ACOTAR: Koschei Deep Dive | Breaking Down ALL the Lore around ACOTAR 6’s Likely Villain

0:00 So I also did a little deep dive into Swan Maiden mythology. In Germanic mythology, these women are typically Valkyries. Why the fuck is Merrill researching the Valkyries if Merrill is being influenced by Koche? Is Koche directing this research because he has the Valkyries trapped as Swan maidens? A guest There are hotel chains that will sell sheets. Yeah, did you not know this?

0:36 I mean, I guess I did, but I never. Like you can buy the entire Marriott home line, you should know this. You can buy their scent. So here's the thing that Connor did buy Hotel sheets. We now have hotel sheets on our bed. He's very excited about this. I'm not unexcited about it, but we slept in them for the first time last night and we like got into bed. He's like, how do you feel about the sheets? And I was like, these are really nice sheets. I travel a lot for work listeners, you may or may not know this, but Abby knows this.

1:08 I travel a lot for work. And I was like, these are really good sheets. But now I'm having like a little bit of an association issue. I kind of feel like I might be on the road. Yes, yes, no, I understand because listeners too used to travel a lot for work and one of the apartment buildings that I lived in once absolutely 100% bought the Marriott scent and would spray it around the lobby.

1:29 So I would come home after traveling for work where I had been. I stayed in Marriott's all the time and I would come home and I'd be like, I'm finally home. But my brain would be like, no, you're not. You're like you're on the road, bitch. Like you're not home. Yeah, no, I did sleep all the way through the night. So I don't know what that says about me, but no, I my strong sheets, we have per kale sheets, which I now that I have per kale sheets, I can't sleep in anything else because they are, they are much better.

1:56 I don't care about thread count. I don't care about color. I just it has to be per Kale. I don't know these things, but we had those before. You told me about Per Kale. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like it. Yeah, those were the before sheets. And so I'm like, why did we need to look? I'm not. They weren't good.

2:13 They're good. Everything is good. However I did. I was like, am I? Where am I? Am I home? Am I at work? Yeah. What's going on? What's going on? I hate that. I hate when you wake up and you're like, for that one second, you're like, where the fuck am I? Literally waiting on yeah, it is pretty easy because I do have like a small bundle of fur that's like right next to my face.

2:35 So it is pretty easy I think. We need to specify that you're talking about a dog so that PITA doesn't come after you. Don't literally sleep with your furs as your. I'm talking about my small dog, a small bundle of birth that is a little doughnut. Anyways, anyways, I'm Ronnie. I'm Abby, and this is Dragons in the Details, where we pick apart our favorite fantasy series over the course of an undetermined number of episodes. Truly undetermined.

3:05 It's been a while. It's been a while, but we're nearing. We're nearing. I'm not even going to commit to nearing close, but I think we're getting there. Yeah. We'll discuss. We're currently covering A Court of Thorns and Roses, the series also known as ACOTAR by Sarah J Masks. So disclaimer these episodes will contain spoilers for the entire ACOTAR series.

3:23 We will announce any other masks for spoilers ahead of time and we keep them to the second-half. So if you are not new here, you know that second-half of our episode ish typically is masks for spoilers first half as ACOTAR only spoilers. So if you've only read ACOTAR, you are in the safe zone until we tell you otherwise. Another disclaimer, this podcast is rated R Do not listen to it with your children.

3:42 I cracked up. I don't know whether you saw this. I don't remember whether it was a YouTube comment or a Discord message or something else. I think it was a Discord intro. Someone in their intro said that they die laughing every time I say that because they always listen to this with their children.

3:59 But they were like art. My children don't know any words. They're toddlers. Well, they. Fucking Will. Well, hopefully their first words are not these words, because you know, we're the. Interesting idea in general, like listening to podcasts with your baby. Like do you think your baby will pick like will start speaking more quickly? I don't know.

4:19 Maybe I don't have a baby so I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I listen with my dog, but there's no, there's no. Worries English. I mean comprehension quite good. Yeah, the. Speaking though, not not getting there. Yeah, the oral presentation is not. No, it's not there. Nope. Anyways, rated R don't recommend listening with your children. Proceed at your own risk.

4:41 I don't know, I don't think I can even say that. Just rate it R. We curse with all books, etcetera. Each week we dive into a specific topic in depth. This week we are digging into a Qatar's closest Loch Ness Monster, Comp Cochet. Cochet is a. Shout out to one of our listeners Discorders I believe now.

5:03 I think she's on our discord now. And fellow creators Dasha, let me find her handle. Actually, she's got 2 accounts. She lives in Austria, but she speaks Russian and she has an English speaking account and a Russian speaking account I believe. And her English speaking account which is obviously the one I can understand because I only understand English is at Daria dot CECICO and she has fun theories herself that she posts.

5:34 But she does speak Russian and she made a video educating everyone on how to properly pronounce Crochets name. I guess in the audio books they say crochet, so they put the emphasis on the O. So audio bookers, you might say no, it's crochet. But we've got Russian evidence and this is a Russian figure. Like this is a Russian Slavic folklore figure that it is pronounced crochet.

5:58 And I also did listen to a podcast episode on the actual folklore figure and they pronounce it crochet. Oh. My God, you did. You did so much prep for this. Well, I had to do some passive prep because it was a terrible week. So that's a separate separate topic. Anyways, we are covering crochet today.

6:14 All right, I will do my best to say crochet. I'm going to try. I'm going to do my best. I do make a concerted effort. Sometimes my brain just stumbles. We try. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Like, tell us the right way to do it and we will happily. We will happily do it happily, happily.

6:29 Especially if you are credible. And as a Russian speaker, I consider Dasha pretty, pretty credible. Thanks Dasha for educating everyone, including us, on how to properly say crochet, crochet, crochet. That's easy. It's crochet without the R. There you go. If that's how you remember it, the fact that you just dyed it to crochet.

6:51 You know why? Because I was just listening to our Striga episode where we talk about the different types of textile, textile and crass we enjoy. I was like, talk about this. She's a Weaver. She's a Weaver. Yeah. Anyways, we come with receipts. We have quotes to backup theories, so you can follow along if you're skeptical.

7:10 You know the drill here. Announcements, Abby. All right. Our deep dive music, our sound editing, our emotional support, everything. Brought to you by Derek, my boyfriend. So thank you. Derek, I don't actually know if you listen to these episodes all the way through, so you'll probably never hear this, but thank you.

7:26 We very much appreciate you for all that you do. Yeah. Can we get a little bit of like maybe some background and tell does he just look at like the edges and like, correct the waveforms? Yeah. OK. All right. So he has no idea he'll. Listen to like a minute or two of it, but like he's not like listening all the way through, but he's just like balancing it out. Apparently he's not as a true audio file, He's not that impressed with the software that we used to record this podcast, so.

7:52 Neither am I, frankly. For other reasons, not the audio software. We have notes. We're not going to be notes. We have notes. All right, So Deep Time Music brought to you by Schwidley, that is SCHWOODLEYI learned something fun this week, which I think we already do, but I want to tell you about it.

8:10 I learned that if you say something to the human brain over and over and over again, it just starts to dismiss it. So when you say or when I say, when anyone says like, comment, subscribe, no one hears that. We need to come up with original ways to say like, comment and subscribe. So this week I'm telling you guys what I'm doing to you as I'm emotionally manipulating you, so I hope you enjoy it.

8:30 OK. If you would like, we would really love it. We would really appreciate it. If you like what we do like our stuff, comment Apple podcasters. I see you guys, you did a great fucking job. Thank you so much. We got like 5 new comments on our Apple podcast. I really love that. So thank you so much. But it really helps us out if you, if you comment, if you follow us, if you like our stuff, we would really appreciate it.

8:51 We would really love it. Ronnie and I are both trying to, well, at least I'm trying to do more of this in 2026. So the more kind of support we get, the more numbers we get, the easier that's going to be for us to do. So thank you in advance for that. And then our last shout out is, as we've started saying every episode, we highly encourage you to read the mass first, especially if you are into this podcast, if you like theories, if you like deep dives. We most of our stuff is coming from the mass first at this point that we're this we're this deep into the and like most of the interesting stuff is happening in the mass verse. We still love our actor sections. I'm going to say for this

9:28 episode today, that's actually not true today. That is not true. Sorry, Cochet. Pretty Acatar heavy episode because we don't know that much about him. This is going to be a pretty speculative, lore based, mythology based episode. We're really excited about it, though. We think it'll be fun, but in general highly encourage you to read the mass verse, which probably brings me into my announcement about next season, which we have not.

9:51 Should we do that? We can do that. You're going to be telling me live, I'm going to learn. I don't know what we're doing next season. We could pull up and I am assuming I know the answer, but we have done a couple of polls. We've asked around what you guys would be interested in hearing about next season, and the answer has pretty overwhelmingly been Crescent City.

10:13 Definitely read the last first time guys like get cracking. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. So we don't know exactly when that's going to be. And full disclaimer here, we're going to actually take a break between seasons this time because last time we did not do that and that led to a little bit of burnout on both of our parts. We're going to take a break.

10:26 I don't know how long it's going to be. It's not going to be too long. We're going to take a break between seasons, but our next season will be Crescent City. If you haven't already bred Crescent City and you want to listen to next season, I would recommend as soon as you finish this podcast starting because it is 3 fucking tomes of Mass versus Lord, but they're great. Probably as many pages as that guitar. Yeah, I haven't counted the.

10:47 Pages of both series. I mean, it's, it's got to be like 3000 pages of Lord, I mean. Yeah, that sounds right. So every single Crescent City book is longer than the longest stack guitar book, right? Which is why the break is required by the way we reread. Before we start in the season, yes. We don't just, like, hang out.

11:10 Also, some of you asked, and I do think this is worth mentioning, some of you asked why we're not going to do Throne of Glass next, why we're going to do Crescent City ahead of Throne of Glass. So the reason for that is because as far as we know, as far as we've been led to believe, Throne of Glass is a complete series, right?

11:23 So obviously on this podcast, we do a lot of speculating about the plot, about the future of the series. As far as we know, we are choosing to believe at this point that Throne of Glass is done. What we are going to cover Throne of Glass, assuming that this podcast still exists and we have the time, we are going to cover Throne of Glass. But what that will look like is a full mass first season. So it will be it will be mass first theories. There will not be a Throne of Glass only section. There will not be a mass first section. It will it will just be basically our full full mass first section, the mass first series. So that's our plan right now.

11:57 Let us know what you think of it if you agree with it. But next season we are going to cover Crescent City. Oh, and I guess I should mention as well, if you're listening to this, this is not a problem. We are going to structure that a bit differently as well. So there's not going to be the Crescent City only section. What it's going to be is ACOTAR and Crescent City. And then at the end, we will do our Throne of Glass section because Sarah herself recommends she's like, you can't read Crescent City without reading ACOTAR. So we're going to follow that advice too. Yep.

12:23 OK, those are our announcements, big ones this week. So TBD on start date, but that is the next season. We've got at least what, 3-4 episodes left, so. I would say we have at least three to five episodes left of ACOTAR. Yeah, yeah. So. And I as you guys know or maybe you don't know, Bloomsbury released their 2026 schedule and ACOTAR 6 is nowhere on it through at least September.

12:48 So we got time, we got nothing but. Time. We have time to lose our minds, plenty of time. So we've got basically 8 months of no Sarah J Maas release insight, no Rebecca Yaris release insight. So we're just stuck here with our thoughts and we've got a Kelly Heart release on the horizon we've got and we've got other stuff.

13:15 That's about it. That's what we've got. It seems to me like a great time to dive into Crescent City. That's how I feel like about it. Seems like a great time to just read the entire mass versus. That's the summary. All right, great directions, omissions, social media shoutouts. Abby, do you have any to share with the? Class I have one and it's an omission. Sorry, it's not a social media shut up. I don't even really know if it's an omission, but I noticed this as I was prepping for this episode and I wanted to talk about it.

13:40 I think we have confirmation and this isn't even really like a like a crazy thing. I think we get confirmation that Lucian is Helion's air, and I think we get that in 1/4 Silver Flames in the scene where Cassian goes to visit Vasa and Lucian and Eris happens to be there and Jurian to ask questions about Cochet. So the quote of for that This is in a Court of Silver Flames Chapter 7.

14:06 Cassian tried to think over the bellowing beast in his head that tightened every muscle of his body until only bloody violence would appease it. Eris had just threatened Nesta and because Cassie and Anesta are mates, Cassian's fighting this primal urge that he has right? Easy. Lucian said. Cassian snarled. Easy.

14:22 Lucian repeated and flame sizzled in his russet eye. The flame, the surprising dominance within it, hit Cassian like a stone to the head, knocking him from his knee to kill and kill and kill whatever might threaten. So that's in Chapter 7. So I emphasize dominance when I read that quote. The reason for that is because we have a scene later where Reese uses his High Lord dominance on Cassian. This is also in 1/4 of Silver Flames. The quote for that is tell her Reese ordered Night swirling around his wings.

14:52 Cassian bristled. Tell her Cassian the asshole had used that inherent dominance on him. Cassian gritted out. Anyone who pulls a warrior from the blood right will be haunted down and executed along along with the warrior who's dishonorably removed from the right. We have a couple other times where where Reese uses it too. So when he's trying to wake up Farrah from her nightmare when they're back in the Night Court, but she's having a nightmare of under the mountain.

15:15 The quote is Farrah. The voice was at once the night and dawn and the stars and the earth and every inch of my body calmed at the primal dominance in it. So basically this inherent dominance, this primal dominance is a High Lord thing and we get Lucian using it. So I think 100% confirmed Lucian is definitely Helions here.

15:33 Not that we had any other really candidates for it, but I just think that this is a nice little moment of Sarah saying, hey, pay attention, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I agree. Cool. That was it. I think it's fair. I, I mean, I, I think it's the most, I shouldn't say it's the most interesting thing about Lucian's character, but like it's the thing that keeps you coming back to Lucian this like. It has broad implications.

15:57 Thing about his lineage, yeah. It has broad implications that are important. Believe it there. Yeah, I have one that's a social media shout out more of a like a response to a reaction we got from one of our listeners, a comment on YouTube. It's from Starz in Paris and the comment was I love you guys, I really do, but you're so good at deep diving that I'm starting to think a guitar is full of plot holes. Broken heart emoji.

16:23 I think Throne of Glass is a masterpiece. It doesn't have spoilers. I think Throne of Glass is a masterpiece and I haven't read a Crescent City Friends. Yes, I stay for the whole video but you guys find so many plot holes in a guitar that is making me think the series might not be that good anymore. I'm not a smart leader, I'm here for the good times so I would have never caught all these plot holes on my own. I wanted to shout this out because, one, I'm worried that other people are listening to this podcast and feeling this way, and so I want to address it. And two, this commenter hasn't read Crescent City. And so one, I'm really, really urging anybody who feels this way, listening to our AC guitar

16:56 only sections to please read Crescent City because I think it does answer a lot if you're feeling like things are maybe a little Swiss cheese about this, about this series. Yeah. But two the things that we are finding and addressing like inconsistencies and like things to ponder. I don't personally feel like we've found anything that's completely inaddressable, honestly. And when we have, we've just called it an oopsie. And so I'm like a hundred 100% addressing that. We have found some oopsies here.

17:28 Like we found some things where we're like, like Sarah said this, then she said that like maybe that's an editing error, but I think when you're building worlds, this complexity, like there are things that she may choose to never explain, but I still think that everything that we've found so far still has a potential explanation. Everything that we've discussed on this podcast, I think still has a potential explanation.

17:55 And so my response to this is I don't think anybody should feel disheartened by the series or like they don't want to read the series. Like that makes me really sad. That's not the intent of this podcast. We don't want to point out plopples. I mean, we will point them out if we think that they're there and worth calling out that's. Certainly not our intent.

18:12 I think it's more to like, how do I, how do I put this point out the mysteries almost and point out where things don't make sense. And if they don't make sense, right? It's it's intentional, right? I mean, we hope it's intentional. That's we think it's intentional. We found enough intent for it to seem like it's intentional, right? So it's like if something isn't making sense, if something isn't adding up, we're trying to ask that question. We're trying to provide an answer to sometimes that answer. It's not within the actor.

18:40 I think might be part of the. Yeah, might be part of it. I mean, this was on our prison episode, one of our other comments that I thought was hilarious. I wasn't planning to shout it, but one of our other comments was from the Gen. XI. Love the Gen. X Reese reminds me of another fantasy male main character. You know nothing.

18:55 Reese know. Like there are characters who don't know things. Like they don't know things and that is worth discussing and worth calling out. Why don't they know things and what don't they know? There is a concept of unreliable narration in fiction in general, and that's what we think is worth discussing.

19:12 And why unreliable and what don't they know and what is the truth? That's what we want to talk about on this podcast. We think that it's very much worth discussing. Obviously we spend hours of time on it, so. So much fucking time. That's all, but thank you for your comment because we think it's worth, I think it's worth addressing stars in Paris.

19:31 Yeah, we love Akatar. I think I shouted this out on our last episode but I'm like probably going to have to reread Akatar soon. If I'm being honest. Yeah, I mean, sometimes I end up rereading Akimath and a Court of Self Flames by accident. Yeah, just for the enjoyment. Frost and Starlight, just for a little bit of heartwarming holiday cheer. Yeah.

19:50 The Christmas special. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Cool. Anything else? All right, fun question. So this is our crochet episode, and we've already covered Shriega and the Bone Carver, which is our happy family. So, Abby, what do you think? Is that family's crochet Shriega and the Bone Carver's favorite board game? You know I fucking hate board games. You like what?

20:13 Do you like Trivial Pursuit? Because I like trivia, right? Yeah. I like taking tests. Yeah. I think I feel like the board game that most reflects their current situations is Monopoly, because you can end up in jail and you have to get out of jail. And you're also kind of trying to build an empire, which I think Crochet is certainly trying to do.

20:38 Risk also popped into my mind, but I need to have a disclaimer. I've never played Risk. I don't know the rules of Risk. OK. I'm not a big board game. Person, you could choose a card game or another game. I'm going, I'm going, I'm going to go with Monopoly. You know, with Monopoly. Yeah, the jail part, the jail partner. OK, I think they would probably.

21:00 I like the answer. Monopoly. The game that came to mind for me was Settlers of Catan, which is like the same concept. You know, I've never played Settlers of Catan. Which is. Crazy 8 fucking hours to sit around. An 8 hour game, It's shorter than Monopoly. That's fair, I've never finished a game of Monopoly.

21:19 Which is insane. I was tortured via monopoly as a child. We should talk more about that at some point. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, yeah. I feel like sellers of Katan over like something like chess or checkers because obviously there's multiplayer. You can't play Chester Checkers with three people, so that's automatically out.

21:41 Yeah, Chinese checkers. Yeah. The other thing though with subtlers is you do need. I think you need four people, so that wouldn't really work. OK, well, we'll get Lanthus involved. Yeah, maybe Lanthus could come over. Because I'm not clear if he's a death God. Are you? I still don't. Know. Yeah, I mean, we'll talk about it. We'll discuss, yeah.

22:00 If anybody has a better one, clearly we're not source. It's the wrong question for me. Yeah, we should have called Ross. Then we'd have to explain like why, like all the characters like. Okay well so there's this guy Cochet. He's trapped at the bottom of the lake and he's a sorcerer and there's this woman Shriga who eats people and there's an illusionist named the bone Carver.

22:21 He feel like. Carves Bones what board game is for him, Yeah. Yeah, carves people's deaths. Yeah. OK, so maybe Monopoly, maybe Settlers of Catan, but maybe not the greatest dancer, seeing as Abby doesn't know board games and I play probably 5. OK, shall we deep dive? We shall. OK, All right, Abby, what are Crochet's?

22:48 Powers All right, I'm going to do a little general background and then dive into crochet because we honestly know very little about him. He is a character who's actually been around since Aqua War. The things we know about him are slight. Is this quote from Accor or Akamaf? All right, maybe you know, maybe you could tell me. All right, so we first hear about Cochet from the Bone Carver.

23:08 The quotes for that are what Akor, That is Akor. All right, so the quotes for that is the Carver trace 3 overlapping interlocked circles in the dirt. If you want to know what we think those circles are, go listen to our Bone Carver episode. That is a plug. You have met my sister, my twin, the Weaver, as you now call her. I knew her as Striga.

23:26 She and our older brother Cochet, how they delighted in this world when we fell into it. So it's ackward chapter 23. So again, Sarah dropped this name Cochet in book 3 and we're getting set up. I mean, I'm pretty sure he's our book 6 villain. It seems like he's going to be our book 6 villain. So again, the plotting here is intentional and good. So good job, Sarah.

23:47 We next hear about him in relation to Vasa, but we don't get him by name. So the situation here is Elaine is having a vision about a human queen that they think could be a potential ally in the upcoming war against Highburn. We're told the other human Queens told sold her to some quote darkness some sorcerer Lord.

24:05 She shook her head. I can never see him what he is. There is an Onyx box that he possesses more vital than anything save for them the girls he keeps other girls others still like her, but she by day she is one formed by night human again. So that's Aqua war chapter 33. We know the bone Carver confirmed for us already that him and him and Cochet and Striga are from another world.

24:28 But Elaine not being able to see him lines up with the serial saying that she can't see sorry, the serial saying that it can't see the bone Carver because his thread is not woven into their world. We also know his motivations. We're told that everything he does is to free himself. And we also know that he actually tried to once free himself long ago. So the quote for that is this is Silver Flames Chapter 7. This is Vasa talking.

24:52 She says I fear what may happen if he ever gets free of the lake. If he sees this world on the cusp of disaster and knows he could strike and strike hard and make himself its master as he once tried to do long ago. Those are legends that predate our courts, Era said. Vasa nodded. It's all I have gleaned from my time in slaves to him. So legends that predate our courts, right? We know that the Bone Carver went into the prison before there were courts.

25:18 We have Coche trying to free himself from this lake before there were courts. So when the hell was he imprisoned on the lake too? Like how long was he imprisoned on the lake before he tried to free himself? Like how long ago was all this happening? Long time, long time ago. I don't have an answer, but this is like ancient, ancient, ancient history.

25:36 He is described as old, old, old, old, old, and like that which we get for the Bone Carver, we get that for the prison, we get that for the library. So again, all of these places kind of connected together. He is cursed to a lake. So what we know about that is Elaine says there is a lake deep in the continent, I think hidden amongst the mountains and the ancient forests.

25:57 Elaine's throat bobbed. He keeps them all at the lake, them being the other women that he traps. That's Akroar. Chapter 33. Bone Carver says had I been braver, I might have abided my time. Waited for their power to fade for that long ago. Faye warrior to trick extriga into diminishing her power and becoming confined to the middle Cochet to confined and bound by his little lake on the continent. So that's Akroar chapter 23.

26:19 So he's confined to this lake. He's in monopoly jail on this lake. Only reason I'm bringing that up only reason I think this is super interesting is because the cauldron was said to be lost at the bottom of a lake in Lapland at one point in time. So the bone Carver tells us this. What he says is you were always my favorite talking to Reece. He said giving a smile.

26:39 I would never for a moment think was childlike. Very well. The cauldron was hidden at the bottom of Frozen Lake in Lapland. Reese began to turn for me as if he'd headed there right now. But the bone car were added and vanished a long, long time ago. And that's in Mist and Fury Chapter 18. Is that Coast Chase Lake where Lapland is?

26:57 No, it's a real There's a Lapland in our world like there's a real Lapland. In the world. I guess N no idea this fucking not. No, I have no idea. It's a crochet's lake. Crochet's Lake Crochet the content. On the continent, we don't know where was it Cochet's? Like did Cochet have the cauldron?

27:15 Did he maybe do something to the cauldron? Did he maybe manipulate it? I do not know. We do not have enough. But these are the only lakes we really know about on the continent at least. I mean, I don't think Lapland is. I think Lapland's on the continent. I don't think it's on par at the end. Yeah, because Lapland is in Finland, right?

27:32 Yeah, or Sweden. I don't know one of those, so it's in the Arctic circles. I mean, Prythian looks like Finland. Yeah, Prythian looks like like the British House. Yeah. So if you take the continent to be like Europe, then the Cauldron being on the continent would make sense. Yeah, I agree. I agree.

27:51 But we that's, yeah, we're deducing that. That's not, that's not, that's not Canon. Not Canon. Not Canon. We don't know where Prythian's version of Laughlin is. OK, so that's our background. So in terms of powers, big things, he can shift other people. That's kind of my first one here. He has seemingly, we don't have confirmation of this.

28:12 I know everyone calls them swan maidens on the Internet, but we don't actually have confirmation. But he has seemingly turned a group of women into Swans from Elaine's vision. We have. Their feathers are white as snow. They glide across the water while she reaches in the skies above it. That's Aqua Chapter 33.

28:26 The only other character we've seen who has been able to shift other people is fucking Tamlin. So like, is there a connection there? Is it the same power? Is this a spell? I don't know, but just that's Tamlin is the only other person we've seen with this type of power. I think. Just keep that in mind. We're told he's incredibly gifted at spell work, so he has cursed Vasa to be a firebird by day, woman by night. And then we have this quote.

28:51 This is actually from Reese in 1/4, Frost in Starlight Chapter 7. And Vasa, She had stayed her keeper, had granted her reprieve from her curse, the enchantment that turned her into a firebird by day, woman again by night, and bound her to his leg deep in the continent. I'd never seen such spell work. I'd sent my power over her helion to hunting for any possible threads to unbind it.

29:14 I found none. It was as if this curse was woven into her very blood. I think there's a couple really interesting turns of phrase in this sentence. So the first one was bound her to his leg deep in the continent. We know that Koche was bound to his leg. That's the quote that was used there, bound to his leg by an ancient spell, right?

29:34 So is he kind of using the same kind of magic that was used on him somehow? And then the other piece of this is hunting for any possible threads to unbind it. When Ameren kind of sheds her mortal skin, the phrase that's used is like she was unbound, right? Like the Cauldron unbound her. I don't know what this means.

29:55 I don't know if Vasa is not what she appears to be. I don't really have any thoughts there. But I think it's interesting that we're getting the same kind of turns of phrase here to describe both the curse for Koschek binding and unbinding of Ameren, and the curse for Vasa. He can winnow other people without being there himself, right? So he disappears several dozen of heiress's soldiers and then later sends them to the prison to fight Nesta and Cassie. And I know there's been a lot of back and forth about how did those soldiers get into the prison. We're basically told that Reese leaves the gates open. Unclear if those gates are the gates or the doors. I know there's a lot of back and

30:33 forth on that. Barring all that, putting all that aside, putting all that aside for a second. Let those down. He is able to get them to the island that the prison is. He doesn't get them into the prison, but he gets them to the island that the prison is on. So he is able to winnow Eris soldiers and kind of put them wherever he wants them to be. He's able to transport Brie Allen to various places too, and he kidnaps Eris.

31:01 So the quote for that is my spies got word that heiress had been captured by Brie Allen. She sent his remaining soldiers after him while he was out hunting with his hounds. They grabbed him and somehow they were all winnowed back to her palace, I'm guessing using Koster's powers. So like, how does this work? And he just like grab anyone at any point in time and winnow them from point A to point B.

31:21 Like what is like, that's pretty fucking crazy if you ask me. And. The thing that we like, seemed weird about 1 moment specifically is when Brie Allen, like, commanded him to do it. She was like, yeah, I was like, who the fuck are you to speak to this thing that way? Whatever he is, I was like, oh, you're dead.

31:43 He knows that you're gonna die. That's what's about to happen. He will eventually kill you. Yeah. There's no way. And then Nesta did it for him instead. Yeah. He also, I thought this was an interesting part. He winnows Brie Allen and Cassian to Romiel during the blood, right? Right. So we know that there's no magic allowed or like not even like it's not even like allowed. It's like you cannot do magic during the blood, right? Yeah, there's nothing.

32:12 Right so like unclear if this was kind of like unclear how he did this, unclear if it was like Oh yeah you can winnow in because like earlier Illyrians normally can't winnow or if it was if it's like he's extra powerful. But the quote that we were just talking about is I have need of you Lord of Bastards. The ancient looking queen seized. Cassian could say nothing, couldn't move. The crown glowed like molten iron. Rialan ordered.

32:35 Koche winnow us. The Death Lord pointed a long fingered hand of Rialan and Cassie and flicked his fingers and the world vanished, spinning into blackness and wind. Fucking crazy. The fucking balls on this bitch. Unbelievable. Yeah, and she met the end that we all expected her to. So we have other characters that we know other people, but it's it's a ride along situation.

32:59 Yeah. It's like no one's ever just like, yeah, it's I'll bring it with me. Yes. We're not even, I mean, in the case of the prisoners, we assume it was not even a point in winnow situation. It was just from a distance. Yeah, yeah. He's just, he's literally just moving Aris's soldiers like around.

33:16 I think. I don't even really know. Yeah. Also, like I know that we saw him form at some point like he is, but he's bound to that lake. So whatever he physically is like, he's in that lake. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's right. He's in that lake. He's. He's not. Moving. Whatever he is, he's in the lake.

33:33 Whatever he is, he's in the lake. All right, I have a couple more things so he can seemingly I think he can control people a little bit. So he seemed to manipulate the human Queens into giving him Vasa. The quote we have for that is why was he imprisoned Cassie and asked The story is too long to tell. She Hedge but know that Brie Allen and the other sold me to him and not through their devices but his by words he planted in their courts whispered on their winds, right. So we don't know exactly what that means that I don't know if that's mind work.

34:06 I don't know if that's Daimati work. I don't know if that's I have spies in those courts and those spies are going to work for me and do political intrigue. We don't really know what that is, but we know he can whisper on the wind. And Azrael actually later confirms that the quote we get is what Vasa suspected is true.

34:21 The death Lord Koche has been whispering in Brie Allen's ear. He remains trapped at his lake. He's trapped A dislike, but his words carry on the wind. To her, he is ancient, his depth of knowledge fathomless. As you guys will recall in our library episode, we know that Meryl can hear the wind, which is why some people, I'm not saying us, but some people think that Koche is whispering to her on the wind.

34:43 And we have other characters too, who can hear the wind, but I think he's the only one we have that can whisper on it. The other thing that I thought was really interesting here, and I think this speaks to spies, He seems to know that Eris and the Night Court are working together because he lays a trap for Eris to get to Cassie and Anesta, right?

35:05 How would he know to do that? Like how would he like? No one would follow that logic. The quote we have for that is this is silver Flames. Briellen glowered at the interruption. I was waiting for him. She nodded toward Cassian, who was bristling with rage, something like loathing and fear now pushing through the cloudiness in his eyes. Days and days I waited for him to get close enough for me to use the crown to ensnare him.

35:28 I had to use that brash princeling heiress to draw him in a soft laugh. Eres tried to help his soldiers when they surrounded him during his hunt. Help those wretches he rode right up to them. Rather than gallop away as any wise person would, they grabbed him with minimal fuss. Even those infernal hounds of him could do nothing as Cochet winnowed him away.

35:46 How did Cochet know that capturing Eris would lead to Cassian coming to rescue him? Like, no one's supposed to know that. That's a huge secret that Eris and Cassian and Reese are all working together. Like I wrote this down, there's not a long list of people that know that. I think it's just the inner circle. And Kir is Kir working with Cochet or is he is he listening on the wind Like there's a moment where Azrael this is what I was going to say before, but I I can bring it up now. Azrael does not know that the 6th queen that Vasa is alive right?

36:17 So the quote for that is the 6th queen more breathe The queen who the golden one said wasn't I'll the 6th queen is alive? Azrael asked, calm and steady, the voice of the High Lord spymaster who had broken enemies and charmed allies. This is Akima chapter 33. So he is able to hide the existence of Vasa even from Azrael, who is like the best by master in the world. And he somehow knows about this alliance with Eris and Cassian. How's he doing all that from his little lake in maybe Lapland, maybe not Lapland?

36:46 Yeah. And then the last piece of his power I had. He can create illusions, right? So it's the quote for that as an animated kernel. Kernel of magic. But when Cassian and Azrael go to rescue Eris, the quote we have is. Brie Allen drew back the hood of her cloak. There was nothing there. The material fell and pulled on the stones. Eris's face remained blank, empty. Just an animated kernel of magic. A Slytherin voice drawed from the lake 30 feet from the shore. Standing atop the surface floated a shadow. It shifted and warped, it shifted and warped, its edges fluttering, but it had the vague shape of a tall male. Who are you?

37:24 Asriel demanded. But Cassia knew. Crochet. He whispered. I think it's interesting that his voice is Slytherin here, when we get so much snake imagery with Ameren and with Heiress just in general. Point of that magic, point of that is, one of his powers is that he can create illusions. We've called the Bone Carver an illusionist.

37:40 He's usually creating illusions about himself, but it seems like Crochet can do this externally. Yeah, Yep, okay, I just had a couple extra things and they're like pretty obvious, so maybe it just goes without saying. 1 is just the whole deathless. Of it all, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's said to be, whether it's true or not, unable to be killed. And the quote for that is just is Cassian saying when he's talking about Lanthus, nothing can kill him. Clearly untrue.

38:10 So, like, I kind of assume it's untrue for Crochet as well. And we'll get into all of his folklore and all of that, but Crochet, too, cannot be killed. He is the master of his own death. Whatever that means. What does it mean? I don't know. All right, next question, Ronnie. What is in Crochet's box? OK, so you already read this quote, but we know from Elaine that Crochet has an Onyx box that contains something vital, more vital than anything save for the girls. So that's an accord, Chapter 33, and I think you read it, but there's an Onyx box that he possesses more vital than anything safe for them, the girls. I think to properly, in my opinion, to properly answer this question, we do need to talk a

38:50 little bit about Crochet's representation in Slavic folklore. So Crochet, as we talked about briefly in the introduction, is one of the most I learned in preparing for this episode iconic villains in Russian and broader Slavic folklore and is referred to as crochet of the death, the Deathless. So Sergey Mast knew what she was doing when she said crochet of the Deathless directly in her text. And he's called this because he's unable to die through normal means.

39:17 Before we talk about why, why he is that way and kind of some of the typical tales, one thing that I think is super interesting is that the etymology of his name is debated. But the two terms that are up for debate are the words. Dasha's going to have to comment if I'm pronouncing this correctly, but are the words coast, which means bone, or from an old Slavic word that means slave or captive. And in this story, Cochet is brother to the bone Carver and captive to a lake.

39:47 So we have both of those kind of reflected here. So good job, good job, Sarah. Anyways, Cachet is typically described as a skeletal figure, basically a living corpse that is very thin, Bony, kind of like emaciated looking, but immensely powerful. And he can take varying forms, whirlwinds, storms, and is capable of curses, enchantments, dark magic, sorcery, all the stuff that our our crochet in this story is capable of or seems to be capable of, and he typically possesses in. Folklore treasures and it's pretty wealthy despite being kind of this like terrible, terrifying monster. He lives in like palaces and in wealth and it's represented to be like this very like grenade, like wealthy adorned kind of figure.

40:32 But his whole thing is the like legend of his death and the secret of his death. And so is death. His crochet's death is this nested secret. And so there's a classic formula, but it can kind of vary because folklore is folklore. But the classic formula of Cochet's death is hidden far away on an island.

40:51 On the island stands an oak tree. Under the oak tree is buried in iron chest. Inside the chest is a hare. Inside the hare is a duck. Inside the duck is an egg. Inside the egg is a needle. And the tip of a needle contains his death or his soul, depending on the story. And to kill Cochet, the hero of whatever story is being told needs to find the island, dig up the chest, catch the hare which is going to hatch, duck which will fly away when the hair is opened, retrieve the egg which the duck is going to try to drop into the sea, and then break the needle. And there's like varying tales of whether the hero is supposed to like break the needle over she's head specifically, or like when where like the exact

41:34 circumstances over where the needle is supposed to be broken. I think it's interesting too that it's a needle considering a sister in in Sarah J Mass's books as the Weaver, but I didn't really find any exact ties there. But back to our Sarah J Mass cochain. This Onyx box is said to be is said to be vital, specifically the word vital, which is typically used to define organs, right? Like defined as like indispensable to the continuance of life than anything saved for the girls, more vital than anything safe for the girls.

42:01 So I bet, and it's admittedly entirely based on this mythology. Well, sorry, one more thing in this podcast episode that I listen to, which I'm going to shout out, the podcast Spirits Mythology, Legends of Folklore did a 30 minute podcast episode on crochet. Highly recommend. It's great. This podcast episode also kind of likened crochet to a lich, which is it's like from Dungeons and Dragons.

42:24 And it's basically a character that like deposits, it's life in other things. It's like crochet is basically doing this in these other items. It's the, it's the Horcrux concept for hearing. I was about to say like, have you heard the, have you seen the analysis that crochet was the inspiration for inspiration for Baltimore?

42:42 Yeah, it's Horcrux. Yeah, exactly the Horcrux concept. So I'm wondering if somehow we're being set up for basically the curse that these women, these women plus Vasa are under are actually like a lich like concept with cachet, which would be obviously like fucked up and devastating and terrifying that he is actually like woven them into somehow the nest of cachet's death.

43:05 And the Onyx box is like, contains the tip of the needle, making it more vital than anything except for the girls, the women, because they are like, the further, the further upfront points of the nest. So as they are killed or freed, it would be a little bit more. Sarah J Mas asked to make. If you free them, then it makes it easier to kill crochet.

43:29 Yeah. And if you get into the Onyx box then you can kill crochet. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's definitely his death. I mean, it's definitely like you're we're going to need to get into the. Box. We need to get the box. Yeah, I agree with everything, everything you said. I have a couple more things to add.

43:44 First thing, the box is described as Onyx. Other things that we have that are described as Onyx. Just real quick, I don't know if this is relevant or irrelevant, but we'll talk about it. So the box that the Veritas is kept in is described as Onyx. The ceiling in the Court of Nightmares is described as Onyx, and the monolith on top of Romeo is Onyx as well. We have a couple quotes about that one. So all of these things are tied to Night Court in one way or another, right?

44:11 We have already talked about the extensive ties that the other two death gods seem to have to Night Court as well. We are now getting a little bit of a Night Court hint here. The other interesting thing is with that Onyx monolith on top of Ramiel, it has these winnowing abilities that Koche has too, right? When you touch the monolith, you end up somewhere else. So like, is that somehow imbued with Koche's power? I don't know.

44:34 I don't know, just speculating here. So are we getting a Night Court tie? Did Coach J have something to do with Romiel at one point in time? If you said that, one of the things I think you said this, one of the things that could be in his, the Onyx box is his soul rather than his death. I don't really think it matters. I think it's kind of the same thing. But what's interesting is if it is his soul, we've seen this type of thing before, right?

44:56 We saw it with Jury. So what we had with Jurian is when Amarantha kept Jurian soul tethered to his eye and his bone, and that kept him alive, right? So in a sense, Jurian was also deathless. Like he did not have a body, but his soul was kept tethered and so he could be resurrected, which is exactly Voldemort.

45:15 Holy fucking shit. Anyway. Really is how did I not know who crochet was when I was reading Harry Potter is my question. We were Devin Young then, and that was that was done with a spell from the King of Hyburn spellbook. And we know that Cochet again is trapped at this lake with an ancient spell.

45:35 So we're getting a lot of spell work here. What I think is also fucking interesting, and I think you read this quote a couple episodes ago, is that when Nesta uses the harp, she wonders if it quote, tried to fuse her soul with the prison. Right. OK. You got your fuck yeah face. Yeah. So the quote we have for that is I'm fine. She called out, shaking off her lingering tremors. But I think someone very wicked used this last. She stared into the darkness above. I think they used it to trap their enemies and their enemies children into the stone itself.

46:07 Was that what had been happening to her just now? Had the harp been pushing her into the rock, fusing her soul with it? She shivered. Because what's happening is that Nesta takes the harp and it's like, forced down into the rock. So was the harp what was used to remove Coche's soul and put it into this box?

46:23 Is this part of his imprisonment? Like, is this actually a curse rather than something he wanted? Like, did the ancient fake warrior use the harp? Put it in the box you have your yes face on. So I'm talking about Utah. Yeah, it's fine. I have others. But like, yeah, yeah, it's a heart. Yeah. OK. I think it's a candidate, like whether it's something that was done was done to him or whether he did it intentionally, yeah, is in my opinion, up for debate because I could see this being a benefit to him in some way as well. I could also seeing.

47:02 I could also see it being a way of imprisoning him. But if? He used it. He's made. Yeah. OK. Yeah, Right. OK. So so just to talk through that only made people can use the trove. We know that, right? And Brie Allen was kind of sent by Koche to retrieve it. Brie Allen was made so she could sense the trove. But I think that's just because Koche was fucking trapped on his leg, right?

47:23 So like, Koshi couldn't do it. I don't think he had any plans for Brie Allen to survive, though, right? So, like, can he use the trove is he made? What does that mean? We'll discuss in mass first. That's your mass first plug, all right. Mass first plug. That is the mass first. Plug This is why you should watch this on video.

47:42 Sorry to our audio only listeners, but the the faces that Ronnie and I give each other. Yeah, you could play the video on Spotify, iTunes. Yeah, you can watch your. Platform here Sol though. Yeah, Spotify and YouTube are your options. Yep. OK, that's all I had. Yeah, I think the harp is a very interesting.

47:59 The harp is the only tool we've been given. I guess that's not true. I guess we've been given the king of hybrid spellbooks. So we've been given two things that can seemingly imbue souls into objects, part people's souls from their bodies. Yeah. And I would, I would give a maybe to the spell book because the spell book, it was still Jurian's eye.

48:17 So it was still like his body. Yeah, if you're right, you're right. You're right. So like, is it Crochet's eye that's sitting in the box or like somebody part of his maybe and I. Thought it was a hair with a duck with an egg with. Yes, I know, I know. Yeah, we don't know what it is. We don't know what it is. Yeah.

48:35 Or we could. I mean, it could also just be that this is Cachet Bedefles and he doesn't need anything and his soul is just in that box. But we're. No, we're definitely. Getting a Horcrux situation that's. What's happening? No, the horcrux situation is valid. I'm more saying like we could easily also just get this plot line without the heartbeating play.

48:51 But yeah, it was better if we could. It would be much better if the heart was in play, but we could. Yeah, cool. Cool. All right, Abby, who are the other women that Crochet keeps prisoner? OK, so I'm going to talk through why we think these women are Swans and a couple interesting quotes. So the quotes we have, these are from Elaine. He keeps other girls, others so like her, but she by day, she is one form by night human.

49:16 I think the important part there is others so like her. We'll get into that in a minute. There is a lake deep in the continent, I think hidden amongst mountains and ancient forests. Elaine's throat bobbed. He keeps them all at the lake. Other women like her. Yes and no. Their feathers are white as snow. They glide across the water while she rages through the skies above it.

49:34 Sorry guys, I know we're rereading quotes. We have like 5 quotes about kosher. That's all book. So they glide across the lake, their feathers are white as snow. We seem to be getting Swans here. The other so like her. I want to talk about what we know about Vasa and then what we might know about this woman because they are so like her supposedly.

49:54 So we know she is a queen, but her Kingdom is no longer hers. We know she's a redhead. I don't think either of those things are that important, but good to know. We know the human queen sold her to Cochet before the events of Aqua War, where these women also sold somehow. I don't know. That would be pretty sorry.

50:12 But it's this form. I mean, it's clearly a form of enslavement, right? Like where they also sold. We somewhat conspicuously. I just want to read this quote. We somewhat conspicuously do not know Vasa's Vasa's last name. So the quote for that is more said to Reese. What information do we have on this 6 Queen?

50:28 Little as real answered for him. We know little Young somewhere in her mid 20s. Scythia lies along the wall to the east, its smallest amongst the human Queen's realms, but rich and trade in arms. She goes by Vasa, but I never got a report with her full name. That's Aquar. Aquar chapter 33. Is she?

50:45 Is her last name important? Do we know her last name? I don't know. I don't know. Personality wise, she's described as brash, young with a foul temper and a Fowler mouth, cultish, fierce, and untamed. These are all adjectives that have been used to describe her. She has a lilting accent and she has flame in her eyes.

51:02 That's the one that I think is important. She is a firebird. We know that she's been cursed to be a firebird. So that's the most likely explanation. But we're also told by Reese that some humans have magic, right? We've we've gone over this conversation before in this podcast, but typically when we've seen someone with fire in their eyes that indicates that they have some type of fire magic. Again, I know that Vasa is a firebird. She this could just be part of her curse, But is it possible that she had magic before and that these other women also had magic before as well?

51:35 And that's what that's what Elaine meant by others so like her and that for some reason, for whatever reason, Cochet needs women who have magic to, I guess, put his soul into is our theory, but in theory free himself, right? We know everything he does is to free himself, so whatever this is, is to free himself. OK so I also did a little deep dive into swan maiden mythology. So there's lots of myth myths about swan maidens. They are from various cultures.

52:00 Typically a man marries a supernatural female and she later shapeshifts from human to bird form with the use of a feathered cloak and leaves him. She always leaves him typically. The man usually then follows the woman to a bathing pool and steals the cloak, preventing her from transforming or leaving him again. There's usually several maidens at the bathing pool. The wife always leaves the husband. That's just to give some context about what these swan maidens typically are.

52:25 So we have a woman who is trying to be basically trapped by a man in human form and she says no fuck you, I'm a swan, I'm going to go be free with my swan lady friends. So this is kind of reverse, right? Because these are humans who are stuck as Swans, as least as far as we know. As what we've been told, swan is not their preferred form in Germanic mythology.

52:43 These women are typically valkyries. Would be really fucking cool. These are like the remaining Valkyries, right? So what we know about the Valkyries, I didn't write this quote down, but basically what we know is that they had this huge battle. A lot of most of them died The ones who did not die are said to have died from shame. But we don't know we don't really know their history. We had this quote from Gwen the Valkyrie history and training were mostly oral.

53:10 So any accounts we have or through whatever passing historians or philosophers or tradespeople wrote down, Merrill got it into her head years ago to begin compiling all of it into one volume, their history, their training techniques. 2 interesting things there, right? One that tells me we can't really trust the history of the Valkyries that we've been told because it's mostly oral, not written down to why the fuck is Merrill researching the Valkyries?

53:33 Merrill is researching 26 dimensions and the Valkyries. Why? What are these things have to do with each other, right? Like very interesting range of subjects that Merrill is researching. Directly after Gwen is explaining Merrill's research on 26 realms, she says thank the Cauldron, she's writing a comprehensive history of the Valkyries, which is the first time that we are introduced to the Valkyries.

54:00 And that's also when we are told that they are effectively wiped out and explained that they let themselves die from Shane. And that quote is a clan of female warriors from another territory. They were better fighters than the Illyrians. Even the Valkyrie name was just a title though they weren't a race like the Illyrians.

54:16 They hailed from every type of fae, usually recruited from birth or early childhood. They had three, the stages of training, Novice, Blade and finally Valkyrie. To become one was the highest honor in their land. Their territory is gone now it's subsumed into others and the Valkyries are gone. And the Valkyries are gone too.

54:31 Asks. Yes, Wind side Valkyries existed for Millennium, but the war the 1500 years ago wiped out most of them and the few survivors were elderly enough to quickly fade into old age and die afterwards from the shame. Legend claims they let themselves die rather than face the shame of their lost battle and surviving when their sisters had not. Yeah, pretty bleak.

54:52 Pretty fucking bleak. Bleak. And also, why does Merrill care? Why does Merrill care if Merrill is being influenced by Coach J if the wind whispering to Merrill hair is white as snow? Merrill is Coach J. Is Coach J directing this research because he has the Valkyries trapped as swan maidens? I think that would be very interesting.

55:12 I don't know what how others like her fits with Vasa unless it's just that they're like her because they're trapped by Coach J too. I don't know. Yeah, the like her. I haven't put my finger Anya unless. Unless it's just being a warrior. Yeah, it could be. It could be like nothing. It could be like very, very little to die. It could, right?

55:30 Like it could be nothing. Could be something classic. But like could mean that these are humans with magic could mean these are Valkyrie. I have a couple more or Fay though. The Valkyrie or Fay that's not even human. Yeah, if we're going with Swati maiden mythology a little more typically these women, the swan maidens, are the result of a marriage between a mortal woman and a fairy king. So are the swan maidens half FA or partly fae? Or do they have fae bloodlines, which we've kind of talked about with the possibility of Vasa Vasa being the descendant of that ancient fait warrior.

56:06 And that would point to these are women who have magic, right? Because we have recent Farah having this conversation in Aqua War chapter 20. Fae RA is asking what happened to half breeds because there were half breeds between Faye and humans says it did not go well for half breeds. He said for a moment most were offsprings of unwanted unions.

56:24 Most usually chose to stay with their human mothers, their human families. At best, they were outcast and pariah. It did not end well. Reese also says these are typically the humans who had access to magic. So like, these are like, you know, unwanted by society has coached you just been kind of picking them off and being like, hey, well, I I need I need people with magic for whatever reason, if that is what this is about. And turning them into Swans.

56:48 There's one more story about Coach J and the swan maidens in Russia. There was a story published in 1833 called The Tale of Czar Brende. Sorry Dasha, I know I said that wrong. That involves crochet the SAR. The Tsar is forced to promise his son to crochet, and when the sun reaches the shores of Crochet's lake, he sees 30 grey ducks in it.

57:10 In this story, the ducks are Crochet's daughters. Are the Swans Crochet's daughters? Is Vasa Crochet's daughter. I really hate that. Really hope it's not that. So in conclusion, shins, humans with magic, fae humans, O'shea's, Cochea's, daughters or valkyries. I'd love it if it were the valkyries. That would be so good.

57:29 Yeah. Didn't we like a long time ago have like a far far off theory that Nesta was cache offspring? Yeah, yeah, I know that we did because someone commented about it, but I can't remember what the theory was. I think it was just death, death power related. I think it was about Nesta just being very different from.

57:49 Yeah, right. And somehow Papa Archron is able to negotiate with this death, this death Lord for Vasa, which seems wild, like temporary freedom. Yeah. And Nasta could could have been the bargaining chip for that. Right. Yeah, yeah. Which is still interesting, still an open question. Like what the heck?

58:13 Maybe we'll get answers. Yeah, that was a value to crochet. Yeah, that is still such a good question. Why is FASA allowed to be free temporarily? Well, I mean, a lot of times, I mean, I might be butchering the mythology, but a lot of times I think what I found in the mythology was that the man who ends up killing Crochet is a son of a merchant or a Prince of a merchant. So like, maybe it was something like he was like, I know how to kill you, like something like that. I don't know.

58:39 Yeah. There's also just a lot of people turning into birds in Russian folklore in general. Yeah, Russia. What's up with this bird thing? I don't know. I really like. I would love. I think the one I would love the most is if it were somehow the remaining Valkyrie. I would love that. It would tie in nicely.

58:56 It would tie in pretty nicely. Yeah. I mean I would hate it for them, sucks for them, but it. Would hate for the story, yeah or weren't. I'm like, I did not prep this part and so I could be totally butchering the memory of it. Wasn't the this is going to be really embarrassing if I'm wrong because I've read this book probably piercing all of it together probably 5 plus Times Now. Wasn't the woman that Cassian hooked up with Valkyrie somehow? Yeah.

59:23 He used to date a Valkyrie, but she died. Yes, he dated A Valkyrie who died. She died in like the war though. Like the war, right? Yeah, I think, yeah. Yeah, we were. The 1500 years ago was the one that wiped all of them out. So that was when his lover died. I'm wondering if, like, whatever wipes them out was related to crochet.

59:41 So maybe, maybe it's not even the remaining ones that are his. What if the ones that died that died are his? Didn't really die. Yeah. Yeah. And Cassian's ex is now a swan. Like, NASA's gonna have a run. In which I would actually love Jealous Nesta. I think a Jealous Nesta moment would be actually just what the doctor ordered for a guitar sake. Yeah.

1:00:01 Yeah. I don't know. That'd be really interesting. I would love it if it were the Valkyries, too. I think that'd be great. That's my vote, Sarah, if you're listening once again, Sarah, if you listen to this podcast. All right, anything else on that one? OK, it is time for our mass first section. So if you have not read all of Throne of Glass and all of Crescent City, we suggest that you leave you free will so you don't have to, but we strongly suggest that you leave because you will be spoiled.

1:00:25 We are about to start talking about spoilers for all of Throne of Glass and all of Crescent City. We've heard that you like this warning. You might be running to find your phone to turn off the podcast. So we are giving you warning 32. We are now talking about spoilers for all of their best. Comment ever. That was the best comment.

1:00:44 I am now inevitably always going to picture somebody out there frantically running to try and find out the room like Siri. Pause. So good. Yes, for our listeners, we got a comment from a listener on one of our Spotify episodes. They said I love how long the mass versus spoiler section is because I run across the room to turn it off as soon as you guys start talking.

1:01:09 So we keep it long. We understand sometimes your phones in a different room, sometimes you don't know where it is. We don't want to spoil anything for you. Yeah, and sometimes also when I am listening to podcasts, sometimes I do zone out for like a few sentences. So I would hate if like suddenly. But I hate spoiler territory because I listen to podcasts in the shower.

1:01:29 So what I hate is when a podcast starts talking about something that I don't want to be spoiled for and I'm in the shower and I'm given like no warning and I'm like, and I have, I'm just like, fuck, now I'm spoiled. But yeah. So anyway, we will keep doing that. We will keep it up, all right. This is probably going to be our shortest mass verse. Well, I don't.

1:01:50 Know it is one question. It is one question plus Cosmos. It's a big question to talk. About It's a big question, yeah. But we are, as always, going to start with corrections, omissions, social media shout outs. Abby, do you have any cousins for the class? One and it's once again an omission and it's kind of just an out there omission. You may remember, you may not because what the listeners don't know is that we had an entire power outage between the master section and the actor sections.

1:02:16 So it started recording this two hours ago. You may remember that I described Vasa as Let me find it, Grash, Young with a foul burn, a Fowler mouth, cultish, fierce and untamed. She has flame in her eyes. She has a lilting accent. She is a queen, but her Kingdom is no longer hers. I'm put this out right now.

1:02:37 If you did not know I was talking about Vasa, who would you think I was talking about? Alan Ash. River Galifinian. Alan motherfucking ash driver Galifinia. So was Alan the fae warrior who trapped Crochet? Is Vasa her descendant? I do not know. I do not know, but Vasa is so alien coded I don't know. Just leaving that there.

1:03:01 Just putting that out there. Yeah, we got the fire, we got the personality, we got the queen without her Kingdom. Like it's it's adding up, guys. I don't know. We haven't gotten a lot of page time with Vasa. We don't really know what she's like. I don't know. And while Aylan is blonde, Brandon was a redhead. We know there's redheaded jeans in this line. Yeah, I mean the flames.

1:03:23 The flames, the fucking. Yeah, well, I don't even, sorry, I shouldn't just say the flames and make that my explanation. Like Vasa has an affinity towards flames, whether it's just related to her curse with Cochet or otherwise. She is a redhead. But we also have an entire fucking cord of redheads with flames that are very much like Malas and Alien's and Brandon's flames.

1:03:50 Yeah. So I'm just putting that out there. I just wanted out there. We don't have enough to go off of. Just just when I was prepping this episode and I was reading about Foss, I was like, motherfucker, so. She's alien coded. She's alien coded. I agree. I have also an omission and it's it is a loose one. It is a question mark but it just made my brain tingle. So you have already read the quote again. It was hours ago, but not for you guys, that when Helian and a bunch of other people, I presume, took a look at the curse on Vasa, tried to break it, looked into it, the curse was woven into her very blood.

1:04:30 Yeah, There has only really been one form of blood magic, Blood level curses, blood level oaths that we have seen in this series. We're going to get into it in our next question a little bit maybe. I don't know, at least I am. But I'm wondering, is there something related to blood oath magic that is going on between these women and crochet? That is what makes this so.

1:04:58 Unbreakable, yeah, I had a note. I had a note. I said think more about blood curses and the mass verse. And I never did it. I never did it. So I'm glad that you did. Well, I don't know. Like, I don't know, there's too much more to think about, but I think it gives us a little bit of a kernel of hope because they have been broken, right? They've been broken.

1:05:15 They've been broken. Fenris has done it. Of course. He almost died so somebody else has to fill it, but it certainly made my brain tickle a little bit and it would explain why nobody has been able to unweave it. Because it is literally in her blood. Does not magic. Well, I don't know if it's fair to say that it is valid magic necessarily, because Aylin does give.

1:05:41 Oh, you're right. You're right. You're right. You're right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And Fenris and. And Fenris. Yeah, and even wait, Morgan. No. She does give it to working. Right. She makes him. Yeah. She makes. She doesn't trust him. I don't trust him. Yeah. Protect Harrison. Drink my blood. OK, so fun.

1:06:00 I love this universe. All right, all right. I already shouted out spirits, mythology, legends, folklore, but I'm just going to do it again because they do some great episodes on random Slavic mythological figures that that we need to know things about. So go listen to the Cachet episode I. Found it shockingly hard to find information on Slavic, Russian, Eastern European mythology as we're doing this season. Like outside of Wikipedia and Wikipedia has some stuff, but like the Wikipedia page on Coche is surprisingly short. I don't know.

1:06:30 Where and you have to go to all of the sources and that seems together. This one, this episode was just a story. They do a great job. They do a little bit of a summary of the character and then like a myth that the character has participated in. But the episode and I won't like tell the whole story because then it spoils it for anybody who's going to go listen to the episode. But then the story that they told was about. I think you've brought it up or brought up the character before. On our Shriek episode, the character was Yvonne and. He the Prince, the merchant Prince. The merchant Prince Yvonne and he in one tale had a run in with Cachet and Baba Yaga in one story. Yeah, yeah.

1:07:12 Which was fun. It was a good. And so then like the they summarized, they basically did like a mini summary of Cachet, the Deathless and Baba Yaga, but the focus was Cachet. I should mention here, I meant to mention this at the at the beginning of our episode because I was just about to plug our Shrieka episode.

1:07:27 This is our cachet episode. We have done, if you this is somehow your first episode, we have done a bone car episode. We have done a street episode. And especially with what we're about to talk about is going to lean very heavily on those two episodes. So if you have not listened to those two episodes, I highly recommend pausing, going to listen to those episodes and then coming back here because we are about to tackle the big fucking question and I don't know if we have answers to it. Yeah.

1:07:50 And I will say I'm also going to lean happily on those episodes for the references. Otherwise we'd be repeating ourselves and great length. Yeah, I agree. So maybe if you haven't done that. Yeah. Pause. Come back. We'll be here. We'll be here. That's the fun of the Internet. And yes, permanent records. Yes.

1:08:11 Let's discuss. What are the deaf gods? We have previewed this question in every death God episode. We're talking about it now. We'll see where we end up. Yes. Yeah. Let's discuss. So the deaf gods, sometimes referred to as old gods that we have met so far have been the Bone Carver, Strega Cache. Those three are siblings.

1:08:33 And then Lanthus, seemingly unrelated to the three of them though, and I'm confirmed by the three of them as well. Right, So only Cassian says that Lanthus is a death God. So I'm not really convinced necessarily that Lanthus is a death God. I'm also not really convinced that a death God is anything at all, to be honest with you.

1:08:54 I think death gods are a term that is used by people in Prythian who need a word for something that's not. I think that might be the case. I think that might be the case, yeah. So that's, I mean, I know that sounds like a cop out answer. That's not the end of my answer. I'm like, let's talk about each of them and what they might be because obviously there are similarities and potentially links to other species that we know, races that we know.

1:09:20 But I will say that that is kind of where I am leaning is Prythian doesn't have the name for these things, and so they're calling them death gods. And the Bone Carver Shriegen cache are related. And so I'm like, OK, yeah, you can be one race of something, sure. But Lanthus, what are you? What are you?

1:09:38 I'm not sure that you're the same to be honest. I'm, I'm not sure about any of them being the same, if I'm being honest, but yeah, let's. Talk about it. Yeah. So let's do a little synopsis on what we know of of each of them. So the bone Carver. This is exactly how I did my notes. I love this. And we're using the term illusionist. I think that's my word.

1:10:00 I hope we're cool with using it. Illusionist portrays himself as different things to different people at the same time. Whether that thing is something they desire, something they fear, kind of remains to be seen. Seems dependent on the person. Maybe a shifter? I'm in the camp. Illusionist. We have no idea what he looks like.

1:10:16 We have no idea what his true form is. We've got no clue. He may be able to read minds, we don't really know. He can hear the wind, he has this death wind and can drain bodies to husks. So he is pretty powerful and when released he can basically he can take a physical form. So maybe it is fair to say that he is also a shifter. He takes the form of an Illyrian warrior when he is freed and can can fight like one, but can also do much more than that and can drain bodies to husks.

1:10:47 This is obviously giving. It's giving Valg, but it's also giving much more than Valk, in my opinion. Valk very much have Damati tendencies. They can send visions, yeah, They can drain bodies to husks. But being in his presence doesn't make you feel like you're dying. And so he doesn't seem like the valve that we have met at least. I think to be fair, being in Maeve's presence doesn't make people feel like they're dying either. Yeah, and I would add, if I can add one more thing here, if he can see the future.

1:11:22 The only character, well, we have the Oracle in Crescent City, but the only humanoid type character we have that has seen the future is Maeve, right? She knew that Alan was coming. Right. Yeah, so and that Alan and Rowan would be mates. Yeah, yeah. Maybe I'm over exaggerating with that being the only one.

1:11:39 There's various oracles, but like that's the most prominent. Yeah, yeah. So the bone Carver pretty heavily leaning Valk in my view. That's a little synopsis of the bone Carver. Let's keep going. Strega is a life drinker, drinks life. We did not witness it with our own eyes, but we know that she comes out of battle with a bloody mouth, so we can assume that is taken pretty literally. Probably.

1:12:07 She relies on eating people to remain beautiful. She Sorry, eating people is not Canon. She drinks. She has found a way to drink life to remain it's. Heavily implied that she eats. Heavily implied that she is eating people she weaves. She turns human bodies into fiber and weaves them into balloon, which I guess is a power.

1:12:29 She does bleed black, so we see her bleed. We don't see the bone Carver bleed. She bleeds black. So that is valgi. She had a bunch of mirrors at one point. Also pretty valgi can also drain bodies to husks or seems to drain bodies to husks. She does this alongside the bone Carver. So to me like the two are conflated a little bit in that ability.

1:12:48 They're doing this side by side in the battle with hybrid battle against Tyburn. She has when she's not drinking enough life has these kind of black rotting eyes and stumps for teeth and she does like kind of age and defecate depending on how much life she's eaten. So she does decay when she's not, when she's not sustaining herself properly.

1:13:10 So that's Striga. I also think Striga leans pretty heavily bound. Your thoughts? She certainly bleeds black. She certainly does. And I know I talked about this in our Striga episode, but the Vaspera Striga parallels are so fucking strong. Looks like Vesperus, yeah. I have like 5 quotes here and they are like almost word for word like the same right?

1:13:33 So the first quote, well not the first quote we get from Vesperus, but quote from Vesperus when she is talking to Bryce. I am your God, I am your master. Do you not know me? That's what Vesperus says. Striga to the king of Highburn. You may bow king as it was once done. We talked about this in the Striga episode. Like yeah, same fucking attitude, same idea. Like I'm the boss here.

1:13:53 You better bow down bitch. When Vesperus is climbing out of her coffin, the quote is Bryce twisted to the coffin in time to see the Aseri slowly climb out like a hatching spider. When Shriega is chasing after Farah, the quote is the Weaver came closer, brick crumbling under her hands. She climb up like a spider, like I was a family in her web.

1:14:14 So now we have spider imagery for both of them. When Vesperus is talking about her imprisonment, and this I think is really interesting, she says. Vesperus glowered. Thea knew that for my kind, this sort of punishment would be far worse than death. To be confined yet live to neither, to neither breathe nor eat nor drink, but to be left in half slumber, starving that gleam in her eyes. It wasn't solely rage, it was madness. We've talked about.

1:14:39 We have quotes with the Euro Burrows of Striga being seemingly mad. Striga is confined yet alive, and she can only eat what kind of comes to her right like she can't. She can't feed and she is withering, she is decaying, which is exactly what's happening to Vesperus. The quote we have for Shriga is how those ancient Faith feared and worshipped them.

1:15:00 Had I been braver, I might have bided my time, waited for their power to fade for that long ago Faith warrior to trick Shriga into diminishing her power and becoming confined again. That word confined to the middle. So we have confined and diminished power that Shriga seems to be suffering because she's stuck in the middle and as far as we know, no first light under her cottage.

1:15:21 You know like just throwing that out there when Vesperous bleeds. Vesperous is red mouth open in joy and triumph, but no sound came out only black blood Strega bleeding bone crunch and she roared black blood spray right like we I'm got 4 fucking parallels here between Vesperous and Strega and I was listening to our Strega episode back this morning.

1:15:41 We went into a lot of we lend into depth about this question about why Strega seems to age, but the bone Carver doesn't. The bone Carver is over a core of first leg. The bone Carver could be siphoning off the first leg, right? Like he could be totally fucking fine in the prison, but Strega doesn't have it.

1:15:59 So like, I don't fucking know. Like it's so hysteria. It's so hysteria, but like, I don't know. I don't. When I think we said in the stream episode too, I think I said Striga is the first being that has made me doubt that the Asteria and the Valgar different. Because she seems. Because she seems like both, like both.

1:16:20 I know. It's actually kind of made me doubt whether Vesperous is is a steri. It's a steri. I mean this is the other option right? That vespers is somehow Valk but we have 1 Val queen and that's made. So that means vespers has to be made. Yeah, or Vesperous is not a queen. Or Vespers is not a queen, Yeah. But like, Vesperous and Erawan have the same scenario. Yeah, they're the same.

1:16:40 No other Esteri is sitting in a sarcophagus somewhere able to be sustained, but of Algus, and he was written first. Sorry I. I just have I like if that's versus Valg, we have to rethink what fucking starborn or are maybe we don't the starborn or just the death maidens. That's that is what they I mean, I think that's what they are anyway. Right, but like, just a story.

1:17:02 Or the Valgar. Just a story. I don't know. Let's keep, let's keep talking through them. Keep going. Let's. Keep. Going OK, but yeah, Striga for me started breaking things because yes, she looks like Vesperous. And by the way, Vesperous looks like all of the Valgi people, all of the Valgi people. So like, are the Valg choosing?

1:17:23 Because by the way, Valg means choice. I don't know that we said this on this podcast. I didn't know that. Valg means choice. I think it's Norwegian. Yeah, yeah, Norwegian. Yeah, Valg means choice. So are the valg choosing to look like an asteri or are they just? I mean, the Asteri get to choose how they look too, right? Ridgelis gets to choose how he looks, right? Yeah, an.

1:17:46 Asteri mean star I. Don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. For those who are not watching, our hands are in the air, kind of like that Persian cat. We're doing that. It's like. It's a monkey. I thought it was a Persian cat. It's a monkey. It's the what the fuck, monkey, I think.

1:18:02 Hold on. It's a Persian cat room guardian. I'm 90% sure. Yeah, don't. I just googled what the fuck monkey got the hold on. Persian cat Room Guardian. That's not a monkey, Google. What the fuck, monkey? I believe that it's going to come up, but this is a Persian cat, guys. You need to comment whether you think that's me. I have never seen a cat that looks like. Is a monkey or a Persian cat OK?

1:18:32 Anyways, we don't know whether Shreya is a stereo or Valk but but I think the the difference, the difference that I always anchored on is the Valk consume fear and the Osteria just consume life and power. Right. I mean, there's a. Lot of differences like like the well, are we talking about a stereo versus Valk or are we talking about Strega like what's Treega?

1:18:53 I mean, I think we should, I think we need to anchor on Strega be. So we can't answer this today. Yeah. Shriega is consuming life, so that is a steri and that is where it breaks down for me because everything else about her looks valk so I don't know I. Also have this quote about Shriega assuming that Hell and Valk are the same, which I I'm pretty sure they are. So the quote is She dashed for the flames as if she'd put them out with those flawless white hands, her mouth of rotted teeth open and screaming like there was nothing but black. Hell inside her, right?

1:19:24 So yeah, a lot of people don't believe that, but I'm still, I think I'm still there. A couple, like pretty, pretty convincing quotes. I don't know if I wrote them down, but there were two things where I was like, Oh yeah, it's definitely the same thing, all right. Lanthus is a beautiful blonde, so we're departing already.

1:19:46 We're departing Has black eyes is when he's not in his real form, non corporeal so he can take the form of mist, storms, whatever until he's slashed by and at our axiom until he's slashed by the sword that Nesta has made and he rode in the Wild hunt. Which would make him, if we believe the legends to be true, and a Steri Warrior.

1:20:12 He was trapped by an Ashwood mirror. So Ashwood for some reason can trap him when it lines a mirror. He's also a liar. Saying I rode in the Wild Hunt might not hold actually that much weight, but he did say that he rode in the Wild Hunt. So that would imply that he is in the Steri Warrior and he does bleed black as well.

1:20:35 He does bleed black. He died from beheading. He died from beheading. Yes he had his head chopped off so he is also giving valg slash. Hell. He looks like our friends from hell. He has black eyes. He bled black. He's tied to mirrors. I don't know if that counts. He also, in the vision he sent Nesta is wearing the crown.

1:20:55 So wearing the crown, he can wield the trove too. Right, so and is guarded by the hounds from the Hewn City as well. And those are his scary hounds. For sure, yeah, so also mix of Valg and a Steri. Maybe he'll depending on what you subscribe to. And then cachet. I mean, we've been talking about him the whole episode, so I don't we don't need to necessarily rehash all his powers, but physically he seems to be a shapeshifter. We don't we haven't seen his form because he is, as previously noted, trapped at the bottom of a fucking lake. But he appears as a shadow and shifts into what seems to be a tall male.

1:21:32 He's got kind of slender skeletal hands, skeletal looking hands. So where I'm going I'll give a hypothesis. These are seeming Valgy, but they also clearly have adjacencies to be Asteri. One thought that I had is related to the Asteris former conquering efforts, conquering of hell and how they treated the demons and beings of hell. Whether you believe it's Valgar connected to hell or not, I think the concept of this can still apply. And that concept that I want to talk about is the black crowns. So in House of Flame and Shadow, the black crown is mentioned a couple times, actually many times. I didn't really realize how many times they taunted Hunt with this information until I went

1:22:12 back and read it. And I was like wow, you guys are kind of Dicks for bringing this up so many times and not telling him what it actually does. But Adis says the Black crown in chapter 8, the Black crown once again circling your brow, is not a new torment from the Asteria. It has existed for millennia.

1:22:30 And then later, much later in chapter 59, Thanos says the Black Crowns were collars in hell. Thanatos answered darkly. His powerful body seemed primed to leap across that pit to attack and monitors every breath. Spells crafted by the Asteria to enslave us. They were binding. 1 The Asteria adapted in their next war upon Midgard.

1:22:49 You seemed surprised to see one on me the first time we met, my son talking to Aidas. But before Aidas could begin, Apollyon answered. Because the Princess of Hell cannot be contained by Black Crowns, the Asteri learned that it was their downfall. As you were made by Hell's Princess, it should not be able to hold you.

1:23:04 So the Black Crown is an Asteri spell that has existed for millennia, serving as a way to enslave other races. But it didn't work on everyone. Given we know that the Valg came from some world, like some world, they have a home world. We learned this in Throne of Glass. Potentially the Asteri conquered them at one point as well and they were warriors of theirs. If you believe that they were.

1:23:27 If you believe that Hell and the Valk were the same, we know that they were right because there were callers for the demons of hell that were confirmed right? Like he just confirms them for this. So even if they're not exactly a Steri, there could be pets or like leftover creatures that are like remnants of a Steri warriors or even crossbred Asteri that were left on Prythian and almost like emulate them in behavior in like mode of survival.

1:23:59 That could explain why there are are both Valgor hell like tendencies, but also Asteri tendencies because we know that the Asteri rained on Prythian and we know that the Asteri also conquered other races and had them as their armies. Yeah. Could these be like a Steri Valg hybrids or just Asteri Warriors that were enlisted and left there? And is that what they are?

1:24:25 It's just like we're so confused because they are these like bastardized creatures. Yeah, I think it could be something like that. We know there are warring factions in all of these worlds and in the Val homeworld, hell and a Steri homeworld, we're told there are warring factions, right. So I think that that is going to play some piece in this. Whether those three are the warring factions in fact, and and they're all from the same home world, I don't know. By the way, the quote, I just want to bring this up real quick because I think it kind of matters. I'm going to find it.

1:24:58 The quote quote for why I kind of think that the Valg are definitely hell is from House of Flame and Shadow Chapter 25 when Bryce is talking to Vesperus and she's telling Vesperus that you can be defeated a Poly on 8U. The quote is 8. Vesperus is amusement banked. Bryce smiled slowly. They call him the Star eater, he ate Sirius, I have him on standby waiting to come eat you too.

1:25:27 You live. Vesperus said. I wish I could show you the empty throne Ridgelis still keeps for Sirius. It's sort of sweet. What manner of creature is this? Apollyon And this is really important. Bryce says. We call them demons, but you probably know them by some other name. Your kind tried to invade their world, Hell, it didn't can go well for you.

1:25:47 So I think that is a clue from Sarah. We call them demons, but you know them by some other name that these are the Valk, I'm like 99% sure. And then the other, the other thing I had on this and I actually do get into this in the answering this question is when Bryce and Hunt go to hell, they take a black boat to the Temple of Chaos. And the quote is the black boat that Adis LED Bryce and Hunt into was a cross between the one that had brought them into a violin and the ones that carried bodies to the Bone Quarter. But in lieu of a stag's head, it was a stag skull at the prow, greenish flame dancing in its eyes as it sailed through The Cave.

1:26:23 The eerie green light illuminated Black Rock carved into pillars and buildings, walkways and temples. When Aylan gets to Rift Hold at the beginning of Throne of Glass, she notices that there is an eerie green glow coming from the Glass castle, coming from basically anywhere that the Valgar we have this eerie green light.

1:26:41 So I'm like pretty convinced on this that they're the same. I don't know if that helps answer this question, but I had. So let's compare the home planets of the deaf gods, the Val, Gasteria, and Hell. As you guys know what we just went through, I think Valcom world and Hell are the same. So what we have from the Bone Carver.

1:26:58 The Carver folded his legs beneath his small frame. Where we come from, I do not believe it is now anything more than dust drifting across a plane. There is no home to return to, not one that I desire. So we have dust drifting across a plane. Not much to go off of. What we know about the Valcom planet, This is Tower of Dawn in chapter 49 from 1 of the Spiders long ago. The Spider said softly in that beautiful voice. In another world, another lifetime, there existed a land of dark and cold and wind, ruled by three kings, masters of shadow and pain.

1:27:30 Brothers. The world had not always been that way, had not been born that way. But they waged a mighty war, a war to end all wars. And those 3 kings conquered it, turned it into a wasteland. So dust drifting across the plain wasteland, right? A paradise for those who had dwelled in darkness for 1000 years. They ruled equal in power.

1:27:49 Their sons and daughters spread throughout the land to ensure their continued dominion. Until a queen appeared. Her power. A new dark song in the world. Such wondrous things she could do with her power. Such horrible, wondrous things. So we're getting Maze origin story here. Hell, a dark, cold world with mighty creatures of night. They saw through our lures once warring factions. So we have the warring factions.

1:28:10 The royal armies of Hell united and marched against us. We were overwhelmed and abandoned their world, but they Dave Chase learned from our captured lieutenants how to slip between cracks in realms. We are told this happens after the Asteria have conquered Prythian, so it doesn't really make sense with our timeline that Hell would be world walkers before the Asteria got there. Which is the timeline we're talking about for the death Gods.

1:28:32 But we're just comparing planets right now. And then the Asteria planet, home planet we have. Vespers folded her hands in her lap. A planet that was once green, as this one is, and that wasn't good enough. We grew to populist. Wars broke out between the various beings on our world some of us saw the changes in the land beginning.

1:28:48 Rivers run dry, clouds so thick the sun could not Pierce them and left. Our brightest minds found ways to bend the fabric of the world's to travel between them. Wayfarers we called them world walkers. So you trash your planet and then went to feed off others. We had to find sustenance. Valgon Hell fit kind of better than Asteri in my opinion, because it's, I don't know.

1:29:08 I don't know, they all kind of fit. They all kind of fit. And one could make the argument that the Asteri home planet later turns into hell in the Valg home planet because Fesper says rivers run dry, clouds so thick the sun could not Pierce some. And we know Valg and Hell. Are worlds of darkness, right?

1:29:23 Well, the thing that keeps like fucking with my brain is that the Asteri keep sighting that their home world is gone. Yeah, but hell. And the valg. Still exists fine. And I mean, well, that kind of lines up with what the what the bone Carter saying. Yeah, yeah. Nothing more than dust drifting across the plane, Not no home to return to.

1:29:48 Yeah, and I have. Oh, I actually have a quote about the black grounds here. I forgot a little more on this and then I have an entirely different option. OK so just a little more on the hell hell stuff. So when we meet a Poly on a figure emerged from between the pillars of the temple and descended its front steps.

1:30:07 Golden haired golden skin. That's a Poly on Lanthus. A naked golden haired male stood before her who uses average height is golden skin sculpted with muscle. You already talked about this, but it's like. Very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very. Fucking similar, Thanatos says to Bryce.

1:30:21 Your Starlight smells fresher. Says I can smell it on your spirit. I am the Prince of Souls. Things are known to me. Your power has been touched by something new. The Carver smells the wind on Cassian and smells death on Pharah. And both Striga and the Carver smell each other on them, right? So we have that strong sense of smell.

1:30:40 And then I have the black crowns. I we have not mentioned this episode, the shadows, but we know that shadows are are again Hell and Val Hell and Val powers, right? But like O'Shea appears wreathed in shadows. And I just want to add one more thing with this because it's going to. I know people are to say you didn't talk about Parthos.

1:30:59 So let's talk about Parthos real quick. The quote we have for Parthos is from a dream that Bryce haves from Apollyon. He has brought her to Parthos in a dream or what she thinks is a dream. The reason I'm saying this is because the quote we get for this is she stood on a vast dusty plain before an Azure, cloudless sky. Distant dry mountain studded the horizon, but she was surrounded only by rock and sand and emptiness. She asked, trying to master her shaking. Where are we Parthos or what remains of it? The barren land seemed to stretch on forever. In the real world or in like dreamworld? He angled his head.

1:31:32 More animal than humanoid. Dreamworld or what you consider to be dreams. So Parthos is like the closest we get kind of description wise as to what the bone Carver said right? Like dust drifting across the plane. However it doesn't really fit timeline wise because we know the Esteri go to Midgard after they leave Prythian and the quotes we kind of have for what life they find on midguard was we found cities in midguards in Midguard carved by human hands. This world had been mostly populated by humans and only a handful of unusual creatures that had kept mostly to themselves.

1:32:08 It was a blank slate as far as worlds, as far as worlds went. Little native magic to fight the deadlands power. I don't think that if there were death gods in this world it wouldn't have been mentioned right? Like I I don't think it's Midguard. It doesn't work with the timeline. I know it works with the description, but I don't think it's part of this. There's a couple comments from Bryce about how like few gods there are, yeah.

1:32:31 I want to throw in a totally different option here. Let's put aside Valg, Hell Esteri, forget it, forget it all because we didn't talk about Nesta, who is a deaf God. We are told that NASA is a deaf God, right? So I'm going to say my second option here is that the deaf gods, I'm actually thinking of an option A and option B.

1:32:48 Let's go with option A right now are beings that have been imbued with the powers of the gods from throne of class. They have some somehow gotten the powers of the gods from Throne of Glass. And the reason I'm saying that is because of NASA's exchange with Lanthus, right? So Lanthus says which death God are you?

1:33:03 Lanthus asked again. Whose fire burned silver in your gaze? You know, whose fire she stalled? It is not possible. So we've already talked about this, right? We think that NASA has Deanna's power. I'm like 99% sure on that, right? But NASA is also sorry Lanthus in this sentence is A establishing that she is a death God, but B acting who's?

1:33:23 Which ones power do you have? Right? Whose power do you have? And then he recognizes that it's Deanna's power. I want to talk about Lorkin. We haven't talked about Lorkin at all, but the Bone Carver has this death wind. And Lorkin's power is also described as a death wind. And Lorkin is said to be touched by Hellas, right? So the quotes we get for the bone Carver on the battlefield, the Bone Carver fought near Briaxis. No weapons to be seen beyond a scimitar of ivory of bone. And that male's hands, he swept it before himself as if two were threshing wheat.

1:33:55 Soldiers dropped dead before it with barely a blow laid upon them. Even that Faye body of his could not contain that lethal power. Stifle it. What we get from Morgan, he calls his power a death run. And the quotes we kind of get for that is I was born a bastard on the streets of Dornell, ran wild with the other discarded children until I realized my talents were different.

1:34:15 Maeve noticed too. I can kill faster. I can sense when death is near. I think my magic is death given to me by Hellas himself. That's prior storms Chapter 41 Farah talking about Nesta's magic and Akawar. The flame in her eyes was not of her usual sort. I take it? Lucian's head nodded. No, it spoke to nothing in my own I arsenal that was ice, so cold it burned ice and yet fluid like flame or flame made of ice.

1:34:43 I think it's death. I said quietly. Right so now both of them, we have both of them saying my power is death when Nesta is saving Farah. We have this again confirmed by NASA. She reached in towards the power that had made the deathless monsters tremble and wicked kings fall to their knees, but she didn't know how to use it. Death flowed through her veins, yet she did not have the knowledge to master it.

1:35:05 So we have Lorkhan, blessed by Hellas. We have Nesta who has Deanna's power. Both of them are saying that their power is death. We have these death gods. We have the Bone Carver with a very similar death wind type power. Striga we talked about at length having a lot of ties seeming to the three faced goddess who is also a throne of glass God, right? Like we don't have direct power across from her. We don't get as much of it that, but they both have looms. They both have moon imagery associated with them. They both have multiple faces.

1:35:37 Obviously Kochet, we don't know, but like, is it not any of these? Are we having trouble with the vogue and the Esteri and the hell, because it's not any of these things. We're looking in the wrong place. We need to be looking at the throne of glass gods instead. Who might be Esteri, Who might be Esteri? We don't know, but.

1:35:52 I'm I'm officially at the point where I don't think there's. So I think it's totally impossible that they. Are I'm definitely wavering on it, but then I do not know how fucking Deanna's power ended up in the cauldron for Nesta to take. But that would be a different conversation for a different time.

1:36:06 Probably our next episode. OK. Next episode. Yeah, I like it. I like the idea that they could have been imbued by the throne of Glass gods somehow. Yeah. Or that they're just like other. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, any kind of still works with the hell idea, right? Because hellas seems obvious, right? Like, I don't know. And then Deanna, we have all this like icy cold. Imagery with her when the gods like got shoved through this RIP in the.

1:36:33 World to hell where? Yeah, we also have this is just kind of fun. The only, the only time we have silver fire mentioned, I think I've read this quote before, but the only time we have silver fire mentioned in Crescent City is the astronomer praying to Luna after they've accidentally come into contact with Thanatos through the not scrying, but scrying basically, and through the what do they fucking call Mystics? The prayer is Luna guard me, your bow bright against the darkness, your arrows silver like fire shooting into hell. So now we have like Luna guarding them against hell. And Bryce tells us she partially said there are gods in hell. The quote we have for that is hell is another world, another planet.

1:37:17 Ada said so months ago. I mean the demons worship different gods than we do, but what happens when the world's overlap when demons come here to their gods come with them. So we have gods in hell, seemingly. Who are they? Who are or are they? Are they the throne of Glass gods when they went through the fucking portal to hell? OK, so we've done a lot of talking. I'm no clear to an answer, sorry guys. We have some good ideas.

1:37:40 We have some good ideas, good hypothesis of evidence. For all of them. We do not have an answer. I do not know what the death gods are. I think I feel pretty good saying that the death gods are not one specific thing. I'm willing. I think that yeah, this feels like his own thing. Lanthus feels very Valk no matter what we're.

1:37:58 Going to put Lanthus over there. Yeah, Lanthus is over there. He was an Asteri warrior that was probably Dog because they were commanded by the Asteri. Yeah, I feel good about that. Cool. All right, OK, so no answers. Fine. All right. Pre cog corner. Abby, what is your pre cog corner theory? This.

1:38:22 Week. All right, I want to talk about the Viper Queen. There is a snake Princess in Russian mythology and surprise, surprise involves crochet. So I got this all from Wikipedia guys. Sorry if it's wrong. All I have is in Russian mythology, crochet turns the Princess who does not want to marry him into a snake. We have in Crescent City, the Viper Queen. We are told that she's a snake shifter, but she seems to be kind of more than that, right?

1:38:48 So her blood, we know it thralls people we don't have. Well, does Maeve's blood do that? Her blood gets people high, right? Like it's like it's different than what Maeve does, slightly different than the blood of we don't have any other shifters who can do that and she can actually talk to snakes.

1:39:06 So we know that because when Bryce is hunting for a meal, she goes to the Viper queen because she said I knew the Viper cream would get all her like reptilian friends out in the marshes to find him right. So she can actually talk to the animals, which no other shifters can do as far as we know, as far as I know. Is she this is pre cock right?

1:39:24 I don't have anything to go off here, but is she not actually a snake? Was she cursed by Cochet? Because we know he cursed FASA. We, you know, he cursed the swan maidens to shift them into other animals. Vasa is sometimes a human, sometimes not. Is the Viper queen one of these things? She also has statues of Luna and Shithona.

1:39:43 Kathona. Sorry, I still know how to say that on her desk. And she's constantly moving them around. Right. So if I'm right and it's the throne of Glass gods that haven't viewed their power, and the throne of Glass gods seem to be the Crescent City gods for the most part, there's some overlaps like does this point to the origins of her powers, of Crochet's powers, etcetera. That's it.

1:40:08 That's my pre crack. It's not a crazy, it's not a big one. I like it. I like the idea of crochet being a cross world item. What if Crochet were Jessica? That would be wild. That would be wild, right? Isn't Jessica the only other person we know who's like, turning people into animals? Oh yeah, Jessica can do it. I forgot about that Jessica Tamlin crochet. Yeah.

1:40:33 Yeah, interesting. Well, we never get to confirm that Jessica can do it. Yeah. Jessica's just seems to be empty threats. Yeah, very interesting. OK, what's yours? Mine is kind of an omission, but it's so crazy that it became a precog theory because like, I don't know that I believe that this is necessarily the case. So we talked about how in our prison episode, there are Faye in the walls of the prison, seemingly like there's faces and and that the centuries, the guards of the prison are, quote, shadows of thought and an ancient spell. And we learn from Nesta's experience with the harp that the harp seems to want to.

1:41:14 You said this with respect to cachet's soul separation wants to fuse Nesta with the rock in the prison, right. And we were ruminating on like, could this have happened to the fae Nesta? Nesta calls it out, right? She's like, I think somebody very bad used this last and, and actually fused the fae and the loss of the prison basically.

1:41:36 And we were talking about how this was a possibility, but it didn't really make sense, right? Because these fae were like pissed off that they were being left there. They were left in a place they didn't want to be left in. And so you couldn't really expect them to want to guard the prison. That was the part that didn't make sense right? Like why would you so willingly guard the prisons? But we what we ignored was that the harp could do this right? Like the harp can do that.

1:41:58 So how did how did the prison guards come to be? Probably that way. And we didn't really get a great explanation for how Celine's life ended. But she did say verbatim to you in this very stone, I leave the inheritance and the burden that my own mother passed down to me. What if Celine just did this to her own spirit?

1:42:19 Yeah. What if she is in the prison? Like what if she's in the walls of the prison? So that when Bryce hears the island, do you think she's hearing Celine? I think she might be hearing Celine. I have almost nothing to go off. Of it's so interesting because there's so much about prissy and being alive, right? Like Ramiel specifically seeming to breathe. Is that someone's soul?

1:42:42 You in this very stone and she just let the harp was just on the floor. Yeah. She never left the prison. I mean, that makes sense, right? It reads like a deathbed confession. Yeah, yeah. Like that was her. She she like really left her soul there, which could mean it could mean that's what the bone Carver is.

1:43:00 It doesn't have to mean that that's what the bone Carver is, but it could. I don't think she needs that needs to be what the bone Carver is, but it certainly would make sense for the bone Carver knowing everything he seems to know, right And. He's talking to the stone. The stone. He's talking to the stone.

1:43:20 Yeah, he's talking to Celine. That's how he knows everything he knows about Vesperith. Does Bryce hear a Valin? I can't remember if she hears A Valin the way she hears the prison. I don't remember whether she hears it after. I don't think she hears it before she restores its power. Yeah, very interesting.

1:43:37 I really like it. Yeah. It feels like Celine's death is interesting and we don't really know what happened yet. Yeah, I mean, the last thing she does is like imprison everybody there and there's just a harp on the floor. I think she uses the word. I should really find it, but I think she said uses the word like faded or something like that.

1:43:57 Like fucking collateral to the Gray Havens, yeah. Anyways, even if it's not Celine, I think what we missed or what I missed in that question is like the Harp can do that. So even if it wasn't those, Faye the Harp probably did that to whoever is guarding that prison and I think. We haven't done our harp episode. Yet, yeah, whoever the willing participant was, was probably Celine, because she's the only person who made that a prison. So when so, so, so Celine is the prison guard. What do you think Azrael meant when he said I'll go? The guards know, know what I am?

1:44:29 I mean, if Azrael is part hell and Celine is actually a child of the shadows. The shadows. The fucking shadows. Yeah. Yeah. OK. That works. That works. Fuck yeah, Ron. Love it. So fingers crossed that Celine is in the walls of the prison. And that we can have a nice little chat with her. That we could have a chat. Yeah, a two way chat this time, yeah. OK, OK, what are you reading?

1:44:53 I'm reading The Will of the Many. It just got good. It was, it was slow going for like 200 pages and then like right around page 200 it really picked up and I'm really enjoying it now. That's that's good. What are you reading? I am also reading it, but I'm not. Oh, you are? Yeah. Did you take a break between alchemized?

1:45:12 I didn't really end up taking a break. What ended up happening is I reread basically Part 1 of Alchemist as my like break. And then I watched Heated Rivalry in one day. And then that was kind of my break, was basically not reading and having a lot of work. And then I was like, I'd rather just read something good then like read a filler book. Yeah.

1:45:36 And all my options were read good book that that isn't the will of the many or just read the will of the many so. So we read the will of the many yes. So I will say I posted this on Instagram. I was where you were at the beginning. I was like, what is what is why is everyone raving about this book like this is kind of slow. It's not very.

1:45:58 I did not. It's not bad. It's not bad. The first Part 1 is basically a very in depth overview of an org chart is basically how I would describe it. Like it's basically just like this is our structure. You need to know it. Yeah, yeah. And then Part 2, it's really picking up. It's really picking up.

1:46:16 It's doing a good job. I'm very hooked at this point, so I think you'll like it. Nice. It basically becomes we basically go to a very, very intense version of Hogwarts or best guy. Even more intense than best guy, honestly. So that's good. Yeah, I'm into it. Yeah. Cool. Well, we are on social media, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube.

1:46:37 You can find us at Dragons in the Details pod. We have a website, dragonsinthedetails.com. We have a Discord server. Gets crazy up in there. Dragons in the Details is the server name and it's LinkedIn, all of the BIOS and the show notes, so you can find it there. If you can't just comment, we'll get you the link.

1:46:57 We know the Discord links can be kind of finicky sometimes and if you liked our episode, we would appreciate if you could comment something that you heard that you enjoyed. I'm trying to change up the way that I ask you to like, comment and subscribe wherever you listen to us. If you don't already, subscribe to whatever mode you listen on.

1:47:16 It would mean a lot if you did. We're a small podcast, but we are looking to grow. We are looking to grow. Yeah, One thing on the Discord, some of our amazing discorders have organized a bit of a book club on there. So what they are doing is reading the entire mass first this year, spaced out over like 9 months.

1:47:33 But they are reading it in publication order. So if you want to get in on that fun, the discussions are awesome. They're finding all these connections. If you like this podcast, you'll probably enjoy it. That is on our Discord, so that's a reason to join it. And shout out to LMNOP and Amy Lynn. Amy Lynn.

1:47:51 So shout out to you guys for planning that. There's a yeah, there's a channel, it's called Book Club and that is it's a mass verse where you read publication order. Publication order is super fun too because you get to see what was written close in time even if it's not same series which sheds a lot of light on different things that were written in close proximity.

1:48:12 Yeah, it wasn't like Akamaf written like very was a Kingdom of Asher empire storms. It was, I think it was Air Fire Maeve and Akamaf Reese or something like that that were written like literally right on top of each other. And I was like, these are the same fucking person. Come on, Sarah. Yeah.

1:48:30 So it's fun out there. That's all we got today. Love you. Bye. Love you. Bye.