ACOTAR: Elain Deep Dive - Exploring her Powers, Her Prophecies, and Her Mate Situation

0:17 I'm in like office mode right now. I know. You got to turn your braid off. How are you feeling, Kind? Of crappy, honestly. Yeah, same. But like, no congestion. I just have like, I think. Do you have lymph nodes back here? Yeah, yeah, they hurt. Whatever's back there, it doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel good. How are you feeling?

0:34 Well, I can You hear it in my voice. Listeners, we are, we are both sick. We are not together. We have not seen each other in weeks, but we are both. Sick. This is that time. This is so weird because it's like time travel. But guys, remember 2 weeks ago when COVID was like rampant? That's now we're there.

0:52 Yeah, yeah. When you hear this, we will have found out that COVID was going around again. I think Derek does think we that we have COVID, which like we might like I woke up covered in sweat this morning. Like just like it is going around so hot. Yeah, maybe it's COVID. I don't know. Wouldn't it be great? But.

1:08 One of our engineers, one of our engineers today, we all like bring an update to stand up and one of them was like, I got a negative COVID test today and we were like, how long have you been testing positive? He's like 2 weeks straight. It's. Like, Oh my God, and he's been coming to the office. No, no, virtual.

1:26 But he was just like, haven't been able to in good conscience go bop around in two weeks. It's like, Dang, that stinks. It's still out there, you know it's still out there. It's definitely out there, but anyway. Yeah, so now we're doing a very special recording. Drag us of the details after dark because Ronnie and I were both too sick to. Record yesterday, so it is after dark. It's.

1:50 Dark. That's why it's dark outside. I know, I don't even know if you can see my window is over here so I see the darkness and I look ghastly like Casper the friendly fucking ghost. I thought you were going to say ghostly when you started the words. I mean ghostly, ghastly, either one your. Your Victorian child era, it's OK.

2:12 Yes, OK. Tim Burton, Casper, whatever. Look, just tis the season, tis the. Season, it's true, we are currently two days away from October, which is very exciting. I texted you and I told you that Derek and I have started watching a new show and I had to explain to him what a shadow daddy was. Yes, that must have been a great conversation.

2:36 It's not a good show. It's a really bad show. We're hate watching it at this point, so I won't say what it is, but there is a shadow daddy character in it. And he was like, what the fuck is going on? What are mates? And I was like, you're going to want to sit down. I have a PowerPoint. Presentation What show has. Made.

2:54 It's so OK, I'll just out it because whatever, it's not gonna. It's already over. It's called A Discovery of Witches. I've seen ads for this. Well, it ended after three seasons. It's based on a book. Apparently the book was really good. I thought the show. So Matthew Goode, who I love, he's a fantastic actor. He plays a vampire.

3:13 I'm like, yeah, what could possibly go wrong here? I'm like, so sold on this premise. We have Matthew Goode, we have a vampire. It's primarily set in Oxford, and then they travel to France. Great. The sets are beautiful. They go to Venice a bunch. The story is literally so bad. Like, I cannot even fucking tell you.

3:31 There was somehow there was somehow a sex scene in this show where no one took their clothes off. And I'm fairly certain we're meant to believe that the woman achieved orgasm. And I was like, is this no? Like no one took their clothes off? As in, we didn't see it or the clothes remained on. Like there were filming like a sex scene but all the clothes were on and then like at one point.

3:55 Definition not as making sense. I don't, I don't know how to describe this fucking hot mess to you like it is. It was so bad. Like it was so bad. So it's a hate wash at this point. If anyone out there enjoys A Discovery of Witches, I'm sorry. Let me know if it gets better. I personally think it's fucking hot garbage, but it's fun fun. We'll keep watching it because it's the season. It's the.

4:19 Season. It is witchy season. Speaking of shows that are cancelled, there's one that I'm still not over and I'm curious whether you've seen it or I would actually be shocked if none of our listeners have watched the show and liked it. Have you ever watched the Oai? Haven't watched it, I've certainly heard of it and like I know people are either love it or hate it.

4:41 Love it. I'm so sad that that show did not get renewed. I haven't watched it, but I remember at the time hearing all about it. I know. Unless they suck. Unless they're hate watch. Thing I don't think this show got cancelled. I think it just there were three books and there were three seasons. So I think they're like, OK, we've reached our end.

5:01 I don't know. OK, by definition, not cancelled. I know just now that there's things like The Summer I Turned Pretty where they, like, finish the three seasons, which are based on the three books, and then they're like, we're coming out with a movie. Yeah. I'm like, we could have just all been done here. It would have been fine.

5:18 No, I like, I will watch it. So anyways, hi, I'm Ronnie. I'm Abby. And this is Dragons in the Details, where we pick apart our favorite fantasy series over the course of an undetermined number of episodes. We're in a new season here. We are focused on A Court of Thorns and Roses, the series, not the book by Sarah J Mass Disclaimer These episodes will contain spoilers for the entire Accord of Thorns and Roses series, not just book one.

5:46 We've had some folks who were confused the whole series. We will also have a section of this episode that has spoilers for the entire Mass verse that includes Crescent City and Throne of Glass. We will announce them ahead of time. We keep it to the end and that way everybody who's only read A Court of Thorns and Roses can enjoy as much of the podcast as they can.

6:06 And if you do not want to get spoiled, you can peace out and we love you anyways. But we also encourage you to read the mass verse. It's great, really good. Mass first plug. Mass First plug Sergey Mass Just like 1 post on Instagram. It's not going to happen. It's not going to happen unless we blow up.

6:24 It's OK. I'm waiting for the day that I see her on the street. Anyways, another disclaimer this podcast. What are you going to do? What are you going to do? What do you see her on the street? Are you going to attack her? What are you going to say? I'm definitely not going to attack her. I'm not crazy.

6:37 And also, I feel like when you live in New York, you basically have to abide by this social law that's like, you kind of just have to treat famous people normally because there's too many of them. So realistically, I probably wouldn't say anything. Well, that's what I'm saying. You have to have some game plan. You know, OK, me and Sarah J Maas, we're in a coffee shop. I would make a joke about something on the menu or behind the glass so that we are chit chatting for like 7 seconds and then I might confess to recognizing her and I think that's as far as I would go.

7:14 I. Think that's her. I think that's her. I told you I had that dream about Rebecca Yaros for our listeners. I had a dream that Rebecca Yaros was working in a bookstore and I was in the bookstore and I was like, Oh my God, I'm a huge fan. We have a podcast. Would you like come on the podcast and talk to us? And she just looked at me and went no and walked away. Which, honestly, is kind of Rebecca's that. Is what she would do.

7:37 Yeah, that's what she would do. I do think. I don't know, I haven't actually watched that much interview content with Sarah J Maas. I think she's like a little bit less feisty in interviews than Rebecca, but. Anyway, I love Rebecca's energy, it's great. But anyway. We love them both, obviously, and maybe I would consider confessing to recognizing one of them. This is what, 8 years in Manhattan? 10 years, I've lived here a long time. I don't know whatever.

8:02 Anyways, did I say this podcast is rated R? This podcast is rated R. Do not listen to it with your children. Each week we dive into a specific topic in depth. This week we are digging into the night courts most talented and possibly only gardener, Elaine Archeron. We come with receipts. We'll have quotes to back up any theories so you can follow along if you're skeptical. Abby Announcements.

8:24 Right, so for I just realized I was looking at my Nesta outline because I always said, wait, why is Elaine our favorite lady of death? That doesn't make any sense. That was like, I'm on Nesta. All right, announcements. I mean, depending who you ask. All right, so you might have noticed in season 2 that we have deep dive music.

8:41 Our deep dive music is by Schwoedley SCHWOODLEY. Also, I'm just going to plug this right now because we plug this at the end of the episode, but not everyone gets the end of the episode. If you like our content, please like, comment, subscribe, especially on YouTube. It helps us out a ton, helps us get noticed.

8:58 We've mentioned this before, we are small, but we want to and yeah, that's my, that's our self promotion plug, which we don't usually do, but we're going to do it today. Great. Last announcement after how many months of podcasting? 6 months of podcasting, countless episodes, two seasons. We don't know.

9:14 We have a website so that is dragging in thedetails.com. It's a beautiful website, so you'll be able to see all our episodes there. Who knows, at some point we might start a blog, we might write down all these crazy theories that we have and include quotes, kind of like our own personal Reddit. I'm also thinking about getting on Reddit. Guys, if you want us to be on Reddit, let me know because I know a lot of you were there and a lot of you kind of Duke theories there.

9:36 So let us know if you'd be interested in US starting our own little Reddit post. All right. I think that's all our announcements. OK, corrections, omissions, social media shoutouts. Abby, do you have any to share with the class? Got nothing. I have a fun one. I rarely get a Qatar only social media shoutouts, so I love to throw them in when they're fun. OK, this is a fun fan theory.

10:01 It's not very long, but I think this is the last episode for Archeron coverage, and this is an Archeron theory, so I figured we'd talk about this one. This is a theory from Caro dot Guiza. She wrote my wildest theory. I'm going to paraphrase a little bit here to make it acceptable for spoken word. She abbreviates in a bunch of stuff. My wildest theory is that Mama Archron is one of the sisters the Weaver sings about.

10:26 What if Koche is not in a lake but in a mill dam and he is the Miller the song refers to? Mama Archron and her sister went to go see their fathers the King's ship and pushed her over, where they're perhaps competing over Papa Archron's attention. Did they meet him at the docks or while sailing? Also, what instrument does Tamlin play?

10:44 A fiddle similar to a violin? And he is the one to ask Farrah if her mother ever told her about them. I think this is fun. We didn't dive into the Weaver's song. I think we should after reading it because I obviously did write down the song as a result of the theory. All I was going. To say is I think we'll do a death Gods episode, so I think that's when we'll cover the Weaver song.

11:04 I love this theory purely purely because it is. It is reasonable. It uses quotes, it ties things together. I love this theory. I don't have a reaction on whether or not I think it's right, but like, I love it passes my sniff test. Let's fucking go. In case anyone didn't remember the Weaver song it goes, there were two sisters.

11:25 They went playing to see their father's ships come sailing. And when they came unto the sea, brim, the elder did push the younger in. Sometimes she sank, and sometimes she swam till her corpse came to the Miller's dam. But what did he do with her breastbone? He made him a veal to play on. What he do with her finger so small? He made pegs to his veal with all. And what did he do with her nose? Ridge unto his veal He made a bridge. What did he do with her veins so blue? He made strings to his wheel thereto. What did he do with her eyes so bright on his wheel? He set at first light.

12:02 What did he do with her tongue so rough? Twas the new till, and it spoke enough. Then bespake the trouble. Sing. Yonder is my father the King. Then bespake the second string. Yonder sits my mother the queen. Then bespake the strings all three. Yonder is my sister that drowned me. You know, I really like this actually, because it kind of combines the bone Carver and Striga, right? So we have the violin being made of bones, but then we have the strings being made of entrails, I guess. I don't know.

12:32 So it like combines the two of them and Striga. Koche and the Bone Carver are siblings, right? So it's like, could Koche, we don't know anything about him except he has this iron box, right? But like, what's in the iron box? Is there a violin in the iron box? I don't know, but like, is he the combination of their two hobbies and pastimes? Like he kind of is he kind of the summation of that? I love this.

12:56 This is great. I fucking love this. And we'll talk more about it, but like there are two sisters. Then there's this Miller. This Miller seems to be a coche like figure. But then is the sister? Like did Strega have a sister? Is she dead? Are these sisters 2 totally separate people? Tamlin does play a fiddle. I don't know.

13:13 I think it's fun. I think it's a fun way to kick off the episode. There's a cousin, right? So in theory there has to be a sibling. Sorry, there is a Nesta says. They have a cousin. Yes, Mama Archron has to be a cousin. OK, Mama. Archron has a cousin. That's it. All right, I don't know. Very intriguing. Love it.

13:30 Could be fun. Great job, Caro Guisa. Thank you, Caro Guisa. Okay, no more cosms. I don't have any for this. Okay, all right. Our fun question this week. I've been excited for him because we've been talking about doing it for a couple episodes now, but now it's really our last opportunity. Okay, Abby. Fuck Mary, Kill Ferra, Nesta and Elaine. I didn't prep anything because I wanted it to be off the cuff and go with how I'm really feeling in my heart of hearts. Like who am I in this scenario?

13:59 You are you. I'm hearing it as me. You can't like choose APOV. Otherwise the answer is obvious. No, I know, I know, I know. I because OK, Nesta is my favorite one, right? Like as a woman, I love Nesta. On the other hand, do I think being married to Nesta would be very fun? No, I do not. I think we're gonna. End up no, I do not.

14:21 And Elaine, I don't know anything about her in bed, but Phaera seems pretty fun in bed, so against my better judgement, I'm going to say kill Nesta. Fuck. Farrah. Mario Lee. OK, that's kind of fun. Yeah, not what I expected to say, but. Yeah, you're making me think so. I had assumed so. Nesta is also my favorite.

14:44 But I also agree that being married to Nesta would be worse than being married to myself, which I already know. I so definitely not marrying Nesta. I think I'm going to go marry Farrah. Fuck Nesta. Kill Elaine. And I think that's, I think I would also do that. Because Nesta's also just like, really hot, I know.

15:06 Is the thing. Yeah, you're right, you're right, you're right. I mean so with. Elaine. Like Elaine, it's stunning this is discussed often. They're all. Hot. We just don't know what Elaine's like in bed. We haven't gotten like that perspective. You're right. I would actually probably. Like I know that I like Farrah, Nesta and I personally and we'll get into this and not decided on Elaine like I don't know. There's not much to be decided on yet, but yeah, yeah, all right.

15:30 I regretted my answer as soon as I said it, but I'm going to stick with it. It's my answer and I'm sticking with it. OK, OK, good stuff. All right. Shall we deep dive? We shall. OK, Abby. And what are Elaine's powers? All right, I love this one because it's actually not a very long list. So on our on our previous episodes, this has taken like I think half an hour. I don't think this will take very long. All right, so Elaine is called a seer. Azrael says she's a seer.

16:06 She is called a seer. However, as far as I can tell, and I'm happy to chat more about this, she only ever makes 1 prediction about the future and that prediction does not come true. Even though she's called a seer, I think it's less of future seeing and more of like present seeing. Like she's more like prescient about the world around her. She knows what's happening in the current time. Obviously she can see things that are not in her line of sight, for lack of a better way to put it. But like, so she's aware of what is happening currently, but I'm not so sold on the idea that she can tell the future. Do you want to react to that right off the bat? Kind of, yeah.

16:39 I think because I had this note too. Like, she can see things that will happen and we'll talk about the prophecies, but like, some of them, like the Ravens. True, the queen coming true, but I feel like there's two genres of seers in literature and it's like seers who see the absolute future that like no matter what, you are seeing the thing that will actually happen. And whatever you do, whatever anyone does, like that's just you're seeing what it's going to be. And then there are seers who see the future as of this moment, and there are things that can happen that change the path. Yeah, and I would agree.

17:14 That's the kind of seer that she is. But I agree with you, she's also seeing things that are and have it happened, so I do not think that it is necessarily just the future. Right, right. It's not just the future. The Ravens, yes, she says the Ravens are coming, but in my mind she's saying the Ravens are coming like they're on their way, like they are coming.

17:33 This is currently happening. And then she says the Queen might. Come. She says the Queen might come. Not a definite outcome there, right? So she makes fun. Prediction with a definite outcome has not come true in the camp. It's not going to come true. But like she's O for one future predictions that are hard for future predictions in my mind. And that's OK because you know who else is like O for like 6 on?

17:55 This is the surreal. So we'll get into it in this episode. But like if someone tells you something's going to happen in these books, be rest assured it shall not happen. So far, yeah. So far. All right, So I will talk about this a little more, right? So she sees the future? Not really. She sees the past and the present. So let's talk about that.

18:14 So she knows about Vas's curse, but that happened in the past, right? So that is something that happened in the past. The quote is the 6th queen is alive as real. Ask, calm and study the voice of the High Lord spymaster who had broken enemies and charmed allies. Lane cocked her head as if listening to some inner voice. Yes, they sold her to some darkness, to some sorcerer Lord. She shook her head.

18:36 I can never see him what he is. There is an Onyx box that he possesses, more vital than anything safe for them. The girls he keeps other girls other so like her, but she by day she is one for him, by night, human again. So this is a combination of things that happened in the past and things that are happening now.

18:52 It is not the future, right? And she's not telling the future. She's just saying this is what's happening. Other quotes about the present. So this is again about Coach J. There's a lake deep in the continent, I think hidden amongst the mountains and ancient forests. Elaine's throat bobbed. He keeps them all at the lake. Other women like her.

19:08 Yes and no. Their feathers are white as snow. They glide across the water while she rages through the skies above it. So again, that is the present. And then also, she kind of like cries, not scrying the way that this series uses Scrys, but she finds the current location of the serial in Akawa, right?

19:25 So her finger lifted, hovering over the map, the courts. Slowly, she set it down there. She breathed. It's going there now. So again, present and past, but not future other powers. Well, I had a note in here. Do you want to talk about this? I don't know if we want to talk about it. Do you think she we talked about last week the idea that potentially the cauldron is just enhancing gifts that these women already have?

19:50 Like do you think it's possible that Elaine was always a little bit of a seer? Like she always had this a little bit. And the only reason I say this is because she buys the paint for Nesta to. To paint her drawers. That obviously becomes like so important in this story and like that is the first connection to Reese. There's also a moment Hyburn, and this might be a reach. We might want to cut this, I don't know. But in the palace in Hyburn, before she goes into the cauldron, she warns Farah about Tamlin before he starts running for her.

20:24 Right. So the quote for that is Cassian scream. Cassian scream as his wings shredded under towns of pure magic was the most horrific sound I'd ever heard. More search for him, but too late. Reese was moving in an instant as if he'd lunch for the king. But power hit us again and again. Reese slammed to his knees.

20:40 My sisters were shrieking over their gags, but Elaine's cry awarding awarding to to my right now exposed, Hamlin ran for me to grab me at last. So like, maybe she's seeing what's about to happen, maybe not, Might be nothing. I mean, I don't know. I don't think it's completely without merit, only because there's something up with Nesta.

21:00 And if you assume that they're all truly sisters, blood relatives, mother and father, then something's in their blood. Something's in their blood. I agree, Yeah. Yeah. And we talked about what that might be. You know, we've talked about the idea of the of the witches in this world. And witches certainly have it within their ability to kind of like see the future in general in fantasy.

21:20 So could be that. We don't know. I don't think we're stamping that one, but just an idea to play with other powers that Elaine has. I'm curious if you wrote this down. She seems to have exceptionally good hearing. And this might be part of her power. Her her like seer power, right? But yes, I did.

21:36 Yes, she hears. She hears Lucian's heartbeat right through the stone and then she asks when Feyra offers to take her to the townhouse to garden. She says will I hear the earthworms writhing through the soil or the stretching of roots? Will the bird of fire come to sit in the trees and watch me? So again, could be the seer thing, but I don't know. Maybe she just has like really good fucking hearing. Last thing.

21:58 And you inspired this for me with your Nesta analysis last week. Similar to Nesta, everyone who meets her loves her like immediately but not in like the sexy way that everyone loves Nesta like in a like I genuinely. Love this. Person yeah, like so Farrah literally says my sister Elaine can convince anyone to do anything with a few smiles.

22:18 So like that's she's talking about the mortal Queens, right? She's talking about a very high stakes political situation and she's like no Elaine, Elaine's going to be great here. Elaine's got it. Also, Reese does a complete 180 on her over the course of these this series right so in miss and Fury, he says he's talking about Nesta and Elaine.

22:37 We owe them our gratitude for letting us use this house. He said quietly. But it will be a long while yet before I can look at your sisters without wanting to roar at them right. So that's Miss and Fury chapter 24. By the beginning of ACA war, he's completely on team Elaine, right, So Farah says you can still barely talk to Nesta yet Elaine you talk to nicely.

22:57 Elaine is Elaine and then fair even points out the hypocrisy of this right. She says if you blame 1, you have to blame the other. No, I don't. Elaine is Elaine, he repeated. So like she just like has this like allure, like everyone loves her. Again, not in the way that everyone wants to like, marry Nesta, but there's something about these Archer on sisters, right? That like, everyone is drawn to them. Yep.

23:17 Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah. And fair is like you need to hold them to the same standard. And Reese is like but I do not, who is usually a very logical being. I'm high Lord, I could do whatever the fuck I. Want. Yeah, Right. Yeah, I agree. Both of Farrah's sisters have this like, really appealing quality, which is so interesting because they were ignored for their entire impoverished period.

23:41 Yes. Yeah, yeah, it's true. I had one other note here. I just wanted to point it out. There's a moment that I think is really interesting when Elaine is still human that I don't think we give her enough credit for. So she's talking to Farrah about going to the continent to see like the tulips, which sounds very lovely. And she says like Nesta is too scared to make the crossing. Basically like Nesta is nervous about the crossing, but like, I still want to go.

24:06 And I think that's a really like, interesting telling moment because we don't think of Elaine as very brief, right? Like when she turns face, she's like kind of like a whimpering mess. But like when she was human, she kind of had more bravery than Nesta did. And Feyre even says that she has this, like, quiet strength because she was able to find joy when they were living in the shack that, like, Pharah and Nesta couldn't find.

24:27 So I think we just, I don't felt like I didn't give her enough credit for that. Yeah. But it's important, you know. We definitely didn't give her enough credit. I agree. Also, it's like a pretty inconsistent thing that that happened because Nesta tells Pharaoh when she's going back to Prithee and she's like, I might just go see what's out there.

24:47 Like I might just go make it for myself, which does not to me sound like somebody who would be too afraid to make a crossing to go see some tulips. Well, maybe it's like, you know, Nesta feels like she can be herself with Elaine, but she has to like, put on this front for Farrah. I don't know. Yeah, maybe.

25:03 I don't know. Yeah, I have a couple other notes. Great. Elaine's powers, you covered almost all of it. But I do think it's worth pointing out that you mentioned everyone loves Elaine, right? So does the Cauldron. The Cauldron loves Elaine. That to me is is a type of power like the Cauldron wants to please Elaine purrs in her presence and the Cauldron hates Nesta.

25:28 So it's doesn't mean like the Cauldron doesn't have to love anybody that they've made, but it specifically loves Elaine. She also can't see certain things. She can't see certain things around Koche, like why why Vasa was captured, She can't see. She says it's all missed in shadow. She also can't see Highburn's army. Azrael couldn't find it.

25:50 Elaine couldn't see that army. Her seeing did not work on that. Yeah. And that's really interesting because it is the cauldron that is being used to shield that army, and she is made from the cauldron, but she still can't see it, right? And then I have one theory about her power, and it's like a very loose theory.

26:08 It's definitely not concrete, objectively not concrete, but the things that she can't see are Coche, Highburn, all of these bad things. She also, to your point on having a power before she became Faye, it seems like she might have some sort of gift of life that predates her being thrown into the cauldron. She has always had this tendency towards gardening and making things grow and the things that she can hear really well are worms in the earth, heartbeats like all of these kind of deep nature rooted things.

26:45 So does she have some gift of life or affinity towards the earth and these things that she can't see are death or shadow or different? Interesting. I don't know. I have some theories on that that we'll get to later in the episode, the things that she can't see, but I think that is interesting. Cool. I'm excited.

27:03 Yeah. And the only other note that I had. Again, not really a power, but she wields truth teller. Yeah, we'll talk about that. Don't you worry. Yeah, so the only other person we've seen wielded in the series. Well, besides Nesta, she puts it in. Elaine puts it in hybrids neck. Yeah. They both do it. Yeah, they do it together.

27:20 They do it together and Nesta finishes the job. All right, next. All right question. Ronnie, does Elaine belong in the Night Court or do we think there's another? Court she'd be better suited for. All right, so let's just do a quick little refresher of courts. Just to start us off here, right?

27:36 There are 4 seasonal courts and three solar courts, 7 courts in total. A lot of sevens in the series. As we know, the seasonal courts stay in one season consistently. So there's spring, which is ruled by Tamlin, that's very much floral imagery, blooming roses, etcetera. There's summer that's ruled by Tarkin that has oceanic imagery, shells, things like that Beachy. There's the Autumn court that's ruled by Baron and that's where leaves imagery, autumn warm hues. And then there's the Winter Court which is ruled by Calius and the that imagery is like icy and wolves. I literally just have icy wolves under Winter Court and Christmas.

28:18 They're supposed to have an amazing Christmas party. A. Lot of lot of holiday imagery. Then we have 3 solar courts and those solar quartz experience all seasons. So there's dawn, which has like rising sun imagery but has all seasons. Again, there's a day and there's night. Now by this logic you would probably be expecting a dusk.

28:39 We'll get there. So these these courts have all seasons, not just one perpetual season that's held there by magic. So why would Elaine belong in the Night Court? Because we do have some clear examples of her really placing herself in the Night Court, right? When Reese and Farah go on to the Court of Nightmares, both sisters, Nesta and Elaine, trail behind them wearing black. And this is noted to be a silent indicator that they were part of the royal family.

29:08 So Elaine and Nesta, whether they intend to or not, very much are presented as the royal family of the Night Court. Their sister is High Lady. In that same moment, we learned that Elaine insisted that she was a member of this court when concerned about whether or not she should go. She was like, I am a member of this court.

29:24 I am going again. Elaine might be punchier than we think she is. I don't know. She's also best friends with Nuala and Sarah Dwin, which is very cute. Yeah, and she tends to like her own little garden at the townhouse. And so she has friendships and roots at this point in the night court. She seems comfortable there.

29:44 She bakes her bread. She celebrates her holidays. She's having a good time. Why not the night court? And would there be a court that's better? So Cassian notes in that same scene when they're in the Court of Nightmares that Elaine, there's no nice way to say this. Like looks for worst in nightcore black, he said verbatim. Elaine in black was ridiculous.

30:06 Yeah, she was beautiful, but the color of her long sleeved, modest gown leeched the brightness from her face. It wore her rather than the other way around. And he knew the cruelty of the Hewn City troubled her, but she hadn't hesitated to come. When Farah had offered to let her remain at home, Elaine had squared her shoulders, said she was part of this court, yada yada yada.

30:25 He never once in the two years had found Elaine to be plain but wearing black. No matter how much she claimed to be part of this court, it sucked the life from her. So we're getting signals in a court of silver flames pretty close to what we hope is Elaine's story that she might not be best suited for the night Court.

30:45 So then what court? I think you guys probably all know where we're going here. I want to talk about Elaine's floral imagery, right? She her drawer is flowers. She is floral, which is typically associated with spring. There's a whole bunch of examples of this. I'm going to list as many as I can think of. You should pile on if I don't cover any. The first being the drawers on the dresser right in their cottage in the human realm.

31:10 Farrah paints a drawer on the dresser for each of the sisters, and Elaine's was violets and roses around the knobs. She has this intense love for gardening, of course. She's described as a flower grower, A gentle heart. The spring court literally smells like Elaine's garden. When Farrah is in the Spring court, she recognizes the scent of hyacinth and she realizes it because it's how Elaine's small garden smells. She says Hyacinth, I realized if only from Elaine's small garden garden floated down the halls, carrying with it the pleasant chirping of a bunting.

31:44 So Farrah is literally associating the spring court with Elaine in her head. Nesta does it too. We'll get there. Spring is naturally Elaine favorite season because of how much she loves flowers. She says this many times, but one of the times is when she talks about these beautiful Tulip bulbs that came from the continent and father promised next spring he's going to take me to see them. She literally comes to life in spring. There's a quote, she had come alive here and her joy was infectious.

32:10 There wasn't a servant or gardener who didn't smile at her. And this is when she's at her family's estate tending to this beautiful garden. The gates to her mind look exactly like the gates to the spring court. The Spring court gates are described as a hedge bordered metal gate. So we have these iron gates that are in the Spring court.

32:28 Elaine's mental gates are described as solid iron covered in vines of flowers. Or it would have been. The blossoms were all sealed sleeping buds tucked into tangles of leaves and thorns. I love this one, especially because her mental gates are the gates to the Spring Court, but they've not bloomed. Yeah, they're there, but she's not fully bloomed in herself yet.

32:49 Yeah, she's having a tough time during this, so I get it. I had that note to their buds they're not bloomed. Yeah, she likes pinks and purples. Nesta literally said the Spring Court was made for her. So we've got both her sisters being in the Spring Court saying Elaine would love this place. Elaine, the Spring court had been made for someone like her. It's getting tough to not link Elaine to the Spring Court and province reactions to that before we go deeper. I mean, should we just catch the chase and talk about Elaine and Tamlin?

33:19 We can talk about Elaine and Tamlin. I have to get the stock off my lap. I need to have both feet on the ground. For this. I do want to say, I want to just call out before we get into this, that the reason I brought up the solar cords is her, her apparent mate in the series is from a solar cord, right? So there is still spring in the solar cords. Yeah, Lucian's not from Autumn.

33:41 Sorry. Yeah. So let's clarify. Lucian is thought to be the seventh son of Baron, but we know that he is actually potentially the only son of Helian. Yes, so there is still Spring in her apparent mates court, but it's getting tough to ignore the possible Tamlin connection from the Spring court. So you put everything I had.

34:05 I will add one thing, though, that I think is kind of an important thing that we kind of overlook when Farah is in the Spring Court. Her kind of biggest sign that she is stressed and that things are not OK is that she is underweight, right? And Alice notices that when she comes back from Night Court, she is no longer underweight, which is kind of Alice's sign that things are not as they seen.

34:27 Yeah. Pharaoh specifically points out that Elaine has filled in as she's been at Night Court. So the quote is Elaine slung the dishcloth over her slim shoulder, rolling her sleeves up to the elbow. Her skin had gained color these months, at least before the cold weather had set in. Her face had filled in, too.

34:45 So like, and we have a lot of that discussion kind of before she turns Faye, that like Elaine can kind of be anywhere, right? Elaine can find joy anywhere. Elaine was happy in the shack. She can be happy anywhere. So is it like the most natural fit? I don't know. But I think the fact that her best friends are fucking shadow race, it's like kind of a point in the direction that like she's happy and like things are OK. She has healing to do.

35:11 They all have healing to do. But like, yeah, I don't know. But we could talk about the Tamlin of it all. The Tamlin of it all I actually have I think a few ways that this could could work do we don't. Want it to. Work. Neither of us want it to work. But to be honest, and I feel OK admitting this, I don't know what I want for Elaine.

35:31 Honestly. I don't have a clear. I'm rooting for anything in my head here, to be honest, because the two real contenders for her right now, in my opinion, I want better things for both of them. Then I think this will all end up as whichever way. And let's just be clear, we're getting into pure speculation here.

35:50 We're getting into pure, right? This is just OK. Maybe we're not all right. I want to talk. Yeah. Let's talk about the possibilities. I don't really think, I don't think this happens, right. But. But let's talk about the different paths that could mean that Elaine ends up in spring. That's how I'm going to position this. Elaine could end up in the spring, right? I have already confessed on this podcast that I think Lucian could be Tamlin's heir.

36:12 I think that's possible. So maybe Tamlin doesn't make it and maybe Lucian does. And maybe Lucian is heir to Spring. Why do I think he's heir to Spring? Well, you should listen to the Lucian episode. But I think he's heir to Spring because he was able to stand in for Tamlin during Callum Mine. But I want to talk about the very popular theory online that Lucian at points in this series is actually Tamlin, and that Tamlin is is actually Lucian, and that Tamlin has used his shifting powers to swap their bodies.

36:41 This is all over the Internet. This is not original. I'm not claiming for it to be original. I have evidence for and evidence against written down here. We'll see how much it gets us. The first evidence for Tamlin being Lucian is Tamlin's wind power. So Reese thinks that Pharaoh's wind is from day court.

37:00 We see Tamlin wheeled wind in Aquar and dove into a few theories about where he could have gone, why it's a secret, but maybe it's just Lucian who is the son of the High Lord of Day. And that shield the the quote is in a court of Mr. Fury, Chapter 13. That shield I once made of hardened wind. Who did that come from? What might the others have given me? Is winnowing tide to any of you in particular? And Reese considered wind the date court likely. So Reese thinks it's from from Day and he's friends with Helian, so he would know.

37:31 So wait, so for this theory, you're saying that the Tamlin, yeah, we see in the war camp with the King of Highburn is actually Lucian? I recognize. He shifts into his beast form in that moment, Yes. I'm just building up the evidence, OK? We're going to come back, OK? Don't worry, OK, don't worry.

37:49 But it would right, like, explain some of Elaine's caginess when it comes to Lucian. She knows something is off because she's a seer, maybe even knows that who she's looking at is not who she's looking at and is so horribly upset about it because she knows, knows what he and Pharaoh went through and can't even bring herself to speak to him. I want to acknowledge that for Elaine, like she can get through anything.

38:12 Like you said, it's hard to make her really super closed off. Maybe she knows something's off. Maybe she recognizes this is Tamlin. He did all this shit to my sister. I warned her about him. What? About sense though, Like don't you think that Reese or Pharaoh would immediately recognize Tamlin sent? Maybe, but we don't know what happens when you shift someone. Maybe, maybe, maybe.

38:35 Again, maybe not. Lucian keeps in touch with Tamlin, though, and returns to Supreme Court decently often. So I think there's a possibility, right, that we should acknowledge that maybe it's sometimes Lucian and maybe sometimes it's not. I don't know, Elaine also says. I can hear your heartbeat through the stone.

38:52 There's only one person in the series who has been exposed to have a stone heart. Maybe Lucian does too. Maybe it's the stone of the House of Wind. But maybe it's Tamlin's heart of stone. And we know that she doesn't always see things in the future. We know she also sees things in the past, in the present.

39:06 Obviously you're saying that line refers specifically to when Tamlin had a heart of stone. Maybe. OK, I always took it as just. She can hear it through the stone in the House of. I have a lot of theories on this specific line that we'll get into when we talk, but I think there's clear evidence against this in that Farrah literally goes into Lucians mind and it's him.

39:27 Like he's thinking about Jasminda, he's thinking things about Elaine. He says that she's been forced upon him or he's forced upon her. I can't remember the exact language. Like she goes into his head. So unless you are 150% right about Tamlin being a fucking badass Damati, there's no way he could have pulled this off. Yeah, I don't think.

39:49 I don't think. I don't buy it. I just don't buy. It I don't buy it either, but I feel like I kind of feel like, and I don't feel this way often, that Sarah J Maas is fucking with us a bit on this one, honestly. Like Elaine being so clearly associated with spring and then all of this like stuff that we're kind of told could be Lucian, but it could be Tamlin and then Elaine seeing Lucian. Know what to do about him.

40:12 I think if she does this, it's going to be a Tamlin redemption arc scenario, right? It's going to be like, it's not going to be a mate tricking thing. It's not going to be like that. Like it's going to be that Tamlin does something that earns Elaine's forgiveness. But there have now been two times where Tamlin has been around where something terrible has happened to Elaine and he has done nothing. The first one when she went to the Cauldron and the second one where she was taken prisoner by the King of Highburn and he has done fuck nothing to help her.

40:45 And she literally says to Lucian, she says you were there when we were put into the cauldron. And he's like, I'm sorry. But like I just like she hasn't really forgiven him for that. I don't see a world in which she forgives Tamlin for that either. And this was going to be my nail in the coffin. Like there is no way that Feyra and Nesta would be at all cool with Elena and Nam with him.

41:07 Like it like it just like Nesta said, like Nesta almost like gets into into it with Tamel and over Pharaoh, right like. Yeah. This would be such a tough storyline to pull off for both. You would have the characters and the readers. I know, like redemption arc would have had to have started so long ago.

41:27 Yeah, I guess I just sound like this now. Guys, I'm sorry. I don't know. Do you want to get some tea or something? I just OK. I just think this would be so, so hard to pull off. I'm not saying she can't do it, but like, specifically Tamlin has done so many or been involved in so many bad things that have happened to Elaine that like, she as a character, I mean, I don't know, I don't write her, but like it presumably she as a character would not forget, you know, like, yeah, that's my thought on it. I don't know.

41:57 I don't want this to be true, so I don't know why I'm fighting. I'm just playing devil's advocate, OK? OK. Yeah, perhaps. The only thing that this could amount to is a really unhappy mating bond, which we haven't had yet. Like this would be tragic if this ended up being the case. And it doesn't necessarily mean that there needs to be a happy ending. It just means that Elaine is meant to be in spring. I still.

42:20 You're saying, you're saying if it turns out that Elaine is actually Tamlin's mate somehow through the Lucian Tamlin switching. But it's already an unhappy mating bond with Lucian, right? Like we already have it. I know. I just don't think it's happening, but that's me personally. I totally agree with all the spring imagery, but I think it's just that she is going to turn Night Court into like her own personal haven because that's what she does anywhere she goes.

42:45 She she makes it beautiful on her own. So she's like bringing her beauty, her joy to Night Court. You're totally right about the buds on her gates. Like she hasn't bloomed yet. Literally, she hasn't bloomed, but like, I think she's going to. I don't think Tamlett's going to be the one to do it though.

43:00 That's me personally. I hope you're right. I hope you're right. Yes. Yep. All right, OK, so let's dive into Elaine's prophecies. All right, so the first prophecy I wrote, these are three separate quotes, but I'm combining them into one here. I think it's actually 4 separate quotes. So these are all this is the the Vasa prophecy, right? That's the different points.

43:24 Well, tell me what the quotes are and. All right, so the quotes are I can hear the sea even at night, even in my dreams, the crashing sea and the screams of a bird made of fire. That's been Akawar Chapter 24. We talked about the last one. Will I hear the earthworms writhing through the soil or the stretching of the roots?

43:40 Will the bird of fire come to sit in the trees and watch me? That's number two. I can hear her crying. I gripped the bottom post of the banister who everyone thinks she's dead. Elaine kept walking, but she's not only different changed as I was who I push. So I think that's about Vasa. I put that in here.

43:58 It might not be, but we can talk about it. And then the last one is the queen might come, the one who was cursed, the queen with the feathers of flame. So those are the four quotes I had. So we know what this is right? We know, oh, that this is about Vasa coming to help them out at the end of ACA war with the King of Highburn, right? So she says, I can hear the sea.

44:20 That's kind of the first thing we get. Her father comes by ships, right? So it's not only about Vasa like it is about she's seeing like what is going to happen here. Her father comes back by sea, the bird of fire. That's Vasa. What's interesting here is assuming that that third quote I said is about Vasa, she says changed as I was right, Elaine was thrown into the cauldron, but Vasa was cursed by a deaf God. So if we take this literally changed as I was, that is once again pointing to this connection between the cauldron and the death gods, right?

44:51 If we are assuming changed as I was literally means it is the same magic. It is the same process and we are once again getting a link there. We don't have to get into that too much. And then I have this note here. You already talked about this, but she can see certain things about Basa, but not concrete things. So she says the Queen might, right? So all of this prophecy is like, not 100% sure. She's saying it might happen, but it might not. So couple options here, like is Koche somehow interfering with a clear vision here?

45:21 Because there's things she can and can't see about Koche, as as you discussed. Interesting to note here, the serial also says that he can't see the bone Carver, right? So is that kind of the same thing going on? Like Elaine can't see Coach J, Serial can't see the bone Carver. We'll get into that later in our mass first section. Or is the might here because she actually can't see the future? She can see the present as she can see options for the future, but like she can't actually say this is exactly what's going to happen.

45:53 I don't have, I don't know, I don't know the answer, but just kind of dissecting that one a little bit. Yeah, yeah. I mean, all of these things that she's saying are present tense, so I think she's she can maybe see paths, but everything she's describing is happening now and it makes her think that something might happen.

46:11 And that's still super powerful. Like that's still a crazy power. Yeah. That is kind of like what the Cauldron is able to do, where it's just like seeing everything in battle, like whatever it chooses to. Like she's basically like embodying in her mind and what Pharah experienced with the cauldron, except she's just doing it by herself, which is. Crazy.

46:28 Yeah, that's a great point. Well, also kind of what the cereal does, is it not? Potentially. Potentially. I had a few other notes. OK, keep going on those at Anna. It's a little bit less about Elaine, but just analyzing what these prophecies could actually mean. And so in the first few that you read, so I can hear the sea screams of a bird made of fire, she's seeing Vasa. Bird made a fire, she's also seeing the sea. And she's for some reason associating Vasa with the sea. So I want to talk about that.

46:57 Why Vasa's by the sea, I'm not sure. Koche's lake is deep in the continent, amidst mountains and forests. I think we're meant to link Vasa and Feyre's father. The Vasa in history with 1S was a very poorly structured Swedish warship that sank like 1300 meters into its maiden voyage. It was recovered in really amazing shape, like recovered basically whole and is the world's best preserved St. century ship.

47:26 It's now has its own museum in Stockholm and I have been there, which is why I knew. It's like I didn't know we were going on this tangent. Which is why I know that it exists. Maybe I'll insert a photo over the episode of me at the Vasa. But the Vasa is a ship that sank and that came almost in its pre-existing form, which sounds a lot like Farah's father ships that sank on the way to Bora.

47:52 I think this is a bit of a flashing light by Sarah J Maas, that Vasa and Farah's father have some sort of past or some sort of link just because of her name, I don't know. And the fact that we hear the sea. I just assumed this meant they were already on their way, like he had found her. It was happening.

48:09 They were on the ships, they were coming. Back but also totally be there. Yeah, could definitely be it. And then under the Queen. Can I say one more interesting thing about this quote real quick that I just realized Yes. So we're still on this first one, right? I can hear the sea even at night, even in my dreams, right?

48:26 I want to talk about that because that is, we've talked about this on this podcast before, but basically what she is doing is seeing the world through dreams, right? She's seeing assuming that if we are assuming that this is because that her father and Vasa have already met up and are on the way. She's seeing the world through dreams the way that Reese does, right?

48:45 Which I think is really interesting. She's obviously not a De Mahdi, but does she have a little bit of that power? Does she have something a kernel of that will set? I think that's an interesting idea. Hang on to that idea. We'll get back to that later. We'll get back to it, I'm sure. When you said the Queen might come, did you also include like the rest of that where it's like she's cursed by the cauldron?

49:06 The Queen with I. Just said yeah, the queen might come. The one who was cursed. The queen with the feathers of flame. OK, can I read a bit more of that quote? Possibly, yeah. OK, so this is where Azrael learns that she's a seer, right? Like this is this paragraph where Asriel figures out the six queen is alive.

49:23 You're a seer. You're actually like, the things that you're saying are not nonsense. They're very much happening and we should pay attention to them. And this is also where, tell me if you're going to get into this in a different one. But this is where Elaine says they sold her to some darkness, to some sorcerer Lord.

49:38 I can never see him what he is. There's an Onyx box. Box that he possesses more vital than anything safe for them. The girls he keeps other girls. Others so like her, but she by day, she is one formed by night. Human again, a bird of burning feathers. All them. Skipping ahead a little bit. Other women like her.

49:56 Yes and no. Their feathers are white as snow. They glide across the water while she rages through the skies above it. So these women who are trapped by Coach J are definitely Swans, in my opinion. Yeah, they are great horns on the lake. And do you know the plot of Swan Lake? Like at one point I did OK.

50:15 I don't know. It's a ballet by Tchaikovsky that tells the story of a Princess who was turned into a swan along with her companions by a sorcerer. The only way to free the Princess in Swan Lake is if someone who's never been in love before swears an oath of undying love and promises to marry her. That story is hypothesized to be loosely based on German folklore, and we know that Sarah J Maas, like many other fantasy writers, is no stranger to basing her plot lines off of folklore like Tam Lynn.

50:47 So it's not unrealistic to expect that there might be a similar condition to the curse being broken. Like, I think that's very possible that these curses might need to be broken by someone who's never been in love before swearing an oath of undying love and promising to marry her or something. For Vasa.

51:06 For Vasa and for her companions. And it's not going to be. Lucian not going to be Lucian because he's Ardurian. Yeah, right. Who hasn't? Been in love? Think Azrael's been in love, if that's what you're implying. I'm not implying anybody in particular, but I do. I think this is the plot of Swan Lake and that is the condition to get out of the curse in Swan Lake. In Swan Lake it does not end well, so I'm gonna leave that there too.

51:27 It doesn't end well in Swan Lake. That's very interesting. Can I talk about another theory? Yeah, keep going. OK, there's another theory that's not mine. It's originally from a Tumblr user named Harper Brynn from like a long time ago. I miss Tumblr honestly. That was like my original E girl era. So Harper Brynn made the connection that the Valkyrie who are figures from Norse mythology. They in in Norse mythology they guide the souls of the dead to Odin's Hall, are sometimes connected to Raven Swans or horses.

52:00 I'm not sure about this but I think it's interesting. As we all know in a court of silver flames we learn our female warriors basically who apparently all died. Could they have maybe not died? Could they be in coaches lake? I don't know, would be crazy. So fucking interesting. Would be crazy. I don't know, two other things about this specific prophecy, we'll call it.

52:23 It's not really a prophecy. It's just like, what's actually happening? You said these other women are so like her. So like her meaning Vasa. Vasa, Yeah. Does that mean they could be royalty too? We have such a big fucking world we're dealing with here. I don't know, Like, yes, like someone brought this up on our Discord, right where people were when we were talking about the Mama Archeron episode or the Arshad family episode. And Mama Arshad, like, wants Nesta to marry a Prince. She was like, what Princess?

52:50 Where are the Princess? Who what Princess are there are no Royals except for the human Queens. Yeah. So maybe. Or maybe they're her sisters. Is that possible? But like, I know there was something about the way that she inherited her throne that was like, she was new. Very interesting. I don't know.

53:07 I don't know, but interesting. Cool. The only other interesting thread on this particular piece was when Elaine is asked why was Vasa sold to the Sorcerer Lord. She says it was all missed in Shadow, and that is the exact language used to describe winnowing. And So what about winnowing is similar to how Cochet is able to hide this information from Sears?

53:28 Winnowing, we're told, is like Pocket realms, basically finding a thread in the continuum and moving through it. What about Koche gives him this ability to hide things using a similar power? I don't know. I have no idea, but let's talk about it. Not this episode cuz I'm not not for it. Let's talk about it. Yeah, okay, that's it.

53:51 Sorry. Okay, cool, All right, so 2nd prophecy. All right, so the second prophecy we have, I don't know if it's a second prophecy you had, was the second prophecy I had. What did you see? Azrael said, and I tried not to flinch as I found him at my other side, not having seen him move again. Lane paused halfway up the stairs. Slowly, she turned to look back at him. I saw young hands wither with age. I saw a box of Blackstone.

54:15 I saw a feather of fire land on snow and melt it. So the young hands wither with age. That's Brie Allen, right? But the reason why this is interesting and maybe an inconsistency is because this is cauldron power, right? Like the cauldron did this. Elaine couldn't see Highburn's army because the high because the cauldron was shielding it. But this, the cauldron kind of like lets her see. So maybe it is like, yes, the cauldron loves Elaine, but like Highburn was able to control the cauldrons. I don't really know.

54:42 The box of Blackstone. We know that Coach J has an iron box. We don't know what's in that iron box. We postulated it might be a violin at the beginning of this episode. It'd be fucking wild if it was a pilot. I don't think it's a pilot. Iron. I thought it was Onyx. Maybe it's Onyx. I don't know. I don't know.

54:58 I. Think it's Onyx because I wanted it to be iron and then I couldn't find anything saying that it was iron. All right, I don't know why I thought it was iron and that would make more sense because Onyx is a Blackstone, but iron is certainly not. Yeah, feather flyer land on snow and melt it. Obviously that seems like Vasa. But again again, these are all things that are currently happening or have happened.

55:18 This is not a future thing. Right. Like everything that she just talking about here has already happened or is currently happening through this prophecy. We don't, I don't think we get an answer for this. But after she says this, Azrael, the quote is. Azrael's Hazel eyes churned as he studied my sister, her tooth and body, and without a word, he winnowed away.

55:36 Moore watched the space where he'd been standing long after his He was gone. Where did he go? Like I don't know what it is about this prophecy that makes him leave like at no like I don't think we ever got a follow up on this. But if you have theories about where Azrael goes after this, I assume he was going to confirm that Brie Allen was like old now or something.

55:55 Like I assumed he had an option he was going to confirm it, but I don't think we ever get the follow up for that. So if you know what the fuck's going on, let us know. Yeah, yeah. All right. That's that's what I have for the second one. Did you have anything else? No. All right, so the third prophecy, twin Ravens are coming, 1 white and one black. That's it.

56:12 That's the prophecy again. This one's pretty straightforward. The King's Ravens show up in the library. One dressed in white with white hair, one dressed in black with black hair. And the white haired one says we are the King's Ravens, his far flying eyes and talents and we've come to take you back.

56:26 He says that's an esta. Right. So again, but she says they're coming. Not they will come. She says they are coming like they are on route, so they aren't really happening. They're on their way. Yeah, I agree with you on Ravens. I think twin Ravens, it's the King's Ravens. They show up. Yeah, that's the end of that. All right.

56:47 Ready for the big one? He snapped. Your wings, broke your bones. It will take more than that to kill me. Cassian said with a smirk that didn't meet his eyes. Elaine only said to Cassian. No, it will not. OK, for starters, this is the only prophecy where she tries to predict the future, the only one where she's like, no, it will not, right?

57:06 The only time she uses a future tense verb in any of these prophecies and she gets it wrong, right? So in the final battle, I believe there is a moment that she has seen or that she thinks she's seen where this happens, right? So in the final battle of Getz Hyburn, the king snaps Cassian's wings.

57:25 The line is not 20 feet away. Cassian was on the ground, wings snapped in spots, blood leaking from them. So that's he snapped her wings. Then he breaks his bones. The quote is the king of Hyburn stood over him and extended a hand. Cassian arched off the ground, bellowing in pain. A bone cracked somewhere in his body. So we have staffed wings.

57:45 We have broken bones. And then what happens? Elaine shows up. Elaine shows up with Truth Teller and she kills the king of Hybrid, right? So this prophecy, I think was supposed to happen and this moment and then Elaine, either through her own free will or through something else, prevents it from happening.

58:04 So this was the moment it did not happen. I do not think that Cassian is still going to die because we already the king of Hybrid is already dead, right? So like that's who the other part of this prophecy is about. So I, I just think this is over. I don't know if it was that Elaine realized she had free agency and she decided to interfere, or if she could not see this outcome because again, the collagen was involved, right?

58:28 Farah is seeing this with the cauldron, right? So is that why she couldn't see the outcome, see what would happen here? She saw everything up to that point. She assumed that Cassie would die, but she got it wrong. And he didn't. I don't know. And she interfered. Elaine interfered right at the moment when Farrah offered up her soul to the Cauldron in exchange for saving them.

58:48 So did the Cauldron actually have Elaine interfere and that's why she couldn't see it? I think either one, I like either one, honestly. Like, I like the idea that Elaine, this is like Elaine starting to realize what she can do, where she can actually see an outcome and then change it. I really like that. I also like the kind of off kilter idea that Farrah offering up her soul to the cauldron.

59:12 The cauldron said, I'll take that. Here you go. And now Pharah's soul belongs to the cauldron. Well, if that's true, that means we now have two Archeron sisters who have made a bargain with the Cauldron. But Pharaoh doesn't have a tattoo. A tattoo. Can we just start saying tattoo? No, we cannot.

59:30 All right, Dragons after dark, little wacky guys. All right, I want to talk about something that we probably should have talked about in our Nesta episode. At that moment, there is a moment where Pharaoh says that Cauldron followed Nesta like a dog. So I know we say that the Cauldron hates Nesta.

59:47 I know that is like the let me see if I can find it. I know that is the belief, but like, she's putting language in here that kind of leads me to believe that that's not actually the case. The Cauldron crept along with Nesta, A hound at her side. So that is not imagery to me that evokes like, hate and disdain, right?

1:00:08 That is like, I am your partner, I'm your buddy. We are both on the hunt. And like, I'm going to help you out with this. That's kind of what I think when I hear a hound at her side. Like maybe they're both hunting the King of Highborn. Like maybe the Cauldron wanted the King of Highborn to die. Maybe that's actually what was happening here. Oh.

1:00:23 I absolutely think that's what was happening here. Otherwise it would not have allowed Elaine to do it. But I actually, I read that Les's companionship. I mean it is companionship but like Nesta is the master in that situation and the Cauldron is the hound but the. Cauldron is like acquiescing to that.

1:00:42 I like, like the, I don't know, like this. This is the imagery she chose to put in here. I just thought it was a really interesting move when it is different from how the relationship has been described. And she obviously intentionally chose these words right. So I'm sure we'll get more on the Cauldron and Nesta in future books. But yeah, yeah.

1:01:00 I agree and I think I mean the majority of yes the cauldron is mad that Nesta took from it but really the person who is after her and hates her for it is Highburn not the. Culture. Yeah, right. And so that would make sense with this prophecy too, right? If this is the Cauldron interfering and we know Elaine can't really see the Cauldron, if the Cauldron was what spurred Elaine to save Cassie and Nesta's life in this moment and kill the King of Highborn, then I think that all kind of fits together. I guess my only counterpoint, let me see if I can find it, is that when Farrah is traveling with the cauldron, right? She says right after Elaine kills Hibern, and she's kind of there, like watching the

1:01:40 aftermath. Elaine had defended this thief. Elaine, who would have gifted with such powers, found her so lovely. It had wanted to give her something. It would not harm Elaine, even in its hunt to reclaim what had been taken. So the Cauldron does Dean Nesta, a thief like Dean Nesta, like a villain in its story at some point because Feyra is saying and like feeling because she's with the Cauldron, like well, this person is OK because Elaine defended her.

1:02:04 Yeah, yeah. I think this is all from the same like a couple pages. So like it kind of switches. I don't know, but I see what you're saying. Yeah, that could be, yeah. I agree. I mean, I think Elaine saw him die, which he surely would have if she had not showed up and then she did. Whether it was of her own accord or the accord of the Cauldron, I don't know. But I think it would be a nice plot device if we find out that Elaine is the kind of seer who can see what's going to happen but can change it.

1:02:32 Yeah, that would be nice. I agree with that. I agree. All right. I had one bonus prophecy. I had a bonus prophecy, too. I'm curious. Oh, great. What's yours? Acor Chapter 33. No. OK, I don't know. Maybe. Is it about the cereal? Nope. Tell me what yours is. OK, so when Lucian is going to leave, Elaine sees something about Lucian. We get these heads throughout the books, right? She's kind of blinking, not really all there seeing things, and she's not always telling us what she's seeing. Like, I think we're given plenty of imagery to make us believe that's the case.

1:03:05 But Elaine sees something about Lucian that made her almost talk to him when he left. The quote is in Aquar chapter 33. Elaine now watched Lucian warily, blinking every now and then. She revealed no hint of whatever she might be seeing, sensing none. And then a bunch of stuff transpires. Lucian's about to leave, to go find Vasa. Lucian took Reese's hand, that silent offer of not only transportation before that dark wind swept in. Lucian looked back.

1:03:33 Not to me, I realized, to someone behind me. Pale and thin. Elaine stood atop the stairs, so she knew that Lucian was leaving. She came, came to the top of the stairs, their gazes locked and held, but Elaine said nothing, did not so much as take one step downward. Lucian inclined his head in a bow, the movement hiding the gleam, his eye, the longing and sadness. And when Lucian turned to signal to Reese to go, he did not glance back at Elaine, did not see the half step she took towards the stairs, as if she'd speak to him, stop him. Then Reese was gone, and Lucian with him. When I turned to offer Elaine breakfast, she'd already walked away.

1:04:07 I think Elaine knows something is going to happen that is preventing her from getting close to Lucian. I know we talked about it being Tamlin. I don't think it has to be right? I think there could be plenty of things in that moment that she could have seen really the whole time, right? Maybe could have known like, hey, do not get close to this man. Something bad is going to happen either to him and then you'll be sad about it or to to him if you do. Some ideas, food for thought on what it could be. Obviously this would be horrible, but like, Lucian could die.

1:04:39 Yeah, the Lucian could die. Lucian could die if they get close and she's realizing, hey, I can see things and sometimes they change, so maybe, maybe I need to not follow this mating path because. Because he could die and something bad's going to happen. 2 I think this is probably the most likely. She desperately wants to be human and has not given up on whatever path she might see to get back there, which means that Lucian cannot be in her path.

1:05:05 Yeah, 3. And this is really just like a Hail Mary from a bonus chapter. She might see that Azrael and Lucian compete in the Blood duel, which is an Autumn Court tradition in a battle of the death, and she sees that Lucian will not win. Or she sees the Lucian does and she hates him for it because she clearly is hot for Azrael.

1:05:22 Like, I don't know. That blood duel is coming for sure. Blood Duel. I mean, we don't we do not just learn about these one off things and then they never happen. So I think in that moment, we're like, hello, Elaine is acting with intention. She's not just being difficult. She doesn't just not like Lucian. Like she sees something, she knows something. She was going to talk to him.

1:05:43 Like what she's fighting was talking to him. She's not fighting him. Yeah, I think that's a great point because she treats Lucian so differently than she treats everyone else, right? There's no one else that she is, like, cold to. There is no one else that she, like, blows off like she like, yeah, I mean, to be fair, she has reasons to be mad at him, right?

1:06:02 Like, he was there when she went in the cauldron. He did not prevent it from happening. He was, like, part of it, right? It's like, I do think that is still a big thing for her. And that's something she can't easily forgive. But, yeah, I mean, you made you raise her very good point that, like, she seems to be intentionally keeping her dress. I like that idea.

1:06:21 I like that idea a lot. Good thinking, Ron. OK, what's your bonus? All right, mine is about the cereal. When she locates the cereal and this is a wackadoodle idea, guys, this is just a crazy theory. When she locates the cereal it in the middle and during the battle with Highburn, she says it moves. She whispered it moves to the world like like the breath of the western wind.

1:06:43 We get a lot of wind imagery with the cereal. So the snare shattered like a shadow on the wind. The cereal was off a blast of dark that set the four not a staggering back. That's Acatar chapter 15 and then in a court of Miss and Fury chapter 50, a hollow dry wind, not at all like the misty cold veils that usually drift past brush my face. That's when she's going to see the cereal. And then also, I didn't write it down, but when the cereal dies, the quote is like Fay returned back and she could have sworn she saw the wind like dancing in the remains or something. I don't know.

1:07:16 It's not that, but it's something about the wind blowing past the ashes of the cereal. Basically. There is a priestess in the library named Merrill. She says I am descended from Rabbath, Lord of the western wind, Merrill Seeds. Unlike Gwyneth Bardera, I am no lackey to be dismissed. This is 2 mentions of the western wind. What is this western wind like?

1:07:37 I don't have any theories but I think it's similar to the Blood Duel. I think we are going to get a plot line about the western wind. I think the western witness coming. I don't know. I don't know what it is. I don't know how you have a Lord of The Who is Rabbath. Like, what is this Lord of the western wind?

1:07:52 How can you be descended from the wind? I do not have these answers, but I think they're fun questions to ask. I like the idea, yeah. Who is the surreal? I have ideas on that. We'll get mass first. Section. So do I. Who is the surreal Pharaoh Asked him what his name was. Now he's. Now he's dead. Maybe.

1:08:12 Okay, all right, I had one more note I was gonna just go through all the time. The cereal makes prophecies that don't come true. I don't know if we need to do that. I mean, should we just say the cereal makes prophecies Then don't? Come true Cereal makes prophecies that don't come true as well. Fair asks if there's truly no way for her to go home. He says not unless you seek to be killed and your family with you, you must remain here.

1:08:35 I'm not sure if the serial is lying or if this is just straight up wrong, but like, obviously that's not true. And then Fair asks if there's no way she can get close to the Cauldron a second time, and the serial says no. And then obviously she does. So like, do not trust any prophecy in this world. They are wrong all the time, every time. 100% wrong, right? Yeah, except for stay with the High Lord. But that's, again, is that really a prophecy? I don't know.

1:08:56 All right, Master. Mass First OK guys, so we're moving on to our Mass First section. What this means you will be spoiled for Crescent City and Throne of Glass. If you have not read the entirety of both of those series, you are now entering territory in which you might be spoiled. If you don't want that, then this is your time to drop off.

1:09:15 We love you. We love you. Bye. See you later. OK, now that we can talk about the real shit. Abby, do you have any mass verse cosms? One and I'm almost scared to do it because I don't want to open this can't afford these worms again. However, I do feel the need to talk about it and maybe this will be all we say about it this episode because this will be something we continue to talk about We talked about last episode about whether or not death gods are Esteri.

1:09:42 I do not think that death gods pond further reflection can be full Esteri because Nesta kills Lanthus with Ataraxia and when Nesta thrusts Ataraxia through Vesperous she is OK right? She is fine. So we have the same weapon. One can kill a death God but the other can. A death God can be killed by ataraxia, but an Esteri cannot be killed by Ataraxia. So that's my only point.

1:10:10 That's all I have to say on this ongoing debate that we will continue to have. But I think they are of the same ilk. But I do not think that death gods are at the level of Asteri. Possibly. But again, we will come back to that. We will continue to talk about it, I'm sure. OK, OK. Do you do? You have any gods? I don't even feel like I can respond to that because it will take us down a rabbit hole.

1:10:32 OK, I have one omission from the last section that we talked about. I'm sure there's so much that we could get into that is full mass verse about Elaine's prophecies, but we talked about I'm scared to open up this worm can of worms as well. Please do it, I'm so excited. We talked about it's not that crazy to you.

1:10:49 It'll it might be crazy to other people. We talked about the prophecy where she says I can hear your heart beating through the stone. Yes, there are other situations in which there are living beings trapped in stone. There are people Faye in the walls of the prison. Could she be hearing the hearts of the Faye in the walls of the prison? And could this be a nod to a potential relationship with the Dusk Court?

1:11:12 I like that because there is also clearly a link between the prison and the House of Wind, right? Because Nesta seize the harp when Gwen is singing in that underground cauldron. So there's something linking them together. I like the idea, yeah. Second crazy idea related to mass. First, could she be hearing again related to the prison?

1:11:35 Vesperus is hard. Let's get out. Let's talk about it more because I like that idea, but. Like not here you mean? I'm going to get into it in the in this question and this next question that we're. Going to take fine, fine, fine, I think. All right. So let's continue on to mass first. All right, first question that we're asking ourselves. This first question, I think, I mean we can talk about it, but I don't have a very long answer.

1:11:59 The question is, is Elaine Starborn? Elaine was made by the Cauldron and the Cauldron was warped by the Astaire. So by the same logic we're using to say that Nesta is Starborn, we should be able to say the same for Elaine. However, similar to everything else in Elaine's life, there are certain abilities and powers that are super pronounced in Nesta, are a little bit less pronounced in Ferra, and then Elaine is just a little bit different. And so Elaine is really not often. There's one time, maybe 2 compared paired to anything that we consider a Steri adjacent or Starborn adjacent. Really the only nod towards her being Starborn is her ability to successfully wield Truth Teller, which is Azrael's blade that is the twin to the star sword AKA

1:12:44 Gwidian. Plus in Nesta's recounting Elena said to be glowing slightly. Nesta says that was Elaine lying on the stone floor with the red haired one eyed female hovering over her. Because those were pointed ears poking through her sister's sodden golden brown hair and an immortal glow radiating from Elaine.

1:13:05 Fair skin. And Elaine has pointed out to be just different. We've talked about that, right? Reese calls Nesta Illyrian. He's basically saying like Nesta is like us. Elaine is Elaine like she's something else. So I think Elaine has * Warren power in some regard because of the Cauldron, but it's not as obvious. It's not as stronger face.

1:13:27 Like I'm not willing to say hand on my heart like Elaine has the power of Thea in her somehow or Celine or Vesperus line. And I don't think that's so crazy because as we know the cauldron was worked by the hysteria. But the cauldron is a thing of the fae. So is she star born baby? Probably, but like definitely less. She's not walking around with an 8 point star tattoo. She's not.

1:13:49 I agree with you. I have one point. She does touch truth teller. She wields truth teller. However, the blacksmith that brings Reese Nesta swords presumably also touches them, right? So I don't think you actually have to be Starborn to like touch these swords necessarily. Truth Teller doesn't like sing for her the way it sings for Azrael and for Bryce, right?

1:14:11 So I'm not totally sold on the truth teller thing. Yeah, she glows when she comes out of the cauldron, but maybe everyone glows. Basically the only argument that we have that she is starborn, quote UN quote, is because Bryce uses the words made and starboard kind of interchangeably. That being said, I'm going to answer our next question assuming that she is starboard, just so you know, But that's fine.

1:14:31 Ready for the next question? Yes. OK, Abby, why is Elaine drawn to Azrael? It's a Speaking of starborn people, it seems that Azrael is starborn. I also think he is probably a descendant of Thea slash Celine slash Vesperus. I'm going to get into why. So you brought up last week, you talked last week about Reese not being able slash willing to touch Nesta sword, right? So like, we agree that these are both Starborn people, but that being Starborn doesn't automatically mean you can wield the weapon of the of a different Starborn person, right? Like it has to have like kind of the same origin of its power. We think that Nessa's power is from Deanna. Reese's power is obviously from Vesperus, right? So by that logic, if Azrael can

1:15:16 wield both the Star Sword and Truth Teller, he is probably also of Vesperosus line. So let's examine that a little bit. So we know that the Star Sword calls to him, right? So the quote is. The mountain shook again. Nesta and Azrael had halted. 10 feet away. Ataraxia, A blazing light Truth Teller enveloped by shadows. The Star Sword remained sheathed at Azrael's back, but she could have sworn it it twitched as if urging Azrael to draw it. Right, so that is Bryce he's talking about how the Star Sword is reacting to Azrael's power.

1:15:47 He can actually wield the Star Sword and Truth Teller at the same time. So the quote for that is, what have you done? Azrael rasp and Bryce twisted to find him on his feet, wings tucked in, Nestle leaning against him as if wounded, Atoraxia dangly from her grip. The male now held the Star Sword at the ready, Truth Teller gripped in his other hand. He must have had some sort of star born blood in him then, A distant ancestor maybe.

1:16:11 Or maybe he's possession of the knife somehow allowed him to be the bear allowed him to also bear the star sword, right? So yes other people can touch truth Teller. But it seems like Bryce is implying here only people of the star born line. She even says it can even touch the star sword right? So that's a point in this direction. He feels the star sword and truth teller singing to each other and the Princess of hell say that the star sword only calls to descendants of Helena.

1:16:37 So the quote for that is both weapons were key to her power thanks to Theas assistance and they're making Adis explained calmly. It is why the store sword calls the descendants of Helena of Thea, but to only those with enough of Thea Starlight, but only to those with enough of Thea Starlight to trigger its power.

1:16:55 Your ancestors called these face star born. The Asteria have no power over the blades. They lack Thea's connections to the wedding. Since the stars sort of knife were both made by Thea at the same moment, their bond has always linked them. They have long sought to be reunited as they were in their moment of their making. And there's a quote right?

1:17:11 I should have had it written down, but there's a quote in when they're under the prism, when they're in the tunnels under Prytheon where Bryce asked Azrael, she says, can you feel them calling to each other? And Nesta says yes, he definitely can. I've never seen him squirm so much right like that is the quote.

1:17:26 So like he, he is feeling this power between the star sword and between truth teller. Reese has a line about Azrael being more like him than anyone realized. So the line is it's not it's slowly. He'd always understood me best more than the others, save my mate. Whether it's his gifts that allowed him to do so, or merely the fact that he and I were more similar, the most realized I'd never learned.

1:17:47 Right so so Reese is saying there seems to be some kind of connection there. My biggest argument for this though is that while Azrael and Bryce are under the prison, there is another Star war person with them, right? Nesta is with them and she does not feel the star sworded truths teller calling to each other. Like she never says she feels that. There is no indication that she feels it right. So I think Azrael has to be of this Vesperus line if he is feeling it because it's not just about having the Esteri power, it's about specifically being a Vesperus line of Thea's line, of Helena's line, of Solene's line.

1:18:20 There is another quote that I will tell you right now. This might be a stretch, but when Azrael faces off against Vesperous, she says his power is his. She says hit. Sorry, she says his power is hers. I assume she meant in a general way, like all Illyrians by made were made by the Esteri, but I'm wondering if she meant literally.

1:18:41 It's a literally my power. The quote is. Vesperous lifted a hand to her neck as Azrael's blue light dissolved into her skin. She let out a strangled laugh as blood leak from her mouth. Still so ignorant. Your power is and will always be mine, right? So does she mean that literally? Like you literally have my power? Like you will not, you will not be able to do anything to me. So again, I think the swords are the key here. So Rhys can't touch Nesta swords. Nesta cannot feel the star sword and truth teller singing to each other.

1:19:10 But Azrael cat. So I think that Azrael is a descendant of Esperus as well. Why does this matter? I mentioned earlier in the episode that it seems like Elaine might have that dream walking ability that we know that Reese has, right? Like a lot of these prophecies seem to come to her by her being in other people's dreams, by her seeing other people's dreams. So like, yes, maybe she's not Starborn, but maybe the gift that the Cauldron gave her was this piece of Vesperus power, this dream walking piece, right?

1:19:40 Because again, Vesperus seems to be the source of that power. She talks about seeing Prithian through dreams, so do they have the same kind of source of their power? Is this a like calls to like situation? Is my wackadoodle crazy out their thoughts? What do you think? Agree that it's that it makes sense that Azrael has whatever line Bryce does right because he does feel the draw of the sword in the blade.

1:20:08 However, I want to offer one counter perspective and this isn't our Azrael episode. So like maybe we should save it for them. But I'm just going to tease it now and maybe I'll prove myself wrong when we prep for that episode. The holder of the sword and the holder of the knife seem like they're supposed to be.

1:20:25 On opposite sides somehow. So we know that Bryce is Starborn, Maybe Azrael is Starborn as well. But the prophecy right is when knife and sword are reunited, so shall our people be. So knife is is truth teller, sword is * sword like. What is different? What is separate? What is a way about Azrael versus price? Like is it just that there are two Faye peoples who are split over worlds?

1:20:55 Totally possible, but the sword is not the same as the Yeah, the sword it is specifically. The the sword is light and the knife is like cloaked at shadows. And the knife cannot. Yeah. So the the quote is so. So Bryce is talking to Nesta about Atoraxia and Bryce asks what kind of sword is that anyways? And Nesta says one that can kill the unkillable. And Bryce says so is the star sword and then nods to Azrael. Can your dagger kill the unkillable too? He says it's called truth teller. And no, it cannot.

1:21:26 So it is not, it's not a star blade like it doesn't have the same power. It obviously has some power, some like answer to the star sword, but is it something different? Is it another people we have talked about and theorized about the people of Hell Slash maybe valid potentially being from the same home world or something from the same place as a Steri? Like are those people that are being reunited? Because here we've got 2 Faye, yes. So maybe it is just a Faye prophecy, but we also have potentially 2 Faye plus something else. Do they have to be the same?

1:22:00 I don't know. Yeah, well, I mean, we know Thea helped make both of them, right? So again, both weapons were keyed to her power thanks to Thea's assistance in their making. But we also know from Celine's video, as Bryce calls it, that there were two cloaked figures on the peak of Romeo that were there when they were made.

1:22:16 So maybe you're right. Like 1 is maybe one's a Steri, maybe one's valk. I don't know. I don't know, crazy great ideas. Again, this is not our Azrael episode. This is our Elaine episode. Yeah, it's not our Azrael. But I like that you had this stuff prepped too, because clearly that means you went kind of in the same direction that I did.

1:22:32 Sort of sort of did. OK, sorry. So keep going. What is your answer to Why is Elaine drawn to Azrael? Think it might be so OK, clearly she was drawn to. So first of all, she might just think he's hot, right? Classic. Like she's clearly drawn to him when she's still human, right? So like there's a couple quotes. So they're the ones that diffuse the tension between Nesta Farah when Farah comes back as Faye Elaine. So like, I think this is the I can still fight and fuck and whatever is as good as I used to. Elaine says it's all very disorienting. And Azrael says I can imagine.

1:23:05 And Farah literally wonders. She says, I wondered if Reese's spymaster often got his information through stone cold manners as much as stealth and shadow. So like Elaine and Azrael hit it off, like right away, like instantly, his presence ground her, grounds her. So the quote there is. Reese chuckled, Cassian's wrath slipping enough that he grin, and Elaine, noticing Azrael's ease as proof that things weren't indeed about to go badly, offered one of her own as well.

1:23:31 So like his presence ground her. She sees that he's, he's at ease. She feels that she can be as ease. They flirt when she's still human, his shadows disappear when she's around. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. As we know, his shadows dance with Gwen, but his shadows disappear when she's around. Yeah.

1:23:49 And again, we talked about in our Lucian episode, he's the one who figures out that she's a seer, right? So he's seemingly. And Madra says a mate will know what's wrong with her, right? So he's the one who figures it out. Seemingly, that means he understands her kind of better than anyone else.

1:24:05 What else do I have? I have a lot. I want to just react to that. Yeah, about the shadows, like they are definitely drawn to each other, but there is some intense resistance about it. We haven't seen, even with Aylan Rowan, who started out as straight up enemies, like we haven't seen some of these indicators, the first being shadows fleeing. And I'm not trying to discourage the El real lovers here. OK, right.

1:24:30 If this, if this ends up being the case, like I'm all for it. I'm just pointing out something that may, Yeah, make it tough. Right. Shadows fleeing. I don't know if that's good or bad to your point. Like they skittered back at the sound. They'd always been prone to vanish when she was around, like, or as real shadows, something that indicate that he's unhappy and sore. Them disappearing a good thing.

1:24:52 Or is it, you know, is it his essence, right? That's like skittering back at her. When they touch, there's clear attraction, but suddenly the narrator says wrong. It was so wrong. Like something's up here. I don't know. It's it's feeling odd and very like secretive. I don't know. But maybe maybe it's just wrong now. But they they specifically say just this taste in the dead of the longest night of the year where only the mother might witness them.

1:25:20 So maybe it's wrong now, but the mother is nudging them to do this because eventually it might be right. Maybe the mating bond can move as a result of the blood duel. Like maybe that's a fake bond like between her and Lucian. I don't know. But we are definitely getting, I think we are getting pretty strong signals that like yes, you want this, you want it, but it's not right.

1:25:41 Yeah, I don't know, maybe I'm just so everyone knows, most of these chapters are from the the bonus chapter, right? Most of these quotes are from the bonus. Chapter yes, bonus chapter from a court of silver flames which diabolical of her not to put this in the book. Yeah, so I had a note here and we had a commenter said leave a very sassy comment about how we didn't even consider that Reese might be fucking with Elaine's mind, Elaine and Lucian's mind to create the bods. So I at the time was like, I don't think Reese is powerful enough to do this.

1:26:15 But that was before we kind of dove into all of our Reese. Definitely think he's powerful enough Reese theory. So whether you believe he's good or evil. Saying that, I think this happened but Lucian being Elaine's mate benefited Farah greatly while she was in the Supreme Court, right? So like, is there a world where Reese faked this bond between Lucian and Elaine to give Feyra an ally while she's in the Supreme Court?

1:26:38 The reasons I think, no, he did not do that is because he did not know about her plan to go back to the Supreme Court when Elaine came out of the cauldron, right? So like, the order of events doesn't line up there. Like Elaine comes out of the cauldron and then like a couple pages later, Feyra makes this plan to go back to the Supreme Court. Reese is not a seer.

1:26:56 He did not know she was going to do that. So I don't think that works. And also, yeah, this is, it's fucking diabolical. Like there's no way Favor would forgive him for fucking with her sister's mind like this. So like, I don't think it works, but now we're talking about it. So I hope everyone's happy. Yeah.

1:27:11 I mean, yeah, we haven't talked about Reese yet, so we'll address all of the theories about him having, like, really nefarious motives. And I will say it's kind of like, it's kind of like if Tamlin had just just straight up saved Reese's sister and never told him about it and there was nothing more to it. Like, yes, it's possible.

1:27:32 Like, yes, this is totally possible. Does it work for the story? Right, just because it works. With the magic doesn't mean it works with. The characters, right, And also we have we have a completed series by Sarah J Mass and she doesn't pull something like making the most beloved character who she also loves the complete villain. Like, that's not, yeah, been a thing. So yeah, we'll talk about it more in Reese's in Reese's episode.

1:27:59 But I hear what you're saying and I agree. Like it is possible that Reese could be manipulating this mating bond for political benefit that is magically possible. Magically possible. Character wise, highly unlikely. Highly unlikely. There's one thing that he would maybe just give Azrael some joy if it were owed to him. I know.

1:28:19 I don't know. Yeah, whatever. We'll talk about it later. I had one more quote that I wanted to talk about with Lyria from Kingdom of Ash. So this is Rowan's fake mate. He'd come to love Lyria, that had been true, and the guilt of it ate him alive whenever he thought of it. But he could understand now why Lyria had been so frightened of him for those initial months, why it had been so damn hard to court her, even with that mating bond. It's truth unknown to Lyria as well. She had been gentle and quiet and kind. A different sort of strength, yes, but not what he might have chosen for himself.

1:28:52 So similar to Elaine, right? First of all, she's a flower girl. She's a flower girl with the market, right? So like obviously huge parallel to Elaine there. And then she, he also talks about that different sort of strength, which is what Farah says Elaine has, right. So like lots of parallels to Elaine, lots of parallels to seemingly the Lucian situation and like the way that she doesn't want to be around Lucian. She's resistant, she's scared of him. Like she's she's not into it.

1:29:20 Yeah. Which is the same way that this fake fake meeting Bond was too. Like Rowan and Alien, there was a lot. Yeah, there were moments where Rowan was like, I am in big shit here, like I'm in trouble here, right? Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, right? Because even if you're looking for the same plot line, which I'm personally looking for, you could see it either way being for or against Elaine.

1:29:46 I think there's a very real possibility that whatever is happening is trying to keep Azrael from his mate and whoever he's supposed to be with because he's been pining after more forever, right? Forever. And why? Like you would have. You would know after 500 years. If anything, we're going to snap into place there. And now the same thing is happening with Elaine. The question is, are more in Elaine the distractions, or is Elaine the real thing and he's suddenly faced with it? I don't know.

1:30:16 Yeah, I don't know. But I I'm excited for his development because I think he's going to be great. Anyways, this is not our Azrael episode. I have a couple. That's all I had. That's all I had. I have one rather morbid thought and it's related to truth teller so that's why I went down the truth teller path. Interesting.

1:30:39 This is, by the way, we're still on the question. Why is Elaine drawn to Azrael? Just as a reminder, we're on this question in Crescent City. We learn when Bryce is talking with the Autumn King. The Autumn King says the Star Sword is made, as you call it. He waved an idle hand, sparks at his fingertips. The knife can unmake things made and unmade matter and antimatter with the right now, the power, a command from one dust and whatever they can create a place where no life exists. That's not the important part.

1:31:09 With respect to this question, the knife can unmake things. Truth teller can unmake things. Elaine, we know, is still kind of lusting after this idea of becoming human. Like Amran calls her out and is like Elaine, I know what you're after and you're never going to be human again. What if, whether unconsciously or consciously, and remember, she can see things, so she can she's seeing more than she might be letting on if she's drawn to Azrael because he has a blade that can unmake. Her maybe it would be.

1:31:42 I don't. I thought you were going to go in a different direction. I still like that direction, but when Brie Allen is unmade. She dies. She dies. Yeah, but also Nesta is deaf, so. Oh yeah, Nessa's death. Sometimes I forget. So I don't know necessarily. Then unmaking requires death. I thought you were going to say the way that Elaine is made, perhaps as real if he does have this Prince of Hell connection. We'll get into it.

1:32:06 This is not a Prince of Hell episode. Is unmade. Yeah. And therefore the two of them together would just unleash chaos upon the world somehow. Possibly, yeah. I don't know, I don't have enough for that theory, but it was a thought I had at one point. I think Azrael is definitely half of some puzzle.

1:32:23 I just don't know whether Elaine is the other half. Yeah, I agree. But I think Elaine probably dreams at night about becoming human again, so it's cool. Yeah. All right, Last question, official question that we have here is why did the cauldron give the seer power to Elaine? So we've already talked about a cauldron liking Elaine. It purrs in her presence.

1:32:47 Let's talk about the cauldron and its feelings. Actually, we don't really have to. We kind of did already. We know that the cauldron kind of like, resents. Nesta thinks Nest is a thief, but the mother does like Nesta, like, objectively loves Nesta. So the Cauldron and the Mother are not necessarily synonymous, nor do both of them have to feel the same way about you.

1:33:07 The Mother does not need to be allied with the Cauldron. But as far as we know right, the Mother is a generally benevolent character and the Cauldron is kind of like warped and wicked because of the Asterius influence. So the Cauldron is this object of greed. It resents Nesta for taking from it, but loved Elaine enough to gift to her. We also know that the Cauldron has tempted and fooled Elaine before.

1:33:31 It showed her visions that draw her to it so it can then inflict harm on her and others. We do not trust the Cauldron. And the Cauldron has manipulated Elaine. Yeah. So if the Cauldron gave her the ability to see, could the Cauldron also be still manipulating what she sees? Or could it not always be manipulating what she sees, but it will in the future?

1:33:55 Is the Cauldron A sleeper Daglin device basically that effectively has Elaine as a plant whether she wants to be or not. Like she's seeing. I think she's the way that she's seeing is so similar to the way that the Cauldron sees that I think we know that they're intrinsically connected, but I also think the Cauldron can control her visions if it. Which makes total sense, right?

1:34:17 Because the Cauldron can see what is happening and knows what happened, but the Asteri, as far as we know, can't see the future. I mean, Babe can see the future, presumably, but we. Yeah, but we're not opening that door right now. But like the we don't know of any Asteri who have the ability to see the future.

1:34:33 So I think that's a really interesting theory. I really like that. That's what I got. OK, what do you got? This is a wackadoodle theory for me. Let's say that right now it is not your theory, but I like your theory too. All right, so I want to start. I want to talk about the Mystics in Midgard, in Crescent City. All right, so in Midgard there are beings called the Mystics. And what the Mystics can do is mentally travel between all worlds to search for things.

1:34:58 Again, they can't see the future. They can only see things that are happening right now. They are used to answer questions. They are used to look for things. So the quotes we have are do I need to read this quote? Whatever. I don't think we need to read this quote. We get it. We have we have instances of misting Mystics saying things that sounds similar to what Elaine says when she says her prophecies, right. So Sigrid says to Bryce when she meets her, the female scanning Bryce from her feels to her head said you came to see the Mystics you blazed with the Starlight, right? So that sounds very similar to me the way that Elaine like talks about Vasa, right?

1:35:34 Like I don't have a quote ready, but like, you know, she, she's blazing with fire basically. Like I see you and then I see your power as well, right? The Asteri, we're always looking for other worlds to conquer and we don't have confirmation on this. This is just kind of a guess on my part. Did the Asteri create the Mystics specifically to look for other worlds to conquer?

1:35:56 Right. So Celine has a line in the prison says after all that searching, someone finally answered a Daglin who had been using his his army of Mystics to scour the galaxies for our world. The Daglin promised him every reward. If only he could nudge my mother towards this moment to use the dread, the dread trove to open a portal to the world he's indicated. So his army of Mystics, right?

1:36:17 So did the Esteri create the Mystics specifically for this job? Yeah, yes, go ahead. I totally thought that was true because doesn't Rigilus have the Osteris have Mystics themselves? Yeah, there was 1000 Mystics under the Crystal Palace, but it's not, I don't think it's ever confirmed. I don't think we have a smoking gun quote that says they create the Mystics.

1:36:38 If they made the Mystics in Midgard, did they make the cereal in Prithean, the cereals in Prithean? Maybe that is my that is my question. Here, we certainly know they're prototyping. They're prototyping. Things we've certainly got that down South we have a couple clues that this might be true so the first one first question how did the Daglin make the notated star maps that were on press right.

1:37:00 So the quote is it was Pelleas who told her where to cast her intention using old notated star maps from their former masters. He selected a world for them. Did they bring those with them? Did they make them here Were the serial at one point we know not now, but were the serial at one point able to see beyond worlds when the serial dies? I mentioned this quote earlier.

1:37:18 Faber realizes she never asked it its name, implying it once had an right. So the way we know that these Mystics are people was this well, they're they're creatures at least was the cereal also once a creature? So it's chess rose and then fell. I don't even know your name. I whispered the cereal.

1:37:35 It was a title. It was a name for its kind. So were cereals at one point, possibly Faye, that were naturally and that had mystical abilities, right? That had some mystical abilities, but then were made by the Daglin, by the Osteria into Mystic like beings. But in Prithean it was the cereal rather than Midgard, right? Stay with me, I'm not done here.

1:37:57 So when we first meet the cereal, it says it is older than all of the high Lords and Prithean itself. But then we later find out that it's not older than the Cauldron, right? So the timeline fits, right? So the Daglin were there 15,000 years ago. If the cereal was made 15,000 years ago, that fits with the timeline. When the cereal dies, it bleeds black. Going back to Vesperus here, I know that we have conflicting A steri like blood.

1:38:20 Sometimes they bleed black, but Vesperus certainly bleeds black. So I am wondering basically if the cereal were made using Vesperus power, using Vespers as power either in the cauldron or just directly. But like again, are the cereal part of this idea like where they have these dreams and they can see the world as it is now the way that Vespers can?

1:38:41 And is Elaine becoming a cereal? Is that what's happening here? Because her powers are so similar to what the cereals powers are right? So they can both track they both they can both see the present. We've established that firmly. You mentioned before, they both can't see things that are hidden by the Cauldron, right? So Farah asked the cereal to track down Hyburn's army. Cereal says even I cannot see it. He uses magic to cloak it.

1:39:06 Magic far older than I the Cauldron. Another awful smile. Yes, if the Daglin made the cereal, I think that makes total sense that they would put this blind spot kind of in there, right? Because they don't want the cereal to be able to rise up against them. Both Elaine and the cereal, again, this kind of makes sense. Can't see the death gods.

1:39:23 So again, if the death gods were weapons of the Esteri, it would make sense. So the cereal can't see the bone Carver. Elaine can't see kosher. Here's my kicker. Do you remember the first thing that we learned about Elaine in this entire series? She needs a new cloak. Oh yeah, she doesn't need a new.

1:39:41 Cloak. That is the first thing we learn about her. Yeah. So I think the Cauldron is potentially turning Elaine into a cereal, which would be fucking why? Yeah, that would be crazy, Yeah. I don't know. Is that what's coming for her? Be wack a doodle That would be wack also. Like how do you stop that?

1:39:59 How do you stop that? I don't know. Yeah, I mean, going back to another wackadoodle theory, could NASTA have to unwarp the cauldron because you can't kill it? I think it's explicitly said that to end the cauldron would be to end all life on Prythian. So we don't. Favorite favorite breaks the cauldron at the end of Aqua war, remember?

1:40:18 And the void opens. Yeah. But yeah, it's the kill switch for for Prythian so it can't be done. But to get to your point about unmaking things, maybe that's how you do it. Maybe Truth Teller, if she is turning into a cereal, could unmake her from being a cereal. Yeah, maybe. Maybe that's how you I thought you're going with unmaking the cauldron, but yeah, OK. Well, yeah, maybe it can unmake the cauldron. But I don't think we want to unmake the cauldron otherwise. Well, just unmake it of its.

1:40:43 Made just unmake it and make it Fay again. Yeah, that would be good. Yeah, I like it. All right, so that was my what I could do. Elaine is the cereal. Elaine is becoming a cereal, I think. OK. All right. All right, Precog corner, these are gentle reminder, our craziest theories, even though the ones that we've thrown out here, we're pretty crazy where we don't have a ton to go off of, but we have enough.

1:41:07 Abby, what is your pre code corner theory? OK, I truly after that, that was my craziest theory. I'm just pulling a card out of your book and just throwing in some quotes and seeing if we get anything from it. I don't have a theory. Elaine scent is Jasmine and honey and she is constantly described as like a deer, like a fawn, like a So like there's a lot of deer imagery with Elaine.

1:41:31 Juniper, a fawn. Yeah, her scent is Jasmine and vanilla, Right. So we have both of these deer like ladies with Jasmine. I don't have a theory. I'm just pointing this out. Like does Elaine has some kind of connection to fawns? I don't think it's possible. Like it's probably just a nice little wink nod, but like.

1:41:53 Doe eyed. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe, I don't feel like do we have anything concrete to go off of there? Certainly not. Certainly if Elaine were given shifter abilities she would for sure be Bambi. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, I mean, I didn't have a lot to go off on. That is Elaine Juniper.

1:42:17 Or is she the surreal? No, I don't think she is Juniper, to be clear. Could they be connected? That would be fun. OK, why not? All right, what's your precoc theory? Be very. Short and I'm not expecting anything. Do you think that Feyra is a Bloodhound? Walk me through it. I have a. Refresher for everyone.

1:42:34 Bloodhounds are. Oh yeah. Because she knows about it. City and we learned that Danica is 1 and they're basically this special species of shifter Fey that can detect bloodlines and so Danica is a Bloodhound she's able to trace bloodlines. Feyra looks at Lucian and we we see and hear the logic a little bit around that kind of their face and all that. But like, a lot of other people have been around Lucian and Helian for a long time.

1:43:02 And Pharaoh's like, that's Helian's son. And I thought of this actually in a prior episode and I have on film me realizing it and being like, I can't talk about this right now. Oh, that's what that was, yes. Because Pharaoh has not yet seen Gwyn. Right. Maybe. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. Food for thought. Is Pharaoh A Bloodhound?

1:43:21 That's interesting, because we're not. Told that you have to be a wolf to be a. Bloodhound, but also. Like there could be a wolf, though she calls herself a wolf all the time and what she sees in the aura, Boris is wolfie. OK, OK, so maybe. I don't know, maybe. OK, here's the real one. All right, There are three mentions of Archeron cousins in this series. I'm going to focus on two of them. The third is interesting, but like it, it works, but I don't care about it and we don't have that much time. All right, Farah in A Court of Thorns and Roses, chapter 35 says that her mother's cousin had died of malaria after going to bar it.

1:43:54 We talked about this in our Our Drawn Family episode. Nesta says that their mother had a cousin again, mother's cousin who lives lives current tents on the continent and conveniently forgot about them when they fell on hard times. This is in a Court of Silver Flames chapter 25. She even wrote her cousin. She named the cousin Urstin.

1:44:14 She wrote Urstin to see if Urstin could help and Urstin never responds. Nesta importantly says that she has no kin on her father's side and one cousin on her mother's side. So Farrah thinks her mother's cousin died of malaria. Nesta thinks that their mother's cousin Urstin is alive. And on the continent glamour's work on Farrah, they do not work on Nesta.

1:44:37 Is this cousin alive? And why is this cousin glamoured to be dead? She's on. Yeah. Could you be 1 of Koche's Swans? I don't know. Ursten's a lady, I thought. That Ursten was a lady. You might be right, I don't know. I. Mean maybe it's not Koche Swan. Maybe it's a he. Maybe it's a they. Why? Is this one cousin thought to be dead by Pharaoh and known to be alive by Nesta? No idea.

1:45:00 Plot holes. But no. Let's assume it's a theory. I love it. Yeah. I don't know. What's the third thing? The third, what do you mean the third thing? You said there was a third or it was just then? Yeah, there's three. Other mention was that her mother told Nesta that a cousin had drowned in childhood, but it doesn't specify that it's the mother's cousin. These two are about a mother's cousin, and the mother only has one cousin, 1.

1:45:27 I don't know. Anyway, that's what you should ask Sarah J Masks when you see her on the street. How many cousins does Mama? Archer know Sarah J Masks who is ersten? Just going to be like, are they alive? Fuck is Ersten. Anyways, that wraps our Archelon Archeron family coverage. Abby, what are you reading? What am I reading?

1:45:51 I'm reading Empire of Storms. I I've. Started trying to read some other books and they're just not doing it for me at the moment. So for now we're sticking with Empire Storms. What are you reading? Cool, I'm reading House of Earth and blood still. I don't know, I'm trying to read, I'm trying to read another book at the same time. But honestly, it's really hard when you like like 1 so much more.

1:46:17 Yeah, that's exactly, that's exactly the problem I'm having. So I'm not really succeeding. I'm kind of. Having an itch to reread Quicksilver? I'm too. I am too, I think because Brimstone is coming out soon, but also I feel like I've read, I feel. Like when I read Quicksilver I did not truly appreciate it because it was my Onyx Storm hangover book and obviously Onyx Storm and the Imperial is like up here and I've read a lot of bad romanticy since then.

1:46:41 So I feel like I didn't truly appreciate that. Quicksilver is actually quite good. So yeah, I'm also having that. Should read Quicksilver. But yeah, it's the same thing. I try to read other books and I'm like, I just want to read Empire Storms actually. Like, sorry, like whatever I'm reading right now does not compare to the slow burn that is Bryson.

1:47:00 Hunt, that is for sure. It's not comparing. Yeah, yeah. That book pissed me off so much. It's great by the end, but Oh my God, that pissed me off. I feel like you. Are much more impatient than I am. Yeah, yeah, I think so. I'm like, this is fun. I'm enjoying the murder mystery with with the little hints. Yeah, yeah, I also just live for honestly I. I think they should study the archetypes. That women prefer in male family. Like what does it mean if you're a Rowan and a Rhys person compared to a Cassian?

1:47:37 Who? Who else is like Cassian Carrion? No one. He stands alone. There are people with similar vibes though to. Gassian I guess. Maybe Hunt? Is kind of like a Cassian. Yeah, I would actually specifically love Hunt and Cassian together for many reasons. We'll get into that, but that's a teaser for our next episode, guys. Yes, we'll get there.

1:47:59 All right, guys, it's. Been fun. It's late for us, so we're going to go to. Bed We love you. We are on social media, we are on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, YouTube as Dragons in the details pod. We have a discord server. You can find all of. That in our BIOS, if you just follow us on our socials and we have an e-mail address dragonsinthedetailspod@gmail.com rate subscribe helps us out a lot. We love your comments.

1:48:26 I love the comments. Honestly, on Mondays I just live for the comments. Every time I get one, I'm like Oh my gosh, amazing. So we love you. Happy listening. Well, what am I saying? I just love you. Bye. Love you. Bye. I'm tired. Love you. Bye. Good for our B roll. Can you use this in the bloopers?

1:49:01 Bad dog? This is shame camera.