three faced goddess, but I have like to date struggle with that concept because the three faced goddess to me is a separate entity from the throne of glass Gods. But I hear everyone who's saying that they overlap and I'm acknowledging that I am confused. I'm really confused.

55:35 Not with you. Not with you. I think the way. First of all, not our Throne of Glass season, right? Not the. Throne of Glass season. But we did talk about Mother and three faced Goddess, and we certainly did. We certainly. Did I don't think we're going to have answers until we do throw out a glass.

55:49 Unfortunately. I still think that the when you look at the language, the closest comp is silba. I do want to call someone caught someone commented on our social media, but they weren't very nice. So I don't remember who they were and I didn't write down their name, but I actually thought they had a kind of good point. So I'm going to say their point here. We interpreted the voice that Elaine hears as being silba because she hears it when she's healing Ko, and then she hears it again when she's killing everyone. Irene, this commenters sorry.

56:20 Irene, you mean? Yeah. What did I say? I think you said Elaine, but it doesn't matter. Yeah, Irene. Sorry Irene. Irene, this commenters point was it's not actually Silba that Irene is hearing. Irene is hearing the mother. Like the mother has picked Irene and has picked Nesta for like her army or whatever.

56:39 But the reason why Irene can still hear Silba after the Throne of Glass gods have left is not because Silva has like stayed, but it's because it's actually the mother, which kind of lines, It's kind of the flip side of what we were saying. We are saying Silva is the mother. This commenter was saying no, Irene is hearing the mother, not Silva. I think either of those work.

57:02 You could argue either way. You could argue either way, I agree, except that maybe Silva has left. But what it's and and this all gets to the same issue, the same fundamental core issue, which is that the scene where the gods leave is so chaotically written. We get no names, We get no. Like I think it says there's, it says a specific number, but then it does not give faces or descriptions for that number.

57:27 It's really hard to tell who was involved in that scene, which could mean that we're barking up the wrong tree here, right? Like these, This isn't actually as important as we think it is. Or it could be obfuscation intentionally. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, yeah. So Kayla, I think it's an interesting theory and I think it like I actually do think it would solve if I were putting Throne of Glass Gods onto the three faces, I would put Silba, Mala and Deanna, because then it fills the powers that we are seeing.

58:00 We'll have the water. We'll have the healing, the light, the fire, and then whatever the fuck Nesta has. Yeah, as well. Well, we moon and the stars. Silver flames. Yeah, the silver flames. We have the healing and we have the white. We have the silver flames that Nesta obviously shows. That's from Deanna. We get fire imagery in the cauldron, right of her big forged, and that would be Mala.

58:24 And we have the healing light that she uses to heal Farrah and Nick's. Kind of work on Perthian. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, because I think we also like the cauldron is intrinsically tied to to Perthian. So I think it could be interesting. But I think again, that scene in Throne of Glasses is a bit of a mess.

58:45 It's a bit of a hot damage. It's just a mess. So but cool theory. So thank you, Caleb all. Right. Should we talk about the cereal? So we've gotten comments that the cereal might be a Reaper from Crescent City. I went back, I did some digging into this. I don't think so at the end of the day, that the cereal is a Reaper for the very simple fact that there's two, there's 2 facts.

59:09 One, reapers, we're told can cross oceans and the cereal does not like to cross running water. So I think that might, that might not allow it to be a Reaper. Pretty simple. The other thing is the cereal has Milky white eyes and the reapers have acid green eyes. Very hell. But the quote we get for that is a rotted veilish Reaper, black coke and robes clinging to its Bony body. Rain sluicing down its sagging grayish face was dragging her unconscious brother across the drench St. It's acid green eyes glowed as if lit by Hellfire. I mean Sarah is literally banging this over our heads here.

59:46 So acid green eyes are not Milky white eyes. I don't think it's a Reaper. I understand that they're similarities. I don't think it's a Reaper. That being said, we do have a character that the that the cereal is pretty similar to. I wonder if you got there too. And that is the under king, right? So. What we have, we have Milky white eyes. So the quote we have for that is, allow me to introduce my shepherd, the Underking said from the mist ahead, standing beside a 10 foot tall black dog.

1:00:13 Each of its fangs was as long as one of her fingers, all hooked like a shark's blah blah blah. Its eyes were Milky white, sightless, identical to the Underking. So we have the Milky white eyes, the voices. When the Underking spoke, we have, however, in a voice simultaneously ancient and youthful, but cold and dry.

1:00:30 The sound came from behind them. This land is close to you, Bryce Quinlan. That's the under king for the cereal. We have human, it said, and his voice was one in many, old and young, beautiful and grotesque. My bowels turned watery, as they always do, for hey, I always. Do. So again, we have that kind of like otherworldly old and young one and many voice their wardrobe. So the the under king is described as a desiccated corpse, half rotted and crowned with gold and jewels. Observe them, hideous beyond belief, yet regal, like a long dead king of old left to rot in some Barrow who had emerged to make himself master of this land. I still think that's the funniest quote ever. Like she's telling us exactly

1:01:10 what he is. Yeah, for the cereal. It's so interesting, but like, this is this is the Tolkien crossover that Sarah has chosen to just lob into this series. Yeah, we're just going to put barrel whites in Throne of Glass and Grass and City. On the other hand, is the cereal not very very similar to Tom Bombadil?

1:01:33 All right, that will be a different episode for another time. Similar right. We have like we have robes. We have rotting corpses similar vibes. Their their teeth. So the under king also has he grinned, exposing 2 large brown teeth and the cereal it smiled each of those stained 2 large brown teeth visible like those are those are word for wear the same right And then the feelings that they elicit and the people they're talking to. For the under King we get He stood at least 10 feet tall robes of riches, black velvet draping to the gravel darkness swirled on the ground before him and his head. This is from Hunt's point of view, something primal in him scream to run to bow to the fall

1:02:16 on his knees and beg. That's House of sky and breath. Chapter 29 all the way back in ACOTAR Pharaoh with the cereal we get run. Some primal, intrinsically human part of me whispered, begged, run and run and never looked back. So we have something primal on him, scream to run, to bow, to fall to his knees and then run.

1:02:35 Some primal, intrinsically human part of me whispered run, run and never looked back. So they're getting, we're getting the same feelings as we are getting from the under king and the surreal. Obviously the under King. I do not think the under King is the surreal. The under King was originally a Barrow white, hence the Barrow white quote. In fact, it's in a Barrow.

1:02:55 It's the fact that it's in a barrel. So like, I don't know, is the cereal originally a barrel white from Aurelia? What does that mean? Does that matter? It bleeds black. I don't know what color the under King bleeds. I don't think we've ever seen the other under king blade. Obviously that's like Val Val Valk.

1:03:09 But then like appearance wise, description wise, it seems most similar to these whites. So. What do you think? Yeah, I I think the under king similarities are clear. I also think this is like a bit of a stretch, but there's a sailing, right? So it kind of makes sense to that it wouldn't want to cross water because because you're across the river, the River Atcheron, when you cross over into the underworld or whatever, what is the river actually called in Crescent City?

1:03:39 Isn't it the? Estros, estros. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that the surreal doesn't like crossing water kind of works as well. I definitely think it's the most like canonically similar character in description. I'm kind of left with a So what though. Like why does it matter? I'm not sure why it matters other than the argument that in death there is a trope that's not just a Sarah J Maastrope.

1:04:06 It's just like a literature trope that like in death, you can see all things, right? So with Elena and with Gavin and with all of these people who are dead, they just know things. Like, they can just see things. And this so they can tell the people who are alive what's happened, what will happen, what they should do, what they should not do.

1:04:25 But they can't tell the future. They can only offer advice and can see because they're in this other realm. And I think that's really like the only. So that is actually so interesting if the idea is that that under King or sorry, the Serial could potentially commune with the dead because that what does it mean that he saw Elaine's eyes peering at him from across the world.

1:04:46 So I want to talk about a pretty popular fan theory that could link to this. It could be nothing, but I think it's about fucking Caltane. It's about Caltane. I don't know that fans look at this passage when they think about this theory, but I think I found the passage that links to it the most. I still don't necessarily think that it's caltane, but it made me think of maybe the cereal is just in death, like in this after death.

1:05:16 OK, Yeah. And I think we need to acknowledge this theory. Like everyone's going to like you guys are going to comment, what about calcium rompier? So here we are. We're talking about caltane rompier. OK. And I also want to talk about how this could possibly tie to the fact that the cereal are said to have numbers as well in Kingdom of Ash Chapter 33 of One Gajillion because Kingdom of Ash is a million years long. Dorian attempts to summon Gavin to ask whether he is ready to face Morath, but instead Damaris just summons Kaltin Rompier who had died bringing down 1/3 of Morath by basically just incinerating it from the inside out. Big redemption arc for an otherwise kind of annoying character.

1:05:54 Good for her. Redemption arc in basically one book is kind of crazy. There is a pretty surreal like interaction between the two of them in this scene. So Caltane, Caltane shows up. Dorian is like, I did not ask for you here. She held up a slender hand, her gauzy dress and silken hair floating on a phantom wind.

1:06:14 I mean you no harm. So we have that phantom wind again that is linked to the surreal Dorian's like, I didn't ask for you to be here. And she says, didn't you? Weird, but knowing. He wonders whether the sort. This is a very long passage, so I'm paraphrasing. He wonders whether the sword blessed by truth Damaris orchestrated this meeting, implying that Caltane now holds some kind of truth power. He says, I thought you were destroyed at Morath. And Caltane says I was in so many ways I was. And they have like a little bit of a reconciling and he he basically expresses guilt and he's like, I'm sorry, I never did anything to save you.

1:06:49 And she says I wasn't blameless like I was after your crown. They have like a little bit of a making up moment. And she says I never had friends of my own, not as you have. I always envied you for it, you and Alan. She's not supposed to know that Alan's Alan. So he says Doreen then asks, you know who she is?

1:07:06 A hint of a smile. Death has its advantages. So because she's dead, she knows these things. And then she says I am not allowed to say who dwells here with me. So if we're linking this to the cereal just like play with me that the cereal is is like of this kind for a second, could the cereal know what it knows?

1:07:23 Because it is like a being who has stalled in some sort of afterlife and now knows things because of that. And there are people who dwell there with her, like with with the cereal. Because saying I can't say who dwells here with me implies that it's not everybody. Like it's not everybody who dies.

1:07:42 It's a specific set of people who have died for some reason. Food for thought. Dorian then asks her if he's ready to go to Morath, which feels a lot like Farrah asking the serial if she is ready to look into the Urberus and Caltane gives basically the same answer that the serial told Farrah. Caltane says it is not for me to tell you if you are ready and the serial said to Farrah only you can determine what breaks curse breaker.

1:08:08 And then Caltane tells Dorian like don't try to kill Arowan, you wouldn't walk away from it. She just like knows things now. She knows he can shift. He's like, I can barely shift. She's like, can't you? And then he turns into a bird. I like, I guess I'm bringing this up because I get it. Like, I don't know if everybody who's saying Caltane Rompier is the surreal is referring to this passage.

1:08:28 But if you are referring to this passage, no, we're. Talking about the cloak because a link gives her a cloak. Well, yeah, a link gives her a cloak as well. Yeah, I mean with this I understand. But I also think this plus the under King connection, whether it's Caltane or not, I think it's more interesting to consider the potential that the cereal and if the cereal has numbers and the cereals numbers know the things that they know because they are living in some sort of.

1:09:02 Afterlife. Half. Half. Yeah. Half here, Half not. Yeah, I think that's really interesting. My argument against Caltane has always been that even with a word stone, word key in her arm, she bleeds red when she dies and the cereal bleeds black. That's always been my reasoning for not. However, no one has read me this.

1:09:24 Passage. Yeah, When she's when she's alive, she's not a cereal, though. I think she's a cereal. Yeah, the black blood is really interesting because nothing that we've talked about here has led me to believe that the cereal is Valk, which is usually the black blood, right? Yeah. Yeah, nothing else about the cereal is Valk, right?

1:09:44 Like it's not sending visions. It's not sending visions. I mean the run thing, but it's not, it's not drinking fear. It's not inspiring depression. Yeah, right there is is 1 Valg thing about it actually, which is the cereal and Erawan actually have almost identical not death scenes but like post death scenes. So I talked about how for the cereal we get as if a phantom wind came and like stirred up his ashes. For arrow on we get they watched in silence as the Val King turned to ashes as a winter wind swept over the tower tower balcony and carried them far far away. Does that matter?

1:10:21 I don't know, but it is pretty similar. This idea of the wind carrying the ashes, where's the wind taking them? Yeah, that is a lot to think about. That's a really cool scene. That is a caltane theory I can fucking get on board with. Not this cloak. Nonsense. I hate that I'm giving this to you guys Caltane fans, but here it is. OK, here's the Caltane theory that could work. Yeah, I think that's really cool. Yeah, I like the Caltane.

1:10:46 I like this idea. I'm not. I'm not a hater, but I was a hater. I don't. I think what Sarah did with Caltine's character is great. What I don't like is everyone out here saying Calatine is the cereal because Ailey gave her a cloak. I don't know that that never quite sat right with me. But this is really interesting.

1:11:02 And it's interesting too that she says, I can't say who's here with me, almost implying someone is secretly dead, like, because there's no one. What would be the information she's trying to conceal there? You know well. Right. And like, think about the people that Damaris is summoning, right? It's Gavin, Gavin, Elena, Elena, Caltane.

1:11:23 Like who else isn't being isn't being summoned. That could be summoned at some point I guess is what she's concealing. At some point we will do a death in the bass first deep dive hopefully. What after more books come out? Because we don't have enough information, right? Now, but but we know right that Elena is basically like trapped in this in between.

1:11:42 So it seems like this is and in between and you can which you can leave the in between. Also does kind of lead back to the reapers, right? The reapers are kind of stuck in an in between too, so maybe be the cereal is a Prithean version of the Reaper? I don't know, I don't know. All very interesting. The cereal, too, has the connection to the middle. Right.

1:12:00 Like Feyre finds the cereal in the middle. Why? All right, an hour and a half in, and we're going to start the last four questions of the episode. OK. Is it 40? God, it is 4. Oh, my God. OK. All right, we'll go quick. You know, I feel like we can be maybe more expedited in the second-half here.

1:12:18 We've meandered. All right. Tabby what are? The boggy. All right, so we first meet the boggy in ACOTAR, and it is more of a feeling than an actual creature, right? So the quote for that is we get. Lucian whipped his head to the right, listening, his eye wearing softly. The hair on my neck stood, and I had my bow drawn in a heartbeat, pointing it in the direction that Lucian stared.

1:12:42 Lucian doesn't even try to fight this thing. We're later told that Tamlin goes after it, but Lucian doesn't even like attempt to fight this. And Lucian fought the not a so like Lucian's pretty, you know, High Lord air. Pretty powerful, doesn't even try to fight it. The description we get for that is. My blood froze as a creeping, leeching cold lurched by. I couldn't see anything, just a vague shimmering in the corner of my vision, but my horse stiffened beneath me. I willed my face into blackness.

1:13:08 Even the balmy spring woods seem to recoil, to wither and freeze. The cold thing whispered past, circling. I could see nothing, but I could feel it. And in the back of my mind, an ancient, hollow voice whispered, I will grind your bones between my clothes 'cause I will drink your marrow. I will feast on your flesh.

1:13:25 I am what you fear, I am what you dread. Look at me, look at me, I will fill my belly with you, I will devour you, Look at me. And just as I thought I would give in when my eyes hurt so much from not looking, the cold disappeared into the brush, leaving a trail of still recoiling plants behind it. And then we get.

1:13:42 What was that? I asked, brushing the tears from my face. Lucian's face was still pale. You don't want to know, please. Was it that cereal you mentioned? Lucian's rusted eye was dark as he answered hoarsely. No, it was a creature that should not be in these lands. We call it the Boggy. You cannot hunt it, and you cannot kill it even with your beloved Ash arrows. But as we know, Tamlin can kill it. I don't know how Tamlin kills it. That happens off screen.

1:14:06 It becomes real when you look at it. So why can't I look at it? Because when you look at it, when you acknowledge it, that's when it becomes real. That's what it can kill you. And then one last thing we know is that it's bite is designed designed to slow down faith healing. And I'm saying that word for a reason. So the Boggies bite was crafted to slow the healing of high faith long enough to kill us.

1:14:27 You have my gratitude. So that's what we found out in ACOTAR. Later in Silver Flames, we find out that this creature was actually created, crafted, birthed by Lanthus. So the quote for that is before he went into the prison and confinement weakened him, Lanthus could turn into wind and RIP the air from your lungs, or turn into rain and drown you on dry land.

1:14:47 He could peel your skin from your body with a few movements. He never revealed his true form, but when I faced him, he chose to appear a swirling mist. He fathered a race of fairies that still plague us who thrived under Amaranthus Rain, the boggy. But the boggy or lesser mere shadows compared to Lanthus, he feasts on fear is pain as much of the flesh itself. So I think what's interesting about the boggy being tied to Lanthus is obviously the boggy feels very vague in the feelings that it inspires and in the cold that Farrah feels right, like she feels.

1:15:22 It's not. It's not quite Valk princey. It's like it's not like feelings of depression, but it is absolutely causing a feeling in her and speaking into her mind, right, which are both very vogue hell things. We have the feasting on fear. We have the vogue Prince telling Selena your agony tasted like wine like it's it's similar vogue ideas. And obviously we know that Blanfis bleeds black, right? But what I thought was interesting about the boggy is that it is unlike any other Valk potential Valk creature that we have seen, right?

1:15:56 We have not seen anything with this like psychological horror like Valk creatures, usually scaly talons, claws, wings. Like I realized the boggy is kind of invisible and it talks about having claws, but like it's so much more of a psychological horror game than what we're used to seeing with the Valk. And it's almost like Lanthus just created like mini versions of himself, right, because they speak into Pharaoh's mind. They the boggy, right?

1:16:24 We know that Lanthus can project images speak directly into Nesta's mind. Lanthus can turn into the wind. The boggy has nor no corporeal form until it's looked at right. So it's kind of like the wind. He feasts on fear. Lanthus is said to feast on fear. The boggy we get I am what you fear. I am what you dread. Look at me, look at me.

1:16:43 So I just think it's, I just think it's interesting with Lanthus and with the boggy we have, we have kind of talked about Lanthus being Valk and being hell. But if you took away the fact that Lanthus bleeds black, I don't I think we're ignoring the wind here. The idea of the wind basically like being an actual thing.

1:17:04 Like I am the Lord of the western wind and we have Lanthus appearing as when and we have the boggy being non corporeal, right? And we just kind of have been like, well, Lanthus is Valk because he bleeds black. But I think I guess what I'm trying to say is the boggy feels so different from other Val creatures.

1:17:21 I'm wondering if there's another player in this game that we have not really accounted for yet with these different wind type gods that we seem to be getting. I don't know though. Yeah, In thinking about the boggy and what it does, I agree that the boggy feels like mini Lanthus. Like it sends you, it basically sends you a vision to coerce you, right. It will like try and get you to look at it. Like it will do anything to try and get you to look at it. And then it will try and get you to be afraid so that it can drink your fear.

1:17:55 And so that is Lanthus. Like Lanthus will coerce you. He sends visions to Nesta to try and coerce her into doing what he wants. And he we actually don't really feel him drink or fear he I guess what I'm getting at is he feels if anyone like Maeve and like no other valve. Interesting, why do you think he feels like Maeve?

1:18:16 Because Maeve when she has Alan is sending Alan visions to try and get Aylan to do something and does not feed on Aylan's fear. Like Mae doesn't really seem to need to feed on fear. So I guess now we're talking about Lanthus. But like if you're asking me, does Lanthus seem valg if you take away the black blood?

1:18:38 He doesn't seem valg but he seems like Maeve. Yeah, so maybe Lanthus is a Val Queen, Hale Queen. Val Queen. I don't. Know. Yeah, and then the boggy feels valg like feels more like a Valk Prince. Without a body. Without a body. Yeah, Yeah. It's like the prince's thoughts. Yeah, right, right. Just I want to feed on your fear. Kind of like Brie axis.

1:19:00 Yeah, OK, that's all I had for the boggy, those thoughts. The only additional thing that I have in the boggy is not at all related to surgery mass, but the word is super close to the word boggert which does the same thing in Harry Potter. Yeah, that's true. That didn't even occur to me. You look at it and it becomes your worst fear.

1:19:19 Yeah. There's also a bogger. Like the word bogger, it's just a word in English folklore. But the bogger in English folklore doesn't do that, so this seems inspired by Harry Potter. I don't think we know that the boggy becomes your worst fear, but yeah, it becomes like, real. Yeah, it becomes real.

1:19:34 It can kill you, and I assume it becomes something you fear because it wants to drink your fear. So yeah, that's fair, though we do not have confirmation that it becomes a fear, just some cool. All right, anything else on that one? That one was fast. All right, the most fun question of the episode, I think.

1:19:52 Ronnie, how did the Midengard worm absorb Nestas power? All right, so scratch all of our this is crazy bullshit from the Aquitar only section. Midgard worm is in fact digging tunnels through breath. And really? Harping on that, I was like. Well, we keep getting, so we've gotten a couple of comments from people that is like it's so funny how you guys do backflips in the Agatar only section to not like expose other series of Sarah J Mass's works.

1:20:21 So. We're doing our best. It's. Tough, yeah, I don't know, like if you haven't read these series, I guess it is kind of crazy to think about the midden guard worm digging the library under under the House of Wind. But no, that definitely did happen. So obviously we have to a lot more to dig into on the mid and guard where I'm seeing as we do meet another one right in House of Flame and Shadow and that we have another world called Midgard.

1:20:42 So let's dig into that. In House of Flame and Shadow Chapter 7, Bryce and Nesta and Azrael hidden in the shadow, encounter a men guard worm. That men guard worm looks the same. A mouth full of rows of teeth open wide and snapped. Bryce fell back on her ass as the worm caught three of the flying lizards between those teeth, swallowed them all in one bite.

1:21:05 Her Starlight flared, casting the whole cavern in light and shadow. The creatures on the walls screeched either at the worm or the light flapping off their perches and right into the creatures opening jaws. So she basically, they see this worm because it's eating. It's hunting. Yeah, yeah. And she pretty immediately recognizes that it is blind because her Starlight has no impact on it.

1:21:28 So she says her Starlight could do nothing against it. It had no eyes. It likely operated on smell. And there she was, a trembling treat offered up on that bridge. I found this part pretty funny because really, like, I'm not calling fair a Dom here, but like, Bryce clocks that this thing can't see immediately. Yeah, I'm like, OK.

1:21:49 I mean, if it's shy hallood, like if that is what it is, it doesn't even have eyes, but like. She says it. It had no eyes. Yeah, that's the quote. It had no eyes. It likely operated on smell. I'm like, favorite girl. How did you think this one, this thing was like, panicking? You quite panicked. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:22:06 I don't know. She had a hard childhood. Bryce had a loving set of parents. When Nesta tells Bryce what's called a midden guard worm, Bryce rightly is like, Is that from my planet? Which is a good question. And that is, that quote is from the same chapter. Nesta glanced to the shadows behind Bryce as if someone stood there, but she said a midden guard worm. Midden guard?

1:22:27 Bryce started at the word. Like Midgard. Did they come from my world originally? Horrific as the creature was, to have another being from her world here was oddly comforting, And maybe finding a scrap of comfort in that fact proved how fucking desperate she was. I don't know. Nesta said. Are they common around here? If they were, no wonder the Faye had bailed on this world, No, Nesta said, a muscle ticking ticking in her jaw. As far as I know, they're rare.

1:22:50 Then Bryce, being Bryce, basically drips blood to lure the worm along to Nesta and Azrael and uses the diversion to run away. And that is brought back by a guilty conscience, and Nesta and Azrael force her to be the bait for the worm. So it's basically like meeting of the minds except for Battle of the Minds because Bryce thought she was tricking them, then feels bad, then Nesta and Azrael are tricking her and that's when Nesta engages the worm. So when Nesta sends her silver flames to the worm, that's the root of this question.

1:23:22 It absorbs her power. So that is in House of Flame and Shadow Chapter 14. Behind them, closer to Bryce, the worm erupted from the water again from another sinkhole. Silver, silver fire blasted past her. The worm screeched as the raw power slammed into its side, setting the cavern, shaking debris and rock splashing into the river. Then the fire vanished, sucked into its skin. The worm again plunged beneath the water into the sinkhole. Azrael and Nesta return to their back-to-back to position, and Bryce gathered her wits enough to say what happened. It ate my power.

1:23:57 Nesta murmured. That's not possible. Azrael said, eyes fixed on the river. It did. Nesta snap. I felt it and then Azrael says shit, which is a fair reaction. So we talked about already how the Mingard worm, it's layer or one of its layers was in the middle underneath the bog board. We of course here all together in the mass first section know that the middle was in a stereo playground.

1:24:20 I think the Mingard worm was likely made by the Asteri or in a Steri creature and is probably one of the creatures that Vesperus not probably. I firmly believe that it's one of the creatures that Vespers references who is constantly seeking cores of power to eat and survive, and that is I think you've read this on this podcast probably twice at this point.

1:24:40 Awesome flame and shadow chapter. I've got it here, don't worry. We hid pockets of our power throughout the lands in case the vermin should cause problems. It seems our wisdom did not fail us. Have you looked beneath every sacred mountain at their very roots? The magic draws all sorts of creatures. I can sense them even now.

1:24:59 Slytherin. About gnawing on the magic. My magic. There is much vermin as the rest of you. Bryce carefully didn't glance at Nesta, who was creeping around the crystal coffin. Nesta had claimed earlier that the Middengard worm had eaten her power. Was that the sort of creature Vesperus meant? Probably.

1:25:19 Probably. I think so. Probably. I think so. So I think the men guard worm was able to absorb Nesta's power because the men guard worm feeds on power because it was made by the Esteri. And that's why crawls around the middle. That's why it's in the middle in the first place. So I totally agree with everything you've said. There's a couple other interesting things happening to it too.

1:25:40 So it eats Nesta's power, but it also absorbs Azrael's power. And the quote we have for that is rays of blue light flared from Azrael Spearing for the creature. They pierced its dark wet skin and vanished. And then he later says it breaks through my tethers like they're spider webs. So it absorbed Azrael's power.

1:25:59 Vesperous, when Azrael attacks her, is able to basically absorb and then harness Azrael's power as well. And she said something like, don't you understand your power is and always will be mine. So we're getting more Asteri bidding guard worm clues. I think the biggest that these are potentially made, I don't know about made made, but at least linked to the Asteri. And the reason why I'm not sure that they were made by the Asteri.

1:26:24 I'll get more into mythology. Bryce's Starlight flares when the midden guard worms, when the midden guard worm appear. So we have, I think you read this quote, but an enormous worm gleaming with water and mud, a mouthful of rows of teeth open wide and snapped. Bryce fell back on her ass as the warm caught three of the flying lizards between those teeth, swallowed them all in one bite.

1:26:45 Her Starlight flared, casting the whole cavern in light and shadow. Her Starlight flares in the presence of made things like we haven't really dug into this yet, but like it shows her the way to Celine score and the first light core. It flares around the hounds which we will get to that are under the hewn city.

1:27:05 Like basically the Starlight flaring, I am around something made, I am around something a sterry, right? So we're getting signs that this is a made creature. We have another example of Crescent City of someone's power being absorbed and it is exactly what you said. It is a like calls to like situation and that is Hunt.

1:27:25 Well, I guess that's not exactly what you said, but basically like I am positing that yes, it is absorbing Nesta's power specifically because Nesta's power is also a steri power. Hunt's power disappears with the Crystallis and the Crystallis is a demon from hell. And we'd later find out that the source of Hunt's power is hell power.

1:27:42 So the quote we have for that, this is in the park when the Crystalis attacks Bryson Hunt. Blood sprayed and knife glinted as Hunt pulled it out from its sheath and plunged it into the grayish, near translucent translucent hide. Veins of lightning wreaths Hunt's hands and faded into blackness. Hunt rolled, flipping the creature off him and onto the pathway, wrenching his knife free in the process. Clear blood dripped down the blade as Hunt angled it in front of himself, his shredded arm out flung to protect Bryce. Lightning flung and sputtered at his fingertips. So basically the Crystallis is able to absorb and block Hunt's power the same way that the midden guard worm is able to block absorb Nestus power,

1:28:21 right? So it's again a like cost to like situation idea of it, the worm being made. So there's a couple of things I want to talk about here. The idea of the worm being made I'm not 100% sure on. I think the worm might actually be from the Asteria home planet. And the reason I think that gets back to the mythology angle that I was talking about, because in that Norse mythology originally the worm is from the planet of the gods and I can't remember the name, but it's not from Midgard.

1:28:51 The gods banish it to Midgard basically. So I think maybe the worm is originally from that a stereo home planet, which is why it feeds on first light chorus, which is why it's reacting to the Cisteri magic, because the idea of the stereo making the worm, I mean, the worm is like this crazy predator. Why is there no worm on Midgard?

1:29:09 You know, like, why is it only on on Midden or not on Midden guard on Prythian? Unless Prythian is actually called Midden Guard, which would be crazy. So maybe it's from the hysteria home planet. But I want to get back to this idea of the worm coming from Midgard to Prythian and that being the origin of its name.

1:29:25 Because if that's true, then Celine's story is, if not a lie, at least not complete, right? Because we are basically told the only creatures, the only beings that have come from from Midgard to Prithian are Saline and Bryce, right? How How would the Midgard worm have gotten to Prithian? We know it likes to hang out near first light cores and those are thin places, but as far as I know, you can't just like hop from one world to another in in like a thin place without an object of the trove. And even if that was the case, someone would have to have come with it and said, oh, that's a mid guard worm. You know, someone would have to know like that's a worm for mid guard and call it that.

1:30:06 You see what I'm saying? If the mid and guard worm is from mid guard, we have not gotten the full story is all I'm saying. OK cool, that's all I have to say. I agree I think. I think that they are. There are strong asteri ties between this worm. I think there are strong asteri ties for this worm is basically what I'm saying.

1:30:22 Whether that's because it was made or because it's from the Asterius home planet, I don't know, but the idea of an intergalactic giant worm planet hopping is pretty terrifying. An intergalactic worm that digs planet that digs is pretty fucking wild. Yeah, pretty terrifying. Well, well, I'm scared I'm going to get into your precog.

1:30:42 But like the The Cave of Princess in a volley is identical to the tunnels under the wherever they are under the prison. And we're told those are dugout by the worm, right. So there has to be a worm on Vidgar, right? Like in theory, there has to be. I don't know. Next question. Yes, Abby, what is the kelpie? All right, so some of you remember that Nesta faces off against the kelpie and the bog of Orid. We have a couple interesting things about this. So physical description.

1:31:11 Just read this quickly. It was wider than bone and humanoid male. Bit by bit, inch by inch, the head rose above the black water, Obsidian hair drifting in the water around the creature, so silken and might as well have been the surface. His black eyes were enormous, no whites to be seen, his cheekbones so sharp they could have sliced the air. His nose was narrow and long, like a blade, and water dripped from its tip over a mouth, a mouth. It was too large, that mouth, sensuous lips, but too wide. He heaved himself out of the water, revealing a Bony or so, his black hair dragging behind him like a net. She lurched back again as he slowly lifted his head. The two wide mouth parted.

1:31:50 Twin rows of rotted teeth, jagged as shards of glass filled his mouth. As he smiled. He pushed himself onto his arms and he slid a long white leg from the blackness. Another, and then he knelt on all fours, smiling Her. So I think this is important. The kelpie has legs. It is not a like Mer like creature like the kelpie is a humanoid.

1:32:09 It has legs. Couple interesting things we get about the kelpie. He seems to hear the mother, or who we think is the mother when the mother is talking to Nesta in the bog. So the quote we get for that is the gentle female voice in her head pleaded run, run, run. His head cocked, sawed in black hair sloshing with the movement full of what seems to be bog weeds.

1:32:31 As if he'd heard the female voice too. He spoke again and it was like rock grating on rock, his tone and more demanding. So like, why would this kelpie be able to hear the mother if he can hear the mother? Like that's kind of crazy, right? He speaks the language of the ancient fae, which is a dialect that we know hasn't been spoken in 15,000 years.

1:32:52 And the reason we know this is because Nesta, let's reseed the memory of her being dragged down by the kelpie. He plays it for Amarin quotas. Reese turned to Amarin. Have a listen. Their eyes became glazed and none of them spoke as Reese showed Amarin. Even Amarin's face pale that whatever Reese showed her.

1:33:07 And then she was shaking her head, her black Bob of hair swaying. That is a dialect of our tongue that has not been spoken in 15,000 years. I could only pick up every other word. Reset. Favorite arch to brow. You speak the language of the ancient Fey? We shrugged. My education was thorough. He waved an idle, graceful hand. For exactly these situations.

1:33:26 Exactly these situations. Yeah, OK. And then what the kelpie actually said was, are you my sacrifice, sweet flesh, how pale and young you are? Tell me, are they resuming the sacrifices to the waters once more? And when she didn't respond, the kelpie said, no gods can save you. I shall take you, little beauty, and you shall be my bride before you are my supper. And Amaranth later tells us with basically the most ancient fan, humans believed kelpies to be river and lake gods. And so they they sacrificed basically a people to them. So last thing we got about the Kelpies, this was just kind of info dump.

1:34:02 They do not reproduce, but they were made. So the quote we get for that is the kelpies do not breed. They rape and torment, but they do not reproduce. They were made a legend, say by the hand legend set, sorry, legend says by the hand of a cruel God and deposited throughout the waters of the land.

1:34:18 The kelpie you slew girl was perhaps one of the last. Just so wild, like they just, there's no procreation of these beings. There's no procreation. I mean, they were made by my cruel God, obviously. Also, I think this is made by the Asteri, like all of these creatures were made by the Asteri. And I think it's really interesting though, about all of them. Now that you pointed out, and I didn't even really think about this.

1:34:40 They're all congregating in the middle, right? Because we are told that the kelpies were deposited all across the land. And then Amarin has a line that tells us that this one retreated to Orid. All of the Asteri things are congregating in the middle. I know it used to be a game park for the Asteri basically but like why are they still there? What?

1:35:00 What's in the middle? Vespers says there is a place for. Yeah, the young teachers like me. Yeah, the middle. So I've seen it in my dreams. So I actually think she was being deceitful there. Like I think that she knows that that's a place where all of her friends are and like she's going to go talk shit up there. But yeah, but like, something about the magic there, the lawlessness there is clearly attracting all of these creatures.

1:35:28 And it only really becomes. At least the bog only really becomes that after Fionn dies, which I'm about to get to. Yeah. Which I think is interesting. So I'm pretty sure that this kelpie that drags Nesta down to the bottom of the bog is the same kelpie, same creature that we see kill Fionn. Well, I'm putting kill in quotes because we don't actually see it Kill Fionn.

1:35:51 So the quote we get for that is in House Flame of Shadow Chapter 19. The image shifted to some sort of marsh, a bog. A fian rode a horse between the islands of grass, bow at the ready as he ducked beneath trees and bloom. My parents often went hunting in the vast slice of land the Daglin had kept for their private game park, where they had crafted terrible monsters to serve as worthy prey. It was there that he met his death. Dark hair, a dark haired pale creature that could have been the relative of the Knock and Jessica's alley dragged a bound and gagged fee on into the inky depths of the bog. The once proud king screaming as he went under. So I think a couple interesting things here. She says it's a relative of the

1:36:31 knock. It's not a knock. The knock is more myrrh like the mark. The knock has fins. So it's it's not this creature also came from somewhere else. It's the Esteri made another version of a kelpie basically. And actually, if you look at the house definitions in Crescent City, kelpies is listed in House of many water. So maybe there's kelpies on Midgar too. We just haven't.

1:36:50 At any we did just has a pet 1. Doesn't bring Jezebel, brings a pet kelpie into her tank. No, that's the knock. That's what I'm talking about. She also brings a pet kelpie. Also a kelpie. OK, what's interesting about this to me? I don't remember. I don't remember if we know. I don't think we know if Theon is starboard. He has the knife.

1:37:11 You don't know. He has the knife. He has the sword. He presumably wields them both. He definitely dipped them in the cauldron. Is it not interesting that this kelpie has now dragged 2 star starborn people into the depths of the bog of Orid? We don't know why there's clearly other people in the bog, right? Like Heiress's soldiers are there, but the kelpie can is attracted to can spot these starborn people but doesn't know the mask is there has no idea that the mask is at the bottom of the bog of Orid.

1:37:37 Like, OK, I just had this crazy theory kind of come together for me and you could tell me if you think it's crazy. If the ancient Faye were sacrificing people to the kelpie and if the star born Faye are in fact descendants of the Asteri like we thought they were, and they were perhaps potentially a threat to the Asteri. Was it like star born Faye specifically that they were sacrificing to the kelpie?

1:38:00 Like does the kelpie have some radar basically for star born Faye? And this was a way to like call the star born Faye population, keep them in line, potentially sacrificing them to this kelpie. Totally precog, totally out there. I just came up with that on On the Spot. But like, I mean, we're going to get into the great right next episode.

1:38:19 Like is it a similar idea here with the with the sacrifices? Interesting. I like that. It would be interesting. I was thinking more are the star born Faye, Nesta and Theon. So like is their power so concentrated that they basically set off a similar alert to to what a core of first light would set off?

1:38:38 Like are is their power so concentrated that they are gravitated to them the same way that like like a worm or a kelpie would be gravitated to a pocket of interesting because they are it would it's supposed to be light, right? Yeah. I mean, with the kelpie and Theon, it does seem like Thea and the kelpie were, like, in cahoots. Because it gives her the dagger after. Yeah.

1:39:02 And we know it speaks the language of the ancient face. So in theory, it could be reasoned with, but you got to wonder why it would work with, why it would work with Thea, Right, Because it gave up the knife. So what did the kelpie get out of that? Just like a tasty meal. What's it getting out of it?

1:39:15 Also, I mean, I know the bog dies. The kelpie does not kill its prey right away. Are we 100% sure that Fionn died? Like, are we 100% sure that that's what happened there? I don't know. I think there's room for. I think there's some wiggle room. I mean, what would he be now about? 15 hours. The cereal.

1:39:35 The cereal. I have not. That's kind of why I didn't really go down that that route home. Like it's 15,000 years later. He's fucking dead now. Like yeah, anyway, anymore. Anything on the kelpie? Thank you, read everything. I mean just that there is a pet kelpie that Jessica brings back in Midgard so they are over there as well.

1:39:55 Interesting. She brings a pet kelpie and it's very short lived. She brings him back into a tank. He like humps the tank and Bryce makes sure that the kelpie is given to a client very very quickly. Oh, yeah, I do remember this. That's so interesting, though, that then why did Bryce say it looked like the knock, not the kelpie? Maybe it's a different kind of kelpie. Maybe Sarah forgot she wrote this part of the book. I don't know.

1:40:20 Who knows? All right. OK, I don't have answers. This is not a podcast for answers, guys. All right. It's not a podcast for answers. Last question, Ronnie, what are the creatures underneath the Hewn City? Yes, so we talked about this a bit before on our Believe Reese Part 1 deep dive. That is a plug.

1:40:42 But Hewn City, there are creatures under it literally alive in a pit. So contextually, the Hewn City is a city carved into a mountain, right? Another one that is. Another one. Maybe it's carved by the worm, It's carved into a mountain. That's this whole thing, right? Hewn means cut into. So it literally means it's a city that's got into something.

1:41:05 I want to start by saying, and maybe we're going to talk about this more at some point, I'm sure, but I want to start this question by saying that the Hewn City overall is very much giving hell. We've never really talked about this in the mass verse section overall because we've never had a question about anything in the Hewn City in the mass verse section. So this feels like a good time.

1:41:23 Here's army is called Dark Bringers, right? They fight with shadows and steel and plumes of shadows flare out from Kir himself in battle. And we just have never talked about them, which is kind of crazy, but we will, I'm sure. And he lives underground with a bunch of scaled reptilian beasts, which we're going to talk about. So with that context, let's discuss the creatures in the human city.

1:41:44 We get imagery of these beasts in a few places, but importantly, they're just alive in a pit. So these actual living beasts are in a pit in the human city that is effectively A torture chamber. So when the Night Court has enemies that they don't intend on bringing out alive, their bodies go into a pit and these beasts devour them. So in A Court of Silver Flames Chapter 37, when the Autumn Court soldiers that were under the influence of the crown were being held and interrogated, they were in this room that's an interrogation chamber.

1:42:16 And it's basically an interrogation chamber that has the pit kind of lingering there. And in describing this pit, they're talking about how you know when you're done with people who aren't going to live, they eventually get put into this hatch. And that quote is those went through the Hatch in the center of the circular room and into the pit of riding beasts below, to their scales and claws and merciless hunger. The beasts did not feed often.

1:42:41 They could receive a body every 10 years and make it last, going into hibernation between meals. These beasts are carved into the gates of the Hewn City as well, probably. We're not given like complete very complete descriptions of the beast really at any point. We're just given a lot of claws, scales, talons every once in a while.

1:42:59 But in 1/4 Mist and Fury chapter 42 when we first see the human city, which is such a great description. I love that whole passage. I'm not going to read it right now, it's so good. Great scaled black beasts were carved into those gates, all coiled together in a nest of claws and fangs, sleeping and fighting, some locked in an endless cycle of devouring each other.

1:43:19 So there's gates in the Hewn City. The scaled black beasts are carved into those gates, so they are effectively mascots of the Hewn City. They're also on the throne. I mean they are everywhere. They're on the throne, yeah, everywhere in the huge yes yeah. You'd be hard pressed to find anything in the Hewn City without those weaved in there somewhere.

1:43:38 We also see them in the vision that Lanthus sends Nesta in 1/4 of silver flames. And that is not that is not hypothesis, that is Canon. Nesta says those are them later in the So that's the Court of Silver Flames, Chapter 54. Nesta could see the portrait Lanthus wove into the air around them. She saw herself on a black throne, a matching crown, and her unbound hair.

1:44:00 Enormous Onyx beasts, scaled like those she'd seen on the Hewn City's pillars, lay at the foot of the day, lay at the foot of the dais. Ataraxia leaned against her throne, and on her other side, Lanthus sat there, his hand laced through hers. So the vision that Lanthus is sending Nesta in the prison when Nesta is about to engagement battle and Lanthus is trying to convince Nesta to come be his wife basically is hey, roll with me.

1:44:27 Remember, we don't really know what Lanthus is at this point. We're like kind of caught between a sea Valgus. He hell, is he a Steri? What really is he? He's sending a vision to her that they are on seemingly the human city throne or a throne that has the beasts in the human city alive and guarding them at the foot of the dais as guard dogs basically that are protecting them.

1:44:50 There are some other beasts that we see in Prythian that I think are very similar to these hounds as well. These beasts the 1st and we talked about this, so I'll just like cover it off quickly. And if you want to hear more, you should go listen to Reese Part 1. Reese's beast form, right, is basically bees plus wings because Reese's half valerian. So we have two points of view that have pretty good descriptions, decent descriptions of Reese's bees form.

1:45:17 The 1st is favor is POV in a court of Wings of Ruin when they are in battle and Reese is basically fully shifting into his beast form for really the only time that we see him do that. The talons came first, replacing fingers and feet, then dark scales or perhaps feathers. I couldn't get a look at them. Covered his legs, his arms, his chest. We later hear their scales.

1:45:38 So they're they are scales. His body contorted bones and muscles growing and shifting. The beast form Reese had kept hidden never liked to unleash unless it was dire enough to do so. Before the cauldron swept me away, I beheld told what happened to his faith, beheld what happened to his head, his face.

1:45:53 It was a thing of nightmares, nothing human or fae in it. It was a creature that lived in black pits and only emerged at night to hunt and feast the face. It was those creatures that had been carved into the rock of the Court of Nightmares that made-up that made-up his throne. The throne not only a representation of his power, but of what lurked within. And with the wings hybrid soldiers began fleeing. Helion beheld what happened Ran 2 but toward Reese shifting as well.

1:46:20 And then we get Helion shifting, which is basically the daytime equivalent of that exact beast, which is interesting but not for this episode. And then we get Nestus POV in her mind, which is Reese in his mind. In her mind Reese is asking for permission to talk to Nesta mind to mind and she sees him in her mind and it's his beast form.

1:46:40 So the thing that stood beyond the fortress of her mind was a creature of claws, scales and teeth. So both Reese's beast form and Reese's consciousness is this beast that's carved into the human cities pillars, which is super interesting. And then the last, the last beast that I think we see that's pretty similar, this is not canonically the same beast, but I think it's quite similar is the not a hound that the king of Hyburn is using in battle, which is all, which are also probably the hounds that are not hounds that Reese references that are used in the Wild Hunt.

1:47:11 So there's when Reese is describing the Wild Hunt, he says that they have hounds that they use that look nothing like the hounds that you know, they're like Serpentine reptilian beasts. The Not a hounds seem like they're also that, so they're these are kind of everywhere the not a hounds are described as in Aqua chapter 65.

1:47:26 This is Farah, the nearest hound. This is when they're in. They're saving Elaine from Hyburn's camp, The nearest hound. It was not a hound, I realized as the arrow spiraled for its head, but some cousin of the not a, some monstrous scaled thing that thundered on all fours, Serpentine face snarling and full of bone shredding white teeth.

1:47:46 My arrow went right through its throat and we later learned that it has black scales. So we have a lot of like black scaled reptilian dark things. What are they? I think we have one comp in another book that I think it could be and I think that's a word hound potentially. I don't know if you want to add anything before we go into other series and talk about like the Asteri relationship.

1:48:16 Yeah, I'm more talked about. I mean, I think they're the duck. Like they are the Daglin hounds, right from the Wild Hunt. I mean like. I think that's what these are like. They're the Daglin Hounds. But the thing that is interesting to think about, we can talk about Warren Hounds in a second. They're not really that noteworthy. The thing that's interesting to think about is like how hell like the human city feels.

1:48:37 But the creatures that we see from hell are these like Milky white transparent, weird like crystallos like creatures not like this like the hell creatures don't look like this, but the vowel creatures do like the ilken, the word hounds. They all have this type of imagery. So once again, this is not an Answers episode, but I think these are definitely the Daglin's creatures.

1:49:04 These are definitely creatures that were created by and left by the Daglin. I think that's like a no brainer in the scope of Prythian. What are they outside the scope of Prythian? I feel like we're getting a lot more similarities between these creatures and the creatures that we see in Throne of Glass that are related to the Val Warriors than we are to the demons that are released from hell like the Cristalos and adjacent creatures.

1:49:31 Yeah, I, I mean, even if you take hell out of it for a second, like the they, these are definitely made by the Esteri. Like, and if all the Daglin hound imagery was not enough, it's they respond to Bryce's star, right? Would Bryce's star in House of Flame and shout out when she goes to the pit? Would Bryce's star flares the dogs? I mean, the hounds calm down basically, right? Like they, they respect her.

1:49:56 It'll fuck with her right they it's cute they recognize what this power is and they recognize it as its master basically right. So like, undoubtedly these are hounds created by the Esteri, but they feel so Valk. They have talents, they have claws, they're sorry, they have scales, they have claws, they have talents.

1:50:18 Like it's exactly what you said. It's the imagery is so Valk. And so we're once again question, I am once again questioning that how all these pieces fit together because yeah, it's I don't think the hysteria and the valgar are the same. And then you throw things like this in here and I'm not sure anymore, you know?

1:50:37 Yeah, I also think the other thing I think is fun is that down to the Illyrian armor, everyone is made to look the same. The Illyrian armor is black scaled, made to when they are dressed, have them looking like these beasts. They're like the Night Court Daglin Stronghold army. If you picture it back to when these like beasts fought on their behalf and were controlled by the Daglin, all looked like one.

1:51:03 Yeah, I would imagine right. These these beasts seem to be like the stand standard bearers for the Daglin. Like they are all over the Huon city. The Illyrian armor is modeled after them. They're still here. They're still alive 15,000 years later like. They don't seem to fight in battle, but yeah, they're like very much the threat.

1:51:25 Reese, why didn't you fucking release the hounds against Hyburn? Like what are you doing? Why was Hyburn fighting with them? Well, so this is what I'm not. I'm not as sure on the not a hounds being the same thing. I agree the imagery is totally there, but Nesta does not say and Nesta seize these hounds.

1:51:44 Nesta does not say that those like that vision that Lamphas sent me was the not a hounds right? She specifically says it was the beast carton to the Hewn City, which is why I'm not as sure that the not a hounds. And what would be more sense? Is it the not a hounds and the word hounds were the same? That would make more sense.

1:52:05 I'm not. I've. I think we've talked about this before. I don't think these are word hounds. I think word hounds are a different thing. But. But we can talk about it. Yeah. And the word hounds, just for completeness, are they are also carved into stone, but they are carved into the King of Otterland's Castle clock tower situation. They are the gargoyles.

1:52:25 They're described as gargoyles and they also have Serpentine snouts, so they look like the not a hounds that's in Queen of Shadows. Chapter 27. Her heart leaped into a wild beat and she willed it to calm as she took in the details of the creature that now stood waist deep in the pool, water dripping off its massive arms and elongated Serpentine snout. She'd seen it before. 1 of the 8 creatures carved into the clock tower itself. 8 gargoyles that she'd once sworn had watched her.

1:52:53 And these word hounds, these word hounds do speak. So I think we we're dealing with like something a little bit different here, but we have the Serpentine and the Serpentine is Serpentine or Serpentine Serpentine. I have no idea but I think. I think I've said Serpentine. Serpentine is used to describe the not a hounds and the word hounds, and they're both called hounds.

1:53:16 And, and what's interesting about the word, so the reason I don't think that the word hounds are necessarily the same as these creatures is because I don't have, I didn't have this prep. So I don't have the line. But I believe there is a line where they are basically implied to be made of stone, if not word stone, like some kind of stone.

1:53:30 Like I always saw the the word hounds as a magic more than a creature, basically. I could be wrong about that, but that was always how I interpreted that. But what's interesting is that the king can see through the eyes of the word hounds, right? Like it's kind of a hive mind situation, if I'm remembering this correctly.

1:53:49 I didn't prep this part again. We have a moment like that with Bryce and these hounds too. What we have is, where is it, though? Bryce focused on her breathing, as she learned to do in the wake of losing Danica, as she learned to do in the face of all those Vanier and Faye who'd sneered at her. The star kept glowing, pointing the way the creature settled as if her emotions were theirs.

1:54:12 She willed herself to calm, to feel No Fear. The creature settled further. Some laid their heads down. She glanced at the star in her chest, still glowing brightly. These are your champions too. It seemed to say. The star hadn't been wrong about Hunt or Cormac. So Bryce stuck 1 foot over the ledge.

1:54:29 The beast didn't move. She let her foot drop a little lower. Dangling bait. Nothing. And what that's in reference to is that Cormac had told her that her star would glow in the presence of her. Like chosen champions, basically. Right, So the stars glowing around these Daglin hounds. And then also they are responding to her emotions, right?

1:54:49 Like they are feeling the same emotions that she's feeling. It's like 2 levels of things going on here, right? Like they are respecting her authority, but they also seem to somehow be linked up to her emotions, which kind of fits with the word hound things, but kind of is also something we've never seen before. So I think it's interesting.

1:55:06 I don't really know. I don't really know where that came from. You know, Bryce calls them cousins of the Sobac, but the Sobacs are live in the water. Like the Ocean Queen has pet Sobacs, which is kind of crazy. Yeah. Yeah. So basically the moral of this episode is they're all Asteri creatures at the end of the day, except baby the Surya.

1:55:30 We're not sure. Except for the human city is giving hell. Yeah, but human city is giving hell. The midden guard worm definitely tied to the Osteria, but maybe their home planet and Cure wields shadows. We will talk about the human city. We will talk about the human city. Yeah, it's fine. It's fine. And so did the Valk and these creatures look like. But it's fine.

1:55:53 It's fine. All right. Pre cog corner. Abby, what is your pre cog theory? All right, it's just a little one for this week. There's a very interesting line. I just want to read you this line and see what you think of it. So this is an Akimath chapter 45. This has nothing to do with creatures, just something I found.

1:56:10 So this is when Reese and Farah are training in the woods and Reese and Reese has just told Farah about his mother and his sister and Tam when killing them. And Farah feeling very angry. And the quote is perhaps it was the cold, perhaps it was his story. But horror, frost cracked in my veins, and the wild song of a winter wind howled in my heart. I felt it then, how easy it would be to jump between them, join them together.

1:56:33 My powers, each one of my animals halted midair and froze into perfectly carved bits of ice. One by one, they dropped to the earth and shattered. They were one. They had come from the same dark origin, the same eternal well of power. Once, long ago, before language was invented and the world was new. So what she's saying there is all of her powers were once won and had the same dark origin right? We have two characters with raw magic in this entire universe and that's Dorian and Elena.

1:57:08 Kind of wild that Elena has raw magic when we know that she is the daughter of a fire goddess, right? What my question is what happened so that the powers split? Splintered. Yes, like what has what has happened here? What is the dark origin? We've talked about the dark maker before, right? Like we've like that is usually used with the Valk and Dorian obviously has obvious valk connections, but like what is the origin of magic in this universe? Why was it all one?

1:57:37 Why has it split into these factions on Prythea? So. So Dorian is the child of a Valg infested human and a human right? And then Elena is the child of Mala, Firebringer and Brannon. And Dorian is descended. From Elena as well, right? Yeah, yeah. And Brannon, his bit is flames, yeah. Yeah, I think, I don't actually 100% know. So that's why I was that's what I was going to ask is I saw this wild theory and I don't remember who posted it. And so I'm sorry and I'm just going to say that I I'm sorry that I don't remember who posted it. And if you, if it was you, please comment like because I'm not calling the credit for this, but I saw a wild theory that was that was basically, and this

1:58:24 isn't answering question about splintering, but in Aqua War we have the Prithean version of the murder twins, right? Brandon, Branna and Dagna, Dagna incest twins, Branna and Dagda. I think it's Dagna. Whatever it sounds like, Brannon and Daglin like, it sounds the same. Maybe it's Brannah and Dagnan. Hold on, I think.

1:58:48 It's Brannah and Dagdon. I think that's what it is. I think it's Brannah and Dagdon. Brannah and Dagdon. And so this person's this person's question is why the fuck do we have two evil 2 like Valgie people on Prythian called Brannah and Dagdon? That sounds exactly like Brannon and Daglin. And are we supposed to be like, what's going on with Brannon? Well, yeah, I mean, I think we are supposed to be like what's going on with Brandon?

1:59:14 No matter. Well, and yeah, like and is all of this power stemming from from like Valgroots or like hell based roots as far as what happened to? It I mean, it's very clear that the Esteri and the gods, right? If they're not the same, if they are the same, have single track powers, right? Mala is fire, Deanna is silver flames. That's where it is the evening.

1:59:37 Star could this like could this possibly have had anything to do with the corruption of like, say and Theon aftermath happened, right? Like Celine was cleaning up a whole mess and during that time we split into courts. Yeah. At that point there, I think there was already regional magic by then. Yeah, because the fire Breakers in the South, the fire bringers are in the South. So I don't know when this split, but the trove already existed, and the harp can separate magic.

2:00:09 So could there have been a decision to avoid a concentration of too much power? Could we have decided to separate the powers? Using the harp. But if there were already regional powers when that corruption occurred, I don't think that that's really possible. Unless Fionn made the decision, like made the decision to separate the powers, then it's possible. I don't think we've seen any.

2:00:31 I could be wrong. We're going to do our Crescent City soon. I don't think we've seen any of Fionn's powers. No, I don't think we know. We have no idea. I we have no idea. Yeah, OK, unanswered question, but good questions, I think. All right, let's talk about the worm. I'm so excited. Yeah, the worm.

2:00:49 So I don't know whether this is it, but I think I think we might have been shown where the worm crossed over between Midgard and Perthian. And I think we also might have been shown where the connections are in these fucking tunnels. And it's inspired by your archway theory. Hey, yay. OK, so this is in House of Flame and Shadow Chapter 12. Context for everybody.

2:01:14 Obviously you've been here for this full episode, so you know that the midden guard worm is in Prytheon. It's obviously named after Midgard. Did it come from Midgard? Where is it actually from? We don't know. Abby, you had a theory that archways denoted that there had been world walking somewhere at some point, that there had been like a.

2:01:34 Portal opened by the horn, the horn and the harp. The horn and the When the horn, When the horn and the harp are used to gather a physical archway manifest that is permanent. Yeah. It's the theory, Yeah. Yeah. So when Bryce and Nesta and Azrael are walking through the tunnels underneath the prison and the heating city, like when they're going through that whole network, there's all of these carvings in the Wall Street. And Bryce is like an art historian. And so she's actually, like, taking an interest in them. But there's a lot of other shit going on. So we're not really paying attention to, like, what's on these carvings.

2:02:11 And I want to be, but I wasn't really either. And in these passages, Bryce is looking at the walls. And she says these reliefs tell a narrative to you know. Nest appeared up at the images, the three dancing, Faye in the foreground, the stars overhead the scattered the mountain island with the castle atop its highest peak.

2:02:30 And again, always the reminder of that suffering underworld beneath it. Memento Mori and of all and ego. What sort of narrative? Bryce shrugged. If I had a few weeks, I could walk the whole length and analyze it. But you don't know our history, and that's just said it have no context for you. I don't need contacts or has a universal language.

2:02:47 So what struck me in that scene was that how she's looking at these carvings, it's not clear, right? Like they're they seem to be the story of Prythian. They could also be referring to Avon, but it seems to be the story of Prythian. And Bryce in italics says memento Mori at an evol in ego. So she's saying, remember, you must die and an evol. And there I am also in these tunnels. And then later in the passage, like in that in the passages that she's walking through, the passage says the river. It was still a thunderous roar when the carvings changed. Normally they were full of life and action and movement, but this one was simple, clearly meant to be the sole focus, something of great importance to

2:03:30 whoever had carved it. An archway had been etched, stars glimmering around it, and in that archway stood a male figure, the image created with impressive depth. His hand was upraised in greeting, and Bryce might have looked closer had the midden guard worm not exploded from the river behind them. So I think this could have at one point been an indication that these tunnels could have at one point linked to hell. And I think that the tunnels in a ball and also linked to, I mean, we know that the tunnels in a ball and also linked to hell.

2:04:03 Yeah, and I think the worm had to carve both of them. I think the worm absolutely had to carve. So there is an archway in the tunnel. There's an archway with a rising sun above it, if I'm remembering correctly, in the tunnels underneath the prison. Yeah, So, and we know, like, there's more than one, there's more than one archway because there's a prison.

2:04:23 There's an archway in the harp room too, and we know that there. I believe there's an archway in the tunnels underneath the in The Cave of Princess too, so like it all adds up. That and archways can kind of point wherever you want them to, right? Like Bryce changes where the Northern Rift is pointing to, so I don't know that it matters if it's pointing to hell or pointing to Midgard or what. Hell was basically like the pass through for this worm. Which would also kind of explain the fact that if Hell and Hysteria have the same home world, it's not really of Midgard I.

2:04:53 Think it is of. Midgard because of the yeah, yeah, but that's like how it got how it carved both the tunnels in a ball and and the tunnels in Prythian. And how those tunnels look the same is because the worm came from hell. And yeah, that was the linking point. I agree. Yes, I agree. I think that I think the worm is from a third place. I think there was or maybe still is a worm on Midgard, and I think there was or still, obviously there still are worms on Prithian.

2:05:26 The question is though, how did it get its name right? Like why is its name so similar to Midgard if we're told the only Faye that came back that ever came back were Celine and Bryce and we have no record of Celine ever. Like coming into contact with a worm basically, you know what I mean? I don't know.

2:05:43 I'm not sure. I still think that the worm came through hell. The worm came through the bottom of the library from hell. Well, yeah, I mean, so we know there's all these shortcuts in Prithean, right? So like the worm is using those. It's not. So we we think basically the word can use whatever interdimensional Ley lines there are two which would make you should actually make a ton of sense if it's from the Asteri home planet that it has whatever world walking abilities the Asteri also kind of have well. Also, like if these are just thin places with like some sort of archway, maybe, maybe, maybe it does have world walking abilities or maybe it is just let through. Yeah, yeah.

2:06:26 Yeah. But it does seem like it came up right? Because the library is like this, isn't it? It's like it's funnel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the bottom of the library is what pulses like hell. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see it. I see it. I don't know. The theory is the worm came through hell to a ballin like hell is the link between a ballin and the tunnels under the Heun City and the prison.

2:06:56 Yeah yeah. And the Heun City is the link to Al Heun City in the library which are linked by these like based traveling tunnels. And we will do a Places episode and get into the Heun City. Don't you worry. Yes. OK, well, we are on social media. You can find us on TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, Dragons in the Details pod.

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