Onyx Storm: History Part 2 - The Second Krovlan Uprising, The Tyrrish Rebellion and Other Fun Stuff

0:20 All right, so I got to confess something to you too. OK, what I until about 3 minutes ago was heavily reading Throne of Glass. So my mind is in Throne of Glass world right now and I have to switch. Well, I'm happy for you. How far are in are you? I'm like halfway through book, a little less than halfway through book 1. And you're reading Throne of Glass first. I'm reading Throne of Glass 1st.

0:42 I believe in reading things in the order that they were published. You. Did the same exact thing for the same exact reason, so yeah. That's my stance on that. I know others might feel differently, but like people. Get up in arms about the reading order of the series. It's kind of crazy. And I. Love you guys for it but.

1:01 The same thing where I'm desperately trying to avoid spoilers. I will I know I, I, I got spoiled that one person dies, but then you find out very early in this book that he's already dead and I was like, OK, fine, that's great. Other than that, I know absolutely nothing like right now we're in a love triangle.

1:18 I truly have no idea how it ends. I'm very. You have to stay off social media. Like please please I'll do what you spoil. Me, I'll do. Whatever you want. I know I'm so scared and I'm even like I was like because I have like an idea in my mind, but there's always fan art, right? So I'm like Googling images of fan art and I'm like, I'm kind of like this of like no deal again, because whenever you.

1:41 Get spoiled. Abby's putting her hands over her eyes for those who are listening with audio. I've been seeing a lot of people recently on social media put their hand on the book as the meeting and like moving it down. I've never done this in my life, but I think it's the funniest thing ever. People like I don't want to.

2:00 Know I have to when I get to the and I think This is why there's a lot of reasons I like paperback more there's a lot of reasons to like Kindle too but yeah like with Kendall you just you can't like really cover it up I'm like. Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. Anyways, hi, I'm Ronnie and this is Dragons in the Details, where we pick apart our favorite fantasy series over the course of an undetermined number of episodes. Still undetermined.

2:26 I think we're still getting requests to like cover different topics, so we need to sort out our schedule for how many of these are actually left. Yeah, we think just when we think we're done, they pull us back in. This season, if you're new here, is focused on the Imperium series by Rebecca Yaros. If you are new here, you're welcome to start here. You're welcome to start at the beginning. Pick your own adventure podcast.

2:48 Use your own adventure. Just quick disclaimer, these episodes contain spoilers up through Onyx Storm. If you have not finished Onyx Storm, do not Pasco. Do not collect $200. Please leave now, save this, come back later. And also due to the contest of the series, this podcast is rated R and should only be listened to by mature audiences. Each week we're diving into a specific, specific topic in depth and that's been our structure. We're coming with receipts.

3:12 We have quotes to back up any theories until we come up with them on the fly. And then we do not have quotes, but we find them most of the time. I would say we're pretty good about saying like, hold the phone, let's find the quote. And you guys have been great at coming with receipts, which is awesome because there's nothing I love more than a well structured discourse and argument. So thank you for coming with quotes. I the emails we're getting, the DMS, we're getting these like you guys are typing these full quotes. I'm so impressed.

3:39 So thank you for that. It's wonderful. No, we had one person and I still have it on my to do. I think it'll probably be next mailbag to follow up. We had one person e-mail us with like all all of the times they could record on when Violet gets dizzy. Yeah, which is something that we've had like in our backlog, but it literally requires a full reread with that intent because like it's crazy. You guys are rock stars.

4:00 Keep it up and we will keep replying. I think we've been replying to everything. Yeah. I. I, we're doing the best we can. I at this point, it used to be like for corrections and omissions and social media shout outs, I would like pull it together the day before. Now I literally just have a running list.

4:15 I'm like, OK, what are we going to do this episode? What are we going to do next episode? I just screenshot, yeah, anytime I'm replying to a comment and I'm like oh, I should bring this up. I try and screenshot it as best I can. OK. This episode is Part 2 of our history deep dive. So in this episode we're going to be focusing on things like the second Krovlin uprising, the Tears rebellion, other speculation on history.

4:36 I would strongly recommend listening to History Part 1 first, which was our last episode that we released that covers the origin story, the Great War, the unification. I just feel like it's a better place to start. Not entirely. Choose your own adventure. Sorry guys, a little we're recommended.

4:55 This time we planned to do a Part 1 and a Part 2, so we've planned it much better than our last Part 1, Part 2 episode. But we were, we were brand new then guys, so. True. At least forget this. The Ogs know that. We talked about Zaden for three hours and we're like, yeah, we need to chop this in half.

5:13 That was the second episode we ever recorded and we didn't really know how to podcast yet. We still don't really know how to podcast. Yeah, we're really winging it as best we can here. OK, announcements. Yeah. It's our first announcement section, guys. First announcement section, we are now on Discord. Abby, do you want to talk about the request we got to open up a Discord?

5:37 OK, their name is and I'm so sorry if I butcher this, Gabija Konopacha is going to be my guess. I'm not totally sure how you pronounce that. I believe she's Lithuanian. But thank you Gabija. Great idea. So we have started to discord and we have different topics on there. So obviously we have Imperian theory spoilers, but we also have like a book recommendation thread that's been getting some awesome suggestions. I personally just finished my bedtime book and asked for input and got some great suggestion, but now I'm so into Throne of Glass I don't know that I'll have the brain power to read. You're done.

6:14 You're done. You're not reading anything else for the next month. I'm so sorry. I know cuz we have this. OK so secrets out guys. Ronnie and I have like a girls trip. I guess it's not a girls trip the guys are coming to but we've a trip planned for next weekend. I'm like how many of these books should I bring? We're like just me.

6:29 I would bring like 2 to 3 but like we gotta have friend time. To Oh, so you bought the full series? No, but I I will. I will. Buy the I mean, I would just buy the next one on Kindle just so you have it. You're probably gonna end up buying it anyway. I'm gonna finish throwing a glass before before we go up for sure.

6:45 I think I need to buy the next two. I think I need to have the next two books. Yeah, so there's book recommended anyway, getting back to discord, which is the point of discovers, which is the point. So yeah, we have we have channels for off topic stuff. We have channels for book racks. We have imperium spoiler heavy thread.

7:01 We haven't talked 1 hasn't gotten much much discourse. Yes, I think because we're talking in so many other places about it, but we also have like an episode reaction channel, so you guys can tell us how you think we're doing or just talk about our episodes in general. Yeah, it's been really fun so far. A lot of people are already on it, which is great, and it's just really positive environment talking about books. Love it.

7:23 I will say because I'm just going to be this person of the two of us. I think because it's been happening a bit on TikTok. If you are mean, we'll kick you out. Don't be mean to other people. It's not cool. Fucking mean. Just be nice. Yeah, just be nice. Just be nice. Just be nice. Yeah. So right thing to do.

7:42 So now we have a Discord which is super exciting. And because we've gotten some emails, some comments within that Discord, we are going to announce to you all. I think you've probably already figured it out based on our What are you reading at the end of each podcast? You're all. Real smart because you come in with your awesome theory. So you have figured this out if you want to figure this out. So season 2 of this podcast is going to be on the the A court of Thorns and Roses series by Sarah J Maas. I was going to make a quip and then I decided not to. But yes.

8:17 So those who are well versed in the mass universe, hopefully that's exciting. A court of Thorns and Roses is I think the book that got me reeled me like kind of head first into romantic. See, we also know obviously that she has two other series that are very famous, Crescent City and Throat of Glass, and Abby is bravely playing catch up so that when you guys to our comment sections about theories from across the universe, hopefully they're not rampant spoilers.

8:44 We are going to try to focus on on a Court of Thorns and Roses kind of as its own entity and limit kind of the cross universe to a specific section. So if you haven't read the other two series then you'll be okay and we'll tell you when to. Yeah, right. So I think so. OK, first of all, I'm just it's just dawning on me that before we start recording season 2, which I'm hoping is not that far in the future, I have to do my a guitar reread and finish off the glass. You're just going to get spoiled if you don't. By the way, mass versus spoilers here. Sorry.

9:15 Yeah, like, maybe we just make a revolver at everything. Yeah, we'll see. We'll see. Anyways, Season 2A guitar. You got it here first. Unless you weren't people that we already secretly told. Yeah. You probably didn't. All right, corrections, omissions and social media shout outs. Abby, do you have any to share with the class? Yeah, I do.

9:37 All right, so the first one is an omission. So in History Part 1 we talked about the possibility of runes being an ancient language with actual meaning rather than just, I don't know, being nonsense symbols. And I said wait, don't the Dragons have their own language? I remembered there was a quote about the Dragons having their own language. I found it.

9:55 So the Dragons do have their own language. The quote is and the the scenario is Iron flame chapter 45. They're about to learn about runes actually, ironically. So I think it's funny that Rebecca, or maybe not funny that Rebecca put this in here so close to when we're learning about runes. Riddick it is and Dharna is in her Moody teenage years, right?

10:16 And Riddick accidentally calls her a mini Terran. Basically he calls her a mini me and she gets pissed off that he called her small and Violet says nowhere, no more spending time with Segal. I mean it. She's rubbing off on you and says I could only be so lucky, and Darna lifts her head, preening and Tan grumble something in his own language so that there is a dragon language.

10:38 So I think it's intriguing the idea that runes are a logosyllabic language and that the Dragons have their own language. However, Dragons still don't have opposable thumbs. They can't write. It's not a written language. They cannot so. Like I don't know that that works. I don't think it's the same language.

10:59 Yeah, yeah. Or maybe they learned to read it and the humans were writing it. I don't know. I. Don't know. I don't know. So I was right, but also when thinking about it more, I'm probably wrong. Yes. So that's my first one. My second one or do you have any omissions? Yeah, I do. I still stand behind everything that we said except for the fact that we forgot one important detail. So last episode we talked about a kind of crazy theory that Segal and Taryn had to kill elders to abscond with these dragon eggs.

11:30 And like, that's how that's why the elders are dead and dragon eggs are missing. We did not realize or bring up that at the end of Onyx Storm, it does say in clear sequence, So you could draw relationships, right, that four riders, they're Dragons and three elders were murdered in the valley in the last few hours. And then it stated 6 eggs are missing from the hashing grounds as of the latest tally.

11:51 So we're aware now there were three elders that were killed in the valley. So maybe you guys have a point on elders dying being correlated with the dragon eggs. I still think that there's no way that Taryn and Segal killed them. Like just based on everything and Dharna went through with Sola, it just feels incorrect.

12:14 So they were responsible for their deaths. Drag an egg on my face on that one for sure, guys. But yeah, OK. And I want to defend myself a tad. Yeah. The reason why I forgot about the elders. And we've gotten this question on Discord and I answered it, so I'm happy answering it. Here are like last episode on our Onyx Storm coverage will be the end of Onyx Storm, right?

12:34 That's going to be like our magnum opus. That's going to be like, OK, all our theories have led to this point. So I am kind of intentionally not included any of that. I know I've kind of blurred that line, but I'm like kind of trying to avoid rereading the end of Onyx Storm because we have so much that will be coming in that episode. And I don't want to have already talked about all of it before we get to that point.

12:53 So that's why I forgot about the Elders being murdered. I apologize. I did too. That's what it's working. But we both did, yeah. But first to GAIL and Taryn to have done that. Yeah, feels wrong. There's got to be lines like I, yeah, like I just, they're, they're villains then, right? Like they're, yeah, like Segal or Tan wouldn't kill Solace because right, Right. So like I just don't see how he could then turn around and kill an elder.

13:23 Elders. Yeah. No, I just, I don't think that that's what happened. Like, there are so there are so many other ways that elders could have died in that battle. Like, it was a literal bloodbath, right? So no, I vote no. I vote like the effort. OK. Social media shoutouts. Right. So we had a good theory and there's a couple people who kind of alluded to this theory on the post we did about Jack Signet where I said I thought he might be wielding pure power and Willis and wrote I almost wonder if his signet mirrors that of who he selects like he was with Violet and channel pure power and an iron flame. He deflects aid in shadows, which is his signet. So we talked about the idea of Violet being a mimic and I think on our signets episode could

14:05 Jack be the the mimic? So the the quote from Iron Flame is Jack's head swings in our direction and he yields with an outward facing palm, throwing a shield that deflects Zaid in shadows as blood sprays from Bade's throat onto the ward stone. The black flames extinguish an instant before Bade collapses, her weight pitching forward.

14:23 I don't necessarily read this as mimicking, but it I do think it's interesting that Jack can just like deflect state in shadows. I don't think we've seen anyone else deflect Zaid in shadows, right? Yeah I either saw this comment too or maybe we got a similar one on TikTok. I do think it's interesting that he deflects Aidan's shadows, but to me that didn't read like shadow wielding because it says he threw up a shield.

14:45 Yeah exactly. Is this venom magic? We still don't really know what Jack's signet was if he ever manifested 1. And we also still don't really understand how Vennon's magic works. Like we just learned in the last book that like maybe they wield signets rather than just power. But I think Jack has more of a case for being a mimic than Violet does at this point.

15:04 I. I think so too. And I think it's interesting when you think about the balance, like we've talked about how the balance is not necessarily like a one to one. Like every good guy signet has a bad guy signet. Like if Bodie's signet is countering, then it seems to me the balance for that would be mimicking, right. So then that would work with the balance, assuming Bodie is not the brother, which we'll get into, but Bodie certainly was if Bodie is event and Jack was event at first. So yeah, I don't know.

15:31 Yeah. And I mean, that's still really powerful, having a mimicking signet, That's fucking crazy. Yeah. Crazy. Scary. Yeah. Yeah. Like no good crazy like. Oh no, like bad. It's like very bad. Yeah, yeah, I have two social media shout outs. Just the first one is super simple, but I think we had three actually milestones, right? Didn't we hit 1000 on Instagram?

15:53 Yeah, we did. We're at 1100 now. Yeah. So yay, thank you for following us. We hit 2000 on TikTok I think literally this morning. Wow, No, thank you for following us there. And we also hit 100 subscribers, subscribers on YouTube, so. That's something we've hit 200 subscribers on Spotify. Clean.

16:12 I mean, that's awesome. I know that that doesn't sound like crazy huge numbers, but like we thought that we didn't know it was gonna happen when we started, but we currently did not think that thousands of people were going to tune in and care about what we had to say about the series. So thanks. That's really nice.

16:25 We love you guys. We're very thankful for everyone. Who's here thank you yeah and then my other shout out so I wanted to talk about we got some interesting comments this week on our post about how we we think that the Dragons might be lying about how cygnets work. TikTok is weird that way in that post that we posted a long time ago, we'll just like flare up suddenly and people will like have a lot of things to say on them.

16:47 And I know that some of you are catching up. And so that's totally justifiable. But there was some discourse on our post about how cygnets work. So I'll give a summary of the discourse and then I'll talk about why I think it's interesting. So the crux of the post was we thought that the Dragons were lying about how signets work because of their conversation with the earids, in which the earids are basically saying you gifted your rider this, you armed yours with this, making it sound very intentional. And Riddick started to argue like, that's not how signets work.

17:14 And the earids were like, screw this guy. Like he doesn't know what he's talking about, basically just ignored him. So we thought that was fishy. Some people felt like this was hard to believe because when Violet first intentionally wielded lightning at the time of Jack's alleged death, Taryn boomed like lightning wielder, right? And most interpreted this as like a surprise declaration. But then we had some interesting responders say, well, actually, that doesn't really hold water because we later learned that Taryn knew when Violet first wielded while kissing Zaden. And we learned this when Violet was learning about dream walking.

17:48 And then Darna said, well, you didn't tell her the first time that she wielded lightning. She needed to discover it for herself. So that implies, right, that Tar knew the first time Violet wielded lightning. It also implies that Andarna knew that Tar knew the first time Violet wielded lightning. But Taran didn't know when Violet wielded dreamwalking. He got mad at Andarna for not telling Violet. Right.

18:12 So here's what I think is interesting. It kind of furthers our theory that Irid signets are different than other den signets and possibly furthers our theory that Irids are like a different species. Dragons can tell when their own human wields their signet right? But so far aside from Indarna, not other Dragons signets.

18:31 So Taran doesn't know about Zane's intensive signets? Like a whole betrayal of Seagal against Taran because she didn't tell him. Maybe, but he does have that line that says don't read me so I'm not 100% but yes. Maybe, but he gets really mad when feels really mad about it. He gets really mad. Suspect, right?

18:48 Yeah. And Even so, even if he didn't know, like that would have been because Segal told him, not because he could tell. Taryn also doesn't know about his own riders dream walking signet, which is kind of crazy. Earrings, however, can detect other people's signets and abilities just by looking at them reopen.

19:03 And those earrings recognize Riddick's signet without him telling them. He's like, you got ice. Yeah, and Zayden flared up as then an on site when the earids were looking at him. I love this. I think this is great. The only thing I was going to say because I was going spoiler alert, we're recording our dream deep dive as well today. So obviously the dreams are very and I was going to bring this up on dream deep dive.

19:26 I'll bring it up here too. There is a moment where Violet is waking up from a nightmare and she says to Taran, can you see my dreams? And he says I have better things to do. He doesn't say no. Yes, I have better things to do. Right. So, like, I wonder if Tan did know that she was dreamwalking. But none of that negates what you just said, right?

19:47 None. Like, it still means that, yeah, the Irans know people's signets and they know whether or not they're Venom and other Dragons don't. I think you're totally right about that. Right? Because it's not like Tan was like, hey, by the way, Violet Jack fucking Barlow is a Venom, right? Yeah. And if they, if shouldn't Darna have known?

20:05 That's where I'm going is why doesn't Andarna just like, walk around like a fucking siren whenever we see a venom? I mean, I don't know the dreamless sleep for a lot of it. So this is so this goes further from what I think is actually true. But one other thing I thought about when thinking through this were the elders.

20:22 So like the elders can detect a Dragon's scale colors before they ever manifest and they knew that Andarna was a different species. Like what if like because Andarna isn't? I don't know. Well you know what, maybe it's just she needed to be trained by the Irids right? So maybe it's just like this is a skill that they learn and now she will be able to.

20:43 In which case, fucking a toes better wash the fuck out. Yeah, yeah. So thank you for the discourse on that post because that let us down a fun train of thought. This is going to be a 5 hour episode. We have to move on. OK, let's dive and consistent with our last history episode, we're going to try our best to explain the events and what we know about them before driving into theories. We know we're not always awesome about that, so we'll we'll really try our best.

21:13 Abby, would you care to tell us about the second Krovlin Uprising? I would love to, and I know I want to just preface this a bit because I know you and I were texting a bit about this this weekend, and I think we've both come to this conclusion. The second Krovlin uprising and the Tearish Rebellion are now in my mind, inextricably linked.

21:32 I think as we go through this episode, at least in my mind, we'll see that there are perhaps ones very specific similar thread through the both of them. I don't know if you also have found this thread or not because I think it's pretty crazy, but basically the second Krovlin uprising and the Tiers rebellion, there's a reason Asher.

21:48 I think there's a reason Asher points Violet and this direction at this specific history event rather than say what the signee incursion of 328 or whatever the fuck that was. So I think that's important. I think we should just keep that in mind as we go through. Thread is. I'm excited. I have a thread but I don't know if it's the same as yours. Mine is crazy.

22:07 Mine is actually crazy. So. It is crazy, but it's also not crazy. It's been confirmed. All right, So what we know about the second Krovan upright rising pretty much all comes from Asher. So basically Deborah Ellie brokered a deal between an unnamed aisle Kingdom and Krova. Krova wanted to secede from peromial, wasn't happy with peromial for whatever reason they needed an army to do it.

22:32 Deborah Ellie brokered a deal between an unnamed aisle Kingdom and Krova Krova Before we get to Violets hypothesis. What we know is that Krova couldn't keep their end of the bargain, whatever the bargain was between Deborah, Ellie and unnamed Aisle Kingdom. So Deborah Alley pulled out of the deal and the Aisle Kingdoms withdrew their support.

22:50 And because the word is the blood, Deborah Alley also sold out Crowbla to the Pramora King Regent. And the midnight massacre occurred, in which all of the Crowblash uprisers were Ronnie's doing. The thumb across the neck gesture were slaughtered. Slaughtered in their beds, right? So killed in their sleep, which we know even riders don't do, right? Riders won't kill other riders in their sleep, but these guys were killed in their sleep.

23:14 We actually know. I also do want to just talk about what we know about Krovla, because I do think it's important. Yeah, God. So aside from the Krovlin uprising, we learn a few things in like little smatterings about Krovla throughout the book. So the first is the trade agreement of resin that was signed like 200 years ago, likely in the early 4 hundreds.

23:33 That allows for the exchange of meat and lumber from Navarre for cloth and agriculture from peromial. And that exchange happens 4 * a year at the Athman outpost which borders Krovla and Tier and Door there is also yeah. That's important. That's important. That's important. Make a note. There's also the Treaty of a Reef.

23:52 It allows for shared airspace between Crovla and Navarre, so Dragons and Griffins can fly over a strip, a small strip of mountains. We're not told what strip of mountains those are, but if you have. To be the husband. Yeah, if you look at a map, it looks like it has to be that. Both of those things, I think, make it plausible for Krovlin citizens to exchange information and goods with Navarian citizens, not illegally.

24:16 And we also know that Krovla is governed by Viscount Takaris. Yeah, with my only additional like. What we know and cordon is the. Capital Cordon is the capital, yeah. It's an important city. It's an important city. It's where Takaris lives. Yes, and Asher makes a note, which I thought was kind of a strange note, that it was assumed that Corden supplied the troops for the Krovlin uprising, which I thought was weird because Corden is part of Krovla.

24:42 So like, why would that? Why would that be a special note? All right, so then we get into Violet's hypothesis that we learn about in Tales and tones on the Isle of Deverelli with Narelle. So Violet speculates that the Isle Kingdom was promised feather tails. The way she is able to speculate this is there's two pieces of documentation that she uses.

25:06 So first is Public Notice 433.323. By the way, I don't know if you guys haven't realized this. The public notices, the numbers are the years in which they're published. And whatever comes out and says that, you just kind of have to deduce it because the year the public notices that are epigraphs in Onyx Storm are like 630-3634. So it's the year in which they're published. So that's how we know this happened in 433. So public notice 433.

25:31 But you're all very smart. I'm sure you figured that out. Public News 433.323 acknowledges a failed border breach attempt by Krovlin forces near Athabine 2 days before the midnight massacre. So the Krovlin forces were attempting to cross into Navarre at Athabine. Keep that in mind. That's important.

25:48 The Journal from the commander who oversaw the interrogation said that the soldiers had crossed into Navarre to acquire tail feathers. However, as Dane and Violet realized together again in Tails and Tomes, the Raiders spoke Kroblesh. In Kroblin, the descriptor follows the noun, so it's not tail feathers, feather tails, right? And I will also remind everyone that the definition of feather tails is a little up in the air at this moment, but let's go with.

26:15 Let's talk about why that is though. That's important, right? Like every dragon in Navarre hatches and is a golden feather tail. However, we also know that Earids. No, they don't change their tail. They don't change their tail. The tail remains feathered, right? So Dragons are hatched as feather tails, I'm assuming when they go through puberty.

26:33 But they'd find out their scale color and they get to choose their tail. So the tail is up to the dragon irids keep their feather tails. We don't know if that's because they choose to always keep their feather tails or they or this choice is not given to them. All right, so Violet assumes that this feather tail is referring to juvenile Dragons.

26:51 OK, I'll go further. So doesn't. Should I give guys, should I not more of Violet's hypothesis and speculation? I'm saying violets because I'm no longer sure that IA 100% agree with her on Unbrio. When they're on Unbrio and they're fighting Queen Marliss and they said Violet wins. She says, and Marliss says, OK, I'll talk to you. She says, will you fight for us?

27:10 Marliss says we want Dragons not fully grown. Of course your kind has let them become too headstrong, too arrogant. Bring us say 12 eggs, 2 of each breed, and I will bring my army to the continent. And Violet says the second Krovlin uprising dad was right, but they weren't looking for feather tails because of their gifts, it was because they thought they were dot dot dot malleable. So Violet assumes that because Marla said they were looking, they wanted dragon eggs.

27:34 That unbriel was the unnamed Isle that Krovla made a deal with through Deborah. I don't necessarily agree with Violet. This is. Just right. Like that's what. You're saying is. You don't know whether they just wanted feather tails because they're malleable. Yeah, I think based on the the absolute hunger and reverence with which everyone has been looking at and Darna as an irate, I think it's unlikely that that's the only reason that anyone wanted feather tails, right.

28:00 So basically Violet assumes that because Unreal is asking for dragon eggs that they are. They were the ones who wanted the feather tails 200 years ago. That is what we have for what we know. I have some other notes. Do you want me to go into them or do you want you have anything else? I think there's a couple important things that we no one is that Asher intentionally taught Dan Krovlish because Violet struggled with it, implying that she would need it at some point.

28:25 So this research around Krovla, it's not just an FYI, here's what happened in Krovla. It's like you're probably going to need to figure something out in Krovlish at some point. And then I think the other piece is like Navarre has made a point to conceal the events of the second Krovla uprising from the citizens of Navarre. So it's interesting that Asher was specifically researching it in conjunction with feather tails and that that somehow got approved and is now very much like leadership wants it, it do they want it just to continue concealing it? I don't know.

28:52 But it is interesting, right, That they, like they might have had enough faith that someone would figure out a connection between the Krovlin uprising and feather tails that they wanted to hide it completely. Or there's something else related to this that they wanted to hide completely. But either way, they're being super sketchy about the second Krovlin Uprising. Yeah, absolutely.

29:10 And this just speaks back to our. There are many cover ups in this series. There is not just one cover up. There is a series of small cover ups as well. And I was actually going back and rereading it. I was rereading this scene between Lilith and Violet on the stairs right after she's been freed from torture. And Lilith describes it as a blanket of lies that were woven for them like centuries ago, which I was like, the imagery of that is just so interesting, right? Like it's, it's all these little pieces that they have to keep together to keep the blanket from from ripping. And obviously it doesn't work.

29:46 The other note I had is that it seems, based on the timeline, that the second Crovelin uprising is also what led to riders becoming the generals of all the armed forces. So we have a quote from Iron Flame when Eric and Violet are in the archives. Eric is sorry sometimes. I still want to say, Eric, I know you guys given us a lot of feedback on that, so I'm trying so.

30:07 Much feedback on that one. It's ambiguous. OK. Aaron is pronounced Aaron. Yeah. Aaron. I don't want to hear your shit. OK, so Arik is going through all of the all of the texts in the archives and he's like, oh, there's journals here from like healers and scribes who were the leaders of the armed forces. And Violet says healers, infantry or even scribes could be general of the armies until about 200 years ago with the second Kroblin uprising.

30:34 After that, the commander of the Riders commanded all of Navarre's forces. So something about the Kroblin uprising, right, made the Riders, but really the Dragons, right? Because it's always really the Dragons and say hey cut the bullshit we can't do this anymore we have to be in charge. Is that because they were trying to steal feather tails and Dragons will do anything to protect their young? Could be, we don't really know, that's just speculation. That looks like a nice matcha.

30:58 I made this matcha before this and I was so proud of it and I actually plan to show you in our intro and then I forgot. So here's my beautiful matcha for anybody who's watching video. Yeah, I didn't even process that, but that's super interesting. Right, so something about this put put riders in charge of everyone. It's interesting.

31:18 All right, Do we want to get into theories? Let's do theories. Yeah, go. Ahead, do you want to start do? You want me to start? I mean, I can start with the first one because I don't have anything terribly exciting on it and you probably have something more hard hitting. So it's like speculation on the unnamed aisle. I think we're led to believe this is unreal for the reasons that you just outlined.

31:35 Right? Like Queen Marlies very much says I want Dragons, and I think that is the most likely answer. However, I think she also reveals something important when she says that when she's asked her price to ally with Tyrandor, she says the same thing everyone else in the Isles craves. So I think we can safely assume this is something that quite a few are after and not shy about. Given she knows that like the people in Sahilna look at the Dragons with reverence, so does Talia and her children on Hidotis.

32:02 Like the Isles all want Dragons. And so while I agree that unreal is the most likely, I don't actually know that unreal is definitively it. I. Don't think you can roll the others out. So I think I have to start with speculation for dealing with Dragons because it kind of leads to my OK, OK, so why Athabine?

32:21 Why would you go? Why would you go into Navarre through Athaban? You have to go to tier and door and then you have to scale the Chris of Cliffs of Dreylor, which we got many scenes about. Lots of exposition we're. Going the same place, really. Hard to scale the cliffs of Draylor. Why would you go into Navarre through Athabine? There's plenty of entrances on the Esben mountains. There's plenty of outposts.

32:45 Like Crowbla has a long border. We can pull up the map if we want. Why would you go through Athabine is to get to the Veil, right? Sorry, I should add, you're trying to get to the Veil. That's where the Dragons are. That's where we've been told the Dragons are, right? OK, I went back and I was rereading the beginning of Iron Flame because of some theories about Brennan that we has that we have.

33:05 Violet says how did you survive after being shot by an arrow basically? And I read this line the first time and I thought nothing of it. And I read this line this time and I went, holy fuck, what the fuck Brennan? There are other Dragons here and they saved us, hit us in the network of caves within the valley, then later with the civilians who survived the city being torched, other Dragons. The oration imperian is not new.

33:29 The Oration Imperian has been here the whole time, correct? In Cape. Who are these Dragons? Who are these Dragons? Who are they? Are they only black Dragons? Like what the fuck is going on here? I have chills. Yes. OK, so there are secret, there's a secret dragon den in Orisha guys. Like it's not just it's not just the Doom avoid in line or whatever that Taran and Kodag are descended from.

33:56 It might be them, but I was certainly led to believe that all Dragons went to the Veil for the unification, not these Dragons. Not these Dragons. And Krovla knows about them. Krovla knows about them and thought that they could take feather tails for whatever reason from the Dragons and tier Endor.

34:12 It's the only thing that makes sense. It does not make sense to try to get all the way to the veil via tier Endor. Right, so I have one counter to that, which was the first theory that I originally came up with based on the trade agreement at resin. So this gets into like how potentially tier the Tierish Rebellion and Krovla, the Krovlin Uprising can be linked.

34:31 You once asked on this podcast why Tier Endor would agree to unify with Navarre. I had assumed that Dragons had to be the answer, right? The Veil is in the heart of the territories that agreed to unify with Navarre. Without Dragons. Tyrandor has leverage because they have talladium, but they have no army to defend themselves aside from infantry who could be scorched in seconds because they don't have Flyers there.

34:53 I think there's a theme here which it's not fancy, it's just simple military tactics. Like everyone wants Dragons because Dragons are the strongest unit of an army, any army, right? Why go through Athens then? Athabine? I don't know how you actually pronounce that to be honest with you. There's there. Tirendor and Krovla are meeting at that outpost. 4 * a year. What if Tirendor was helping Krovla? Yeah, OK.

35:17 That's my other theory, that Tirendor was never actually part of Navarre. Like it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense. And I get into this more in the in the Tiarish Rebellion. Yeah, me too. Yeah, but I think it's important, right? Like Tyrandor is on the border. Like they could have family on either side. They could have allegiances on either side. Like what if Athaben Athaben God I don't. Know.

35:37 Say it your way. I'll say it my way. People will let us know. What if? What if Athaben was just the place they thought they could get in with tears? I think that's also possible. And This is why I'm saying in my mind these two events are now inextricably linked, right? Because like think no matter what, Tyrandor was working closely with Krobla here, right?

35:57 Like, we don't think there's any way around that. Well, is that still true if they're trying to steal the hatchlings of this like secret Arishan riot, right? Like that would be an an offence against Tier and door. So I actually think like whichever way this actually went determines whether Krovel and tier and door have been in cahoots. And there's totally the possibility that that's nuanced, right?

36:20 Like anytime you have a trade agreement, like you could have people like covertly sharing information and then other people like we're like sticking to the law type thing. But I don't necessarily think that both mean that tier and door was like objectively helping Krovo. Guess that's true. I guess that's true.

36:36 I'd have to think about it more. I and This is why in my mind I'm saying these two events are inextricably linked, right? Because I'm I'm I'm getting a little bit of ahead of ourselves. But with the Tierish rebellion, Kat and Zaden being engaged, the more I think about I'm like that is so weird. Like Fen just engaged his son to an enemy Princess basically, right?

36:59 Like, and it's not like Fen is the king of Navarre and is trying to form an alliance, right? Like. During the rebellion. That this happens during the Rebellion, This is what I'm saying. But this, this is kind of what leads to me thinking that the root, the roots between Tierrendor and Krobla go deep and that Tierndor was always actually closer aligned with Krobla than with Navarre.

37:19 Because like, that's not even like it's not even like seen as an act of war kind of, I don't know, Like it's just crazy for this engagement to like exist in my mind. I think it. It was like Peromial and Navarre were at war, so the fact that they were engaged was like a blatant act of rebellion, like they never could have arranged that with Navarre's approval. The engagement does not end when the rebellion fails. Like the engagement stays, which I think is like that's kind of crazy.

37:51 Like that's wild. Anyway we can get back to we can get back to crowbar. So unnamed Isle could be could be unreal, could be unreal. I don't think it can be Hadotis. I don't think it can be Zahilna because Zahilna is so driven by luck. I just don't really see them making this kind of deal. Right.

38:09 You know, like being strategic. Yeah. And we don't think it's Deverelli because Deverelli is the broker. Deverelli is the broker Lisum still on the table we just don't know anything about. Anything about Lisa? Yeah, I think I have to get to my precog theory now. I think I have to to keep going. Okay sorry my pre card corner theory early.

38:30 Sometimes you do it early. Please forgive me. Do it early, all right? We mentioned this before feather tails, do feather tails mean juvenile Dragons or do the mate they mean earrids, right? So I made a couple notes about this and I made notes based on kind of what the general with the general consensus about feather tails seems to me and seems to be across the books, right.

38:52 So like when we are talking about feather tails in general, are we talking about earrids? Are we talking about juvenile Dragons? So first one, feather tailed Dragons are the breed we know the least about. Breed. Breed. That's irids. That points to irids, right? OK, this is because feather tails reportedly abhor violence and are not suitable for bonding Irids, though this scholar cannot be certain as one has never left the veil within my lifetime. That could go towards irids or towards juvenile Dragons. Feather tails shouldn't bond because they can accidentally gift their powers to humans.

39:23 So again, we're getting to the gifting of the powers, which to me means we should be talking about Irids as well. Feather tails don't bond because their power is too unpredictable, unstable. Terence says this. This could be ears or this could be juvenile Dragons and then a toast. So this is all, this is all kind of knowledge that Violet is reciting, knowledge that Violet knows from her father. This is just like common knowledge about feather tails. And then a toast says, which is funny because I remember your father doing a bit of research about the second Krovlin uprising and he mentioned something about feather tails, but can't seem to find that tone. OK, based on everything we know

39:55 about what Asher did going to the Isles and Dharna being silent about, I know nothing about your father's research. Really. Seems to me feather tails here means irids does not mean juvenile Dragons, Zaidan says. Do you think there is a den hidden on the continent somewhere? Is the Arishan riot our secret ear den? I think that would be crazy, yeah. Other Dragons that save Brennan, basically. Are the other Dragons that save Brennan Irids, right? And would here's the thing, would Brennan even necessarily know because they can change color? The only tail, the only tail is the feather tail, right? So what?

40:29 Brennan might not even know. Zaden references that this might be Irids. I think that the Krovlin uprising was actually looking for Irids, not for juvenile Dragons, right? That's what I'm saying here. Like I think these feather tails are irids. I think they were looking for irids, which doesn't necessarily mean they were trying to kidnap them.

40:46 They could have just trying to be convince them to come with them. Right. Yeah, which then would make Athman make sense, right? If they thought that if they had reason to believe that you're the secret you had done was hiding into your indoor. Could they be linked to Palladium? I had the same note. I had the same note.

41:02 I couldn't find anything. I couldn't find anything like definite on that, but that is kind of my current working theory that this secret dragon den first mind blown with secret dragon den. But are they the secret era den? Because it doesn't make sense, right? It doesn't make sense when you think about it for an unnamed aisle to want Dragons. Dragons can't access magic on the aisles, right? So.

41:27 We still don't know what would happen if they established hatching grounds there, but yes, yeah. I think we should assume the general knowledge should be that that Dragons can't access magic on the aisles except for ear. It's right, yeah. Yeah. So who? Just our magic. Who? Just our magic, right?

41:43 So I think these, I think the feather tails are irids. I think there's a chance there's a secret era den in Orisha. I definitely think there's a secret dragon den in Orisha no matter what. And that's my dissertation on this. Thank you for coming to my dead dog. The question is of course if there is a secret era den we have to assume Zeta didn't know.

42:04 We have to. I also just think it's interesting that like, so I I got to the same passage you did with Brennan saying like, there are other Dragons here. They helped me, they saved me and they were in caves. Right. Hidden and then Darna's not fond of pits. Donor's not fond of pits, yeah? I also just feel like that network of caves is going to come back into play, even though I think we were maybe already in it with Solas. Was that there?

42:24 Oh yeah, that was there. That was. There. It was definitely in the network of caves somewhere. Yeah. OK, OK, that's a good one. So the secret dragon den in Arisha, first of all, like Arisha has had Dragons, which is noteworthy. Or maybe not Arisha. Maybe that's like a misnomer. It was somewhere in Tyrandor though. I think Tyrandor has had Dragons right to make. Conclusion I do feel like we were all over the place, so let's just wrap up our theory.

42:48 Yeah. Crowlin uprising. They went to Athabine because they knew there was a secret dragon den in Tyrandor at Those are the Dragons they were going after, not the Dragons in the Veil. They may or not have been looking for earrings rather than juvenile Dragons. We are not convinced that the unnamed aisle was unreal. Yeah, an alternate theory is just like our Tier Endure and Krovla allies and Tier Endure was planning to to help Krovla break in and get to the Veil.

43:13 Don't know either of those were simpler. Either of those were less crazy. Theory I. Guess my thing is if Krovla and Tier Endure were allies on this, why? Like Krovla wouldn't have gotten caught at Athabine maybe? Maybe, unless tier Endure was split in some way. Yeah but like Tier Endure also has every reason to want Dragons for themselves.

43:33 Like if Tyrandor had Dragons like had a hatching ground that wasn't in Bizgayeth. Like why are they part of Navarre? Why would they have lost the rebellion though? Right, Because they're Irrids? Because they don't fight anyway. Much, much to think about. OK, everything else on the Crow, the second Crowblin uprising.

43:48 I mean, I think it's interesting that this is the second Crowblin uprising. What was the 1st? Yeah, and why? Why are people upset with Pamorish? Wait, Romish? Romish. Leadership on that? No. Let's talk about the Tears Rebellion, AKA the Apostasy AKA the Secession. Lots of names for this event so just I'll just give an overview and do my best to be concise yet detailed on what we actually know about the Tierish Rebellion for sure.

44:15 So the Tierish rebellion started somewhere around six 27628 AU, roughly five years before the start of 4th wing. The only thing we really know about the start of the rebellion for sure is that Fenn tried to declare Tierish independence and the first thing he did was find allies, the first of whom was Viscount Takaris of Krovla It. Comes back.

44:39 It comes back the rebellion lasted a little less than a year, which is quite short and we know that Tieran Door almost won. The only indication that we're given as to why they almost won was Tieran Doors actual geographical positioning near the cliffs of Draylor, which is over 1000 foot drop. Arisha if for those who just pulled the map of the Empyrean series, Arisha position between the mountain range that sits between Arisha and Bizgayeth and the cliffs drop off is between them and the border of Navarre.

45:09 So Arisha is actually like super well positioned for conflict especially if you have Dragons and other people don't. The battle in which Brennan quote died by Fenn shooting him in the chest with an arrow was likely. I say likely because we don't know for sure, but we're kind of given a lot of clues that this was likely the last battle of the Tiarish Rebellion since Brennan was then taken to the caves to wait until Navarre burned down Arisha.

45:34 We also know that Taran was a big part of why Navarre won against the Tearish per Kiori, which is interesting seeing as the side that he's shaken out on now is like the side of Tyrandor, right? I have. One note about that and again I'm going to shout out our friends faithfully fantasy they pointed this out.

45:53 I'm not sure I agree with them, but Rebecca worded that very very tricksily so she didn't say. She never says that Taran is fighting for Navarre. She didn't. Yeah, Yeah. She said, she said like, yeah, right. Yeah. So I I don't have the exact quote, but it's basically we would have we would have lost without him. But that doesn't necessarily mean that Taran was fighting for Navarre.

46:16 It could mean that he did something stupid. I don't know. I don't know. But he could have been fighting for Tear Endor. We don't know anything about Naolan. Naolan could have been Tearish, you know? I think it's highly likely that Navarre perceived Taryn to be fighting for Navarre. But you're right.

46:33 Like we don't know what was going on in Naylan's head. We can assume that like given Brennan was perceived to be on the side of Navarre and nail and was clearly like Brennan was important to nail in a nail and saved him. Like they probably look like they're fighting for Navarre, but could Taryn have been on the side of Taryn door this entire time and just posing as Navarre exactly like he's been for the first half of the series? Totally probably think that's reasonable. Yeah.

46:59 So Taryn was a big part of why Navarre won. Unclear which side he was fighting for. And it's also interesting because we know that his rider Naolan allegedly died savings saving Brennan's life in that supposed last battle. So the rebellion ended. We don't know a ton about like what led to the capture.

47:16 We don't know like what Taryn really did that ended the rebellion, right? We don't know that. So I'm not going to say it now, but we're going to theorize it. Rest assured, the rebellion ended with the Separatists capture and execution by dragon fire. Dragon Fire and the children of the Separatists were forced to watch their parents die. These executions we know happened in Khaldir, which is where the royal family lives, where King Tarry and his family lives, and we know that Lilith didn't think the kids should have been there, but we know that she oversaw the executions. We also know that there may have been other private executions and we know this because Liam's father, Isaac Maieri, was executed in private in their

47:54 family home and was not on the death roll from the Cal Deer executions. So we don't know how many of those there were, but we know that there was one. And the children of the executed were given runes by Liam's mother that blossomed into rebellion relics on their skin once their parents were executed by Kodak, who is General Melbourne's dragon. And that rebellion relic protects them from the signet of the dragon that killed their parents. And it also seems like there was a propaganda spin about those relics, right?

48:23 Because, yeah, what Violet understands at the beginning of fourth thing is that those relics were actually given to them by Kodak to mark them as the children of the rebellion leaders. But then we find out that actually, they had no idea that was going to happen. This was all General Mayori. So I think what we are told, I believe this to be true, is that Liam's mother created these runes that the kids had at the time of the execution.

48:48 And once General Melgren's dragon, Kodak had executed their parents, this rune caused the rebellion relic to blossom and then protected them from General Melgren's Dragons, General Melgren's signet actually. OK. So one could argue that Navarian leadership just like saw whatever that happened and thought, OK, and maybe Kodak said this, like maybe Kodak lied, said OK, like CODAG gave them that those relics because like, we don't know what made them gave them those relics. And now we know that they're evil and that they're the children of separatists and we'll never forget type of thing.

49:24 I find that very hard to believe. Like, I think Navarian leadership probably knew that some some sort of rune or something caused those relics to blossom. But you could spin a theory in which CODAG was like, hey, Melgren, like I did this, and now these kids have these relics, and now you'll always know that they're separatist children and they're marked and bad. Another interesting thing I just thought of, I don't know if you remember this, but Liam says the youngest child of a rebellion leader was born with a rebellion relic. Yeah.

49:56 Which I think is fascinating in terms of like, the power of runes or it was a Rebecca and she hadn't quite figured this out yet. But like, will their children continue to be born with this relic? Like is this going to shield tear and door? Forever, basically. So just to round out right, their parents were executed. The children were given these rooms by Liam's mother. Those blossomed into rebellion relics on their skin and protected them from the signet of the dragon, The signet of the rider of the dragon, the murder their parents. Which is crazy work by Liam's mom. Like MVP of Runes.

50:29 She should have been teaching runes this whole time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Once their parents were dead, the children were sent to various nobles to be fostered until they could be conscripted into the rider's quadrant. And we know that siblings were separated. Like we don't have a ton of rhyme or reason as to why anyone was sent to any specific foster parent, but we do know that it was. It sounds like it was probably strategic because Liam and his sister didn't even go to the same 1. So unclear.

50:59 Some kind of strategy. I would argue that raising Zaid and Liam together is terrible. For them. Totally agree. Anything I missed on History of the Tears rebellion? Yeah, 1 two things, I think. So I have two quotes here. Some tears. Riders remain loyal to Navarre. They were promoted and the riders who turned against King and country were killed or executed. So I think that speaks to our split that we were talking about potentially earlier with the Second Cruel and Uprising, that Tierndor is not necessarily a fully united front. I think Aura Haven or whatever the fuck her name was, I think she was, yeah, fuck her.

51:39 I think she was Tearish, but not part of the rebellion. Someone, someone, someone in Fourth Wing was Tearish but wasn't part of the rebellion. I don't remember who, sorry. Sorry if I'm besmirching her terrible name. And I think it's whenever we talk about riders being executed, I'm like, OK, so then what happens to their Dragons, right? Because we know.

52:01 Change names and found the children, obviously. OK, All right. Yeah, question answered. Never mind. But yes, I I mean, I think we should think about that. We know, we know that Fenn wasn't a rider, but I don't think we know about General Maieri. She might have been a rider, you know, I think. Yeah.

52:17 Anyway, So what? What happened to those Dragons? You brought up such an important point. If Liam's mom weaved these runes, she was either a rider or a flyer. Based on what we know about runes right now, she had to be except. Maybe not. OK, well I I forgot that I actually have a really crazy pre crowd corner theory.

52:35 OK, OK. I also. OK, yeah, keep going. I have a couple. Of my other note, my other note there, Brennan at one point says we learn from Fenn's mistakes. We're not attacking Navarre like he did or declaring independence. We're fighting right out of their noses and we have a plan. So Fenn attacked Navarre, which I think is interesting, and I think it's a bad fucking move on his part.

52:56 But maybe if he felt that he had the might of a secret dragon dead that he could take on Navarre. I don't know. Clearly some. I think it's just we need to keep in mind, clearly some Dragons fought for Tyranor in this rebellion. And where are they now? Yep Yep agree. I left out two important points. One just like the whole classified treaty addenda piece. So like there's a bunch of stuff that went into this like post rebellion addenda to allow these kids to live that we don't, we might still not know a lot about, but we knew that the children of the Separatists had to go into the Riders Quadrant. We know that Zaden personally took responsibility of all 107 lives of those children.

53:40 And then the last thing that gets into theory, but I'll just like leave it here and then we can talk about it. But we talked about this on a prior episode, but I'm bringing it back because I think it matters. Right before the rebellion is when everyone started imbuing the alloy that's used in daggers to kill Vennon.

53:56 And just to remind everyone the reason that we know that is when Zaden is preparing a weapon. Violets asking like have have we always done this with daggers? And he said no. This started right before the rebellion. My guess is Melgren had a vision of how an upcoming battle is going to go and these were central to his victory.

54:12 Once the Gale chose me at threshing we started to work to smuggle out a few daggers at a time to supply what drifts we can make friendly contact with. So that started right before the rebellion, yes. I have nothing to add. OK. Lilith Soren Gale. Mama Soren Gale. I never even really thought about this. She captured Fen.

54:30 We know she captured Fen. Garrick has a line in Fourth Wing that she not only captured Fen, she captured almost all of their parents. How is that possible? How could one person capture all of the leadership of the rebellion? Right? I think we'll get back to that theories, but that's just something to keep in mind. She became the general of Baz Guy after the terrorist rebellion.

54:50 Whether that was as a reward for her performance in the Tierish Rebellion or whether she asked for that position, we don't know. Yeah, that's pretty much all I had. You wanna, you wanna get into theories? Do you do music? OK, do you wanna start with why we think the Tierish Rebellion started? I don't have a crazy theory on this one. I mean, I just have the theory that seems to be where we're leading, which is that the venin are getting more powerful. And this is actually about the venin. We have the quote.

55:20 In his last days of interrogation, Fenry Orson lost touch with reality. Railing against the Kingdom of Navarre, he accused King Terry and all who came before him of a conspiracy so vast, so unspeakable. That does not bear repeating by this historian. The execution was swift and merciful for a madman who cost untold lives. And we know that there was a conspiracy so vast and so unspeakable that it does bear repeating, Right. So, like, it's just I I don't think this is crazy. I think it's that the Vennon are getting more powerful. Parole meal who we know Tieran door might be secretly allied with his suffering.

55:54 Fen wants to help parole meal. He can't do that while he's still in part of Navarre. Tieran door on its own could help parole meal, right? They don't This is we don't need Navarre. So I think they were like, OK, you know enough of being allied with this king that we don't give two fucks about. We're done.

56:10 We're on our own. And then we know the last words of Fenry Orson where you're all cowards. I do think it's interesting that they're redacted. I don't know if that means that people weren't allowed to know that these were the last words of Fenry Orson or if there is part of this quote that we're not getting.

56:24 Like at first I read it and I thought it was so he probably said you're all fucking cowards, and that was what was redacted. But I don't know. We just. Censored it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. What's also interesting is the last words of I don't know how to say her name, but I think it's Drusilla Cardullo. Imogen's mother are also redacted, so obviously Novara. I think they tried to use their last words to like get into whatever the scribes were recording, like something that could share why all of this happened and we just and the scribes just cut them out.

56:59 I agree. I assume that Fen wanted to open the borders and allow Peroma citizens in to tier and door to help them to protect them. We know that tier and door is much easier to protect the peromial, and it's just farther from the barons. And we know we have the map at the beginning of Iron Flame that implies that the Vennon, Vennon rising is what I'm calling it, is not that new.

57:20 The red flags are all from the last few years in the orange of the last few months. So this has been happening. It's not like this is starting when Violet finds out about it, right? This has been going on for years. Yeah. I think. I think I could not find any evidence of it being about something else.

57:34 So that's what I think it's about, yeah. I agree with you. I mean I took a slightly more emotional twist on it. Like I I do think the cause of the terrorist rebellion dates back to 400 years ago, like when peromial and Navarre went to war. Like here indoors on the border of peromial Navarre making it possible. Like I wouldn't even say possible. I would say likely that terrorist citizens have family on both sides of the border and like to your point, Vennon rise start attacking peromial.

58:02 Irendor was divided over the conflict driven by a desire to protect peromial. We didn't start seeing that tilladium could help until right before the the rebellion, right? Like we just started imbuing tilladium and using it to kill venin right before the rebellion started. So I thought the alloy has existed for a very long time, but it only started getting put in daggers right before the rebellion. Agree, but you're saying you still couldn't use it to kill Venant?

58:33 I don't unless it was a dagger, unless it was imbued. OK, I like it. So I think when the alloys start, when they started realizing, OK, we can imbue this alloy. I think that's the straw that broke the camel's back. I think it's all the things that you mentioned. But the straw that broke the camel's back is Tyrandor is seeing, hey, these daggers are being created. This alloy is getting imbued, and now it can both extend our wards and kill Venon.

58:56 And Navarre was like, we're going to hoard this all and use it to extend our wards. And Tyrandor was like, we could be saving people with this. It's the daggers. Those damn daggers. It could be the daggers. I could have been like, again, I think there was plenty of reason aside from the daggers to this rebellion, but I think the daggers were the instigator because Tyrandor was the primary source for what was built so. So how the fuck was Peronial killing venin before the daggers?

59:23 Or were they not? Did the venin? Did the venin rising and the daggers kind of happen in tandem? Or maybe they had ways of using the alloy to be like, basically preventive, like they got creative. We know that Takaris had like, drained stones, yeah, that he was using to like keep venin at Bay. So I do believe there were other ways to. And we know they have.

59:44 Back venin the. Ruined chest and we know they've done a study on venin so clearly they have ways of containing the venin. And they tried poisons and dragon fire. Yeah. So yeah, I think they, I think they were working for a long time to find all of the possible ways that they could. Navarre starts imbuing this alloy.

1:00:05 And they were like we can use this. Which really shows you how fucking shitty Navarre is, right? Because the venom weren't even a problem for them. They make a weapon that can kill the venom and they still won't give it to Peronial. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So if I'm Tyrion Door in this situation and I'm seeing what's happening like right over the border to my family, to my cousins, and Navarre is like, you can't give the aid that you want to give because we're going to use this to extend our words and defend ourselves. I too would rebel.

1:00:35 I certainly would rebel. Messed up. Yes. So that's how I think the rebellion started. I basically my notes for what actually happened gets into my the connection between Tyran Door and Dragons is what I have titled this on my notes page because we talked about how there's a secret era den, sorry, a secret dragon den, not the era in Aratia.

1:00:55 We know Aratia is the ancestral hatching grounds for Taran and Koda. We know Brennan said there are other there are other Dragons here, right? We also could infer that Tyran Door was a Kingdom that held Dragons, Dragons in very high regard for the unification. And the reason we can do that is because there is a dragon on the throne. There's a dragon carved into the throne of Pterodor, right? So no matter what, this was the Kingdom that knew about Dragons, probably had positive association with Dragons. Maybe we're dragon riders, but if they were here in somewhere, probably not dragon riders, but still probably associated with the Dragons ruins.

1:01:34 Ruins are a tearish custom, right? So we got we actually got a lot on social media about I posted a clip about how the fuck did the Dragons know about ruins if no one had ever bonded with a dragon to create a rune. And a lot of people were like, well, maybe the Flyers knew about them first. Maybe the Flyers knew.

1:01:49 Maybe the Flyers knew they're a tears custom. We're told they're a tears custom. Kat and Marin are naturally gifted at doing runes, but they don't know about the runes until Violet and everyone finds out. The people who know about them are Imogen and Bodie and Garrick and Zeta, right? So they're tears custom.

1:02:05 So now we're talking about Dragons, a dragon den, and we are talking about runes. You mentioned before that Colonel Mayeri had to be a dragon rider in order to be able to wield the magic that had Bruins, But I'm getting back to your kind of theory originally that all magic might originate from Irids, right? So if these are earrings.

1:02:26 Stronger on that theory, overtime goes on by. The way if these are irids, if they're not bonded, if these are riders that are not bonded to Dragons, and I apologize everyone, I feel like we're way off the deep end on this one. But like I'm trying to figure out a world in which we are told that the first six are the first six riders who bonded Dragons.

1:02:45 We are told that runes predated that, so humans had to have had access to magic somehow before they bonded Dragons. And we are now told there's a secret den in Orisha of Dragons, but that they weren't bonded to humans because the first six were the first six, right? So like if these are irids, does that mean that like Tyrandor is basically just imbued with magic that humans can access on their own, like sky magic, right?

1:03:12 Ground magic because the irids have the access to the sky magic. So like is Tyrion door just kind of like a bastion utopia for dragon riders and humans before it gets all corrupted and fucked up by the six? Where humans have access to magic, Dragons have access to magic, but there are no venom and no one's fucked up.

1:03:31 I see you laughing at me. OK, I want to get back to the tears rebellion in a second, but I do think like to your point on runes and like how they could be powered, like we know that runes are woven and tempered with power. So like, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that some other source could not provide the power well.

1:03:51 Violet says she's tempted to pluck strings from the. Sky and weave roots, right? Yeah. So I don't. Yeah, I agree with you. I'm saying I agree with you. Like I think the roots, the roots do not necessarily like, in my mind, need to be woven by somebody who can actually temper the power themselves.

1:04:09 Like maybe the power can come from another place. Or maybe, but what does? This have to do with what actually happened in the. Cherisher Valley because I'm my theory is that this was actually yes, it could be have driven by like a desire to protect Romeo, but maybe it's actually driven by a desire to protect these Dragons.

1:04:27 Like if they're ear, it's even if they're not ear, it's. Or they're whatever. They're they're Empyrean. They're riots. They're like fuck. The the venom are coming. We know they're going to come here first. They came here first last time with the Battle of Gianfar. We know they're going to come for the Talladium, right? We know that they're going to come for Arisha. Play times over.

1:04:44 We have to protect ourselves basically. That's a theory I have Remember when I just said I don't have any other than the Bannon. It is about the Bannon, but it's about more about protecting these Dragons and the Dragons basically saying it's time to secede, right? Because we know that the Dragons are always the ones who are really in charge. So that's how this all we.

1:05:06 Yeah, OK, interesting, because I think like the the piece that gets interesting there for me, if it is like a we're trying to protect our Dragons situation is that Tearish citizens are also riders for Navarre, right? Like they also go to Bezayath. So then you're talking about the Empyrean actually knowing or members of the Empyrean who are the riders or the Dragons of these riders from Tyrandor actually knowing about new lover Dragons. But they do because Marb knows.

1:05:32 Well, now Marb knows. But did Marb always know? I don't know, but they know now. Right. They know now. Yeah, Yeah. That's why I said it's interesting. It is interesting. Waiting for you to tell me that I'm completely fucking crazy and that there's no way that it's real. I just think so Abby has the tendency of learning one thing and then it becomes the basis of the entire rest of the episode. It makes for a good episode.

1:05:55 But I have like, my theories are much like more straightforward as maybe the way I would describe them. Yeah. I'm crazy, but I think I have a couple. I cited a couple of things here. There are Dragons here. There were rude violence from the sky. Not unrealistic at all. Yes, I would say that that is the way I fear rise one crazy line and then I go off a deep end.

1:06:19 I. Love it. Anyway, I have one more thing. We know that Fenn hates riders. We know that the ear is also are not a fan of riders or signets in general. Gifting, gifting. Two peas in a prime, those those two. Yeah, that just, you know, now I have two lines to support my ear in the. I don't think you have no support. I'm saying like I want to go back to the basics. Like what the heck happened with Darren? Sorry guys, even I know what I'm going too far. Maybe.

1:06:48 Maybe I don't. All right, That's good. That's good. Oh, we're an hour and a half in. Perfect. OK, what actually happened? I combined this with berries on various key players, so is it OK if I talk about both of those of? Course. So the first key players that I wanted to talk about were Taran and Segal.

1:07:05 And I say Taran and Segal because I just assumed that Segal was around. Even though I don't think we I think we have good reason to believe she wasn't bonded at this time because the second rider that she bonded to was Satan's grandfather who didn't make it out of the quadrant and she hadn't bonded Satan yet. So we know that Taran is the reason the rebellion ended and we now know that he's a member of both the rebellion and the Oration Riot.

1:07:30 I don't know which side he was on before or whether losing his rider to the Tiarish Rebellion drove him to the other side. But I do think it's interesting that Seagal hates Brennan. And it made me think like why does she specifically hate him so much? But Taryn doesn't seem to harbor the same resentment. And I don't have an answer on this, I just think it's interesting.

1:07:51 Right. Like to me it would make sense if Taryn hated Brennan. That would be like the equivalent of how he would feel about Zaden if Violet gave her life for his right? Like he would be like fuck this guy right? Like are you kidding? Like he already kind of is like actually fucked Satan because he's a danger to my rider, to Violet.

1:08:08 Like imagine how he would feel about Brennan if Naolan gave up his life for Brennan or his humanity. But why Seagal if this isn't in defensive Terran situation or if it's something more like I think it's I think this actually just furthers Naolan has been in theory, like Seagal resenting Naolan's actions because of what they did to Taran.

1:08:29 Like Taran, if Naolan turned, Karen's not going to resent Brennan for that. He's going to resent Nailing. Yeah, yeah, I think that makes sense. I have a different. OK, what's your? Theory. I have a different one. I think they're both valid. We should talk about both of them. We know that Seagal's first rider was a reorse. Sorry.

1:08:46 We know that Seagal's second rider was a reorse. And we know that Seagal's third rider was a reorse. And Ryerson, whatever. What if Seagal has decided that like she is the keeper of the Bri Orson line basically right? Like she she is the guardian of the Bri Orson line and Lilith is the one who executed Fat right and Brennan.

1:09:09 But that doesn't work because she doesn't hate Violet. Certainly wasn't keen on Violet. Violet was an acquired taste for her. She calls her a tumor. She does. That's why I love the Gale. She's my favorite dragon Violet because in that light, in that passage where Brenna is like she just hates me, she always has violets, like she hates everyone, like I'm growing on her and she goes like a tumor. Yeah, I think.

1:09:30 That's. True. That is true. Maybe it is related to a little if that's a good point. It could be, but but now that I think about it, I think Brennan says she has always hated me. But how long did Brendan have known Segal? Why would Brendan? Brendan would not have known Segal before Segal bonded with Satan.

1:09:47 So that doesn't really so. So it does work like, like she's always hated me. That could only be 5 years old, right? Because Segal and Brennan would not have come into contact. Before that, it has to be related to it. I think that means it has to be related to what happened at the end of the Tierish rebellion, because Brennan only known Segal since that.

1:10:05 I think you're right. Yeah, either either resenting, either resenting Brennan because Naolan turned Vennon or because of a thing. I also just thought how sad for Seagal if she watched Taryn go through this with Naolan. And now, Yeah, she's going through it. Yeah, with Satan. So sad. And Taryn hates Satan. So it kind of worked.

1:10:26 Yeah, Right. Right. Maybe it's more about that. It's about that pain that they each know their mate is going through because the person that they trusted is not trustworthy. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Which brings me to Nayolan. Like, in my opinion, I now have as ironclad of the theory as I could possibly have on why Nayolan has to be Vennon.

1:10:46 Why are we so convinced that Lilith isn't Vennon? Because of how she died. Because of how she died. If Nayolan actually died of being drained, who would be dead? Brennan, Terran. Would. Be dead. We know that Taryn almost died. Well, yeah. I think it's because Nayland drew so much before finally turning to the source that he almost drained Taryn.

1:11:08 He almost drained Taryn, Right. OK, OK. Yeah, I think you're right. I don't have much to say about that because you have just convinced. Me and maybe I maybe I'm wrong, like maybe there's my pre corner theory, which we could get to now if we feel like it is about siphons and how they work. But like, I just don't see how Taryn could be alive if nail in like so.

1:11:31 So the only thing that I'll argue with myself on a little bit here is that we know that there's a difference between draining and burnout, right? Like burnout is like you take too much power and you let it burn you out. Yeah. And draining is like you run out of power and you drain your dragon too.

1:11:44 I had assumed that because Nailin was siphoning something or someone to save Brennan, that's the only thing he can do, right? That he died of draining. But maybe he died of burnout, in which case this does not hold water. No, I think right, right. Should have been. Yeah. Lillis. Lillis death is the blueprint here, right? Yeah, kind of.

1:12:04 Because, well, really, Sloan helps be the blueprint. But yeah, Taran almost died. Not out of grief. Taran almost died because Naolan channeled all of Taryn's power. Yeah, or maybe close to all of it. Like, we also don't know who Nalen was siphoning from. Like if he was siphoning from Taryn, OK, who else was there that he could have siphoned from again?

1:12:24 Like Brennan's death, like. We got lots of thoughts on it, or I have lots of thoughts on why it doesn't work the way that we've been told. Well, who else was there? I mean, what if Lilith was there? What if that's how she knows it's going to work with Sloane? Because it worked before? No, but Lilith doesn't know Brennan's live. Don't listen to me.

1:12:38 We know that Fenn was there, obviously, yeah. And I don't think we are told. Anybody else confirmed? But we still have the unanswered question of of the bond of Taran and Nail and. Nail and yeah, and like what the heck happened there? Yeah, there's. There's really only there's three options as far as I can see it, right? Vennon can break bonds because theophony says you can. You can keep your Dragons, not you have to keep your dragon, right?

1:13:04 That's option #1 Vennon can just break the bonds. Those bonds specifically option #2 Secret Era den broke the bonds. I don't think that's it because Terran would fucking know about the EAR. It's in that case. We've also had this theory since like Lunch Secret Ear Death. Or option 3, which in my mind is the most intriguing option. Terran is still bonded today.

1:13:24 Yeah. There are periods where he is just unaccounted for, where violence, like, are you going to come help me? And he's like, do you need help? Like, Yeah. And you do this on your own. Yeah, and if that's the case, like I totally think that's who he was bonded to for those five years also. So who was Nailin fighting for? I think, and I'm open to rebuttal here, but I think Nailin had to be either for the Tearish or a double agent. And the reason that I think that is it like if all of that went down, Taryn would have seen everything that went down, seen Fenn shoot Brennan, Nailin lose his life or his soul whichever happened to Brennan.

1:14:02 And he would have been like fuck the tearish I will kill them all. But he wasn't. And Seagal then went and bonded Zadan. So did Naolan also turn for love? Is he either pro tear ish from outside of Navarre or within Navarre? Like is he a double agent? Where is he at? Is Zadan about to go find him?

1:14:19 Like, I don't know. OK, wait, hold on. Walk me through it. So I think Naolan had to be sympathetic to the Tear Ish in some regard or like Taryn changed his mind at some point because if I'm Taryn and my rider just gives his life for somebody who was shot by the leader of the Tierish rebellion, if I'm Taryn I'm like fucked here Endor like I will kill you all and Navarre is right to not help you and to shut you down. But he wasn't.

1:14:44 And Seagal then went and bonded Satan and they were mates at that point. And so yeah, I think Naylan had to be sympathetic to Taryn door somehow in some regard. Or Taryn was around like with Marv when Brennan. Well, and that's a stronger that is a stronger argument for Brennan becoming sympathetic to tier endure as well, right, because like if Naolan gave his life fighting for tier endure right, then Brennan might be like, OK, this is a 'cause that the person I'm going to say loved, I'm assuming they're they were in love. The person I loved died for right. Then then I think that that makes more sense rather than fuck you, Fenry Orson, I don't want to have anything to do with you.

1:15:30 You fucking shot me with an arrow. Yeah. And we also have to assume that while this entire thing was happening, Navarre was still being kept in the dark about the Vennon. So there is also the very real possibility that, like, I don't think it's possible to assume that Taran didn't know about the Vennon because that would be really surprising.

1:15:45 But like, if Naolan didn't and Brennan didn't and they learned, they were like, yeah, great. And I mean. I had this in my notes. I didn't really have any evidence for it, but like, do you think Fenn really shot Brennan? Like, do you think that really happened? I think the that entire thing is not real like I think it. Was infantry right and.

1:16:05 We're what is Fen doing shooting a rider right, right on the back of an Erie? I don't know. Is it a crossbow? Yeah, yeah, I actually have this. So my next key player that I called out was Fen and my notes, I'm reading this because they're funny. I don't really get how he was captured since he obviously didn't die in battle, and also he was infantry, so how was she shooting a rider in the chest?

1:16:24 Question mark. Question mark. Question. Mark, but I assume Taryn incapacitated everyone, the point where the rest of Navarre's army could arrive and and deal with them. Like if I'm like thinking about what happened, Naolan does whatever he does, Taryn loses it. Like that's what I think happened then that.

1:16:39 Means that Naolan has not drained Taryn to his last. The point of all my time? Yeah, if. He goes berserk after then that's not what Yeah. God, and we know that like we know that like nail and dying almost killed Taran, like that's pretty widely accepted human. Unless This is why they want right?

1:17:00 Because Taran was fighting for Tyranor, Naolin drains him, Taryn is taken out, and now Navarre can swoop in and win. But how would that not be told? Not saying anything we're saying here makes sense. Yeah, right. That makes more sense. But why would Kiori like because. Because Taryn is so powerful and they want him on their side. But why would Taryn fucking go back to Navarre? He wouldn't.

1:17:23 I don't know. Unless Taryn and Sigel basically have a huddle afterwards and are like hey, the only way that we can win is from. Similar to what they do at the beginning of Iron Flame, right? Because they wouldn't kill Taryn can have Taran as an as a weapon, they wouldn't kill him, right? The next key player that I had, Gosh, this is shaping up to be a really long episode.

1:17:40 You guys are just gonna have to bear with us for this. We'll cut a lot of it out. History Part 2. Part 2. The next key player I had was Lilith. So if you listen to our podcast, you know that I think Lilith is the Snape of this series. I know that she ultimately captured then I do. I have the same question you do. Like how did she capture everybody? Storm wielding is powerful, but like, did she bring down the cliffs of Dreiler?

1:18:01 Like, I don't know. Yeah, the quote is her mom is responsible for the capture of nearly all our parents. This is to the entire group of marked riders at Baz Gaya. What? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So was this like a like hide and seek expedition that Lilith just like crushed everyone at? Like, I don't know.

1:18:21 I think she has to have see, this is this is where I this is this is where I get stuck. We know that she knows about the venom at this point, A, she's I think already a general, but B, she's had her face off with Theophany. We talked last episode, or maybe maybe we haven't. There's a quote, there's a quote that Theophany says your mother knew at her age that she was no match for me.

1:18:47 She says it to Violet, right. So this blows all of our a little. Didn't know about the venom. She was already like deeply entrenched when they told her no. Lilith knew at Violet's age when she was a cadet that she was no match worth first theophony. Lilith has known about the venom since she was a cadet, so she very much knows about the venom during the Tears rebellion.

1:19:08 I'm having a hard time. I'm having a hard time justifying her actions given that. Yeah, yeah. And I like, again, I think Lilith and Asher are Warwick and Lyra. Like I think Lilith actually was a bad guy through the rebellion and basically through the end of the rebellion, and with Asher dying I think she has a change of heart.

1:19:27 That's what I think about Lilith. I think you might be right. I mean, so I had for how is how could one woman, and maybe they mean she was responsible because she was like commanding the army or a troop or something, I don't know. But if they literally mean Lilith was responsible for all of their parents, she I think she has to have betrayed them basically, right?

1:19:48 Like she has to have known where they were meeting something like that and then betrayed them and said, hey, like or found out about it. I guess. I guess there is a a nicer look at this. But yeah, it's kind of. It's a puzzler for sure. Yeah, I have no good explanation for how she could have captured all of them unless to your point, like she, she is responsible for those who did, like leads the squad that did, yeah. And my only other thought on that, on why she would do that. I mean, again, I mentioned before that I was rereading the scene with Lilith and Violet after Zaynon breaks her out of the dungeon.

1:20:25 And she says twice she was like, you have no idea, like the lengths I would go to for my children. Violet says like, what about their children? And she says again, like when you have children, we can have this conversation. Basically I'm paraphrasing. And you know, she thinks Fenn just killed Brennan.

1:20:41 So like, is this all just revenge because Fenn an arrow through Brennan heart, you know, like could this have gone differently? Would this have gone differently if A she knew Brennan was alive? B Fenn, if he did put an arrow through Brennan's heart, had not done that. Yeah, and I think that's a case actually against Lilith being on the inside prior to the end of the rebellion, like if she were supporting them in some way. Like Fenn doesn't like hold love in high regard, but he does hold his children in high regard.

1:21:08 Like that's true about love. He's like, save love for your children. And so if they were working together, I find it hard to believe if that Fenn shot Brennan in the chest, or would have meant to at least. It all is so curious because like, because then there's the Asher question, you know? My next one.

1:21:25 OK, let's talk. About it can't not talk about him, right? Like I know that he was not mentioned at all in the context of the rebellion. I texted Ronnie, I texted Roddy. I said OK, you put key players in the outline, who are the key players? And she goes, well, I wanted to be a surprise. I think I said I wanted us to come up with them independently.

1:21:43 But I also kind of, yeah, as I was writing them, I was I was like, there's no way that if I send this list, she's not going to be like, where are you going with this? So Asher I included because one, because of the relationship with Lilith and 2:00, because of the research that he was doing before and around this time, Right.

1:22:00 So this one is complex because if you listen to her episodes, you know that I want to believe that Asher was a double agent. But if he were, he must have been super covert because Brennan, who is now a high-ranking member of the rebellion, says he, quote, chooses to believe that Asher didn't know about the Bannon. And so if you were, if Asher were a key member of the rebellion undercover or whatever, like Brennan at least would have figured out that that were the case once he got inside, unless he's an Agent day type situation. President City call out.

1:22:34 I have two kind of rebuttals to that on the entire leadership has been eliminated. The entire leadership of the first rebellion has been eliminated. They were basically starting from scratch, right? So if Asher was a double agent and the only people who knew about that was the leadership, then that knowledge went to the grave with everyone, right? Yeah, maybe.

1:22:53 But then there is Llewellyn and Lindell and Ulysses and Suri and I'm like where the fuck were all of you during the first rebellion? So like and you know that. Well, and at least is like friendly enough with them where I'm like, you were definitely just like overlooked in these executions. Yeah, right.

1:23:11 So, yeah, I guess the rebellion never really died, but. Right. Yeah. But yeah, I think, I think that's AI don't think he has to have been that deep. Right. Like if if Fen knew, if Mary knew, if Garrett's parents knew. I mean, I don't. I think Garrett. Do we find out that Garrett. Yeah. Garrett's dad was Fen's right hand man, right.

1:23:29 So if all of them knew, but only them. Yeah, then. And maybe it died with them. Secrets died with the people of secrets and all that secrets. Die. Thank you, Atos. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, obviously we knew Asher was researching about how to bring down the Vennon. Like he literally says in his note to Violet that he like, if if you need the weapon to bring these people down, like read here. Like, to me, that's a big like, I know about this and I'm trying to help the people who are trying to do something about it. And he taught Violet and Brennan Tirish. So maybe like, so to your point, maybe no one from the current rebellion knows him, but maybe he was supporting the last rebellion.

1:24:06 So Asher like I still think he I think he could have been what turn Lilith at the end of the day. Because coming back to Lilith right, like she there, there is reason for us to believe that she had been working from the inside, at least from the rebellion onwards. She doesn't regret letting Zaden into the Rider's quadrant.

1:24:23 Even after all that happens, she's still like, Nope, everything was to get Violet to this moment. And I think after Asher died, she made it her mission to finish his work. Like we have that unsent correspondence to him that's saying like, you didn't have enough time, you didn't have enough lessons that you could give Violet. Like all we can hope for is that she's, she says, I think she says specifically.

1:24:43 In that letter, like she won't understand and I'm like Lilith, I don't understand. I also do not understand. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think we, I, I think I unfortunately think this is one of those episodes where we don't have answers. It's just a lot of questions. But I think we're asking good questions and maybe the right questions, I don't know. Tears rebellion still a significant question mark. I have one more key player that is off the back of Asher and I'm curious what your expression is going to be when I bring it up. My last key player is King Towery and the reason that obviously he is the king of Navarre. So there's that.

1:25:18 Like he is the opposing side of of Tier Endor in this rebellion, sort of. But we had someone comment on one of our clips where we talked about how how did Asher know about Warwick's journal? How is he getting to the aisle? How does he know that Warrick wanted the words to be a secret? He seems to know a lot of things that are that we know to be in the royal archives. So someone commented on one of our clips that the soaring Gales and the Towery's were close.

1:25:45 We know that they were Violet and Holden dated Lilith and King Tarry like arrived at the unification celebration together. We know like we know the story. Gales and the Towery's were close. Could King Tarry have helped Asher get access to the things that he had access to and get this information?

1:26:02 I don't know. I'm not silent because I don't believe it. I'm silent because I'm thinking about it. I think it could have. It could actually not be that crazy of a theory. Like I definitely believe that King Tarry would still want to know how to defeat the venom because you see the doom coming, right? Like you see peromial getting encroached upon. So he's not a tearish sympathizer, but clearly he knows about the venom and wants to find a weapon to defeat them, which is what we know that Asher was looking. Yeah.

1:26:32 And so could that be how Asher was playing double agent as he was helping King Tarry figure out the weapon while also realizing all of this and thinking like, wow, it's really actually messed up that we're not helping peromial? Maybe I need to think about it. So we have a lot of open questions that tears your belly. Anything else?

1:26:52 Any other? Thing I have a couple things. So getting back to Lilith, Imogen says when we first meet Imogen and she's big, bad, scary Imogen, not the Imogen we love now, not that she's not still big, bad and scary when they're fighting on the mat, Violet and Imogen are fighting on the mat. She says you bitch she sees your mother murdered my family which I thought was interesting that she used the word murdered.

1:27:19 We also find out that Imogen's sister was executed as well, not just Imogen's mother. How much I thought was interesting. We don't know how old Imogen's sister was, but it is stated that it's the parents of the of the children of the rebellion that are killed, not the siblings. However, it also says every basically every rebellion rider was put to death.

1:27:39 So maybe she just fallen, fell into that category and wasn't necessarily executed by Kodak, I think. Yeah, I mean, I don't have, I have other quotes there, but I don't have much more notes there. I just think it's interesting to remember that the sister died. The next thing I have, I went back and I reread Lilith and Terence kind of interactions at threshing right after Terence has bonded Violet. And there's, I mean, obviously there's going to be a moment of recognition, but I feel like there's an oh shit moment on Lilith's part.

1:28:07 So the quotes are Taryn and Violet have just showed up at at the flight field. I guess it's the flight field, right? And obviously she has bonded Taryn. So she's looking at Lilith and Violet says and now she's staring at my dragon without even bothering to look down and seeing if I'm all right, fuck her. So I wrote seems like they know each other. Is Lilith worried Taryn will tell Violet about the Benin? She says don't say it about Terrence name. Don't say it.

1:28:31 Mom has his her eyes on Tara, not me. Not until she does. Obviously we're seeing this through Violet's eyes that like she thinks that Lilith thinks nothing of her that Lilith doesn't believe that Violet could bond such a powerful dragon. But now, obviously rereading it and going back, I'm like, is it actually that Lilith is looking at Taryn and going oh fuck, oh fuck oh fuck Taryn knows everything.

1:28:52 Like am I about to be in danger here? Is he about to tell Violet about the venom? Is he about to tell Violet about the Tearish rebellion? Like, is everything about to blow up in my face? As you read that out loud, I also had thought, I agree with all that. Yeah, I think she she definitely like I think when she saw that Terran shows Violet, she was like, OK, I knew this was going to happen anyways, but like cemented that Violet will be sympathizing with the Tearish.

1:29:15 Like, yeah, that would happen. Good point, yeah. But also, do we think that Lilith is on to the fact that Dragons are changing their names and bonding relatives of separatists? And that's why Lilith was like, let her say it. He was waiting to see if he would say if he changed it. If he changed it.

1:29:33 Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. That'd be maybe I had that thought, too. Could be all right. My only notes on the rebellion ending were Fenn shooting Brennan with an arrow and then cat. All caps. Other Dragons took care of them and hit them in a network of games. Crazy. Big neon letters other.

1:29:51 Dragons. There are other Dragons here. There are other Dragons here. What? Just all those other Dragons? Those casual other Dragons? What the fuck? Yes. Anyways, All right, I had. One more note on the Terrace rebellion. Did you have anything else? So I looked up the meaning of the word apostop, Apostasy.

1:30:12 Apostasy. Thank you. There's a political definition. There's another definition, the formal disaffiliation from, abandonment of, or renunciation of a religion by a person. It can also be defined within the broader context of embracing an opinion that is contrary to 1's previous religious beliefs. So my mind again went to OK, is there an element of the gods here?

1:30:35 Was Tyran door renouncing some of the gods? Were they embracing new gods? Is this about? I don't know, but I thought it was interesting that they call it an apostasy. Apostasy. Yeah, they. Call it an apostasy, which no one in Navarre calls it, but that's what the tears call it. Was there a Were the gods involved?

1:30:54 Somewhere, yeah, I definitely didn't think of that. I fully thought that apostasy was like their rejection of the belief system that then and or not and it could be a thing here. Yeah, I guess I don't know what gods they would really be rejecting because they have temples. Are they rejecting the non religious affiliation that that seems to go like Navarre is not super religious, right, Not the way the Isles are, right?

1:31:20 So they are, they are rejecting that. And they are, Yeah. And they have the huge temple to Amari, right? That's like their landmark. So maybe it's maybe they were trying to come back to the gods. Maybe interesting. OK, OK. Tears. Rebellion. You hear it here first. We still don't know anything.

1:31:43 Yeah. That should be our T-shirt. We still know nothing. You know nothing, Abby and Ronnie. We know nothing. Well, that was a Jon Snow joke. But I know, yeah. OK, tell us about Bizgayeth War College, all right? So maybe we should have done this in the last episode because I believe that Bizgayeth was founded around the time of the unification. And the reason I say that yeah, it was a war camp, right? There is a quote in Iron Flame Chapter 7. There are 89 of you in this room. From what the scribes tell me, you are the smallest class to walk this hall since the 1st 6:00. So it was a hall.

1:32:22 It was not just to war camp, but in my mind that means it was, it was a, it was built basically. Already existing. Which makes no sense. Which makes no fucking sense. Yeah. Like what was it before that I? Don't know the 1st 6 had to go to dragon school. Who was teaching them? Who was teaching them how to ride a dragon? Anyway?

1:32:40 I don't think this was. I don't think this makes any sense. The only thought I had is maybe it was a war College in Moraine before the unification. So maybe it was like a but we talked about how it was a war camp, so it was founded right after the unification. This I thought was interesting. It was built by a man named Aaron Norris. We know this because Violet says. I sent up a silent thanks to Aaron Norris for building Baz Gaia with stone stairs instead of wooden ones with the potential to creak or burn.

1:33:06 I believe this is when they're going into the dungeons to face off against the Benin that are near Jack's cell, Baylor, who's one of the first years in their squad. His last name is Norris. So I'm like, is this a descendant of Aaron Norris? Does that matter? I don't know. The only thing I'll say about that is that once again, when Violet thinks this, Taran gets sketchy. Taran says pay attention to the present, not the past. So I don't know why Taran would be sketchy about the construction of Baz guy at War College except for what we just mentioned that it doesn't make any sense. But we know when Taran said well, we hypothesize that when Taran says pay attention, it means there's dragon secrets afoot, basically.

1:33:43 Yeah. The only other thing is that it's it's built on runes apparently, which I think is interesting because we know that runes were a tierish custom. We talked about how runes kind of like it doesn't make sense that runes existed before dragon riders. So like what is tier indoors role? Because I'm assuming it's the tierish that are experts on them at this point. What is tier indoors role in constructing Basgaya? Yeah.

1:34:07 What do those runes do? And we know that the runes in Orisha, I think are like there are masking rooms that Orisha is built on that conceal Orisha fly overhead. Yeah. All of Orisha. I don't know if it's all of Orisha, but it's definitely the ward chamber, at least the. Ward chamber for. Sure. And the regardless, like those exist. And so like, are there protective runes that this guy was built on?

1:34:32 Probably if I'm the builder of this guy, if I would like some, Yeah. That's all I really had. Did you have more? I did, but this guy at the War College sits at like where it's located. It sits at the intersection of Marine and Deaconshire, and it's like pretty close to the border of Luceris, but not super close.

1:34:49 It's notably not built in Caldeir, and that the fact that it's not built in Caldeir is brought up a suspicious number of times. And again, Kaldeer is where King Tarry and the royal family generally reside. And there were, like Violet mentions in her narration, there were political ramifications to establishing Basgayeth where it is and not in Kaldeer. So why could it have been necessary to establish there? I don't have a super complex answer, I just think it has to be about why the veil is where it is. So when we think about like what makes sense, right? Kaldeer is the furthest province from the Barons with the exception of Lucerus, and so it makes sense that we'd want the Royals to live as far from the

1:35:30 Venice stronghold as possible. The Dragons have also seemed to have chosen the westernmost ancestral hatching grounds to establish their new hatching grounds. The green hatching grounds are the westernmost and they're the furthest from venin. So I think because like I basically hypothesized that between when the first six approached the dens and when Bezgayeth was established, it was an agreement between eat Dragons because this was a war college, but the riders were like dependent on the Dragons effectively to just exist. I think the Dragons basically said, hey, like we'll go as far West as possible.

1:36:07 We agree with you there. But like, you're going to build your war college on top of our hatching grounds and you're going to establish your ward stone here. Yeah, so I mean, I agree with all that. There is a quote that implied that from Warwick's journal that says after we placed the last rune, we placed the ward stone where the Dragons felt the deepest currents of magic run.

1:36:26 And I know Rebecca has talked in interviews that there's there's currents of magic basically running through the continent and magic is not magic has different strengths depending on where you are. So according to Warwick, this is where the deepest currents of magic run in the continent. I think there's a couple things there. 1 is that because of the veil and because all the Dragons are hatching there now?

1:36:46 Or is it that the deepest currents of magic are there so that's where they chose the veil to be? We don't. It's kind of a chicken, a chicken dragonite situation if you will. 1/2 the Dragons said that. That's where the deepest current of the magic is, and we know that the Dragons lie. Yeah. And if it if it if it is where the deepest currents of magic run?

1:37:04 Like why did only the Greens? Why did only the Greens have their ancestral hatching grounds there? The greens have the strongest connection to magic, right? Or the most stable connection to magic. Yeah, interesting. It's a good point. I don't know, maybe the Dragons used to fight each other. Yeah, that's just like also brings me back to like if we, if we are relating Dragons to gods and the greens are related to Amari, who is the queen of the gods, maybe that has something to do with it. But yeah, like that's why the because she's the queen of the gods.

1:37:32 That's. Where that's where there's the most power. Yeah, maybe. The only other note that I had is that Lyra was Deputy Commander General of this guy at war camp in its early days, so. She defected to tyranny. Yeah. So I think we can reasonably say that the six had a hand in where it was built. And I think we should talk about the magic currents again, right? Like, OK, did Lyra place that ward stone in Orisha because of the IT comes down to is it politics or magic, right? So did she place the ward stone in Orisha because Braxton was willing to put wards there and to let the people of peromial in?

1:38:07 Or are there deep currents of magic there as well? Yeah, I don't think we know. I don't. Think we know? OK, anything else on Disgaea? Yeah. OK, so our last topic is I cleverly titled it Undocumented history. I don't know why most of the history in this freaking series is undocumented. We'll start by talking about the Vennon cover up. I mostly have prompting on this topic, like I have some theories.

1:38:30 We know, right, that the Vennon have been effectively erased from Navarian history. We've been told it only takes 1 a desperate generation to change history. Think we can reasonably assume that when Navarre went to war with peromial 400 years ago, so call it 230 AU, the then and were erased from the archives. That's what I thought.

1:38:51 That's what I always thought, that that would be the answer that makes sense. But Violet specifically says that she thinks it was 400 AU. So 200 years after that and I'm with you. I'm like it only makes sense for them to have started doing this with the war in paromial right? That is what would make sense. But she specifically says 400 AU is when she suspects the cover up started.

1:39:13 Then was there another cover up? Because we also know that nothing in the archives is older than 400 years. I thought that everything was wiped when the conflict started, but there could have been 2 cover ups because we also know that the Irids were covered up. I had assumed. I mean, I'll just talk through what I had assumed.

1:39:28 Then let's talk about why Violet decided to prove it wrong and whether it's an oopsie or not. We have probably inferred that. I inferred that this was related to the Vennon rising to power, Navarre not accepting refugees, plus controlling the talladium and peromial being desperate. War was declared and Navarre basically said we have to remain in the image of the good guys and in the image of protecting our people.

1:39:50 We're going to erase the concept of Vennon from the archives. I had also assumed that the Irid cover up happened around the same time because the Irids were like known by the six and lira. Like she made a second ward stone and said like in case the others returned. I think the Irid cover up happened when Baz Gaiath was built because there are only 6 Dragons in the Rotunda. So whatever happened it had to have been bad enough for Warwick.

1:40:17 I mean, and we talked about this last episode like if Warwick actually was trying to erase the Irids or not, but whatever happened was bad enough for the earrids to not make it to the Rotonda or it's an. Would it be that weird if they weren't carved into Bizgayeth if they chose not to bond? Bizgayeth is dedicated to riders and earrids don't have riders.

1:40:37 Maybe that's a good point. And Lyra like brings that second ward stone, creates that second ward stone Narisha in case they returned. I don't know that it necessarily. I don't know the Irid recovered up that early I. Don't know. Yeah, you might be right. It seems weird to me though, that there would be no record of them.

1:40:53 I don't know in my mind that Rotunda was kind of the definitive proof that that they were trying to erase the earrings from the history books immediately, but. I can't rationalize those two things happening separately though, because like, what's really the point of covering up the earrings if you're not covering up the venom?

1:41:09 Like why? Why cover up the irids? What is the motivation? Well, we're told Warwick's motivation is that he doesn't want anyone outside of the wards to be kind of like safe. He doesn't want the power of the wards to be extended to anyone else. Yeah, but just because the irids exist doesn't mean that that's why he covered up how the ward stones were created.

1:41:27 But just because the irids exist isn't your right. Oh God you can make wards. Yeah, I don't think we have a good explanation for why the Irids have been erased from history. Yeah, I feel like they were covered up together, but maybe they weren't. I also feel like they were covered up in 233 AU when they went to war with colonial but it says 400.

1:41:45 So what is the actual quote when Violet says that I don't have it written down? But when did we close our borders? As soon as we unified? Or closer to 400 AU when I think we wiped the history from the books. Are we sure that Rebecca didn't mean to just write 400 years? Ago I know I like bang my head.

1:42:01 Again, in Fourth Wing Chapter 35, we are told that nothing in the archives is older than 400 years. It would make a lot more sense if it was 200 A. And 400 years ago, the Four Hundreds were was the second Krovlin uprising. Why Violet? Oh no, it doesn't make any sense. OK, open question there. I guess then we.

1:42:25 Still like. Nothing. We still know nothing. I feel like we we don't need to belabor why the venom were covered up. I think that's well understood. When I thought I knew, I guess I don't. I don't know. But we do know that the venom cover up is inextricably weaved with cover ups of runes. Cover up of irids.

1:42:44 Like when did all of these things happen? I would have assumed that it was just a fresh start from the archives, like when we got rid of everything older than 400 years old, we just took out all of that. That's what I had assumed. Just what I would have assumed as. Well, all right, fine. Anything else on the best cover? Up.

1:43:00 I think it's interesting that we have a you mentioned this before. Nothing in the archives is more than 400 years old. So we have a forget exactly what the term was on Hidotis. But my mind went to Hidotis right where they are getting rid of everything old. I think it they call it a beautification, right?

1:43:19 And replacing it with new things. So they're doing it with their architecture, but Baz Gaya did it with their with their the. Intention. The. Intention. OK so here's actually a theory we haven't talked about at all but that I had had at one point. We are assuming Baz Gayath leadership is covering up the venin to justify their war with peromial. What if it's Baz Gayath?

1:43:41 Leadership has been infiltrated by Venin and the Venin are covering up the Venin to make them less able to fight against the Venin. Yeah, I think both of those are distinct possibilities. Yes. In fact, I think they probably are both true, actually. Like anyone who's not Vennon thinks that they're covering up the Vennon to protect their own borders, and the Vennon in leadership are covering up the vennon.

1:44:02 So they can be like gotcha. Yeah, gotcha. I'm surprised. Yeah, I think they're. I do think they're both true. I also like the venom can channel within the wards. So what's that about? We still don't know. I have. Nothing to say the wards make. No sense. What is the point of the wards? Sense. What is the point? Just the Wyvern can't fly through them. That's it.

1:44:22 The Wyvern can't fly through them. Jack and channel. Yeah, the Venom can channel people. Turn within the. Wards. But people can turn within the wards, right? So remember the end of Iron Flame? Where it's not the end but Lilith is like your wards are failing, the Flyers can channel and Violet is like oh shit you're right the Flyers can channel. Couldn't the Flyers always channel within the Arisha wards? Wasn't that kind of the point?

1:44:44 Maybe. Maybe this is something I totally. Ruins on the Arisha Wardstone. We're always supposed to let the Flyers channel. That's nearest whole point. Yeah, right. Right. So so the Flyers should have always been able. It's it doesn't mean the wards weren't falling, but that piece of the argument doesn't work because the Flyers were always supposed to be able to channel under the Arisha Wardstone. I don't think Violet knew that though. She didn't.

1:45:05 She didn't. Yeah, but it's just. But that's not an actual indication that the words were falling. They were. They were. But the Flyers could always chin. Yeah, I mean, I assumed that Lil, it's just like had never seen the oration ward stone or just was just like, I assume it's the same ward stone.

1:45:19 But Lyra is a flyer lover, so she made sure that that one was going to work for them. Do you think that Warwick just loved Lyra and Lyra actually loved the flyer and it was an unrequited love situation? I don't think Lyra loved work. I don't know who she loved, but I don't think she loved. Yeah, well, there's that quote about the opposing ideologies anyway. I can't wait for The Real Housewives of Navarre. Is that what we should have called this project? Real Housewives of Navarre?

1:45:45 Well, no, because neither of us are housewives. Of us are housewives and there's only two of us. We're not drunk all the time anyway. Anyways, when have we fought the venom before? So like, I just think that we've never not been fighting the I. Kind of agree. I don't know how much to discuss here. We see the map in Arisha and we know that they have been rising for years just on that map alone. I just think they've been progressing since 600 years ago. But I do think there are had to have been times in those 600 years when they were beaten back. And so like, that's what I choose to think about is like when could they have been beaten back? If they had been right, like rising at this pace for the last 600 years, we'd all be dead.

1:46:26 Like we'd be done. There's no way, so I assume they've been to the aisles as Violet directly asks in Courtland and he was sketchy about it. Like did the Eareds help them beat back the Venon? I don't know. Did Peromial have some success in their studies and methods where they could beat back the Venon over the last few centuries?

1:46:47 Probably, but I don't think they've ever been actually defeated. I agree and. Here's my. Other thing, even if you beat every single venon, killed all of them, what's to stop someone from turning venom someone new right? Like, can you ever really beat them? Right. Yeah, like as long as somebody is aware that they can put their hand on the ground and channel from the earth like there's really nothing.

1:47:08 It's not like Venom have to have venom babies to. Continue. Like they just spawned. It's not right, right. It's not like they're not like a breed or a species that like, yeah, yeah, right, right. Yeah, I agree with you. Are we ready to move on to pre card corner though? You know, we've been talking over 2 1/2 hours. Even if I have other notes on here, they could not have been that.

1:47:31 Fair enough. Fair enough. OK. So one thing that I noticed actually, as I was doing some research on Brennan, the venin seemed to be coming from the water. And the reason that I say that is in Orisha, when Violet's there for the first time, kind of like conscious and talking to to Brennan after they have been apart for six years and she just found out that he's alive. She's looking at the map in Orisha, which actually has the like venin markings, right?

1:47:59 And I kind of latched on to this quote, the red ones, meaning the red marks on the map mark not only the oceanic eastern border of the Krovlin Province along the Bay of Malik, but are heavily concentrated N into the plains as well, spreading like a disease. So they're on the, they are coming from the oceanic border and spreading into the plains.

1:48:20 The orange ones, those heavily concentrated along the Stonewater River, which leads straight to Navarre's border. So we know that they're coming from the Bay. They're clustered around the Stonewater river. Like why are the why are the venom moving along bodies of water so well? Yeah, and they're coming from the Barrens, which has been drained of all magic.

1:48:45 So what is feeding them? Right. And we've talked about the water being vibrant before. What does the water have in it that could be sustaining the venin? At first I was thinking about this like, oh, do people just travel along bodies of water? Like, is that just like an easy place to travel? But it's actually not, especially an oceanic border.

1:49:02 Much easier to just travel across land. If you look at the maps, the Barons is obviously all the way to the east. Krovla is to the West of the Barons, but there's the Bay of Malik in between them, right? And so they're coming across the water. We're in class, everybody pull up the map. So the Venant drained the barons.

1:49:23 We know that for sure. Now we see that there are a bunch of red marks along the oceanic eastern border, so along the basically western border of the Bay of Malik, eastern border of Crova. So they're either coming up and then down or they're just coming straight across and then up heavily concentrated along the Stonewater River, which is that river that runs from the tip of the Bay of Malik into the mountain range basically. So this got me thinking great, like the aisles have no magic. We have talked before about have the venom been to the aisles? What if the venom are like actually traveling by water or maybe even being powered by water? Yes, maybe, maybe like maybe I don't know. And then I took this theory like

1:50:08 way too far. And I was like, what if we, we talked last episode about the irids and how they're effectively a different species from Dragons. And then we talked about how Aric, Aric said like, very bold of us to assume that we're the only continent. What if like to your point on the origin story being different from the Great War then and are traveling by water?

1:50:28 Like what if there is another continent and that is where the Irids are from and it's just Irids and Benin and that's it? I don't think there's, I don't by the theory. I don't think there's a world in which the Irids and the Venin are living in harmony. Definitely. Yeah, I agree with you. Not Harmony.

1:50:40 We get that from the ear. It's just being like you're an abomination, yeah. Really. Yeah. But I kind of, I am starting to buy into, I'm definitely buying into the idea of water magic and I'm buying into the idea of there being another continent. Yeah. So I just finished a book where there were two different kinds of Dragons.

1:50:58 There were there were fire breathers and there were water based Dragons. But and Arna has did breathe fire. We don't know if the other can. Breathe fire. I don't know. And is it one of those things where like the Irids have just assumed that they they couldn't, but then and Darn approves that they could? Like maybe they didn't know that they could have tails that were not feather tails either and Darn is breaking all the rules. Yeah.

1:51:21 So I don't know. No, I like it. I like all of them. Keep them coming. We'll see. OK. All right, you want to skip Reading Corner? I already did my reading Corner. I'm reading Thrones of Glass, and you should too. Throne of Glass. Round of Glass. So just for listeners, we usually round out with what we're reading.

1:51:38 You're reading Throne of Glass, which we talked about the beginning of the episode. I am like very like slowly trying to reread a guitar in preparation for our next season. I'm not doing a great job. I'm just like, I'm reading the first. So light a guitar. Spoilers I'm reading the first one. I'm just like, wow, this shit's boring.

1:51:57 Like other than the few like interesting pieces I come across where I'm like, oh, this like could be a theory like and I would say there's like maybe one or two every few chapters. I'm just like. Hear what you're saying. You know I read ACOTAR knowing that the first book was not representative of the entire series.

1:52:15 I still found it enjoyable, but it was also my first introduction into this world. So yeah, I get it. I I'm on the first read. Enjoyable as well. Yeah, literally. Well, that was Part 2 of history. It was a little bit of a winding Rd. so thank you for sticking with us you're still here. Thank you. Please continue reaching out to us. We are on Instagram, TikTok and YouTube as Dragons in the details pod.

1:52:41 We also have a discord at the beginning of this episode. We. Should have called it panic at the discord. That has nothing to do with Dragons working and we also have an e-mail address dragonsinthedetailspod@gmail.com. Feel free to e-mail us. We've been getting your emails and we love them. We love the emails guys. It's so heartwarming.

1:53:01 Even if you have, even if you have no note suggestions, just like say hi. Other people are doing it too. It's OK. It's no worries. And we'll say hi back. Yeah. Yep. OK. All right. Thanks for listening. I love you. Bye.