ACOTAR: The Mother Deep Dive | Who is Prythian’s Creator, Really?

0:00 When Nesta wears all the items from the troph, what the mother says to her is, do you see how it might be what you might do? That is not what I would have expected the mother to say in that moment, right? So realistically, people are not going to know that I watched heated Rivalry in one day until February. Given how relevant heated rivalry is in this very moment, I feel like it will still be relevant in two weeks with this. Episode so but like people are going to think that I've just been sitting over here in a corner. Rivalry.

0:51 Yeah, Until February. To be fair, we went to trivia last night with two of our friends and they had never even heard of heated rivalry. And I was like, Oh well, let me fucking tell you about. Rivalry, that's kind of crazy because now it's award season. Like I would never have made it here without knowing what you did.

1:10 Rivalry is because we've now had the Golden Globes. Yeah, I know. Like that was a moment then presenting an award when in the show they also presented. Yeah, I know. So how was your heated rivalry experience? What were your thoughts? I. Feel the need to give some context. Heated Rivalry was my alchemist hangover choice. I don't know if it was so much of A choices. I posted an Instagram and you commented from the podcast. Heated Rivalry All caps.

1:43 And I want to be clear, actually, I don't remember, but I think I meant the book when I sent that to you. And I should have read the book first. I actually I'm kind of upset that I didn't read the book 1st. I'm going to read the book but I'm sad I didn't read it first because I've heard so much about how well done the adaptation was of the book specifically. I agree.

2:07 I watched the show first, though, and then I read the book and I do think the show, I think this, I think they they add to each other. They they're, they work well as a duo, but I do think the show really brings to life things that the book just kind of couldn't because it's a book. But it's they're both very good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

2:25 I'm more meant like I've, I was impressed by whoever is running the heated rivalry. TikTok needs a race. First of all, if you're out there, I just need you to know that I feel that way #2 They made some videos of like, key scenes and, like, overlaid the text from the books where the dialogue was like, verbatim the same, which made me so happy and sad for at the adaptations that I've watched in the past.

2:55 Because I'm like, this is how it should be done whenever possible. Like, why write a script? You have the script. The script exists. It's the book. Yeah. Well, I think the dialogue exists, right. There's other things that need to be figured out and added. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah. The screenplay does not exist. Yeah.

3:15 But the, the script, which is the words exist. Yeah. So I am sad that I didn't read the book. Anyways. So it was my hangover show. So I was like, I will just watch an episode and see how this goes. And then I watched the entire show in one day, which was which was a bit much and it wasn't like, Oh my God, I can't put this down necessarily. I mean, it got to that point like after episode, I don't know, four, I was like 4.

3:40 Episode 4, I'm going to finish this now, but I feel like I needed it on a smaller screen. I was like, why is so much sex on such a big screen in my house? Maybe that's just because my TV is too big in general, but yeah, I watched it all on one day. I, I devoured it immediately, Yeah. I didn't feel like they were a little bit quick off the quick off the mark as our.

4:05 Yeah, you're just like talking, like immediately. Yeah. I was like, whoa, take a girl to dinner first, you know? Like it was just like, yeah. There was never dinner. There was no dinner. Never. But it it, yeah. I mean, it just, it wins you over. It really wins you over with its charm. I don't know, Like Ilya and Shane are just like the fucking best. I don't know.

4:30 Yeah. And the cottage. Oh, the cottage. The cottage and also like for For me, there's something about a crumbling hard male exterior Ilia fucking gut Ilia Ilia gutted me Connor story gutted me. He was incredible The character was incredible. I love, I mean, I love a like Shane fell first Ilia fell harder type of trope.

4:57 Yeah, I love the fell harder trope. Yeah. And yeah, obviously like not everybody who's listening necessarily has watched Cheetah Rivalry, so I don't want to necessarily. It's a love story, guys. We don't want to spoil The Undefeated. It is a love story, but Karen, Shane and Ilya. There's going to be a season 2, which I'm very excited about. And now Rachel Reed is writing another sequel. It's part of the Game Changers series. I believe there's six books in the series. Ilya and Shane are book 2 and book 6, but now I believe she's writing a book 7.

5:33 That's also going to be Ilya and Shane. So we are potentially getting 3 of heated rivalry, which I just so happy with the way that this show is just like taking over everything and everyone's like, yes, we want this, we love this. This is so good. Like I it's just, it's just so heartwarming and so great. And I said this on Instagram, but I don't think I said this to you.

5:58 Like I feel like this is nothing but good for all these romanticy TV adaptations that are in limbo getting cancelled. Like this proves there's hey guys, like we can do this guy. Yeah. So I will say I heard what you were saying about the set being a little bit low budget, but I also feel I hope that they don't change the vibe now that they are undeniably going to have a larger budget.

6:27 Because I feel like because the set was so simplistic, they had to the the camera work was so the screens were full of the characters, like the full time of, of the actors faces and bodies. And it made the show feel much more intimate. Yeah. But rather than having kind of just a lot of, you know, yeah.

6:50 Like this show, this show came down to the acting. That's what that's what this show was. And they fucking knocked it out of the park. It was so good. It was so good. Connor's story. Oh my God, A star is born. Like so fucking good. And unfortunately, I am going to need him to play more Russian parts.

7:09 Yeah. Seeing him like transform into Elliot, like they're not the same person. No, they're not. You can tell, like you can literally just look at him and know whether he's in character or not. You know what's funny? I feel kind of bad because I I mean, Shane is the quieter character, right? Shane is not the big character.

7:30 Shane is quieter. And I definitely, when I was watching it was like, I don't know, like like like Connor story's so great. I'm not totally sure Hudson Williams is like necessarily as on his. Level feel like everyone's obsessed with that. Yeah, but now seeing him walk around and seeing what he's actually like, I'm like, Oh no, he really was.

7:48 He really was acting like he was really like he was fucking. Bringing it and he did great and it was. That's great. They're both great. So good. Yeah, yeah. I feel like people are very much into into Hudson Williams. I'm just I'm so happy for these boys. Good job, guys. Like just so great, so great.

8:07 BBB. I was about to say bravo because I'm always saying bravo because I'm always praising female authors on this podcast, but bravo, yeah, we'll give it up for the boys, a small. Clap for the man. Snap snaps now we men, women, you're making great shit. We're here for it. We just love a good story.

8:31 And we love, love and we love. Hi, I'm Abby, I'm Ronnie and this is Dragons in the details, where we take apart our favorite fantasy series over the course of an undetermined number of episodes. This season. We are currently covering a Court of Thorns and Roses series, also known as Acatar by Sarah J Mass Disclaimer These episodes, the not episodes episodes will contain spoilers for the entire Acatar series. We will announce any other Mass for spoilers ahead of time, and we keep them to the second-half disclaimer. This podcast is rated R.

9:09 We've already been talking about spicy stuff, guys, you know this by now. Do not listen to it with your children or do whatever you want. We're just telling you it's rated R. Viewers under 17 must be accompanied by a parent or adult guardian. See it in theater. OK, So if you're with a parent, I guess it's fine.

9:26 If you're together, it's OK, yeah. Each week we typically dive into a specific topic in depth. This week we are digging into Prithians OG, the mother. She's definitely the OG. She's definitely the OG. Yeah, you have the. Cauldron and she Yeah. We come with receipts, we have quotes to back up any theory so you can follow along if you're skeptical.

9:54 Ron, do you want to do announcements for this week? Sure. Deep dive music as always and also audio editing most of the time for this podcast brought to you by Shwoodly AKA Derek. Check them out on Spotify if you like our deep dive music and whatever platform you are listening, it would be awesome if you could, if you're not already subscribed on that platform, just click that little subscribe button. That means a lot to us.

10:19 We are a small podcast, but we were trying to grow. Spotify told me that typically podcasts of our size have about 6000 subscribers and we have a 3000 guys. So if you listen to us on Spotify and you want to support us and you like what we do, we would really appreciate it if you would subscribe. Because then when our boyfriends are like, why are you spending so much fucking time on this podcast? We could say, well, we have 6000 subscribers, so there. Yes, yeah, it would mean a lot if you did so thank you so much. And also sometimes I'll be on social media and I'll just say see the same creators again and again because TikTok will just serve them to me even if I don't follow them. If that's how you come across us

11:00 on social media, just follow us. It's so much easier. Consider it. Consider. It if you want to, if you want to, if you want to. We consider it. So that's our plug. And also we announced last week that our next season is going to be Crescent City. So we will be covering Crescent City in the next few weeks. Yes, soon TBD.

11:24 We will. Clarify timing in the next. Several weeks, we are going to take a little break, guys. We're warning you now. We don't know how long that breaks going to be. It's not going to be too long. We promised that. But last season we did not take a break and that was a mistake and we were a little burnt out and we don't want to burn out, so we're going to take a little.

11:41 Break so that. We can read the absolute fucking tomes that are Crescent City. And now we got to read like 3000 pages, guys. We just need a little bit. It's not even really a break. You just get a break and we have to do other stuff, yeah. We got to do, we have a lot of homework to do, but that's the thing, we love homework.

11:59 Yeah. So anyways, my point to that was next season is going to be the covering Crescent City. So now would be a great time to start reading those if you have not read them already. And also if you have read them and you've not read Throne of Glass, we will still have mass first sections. So read the mass first, maybe if you want, if you want, if you want.

12:21 If you will. We know that a lot of you are reading the Mass First right now. We get a lot of comments. I love them. They're so fun. They're like, we're so excited to come back to the Mass First section. We are excited for you too. My advice is to not rush. Do not rush. Do not burn yourself out on Mass First books. We will be here for you whenever you're done. These are forever.

12:40 They're just going to be out there so you can come back whenever you finish and there's no rush. Savor it. Because what I would not give to read these books again for the first time. OK, that's it. Anything else? No I was just going to say I actually I've been dabbling in rereading Imperian here and there and I'm like starting to itch for any period reread. I love it so much.

13:01 I, I severely, I overdid it. I overdid me. And the Imperian will come back together soon. We have time, all right. Corrections, omissions, social media shout outs. Do we have any? I have one. We got a comment on TikTok. I don't know what to call these slideshow theory slideshow. Sure. On these slideshows that we've started, we're experimenting. Guys.

13:26 Let us know how you like them. We got a comment on the Bone Carver slideshow from S. Just the letter S and I thought it was a really good theory. I love it. I don't know why I didn't think of it and S said hello. I have a semi crackpot theory. We love those. What if the bone Carver appears as your potential cause of death slash demise? He presents as next to Farrah and Farrah would have died during childbirth if it wasn't for Nesta. We don't know how he presented to Cassie and the Cassie and seem very uncomfortable with whatever he was seeing. And it is super random for the Bone Carver to present as jury into Reese.

14:05 No, Unless Jurian ends up betraying the inner circle or Reese in the upcoming book that results in either Reese's death or puts Reese in great danger in some way that has the potential to cause his death. The Bone Carver is obsessed with death. I love this idea. He carves your death, and maybe he shows you your death.

14:24 Yeah, I really like the idea. And I was kind of bending my brain trying to think like, could Jurian have been a domino effect that led to Reese's death in ACA war? I guess technically, kind of. Maybe. I mean, I don't know. There were a lot of dominoes there. Obviously played for the good guys in the end, so I think it would be kind of unfair to say Domino for that. I hate the idea of Jurian somehow leading to Reese's death, which pretend I'm putting up. I'll just put up clothes even though I'm freezing. But he's still alive and he's still around and there has to be a reason for it, right?

15:01 She's got to be. She's got to be playing some game with Jurian, and I don't know what it is. I don't know. I don't know what it's going to be. Yeah, and we don't know what he presented as to anyone else. So I do think we should think about the fact that he chose to be an Illyrian warrior. I think that's fucking interesting.

15:20 And we didn't talk about it at all. I didn't even think about it. Until I was looking at some fan art today, I was like, Oh yeah, Oh yeah, That was a choice he made. I thought that was a great little theory. Thank you S for the comments. Now I will be worrying about Jurian, but that's OK. I like it. I like that idea.

15:41 I hope, I hope there is at some point an explanation for it, at the very least that we find out why the bone Carver appeared as Jurian. All right, Ronnie, this is our fun question for the weak guy. Sorry. What do you think the mother's vibe is? Yeah. And what I meant by this is, what kind of mother do you think she?

16:00 OK, I really was not sure what you meant by it. Well, I feel like there's, I don't know, there's when you hear the mother, there's like nurture and there's mothering and there's mother Henning and there's like, you know, strict and we, I feel like, get different personifications of her over the course of this series.

16:23 I think she's I picture her as stern. I picture her as lovingly stern. I don't know that I can answer this question without getting into my theories later, but. Choose the vibe, You don't have to talk about this. I think I think lovingly Stern works. I think in ACOTAR she definitely comes across as like truly mothery and nurturing. And then I think as we move through the series, it's a little more duplicitous.

16:53 I guess I'll say I'll leave it at that. But yeah, I think lovingly stern is good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's fair. Cool. All right, shall we deep dive? Let's deep dive. All right, Ronnie, who or what is the mother? Yes, so. I will talk about my perspective on the Mother and some of the context in which we see her.

17:22 I admit that you kind of have to take like a personal lens on this. I think you have to take a personal lens on it. The Mother I interpret as one of two primary deities referenced in Corinthian, the other being the cauldron. And I know we'll talk about the cauldron. I split this question into talking about her in three different contexts.

17:43 A literally religious context, A generally spiritual context, and then a literally alive context. These are the three ways I think that Prythian interacts with the Mother. I think the Mother is, in short, Prythian's closest comp to God. Like she is the creation story, she is a subject of worship to the priestesses, right? The Mother is said to have effectively poured Prythian out of the cauldron.

18:10 So she and the cauldron are the creators of this world. We see this on a mural and Tamlin study that is interesting. Interestingly kind of been tucked away and forgotten, but Farrah finds it and that's an Akatar. Chapter 13 And that quote is the story of of Prythian. It began with a cauldron, a mighty black cauldron held by glowing, slender female hands in a starry, endless night. Those hands tipped it over, golden sparkling liquid pouring out over the lip.

18:39 No, not sparkling, but effervescent, with small symbols, perhaps of some ancient fairy language. Whatever was written there, whatever it was, the contents of the Cauldron were dumped into the void below, pouring, pooling on the earth to form our world. Priestesses from all regions, I assume all regions, but we know of 2 for sure.

18:57 Two very different ones pledge their lives to the Mother. So we learned this at first in Acamath via I Anthe. So in chapter 2, we learned that I Anthe beseeches the Cauldron and the Mother when she needs to go pray. Obviously we know that I Anthe is the fucking devil Incarnate, but we learn from I Anthe and the descriptions of her that I Anthe is kind of priestess Cohort worships the Mother.

19:21 And then in Akor we also learn that the mother serves as a source of absolution to Faye, pleading for forgiveness. So kind of similar to confession. Again, this is another God comp. You learn that Tamlin comes to Ianthi to plead for absolution from the Mother and the Cauldron after he blows apart his studies.

19:45 We also learn in A Court of Silver Flames that Gwynn and the priestesses in the library worship the Mother, in my opinion a little bit more legitimately. So we got several references to the Mother through Gwen and the library's priestesses services, both from their past lives and from the library itself. So we learned that the priestesses of the library honor the Mother and the Cauldron, and they have a service for them at dawn, dusk, and on every holy day. I thought that was interesting because I kind of, it kind of seemed like dawn and dusk.

20:19 We're every day all right. Maybe there's like an afternoon or a mid morning. I don't know. I just thought that was an interesting quote anyway. And Gwen says we honor the Mother and the Cauldron and the forces that be. Yeah. So again, there's this concept of the Mother, the Cauldron. Then there's this like other the forces that be fate.

20:47 There's there's that whole part of it, but I. Remember highlighting in my book What the fuck are the forces that be? Yeah. Probably nothing, probably just a throwaway line, but. And these priestesses, in my opinion, seem much more literally in touch with the Mother. So they've got these invoking stones.

21:07 The power of the Mother is said to flow through it. We're going to talk about what that power is. But basically, they're stones are actually used for healing and protection, and they like, have the powers of the Mother in them. And then in Gwyn's past life, before the library at Sanger BA, they practiced ancient movements that the priestesses would go through.

21:27 That quote, let them commune with the Mother. So that is in chapter 25 of A Court of Silver Flames at the temple in Sangrava. We had a set of ancient movements that we would go through every sunrise, not for battle training, but for calming the mind. We did cooldowns after those two that we call them groundings.

21:44 The movements took us out of our bodies in a way. Let us commune with the Mother. Well, so here's what I think is interesting, right? Like Gwen says that and you think nothing of it and then Nesta has fucking conversations with the mother. So did Gwen literally commune with the mother? Did she mean that literally or did she mean it in a more spiritual sense?

22:03 I don't know. But it seems like there is a tie between Nesta having conversations and finding like strength in these movements and whatever Gwen was doing in those and communing with the mother. Yeah, the mother likes a calm mind. Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah, it's interesting. In the services that the priestesses host in the library or the one that we witness, Meryl speaks about the Mother and the cauldron and the land and sun and water.

22:33 So in the services themselves, they're talking about the Mother invoking the Mother and pranked her. There is also the concept of, again, this is all like religious context, right? There's the concept of the final rite. Cauldron save you, Mother hold you pass through the gates and smell that immortal land of milk and honey. Fear no evil, feel no pain.

22:55 Go and enter eternity. The land of milk and honey is in reference to the promised land, right? That's from the book of Exodus. So we've got a like literal tie to the Bible and the other together. Yeah. Mother God comp. So, yeah, so that's all in a religious context. That being said, we do get, we've gotten a few already right, like hints and like acknowledgments that there's this broader force and we get a very a pretty strong one from Nesta. She references something vaster than the mother that brought her to the harp chamber.

23:32 That quote is she had the creeping feeling she'd been brought here, not by the cauldron or the mother or the harp by something vaster something that stretched into the stars carved all around them. It's cool. Light hands guided her wrists as she picked up the harp. So whoever the Mother is, whatever the Mother is, there's something else around it and it's not, it's probably not the cauldron because the Cauldron is also a thing that we have seen and Nesta knows what the Cauldron feels like. So the Mother might not be the end all be all force in this world.

24:03 Finally, there's the literally alive context, right? Friendly reminder, right, that if the two deities are the Mother and the Cauldron, we know that the Cauldron is real. Like the Cauldron is real, given the events of the series and the fact that the cauldron was physically in front of us and people went into it and came out of it and it broke and it came back together. Like it is very much a physical, real item. And so we have pretty good reason to believe that the mother is also real.

24:31 I think she saves Farah and Nick's. Yeah, probably. Make sure we'll talk about that in the next question. She protects Nesta, Emery and Gwen, probably. Sure. We'll talk about that in the next question too. And she's an active participant in this story. She's not just a deity that people are praying to.

24:49 Like she's out here, she's doing things, she's participating. She seems to be talking to Nesta. She's not just this thing that people pray to. She's doing stuff. There is reference to a dark mother. There is I have a not A and this is an ACOTAR chapter 15. So like very early on, very early and the not a are coming for favor after favor trapped the surreal and the not a say the dark mother has sent us a gift today, brothers, he said gazing at the surreal who is clawing at the snare now. The Nagas amber eyes shifted toward me again. And a meal which I never liked.

25:30 Focus on that quote before. It's interesting that the cereal is the gift. Yeah. What did the not a want to know? Or were they going to eat it? Yeah, and the not a are foreshadowy figures, so dark that they seemed made from a starless night. So there's the Mother. The Mother seems to be the only like deity force that's viewed on Prithean.

25:51 And so maybe it's just like these, these dark evil beings need to need something to worship too. They just made a dark version. Or maybe there's something going on here? Yeah, I think when I read that I just assumed it was Amarantha, but that doesn't really make sense. Like Amarantha was not viewed at A at a deity level by any means. So yeah.

26:12 So I don't know. Don't know about that. One. All right. Anything else on that one? No. What are the Mother's powers? All right. So she does seem to have actual real powers, as you referenced in in that last question. She's fucking real. Yeah, she's fucking real. She has real powers. So we're going to start small and then we'll go bigger.

26:31 So you mentioned Gwen's invoking stone. I'm just going to read that quote here. Gwen reached into the pocket of her pale robe and pulled out the bluestone of the priestesses as a reminder. This is when and Nesta and Emery are in the library and they are feeling some kind of dark, shadowy power coming from the pit at the bottom of the library.

26:50 It fluttered with light like the sun on a shallow sea. It's an invoking stone. When unfurled. Her fingers revealing the gem within her hand. Similar to the Siphons of the Illyrians, except that the power of the Mother flows through it. We cannot use it for harm, only healing and protection. It was shielding us.

27:06 So she literally, like the siphons of the Illyrians, has something that she can channel the power of the Mother through. In this case, we see it as a protecting, healing power. I would definitely say that is in line with what we understand about the Mother, but obviously there seem to be other other things that she can do, too. I don't know.

27:25 We have the line about her watching over Nestiguin and Emory in the blood, right? I don't know how much that I don't know how much that's a power. OK. You think it's a Yeah. OK, I'll read the quote. Yeah. I just got so bad. All right. I mean, I guess it's not, maybe it's not a power, but I think it's significant. It's significant.

27:43 It ties into the protection aspect of it. So Gwen and Emery and Nesta have found their way back to each other because of the charm bracelets that Nesta made when they all had their sleepover. And the charm bracelets, I believe, start glowing when they're going in the right direction. So the quote we have is, did you know this thing glows? I remembered what you wished for. I remembered your wish for us, that we'd always be able to find our way back to each other, no matter what. I figured it would lead me to you. It must be somehow immune to the magic ban in the right. Emory shuddered.

28:17 The mother watched over us. Nesta could have sworn that the charms on their bracelet let let out a soft singing. Come with that. So whatever the mother's power is, because it does seem like the mother. I mean, it's interesting, right? Like we're told that Nesta made the bracelets. Nesta's powers do not work during the blood, right? But for whatever reason, the mother's power here does seem to work, does seem to be, does seem to be protecting them, does seem to be shepherding them towards each other. The question is, why does the mother have such a vested interest in in these three, these three ladies? I think we talked about the communing with the mother. I had that here again, Gwen says

28:57 she can commune with the mother, but Nesta definitely can. So I think it's a question of what Gwen exactly means when she says that. So let's talk about Nesta hears the mother at least twice, at least twice confirmed, maybe other times, but at least twice confirmed. So when she's in the bog of Orid, the mother tells her to run, right? So Nesta, I wish I had written down more of this quote. Nesta, it has not found the mask is being attacked or about to be attacked by the kelpie, and she hears the mother tell her to run.

29:30 And then when Farrah is dying, I wrote down the mother speaks to her a lot. We'll get into all of that later. We will. Because what the mother does to her is like really interesting, but what she, what it starts with was in the beginning and in the end there was darkness and nothing more. A soft, familiar voice whispered the words as they had been whispered to her long ago. We we get those words in other places too, usually when the cauldron is involved.

29:57 So it's not like that crazy that the mother said them, but we get that phrase a couple times. And the darkness in this sentence, there was darkness. The D is capitalized, which I think is interesting. We haven't seen that anywhere else in ACUTAR, but it's there was capital D darkness and nothing more, implying this darkness is like an actual thing. So now we have possibly the biggest question. So she can maybe bring people back from the dead, maybe in conjunction with the Trove, maybe it's the Cauldron. I'm not really clear what who's doing this, but there are a lot of fucking powers at play in the room when NASA brings Pharaoh back from the dead.

30:35 So the quote we have Nesta whispered to the Cauldron, her promise rising above the den. I'll give it all back. We'll just go wide by line. We have Nesta making this bargain with the Cauldron, right? If you bring them back to life, if you help them, I will give my power back to you. So she's saying that to the Cauldron. Then we have and a soft, invisible hand brushed her cheek in answer.

30:56 That is the Mother, right? That's not the cauldron. That is the Mother brushing her cheek in answer. Iridescent light began flowing from Nesta's body into Pharah. Nesta kept holding her sister. I give it back, I give it back, I give it back. Nesta is also wearing the troph at this point, right? So we have her wearing the crown, wearing the mask, holding the harp, making a bargain with the cauldron. And the Mother has inserted herself into this situation, so I'm not sure which.

31:22 Power it is that's doing this. But the mother, certainly there was, if you show me how to save her, it wasn't even just save her, it was show me, which is kind of crazy when you think that's true. That's true. So Nesta kept holding her sister. I give it back, I give it back. I give it back. Even Reese stopped fighting. No one moved.

31:43 The light glimmered down Pharaoh's arms, her legs. It's suffused her ash and face began to fill the room. Pharaoh opened her eyes. So we have this light traveling from Nesta into Farrah, into Nick's. I didn't read that part. But there's also an iridescent light that is traveling over to Nick's.

32:02 And then Farrah comes back to life once again, once again. Or maybe she's at Death's doorstep and then and then comes back. I don't know. Unclear, but death. Is in the room death is awesome. Is in the room Death is Humper. Death is humperous. A lot of power. That part is worth reading out. Hold on. I think it's important to read because everyone up until this point, Nesta's powers have been Death, right? Death hovered nearby.

32:24 Nesta felt it saw a shadow thicker and more permanent than any of Azrael. Death is a shadow. Are you fucking? Kidding me? Later. Yes. So Death lurks near Pharaoh and her mate, a beast waiting to pounce, to devour them both. Nesta pulled her hand free of Elaine's, stepped back. She closed her eyes and opened that place in her soul that had torn free on Ramiel.

32:51 And that's when she pulls away. She goes to the trove and she plucks the string. So I don't think they died. Something about her sees death. Literally sees it. Yeah. Morboreal. Yeah. My God. I know, and so I don't know that I believe the mother brought them back from the dead. I certainly think the mother healed them, save their lives. That was the bargain.

33:14 Save them. Well, I have this is what's interesting here is I actually have that. I think this would actually be a really interesting twist. The way some of these things are worded, it is possible in my mind that the mother's power is actually death. I mean, it would make sense, right? If her power is life, that her power is also death.

33:33 The reason I have the quotes I have for that. The reason I'm saying that when Nesta is wearing the mask in Orid, we have the quotes. We have the quote drifting in the water, the power of the mask and Icy Song through her. Nesta summon the dead to do what her own body could not, right? So she's summoning the dead. And then when she is wielding the mask in Orid, Cassian says the figure looking out of the mask is Death herself. The quote we have for that is cold power rippled toward them, and as it hit Cassian let it surge past him, around him, yielded himself to it.

34:06 Because to stand against it would be to provoke the mask's wrath. To stand against it would be to stand against Death itself, Death herself. So we have Nesta wearing the mask and Cassian says the person, the thing wearing the mask, the thing peering out of the mask is death, right? And then later when Nesta wears the mask to say Pharah, Cassian says the thing that was peering out of the mask was the mother. So the quote we have for that is the mother, the only being who would see the sacrifice Nesta had made and give a little back. Perhaps it was she who had peered out at them through the mask.

34:41 So in the in the second time Nesta wears the mask, Cassian thinks it's the Mother peering out. Does that mean it was the Mother peering out the first time as well? And that her power is death? We're told Nesta's power is death. Nesta got her power from the cauldron. The Mother and the cauldron are like like this, right?

34:59 So like kind of kind of would make sense for the mother's power to be death. Is the mother the death in that room? I mean, that never occurred to me. But like, is the death hovering nearby the mother? I don't know. That's obviously not what I actually think. I want to be clear. But like, I don't know where you're going with this one. OK, so that's what I had for powers. Life death protection.

35:20 Life, death protection. Agree. She also helped alter anatomy, right? Yes, yeah, yeah. Specifically, childbirthing anatomy. Which makes sense. She's the mother. She's the mother, yeah. OK, that's a bring up fucking Tamlin. But in theory Tamlin could do this. In theory, fucking favorite could. Have done it. They are just.

35:45 Here's the I mean, not that we need to get into this, but would you have shifted your pelvic girdle? Because I would have yes, be like, I think this baby is going to be OK. And by the way, we'd both fucking die if I didn't do this, so. We're doing this. God, that was a little, not my favorite, but it's OK, Not my favorite.

36:06 Moral of the story. All right, Ronnie, what is? I mean, we've already kind of talked about it, but let's go about about it in more detail. What is the Mother's connection to the Cauldron? The Mother is pretty much always mentioned in conjunction with the Cauldron race. We talked about the the primary deities, a Mother of the Cauldron, sometimes forces that be, or whatever the fuck those are. I think it's pretty clear from the quotes that we already read out.

36:28 The only other thing that I'll call out specifically that I want to talk about is that while the Mother and the Cauldron are two partner forces, they are more yin Yang and sometimes even adversarial than always on the same same side it seems. And I think this comes through in chapter 77. So exactly what we were just talking about.

36:51 Nesta is making a bargain with the Cauldron, right? But the mother is also there. And I just want to read the part where the bargain tattoo was inked, because I think it's pretty interesting. According to Silver Flames chapter 77, I give it back. Nesta said one more time, and mask and crown tumbled from her head.

37:11 The light exploded, blinding and warm, a wind sweeping past them as if gathering every Shard of itself out of the room. And as it faded, dark ink splashed upon Nesta's back, visible through her half shredded shirt as if it were a wave crashing upon the shore. A bargain with the Cauldron itself. Yet Cassian could have sworn A luminescent gentle hand prevented the light from leaving her body all together. So I think there's a couple things to note here. 1, you can make a bargain with the cauldron, and it doesn't seem to be the same thing as a bargain with the Mother. To the Mother stopped it, like stopped the Cauldron from taking everything it seems.

37:53 And so the Mother might have enough power to manipulate bargains with the Cauldron. That's pretty significant. And the Cauldron and the Mother seem to be independently sentient beings, which I don't really know what to do with that. But the Cauldron this whole time has this vengeance towards Nestor, right?

38:11 Like Nestor took, I must get it back. I'm willing to help to give it back. Which kind of begs an interesting question. I'm kind of choosing to ignore it for the sake of this episode, but I like it's going to keep me up at night a little bit like who helped, right? Like who gave this power? Was it the Cauldron or was it the mother?

38:29 Because the bargain was show me how to save them and I will give it back to you. So was it the Mother saving them or was it the Cauldron? I don't actually know Saving. Farrah and Nick's. Showing us to how to save Farrah and Nick's. Showing us to how to save Farrah and Nick's. Yeah, I don't know.

38:45 There's a lot of people in that room, as we mentioned. But my point being, the cauldron you can have a bargain with, the mother can disagree with it. Yeah, which I think is really. I just want to to emphasize something you just said because I think it was such a good point and I I glossed over it.

39:01 The Cauldron hates Nesta and the mother loves Nesta, Right? Yeah. Which is kind of, that never even really occurred to me, but like, yeah, that's really interesting, I think. And this death power that Nesta has we know is from the cauldron. So like when whenever the mother is choosing to be there for Nesta, I don't necessarily know that it is tied to her power.

39:27 Like, I don't know if I'm wholly in the camp of Nesta has the power of the mother. I think the mother has power, is interested in Nesta, wants to protect Nesta. But Nesta has the power of the cauldron in this. Yeah, in this whole thing. And the mother in this passage that we just read basically said, hold up.

39:46 She gets to keep a little. And I So I don't know that Nesta's remaining power is even the power of the mother. I think it's still the power of the cauldron. Yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you. But then it is really interesting to think about the idea of the mother channeling through Nesta basically when she's wearing the mask, Like, why is that possible?

40:07 Why is the mask needed for that? Is the mask needed for that? Or is that just when the mother chooses? Why does Cassie and see the mother? Like, I think that opens up like a fucking host of questions. I got thoughts, OK, I don't know if they're. Right. Yeah, through there. No, I think that's really interesting.

40:26 Nesta's powers death, but she brings them back to life, close to close to back to life, right? So it's like, does not it's the same question where what is the source of that power? Does she have both? Is the cauldron, the death and the mother is life. I think the mother might be helping her. With that heart, yeah, yeah.

40:45 That's what I think. Yeah, interesting, Interesting. And we're going to do a Cauldron episode too, guys, so don't worry, we will examine this scene again in great depth. Or maybe you don't want us to. Too bad. Yeah, the cauldron. The cauldron is also a good one guys. I have here the cauldron has a will of its own. Is that will independent of the mothers or is it the mothers? OK so this is actually going to build my slee on what you just said.

41:11 So I want to bring back that quote again that I read before. In the beginning and the end there was darkness and nothing more. So in the 1/4 Silver Flames prologue, when Nesta is fighting with the cauldron, the quote we get is Nesta laughed at the fear that crept into the King's eyes just before. Or the water devoured her whole in the beginning and the end that there was darkness and nothing more, right? And then when Nesta.

41:34 So that's what she hears when she's in the Cauldron, when she's scrying for the mask and talking to the Void. What we get is the mask. She whispered, casting her mind into eternity. Where is the mask of the Dread Trove? Still, she drifted into the liquid night. In the beginning and the end, there was darkness and nothing more.

41:53 So we now have the Cauldron, the Trove, and the Mother all repeating this phrase. In the beginning and the end, there was darkness and nothing more. Again, that darkness is a capital D It's pretty obvious all these things are linked, but just to like kind of like, you know, hammer that point home. I think why this matters is because of what the bone Carver tells us, that the cauldron at one point fell into the wrong hands.

42:17 So the quote we have for that is Akama chapter 18 says long ago, before the High Fey, before man, there was a cauldron. They say all the magic was contained inside it, that the world was born in it, but it fell into the wrong hands. If it fell into the wrong hands and the mother is so closely linked to it, what what happened to the mother?

42:39 What was going on with the mother when the cauldron fell into the wrong hands? Right? Like that's kind of an open question we have. We're also told the the bone Carver tells us in this same sentence, and this might get back to your dark mother question from earlier. Sorry. In the same chapter, when the cauldron was made, the Carver interrupted its dark Maker, used the last of the molten aura to forge a book, the Book of Breathing.

43:03 In it, written between the carved words are spells to negate the cauldrons power or control it wholly. We know that the Mother made Prithian with the cauldron. Did the mother also make the cauldron? Is the mother this dark Maker and is is she actually the Dark Mother? I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I'm just followed.

43:20 I'm just reading the sacred text here guys. But here's. Reading the text. Here's what I think is interesting and this gets back to our fun question. When Nesta wears all the items from the trove, what the mother says to her is do you see how it might be that soft female voice whispered, staring out through her eyes. What you might do that's in silver flames Chapter 77 at gun right?

43:47 That is not what I would have expected the mother to say in that moment right? That is like nefarious. That is like look at all this power that you could have and I'm with you now. Look what we could do, you know, like that to me is really, really duplicitous and surprising and not what I have would have expected to hear this mother of Prithian that we have gotten so far saying.

44:13 So to sum up basically what I'm getting at here, as we know, the mother and the cauldron are connected through the mythology and we have this poem now this this phrase that has been retreat been repeated by the mother, the cauldron and the trove. We know that the cauldron had a dark maker. We know that the cauldron was corrupted at some point. What we don't know is if the mother was corrupted too. We do not know how the that impacted the mother. I think that is an open question. I don't have an answer.

44:41 What happened to the mother when the cauldron fell into the wrong hands? Yeah. She must have either been suppressed or corrupted like those. Feel like they have to be the two options. Do you see how it might be? Do you see what me might do? Sounds very fucking corrupt to me. Yeah, to me sounds like Lampus.

44:58 Sounds like fucking Lampus, doesn't it? Yeah, unless it was a test for, because then I know she lets it go. Nest is like, I want to feel everything the mother says, even the hard things, and nest is like the hard things are what make us us. But I don't know, that line to me sticks out like a red fucking flag. And it's interesting that it happened folded between very different types of lines.

45:19 Yeah, I agree. Like before and after this, the mother is very gentle. Yeah, extremely. I don't know. All right, that concludes our Akatar Only section. Thank you to our Akatar only listeners. We love you guys. We hope this was a good one for you. As always you can find us on social media. You guys heard our spiel at the beginning about subscribing to us following us. If you like our stuff we would really appreciate it. We are on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube drag us in the details pod.

45:51 We are on Discord at Drag us in the Details Pod server have a website directly. I don't remember Dragons in thedetails.com. The website is Dragons in thedetails.com. Dragons in thedetails.com. You can e-mail us Dragons in the details pod@gmail.com. We're anywhere. We're everywhere you want to be and we love hearing from you guys.

46:10 I think you know this by now. We love interacting with you. We love hearing your series. We spend a lot of time talking to you guys and it's like the best fucking thing ever. So reach out, we'd love to hear from you and love you. Bye. Love you bye if you haven't read the Mass verse. If you haven't read the Mass verse, so this is your spoiler warning.

46:29 Spoilers. We are going into the Mass verse. If you haven't read every single fucking page of the Mass verse, especially for this episode, honest to God expect to be spoiled from here on out because we are about to go off the deep end. All right now Ronnie. Mass. First Cosms. Cosms, I have an omission from a prior episode and I have, I mean like a fucking lot of omissions from that part. I don't know how many want to do here. First omission from prior episode. I don't know whether we mention this. I don't think we did, so I'm going to call it out here. We talked about the constellations carved in the Harp chamber and then Elena's tomb and spent a good while thinking about who carved the

47:17 constellations in Elena's tomb. Why what they were? Were they in Steri Star maps? What that situation was we left out. I think the fact that Brandon carved Elena's tomb with his bare hands. Fucking Brandon. So in Empire of Storms chapter 68. But there would be clues for her to finish what they'd started. Brandon built Elena's tomb with his own hands, carved the messages in there for Alan to the riddles and the clues the best he could offer to explain the truth from the world, from powers who would use them to rule, to destroy. Then he made more.

47:52 The medal for the door knocker, gifted by Rhian and Kraken, who brushed a hand over the King's cheek before she left the tomb. Separate. Separate. Separate. However, yeah. Is Brandon? Did Brandon carve the constellations? Is Brandon out here world walking to Midgard? Of the same questions. I totally forgot that Brandon carved it.

48:15 So yeah, no, that's a totally fair call. Like. Lydia exists so. Lydia exists. I still right? I think there's still an unanswered question. Why are the constellations in that too? Why are the trees on the ceiling? Why is the world reversed? Was that already there? Did he carve it? I think all the questions remain. But Brandon, if you guys are on our discord. Yeah, I'm not even really.

48:41 There isn't. Any this anymore? Smear campaign happening on our discord right now. There is an absolute Brandon defamation campaign. However, the gist of it is Brandon we feel is a very important character who has not gotten a lot of screen time. Similar to Vesperus. We haven't really dove into him yet. He hasn't been as relevant, but I think I think he is a major fucking player.

49:07 Our discord definitely thinks he's a major fucking player. Not our Throne of Glass season, but but open questions about Brandon. In theory, not definite. The Asteri left before this phase civilization cracked up. We'll talk about it later, but I think that opens a lot of questions about Brandon and Lydia and how she's a descendant of his. We'll talk about it later.

49:28 I mean, there's always the option that Brandon is a descendant of Lydia. Like Lydia has a son named Brandon as well. Yeah, that's true that often. But she named that Brandon after it. Yeah. So she could have another brand. There could be another brand. There's two brands. Yeah, yeah. Times Rift.

49:46 Times rift. Times rift. Times rift. We figured it out, guys. We figured it out. So my omission. OK, the Bone Carver Getting back to our ACOTAR only omission, the Bone Carver chooses to appear as an Illyrian warrior in the battle against Hybrid, which I thought nothing of at the time. But when you think about it in terms of the context of House of Flame and Shadow, where we discover that the Esteri and perhaps even Vespers herself literally made the Illyrian warriors. And when you think about the fact that he that he appeared as Nicks with Vesperus's eyes, we're getting more and more bone Carver Vesperus connections and that he knew exactly who she was and what she was up to is basically my thinking. And that everything that Bone

50:35 Carver does should be considered is some kind of a stary clue. But that's how I like that's how I like to read this book. I might not be right, But isn't that interesting then that he appeared as jury and to Reese, right. Like what's jury and connection to all this? I do not know. Yeah, what is jury and significance, really? Is do not know.

50:54 I do not know. I do not know, but all right. And then I just had, I don't necessarily agree with this theory, but we had a really awesome theory from one of our listeners that I wanted to read out. I thought the logic and reasoning was really good, so going to call this out. This is from Sphinxy on Instagram. It's two posts.

51:10 So first one, hi. In the prison episode at around an hour 26, you talked about a statue portrayal of Urd in Crescent City. Three of a figure holding a black metal bowl between her up raise hands. Symbol symbols were carved all over the bowl, continuing down her fingers, her arms, her body. No other temples ever depicted the goddess. No one ever dared.

51:31 Most people claim that fate was impossible to portray in anyone form. You're going to hear that quote a couple times, guys. I think so. Strap in. I mean, call me crazy, but is this not Farrah? Even the name Fate could be similar to the name Farrah in in the other language. These words seem to be seem to share.

51:47 And Amarantha was curious and commented about Farrah's name in Acatar, which is odd if there isn't a reason. Additionally, she can shift into any form, hence the comment about her being impossible to portray. She's also of course held the cauldron in her hands before. That's part one of two two of two crack theory.

52:05 She's erred. Could that mean she's the mother and Qatar? Nesta thinks the woman's voice in her head is familiar and we think that that could be the mother. What if she and Reese go to another world, therefore breaking the pact? He somehow dies crying face and she transitions into the goddess. She's stricken with grief so barely stays in her face slash woman form like Tamlin and instead regularly shifts. Not sure how Nyx fits into this.

52:30 So that was the theory. I think it's really interesting. I don't necessarily have anything to go off of there, but I thought I'm like, that is true. We still don't know the significance of Pharaoh's name. It would be really cool if Pharaoh somehow turns it to the mother here. We're going to get into a lot more with the word urd connection in this section, but I just thought that was a great theory.

52:48 So I want to shout you out, Sphinxy. Thank you very much. That was awesome. Thank you, Stinksy. I love the idea of Farah both in Irelia and Midgard. If you think about someone like Farah or even or even Reese or you know any really any of Reese, Farah, Nesta, I guess those are the three that I would call out in any of these other worlds.

53:12 They would be viewed as like near God like in power or nearest area like in power like there's that mention right in I mean of the raw magic girl who like comes through and can summon anything and people like spoke of her and missed and missed word. And missed word and missed word, yes, I I mean Bryce literally says Reese has as much power as Reese felt as powerful as in a story, right?

53:36 Well, that's because he. That's because he's in a story. But yeah, I mean, no, you're totally right. And like with that. OK, Abby, what is the connection between the mother word and ERD? All right, they're all the same thing. I think they're all the same thing. Ronnie doesn't think they're all the same thing. Let's get into it.

53:57 I do have other options, however, I think they are the same thing. The quotes we have here. You've heard all these quotes, but just to read them back-to-back. It began with a cauldron. A mighty black cauldron held by glowing, slender female hands in a starry, endless night. Those hands tipped it over, golden sparkling liquid pouring out over the lip.

54:16 No, not sparkling, but effervescent, with small symbols, perhaps of some ancient fairy language. Whatever was written there, whatever it was, the contents of the Cauldron were dumped into the void below, pooling on the earth to form our world. That's ACOTAR. Chapter 13. We get Bryce's description of Urd in the tunnels underneath Prythian.

54:38 This is in Ho Fast Chapter 16. House of Flame and Shadow Chapter 16 So what she says is she's talking to Azrael and Nesta. We don't have anything like the Cauldron on Midgard. Solace is our sun God, Shithona his mate and the earth goddess Luna is his sister, the moon Ohana, Shithona's jealous sister in the seas.

54:57 And Urd guides all. She's the Weaver of fate, of Destiny. Bryce added after a moment. I think she's the reason I'm here, Urd. Nesta murmured. The face says the Cauldron holds our fates. Maybe it became this urge. So now we have this idea that the Aldrin is Erd. We then get a depiction of Erd in her temple in the Bone quarter in House of Flame and shadow.

55:21 So this is I think the quote I just read but just so it's fresh in everyone's mind again. The Under King lounged on a throne beneath the behemoth statue of a figure holding a black metal bowl between her upraised hands. Think cauldron symbols were call symbols were carved all over the bowl. Continuing down her fingers, her arms, her body, Ethan could only assume it was meant to represent Erd. No other temples ever depicted the goddess. No one even dared.

55:49 Most people claim that fate was impossible to portray in any one form, but it seemed that the dead, unlike the living, had a vision of her. And those symbols running from the bowl onto her skin, They were like tattoos. So that's House of Flamin Shadow chapter 81 get more. And she, the under king went on gesturing to that unusual depiction of ERD. Towering above him was not a goddess, but a force that governed worlds, a cauldron of life bringing brimming with the language of creation.

56:19 ERD they call her here a bastardized version of her true name Word. We called her in the old world. So I get at this point that it seems like ERD and Word is the cauldron and not the mother. However we have a figure on Nestas mantle in the House of wind and I know I originally said I didn't think this was the mother but I after reading this earth quote more I do think this is the mother.

56:43 So the quote for that is? Her gaze shifted to the carved wooden figure, to the carved wooden rose she placed upon the mantle, half hidden in the shadows besides a figurine of a supple bodied female, her upraised arms clasping a full moon between them. Some sort of primal goddess, perhaps even the Mother herself. So it's the same pose, right?

57:05 We have this figure on Nesta's mantle. She does not know where it came from, but she is being washed by the Mother, grasping a moon. And then we have Urd in the same pose, grasping A cauldron. Do I think it's important that these things are different? I definitely do. We'll get into that in a bit, in a minute.

57:22 But I definitely think we're supposed to draw the connection between the mother and Urd and Word in this in this scenario. And I think we are almost certainly getting confirmation here that those symbols carved into Urd slash word are word marks, right? Like that. Definitely. That just makes sense.

57:39 That just makes sense. Yeah. I want to remind everyone, and we'll get into this later, what Ethan said says these these symbols look like tattoos. The symbols on Earth look like tattoos. Bryce has tattoos in unknown symbols that we're pretty sure are word marks. I think the fact that Ethan calls these symbols tattoos and Bryce has a tattoo of symbols is meant to tell us that these are the same language and that Rigilus's line is I can teach you things you've never even dreamed of. Rigilus, promise.

58:08 The language inked on your back. It is our language from our home world. I can teach you how to wield it. World might be open to you, Bryce Quinlan. Name the world and it shall be yours, right? That's House of Flame and Shadow Chapter 96. And we get the effervescent symbols flowing from the cauldron. They're fucking word marks all over, all over this. And now we're being told that that is the language of creation and the language of the Gasteri homeworld, which is fucking wild.

58:36 I don't really know what to do with that. Fucking wild. All right, and then we have a description of Word. So the quote for that is? Some books claim the Word is the force that holds together and governs Aurelia. Not just Aurelia, countless other worlds too. I've heard of it before. He said, picking up his book, but his eyes remain fixed on her face. I always thought the word, the word was an old term for fate or destiny.

58:59 So did I, but the Word isn't religion, at least not in the northern parts of the continent, and it's not included in the worship of the goddess, Capital G Goddess or the gods. We also have a mother goddess, that's that Capital G Goddess in Throne of Glass as well. And there are theories that she's a being from another world who wandered through a word gate and found Aurelia in need of life.

59:22 Just to keep that in mind, I'm about to go into the Throne of Glass Gods. Do you want to count? Do you want to get in here at all before I talk about? I need, I need the throne of Glass gods to talk about most of what I want to talk about. I think I have no disagreements at all. That word and herd are like, that's hard to argue with, right?

59:40 Like. We're the same. They're the same. That's the same. I think what's I'll just wait, wait. I mean, I need to throw out glass gods so. OK, I guess I I guess I started off too strong. Now that I've actually read my my quotes, I'm not actually 100% sure that the mother. Is the same thing so unclear?

59:58 Who like where the mother falls? I think word and urd are super clear. I think the mother is super unclear. I have clear thoughts. On the different ways that I go, but I think the mother is pretty unclear personally. OK, so we have we have word, we have Urd. We have a mother goddess in Throne of Glass, we have a mother goddess in Acotar, we have no mother goddess. We have no mother goddess in Crescent City. There is no mother goddess, right? But there is Urd.

1:00:24 Urd. Almost feels like it's conflated word and mother, right? And that makes sense, right? Because Midgard Faye are Prythean Faye and Aurelian Faye, we think, yeah. So it's almost like we came with a word religion and then we came with a mother religion and now Erd is just this word mother conflated female situation because word in Irelia is not female, right?

1:00:48 I don't think word is just fate. Word is word is a force. And then in Midgard, Erd has become a woman and in. Midgard, the fae has started worshipping Luna instead. Yeah, right. OK all right, so let's get into the throne of Glass God. So we have a couple of pomps that seem like they could be the mother other than word and the goddess, right? The witches have a deity that they call the mother. They call it the mother.

1:01:15 They also call it the three faced Goddess and the three faced mother. We mentioned that the Acotar mother has three faces, right? What we know about this, I'll just going to call her the three faced mother just to keep it a little clearer. What we know about the three faced mother is that she is associated with the moon, fate and weaving, right? So we have in Kingdom of Ash chapter A and 18 because it's a fucking tome.

1:01:38 A full moon tomorrow, the mother's womb, a good moon to be burned, to be returned to the three faced goddess and reborn within that womb. You will recall that the figure on Nesta's mantle looked like Erd but was holding a full moon. And Azrael when he and Bryce are talking in the tunnels underneath, underneath Prythian, Bryce asked what happens to you when you die? Azrael says we are returned to the mother. Here the witches are talking about being returned to the mother's womb.

1:02:07 And then we get again. Manon felt that ebb and flow in the world, that invisible current that some called fate and some called the loom of the three faced goddess Titus word his final threat. That's an air of fire. Chapter 23 So now we have the three faced mother weaving this loom of fate, even though we have word in this in this series, right? And we find out that the three faced mother is probably one of the gods that goes through the gate, right? Like she's not actually a God.

1:02:34 She's she's a higher, a higher power being maybe in a steri, maybe not a Steri, but she is associated with fate and the moon. She's also associated with darkness with a capital D, right? So that's why I kept bringing up that the darkness in the poem in the beginning and the end there was darkness and nothing more is with a capital D. We get that in one other place and that is with the mother. The quotes for that are Manon couldn't look at them, couldn't do anything but close her eyes and pray to the darkness with a capital B capital D to the three faced mother as she held her hands over the bleeding gashes.

1:03:09 And then we also have the eye of the goddess, which was crafted by Rhiannon Cochran who put her hand on Brandon's face as she left Elena's tomb. A large circle and two overlapping circles, one atop the other within its circumference. We call this the That is the three faced goddess, Manon said, her voice low.

1:03:27 We call this. She drew a rough line in the center most circle in the eye shaped space where they overlapped the eye of the goddess. Not Elena. She circled the exterior again Crone. She said of the outermost circumference. She circled the interior top circle Mother. She circled the bottom maiden.

1:03:43 She stabbed the eye inside and the heart of darkness again. Capital D darkness within her right. So now we have a heart of darkness within this mother. We have that poem that has been read three times with that capital D darkness. Are they all related? Maybe. But again, this goddess might be one of the goddesses that actually leaves with the other throne of glass gods, which I don't actually think disqualifies her from being the mother.

1:04:09 I just want to, I just want to throw that out here that she may she may or may not be an actual deity the way that she seems to be in Prithean. What? You're saying you don't think that going through the RIP that Alan opened disqualifies her from being mother, correct? I think it qualifies her I. Think it might.

1:04:29 Qualify qualifies her yes. I have one more really crazy connection here that I'm actually more convinced of. I'm kind of convinced of, but is there anything else you want to talk about? For who? For Throne of Glass Gods. Yeah, well, I'm going to talk about another throne of Glass God, but I don't know.

1:04:47 I just do you want to respond to anything? I've been talking for a while. You might be hitting the one that I want to hit. Is it about Silba? OK, all right, so here it is, guys. The Mother's voice is constantly described as soft and gentle. You referenced this before. We have another deity in the mass verse with that description, and it is Silba.

1:05:07 And when you go through beat by beat, the way that Silba guides Irene and the way that the Mother guides Nesta, it is almost word for word the same. It's actually fucking crazy. It's actually fucking crazy. All right, So when Silba is guiding Irene in the library at the tour, the valve have come to kill Irene, and Irene is running away from the valve, right?

1:05:30 Running away from danger. The quote we get is hurry. A small vent, a small, gentle voice murmured in her ear, in her head. She had never heard that voice before, but she sometimes felt its warmth coursing through her as her magic flowed out. It was as familiar to her as her own voice, her own heartbeat. Hurry, girl, when the mother is talking to NASA in the bog of Orid, we get run.

1:05:52 A small voice voice whispered run and run and do not look back. The voice was female, gentle, wise and serene. Run. So it's the same thing, right? It is a small, gentle voice. She's saying hurry to Irene. She's saying run to Nessa. But it's like the same thing too, where it's even. We start and end the paragraph with hurry, hurry, girl, run, run right when? Irene is saving Kale.

1:06:16 At the end of Tower of Dawn, we get a woman's voice that was both familiar and foreign, A voice that was both Hafizas and another, someone who is not human, never had been speaking through Hafiza herself, their voices blending into the blackness. The damage is too great. There must be a cost if it is to be required.

1:06:37 So basically, in this moment, Silba is testing Irene, right? She's saying I can fix this, but you need to pay a price. You we need to give something up right? So then we get the voice that was both Hafiza and other said again. There must be a cost. I will pay it. Irene said into the pain and dark and light. A daughter of Senhara will pay the debt of a son of Otterlin. Yes.

1:07:02 And then she feels a warm gentle hand placed on her face. Right, so the quote is. She could have sworn A gentle, warm hand brushed her face. Silva. It's soba, all right, the other said. You offer this of your own free will. Yes, with my entire heart. It had been this way from the start, anyway, the other said. I chose well.

1:07:24 You shall pay the debt, Irene Towers, and I hope you shall see it for what it truly is. Irene tried to speak, but light flared, soft and soothing. It blinded her within and without, left her cringing over Kale's head. Her fingers grappled into his shirt, feeling his heartbeat thundered into her palm, the scrape of his breath against her ear. Light.

1:07:48 Light is flaring out from Irene to save Kaol from death's fucking doorstep. Guys. OK, We read the quotes. You know the quotes. We're going to read them again, all right? So Nesta, when she is saving Farrah, we get in the beginning and in the end there was darkness and nothing more. A soft familiar voice whispered. All right, with Irene we get a voice that was both familiar and foreign as they had been whispered to her long ago as it had warmed her and or it's darkness. A lovely kind female voice, sage and warm, which had been waiting for her all this time.

1:08:23 She starts testing Nesta the same way that Silva was testing Irene. Right, So she says. Do you see how it might be, what you might do? I feel nothing. Nesta said silently. Is that not what you wanted to feel? Nothing. I want to feel everything. I want to embrace it with my whole heart, even the things that hurt and hunt you. Only curiosity leads the question. We need those things in order to appreciate the good. Some days might be more difficult than others, but I want to experience all of it, live all of live through all of it with them.

1:08:54 That why soft voice whispered. So live Nesta Archron. Nesta feels a warm hand placed on her cheek. NASA whispered to the the Cauldron, her promise rising above the den. I give it all back. And a soft, invisible hand brushed her cheek and answer. And then light flows into Farah the same way it flowed into KOL.

1:09:14 So the quote for that is? I know we've already read it, but just for memory. Iridescent light began flowing from Nesta's body into Farah. Nesta kept holding her sister. The light glimmered down Farah's arms, her legs. It suffused her. Ash and face began to fill the room. The iridescence filled her, filled Farah, the bundle in Moore's arms.

1:09:34 It's the same scene, it's beat for beat, the same scene with Irene and Silva and with NASA and the mother. Like this is like, I think it's Silva. I think the mother. I just definitely think the mother is Silva at this point. Started this answer when you think they're all the same. I know, but. I agree. I think it's Silva.

1:09:51 I know, I don't know why I wrote that I and I hadn't reviewed my notes in so long I forgot where I was going, but. Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean my conclusion is we have elements. So we have, we have the word, we have the cauldron, we have urge, we have elements of the moon, we have the three faced goddess. We haven't talked about Deanna at all, but we have Deanna as well.

1:10:13 But then when we really get down to it, when we really look at the character beats, when we really look at the voice, it seems to be Silva. And it seems to be that Irene and Nesta are both hearing the same goddess and maybe have the same power, which I think we'll get to later as well. But like it seems to be Silva in.

1:10:33 Conclusion I agree. I think the mother is kind of throne of glass God slop, but I think I have like a few different options. Silva, I definitely think it's the strongest option. I had everything you had. I had a couple other things specifically as it relates to Silva, right. You, you talked about how in Throne of Glass, some theories suggest the mother goddess is just a spirit from one of these other worlds and that she strayed through something called a word gate and found a really a need of form in life. Silva is not necessarily a mother goddess, but she is a world maker like mother of life.

1:11:12 So silver Silva's power within Irene, which can destroy about the power of creation, destruction. That's what lay within her life giver world maker. So Silva's, Silva's power, we have this mother goddess that's said to have recognized a need for life. So this mother goddess is creating life and then Silva is said to be life giver, world maker.

1:11:35 It's kind of hard to like recognize a hierarchy as to why one of these gods would necessarily be above all the others. But in the Tower of Dawn Chapter 2 of the 36 gods this empire had welcomed into the fold over the centuries from religions near and far in the City of Gods, Silba reigned unchallenged. So she is this reigning, life giving, very prominent goddess. You covered all of the direct parallels in Nesta's scene and all of Irene's healing scenes with Kale and the the hand touching the cheek.

1:12:12 I don't think the mother is the word. I do think the mother is Silva, which makes sense. Going back to our conversation about Nesta giving power back, she gave her power back to the cauldron, not the mother. So her power came from the cauldron. We think she has Deanna's power. I know that we get a bunch of references. This is why I think it's kind of slop references in ACOTAR the series to other gods that we recognize and Throne of Glass as the Mother, right?

1:12:42 So we get Deanna, the statue on Nesta's mantle that you already talked about with the moon that I feel like we can pretty safely say is Deanna. And we get like perhaps even the mother herself. And then we also get from Ameren the three faces. Those are like different, different goddesses, obviously, than Silva.

1:13:02 The reason I think, and this is a little bit far fetched, but the reason I think that Silva can still work as the mother is if Silva is this life giver world maker, and we picture her as the mother with the cauldron. And the cauldron has this all of the like this power of the other gods, right? If Nesta's ripping from it, stealing from it, and she ends up with Deanna's power, what if whatever Alan opened, if you look at the list of gods that went in there, what if that's where they are? They're in the Cauldron.

1:13:34 Well, the Cauldron, I think is a word gate. Like, how is their power in there? There's also this concept of forgotten gods, right? It would be weird. It is weird that there's 36 gods in Irelia and there's only one in Prythian. Yeah, like there's other gods powers clearly, because there's other magic on Prythian. Yeah.

1:13:56 So I guess what I'm saying is it's not neat and tied in a bow. The case for Silva. Like we definitely get references to Deanna being the mother in that statue. Also just Deanna imagery is all over Prythian. Like everything is a fucking moon. Yeah, everything. Yeah. Nesta clearly has Deanna's power, but Nesta is not said to have the power of the Mother. The Mother is just watching over Nesta, and Nesta is giving her power back to the Cauldron, and the Mother is stopping it. But the Mother's power flows through her because she's chosen, basically.

1:14:28 Right. Like the way Irene is like it's And it absolutely does. That power is nothing like we've ever seen Nesta wield before. Like that's, Yeah, completely new. It's totally different. It's totally different. And hearing like she's not, we've done that. But it is what she liked, what she wanted to do. It is like Bryce's first light though, right When she heals everyone.

1:14:50 Yeah, right. So Irene is starred 1, so we're going to get to that. So then Silva's in a steri. I don't know. I don't know, but I think that Silva's in a steri. All right, we'll get into it later. That's not this is not our Crescent City Throne of Glass season, but. Because I don't know that an asteri could be like a guiding force in a world their. Language is the language of creation. But they're like wannabe stars.

1:15:14 I know, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't have the answer. I think we'll get into it in the next question. I don't know. Yeah, I'm not convinced, but I am pretty convinced that the mother is Silva. I'm pretty convinced that the mother is Silva. I totally agree. How that fits into everything else, I'm not sure.

1:15:32 Other things though, about Silva, Sorry, I'm not with the case for Silva. Silva's womb healing subterranean chamber in the Torre Chesme. We talked about this already, but like Library of the Night Court that is now kind of sort of nestas. Yeah, yeah, very, very comparable. Obviously we talked about the best cats in Silva's in the Torrejosme. OK, so in conclusion, if I can put a nice bow on it, there is a mother in Orillia we think might be Silva. There is a mother in ACOTAR we also think might be Silva. There is a cauldron in Acotar that we think might be word and we think in Midgard that these two things have been combined into one thing and that has become heard. That heard is both the Mother

1:16:16 and the Cauldron, but that they are not. They are not actually one thing in any. Other world. I'm still thinking about the Cauldron and Word, but I we agree with everything else that you said, right? That's fine. This is not our Cauldron episode. Yeah, I mean, it generally like it trends correctly because the cauldron, those symbols that the cauldron is pouring out are word marks. They're word marks.

1:16:37 They are word marks. All right, Ronnie, what is the fake creation myth and why do we have conflicting stories? OK, so there are a few different versions of fake creation myths that we hear within ACOTAR and then outside of ACOTAR. We've already talked about one of them. We'll talk about a couple more. Interestingly, I didn't really find a whole lot in Aurelia. Anyways, fake creation myths, version number one of the mural that we already talked about in Tamlin Study. I'll just do a quick refresher because we actually didn't read anywhere close to the whole thing. Chapter 13.

1:17:07 At first, I could do nothing but stare at its size, at the ambition of it, the fact that this masterpiece was tucked back here for no one to ever see, as if it were nothing. Absolutely nothing to create something like this. It told a story, the story of of Pythian. It began with a cauldron. A mighty black cauldron held by glowing, slender female hands in a starry, endless night.

1:17:27 Those hands tipped it over, golden sparkling liquid pouring out over the lip. Kind of sounds like the pool of Starlight a little bit. No, not sparkling, but effervescent with small symbols, perhaps some ancient fairy language. Whatever was written there, whatever it was, the contents of the cauldron were dumped into the void below, pooling on the earth to form our world.

1:17:46 The maps banned the entirety of our world, not just the land on which we stood, but also the seas and the larger continents beyond. Each territory was marked and colored, some with intricate, ornate depictions of the beings would once ruled over lands that now belong to humans. All of it, I remembered with a shudder.

1:18:02 All of the world had once been theirs, at least as far as they believed, crafted for them by the bearer of the Cauldron. There was no mention of humans, no sign of us here. I suppose we've been as low as pigs to them. It was hard to look at the next panel. It was so simple, it's so detailed that for a moment I stood there on that battlefield, feeling the texture of the bloody mud beneath me, shoulder to shoulder, with thousands of other human soldiers lined up, facing the fairy hordes who charged at us. A moment of pause before the slaughter. The humans errors and swords seem so pointless against the high Fey and they're glimmering armor, or the fairies bristling with claws and fangs.

1:18:37 I knew, knew, without another panel to explicitly show me the humans hadn't survived that particular battle. So this mural, basically. Like, is it linear start to finish? All that happened is mother takes cauldron pours out. Prythian fairies are here. Then at some point humans are here. Battle humans, dead fairies rule.

1:18:57 That's the mural creation story that we get in actor chapter 13. Then we get a couple interesting twists throughout Agatar on other plot lines of this creation story that are not shown in this Spring Court mural. So version #2 Reese's version. This is a short quote, but in a court of silver flames, he says the they were not the first masters of this world. Interesting based on what we just read. According to our oldest legends, most now forgotten, we were created by beings who were near gods and monsters, the Daglin. They ruled for millennia and enslaved us and the humans. They were petty and cruel and drank the magic of the land like wine.

1:19:36 So in this version of the story, Reese believes that the Daglin were here first. They created the fae, and probably, apparently everybody else, I don't know, enslaved the fae and the humans, and they were kind of the ruling body until eventually they were overthrown by the fae, and the fae rule the humans. And then we eventually came to our current state. Version #3 we're still in Akatar, Cassian's version. He mentions old gods.

1:20:02 So this is an Akor Cassian scan the heavy Gray sky as if hunting for spying eyes. Then the Moss and grass. And rocks beneath our boots for listening years below. There was a life here, he said, answering my question at last. Before the High Lords took Prythian. Old Gods, we call them. They ruled the forest and the rivers and the mountains. Some were those things.

1:20:23 That's very interesting. Then the magic shifted to the High Fey, who brought the Cauldron and Mother along with them. And though the Old Gods were still worshipped by a select few, most people forgot them. So Cassian is saying, and this is even more warped, right, Is there were old gods, there were these like totally separate beings that ruled and were this land.

1:20:46 And then the magic just shifts to the high Fey who bring the cauldron, the mother. So the cauldron and the mother are tied to the high Fey. And then like the old gods kind of just fade into the background. What caused that magic to shift Cassie? And I mean, Cassie is not the brightest gold in the basket like and. What do you mean they brought the Cauldron and the Mother with them?

1:21:08 Where did they come? From I mean, that sounds like he's describing like a faith, like they brought Christianity with them or something like that. But like obviously Cassie and this is akward. You know that the cauldron is fucking real. So where did it come from? Right. So weird. OK. Yeah, so Cassian is Cassian, and then we have what I've written as version #4 which is Crescent City.

1:21:33 And there's obviously layers to creation in Crescent City since Midgard kind of just was and beings came into it. So there's no real, like, accepted creation story, at least that I found in Midgard. I don't know whether you agree. Like, I think the land was there and humans were there, and then people came into it. Some rifts opened.

1:21:52 They also ensued, But the closest that we really get one true creation story in Crescent City that I like best is from The Princess of Hell about Chaos in the Void. I know that's not really Midgard, but it's interesting to think that Hell might be the first thing that existed. And I say that because, well, I'll just read the quote first.

1:22:14 Napoleon in House of Sky and Breath, chapter 21. The darkness he's called paused. You are impertinent as well. Do you not know where I come from? My father was the Void, the being that existed before all capitalized Chaos was his bride and my damn. It is to them that we shall all one day return.

1:22:33 And their mighty powers that run in my blood. He and the other Princess of Hell and Hell itself are said to be born of chaos in the void. It's very Big Bang vibes. Was Hell here first? I don't know. I'm not sure. Well, and this idea too returning. Returning to chaos when this is all over. So we're returning to the mother when this is all. Over yes, and Prythian too was poured from in that mural, the cauldron into the void.

1:22:59 So is everything born of the void? Anyways, back to Crescent City because we learn more about the creation of Prythian obviously in Crescent City. Just to build on and kind of clarify some of the like madness that we hear from different parties in Agatar. Celine confirmed that the Cauldron was a Faye item of their world, but that the Daglin corrupted it.

1:23:22 So we've, we've talked about this one million times on this podcast, but House, Flame and Shadow, Chapter 19, the Cauldron was of our world, our heritage. But upon arriving here, the Daglin captured it and used their powers to warp it, to turn it from what it had been into something deadlier, no longer just a tool of creation, but from, but of destruction.

1:23:44 That is Irene's fucking power. But we'll come back to that. Literally Silva's power. Yeah. And the horrors that produced those two, my parents would turn to their advantage. Vesperus, our your favorite bad bitch. Our favorite bad bitch. I guess she's our favorite, Vesperus says. They imbued their power into the cauldron and bound the cauldron to the soul of this world. So literally bound it so that Prythian and the Cauldron are codependent and they cannot exist without the other. So to destroy the cauldron is to destroy this world and vice versa.

1:24:21 And that's in the House of Flame and Shadow. Chapter 25. Once we left our home world, our powers began to dim. Too late we realized that we had been dependent on our lands inherent magic. The magic in other worlds was not potent enough yet we could not find the way back home. Those of us who ventured here found ways to amplify that power thanks to the gifts of the land.

1:24:41 We pulled our power and imbued those gifts into the cauldron so that it would work our will. We made the trove from it and then bound the very essence of the cauldron to the soul of this world, Solace. So destroy the cauldron and you destroy this world. One cannot exist without the other. So I don't think we get a super clear exact definition of the fake creation story, but I think what we are led to believe based on what we learned in Crescent City is obviously one. We don't have a straight story because in a guitar Celine like de Modi the shit out of Britian to forget everything that happened with the Asteria.

1:25:22 And the Asteria also are known to kind of rewrite history just like they do on Midgard. And so Reese and Cassian and everyone are a little confused. And that's fine. But I think I think what we're led to believe by what we're told in Crescent City is that Breathing was created as a fae world. So the creation story of a mother and the Cauldron still largely works.

1:25:48 And the Esteri cane, like the Daglin cane, showed up, corrupted everything and added this layer of dependency that did not previously exist, which I think is really interesting between Corinthian and the cauldron, and also corrupted the cauldron itself, maybe corrupted the mother. So you think that the line that Reese's line that the Daglin may have created the FAE is just misinformation campaign basically? I don't know that Reese saying that is misinformation necessarily because it's partially true for him, right? The Daglin created the Illyrians, so. The Daglin created a lot of things. These Steri created a lot of things. Yeah.

1:26:30 So for him, there is some truth to it, right. Like especially up in the Night Court, although the Illyrian came, the Illyrians came from somewhere. The murmudence. Yeah. Or medians. I don't know. I don't know how to pronounce the word, so I'm not even sure. But for for Reese there may be some some reality to like his lineage was partially created by like a good amount of his territory was created by the asteri and so Prithean is 1 big melting pot of like a steri creatures, maybe hell creatures.

1:27:03 I think hell creatures and Faye, but I still think the world was originally Faye. I think you're probably right, but I want to play devil's advocate and play the card. What if the Osteria did create the thing? Because they created a fuck ton of other things. Well, if the Osteria are thrown of glass gods, then objectively I believe that to be true, but I don't think that was.

1:27:24 Gods. Well, let's go through it a bit. I think we've already beaten this to death. The Asteri language is the language of creation, right? That that is what we're told. And we know that they can create beings, right? I mentioned this before in Throne of Glass book one, we get mention of a mother.

1:27:45 Some theories suggest the Mother Goddess is just a spirit from one of these other worlds and that she strayed through something called the word Gate and found Aurilia in need of form and life. If that is true, she's a world Walker. I think she has to be in a Steri. Like the Valve learned how to be world walkers from a Steri. I don't think the valve.

1:28:08 I mean I guess the valve do make things but like basically she is a world Walker who is capable of creating life. That is the story we are given in Throne of Glass, right? It's a story we are given, but I don't know that it's necessarily fair to to assume that they can't be their own race of world walking things like we see them, whatever they are, go through the gods, the gods. That's fair.

1:28:35 That is fair. They can't do it on their own though, right? They need the word keys. I guess that they had shut that down. Yeah, they were sealed, right, OK. I think that is fair. But I do think when you combine the idea that the Esteri language is the language of creation, there's at least a possibility of this.

1:28:53 I'm not saying I like it. I'm not saying I agree with it. Yeah, I think there's a possibility of this. Yeah. Vasperis also tells us that some of the Esteri left early. Basically, she says is what she says is some of us saw the changes in the land beginning. Rivers run dry, clouds so thick the sun could not Pierce them and left. Our brightest minds found ways to bend the fabric of the worlds to travel between the wayfarers.

1:29:18 We called them world walkers. Right. So the world walkers seemed to have originally come from the Cesari home world. Some of them saw the changes to the world that were happening and left, right? If the mother was one of these early world walkers, did she come to Aurelia, see it in need of life, create the fae?

1:29:37 And then did she do the same impression? Maybe that feels like a level above the right? Like that feels like an Uber asteri thing. And the reason why this doesn't really make any sense is because we have this quote from Vesperus. The asteri feed off the first light of the world, right? So we have this quote from Vesperus basically explaining how annoying it is to have the fae around, right?

1:29:58 Bryce had just told her about the parasite, and then the quote is Vesperus. His eyes glowed with delay, like we'd hoped for something of this nature rather than the tithe which required the consent. She spat the word as it tasted foul of our subjects, but we never figured out how. The water supply, you say? A soft laugh.

1:30:13 Ridgeless was always clever, so I think it is possible. I think Sarah has leftover the possibility that the Esteri created the Fae, potentially on both Aurelia and Prythian, but it doesn't really make sense with their with what seemed to be their end goals. I just don't know why she would have this line in here. It's just like such such a crazy thing to say that the Daglin created the fact.

1:30:35 Like it's just such a crazy thing to do. Well, I, I kind of just thought it was a rewriting of history, I guess if this were the case, I'm not saying that I don't think it's possible, but if this were the case, I think it would be a pretty big plot hole because the Asteris whole thing is needing to conquer to live, right? But like, like, why would you create? Why are you bothering conquering if you can just create worlds? Yeah, and why would you bother creating fae that will also like that you will then need to take the magic from rather than taking the magic like directly from the land, you know what I mean?

1:31:08 Right. And why would you? Why would you have like imperfections and why? Yeah, I struggle with it. I agree. OK, so it's probably a nothing line. I think, I don't think it was a nothing line. I think it was like we. Were told. In present city that, well actually we were told by fucking originalist disguised as Avis. Which is really fucking annoying that Leasteri wrote their own history in Midgard, so maybe they wrote their own history in Prithean as well.

1:31:36 Yeah, which makes sense, because if they went and established themselves as gods, right? Reese calls them near. Gods, right? They want to believe that, you know, they were their almighty creators. Yeah, and suppressors. OK, you've convinced me. I mean, I never really liked this idea in the 1st place anyway. So we've had challenges with the throne of glass gods in the Asteria.

1:31:58 I think it's interesting though, because it it really would say the choice that Sarah J Mass makes here with where she goes with the Asteria, where whether they are like whether they are creation and they are like the end all be all, or whether they are actually frauds and fakes, kind of like they're being set up to be is like the make or break for whether this is a super nihilist series and universe or whether it's a super like hopeful and inspiring series.

1:32:30 Like if she goes the path of these fake holy stars, these not real holy stars are the Leyshawn Hackadash are like, are everything that you have been led to believe are like, yeah, holy and good and powerful and everything that you were supposed to believe in and be inspired by and they're just not, then that is a really like sobering nihilist, like yeah, yeah. And if she.

1:32:58 Is that not exactly what happened in throne of class? Like is that is exactly what happened at Throne of class. Like they believed in these gods, and the gods turned out to be not who they thought they were. Yeah, and then Alan just lived godless. Yeah, kill your gods, Yeah, but we never believed.

1:33:16 In the Asterian, the Asteria or the enemy? Yeah, that is true. That is true. Like we never were like. Oh, the Asteria are going to save us. Yeah, they've always been the oppressors. It's almost like they are. It's almost like they saw what the Throne of Glass Gods did and are trying to emulate that and are not good enough.

1:33:35 All right, Not our. Throne of Glass season. We will tackle that one on another day, OK. Abby, why is the mother so interested in Nesta? All right, so I want to get. Back to the idea that we talked about briefly before that. Nesta and Ivrene might actually have the same powers. Let's not talk about their sources for a moment. We're not really sure, but we have these scenes of Nesta killing Brie Allen and Irene killing Erawan, and once again, they are like very, very similarly written in the way that they play out.

1:34:07 So for Nesta killing Brielle and we have the bang of her magic was a beast with no name. Avalanches cascaded down the cliffs in seas of glittering white trees, bent and ruptured in the wake of the power that shattered from her distant seas, drew back from their shores that then raced in waves towards them again. Glasses shook and shattered and Loris books tumbled off the shelves and helions, 1000 libraries and the remnants of a rundown cottage in the human lands crumbled into a pile of rubble.

1:34:37 But all Nesta saw was Brie Allen. All she saw was the slack jawed Crone as Nesta leafed upon her, throwing her frail body to the rocky ground. All, all she knew was screaming as she cut, as she clutched Ray Allen's face, the crown glowing blindingly white. And so the crown glows white and roared her fury to the mountains, to the stars, to the dark places between them.

1:34:59 Gnarled hands turned young aligned face became beautiful and lovely white hair darkened to Raven black. But Nesta bellowed and bellowed, letting her magic rage, unleashing every ember, erasing the Queen beneath her from existence. The young hands turned to ash, the pretty face dissolved into nothing, the dark haired withered into dust until all that was left of the queen was the crown on the ground. That's Silver Flames chapter 74, and later Cassian says that what Nesta did was unmake Brie Allen, right? He says you unmade her when Irene is killing Aroan. Aaron screamed, but the sound was nothing compared to what came out of him.

1:35:38 As Irene reached him, hands burning like stars, and slammed them upon his chest, the world slowed and worked. Yet Irene was not afraid. Not afraid of the blinding white light that erupted from her, searing into Aaron, distantly, far away, Irene knew She was incandescent with light brighter than a noontime sun. Knew that the dark king beneath her was nothing more than a writhing pit of snakes biting at her, trying to poison her, poison her light.

1:36:05 The power of creation and destruction. That's what lay within her life giver, world maker. We have NASTA being able to make and unmake things, right? She makes her blades, she makes the bracelets that her and Emory and Gwen wear. And she unmakes Rialan, right? And we have Irene saying life giver, world maker, the power of creation and destruction. So we'll continue with the quote. The entire city, the plane became blindingly bright, so bright that a lead and Lisandra shielded their eyes. Even Dorian shut his, but Irene saw it. Then what lay it arrow on score.

1:36:42 So that's what we have for Irene as a reminder for Nesta, we have the bang of her magic was a beast with no name. Avalanches cascaded down the cliffs in seas of glittering white trees bent and ruptured, yadda yadda yadda. So we have their powers basically emanating out for them from them in great waves that is affecting everything around them. Then we have.

1:37:03 Before they'd even begun to turn his clothing into ash, Aron dissolved a sagging bit of flesh and brittle bones, and fernesto we have erasing the Queen beneath her from existence. The young hands turned to ash, the pretty face dissolved into nothing, the dark hair withered into dust until all that was left of the Queen was the crown on the ground.

1:37:21 So in both cases we have crazy powers and making things, basically dissolving them into dust. With Irene, it's creation and destruction. With Nesta it's making and unmaking. What Erawan says Irene is, is a Death Maiden. And what Nesta's power is referred to is as death with a capital D, right? So we get that Nesta's power is death. Irene is called the Death Maiden. The quote we have for this from Erawan is in my world your kind exists too.

1:37:51 Not healers to us, but executioner's death maidens capable of healing but also unhealing, unbinding the very fabric of life of worlds. Error on smirked. And we have Nesta unmaking Brie Allen, right? So basically my question here. And we've already talked about how we think the Mother is guiding both of them, right?

1:38:12 So we think Silva is the mother. The Mother has specifically chosen both of them. So I know their powers manifest as different things. And we have Nesta being told her power is death. We have Irene as a deaf maiden. We have the creation and destruction with both of them, right? What everyone says is that Irene would be capable of creating a word gate on her own, basically, right? Ken has to create her own word gates if she has this power. Does she have the same power that Irene has? Is she capable of creating her own word gates? Is the mother interested in that for some reason? If she truly is the world Walker that we think she is from the throne of Glass World, does she want to go somewhere else too? It's interesting to think that

1:38:50 she would have this potential because I I didn't. Think I'm open to revising this train of thought, but I didn't think that Nesta and Irene's powers really mirrored each other like they're on making mirrored each other. But it's almost like they both have the potential, which I think we know when we kind of agree that they're both they have both have starborn something in some capacity.

1:39:16 But like Silva is channeling through Irene and is chosen to and like the mother has only just chosen to channel through Nesta for the first time at the end of a quart of silver flames. And so will she continue to do that? And this is like the beginning of that possibility. Agree. But I think Nesta can.

1:39:36 I mean, Nesta unmakes things without the mother, right? It's not the mother's involvement there when she unmakes Brie Allen, right? Like that's just her power. So I think it's more that the mother, this could be nefarious, right? But the mother could be interested in Nesta because she said, oh, she can unmake things.

1:39:54 She can unbind the fabric of life. Yeah. She can open a word gate. Yeah, I can get out of here. I can get out of here. I've been fucking trapped here. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. I mean and. If the mother is is silba like we. Know that the Toronto. Glass gods were very much. Interested in getting the fuck out of where they were.

1:40:12 Yeah, exactly so. And I mean, right. And, and it's interesting because it could be kind of the same thing, right? Because in theory, Irene could have opened the gate, created the gate for Silba as well, right? Like they wouldn't have even needed the keys. Like maybe Irene was like a backup plan for Silva and now she's saying seeing that same potential with Nasta. So pulling this thread I do want to revisit like I think it is possible that when they went.

1:40:36 Through that RIP. It was too pricky. I think it's possible. Yeah. It's definitely possible. Yeah. Yeah. That you're talking about the like Greenfield that a own sees and then it switches to hell. It's interesting, right, because Celine makes no mention of a mother as far as I can remember. She talks about the cauldron.

1:40:58 She says the cauldron is of our world, but I don't think she says the mother was of our world too, right? Like there's no I don't think she answers the mother. I don't think she does because I think I searched for the mother. In how fast? Yeah, I don't know. What did you have for this one? What did you think I had Irene and Nesta I? Also did have I think.

1:41:21 It's unfair not to. Talk about Deanna as a possibility, not necessarily for the mother. I mean, yes, for the mother. I think it's fair. I don't agree with it, but like you cannot deny that Deanna's imagery is all the fuck over everywhere, everywhere. I do think that there is an interesting parallel of in women who seem to be looked after in some way and women who have a lot of Deanna powers and vibes. There are three women to talk about. 1 is obviously Nesta. We don't need to belabor that.

1:41:56 We've talked a lot about how Nesta, silver flames and deaf power resemble the the powers of the goddess Deanna who parallels Luna in Crescent City in Empire Storms Chapter 35. You know it, you love it. Here is the quote. The iron melted away, molten horse sizzling through the wooden deck and into the dark below.

1:42:14 The creature that stared out through Ellen's eyes furled her fingers into a fist. This is kind of giving the trove, Yeah. Imagery, right? Yeah, it is. Light leaked through her clenched fingers. Cold white light tendrils flickered silver flame. It's giving Nesta get away, Gabrielle. Warrant him Get away and don't look, etcetera, etcetera. Some primal, intrinsic part of him. News is Rowan, Deanna.

1:42:39 Rowan whispered. She flickered her eyes to him in question and confirmation, and Rowan realized what the power in her hand was. This is I skipped a little bit. Realized the flame she would unleash would be so cold and burned. Realized it was the cold of the stars, the cold of stolen light. Not wildfire, but moonfire.

1:42:58 So that resembles Nesta, like, right. Like that resembles Nesta. Nesta is clearly being protected and guided by the mother, Alan. She's being fucking protected by someone. She made her whole way through that eight book series and eventually did get her Kingdom back islands also given Deanna's gift at Ulmis Deanna, huntress and protector of the young Synkeep you this year.

1:43:24 I bestow upon you This golden arrow is a symbol of her power and good graces, and this is when still when she's Selena and she's like awkward. I don't know if I should be receiving this. There's also Lydia Cerebos, she is compared visually to Luna twice. The first, behind, held Rune's gaze as the game began.

1:43:42 She was the spitting image of Luna, with her upswept Shinyon, the regal angle of her neck and jaw as coldly serene as the moon. All she needed was a pack of hunting hounds at her side. That is one reference, and then another is this is again about Lydia. She set the golden lipstick tube on the counter and pivoted, beautiful and cold as a statue of Luna.

1:44:03 So why are Alan, Lydia, and Nesta all being linked? I don't know. Like I don't have a great explanation as to why Deanna would be a pull through for all three of these women, but also why Nesta specifically would have the power of Deanna and be watched over the mother. Other than maybe like maybe Deanna actually is just a nefarious figure. Maybe she is like a bee problem and the mother is like oh you took power and that's going to be a problem for you and I have to look after you and protect you. I mean why is the mother so interested in Nesta? I think if you take Nesta to be channeling Silva's power, the answer is easy.

1:44:44 If you like look at the lens of Nesta channeling Deanna's power. I think you have to think of it as Deanna is bad and the mother is is protecting Nesta from Deanna and she has been protecting Alan from Deanna and someone's going to need to protect Lydia from Luna as well. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think the question gets down to is it is the?

1:45:06 Mother interested in NASA because of the I mean, either way, no, no matter what, Nesta took a steri powers from the cauldron, right? She is made right? Bryce says. Bryce says she feels made. Made in Star born are the same thing. Star born we are 99% sure is having a Steri power. Nesta got a steri power from the cauldron that was corrupted by the Asteri right? Looks like.

1:45:30 Leave Deanna out of it. Leave the throne of glass gods out of it right? Is the mother interested in Nesta because of that or because of something else, because of something intrinsic to Nesta? Or is it about the trove and her being made and the Esteri power? I think is the question. And we don't know. We don't have the answer right now. Sorry, guys, Not a big week for answers. It's the mother episode.

1:45:56 I mean, the mother of all questions episode. Yeah, to be fair. I don't think we. Said Maeve's name once this whole episode, so something. Did I even have it? Let's see. I don't think there's anything to talk about with me if this might be the first week. I had her. I had her. I didn't bring it up.

1:46:12 I didn't bring it up. We don't need to. You want should we do the Maeve call out? We got to do 1 Maeve call out per episode. Go for it. Go me. So Silva symbol is an owl. Maeve has an owl that she keeps with her at. All times. Faye healer. We're not sure. It could very well just be a healer, right?

1:46:33 Yeah, that's the implication. Yeah, that's the implication. But it would be interesting, right, To think that Maeve has somehow trapped in slaves. The mother enslaved the mother. Well, that. It also made me think. Of Griffin antiquities, right? Because isn't there an owl outside? Of Griffin Antiquities, yeah, which Why Jessica? Why Jessica?

1:46:58 Why Jessica? Yeah. OK. Anything else we have. Beat this horse dead, I think, and I at least I feel good about Silva. I feel really good about Silva. I'm really glad that you found the Silva connection too because I was like, this is fucking. Crazy. There's no way that this is what it is. Silva was like comfortable bringing to the skull also I do think. Everybody's going to think.

1:47:24 I think everybody kind of thinks it's Deanna until you start thinking about what Deanna is capable of and what the mother did. Yeah, right, Right. It's Silva's power bringing Pharaoh and Nick's back from the. Brink, All right, Precog quarter, I now hate both of mine. I might come up with one on the fly.

1:47:43 All right, So the omission that became a precog, we never do. This. Just kidding, we always do this. OK, in 1/4 of Silver Flames chapter 77 passage that we have read 1,000,000 times, Death is described and Death is personified and Death is corporeal. That quote is. But Death hovered nearby. Nesta felt it, saw it. A shadow thicker and more permanent than any of as real's. Note that as real shadows were the ones that were chosen for the comp here, Death is capitalized with AD. Was Prince of Hell in that room Prince of Hell in that room with him?

1:48:19 I think so. I think so. I think, I think Death and that shadow is is the Prince of Hell. I don't know that it's necessarily one of our Princess of Hell, like the ones that we know. I wouldn't be surprised if it weren't. But a shadow, that's a person. Death was swirling around her. Eris, is that you? Eris, what are you doing here?

1:48:40 No. Eris is like. Somewhere with the stupid knife. Yeah, I know. Yeah. So that's one. I have nothing else that's. Like no other. Evidence to pull other than all of the things we have talked about on this podcast so far about linking shadows too well. And then my second one, I'm going to read 2 quotes in succession and you can tell me what you think my theory is.

1:49:04 Quote #1A Court of Mist and Fury chapter 39. What? Do the tattooed. Stars and mountains on your knees mean the paper had vanished. A heartbeat later, when it hadn't returned, I dressed and gone to breakfast. I was halfway through my eggs and toast when the paper appeared beside my plate, neatly folded.

1:49:19 That I will bow before no one and nothing but my crown. Quote #2 Court of Silver Flings, Chapter 77. Oh my God. Then Reese fell to his knees and took Nesta's hand in his, pressing his mouth to her fingers. Thank you. He wept, head bowed. Cassian knew it wasn't in gratitude for Reese's own life that he knelt upon the sacred tattoos inked upon his knees. And Nesta is wearing the crown.

1:49:50 I mean, Nesta, the crown had just fallen off. Yeah, but yeah, OK. He's an hysteria, I think. Nesta. Everything for me is triangulating. Towards Nesta is Celine's heir, and she is the crown of that whole region. I think Nesta is his crown. I think Nesta is going to rule. I'm here for it. It's fine with me.

1:50:14 I mean, Nesta did just wear his crown like that. Yeah. The crown, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I love it. I have one. From that same scene, let's talk about 3 quotes from that scene because there's so much to impact there. The quote is Phaera was dying, the babe was dying and. Reese would die. With them. How had it come to this?

1:50:36 A bargain made through love between two mates would now end in three lives lost. Cassian looked across the bed to where Elaine was holding Pharaoh's other hand and Nesta held Elaine's. There was no sound when the tiny winged babe emerged, when more stood there, blankets in hand, and took the unmoving boy from Maja's bloody hands.

1:50:55 And then Maja swore. And Reese. Reese was screaming. Cassian knew as Reese lunge for favor on the bed what was about to happen, yet no force in the world could stop it. So we have Farrah dying, we have Nicks being stillborn, and we have Reese lunging for the bed but not dying yet. We do not have Nesta wearing any item of the trove yet. This is important.

1:51:17 The next line, the world slowed, went cold. When great powers in the mass verse die, time slows, right? Reese isn't dying yet. Reese is still alive. So it's either Nick's or Farrah. My money's on Nick's. My money's on Nick's. One of them is a. Is a great power in the mass first, basically. That's the. Theory and we don't have any time fuckery with the harp yet. We don't have any of that because we we we haven't even gotten to death hovered nearby yet. So my money's on Nick's once again. We need to fucking pay attention to Nick's. We need to pay attention to Nick's. It would be I would like if it were Pharah like if that. Ended up being the case.

1:52:01 I would be so bored, but I just feel like based on everything, it could easily, just as easily be Pharaoh, yeah. That's what it could be next. Yeah, right. What are you reading? The will of the money still. Okay. What about you? I finished the will of the money. Nice, I quite liked. It it got a.

1:52:18 Lot better. I've already started the strength of the few. Yeah, nice. We'll talk about it at some point. We don't need to talk about it now. It's good. I recommend it. Let's let's leave it at that for now. And at some point we'll talk about it in more depth. All right, that is it from us for this week.

1:52:31 You can find us on social media. We are drags in the details pod on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube. Oh, we're on Facebook. I forgot to mention that, but we are on Facebook. You can e-mail us.dragusinthedetailspod@gmail.com. As we mentioned earlier in the episode, Super Duper helps us out. If you would like to, as the kids say, smash that subscribe button, that would be great for us. We want to keep bringing you guys the best content we can, and it really helps us when we have the numbers to back that up.

1:53:03 So if you would like to do that, that would be great. Anything else I'm forgetting? I don't think so. All right, read Crescent City. Read Crescent City. Everybody here, if you want to reread now, it's the time to. Start if you want to reread. Oh, I keep forgetting to do. This at the beginning of the episode our.

1:53:20 Discord is doing a read along book club reading the masters in Republication order. It's a reread. I want to be so clear. Oh, it's a reread. Yeah, the right time. To announce it, because I'm pretty sure they're talking about. Yes, if you. Have already read the mass verse and would like to reread the mass verse with a bunch.

1:53:39 Of like minded people who also love the mass verse. They are reading it in publication order. Ronnie and I are not reading it in publication order, but we will chime in where we think it's good in conversations or when time allows. Just they're finding all these connections. It's really awesome.

1:53:54 It's super fun and I think they're gonna do some like video calls and stuff. So there will be some some face to face aspects of it too. So if that sounds like something you're interested in, the discord link is always in our notes. I know sometimes you guys have trouble finding it, so just reach out.

1:54:09 We will gladly send it to you. That's it for us this week. It's fucking 10:00 PM Love you, bye. Love you, bye.