The Ending of Onyx Storm (Part 1) - Xaden's Version

0:22 So I'm drinking. Coffee so like coffee, we're going to see what the energy level I once again have a crispy Diet Coke, but I'm. Looks it's crispy light. That looks like an ad for Coke. I know, sponsor us. Coca-Cola the small indie brand Coca-Cola Police Gum sponsor our tiny ass podcast. But I'm trying something different because I usually as you know, I usually straw, but I actually think that the straw results in over spicing of the coke. Like there's too much.

0:54 I see what you're saying. Carbonation through the straw. So even though it's like really bad for my teeth. Wow, Oh my God, this sounds you're getting. This is actually wow. Coca-Cola should come thick goes for the free publicity we're giving them. Maybe someone will now hear of Coca-Cola because of this podcast. I don't know.

1:13 We, we shop small here. No, we do try to. We actually do try to shop small. I do try to shop small. Oh, not. Enough. Water. Yeah, I mean, I've seen, I've seen it in grocery stores. I haven't bought it. So I have bought it. This was like a fun niche thing because Connor and I watched some, I forget, we were watching an episode of like some show where like, you know, the Stanley Tucci, like Italy esque shows, but like different, different varieties.

1:40 And there was one on people drinking like different waters. So there was like water tastings. And so we like, we're able to find this and then we bought it and I'm like, it actually has a taste. I'm obsessed with it. And I was watching like Tiny Desk. Do you watch the Tiny Desk Concert sometimes? I've watched Alicia Keys countless times. I was on a binge.

2:01 Well, that's I was on a binge last night and I was watching Billy Eilish's, which by the way, like if you've not seen it, like you need to watch it. She's amazing but she picked up she was drinking this and so much for my like fun niche. No, I've seen Derek and I will. We call it getting bubbly because we're fun like that. We'll like go get sparkling water every day. I'll be like, oh, I want bubbly for dinner. So we've been experimenting with different brands of sparkling water, and that one is sometimes in the rotation. There's also one at Trader Joe's that comes in a clear bottle and it's called, like, I don't know, something German. It starts GER and it's like, you know what? I'm not going to try it, I'm not

2:36 going to try it, but it's very good. Send me a pic I was into that water is not that's flat water but I sometimes like. Sparkly. I've gotten so fucking bougie about water and I just want it to be sparkly all the time. Like you can't be good, you do great in Europe. This can't be good. I know, I know. Cone gas or whatever they yeah, yeah. Yeah, wait.

2:59 Before we dive in, how is Avril? I've been waiting weeks to ask you this question. Good. So good. I mean like it has barely aged a day. Oh my God. Of course. Right, because she's been replaced by another human being. Yeah, well, yeah, that she's also dead, but that's a different topic. If you don't know what we're talking about, Google Avril Lavigne conspiracy theory. We do not.

3:17 I don't actually think this. I feel the need to put this out here. I again, it's similar to some stuff we say on this podcast. I think there's enough, but I don't actually believe. The things we talk about on this podcast are not real. This is a real woman. Yeah, yeah. No, I do not think that ever was actually dead. I think the the maybe the biggest surprise, first of all, like the setlist was great.

3:38 I really enjoyed the concert. There was not enough let go for my taste. Yeah, well, the concert, like I needed that for every song, skips album. Like I need every song from Let Go to be in that setlist, and it wasn't. And so that was tough. Actually this is a great segue because I would love to hear from people listening to this podcast what your no skips album are because we talked about this in in Vermont.

3:58 Ronnie and I I think agree that Pure Heroin by Lord is a no skips album. This Let Go by Avril is a no skips album. I can't think of any others right now. Lungs by Florence and Machine. No skips. Florence and the Machine. Let us know your your no skips album. I'm curious to hear. I need some new ones.

4:16 Yeah, I'm noticing these are all female pop albums of the early 2000s. Indeed, I'm really in my like female singers era right now. Like I'm, I definitely have phases where I'm listening to a lot of men, but right now everything I'm listening to is female. However, do you know who opened for Avril Lavigne?

4:35 I did not know they were still playing Simple Plan. God, I did know this. I looked it up and I thought about it. I was like, Oh my God, simple plan is playing. So I did indeed hear. I'm just a kid. Perfect, my God, perfect made me cry before the concert even started. Oh my God, that's amazing. Do you remember?

4:53 I don't know if you were around and this is kind of revealing some things to our listeners, but there was a day they played a free show in the alley in Baltimore behind the house in Fells Point I. Don't think I was there yet. Oh my God, they I don't, I wasn't there. I just heard about it. But like, they have some connection to Baltimore and there was that record store right next to the house, so they just, like, played a free concert. I was like.

5:14 That's amazing. Yeah. I mean, some crazy people showed up there over the years, but you and I only overlap 2 years. And I think the two year overlap we had was both J. Cole and the chain smokers. Yeah, I had Chitty Bang and there were some good. There were some good, good people coming to our college I had. Nelly in a sleeveless sweatshirt in the gym. Yeah, why not?

5:39 Why not? Why not? Why not? OK. Hi. Hi. Oh, my God. How are you? I feel like it's so funny because we literally saw each other two weeks ago. We don't see each other that much. But because we haven't recorded, I feel like I haven't talked to you. I was saying so long. You are listeners, but I'm also saying hi to. You.

5:56 Oh hi, I do our listeners. I was starting the podcast. Yeah, let's start. Hi I'm Ronnie, I'm Abby and this is Dragons in the details where we pick apart our favorite fantasy series over the course of an undetermined number of episodes. We are. I feel like we're nearing A determined number of episodes, like we're getting there. So I.

6:15 Think, I think, and I'm sad to say it, but I'm also so excited. I think this episode and the next episode are our final. I'm going to quote deep dive episodes. I think these are their final ones that were like, OK, we have a set theme. That's all we're talking about and it's going to be very theory heavy, very text heavy.

6:32 We're going to do our normal thing. I think our plan is to have some more fun episodes, some light hearted episodes in between emails. Or something. Yeah. I think there's no way we don't do a mailbag. Definitely. Especially after we release these episodes. I think there will be people who have things to say, if I had to guess.

6:49 Yeah, I think we're getting a lot of get some interesting feedback for sure. Yeah, yeah. So I think this, we are nearing A determined number of episodes for the Empyrean series. If you're new here, this season we're calling it has been focused on the Empyrean series by Rebecca Yaris. Disclaimer These episodes contain spoilers up through Onyx Storm.

7:10 If you have not finished Onyx Storm, save this, come back later. You have been warned. Everything from here on out, fair game and period series spoilers. Also, due to the contents of that series and also who we are as people, this podcast is rated R. Do not listen to it with your children. It is not appropriate for children. Each week we're diving into a specific topic in depth. We have been following that structure. We throw in a mailbag every once in a while because you guys have awesome theories and comments that you leave for us on social media or in our inbox or in the comments section of our actual podcast episodes, which we love.

7:42 But we've mostly been talking about topics specifically, so we're coming with receipts. We do not say things on here without having at least a shred of evidence for them, even when we come up with them on the fly. And this episode, this episode and our next episode will be focused on the ending of Onyx Storm. Yay.

8:03 Finally, we're doing a 2 parter for this one figure. 2 parter, 2 questions. Let's guess this is Part 1, Part 1 of the ending of Onyx Storm. Yes, and I was thinking in a fun Taylor Swift nod. You know how I don't listen to Taylor Swift? But this episode could be called Zadan's version and the next episode could be called Violet's version. I agree with you and I like it, but like we also get Violet for the same course of events that we get Zadan like the last two episodes.

8:30 Sorry, 2 penultimate chapters. Can I say it that way? Yeah, well, penultimate and ultimate is just no, no, no. But the ultimate is what you're saying is Violet's version. Yeah, yeah, 66. Yeah, that's 66. OK. But 64 and 65 are largely in parallel, so you are still kind of getting Violet's experience.

8:52 Yes, I totally agree with you. This is not going to be an episode that is solely from Zayda's point of view. But it's where Zayden maybe ends. Yes, this is going to, this is kind of going to be like, I think, well, I don't even know. It's going to be focused on Zayden's POV chapter. The next one's going to be focused on Violet's POV chapter, is my understanding of what we're doing. You're looking at me like that's not what we're doing. I guess we'll see how it plays out. I guess we'll see how it plays out, see how it goes. Yeah, yeah.

9:19 Do we have any announcements? I have no announcements. Typical announcements. So Season 2 if you don't know season 2, we are going to restore, start recording soon, but Ronnie and I both need to reread this entire series before we do that. Season 2 is going to be on Akatar, which you've probably guessed if you've listened to the ends of these episodes. So we're going to be diving into Akatar. I am desperately trying to both savor and get through Throne of Glass so that we can talk about the whole Sarah J Mass universe. You guys do not need to do that.

9:47 We will not spoil the Sarah J Mass universe. If we have things that need to be discussed, we will like put them at the end of the episode or say, hey, spoiler alert, if you haven't read Throne of Glass or Crescent City, don't listen to this. We're going to be very careful about that because I hate when things get spoiled for me.

10:02 I'm literally not even reading the backs of the Throne of Glass books. I'm like, just just give me Page 1. I don't care. I don't want to look at the back. I don't want any. You mean the back? Like the back when there's a description like, you know, on the backs of books, they have like a description.

10:15 Reading the like summary blurb. Yeah, I'm not reading it. Who does that? Now, like I'm going to read this book you don't need. To wait, I've actually never done any book that I've ever read. OK, but but if you have a new book, how do you do you just pick a book by its cover? I pick a book off of like Goodreads or something. So I guess I, like, have a sense of the premise before I go in. But I've never read the book advertised version of the premise.

10:38 Yeah, well, sorry if I'm supposed to be doing that. Sorry to authors everywhere. Who? I don't think the authors write them. I think like someone for the publishing company writes them. I don't know if you don't let. It prove them though. I would hope so. I don't know. I really don't know this process.

10:51 All right. And then we are on Discord, so we are drags in the details is the name of our server. We have a lot of great conversations happening on Discord. A lot of you guys are talking to each other and theorizing with each other, which is awesome. And sometimes we don't even have to weigh in because you guys are just like doing it so well on your own.

11:07 So it's really great, yeah. We like to just sit back and watch the chaos. I also, so Abby knows this and I'm not obviously not going to say what it is on this podcast, but I do have I am a user just like personally in our discord. Ronnie is truly like start getting in there. Yeah, Ronnie is truly. Lurking and you have no idea who she is. I am.

11:30 I am. Dragons in the detail. I'm not secret. You'll know it's me. But yeah, Ronnie's just lurking on there. I'm in there, yeah. You will not know It's me, to be clear. OK, Corrections, omissions, social media shoutouts. Abby, do you have anything to share with the class? I do have some things to share with the class. Let me just make sure I have my notes trades, OK Yeah. And this is more omissions, I think, and like follow up thoughts.

11:55 And one of them I found as I was looking through for this episode. And that's how this usually happens, right? I'll be prepping for this episode. I'll find something and be like, oh, that's really interesting. That's really cool. This first one is that kind of thing where I'm like, I'm not sure this necessarily gives me a new theory or like if this just helps support. I just thought this was a really interesting sentence that we get pretty early on in Onyx Store.

12:16 And this is in chapter 10 and it kind of supports the things we've been talking about with eareds and gifts and venin. And like, what does it mean to have a gift versus a signet? So this is when this is when Violet is first meeting theophany. I'm there across the there across the words in peromial. And like the tornado has just shown up. Garrick has just shown up and basically violets meeting theophany for the first time.

12:39 And this is a big quote. This is a big quote. People quote quite a lot because it's when we find out what an ear it is, it's the first time the word ears ear. It is mentioned in the book, but I thought there was a couple other interesting things happen in this quote. So the passages she turns her hand, her hand, she is the she turns her hand and Garrett crashes to the ground beside me, wheezing as he draws breath. Now tell me she says, which chose you first, the one who gifted you the power of the sky or the Irid? So obviously people are very excited about the Irid part. I thought the sentence the one who gifted you the power of the sky was very interesting, right?

13:12 Two reasons, because we have the gifting again and Tarn gifted her the power of the sky, not Andarna, right. So everyone who's like, oh, she's wielding lightning in the aisles because Andarna is the power of the sky and that's what the ears are like. Not according to this. It's still tern, which I think has always been kind of like there's always been like a little nagging in the back of my mind, like something's not something's not adding up.

13:36 Something's not right with this theory. And I think this is that sentence. I don't have an answer. I don't have an answer, but I just this one is like I read. I was like holy shit like this is really setting off the alarm bells in my head. Yeah, it's interesting because I feel there's two schools of thought basically around signets the way that we've seen them.

13:53 One is that like, well, maybe 3, the obvious 1 is just like that. Signets are the combination of the dragon and the rider. I've basically rejected that, which is a separate problem. That's a me problem. That's like not that's true. Then there's like the Earrid problem, which is, are Earrid signets different? Like are earrids gifting signets? All the other signets are exactly what we think. Or are Dragons just sketchy about signets in general? And are all signets gifts and what you just said about that quote makes me like that lends itself towards the latter, I think, but I don't know.

14:23 OK, well this. Ties nicely into my second corrections and omissions, which I wasn't even thinking about when I did it, but now that I did. All right, so this gets back. OK, so I now I'm going to do the Leosan quote. The Leosan quote that we love, right? And you? The male lowers his gaze. Our very hope have handed this human something far more dangerous to wield, haven't you?

14:40 We've talked about Violet says she developed dreamworking because she missed Andarna. We have called bullshit on that. It's a dreamless sleep. It doesn't make any sense. The earrings imply, as we were just talking about with the gift. Gifts can be given intentionally, right? So Andarna in theory gave Violet dream walking intentionally. I am wondering, this is not based off a ton of evidence. I am wondering, and so maybe it should be a precog theory, but we're going to put it in here in anyway. Do you think Arik, do you think that Aunt Dharna knew that Arik was going to be a precog and she was working with Arik to give Violet the dream walking segment? It doesn't totally work because

15:15 Arik is not yet is not yet a precog at this point in time. So like, it doesn't really work. Like was the like, was the dream walking more intentional than we are led to believe? Like, because as we've said before, like this dreamless sleep thing, this doesn't make any sense. This doesn't add up. And we talked about during dreams, right, that maybe Berwyn has been gifted this signet by the Earids and they needed to counter it basically to have the balance. So I'm wondering if Arik was like somehow involved here. And we know, and I mean, this one's actually really crazy. The more I think about it, the less I think it makes sense. But I definitely.

15:48 I think that the part of what you said about Andarna knowing things that Ark knows and Ark and Andarna may be working like in League somehow, whether intentionally or unintentionally, I actually believe that. And it comes up, I think in either this episode or the next one. Could Arik have influenced and Darna's choice of dream walking? I find that one more difficult.

16:08 Well, yeah, because he hasn't. He hasn't. So it is funny. I went back and looked the first time Violet manifests the dream walking, the first thing that the last thing that has happened is that she has had a conversation with Arik, right? So like those two things are like right next to each other. But he says I can't wait for threshing because then my dad can't can't try to Get Me Out of the school, right. So like threshing hasn't happened yet. He hasn't manifested yet.

16:31 Even if and Darna is like OK, he's going to be a precog. Maybe Andarna knew something. Yeah. That would have like about him or otherwise that would have influenced. I don't know. I need to think more about that before I have an intelligent reaction. OK. All right. Any other omensions or social media shoutouts? For not for this one, OK.

16:51 I have an omission and a social media shout out. So the omission that I wanted to add was actually based off of a comment. So it kind of is both. It's kind of a social media shout out as well. We talked in a prior episode, actually. You brought up that there's a there's a quote in which Berwin says I will hunt you to the ends of the continent and beyond.

17:10 Yeah. So you pointed out, does this mean that there's magic beyond the continent that Vennon can survive off of? Because like, as of right now, we don't have a world in which Vennon can survive without magic, and beyond the continent there is not much magic. That we've yeah, there's definitely some like we know there's some some people commented like, oh, but what about so hell no, I'm like. Yeah, yeah.

17:30 So someone in our comments pointed out, and I, I totally agree with this, the barons are drained. So this problem in a way already presents itself in that the venom occupy mostly drained land. We also know that venom stole daggers and that the alloy has been a thing for a while, even before it was being accused in daggers. Could the Venom have been using alloy to sustain themselves elsewhere?

17:54 And we know that alloy can sustain Venom because Zaden uses it. He drains Violet's conduit in the aisles, and Jack also uses Violet's conduit to sustain himself. I don't know whether we've seen that Venom can imbue, but is this how they've survived? Like have they basically found a way to either imbue things and use them later, or have they allied themselves with certain riders so that they can take stored power reserves elsewhere and stay alive? Like I think that.

18:21 That is, yeah, a possibility. We got a similar comment and I was just like, no, they're using the drag. They're using the daggers to kill Dragons. That's why they're stealing the daggers. But I don't know that that's why they stole the daggers. But I'm more just pointing out they have stuff. Could store power, right? So, but The thing is right, like, yeah, they do have to reimbue the alloy.

18:41 So like how are they doing that? How is that working? That's my question. Because if they're in the Barents and there is no magic to do that, like my understanding and I do think this matters for the conversation we're going to have today is like there is no magic in the Barrens. If a dragon goes to the Barrens, it is the same as them flying across the ocean where there is no magic.

18:58 Like it's not like you bring a magic. It's not like you bring a dragon to the Barrens and suddenly there's magic, right? Like, so, yeah, I don't, I don't know. This is a big question, I think. Like how are the venoms surviving in the Barrens when there's nothing, nothing there? It might be alloy.

19:12 I like the theory that it's the water more honestly. Yeah, And then I have a social media shout out. This is a little bit of a longer one, but I'll try and keep it snappy. This is actually technically an e-mail. I don't know if that counts as social media. It's an e-mail shout out. This is the e-mail you wouldn't let me read.

19:29 Yeah, this. Is the e-mail I asked you not to read? It's not that crazy now that I'm reading it back. But I think it's super interesting because I think it, we don't have all the answers now, but I think we're being set up for learning more in later books. So we have talked about Isaac Mayeri before and Abby, you've theorized that his contribution could have been teaching the Venin runes.

19:46 And for some reason off the back of that he was privately executed. So for for our listeners who are catching up or just who want a refresher, Isaac Mayeri is Liam's father. He was not on the desk. Death scrolls from Caldeer, from the executions after the Tyrus rebellion. And so Violet was like, wait a second, like your father was executed?

20:06 I had no idea because I read every single name on those death scrolls. And Liam tells Violet that he was executed in private and that Liam still had to watch. We got an e-mail from Kirsten asking about the battle at Resin and the crate in the tower that had the Mayuri family Crest on it. I apparently totally blacked that out. And I also kind of conflated it with the lore, which was described as a small iron box.

20:28 Yeah, I went back. I reread this chapter. I unfortunately had to reread Liam's death. So thank you so much, Kirs, for that emotional trauma. But basically, there was a crate of something marked with the Mayuri family Crest in and outbuilding on the other side of the road during the Battle of Wesson, and Dee tells Taran about it. Dee Dee, should we look?

20:50 I actually did look up all the Dragons names, but I didn't think we'd need Dee so I didn't. Look at that, Day tells Taran about it. So that's how Taran finds out about it and Day Day relays that it is, quote, highly unstable and pauses as he released that information. Long story short, Violet and Taran cleverly light up this building and blow up the material in that crate as an offensive move, and we hear no more about it.

21:14 I I hypothesize, and I say this because it's not over, but I think it's really likely that this crate had mayor site. Yeah, definitely. Which is an explosive material that we learn about in iron flame. What do we know about mayor site? It's an OR, but it is not used to make alloy. It can be explosive, both raw or imbued.

21:32 Sloane is the one who reveals to us that it's called Mayor Site. And it's so close to mayor. Right, correct. We use it in arrowheads, other weaponry. It comes up like a few times casually throughout the series. I think it's super interesting. The mayor's site was found in Krovla with Liam's family Crest on it, and Liam died in this battle. I think mayor's site could have been discovery by Liam's father or somehow connected to Liam's father's death and how he died. I don't have like a put my finger on this, like this is what I think happened, but I feel like we're being set up for the Mayori family was super freaking important, important to the Tearish rebellion in like big ways. Like his mother protected the

22:14 entire Tearish population effectively with these runes. Was his father the discoverer creator of mayor site? It's literally named after them. Yeah. And there's actually something that happens even later, like in the chapters that we're about to review towards the end of Onyx Storm, where it could actually be more than just an explosive, because when Theophany pins Violet against the ground, Violet thinks that the Mayor's site hack is going to explode, and it doesn't. Yeah.

22:43 So I think Mayor's site is connected to Isaac Maieri or Mac Bleaham's family, just in general. And I think it's more than just an explosive material. I think you're right. Well, and we we left out that it all did we talk about this, that his death, Mary's death also comes up with Talia and Hidotis. So it is talked about twice across two different books. Like that is always like a hey, pay attention, pay attention. This is important situation.

23:09 I yeah, I like it. They have no notes. I I think you're right. I think we'll find out more. My only thing is I think Mayorsite is MAOR and Mayuri is Mair. Yeah, but Oresight is a common true ending of a. This is actually funny. This is similar word construction gets into my precog theory for what's not for this episode of, well, whatever, But I think it's important. I actually think now that this has been kind of pointed out to me, Rebecca is doing something interesting with like etymology here, which is super fun.

23:40 Maybe. Or maybe she's not, I don't know. Our our theme of this entire podcast is maybe it's something, maybe it's literally. Maybe it's nothing. Yeah, OK, let's get into it. How did you feel about the ending? I loved it. I hated it. I hated it. I loved it. The fact that I could feel so devastated about.

24:03 I mean, let's be real, I read these books in three weeks, right? So, like people, not real people, obviously, but like things I did not know about three weeks ago. And I felt like, fucking gutted. I felt like a friend had died. Yeah, I think it was amazing. And I love, I love that we're going so dark.

24:21 I love it. Like, we're not chickening out. We're not walking back. We are fucking going into the darkness. And I am so here if I'm so happy that we're doing that. Like, I'm so sick of stories where it's like, OK, it's all going to be OK. Like for a different series that we will talk about eventually when characters die, there's certain times where characters die and you're like, oh, well, I already know they're not staying dead. It's going to be fine, right?

24:46 That's not, I don't think that's what's happening. I OK, and I know we might be on opposite sides of this. I do think Zaden will be OK. I I do believe that, like I do believe that, but I love that we are this is this is the arc, right? This is the story. It's going to be getting Zaden back and I'm all fucking here for it. I think it's so brave.

25:05 I think it's so good. I'm just love it and I hate it, but I love it. Yeah. What about you? When I finished this book, I one was the first one to finish it out of anybody. Yeah, you were. Alone in your grief. I was alone and I finished it. I think like later on a week night, like maybe like 11 or 11, I don't know.

25:24 So I had nobody to talk to about what I was going through and all right, like the first time I read Onyx Storm, I was just in a constant state of like, what the fuck is going on? Literally what is going on? And for anybody who read the physical books, you know that this, my God, happens at the bottom of a page. Like the last line is at the bottom of a page. And I turned the page and I saw acknowledgments and I just stared at the ceiling and was like, I can't fucking believe that Rebecca ended this book in this way. I agree with you.

25:56 I think overall she she definitely does not spare our feelings at all. I enjoy that about her writing. I think it's very bold. The ending of this book I think is super, super bold and it's definitely keeping me hooked. But God, I was miserable, like miserable and had nobody to call, nobody to talk to. It was just like I am just sitting in this right now. Here's my.

26:20 Thing worst like sitting in a book post ending feelings I've had ever. The fact that these books, these books which I will admit before I read them, I absolutely wrote off as stupid dragon sex books, right? Like I felt that way having not read them. Never have sex so I don't know why do it once.

26:40 But like, I, the fact that these books could make me feel this way, I was dumbfounded. I was like, I never thought I would be on this, like, emotional journey here. Yeah. And I think, I think we're all feeling it. I think we're all still feeling it. So I wanted to ask you this. I know we had this question prep, but having done all this research for the end of Onic Storm episodes that we're recording, which I'm so excited about, do you still feel, I know you felt hopeless. Do you still feel hopeless or do you feel like there's hope? I don't I don't feel hopeless, but I feel like we're going to get darker.

27:18 Like this is three of five. So I think our lowest point is actually going to be like mid or second-half of book 4. And I do think that we will find some relief in the ending. But I also think I keep in mind, right, that Rebecca is a contemporary author. So I also think there's a way in which this series ends in some like resolution that is devastatingly close to modern day like that this all goes away. Oh, like you're like this, like this ends with no magic and no Dragons and.

27:51 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I have hope that maybe we'll get a Zaidan Violet plot line that we feel OK about in the end, but I also think she could literally just RIP our guts out. Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's any way there's not a devastating sacrifice like I I don't think there's any way that we already know, right. Not everyone's going to make it to the end. Yeah.

28:14 I do think Zaid and Violet make it to the end. Otherwise, what's the fucking point? Yeah, Yeah, honestly, yeah. I know she doesn't care, clearly. Because, like, we're here, right? Talking about this ending that devastated all of us. But I I do think this entire fandom would riot. No, exactly. She has us all in the palm of her hand.

28:35 She can do anything and if she doesn't end it with them together she will lose that and like. Yeah, I do think if she changes this from 5 books to more, I will. And it doesn't in the five books doesn't result in something. OK, I will lose my mind like I will like riot, right? So if it's like if it's like an if I thought you were saying like if it's like an AC guitar where the 5th book is like a different story, I'm OK with an AC guitar because it would mean that the 5th book like resolves in something, right? OK.

29:07 Shall we deep dive? You ready? I'm excited. I'm really excited. All right, I'm nervous. Let's. Start with a recap of timeline of events with no theories involved. Would you like to take us through it? I'm curious where you started because I started quite far back. OK, I started on chapter 65. Where did you start?

29:28 I know I wrote a note that said let's start farther back, but I didn't do it. So do you want to give us a recap of earlier chapter? 58 I'm going to try to keep this super brief because I do feel like this whole conflict starts when Garrick comes back with one of Tana's scales and Mira. I agree. So I'm starting with Garrick coming back with one of Tana's scales and telling Violet that she and Zaden have to come along with Zaden's brother or Theophany will kill Mira. They are then faced with the fact that Mira is being held hostage by Theophany Drake.

29:57 This is being attacked and they need to protect the past. Like those are the three objectives and the three places where people are kind of dispersed and stationed. So Zaden looks to Brennan and is like, you're my tactician, you need to give me a way to accomplish all three. Brennan says that Violin and Zaden are basically the reasons he can't do that because Violet is going to choose everyone over herself and Zaden is going to choose her over everyone.

30:20 So then Violet is forced to choose an objective by her brother and she chooses killing Theophony. So they decide to send Brennan, decides to send Violet, Zaden, Bodie, and Brennan to save Mira. Note that Melgren has already called this battle a loss, meaning he can see the outcome at this point and there's only two rebellion relics attending, so that kind of all checks out. Like if only the four of them are there, Mira's dead. OK.

30:42 They arrive and Theophany has Teina trapped, Mira held at knifepoint and says you didn't bring the brother that I wanted basically. Theophany also mentions that Berwyn is the one who wants him, so that implies like they're working together, which to this point I feel like they have been kind of a. Conflict.

30:57 Yeah. Then Garrick shows up with the ribosted chest and Jack and violets like he's here. Like OK like we fulfilled our end of the bargain, let her go and theof and he's like wait a second. I said I would let Dratha stand not let Mira survive and then slits mirrors throat, which I think is an interesting choice because why slit her throat instead of drain her?

31:16 I don't know. Sloan then shows up with a package from Eric. She is our third rebellion relic, right? And Dane on her tail. And so Sloan is able to siphon energy from Dane to Brennan so that Brennan can save Mira. And Zaden holds everything back with a wall of shadow while this is all happening so that.

31:35 Didn't even occur to me. So Melgren sees up to the point where Mira's throat is slit and assumes she's a loss. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, once Mira is saved, Zaden then leaves her and Bodie, who are charged with fighting Theophany. And he's like, I have to go protect the past. Brendan was also supposed to say with Violet and Bodie, but Bodie suggests he go take mirror with him. So then they're faced with, oh, shit, Tana won't wake. So then Violet sends Taryn away to carry Tana to safety, and Bodie's like, you just sent away our biggest dragon suite. Theophony shows up and a bunch of stuff happens here, but important points.

32:10 Bodie learns he can't counter her. He's like, OK, my signet does not work on Theophony. Theophony is kind of taunting Bodie a bit. This is where we learn that she's a storm warm wielder for the first time and that she was Lilith's balanced, not violets. Violet then sends Bodie away. She's like, you cannot handle this you your signet is effectively useless here.

32:28 Bodie tries to resist, but his dragon grabs him and flies away while he's like kicking and screaming. I kind of picture a toddler being taken away in the middle of a tantrum. Violet expects to die from Theophany slamming her spine into the ground. Basically all of this here is Violet just expecting to be killed by Theophany, but she realizes like I need to stay here and hold off Theophany. And then we cut over to Reese POV. Ree has her squad with the exception of Imogen, Quinn, and Violet.

32:54 Those three are elsewhere. And RE and the squad, the partial squad, are charged with protecting the past She and Fear gun. I looked up how to pronounce the name. I really hope it's right guys. Basically just hold them off and tell Riddick to focus. That's like the crux of Reese POV chapter. He does have a dragon use their riders farsight to see something which I want to talk about later.

33:14 She specifically. Has she does. Yeah, she has her dragon. Ask another dragon to ask their rider what they see. Well, not everyone knows about the Dragon site. We'll get there I guess not everyone knows about the Dragon site, which I do want to talk about because they all have Dragons. We get a nice understanding of Ree and Firga's interactions in this chapter and that Ree is really being conditioned to lead. But Firga is not a leader.

33:36 She is looking to relay Ree's orders in this chapter. So it's a nice like we get a little sense of their dynamic but not much like plot wise really happens here. But then we're back to Violet who has come to terms once again with dying overturning Theophony seems genuinely surprised when Violet is like I will meet now like before I turn like F you kill me. Theophony's like really?

33:57 So Violet frees herself from her battle with Theophany. She and Zaden do a cute little check in with each other. So at this point we know like Zaden's still in combat somewhere and then Violet and Theophany kind of lock into combat. This is where there's a big battle between the two of them. She's Theophany is trying to get Violet to turn. Violet ends up surviving by climbing on top of a Wyvern carcass, avoiding being drained.

34:18 Seagal swoops in and saves Violet and basically punts her over to turn and then return just. Imagining in this scene Violet being just tosssed through the air like. I like a pissed We've already discussed how much I adore sigail by like a pissed off sigail that I think at this point says you're an inconvenient for which there is no adequate measurement.

34:37 Like love her. Yeah, someone on social media was like, oh, this was like the threshing video clip. They were like, oh, Sigail was trying to protect Violet for Zayden. I was like Sigail hates Violet like. She's rolling on her, but she's annoyed for sure. So then Taran and Violet are reunited. They start to game plan.

34:56 Things get fun again. Taran mentions that he can see more than 100 Wyvern between them and Theophany. They are very much still charged with occupying or killing Theophany, Taran also admits. Like Segal has withdrawn from me at this point. I don't know. She and Zadan are going hard somewhere. Like, I don't know what's happening.

35:13 Yeah, when? Theophany is to the east, so Theophany has retreated to the east with all the other Benin. The Wyvern are between, so Taran and Violet are still in the north. Theophany is to the east, the Wyvern are between. The 100 Wyvern are between the Ophany and Violet. Yes then absolutely fucks up some Wyvern 39 to be exact and I literally counted.

35:35 I was like what is going on here? She's pulling multiple boy bolts of lightning from the sky and hitting Wyvern. No, I also counted. Holy shit, she took out almost half of them by herself. Which I find so fun because like we haven't gotten to this part yet but later in Imogens chapters like Imogens keeping count of glanes kills and like Terran is keeping count of violets and I think that's so cute.

35:56 So Violet then is starting to feel herself burn out because she's literally murdered half the Wyvern almost, but cools herself down with some water. She's good. Then Arik shows up with the advance party from Zahilna and he's flying from the direction of the Arctic. Sorry, what's from South from the Ark tile ocean.

36:15 Yes, thank you. Which consists of 1000 soldiers and their horses. They landed somewhere else by accident. Ark brought them here. Classic helping yourself. She's like, I'm recommitting I'm going to kill Theophany. But then we cut over to Imogen. So Imogen is charged with defending Dreyfus. So I think these POV chapters are basically our insight into what's happening in the other places where people are stationed. I do have a complaint about this ending, sure. I think Rebecca was unnecessarily cryptic about the wards going up on Dreyfus.

36:44 Like she never, there's no reason for it to be a secret. Like the whole thing they're trying to do in Dreyfus is imbue enough alloys and daggers so that they can extend the wards to Dreyfus like they do throughout Navarre. That is what is happening in Dreyfus. That is why there's an Armory. That is why Quinn is trying to protect it. And she never fucking explains it. And I'm it's, I don't know why it's so dumb. Like, yeah, yeah.

37:09 Anyway, I don't know either. Like there is, yeah. It's just, it's a basic plot point. It makes sense. There doesn't need to be secrets around it. But yeah, cool. We put it together, Rebecca. We figured it out. Maybe we almost. Feel like there was some like portion of a chapter where Brennan actually explains what everyone's going to do that was just like completely cut.

37:26 Yeah, maybe I don't. But then we cut over to Imogen. Imogen is chasing after Bodie in this crazy vortex of wind that Theophany has dredged up. Yeah, I think this is really important. So Theophany has created a tornado. Tern orders Tern, tern, tern grounds the riot. Tern says nobody fly, nobody fly. And the last thing Violet sees above Dreyfus is core. I think that you say his name.

37:49 Core, core, core. Flying up with Bodie to attack Weiber and it's like fucking Bodie can't stay where he's supposed to. Yeah, and also his dragon is getting like messed up. Fucked up, yeah. Yeah, So Imogen bolts after him. Everyone's supposed to be grounded at this point. Imogen flies after him. We learned that they're kind of running low on weaponry and they need to imbue daggers faster to those words.

38:14 So Imogen is trying to save Bodie, but Bodies Dragon is getting really messed up. He's got like a hole in his wing. He's got a gash in his chest. Dane also launches into battle on calf. Imogen takes note of it. She's like, oh, Dan's breaking all the rules now. So Dane also ignored this order to be grounded or casted. One of them, both of them, Imogen and Glean then just start picking off Wyburn, counting their kills and then they're called to go save the tower.

38:36 So Imogen and Glean gun for that tower. Imogen dismounts to go save Quinn. Imogen runs into Dane, which is interesting. So we just saw him in the sky. She saves him using her earth wielding in that moment where she's suddenly like turning a shield into stone. And Dane is like, we're going to talk about that later to protect them from some flames and then Dane. It's a it's a venom.

38:55 It's a Venom firewheel, so I guess the fire. Wielding is bad. Yeah OK protects them from flames, then Dane runs off to keep defending the tower. Imogen then finds Quinn fighting multiple Venon with her astral projection, which is so badass. And unfortunately Quinn gets stabbed between her ribs and dies in Imogen's arms.

39:12 It's a very sad scene. Recommend, but don't recommend. It is I the first time I read it, I didn't cry. And like the second time I read it, I was like, I'm sad. I'm really sad. Sad actually, I didn't cry until Garrick showed him, which was really sad. So Garrick shows up, Quinn is dead in Imogen's arms, tries to get Imogen to come with him in a rather tender moment, but Imogen is understandably just like losing it.

39:33 So he grabs both Imogen and Quinn's body just. Picks them both. Picks them up. Someone in our comments section called Garrick the Human Barge. Funny to me because that is exactly how I picture him. Garrick shows up, gathers up Quinn and Imogen and walks distance. Walks distance wheels somewhere.

39:52 Armory. Yeah, somewhere within Dreyfus. Yep, where Trissa and Felix are reembuing and preparing weapons. Right. And this is where Rebecca is just like being so cryptic. And I don't really think there's a reason for it. It would be very easy to say we're trying to extend the words to Dreyfus. Yeah, this is when Garrick reveals that he's close to being drained, needs to go find a way to do something.

40:13 And then that's kind of the last time that we see Garrick, I think. Then we jump back to Violet and Taran, who are fighting, and Taran feels Gale get captured. Then Taran himself gets captured, and he and Violet have this really kind of paralyzing fall where violets, like, tuck in your wings, and then they survive the fall.

40:29 The fall is under a net, to be clear. So they get netted. Violet freeze herself right The net. Somehow they knew exactly where Taran was going to be, right? And so again. And so go and dropped a net from the sky. That's interesting, I always pictured it as like hidden in the Cliff and then like spring load it like boop but I don't know. Interesting.

40:49 I kind of pictured Wyvern orchestrating it, but I could be totally wrong. Either could be right. It's probably Wyvern. Yours makes more sense. I don't know, yeah. Anyways they get captured, Violet frees herself from the net at least using some of her emergency rooms that thank God actually work and Taryn is working to free himself but it's taking too long so Violet goes to distract Theophany. So the office.

41:09 She then kind of is like how do I occupy Theophany? She taunts her about Unbriel. This is when Theophany reveals that she feels pain never being allowed to return to Unbriel and the temple of Dune. And this is the infamous quote. She says it would sever the very thing that kept her untouchable all these years. She also says like I'd rather be a God than serve one. Then Dreyfus is enveloped in darkness and the valley that Violet is in everywhere is enveloped in darkness and we know.

41:33 Then somewhere that Zaidan is channeling from the source and Dharna shows up, distracts Theophany. Violet holds a bolt of lightning live from the sky like an absolute badass. I'm like picturing the scene in my head and getting chills. She's literally just holding down a bolt to keep enough light to be able to see Theophany.

41:54 And he stabs her. She strikes in the dark, Theophany bleeds, she desiccates, and in doing this, Violet realizes Arc is a precog. She releases the bolt. She collapses. That's the last we see of Violet in this particular scene. I think she realizes it as the darkness is sweet. She realizes it before she strikes theophony, right? Like I think she reads it on Terence. Back Yeah, as she strikes theophony. Like as she realizes though the stagger is going to kill theophony, she realizes Arc is a pregog. And this is also the note where we get. I pray she does not have to use it to avoid reacquainting herself.

42:26 Yes. The reacquaintance. Reacquaintance. Yeah, this is where we get the note from the priestess, High Priestess of Unreal to Auric, but seemingly about Violet, where she says from 1 servant of Doom to another, a gift from 1 servant of Doom to another. I will. I pray that she will not have to use it to avoid reappointing herself of the other.

42:44 That curries her favor. It's really upsetting, but I didn't have that written down anywhere and I could basically recount it. Yeah, concerning. Then we switch over to Zanes POV. There's one major character we've left out here, and that is Jack. Jack. Bodie was on his hands and knees, retching somewhere.

43:00 Sorry, yes, last time we see Bodie, he's on his hand, on his hands and knees, on his hands and fucking knees retching in the middle of drapus. So we so we're told Jack is in the ribosad chest and has been returned to Orisha by Garrick, not to basgayeth to Orisha. So So background and setting for the Zadam POV chapter. I know we don't usually do this, but so much happens in this chapter.

43:23 I think it's important to kind of set the scene. So they are at a hidden Sunso Canyon South of Dreyfus. I went back when I was rereading these chapters and I thought the most important thing was going to be the timeline. How do these events line up with each other? I now think that's actually not true.

43:37 It's the geography, it's where everyone is on the map that really matters. So for our listeners, just to kind of draw this out, Dreyfus is in the middle here. To the West of Dreyfus is the Cliffs of Dreylor. They're trying to evacuate the city through the Cliffs of Dreylor so that everyone can get up to Arisha and be within the wards and be within safety. The wards only extend to the Cliffs of Dreylor at this point. They are not in Dreyfus.

44:01 So we have the Cliffs of Dreylor on the West. We have Dreyfus in the middle where Theophany has taken Mira, where Violet and Brennan and Zaden and Bodie land is north of Dreyfus at first. So that's so that's important. So that crew up here is north of Dreyfus. Dreyfus is in the middle. The Vennon are attacking from the east, from the Barrett. So we have N we have Violet, Bodie, Zaden, Garrick shows up eventually, Theophany, Mira, etcetera. Brennan, we have Ree, Sawyer and Riddick. We have our iron squad on the cliffs of Dreylor and people trying to evacuate the city.

44:34 And then we have the Vennon coming from the east. Chapter 65 takes this place South of Dreyfus, so this is the first time we've been South of Dreyfus. This is the first time we've gotten action here, so it's kind of important to think about. I think it's less about the time, I think it's more about where people could get and when and right before Chapter 65, where we have left people.

44:54 Imogen, Bodie and Garrick are in Dreyfus. They're in the city. Brennan and the Iron Squad are on cliffs of Dreylor. So Brennan has taken Tyna to the cliffs of Dreylor to get him healed and everything. Ben and are still coming from the east, Theophany and Violet are now, and Terran are now in the mountains northeast of Dreyfus. So everyone has left the field north of Dreyfus. Zaden and Berwyn and others are in the Cliff South of Dreyfus. Did I get that right?

45:20 Did I miss anything? That was all from memory. Yeah, I think you got it. Yeah. All right, so we're on a hidden sun soap Canyon South of Dreyfus. Not a sunburned field. Still, I know we talked about the dreams last week. Not a sunburned field. Not anything we've seen in any of the dreams. We're not on a field.

45:34 We're on a hidden sun soap Canyon South of Dreyfus. There are two Ven and standing gardens at the mouth of the Canyon. In quote UN quote ridiculous robes. Seagal is 20 feet in front of Zeidan Panchuk, our traitorous asshole. Panchuk is also on the Canyon with his dragon. His dragon is also in a net. So Seagal and Canyon and Panchuk's dragon, whose name we never learned, both captured in Nets. There is mention of a brother.

45:57 We do not know where the brother is at this point in time, but we know there is a brother somewhere. He is around. Well, there's a brother next to an unconscious. Sorry, yes, yeah. Seemingly close to Panchuk, there's an unconscious dragon and lying in the valley beyond the Canyon guarded by 7 Wyvern.

46:13 So in total we have 6 people, 2 Venning guards, Dayton, Berwyn, Pancheck, the brothers. So that's six people, three Dragons, The Gale, Pancheck's dragon, unconscious dragon in the valley. We have 7 Wyvern guarding the dragon. This is going to become important. I don't know if it's important for you, it's important for me. So that's kind of our setting in terms of the things that actually happened.

46:32 In this chapter, Dayton sees Berwyn kill Pancheck's dragon with an alloy hill to dagger. And then Berman says, you see what just happened? That's what's about to happen to your dragon, right? So then he channels to save Segal. He says like fuck, like that's not going to happen. So he channels to save Segal.

46:47 Segal says like you have resisted his ploys all afternoon, do not channel to save me now. We have Satan say that there's only one path that leaves Segal alive. Right, we have. Right so. So we have the people, the Dragons, and the Wyvern at the Canon, Zaden and Segal. Segal is in a net. We have Pan Chick and his dragon in a net. We have a couple interesting things happen. So we have a couple interesting quotes here I just want to read. I think they're going to be important later. The bond between Berwyn and me is the kind that should never exist.

47:15 And now that my sage has another sibling he can use against me, I'm screwed. All right, so we have the second brother, the other sibling. I glanced past Berwyn, past the Gale in the Venin, to my new brother and the unconscious dragon lying in the valley beyond the Canyon, guarded by 7 Wyvern. How could he do this, choose this after watching me stumble and fall over the last five months? How could he willingly walk the path I fought like hell to leave?

47:36 He's the last person I ever would have expected to turn, and yet here we are. So that's Zaden's reflections on the brother. Then we have Pan. Check. Say I'm the only one who can give you access to your son, and Berwyn says I have another. And then he stabs Panchex dragon. Panchex dragon dies from the alloy hill to dagger.

47:53 This is Aiden's oh fuck moment. What the fuck? And then Berwyn says, Aiden, did you see what just happened? That's what's about to happen to your dragon. This is when Zaden channels from the ground and his shadows come out thick as tar and black as ink, which is interesting. I don't think they've ever been described as thick as tar before. Like that's kind of a new a new thing. Shadows plant the daggers in the chest of the two venon standing guard.

48:17 Shadows drag Berwyn from Zagale and knock the venom unconscious and knocks out the new brother. It kills the Wyvern, rips the rune stones out of them, and then it goes to Dreyfus kills every Wyvern and Dreyfus tears the net from Seagal tells tears the heart out of the Wyvern, who has Dane and Kath backed into a corner. Rushes over Imogen as she looks to the sky. And the last we saw Imogen, she said the sky darkens. Not clear to me if this is all happening concurrently. I kind of don't think it is.

48:47 We can get into that later, but it rushes over Imogen as she looks to the sky. Jaden shoves theophony to the ground and caresses Violet with his shadows. Zaden remembers that he loves Violet. We get no wait. Zaden lifts his hands up. And then we have a line about pulling back from the magic that burns because the wards have been extended to Drake this and the wards were always up in Orisha.

49:07 That's important too. All right, I thought it would be fun. Now we're getting into the deep dive. We've done the we don't usually do recaps. I hope you guys enjoyed that recap. I know it was maybe not my best recording. Ronnie, I think you did a fucking great job. Thank you for that. We're getting into deep dive, Ronnie.

49:24 I thought it would be fun if we, our first question is who is the brother? I thought it would be fun if we just went 321 and then we said who is the brother? All right. Now, but I structured this as all the people I think could be the brother and why and why not? Hold on, let me decide quickly. OK, you decide, because I also did that. So no, let's do it your way.

49:40 Let's do it your way. I need a moment. I think it will be fun. OK, I'm going to caveat it with I think multiple people have turned by the end of this book, but I will say who I think the brother is. OK, ready 3. 21 Eric Bodie Yes. All right, let's discuss. I think Bodie turned. Let's discuss. OK, so who is the brother? I think so.

50:00 I listed four people, but really only three that I have substantial stuff. I'm going to be honest with you, you've just rocked my world. Arc wasn't even on my list and he fucking should have been. I'm an idiot. OK, well I have stuff on him for and against, so I'll maybe I'll just list off all the people on my list and then we can each do our reasons It could reasons it couldn't be.

50:18 Does that work? OK, the first person I had is Bodhi, so reasons it could be Bodhi. We last see Bodhi on his hands and knees in the town square. Retching hands and knees could imply you're just retching, but also could imply that you're channeling from the earth. Seems reasonable. His dragon is also unaccounted for, but we know he was getting literally taken apart because Imogen was flying after him. We saw there was a hole in his wing, a wound in his chest. So we know his dragon was in dire straits. And we know that the new brother has an unconscious dragon lying somewhere around.

50:47 Bodie knew for all five months. That's an important thing that we learn about the brother. And also, like, all of the subsequent things that happen make sense. If Bodie is Venom and cannot be the Duke of Tyrandor, Zaden says it's the only way after he sees the new brother, right? Well, yeah, it is if Bodie is turned.

51:05 So I think there's a lot of pros for Bodie. There's reasons, though, that I think it's hard to believe that it is Bodie. Zaden says things with a lot of disgust. He's like this the one who now thinks my brother sounds like it's referring to the new brother. But this doesn't fit for Bodhi. Like Bodhi has always thought of himself as Satan's brother.

51:24 Like they have been close relatives, they're cousins, but they've been basically brothers. He. So I think and we can get it. I know we have another question of the one who I think we have another question, the one who thinks. Himself we do so I knew that you thought those were two different people I.

51:36 Think they're two different people? I actually don't think one of them is a person at all. We'll get that. OK, he's also not confirmed missing in the book. So we know that Garrick is confirmed missing from the last chapter, but we don't get Bodhi as confirmed missing. So just a point that like he may still be around. Zadan says that he's the last person he'd expect to turn, which I think is surprising for Bodhi. Like I feel like Zadan should fully expect Bodhi to be reckless and follow in his path.

52:02 Like I would expect Bodhi to be like, yeah, I'm going to like if Zadan's going to go in inside man with the venom and fuck up the venom, like same. And also Zadan knocks him out. So Zadan knocks the new brother and Berwyn out at the end of this chapter, which seems unwise if he wants to fight alongside the person who turned. OK.

52:20 What is your case for Boding? OK, so I laid it out like you did. I'm like, OK, the person who has done this has known about Satan for the past five months, right? So basically that's Violet image and Garrick or Bodie, I forgot about Aric. You are right. Aric has also known for the past five months.

52:37 We just don't talk about it as much because Violet didn't know that the problems with the first person narrator anyway. All right, so basically the options are Garrick and Bodie, right? As far as far as I can tell, yeah. Arguments for Bodie, as you said, can't stop Theophany's storm wielding. So he feels that he he is not enough.

52:54 He does not have enough power. Violet specifically says maybe you can't counter their power like Vennon's power. So maybe he thinks, OK, but if I become Vennon then I can counter Vennon and that is a very powerful signet to have. Yep. As previously mentioned in our recap, Bodhi is such a fucking brat In this battle, Bodhi is the worst. He will not listen to orders.

53:18 He will not go where he's supposed. To toddler, yeah. He's being a fucking toddler. He literally like he does not listen to Terence orders. Can you imagine not listening to Taryn? Like are you fucking stupid? He fights against the Wyvern Core is in a really bad state at the end of this as we mentioned.

53:36 Let me keep sending him into battles so. And he keeps like, he put Imogen in danger and Imogen is even like, Bodie does not understand Bodie does not recognize the importance of his place in all this. Like, right, if Zaden goes, Bodie is the only hope we have or they're going to put a Nevarian nobility on the throne and she's like, and I will fucking die before I see that happen. So like Bodie just in general does not fucking get it. She literally says I grit my teeth. He doesn't get it if we lose both him and RE Orson. Sorry, RE Orson Tieran falls to whomever the king of points. I'd rather die than see an A very an aristocrat on the burned throne.

54:12 Mom and Katrina died defending, all right. Court is wounded as we discussed, has a slash on his chest image and sees him on his hands and knees. My final nail in the coffin for Bodie is what you mentioned. Zaden says you saw what happened. It is the only way. This whole book, this whole book, I know everyone says this whole book is a proposal to Violet, yes, Also no. This whole book is Zaden shoring up his backup plans for Tyranor. It is Zaden making sure that if he leaves, that Tyranor is going to be safe.

54:42 Bodie was backup plan #1 but Bodie has failed, so Violet becomes backup plan #2 right? And Zaden says it is the only way. The only way is marrying Violet and making her Duchess of Tierrendor to make sure that Tierrendor does not fall into Nevarian. So in my mind, that's kind of the nail in the coffin.

55:00 That's like, OK, it, it, it has to be Bodhi. It can't. And at this point, there's only one brother, right? So at this point, it can't be. It doesn't matter if it's Garrick. If Garrick turns Ven and that's fine. It doesn't matter for the line of succession. Same with Arik. I'm so curious to hear your thoughts on why Arik is the brother.

55:16 I feel compelled to mention like when Zaden says it's the only way because I, I feel like people are going to call us out for this. Like I definitely subscribe to the belief that Zaden still puts Violet above Tyrandor in terms of like needing to protect Tyrandor versus Violet. Like totally think that's true. But I think, and we're going to talk more about like what this means.

55:36 It is the only way. Like it's the only path. Now. I do think that like probably what Zaden is getting at is like it is the only way to resolve all of this and protecting and securing tier Endor is a key piece of that. Absolutely. And I said that in our Zadan episode too, right? Like that tier Endor and protecting tier Endor and protecting Violet are one and the same to him.

55:56 I think, I don't think we know the details of that, but he has said I will put you above tier Endor, right? So it either had to be Bodi protecting tier Endor or Violet protecting tier Endor for whatever reason. That's incredibly important and this is the only way to do it. And right, I think this is interesting with RX Signet too, because and this just occurred to me, but yeah, I think there were multiple paths here and arc was like, this is what could happen, but this is what has to happen.

56:20 If Bodie turns, this is what you have to do, right? It is the only way. Zaden says to GAIL, you saw what happened. It is the only way. She glances over her shoulder. And you think she'll help? Zaden says she loves me. She'll help. It comes out with a hell of a lot more certainty than I feel she promised. And what Violet promised is.

56:38 And this is when Zaden finds out he's the Duke of Tyrandor way, way back in chapter 6, right? He says it's not fair and you might hate me for it later, but I need you to make me a promise. His warm hands cut the back of my neck as his eyes search minds. Swear you'll sound the alarm if I go too far. Go too far that you'll keep it safe even if it's from me. Tell me what my tell me what the King gave you. He takes a deep breath.

56:58 He gave me back my title and the seat in the scenario. Holy shit, my left part. Not just Arisha either, he gave me Tyrion door. Zayden says slowly, like he can't believe it either. So it seems, and I will admit Rebecca's doing like the her normal fuckery where we're dealing with pronouns instead of outright saying things, but it seems that Zayden is calling back to Violet's promise to protect here and or to keep it safe even if it's from him.

57:20 So that to me is why it has to be Bodie, because it's the line of succession is no longer safe. Yep. Yeah. I mean, I think I would be surprised if Bodie is not then like, yeah, I think there's a really strong case for it. Yeah. OK, Garrick. So I think reasons that Garrick could be the brother he is unaccounted for.

57:41 He's confirmed missing at the end of the book and he was out of power after rescuing Imogen and walking away. Imogen also asks about him at the end, and so was it her testing them to see whether anyone had found him as Benin? I don't know, but I think it's interesting that she specifically asked about him. We know she's in love with him, but that's a different thing. He knew about Zayden for all five months. He also fits that bill.

58:04 There was some very specific, and you've read this out on this podcast before. If anyone's been listening in order, there's some very specific word play that could have been construed in a couple ways. When Garrick was coming to get Imogen and Quinn with stone grey ink under him as he walked. Every read that passage like 5 times trying to figure it out. Trying to like understand exactly what was happening and I think it is very intentional that I still cannot figure out what exactly was happening.

58:30 I think, like I do think we were led to believe that it is the vennon under them draining the stones. So it almost seems like, OK, for context for everyone, this is the scene where Imogen goes into the tower, finds Quinn, and the Vennon is like, basically, Quinn has died. She's basically holding Quinn on the stairs.

58:49 Yeah, and the way it is worded, it almost seems like the stones are being drained from both the top and the bottom. Kind of like it's very confusing where the draining is coming from. Yeah, it's confusing. It's. Confusing and I know like I know Rebecca at this point, like I don't personally know you Rebecca, if you ever hear this, but like I feel.

59:10 Like God if I ever meet her. Queen, I feel like I'm catching your style where you're intentionally writing the things that make us think it could be something or it could be something else. But yes, there's very specific words about stones graying as Garrick is stepping down the stairs when he's coming to get Imogen and Quinn.

59:27 And finally, and this is kind of a teaser for our next episode, I really struggle to understand how Violet could have gotten back to Orisha when Taryn is in a cycle of rest and then Dorna has a bum wing so. That's my first question, yeah. How does Violet get back to Orisha? Yeah. So I think there's like there are ways for sure. We'll talk about all of them in the next episode. But I think there is a strong case for it having been aided by Garrick.

59:51 And if that in that case, like Garrick at the end of this battle, is completely shot, he has no power left. OK, so here's why and this this is going to go a little bit a little bit of spoiler, but here's why. It can't be if Garrick is Venon, it can't be Garrick that brought them back because the Arishan wards are working and are keeping out the venom, right? Zadan says.

1:00:11 The magic that burns. So if Garrick is Venom, he can't be wielding in Arisha. He cannot be the ones that brought them back. Which is part of why I don't think Garrick is Venom actually. I have a potential explanation for this. I don't know if it's cold, but we'll talk about the next episode. Yeah. Yeah, but I agree with you.

1:00:27 Yeah, the oration words are actually working the oration. Words actually work, unlike the bad guys. Do not. But for anybody who's confused, that magic that burns at the touch where Zayden's like Zayden's channeling, he says I fall back at the magic that burns at the touch. We interpret that to be the award, the awards of Orisha that are actually fucking working.

1:00:46 Yeah, and her So when everyone is like, why are the best guy with words so fucking bad? Why does nothing work? The oration words have not been fucked with by then and for I'm assuming centuries at this point, and they work correctly. Is our theory as my theory? Is our theory. Yeah, Yeah, great reasons it might not be.

1:01:02 Eric kind of the same as as Bodie Zayden speaks with this like distaste about him. The distaste is a little bit more believable since he and Zaden did not grow up as like equip like basically brothers. But they kind of did, right? Like Garrick was. Damn. No, I mean he calls him Teddy. Bear yeah.

1:01:20 So again, I'm not sure that Garrick would be the last person that Zaden would expect to turn. They've been doing things together for their literal entire lives. Zaden knocks him out, but definitely still could be Garrick. I have a hard time disproving with the exception of what you just brought up.

1:01:34 I I struggle saying like absolutely could not be Garrick. I'm I'm curious to hear about Eric, but like I'm convinced it's Bodie because he marries because of the succession thing. Like I think that's think that's the nail. I think that's just the nail in the coffin. I think it has to be Bodie, and he's on his fucking hands and knees. Like that's a pretty like, yeah, all right, but tell me about. Arc, I agree with you.

1:01:56 I think like the the obvious answer, given everything we know is Bodie. OK, I'm also going to say this is my only obvious answer for this entire pot in the next pot, so you guys got better. Buckle up, because shit's going to get weird from here. I feel like I have a lot of I I tried to stay pretty rained in on this one.

1:02:12 We'll see. How good. I didn't. Let's see what happens. That's kind of normal. OK so Arc I want to talk about Arc. He returned with the army from Zahilna so we know he was around at this time. He could have known about Zaden for a while given his signet. Like as soon as in my view, as soon as Arc started manifesting, there had to be some knowledge of Zaden at that point.

1:02:40 I also think that this truly would have been the last person Zaden would have expected to turn because Arc has had it out for the Venom since literally the second he was allowed to be conscripted anywhere. He came to the riders squadron to do something about the Venom. So to me, like that would be the last person I would expect to turn and Zaden given everything.

1:03:01 And Zaden, again, talks about his brother like he's annoyed and betrayed, and he knocks him out. And he's like, God, this fucking guy. Like, I can't believe he now thinks himself my brother. And we have reason to believe that Zadan and Arc kind of get along in secret or that Satan says he has complicated loyalty towards someone we assume to be Arc.

1:03:20 But Arc hates Zadan for what he did to his brother Alec. Like they do not, like, in real life, in front of other people, get along at all. Yeah. And really, the only reason that I have that might not be Arc is like, admittedly just a mental reason for me. The exact same reasons Aidan would expect, wouldn't expect him to turn. Like he came out of spite against his family for not doing anything about the venom.

1:03:46 So to become them, unless he goes in knowing that he's going to be able to do something about them is shocking, right? Like he's basically giving up his life and he says like, I will probably die in this in this battle, I'll fight and die. So to become venom, to become immortal, to join that side is challenging. Like I can see a path, right?

1:04:05 Like to fight from the inside. I can see a path, but I see. What you're saying? Up a bit more for me. I see what you're saying. In my mind, the one who thinks himself the brother is a different thing. So I think that's why, yeah, I think that's why I'm not on that train. And the other thing is someone has to stay with Violet. I know we're going to talk about who the four riders are missing, the four missing riders next time, but someone who knows everything that's been going on has to stay with Violet. Yeah.

1:04:33 To protect her, right? I'm not saying that's Arik. Yeah, but someone has to. They can't just abandoned her, right? So I think that's just something we should keep in. Mind too, I also included Riddick in this list because I've seen so many people try and throw Riddick into this mix. I struggle with it again guys, I don't think I can't rationalize it.

1:04:53 I know that he feels like he's not enough frequently and like he wants to be in the quest squad and he's like being rebellious in yeah, his chapter, but like. Well, but Reese chapter is also where he freezes A Wyvern with his bare hands. Yeah, and Rebecca said the person who turns as someone who felt like they weren't enough during the battle. Yeah, and I think the only people that fit that bill are Bodie and Garrick.

1:05:18 And I guess Arik could because he was gone for half of it. But we don't ever get his POB. We don't ever get. Yeah, I mean are actually that though like and again, I don't watch any of Rebecca's interviews, unfortunately not just not by choice. Now that you say that though, like ARC did bring back an entire advance army.

1:05:36 Arc brought back. Yeah, he brought an army, so unless, yes, he felt that way. And so he did that, right, because he doesn't have a signet that's helpful for battle at all. Oh. My God, he has the most helpful signet for. Battle, yeah, but he can't. He's not helpful in combat. Sure, sure. I don't know.

1:05:53 I don't know. I'm Team Bodie. Team Bodie is the brother. Like I'm team Bodie, I think Bodie is venom at the end of this for sure. Yeah. I kind of think Garrick is, and I also maybe think, yeah, I don't know. All right, let's talk about the one who thinks himself the brother. Yeah, I think we need to kind of read this line for line. Sure.

1:06:13 So I'll go back up to the quotes that I have here. Hold on, I have this. I can easily get it. Yeah, OK, Sorry. I do have the whole thing. All right, so the the, the setting of the scene is Zaden has just channeled to save Segal. He has thrown 2 daggers to the ground, channeled, caught those daggers, stabbed them in the chest of the two venom that are standing guard at the edge of the Canyon.

1:06:35 So those two Venom are gone. That's done. The quote is, and this is kind of a long passage. Shadow drags Berwyn from Seagal and knocks both him and my new brother unconscious. Shadow brings quiet. So Berwyn and the new brother are unconscious, right? My soul, this is, this is the the scene. My soul departs like pieces of ash from a fire, flaking free and drifting away as power consumes the space it once inhabited. I'm no longer on the ice.

1:07:02 I am the ice, and still I feed, tunneling deep into the source of magic and surging outward, simultaneously finding the identical heartbeats that mark Wyvern and slicing through scale with shadow, ripping their rune stones free. I start with the one who dared set its teeth in Segal's shoulder, skim past the one who now thinks himself my brother, then destroy the six blocking the entrance to this Canyon.

1:07:27 So Ronnie, if you remember when I was setting the scene for this, I said there were 7 Wyvern guarding an unconscious dragon in the valley. We have here the brother already in conscious, and then we have the shadows spreading out to kill 7 Wyvern and skimming past the one who thinks himself my brother. So when I said I don't think the brother is a human, I think the brother might be a dragon.

1:07:53 The one who thinks himself the brother might be a dragon. I think it might be core because I think that Bodie is the brother. But like, the way this sentence was phrased, the way everyone is set up, why would like it seems to be pointed to this dragon. So what is going on with this dragon? And we've talked about kind of the hive mindedness. What is going on with this dragon that Zaden now refers to him as the one who thinks himself my brother? I see your puzzled book.

1:08:19 I'm intrigued. Well, two things like one, there's, there's now. Thinks themselves. Thinks himself my brothers. So you're assuming that this is the dragon of the brother, Brother, the new brother. The new brother, Yeah. OK. I don't know that I necessarily like disagree with that. They're basically 1 entity at that point, right?

1:08:36 Yeah. Maybe. However, hold on, let me, I'm looking for a specific quote. So what we have prior to that is Zaden's POV says I glanced past Berwyn, past Segal and the Vennon, to my new brother and the unconscious dragon lying in the valley beyond the Canyon guarded by 7 and Wyvern. It sounds like the new brother and the unconscious dragon are together.

1:09:00 Yeah I agree, but Shadow drags Berwyn from Seagal and knocks both him and my new brother unconscious, so it's unclear where the new brother is. Like is the new brother next to Berwyn or is the new brother next to the dragon? In my mind I could be wrong. It could be the one who thinks himself my brother is the same as the brother.

1:09:18 That is most likely what's happening. I'm going to be boring here and say I think that's it, but I like the train of thought. Yeah, I will say it's not Jack. It's important to note that it's not Jack that. It is not Jack. Jack is in Arisha. Jack is not here. Jack's in the ribastad chest. He's gone. Jack is not in this can.

1:09:34 I love the next question though for. That reason? I know. All right, So it's not Jack. Yeah. I was just thinking maybe this was the dragon. Maybe it's not that interesting. A line of thought. And if it's, I mean, if it's the dragon, then it's interesting because are there Dragons allied with Venin?

1:09:49 Right, well, right. So like why the resent if it's the dragon, why so much resentment towards core when there's not the resentment towards Bodhi seemingly right? This is the first time where he says the one who thinks himself my brother versus just my new sibling, my brother, right. Why the resentment towards the dragon rather than the the rider? OK, my official answer on this is I do think they're the same, however I appreciate it.

1:10:14 This is actually really funny I wrote in my notes. We know that initiates in Asians can sense each other, so presumably Zaden can sense Bodie. Does this also open a line for Zaden to cure to core? And with Zadas intention reading can he now read course thoughts? And underneath in all caps I wrote stretch.

1:10:29 This is a stretch. Yeah, I mean, yeah, we actually got tons of comments about the line that we both like where Taryn says don't read me human or don't try to read me human. I honestly still like I'm a little bit in my Veronica just like be normal era right now, which is like it is very accepted knowledge for both Flyers and riders that you are not supposed to stare at a dragon for too long.

1:10:54 And so, like, is staring at a dragon for too long making them feel like you are trying to read them in some? And are there reasons for that? I think we talk about that at some point. Not now. Yeah. All right. Okay. So the one who thinks himself his brother might be a dragon, might just be the brother, but it's definitely not Jack. It's not Jack, Definitely not Jack. That's a really important take away. Yeah.

1:11:15 Yeah, cool. OK, so the next question we asked ourselves is who is Berwyn's son and who is the other son? So for context, Pancheck says to Berwyn, I'm the only one who can give you access to your son, and Berwyn says I have another, and then kills Pancheck's dragon. The son that Pancheck is referring to, I'll just say it straight outright, like it is probably Drac and the other son is probably the new brother. But let's talk about let's talk about like, why might it not be? I could see quote access to your son as something way more interesting.

1:11:48 And so I went down a weird path where I thought about whose father's we don't know. Yes, I'm looking at your reaction whether I'm like completely going off the. Rails No, no, no, because, because Pancheck. Pancheck says I'm the only one who can give you access to your son. And what Berwyn says is I have another. What he should have said is I have others because at this point in time he has both Zaden and the brother. So right he says I have another implying one but he should have implied 2.

1:12:17 So this might not be about then and at all it might be about actual sons right? So then who the fuck is Berwyn's son and his other son? Yeah, whose fathers don't we know? Bodie's has never mentioned, hardly ever. I mean, we know that he's cousins with Zaden, but it's Fen's sister. That's Bodie's mother. And also Bodie has has mentioned, like, I'd love to see my mother again.

1:12:41 He does not mention his father. Garrick's father is mentioned. He was Fen's right hand, and he's presumed dead via execution. I think it's interesting to think about the Bodie line and the Zaden line and the Grandpa Ryerson potential here. What are your thoughts? So I, I went a slightly different way and I thought, OK, who do we know? I said who are the important sons rather than who are the important fathers, right?

1:13:08 And I said, OK, who does Panchak have access to? Any cadet at Basgayeth, right? So who are the important sons in this story? Zaden, He is an only son. But you're right, he has a cousin Brennan. Brennan is an only son Dane only son. Arc is not an only son. And we actually got a comment about this. So Arc is not an only son.

1:13:26 Arc has a brother, Arc is a cadet at Baz Gaiath and King Tari could not find him. I don't think it's Ark. I don't think King Tari is Berwyn because then like what is the entire point of this war, right? Like it doesn't really make any sense and King Tari can still get to Baz Gaiath. But I thought that was an interesting point. I don't have an answer here.

1:13:45 I don't have an answer here. But I do think that this might mean a literal son rather than a rather than a Bennett son. I think The Who I have another is a pointing towards. We're not talking about Bennett right now. We are talking about actual sons and might be someone's father. What thoughts are going through your head right now?

1:14:01 Well, I was. Just I was trying to pull, I was trying to see if I was smart enough to do this live, like pulling the grandpa Ryerson thread. So if Berwyn is Grandpa Ryerson, I wish I had my Zaden family tree that we drew a long time ago. Wait. I think I had my I. Was going down a path of like Oh my God, what if Pancheck because Pancheck was high up at Bizgayeth, right?

1:14:22 Like what if we have talked before about like if if anybody who was executed by dragon fire was venom, they are not actually dead right? Like we agree with that, I think generally. Yes, yeah. So like if Fenn or anybody who was executed, Isaac, whatever were vennon at the time of execution and the son of Berwyn, literal or non, then they could still be alive and being like suspended somewhere or drugged. I don't know.

1:14:48 I don't have a great, I don't have a great one for this. But I do think we're pulling on some good threats here, yeah. Could be nothing as per usual. Could be nothing, could be a literal son, yes, All right. Who is the other initiate that wants to kill their sage? Such a fun question. All right, the quote is. I don't actually have the quote down. Do you ever written down?

1:15:08 The quote is. I wonder how many initiates feel the same about their sage. At least one that I know of. OK, so that's the quote. And this is, this is after Zaden has talked about his bond with burden, with burden, with Berwick and why he can't kill him even though he really wants to. And then he says, I wonder how many initiates feel about this, the same about their sage.

1:15:27 How many initiates does Zaden know? As far as we know, Jack is the only one, right? And it doesn't seem like Jack really wants to kill Bert when Jack seems pretty gung ho about the whole thing. Yep. Right. All right, so this is where this is where the crazy comes out, because I think the answer is Naolan.

1:15:45 What do you think? Oh, I definitely think the answer is Naolan. Wonderful. I have that written down great great all right so why could it be about Naolan? We've gone into depth we've gone into depth about why Naolan might be venom. You guys have had thoughts on it. One woman was like no, Rebecca said in an interview.

1:16:01 He's dead. Like he's definitely dead. And I'm like, I hear you. I hear what you're saying, but she's not about to say no. He's a Vennon, is she? Rebecca tells us the truth about as much as the Dragons do. That's. The way that I used to think about, yeah. I mean, like, what are you going to do? Give away the fucking whatever.

1:16:16 All right, So maybe it's not Naolan, but Zadan certainly knows a Vennon, right? Zadan certainly knows a Vennon on the inside. He knows them well enough. I'm assuming it's. He knows them well enough either to have read their intentions and know that they want to kill their sage or to have talked to them.

1:16:29 And I think it's interesting, right? Because I was going back and reading a quote, I didn't write it down, but someone said what we trade for power basically is our freedom, right? Because we have to obey the calls of our sage. So even for Venin to be having these thoughts, I think is really interesting and like not what they expected at all. Like I think it's kind of a mind control thing and it's not working all right, so.

1:16:51 Was summoned like I definitely. Right. Zadan was summoned. Troll lasts like there as we give up our autonomy for access to unfettered power. I think the control is a big issue. Here, Yeah. And there's a quote early, I think it's chapter like 56 or something, where Zadan is trying to push his shadows at Theophany and they're like summoned South.

1:17:13 And Violet goes, that was really weird, what the fuck was that about like And then she's like, I'll think about it later. And then we find out that Berwyn is South of Dreyfus and has been summoning Zadan, right? So it's like they literally can't use their powers when their sage is summoning them. Yeah, All right, so why it could be Naolan?

1:17:30 Violet asks. Zadan, how long have you known about Brennan? She says. How long did you know about Brennan? He exhales slowly. I've known about Brennan since his death, right? And if Naolan was so intertwined in Brennan's death, and if Naolan turned Vennon, then Zadan has known about Naolan being Vennon since Brennan's death.

1:17:47 Why is Aiden so sure there's no cure? Because he's seen Naolan go through exactly the same thing that he's going through right now and has not found a cure, right? So Naolan also turned for love, still hasn't found a cure. We know the ruins can contain the venom right? We know that Tieran Dor is riddled with ruins. So if Naolan has turned, it is possible that he is somewhere in Tieran Dor but being kind of fed. Same situation with Jack being fed by the alloy being contained by the ruins so that he can't hurt anyone. I'm not sure if he's a prisoner or if he's just like loyally working with with the rebellion right? But like we, we have been told that ruins can contain Benin and we know that Tieran Dori is like

1:18:28 capital hotspot of ruins. Let me see what else I have here. I also, for what it's worth, so I, I, I'll share mine after the fact, but I totally think it's Naylen just as a spoiler. I don't necessarily think that it means Naylen has to like, be still around, still working with Satan, even still alive. If Zayn knew of somebody else who turned who hated their sage, like, to me, it doesn't need to go that deep. Like if Zayn knows that Naylen became Benin, yeah, that qualifies.

1:18:56 Yeah, yeah. And but I think the other, I think the other piece of this that a lot of people overlook, right? Everyone's like, oh, Naolan is Venom, so he must be evil, right? Like he's, he's the sage, he's he's the big bad. Like that's what we're working towards. Zadan is proof that all venom aren't evil, right?

1:19:13 Like Zadan is proof that you can turn and still feel love and feel things. And like, I don't know, like he's willing to go to Brennan and say, I need a cure. I need, we need to fix this, right? Is that because Brennan has been going through the exact same thing with Naolan and would understand the situation that Zadan is now in? Yeah, Yeah.

1:19:34 Your thoughts? I went through the same list. Like Zadan clearly knows an initiate who hates their sage or knew someone who was once an initiate who hated their sage. Jack does not hate Berwyn. I do think there's a case for this being the new brother. You can think of one. It's the person who just turned. And then I had some other initiate that we aren't aware of, but Zadan is.

1:19:54 And so I do think that it could be somebody else. But I think like based on everything we know and I've talked about, Nailin is the most. Most interesting, I just think it's Nailin. It's just because because like you said, Zadan has known about Brennan since his death. If Nailin brought Brennan back, then he had to have known what happens, which to me is actually really hard. Like that's the hardest thing to reconcile with because then he's just been keeping that.

1:20:19 Like he's been holding that this whole time. And probably. Zadan keeps secrets. Zadan, Segal and Taryn, all of them. Yeah, what does Taryn say? Terrance says. Like I promise not to keep any secrets from you that could jeopardize you at the beginning of Iron Flame, right? Like. I mean, Taryn does get a little bit of a pass because Violet knows the entire time that Dragons cannot be Full disclosure with their riders.

1:20:42 Like, there's not. But I think she does assume that it's about dragon matters, not, you know, human matters that have something to do with her direct sibling. So I feel like there's going to be some betrayal in store for us, but release feelings of betrayal. I think we're going to get. I don't think we're done with secrets, put it that way. I mean, turns together proof that there's no way we can be done with.

1:21:02 My actual next week for my corrections, omissions and social media. I have one that's like, okay, Zayden is clearly still keeping secrets, but it's in a very sweet way. You'll see. OK, OK, cool. It's Naola. This was not as long as I thought it was going to me. I thought there would be a lot of back.

1:21:18 And forth here. Nope, I agree. Great. OK, what does Berwyn have that Zaden needs so shortly after this? Actually, literally right after this, Zaden says he says that thing about initiates. This is at least one that I know of, but beyond the physical impossibility of it, he has something I need, and I'm no longer an initiate.

1:21:38 We're interpreting here that Zadan needs something from Berwyn. So I made a list of the things that Berwyn has and the things that Zadan needs, and I just want to talk about them. So what are the things that we have seen Berwyn have the sword of Tierendor? We've seen that to clarify, in a dream.

1:21:53 So we don't know that Berwyn physically has it, but we have seen. I mean, last we saw, Zaden had it. Last we saw it in real life, Satan. Yeah, yeah, Zayden's new brother, Berwyn has now this, this new brother. It seems Jack is Jack significant? I don't know but. Berwyn doesn't really have Zach, Jack, Zach. Does not really have Jack yeah Jack and Risha dream walking. I think the thing that Berwyn has that Zayden needs is dream walking.

1:22:17 He's the only other Dream Walker and I I think there's the link that could be the reason Zayden needs it. I also think there's the knowledge of what it can do exactly that Zayden needs Violet to have in order for this whole plan that he brings the ice downpour and shows the Gale to play out. I think he needs to be able to communicate with Violet, and he needs Violet to know how to use Dream walking to its full extent.

1:22:40 I Yep, that was it. It's dream walking. I want to give some honorable mentions and also go through what Zayden needs. So Berwyn also has a bunch of venom. So is there someone else who turned under Berwyn that Zaden needs? Like Jack has told us that they give up autonomy for access to unfettered power. So it's possible that these bonds are totally permanent. And in that case, Berwyn has a lot of people. Like he could have tearish citizens per Amish citizens. Like we don't know right?

1:23:06 Who's under Berwyn? What does they need? Violet? A cure to Venn ISM, a way to protect and save Segal. I want to talk about the cure to Venn ISM part for a second because I think the venom know how to cure venin. Theophany wrote to Violet. Why do you not ask me for the answers you so desperately seek?

1:23:22 Violet directly implies after that that she either knows that they're looking for Irids, or she knows that they're looking for a cure. And Jack also says, why don't you ask me what you actually want to know? And Jack says there is no cure because we do not wish to be cured, right? There's no cure that's possible at all. I want to talk about something a little bit unrelated here, but let me leave it here.

1:23:44 Like Zayden needs a cure to venetism. I think the venom know how to cure vennetism and just do not want to. Yeah, so I put the same, I literally had the same train of thought. It's fun when we do this. So, all right, what does Zeta need? Zeta needs first to protect Violet, then to protect here and or I did not put to protect Segal on this list because I think he's already kind of done that. But first to protect Violet, then to protect for theophany offers Violet knowledge and control. So can Berwyn offer Zayden the same thing? So I came to the same conclusion. He's probably looking for some kind of knowledge from Berwyn. I think he's given up on a cure.

1:24:16 So the the options there are basically cure or how to how to manage dreamwalking, right? I think he's given up on a cure. So I don't necessarily think Zayden's looking for that. Maybe he doesn't want to be here. Like Jack said, maybe he's like, OK, actually, this is this is my fate. I made this choice.

1:24:31 I will sit with it. But, and I know you don't listen to Rebecca's interviews, but Rebecca said on a Denver, on the Denver SAB of her book tour, there's only one person alive who can teach Violet about her second segment. Berwyn is that person. We know that Berwyn is that person, right? So Berwyn's not going to give up this information on his own, right?

1:24:49 So Zeta needs to figure out a way how to get this information from Berwyn and back to Violet again. It might be free dream walking. It might be some other way. I don't know. But Zaden somehow needs to get that information from Berwyn like Violet's not. Berwyn's not going to teach Violet how to do this on her own. She would be that would be an insane thing for him to do. She's her, she's his enemy.

1:25:11 So I, I came to the same thing and I, and then I added because we have this awesome theory from Lovebug about the bond between Zeidan and Berwyn being broken and Dharna breaks the bond between Zeidan and Berwyn. Zeidan is somehow my theory is Zeidan somehow holding Berwyn with runes maybe in another ribosaid chest. Probably going to be somehow getting this information out of him in the next book.

1:25:35 So either torture or mind reading or something else. But somehow this is about dream walking. In my opinion, yeah. Yeah on the cure point, this is not related. I want to slap someone in this book for not having and Dharna try anything while changing her scales. Like she says, magic feels different. I altered the venom while I was changing my scales. Magic feels different while I was changing my scales like and my girl like.

1:26:02 We gotta try something while you're changing your scales. I did wonder whether to your point on who taught who gave Berwyn dream walking. If Berwyn has an earid, then they may know that earids can change Benin somehow. Like, is that why they want them? I don't know. But yeah, like we got to try something while you're changing your scales because we.

1:26:21 Got to try something. We tried nothing that was troubled. Nothing. We. Did no science like what's this guys? Find some other ones. When we had one right in front of us, we could have tested some stuff out with like, I don't know. Anyways, yeah, whoever. Was running that vennen study, Needs to come back and run an eared study.

1:26:38 Right. OK, Abby, why was it the only way? Well we talked about this I think when I made this question I didn't have my answer for who was the brother but the only way being because Bodie channeled. So this is the only way because they need to get Violet onto the throne of Shirin Door to protect her and to protect your Endor.

1:26:55 Yeah. And just to rebuke anything about like maybe Ark saw something that makes this the only way, he says. You saw what happened. It is the only way. So it is a direct result of something that has already happened. And I do think it is about who turned and. Yeah. And I think this gets into Arc Signet. We talked about this a little bit previous in this episode, but we've we've talked about whether Arc Signet is like he sees the future and this is it, or if there's like a number of paths that can be taken.

1:27:25 And I think this shows us that there are paths that can be taken and that Arc offers you choices, fate offers you choices, but Arc sees the different choices and then the different ways that things could play out based on that. Yep, which I think is very very interesting. And he basically has to like play 3 dimensional chess and get all the pieces. Well, yeah.

1:27:47 And I, as part of my answer to this question, I noted that the words every possible path is said nine times. Yeah, holy. Shit, yeah. All referenced to finding a cure. So I actually have a quote from this part of the story from Zayden. A clamoring, consuming emotion pounds at the ice, but I keep. Channeling.

1:28:08 Yeah, he's channeling. She has her own. Own path. No matter what I choose, it's wrong. But only one path leaves Seagal alive. So I think Zayden has been reading our exponential paths the entire time, and I think actually and Darna has been too. And I think the three of them know all the paths. And Zayden knew in that moment that his head narrowed down to 1.

1:28:29 This is it. This is it. This is the only way. Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I totally agree that and Darna has also been involved in this scheming the whole time. Yeah, the whole time. The whole time, yeah, I don't have quotes for that. It's just a gut feeling, just. A gut feeling. But I mean her showing up when she does also, which we'll get into in the next episode. I added one question but I don't. Know.

1:28:51 Great. No, I didn't see it, sorry. No, no, it's totally fine. I had it because I just wanted to talk about one specific thing. What is the purpose of RE and Imogen's POV chapters? Like why do we have them if you want to go first? Do you want to improv this? Yes I so I've told you I've read POV chapter like 4 times. I've been like, what the fuck are we getting out of this? I think there's two things.

1:29:16 One, it establishes where they are. It establishes the geography, like we talked about it tells you. And there's mention of like Dragons on top of the cliffs, and one of them is a brown dragon. So people were like, like Tradra is injured and like that's why Garrick turns, but it's not because he's off somewhere else. So I think we're supposed to understand that there are Dragons there, but those are not the Dragons. I think it establishes where they are. I think, and this is a teaser for next episode. I think RE plays a part in the 12 hours. And I'll tell you what I think she does when we get there. But I was racking my head about this and like why the fuck are we getting a RE chapter?

1:29:55 I think it's because she is involved in that and this is setting us up for that. Imogen I think was because we need to see Bodie on his hands and knees stretching. I think we need someone in Dreyfus. I mean, a couple important things happen, right? We get Dane learning about the second signets and Imogen's POV chapter we get I think we're going to get more Imogen POV chapters. That's at least my hope because I really enjoyed it. I think we'll get more in the next book and I think that's setting this up because she might know what happened in those 12 hours.

1:30:25 But again, I think it's to kind of establish who the brother is, is basically my. Thinking yeah, I mean, I think we get plot notes. We get important plot notes from Imogen's POV. Like I think that's totally true. She also mentions at one point that she hadn't seen Shadows in 20 minutes and she was supposed to be in Dreyfus with where Zayden was also.

1:30:44 Right, right, right, right, right. So like, where was he? What was he doing? Like, I think that was important and I think Ree's also, I'm curious and now I'm super curious what you're going to say in our next episode. But I think Ree was an important proof point of exposure to what other relationships with Dragons are like. Ree runs the show there and we get like a view into what it's like when the rider is the leader and the dragon is not necessarily like she's relaying orders and actually taking orders.

1:31:13 Ree as well. We also got this Farsight thing and I just can't, my brain can't erase it. So to just take us back for a moment, this this this re chapter happens before Taryn says the gift of our site is afforded to few right. So in Ryan's chapter, she asks Veert to ask Baylor, I think how many Wyvern Baylor thieves.

1:31:34 So Ree is asking her dragon to ask another dragon to ask their rider how many Wyvern they see using their farsight implied and they relay it and that's the end of that in the next. I don't know if it's the next chapter or the following one. Violet asks Taryn why does farsight even exist if you can see that far? And Taryn says kind of as an offhanded comment. The gift of our site is afforded to few and violets. Like OK this makes me think one of two things. And they're both like admittedly a little bit off off kilter. So like I accept these are a little weird. One is re being lied to about the Dragon's ability to see. Like shall we be suspecting fear goes loyalties? Anything about that?

1:32:12 Like why is it just not mentioned to her at all but it's mentioned to Violet? Don't know. 2 is something going on with Taryn where Taryn is able to see how many Wyvern or know how many Wyvern are there not based on his site and he's lying. I don't know. Like his, he's a like he's part of the hive mind.

1:32:30 He's part of the hive mind because. Naolan is a. Vanderbond to somebody else, that can be it. Yeah. Like, yeah, I don't know, Like those two things don't add up. OK, so we know. Black Dragons see far? I don't know. So we know that Violets magic is attracted to the Wyvern and that's how she takes out 3738 of them. But her magic is really Terence magic. So yeah, I mean, maybe it is.

1:32:54 Maybe it is Terran. And now I'm going back to like the one who thinks himself my brother too, right? Because we talked about all right, let's let's walk down crazy train with Abby here, OK? Well I want to the runes are ruined to hold power I think to begin with. So the fact that her power is attracted to runes could just be any pure powers. Any power.

1:33:15 Any power. But like, OK, so let's say the one who thinks himself my brother is the dragon, and let's say Naolan is a venom. I'm. Definitely saying the second one. And Tarn has stayed bonded with Naolan, as we've talked about being a possibility. Is Tarn in this Wyvern network now? Is he, is he tapped into it?

1:33:35 Is he a spy because one of his writers is a Venom? I don't know. I don't know. But he says he can't sense them in Arisha at the cliffs of Draylor when the venom when the Wyvern attack. Yeah. Yeah, so never mind. As per usual, we still know nothing. Yeah, we know that something's up with that. I actually remembered reading those two things further apart than they actually were. They're too close together.

1:33:56 I'm shocked. I'm shocked by that. But you're totally right. I thought the Farsi thing happened way earlier. Yeah. No, it was at the end after we had re Acid Dragon to ask a dragon to ask their writer. The fuck? Like OK, have you seen the theory that Violet is part dragon? I've seen that theory about her having consumed Irid egg shells. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.

1:34:19 I don't know if that makes her part dragon. But I I agree. I agree but if there's something to that, is that why Taran is like sharing farsight? And is it like no other human gets to know about Farsight, but Violet can know because she's part dragon or something like that? Yeah. And is every other human able to see through their Dragon's eyes?

1:34:35 Like that's never really confirmed for us either. When Violet gets the relic after threshing is it Andarnas eyes or is it tans eyes that she sees through? I don't know that it matters but has she ever seen through Andarnas eyes? I. Thought it was Andarnas. Eyes. I think it was Andarnas eyes too.

1:34:51 Yeah, the relic, but she's also definitely seen through Taryn's eyes. Yeah, she definitely has. Yeah, so that was one of my proof points in our first ever episode for White Violet needs to walk in minds, right? Yeah, yeah. But if everyone can do that, then like that's not really that valid. It's such a weird, I mean, we've talked about Farsight.

1:35:06 I never thought when we started this journey we would talk so much about Farsight, but I'm glad that we have. Yeah, just being like the weirdest fucking signet ever. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think the most likely Occam's razor answer here is just that Ferga is not What is it? Sorry, Ferga is not being entirely truthful with Ree. Ree is not is not Privy to everything that Violet is Privy to with Tan.

1:35:30 Yeah. Yeah. And what does that mean for Ree now that she's fighting, like kind of officially on this side? I don't know. Yeah, it's not. I don't know. Yeah. Or is Fearga just not as powerful as totally possible? Yeah. Or is it like. Yeah, they're also different colored Dragons. I don't know what each Yeah.

1:35:46 Breed then can do. I don't know. All right, Precog, Precog corner. You want me to go first? It's gonna be crazier than mine, so you should take the Thunder. I had to kind of split my precog corner theories between these two episodes and I chose the better one for the next one. So I did too. Shit, sorry everyone. All right, so we've talked about Zaden being potentially A venom offspring.

1:36:07 We talked about Zaden, Violet and Dane being our big three for potentially being offspring. And in fucking classic fashion, I think we forgot about Bodi because if for his grandma rear sitting then Bodi might also be then an offspring we've also talked about. Sister is also of that same grandfather. Yeah, yeah, but it would be Fen's sister would be. But Grandpa reader, we've talked about Ryerson like was great was Grant grand uncle on paper.

1:36:40 So if Fen's sister was of the true line, then. OK, so we're talking about the potential twin scenario here, basically where Fen and his sister would be twins, which we talked about way back in the Zaid and deep dive. Yeah, go listen to it. It's two parts. It's crazy. Yeah, all right. And we talked about what Bodhi's name means, but I want, I went back and I googled. I'm like, OK, what does Bodhi's name exactly mean? So I'm just going to read you the full. I know we all hate AI, but like the AI Recap of what Bodhi's name means.

1:37:10 Origin and meaning Bodhi originates from the Sanskrit language and translates to awakening or enlightenment. Buddhism connection. The name is deeply associated with Buddhism, where it represents the state of enlightenment attained by Siddartha Gautama, the Buddha under the Bodhi tree. So now we have a Bodhi tree and we have awakening and enlightenment, spiritual significance. Bodhi symbolizes the ultimate goal of Buddhism, which is to achieve spiritual awakening and freedom from the cycle of life and death.

1:37:35 I think that's really interesting with his cygnet. And I think that's really interesting with him being potentially then in offspring that evolves, right? Like that goes towards like because Buddhism you have the cycles of life like in regeneration and you're always trying to evolve towards that like perfect life and like you're achieving Nirvana basically, right?

1:37:54 I'm sure I just horribly bushid Buddhist and I'm really sorry guys. I took world religion in 8th grade. So that's what I remember. If you have a better explanation, please let us know. But basically like you are always trying to live a better life so that you can get better and better, right. So if, if Bodie, if Bodie is this venom offspring, is he the one that is going to evolve, that is going to lead them towards this enlightenment, towards this Nirvana, especially if he is now Bennett, like he if he is one of them, is he going to kind of be the one to like lead them out of the desert Moses style? That was that's part of my pre card theory. The second part is this tree thing, the Bodhi tree. I mentioned a long time ago that

1:38:31 I thought the one who watched was very similar to the three eyed Raven in the tree in Game of Thrones, like someone who can just see everything at once. We don't know Bodhi second segment. And I realized that this is way out of left field, but this is what pre card corner is for. But like is Bodhi kind of the bat?

1:38:47 It could Bodhi be the balance for that? Could he be the one who's in the tree kind of looking at everything? I don't really think that one is true, but I thought it was fun to think of Bodie's name in terms of this Benin offspring, assuming the twin theory holds. Yeah, I mean, I totally agree. And I think I brought it up in our signet episode that like Bodie's name plus his signet might mean that like the Nirvana, like the goal of this story is that magic is countered, is down.

1:39:13 Like we're not seeing it. We're not doing it. I I definitely think that the lack of, like, knowledge about Bodie's lineage could mean that he's then in offspring. I don't see a reason not to believe that, especially since we've literally learned nothing about his father. Yeah, feels feels as fishy as the fact that we've learned nothing about Dane's mother 0. What if Bodie just is Zayden's brother? They talk about that a lot.

1:39:36 You don't mean through incest, but yeah. No, I don't think I do. I think I mean no, I guess I do. So let's take it aback. Let's not. I mean, because like best case, they're cousins, right? So. I was, I was thinking about, I was getting like Berwyn and Fen mixed up in my mind. Well, also. Like, I don't know if if Talia, I don't know, had a second son and then Fen's sister just adopt. I don't know why that would be true. So I don't know, Yeah.

1:40:01 Yeah, well, thanks. Never mind. Brought it back. My brain's not working today apparently. I have two pre called corner theories, neither of which I'm obsessed with so I'm just going to pick one at random. If we hate it, I can just go with the second one. All right, let's do it. OK, so I think we're this doesn't even happen in this episode. Whatever.

1:40:21 All right, my precord corner theory is about venom and their ability to sense pain. We have seen and discussed one case of this and that's Jack in his cell sensing the memory of violets pain, which is really odd. And like not actually anything that we've seen out of venom at all, like an ability to sense pain and the memory of it.

1:40:44 And so I just kind of dismissed that as like weird. Is it Jack Signet? Is it Vennon ISM? Like I think Rebecca has maybe said that. Yeah, Rebecca has said it's a venom. It's abandoned thing, yeah. There's another point at which we see Vennon sensing pain. Zaden senses Segal is in pain when they are in Deverelli, even though he literally can't feel her. Like their bond is broken, there's no magic, and he knows she's in pain.

1:41:09 How does he know that she's in pain? She doesn't have the ability to communicate. I don't know. Can't you tell when Rory's in pain? Yeah, but she could have just been pissed. Yeah, that's true. Like that, she's not. And Violet even says to Taryn, are you in pain? Yeah, right. Yeah. And Taryn was like, why would I tell you that? You're in pain all the time.

1:41:27 Yeah, so again, I have brought up, and I don't think you loved it, the idea of Venom being a dedicated form, right? Like dedicated to Malik or some God of pain and suffering that allows them to sense pain and death. Like what if Venom's power, I know they just take direct power, but what if they also have power specific to like who they're dedicated to, where they can sense pain, sense death?

1:41:54 I don't know. But it just feels like a non coincidence that Venom are able to sense pain. They have a physical manifestation of the power that they've taken, which is the red, the red eyes, yes, for sure ranched veins coming out of them. And they're all coming stemming from the Bay of Malik and the water. Like, I don't know, maybe I'm doubling down on this one. Maybe I'm doubling down on Venom being dedicated to me. I have a.

1:42:18 Lot of thoughts but it's going to have to be next episode. OK, fine. Sorry Freak on corner theory, Venom, consense pain. Are they dedicated? I definitely think Venom consent. I definitely think I totally agree with you on that one. I'm all about banning consens pain. OK, yeah, do you want to do your other one for fun too?

1:42:34 We'll do it for fun. It's short. There is a quote that made me read it 3 times and I'm curious whether you read it 3 times as well. When we were doing this read it was in Ree's chapter where she's looking at Riddick and the quote is Riddick stares at the northern peak, not the path through the valley just South of it. Like he could see straight through the thing if he tried hard enough.

1:42:53 Yeah, I think he was looking at Violet like where Violet was. Yeah, he was looking at Violet. That's where. Yeah. So right after that recess, like we should be there. That's where Violet is. So we know that like he's looking towards Violet. And at first I was like, well, is Riddick just in love with Violet? Like, I kind of feel like we've been. Everyone said fucking.

1:43:12 With Violet, a lot of things that would make us think that's the case, but I'm wondering whether this is an indication of another signet that we don't know about. Or could it just be farsight because really doesn't realize that every dragon has fucking farsight. Yeah. Could it be Farsight? Is there a signet where you can see through things?

1:43:29 It just feels like very intentional wording, like he could see straight through the thing if he tried hard enough. Yeah, I think it could be. There's no reason only the marked ones have second signets. Right. Like if it's truly tied to the dragon seeking you out and bonding you because of who their your parents were.

1:43:44 And I don't think we know anything about Riddick's. No, we don't know. Yeah, I don't even remember where he's from. I think we are told at one point, but. I think we're told something about where he's from. I agree with you, but I don't think we're told anything about whether his parents are writers or infantry or anything else. So I don't know.

1:43:58 Not allowed to stand on, but that's the kind of the point. Kind of the whole point. All right, if you want to do what we're reading, because I have things to fucking say. Oh yeah, then you should go because I'm just, I'll start. I mean, I'm reading nothing because I'm in a deep dark work hole. But my plan, I think, I think I'm like not excited about my rereads or excited about reading in general right now because I'm not reading anything new.

1:44:22 And so I think I'm going to start the Shepherd King duology. I haven't heard of that one. It's let me see what the title of the first one it is. The first book is 1 Dark Widow and the second is 2 Twisted Crowns. Fun. Is it romantic? Yeah, OK, so I'm excited. Let me know in the comments with that's a terrible idea, but honestly by the time this is out I probably will have already started it.

1:44:44 Actually, I was going to do a different reading corner because I'm kind of reading two things. But I'll just say since we're talking about books you might like, it's just fucking flies everywhere. I started a book this morning. Derek actually read this book in one sitting yesterday. It's kind of a Nobela and I have been reading nothing but Sarah J Maas books for the past six weeks.

1:45:03 I'm on Throne of Glass and I'm like, I need to read something else. This is like, I like it, but like this is too much of one thing. So there's a book called This is How You Lose the Time War. I don't Derek won't tell me much about it because he wants me to read it and enjoy it. I'm only two chapters in, but I think it's great already and it's it's sci-fi, but it's like sci-fi romanticy, kind of like it is a love story.

1:45:25 It's a gay love story, which I'm all about. It's two women. I am really enjoying it. It seems to be a quick read. I think you would probably really enjoy it. I'll tell you when I'm done with it, but I'm two chapters into that. I started that this morning and it's really great because it's not too long and it's a good palate cleanser for Sarah J Mass, which I guess I'll rant about in the next Reading corner because I don't want want to give it all away, right?

1:45:46 Yeah, fair. All right, social media. Social media, yes. So we are on just about everything you can possibly think of. We are Dragons in the Details pod on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube. Our e-mail address is dragonsinthedetailspod@gmail.com if you would like to leave us a note there. We love it. And we are on Spotify, Amazon, Apple, any podcasting platform that you can possibly think of. Please do check us out.

1:46:14 It's where we get like tons of our interactions, engagement, make episodes, responding to your comments. So we really love to hear from you and your comments just make us better. Truly. I try to stay away from like other podcasts about this topic so that I'm not like taking other people's theories unknowingly or subconsciously, but your comments make me think about things that I've certainly not thought of.

1:46:35 So we love them, we appreciate you. And please do review rate subscribe. It really helps us out because we're itty bitty and finding our way. Figuring it out like Violent book 1. Like Violet and book 1. Did you mention discord? Oh, and we have a discord, Discord server, it's all LinkedIn, basically everything.

1:46:51 It's in our episode notes, yeah. It's in our episode notes, it's linked to our Instagram link to our TikTok, but the Discord server is super fun. As Abby mentioned the beginning of the episode, it's really just a place for you guys to talk and respond to each other's theories and get all of your Onyx Storm crazy out. We've heard from some of the members that like it's a great place for if your friends didn't love. Yeah, or if they just didn't love them as much as you did, which is the situation Ronnie and I are in. Like our friends read it but they would not sit and talk about it for hours.

1:47:21 Yeah, they would not. Yeah, we love them. We do. Yeah. All right, all right, that's it all folks. See you in Part 2. Love you. Bye. Love you. Bye.