Onyx Storm: History Part 1 - The Origin, The Great War, and The First Six

0:16 I thought we were doing mailbag too. Wait. What episodes are we doing today? I thought we were doing Part 1 of history and Part 2 of history. I don't have Part 2 of history ready. No fuck my bad. I thought we were just doing Part 1 of. History OK Mailbag OK, that's fine. I prepared in the wrong order of. Priority, but that's all.

0:35 OK, Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. That's OK. But now you're ahead. Sure. All right. Hey everyone, I'm Ronnie. I'm Abby, and this is Dragons in the Details, where we pick apart our favorite fantasy series over the course of an undetermined, still undetermined number of episodes. I still don't think we have a. Finally scheduled, perhaps?

0:56 This series, if you're new here, first of all, if you're new here, hi, great to see you. Welcome. Have you? We have still have some new people. So like, yeah, that you're here. We're happy you're here. We have several episodes out already. You're welcome to start there. You're welcome to start here. I personally don't think it matters very much and we're happy you're here.

1:16 I would say it doesn't matter except that we do sometimes reference our prior crazy theory, so, but we try to get them contact. So like if you hear us talking about the voice in Violet's head and you're like, what the fuck are they talking about, then you might want to go back and listen to some other episodes. Yeah.

1:31 True, true. Yeah, anyways, we already gave this away, but if you're new here, we are focused on the Empyrean series by Rebecca Yaros for this season. You probably gleaned that from the episode title, which probably has Onyx Storm in it to some extent. So, so that's what we're focused on. We're calling it Season 1. I don't know that we're formally splitting it into seasons, but that's what we're doing right now. Disclaimer, these episodes will contain spoilers up through Onyx Storm.

1:56 So if you've not finished Onyx Storm, first of all, highly recommend. Second of all, save this, come back later because it'll be really fun for you after you do. Also, due to the contents of this series, this podcast is rated R and should only be listened to by mature audiences. I have a friend who texted me two days ago.

2:14 She said I just finished Onic Storm and I'm like, great, how did you feel about it? And she goes, I have so many questions and it took all my willpower to not say, great, I have a podcast. Do I have the podcast? For you, she knows about it. Like she knows that. But I like, I don't need to just promote my own podcast with this personal conversation with my friend right now.

2:34 But he's like, yeah, we too have a way to find those answers. Or more. Questions. Usually more questions. I know it's funny, I feel like this entire podcast has actually just been a series of like, me going through every single thing I wondered about throughout this series that I never got an answer on.

2:51 I. Will tell you right now. I will tell you right now, I, after having done a deep dive on this history Part 1, have way more questions than I had the first time I read it. Like the first time I read it, I was like, I don't need to think about this. And now I'm thinking about it, I'm like, nothing makes sense.

3:06 None of this makes. Sense Yeah, yeah, yeah, this was a fun one to prep for fun, but like overwhelming. I prepped a lot and I still don't feel like I got everything. So this is a great one for our usual methods, which if our listeners, for those who don't know, like we prep separately the answers to the same questions. Or at least that's how we've been doing it so far, with a few exceptions.

3:29 And I like it because I catch probably 50% of things and Abby catches like 70% of things. And usually that that's like overlap works out well in both of our favors. Yeah. And when we miss things, you guys let us know, which is great, we love it. We do love that and we have things to say about it.

3:47 Amazing. OK, corrections, omissions, social media shout outs. Abby, do you have any for the class? OK, I do thank you. Thank you for calling on me. Oh my God, this is going to be a wacky episode. All right, I have two omissions. I think they're kind of omissions because I, you know, I go back and I make clips for the episode.

4:06 So I think about our prior episodes and what we've talked about and then people comment and stuff. So I have two omissions. 1 is from our signet episode and one is from our Dragons episode. I'm going to start with the Dragons episode. So I have seen a lot of chatter online and I'm going to start off with I have no idea where people came up with this, but I've seen a lot of chatter online. I'm not saying there it's without merit. I'm saying I personally don't know where this idea came from that Taryn and Segal, in order to have stolen the dragon eggs at the end of Onyx Storm, had to have killed the Elders in order to do that in the Imperium.

4:41 I don't know where that came from. I don't. I don't. But I've seen chatter about it online. My response to that is This is why there are theory that there's now 2 Imperiums is important, right? Because Taran and Segal, well at least Taran is an elder now. So Taran can make this decision obviously with consulting the Imperium, but he is part of an Imperium now, right?

5:01 So Taran can make the call that yes, GAIL and Zaden can take these dragon eggs somewhere. So it's not like they didn't have to run it by the Imperium. They are their own Imperium and they can make this decision on their own. I think that's why because because when I was saying, oh, you know, there's a second Imperium here, I was kind of like, does that matter? So what?

5:18 This is why it matters because they can make this decision. I don't know where killing elders came from, but I don't think any elders were harmed in the making of this book. It also seems like very off brand for everything we've been taught and told about Dragons. Like they protect their own. Yeah, all the time. When I was rereading the scene where and Dharna kills Solace, is it Solace or is it?

5:41 Yeah, it's not bait clearly when and Dharna kills Solace and Taran is like like the Empyrion understands why she did it. But like that mark leaves make will always leave a mark on her soul, which I think is interesting. Something to think about that. And Darna's soul has also been changed, right? But it's like Dragons, like Taran didn't kill Solace, right? He took his eye out instead because like I think that's just a line that Taran wouldn't cross. So I don't I don't know where that theory came from, but This is why it matters that Taryn and Seagal have gone off and formed their own Imperium.

6:11 Anyway, you look like you have something to say, no? I'm just laughing. I'm just laughing about how many things that have cropped up on the Internet, like Internet theories where I'm like, where did this come? From I know, I know. Like what? Was the one you brought up that one time was like Bodie really marrying Violet? Yeah, Zayden had Bodie marry Violet, which is just absurd. I don't want to.

6:32 I don't want to speak ill of anyone. Everyone out here thinking about this story, we appreciate you. I will say in our mailbag episode that we're going to record today, I basically have just dedicated it to debunking crazy theories. That's going to be bulky. That's fun because I've kind of done the opposite.

6:48 I've gone and tried to. Prove some crazy theories. All right, great. Maybe we have the same theories and maybe it'll be a little bit of a debate, which should be fun. All right, my second omission we talked about in cygnets. My precoc theory, which is not that crazy, is that for Irids, cygnets are a permanent gift, right? They're not something that is bestowed upon the rider and determined by the rider.

7:10 It's a permanent gift. Thinking about this more again, I was rereading some Antarna scenes is why Violet still has the dream walking ability when Antarna is gone right? So like when Antarna leaves and goes off with the oath and Violet is still able to dream walk. Yeah. And I think This is why, because it is a gift. It is not, oh, you need to be near your dragon. You need to channel from your dragon. It's a combination of the dragon and the rider. I think it's just this is Aunt Darna's gift too, Violet. And again, I don't think it makes much sense that it's dream walking when we know she was in a dreamless sleep, but whatever. That's a different thing, basically. Yeah, I think.

7:43 I think it being a permanent gift explains why she was able to do it when Antarna isn't around, when she doesn't have Antarna's power anymore. Yeah, I still just the concept of that sleep being dreamless gives me a huge pause. But that's a totally different topic that I'm not ready to get into right now. Yeah, yeah.

8:00 All right. Do you have any corrections, omissions, social media shoutouts? I have, I have a couple. Yeah. So the first two are more fun than anything else. And they are social media shoutouts, but they're also corrections and omissions. But they shouldn't be. OK, so so in I forget which episode, but when we were talking about Theophany bleeding, your clip that we posted that blew up on TikTok. Okay, I have two comments.

8:24 Thank you, TikTok. Thank you TikTok, except except I'm responding to right now. Okay, two things we love you to be clear. One, I just want to say how much fun I had with all of the comments of people saying I pronounced it like Stephanie with a TH. Wait. Like people were commenting saying like weird that you pronounce theophany that way.

8:47 I always think of it as thefany. That's. Hilarious. However, I assure you that theophany is pronounced in that way. It's funny because in my mind it is like Stephanie. Like that's how I read it the first time. I'm like, oh, it's Stephanie, but it's Theo, so it's theophany. I don't I that's funny.

9:04 OK, Isn't any. Biblical character. I've heard the name Theophany before. Yeah, and it is pronounced theophany. Theophany. Like if it was because Stephanie with the TH, then it wouldn't have the O, right? And then it would be pronounced Stephanie. Yeah, I can't say it without laughing because it literally just sounds like Stephanie with a wisp.

9:23 All right. Well, on that note, we actually did get a comment that Atrum is pronounced utrum. OK. That's helpful. I don't, but I then looked it up on YouTube and I still got Atrum. I actually got a Atrum, I think. So I don't know on that one. I don't think we're going to say that Dragon's name this episode. So still TBD but if you guys know let us know. I mean, I think we to just a big disclaimer to everybody who's listening, right, I think we're grossly mispronouncing Gaelic names, even if we say them the same as the audiobook like that is not, we know that it's not the pronunciation. I'm going to try and do better going. Forward and yeah, like we absolutely want to be respectful and like I want to pronounce

10:01 these names the right way. I'm so open to like learning and understanding it. It's just I don't have time to check every single name. I'm really sorry. We both work full time shops. Like it's kind of tough, but if, if you guys, yeah, just let us know. Just correct us and then we'll know. Yeah, that would be helpful. Yeah.

10:19 And then the second is on the same video. So many, so many of you. And I know it's probably not the people that I'm talking to right now. It's just the people who listen to our clips on social media and that do not listen to the podcast. But everyone was up in arms that we didn't quote, realize that the stone in the dagger was from the temple.

10:38 I promise you of. Course we do that. I promise you, we do. I promise we posted a 62nd clip of an 108 minute episode. I promise you that. We know that is all. Yeah. So like I said, all of the so 1 I feel like big learning for me through this podcasting process about social media is the ones that really take off end up being like 70% rage bait and like 30% like, Oh my God, I love that this.

11:06 And so that is my response to you. We love to turn off because people thought we were stupid. Great. There was a mix. There was a mix, but I'm here. I'm out here defending us. All right. Thank you. You're doing doing the Lord's work. And then I have one more shout out. That is, we got our first e-mail.

11:26 Yeah. We've actually gotten 2 emails. We've gotten 2 emails, yeah, but we said we promised that we would shout out the first one. So here I am shouting out the first one. Especially because I think this e-mail is going to be relevant in History Part 1 and Part 2. We promised we would read it in its entirety.

11:44 As well. Are we perfect? I've got it up. I've got it up. So our first e-mail was from Yankee. Thank you so much for sending it. I googled how to pronounce your name, so I'm really sorry if I mispronounced it. I'm doing my best, Yankee wrote first. I love your podcast. Thank you. Thank. You Yankee. Then she's she wrote they wrote I actually do not know your gender.

12:03 I apologize. I was doing a reread and found on page 264 chapter 18 of Iron flame that Zayden says Violet speaks tearish and after learning that his dad picked which languages Violet was going to learn and the rest of the languages Danes should learn makes me think that he parens Asher chose tearish intentionally.

12:22 Also when Lilith said and we have done was to prepare you for this moment to Violet before she died makes me wonder if they somehow knew that she would end up as the Duchess of Terador and that's why Asher taught Violet that language specifically. I somehow read the signs of these sentences in Iron Flame and Onyx Storm as if that was one of the paths Asher was told in the aisles Violet ends up in and he prepares her for it.

12:44 This might be a way off base theory but would love to know if you agree or disagree. First of all, I do not think that it's way off base well. First of all, first of all Yankee, thank you for coming with receipts. Very much appreciated down to a page number. Great. Love the page numbers, love the receipts, love that you spanned books too.

13:01 That's like one of my new favorite things is going back and seeing whether there's more evidence for something in Iron Flame or 4th Wing because we get like such information overload and Onyx Storm. Like I like to test it. I totally think you're right. Violet and Brendan were both taught Tearish by Asher and Asher make sure that Dane knows Krovlish in case because he knows that Violet is weak in it.

13:22 I think he even writes in his letter to Violet that he made sure that Dane would know that that in case she struggled. So we know Violet was taught Tierish and old looser ish. Dane was taught Krovelish and old looser ish both by Asher. And then we also know that Brennan was taught Tierish but not old looser ish. And so we'll talk about this more in this episode. But I think so far we have been presented with a possible reason for all of these, like rationale for all of these languages being taught to who they were taught to by Asher. So I totally think Asher knew about their different paths and planned for them accordingly.

13:53 I think it's such a great call out. I think my only the only thing is that when they're talking to Narelle and Deverelli, she says Asher would have never seen this coming. Like Asher would have never expected you to be in love with Zaden. But that doesn't mean he didn't think that Tierendor somehow played a role in her future. Yeah, he wouldn't have seen her being in love with Satan coming, but does that speak more to Asher's relationship with Fenn then like Violet's involvement with Tierendor? I think he just thought that Violet and Dane were destined. But I don't even know he writes in his note to her that she has to drop him like a hot potato if he follows his father. Good point.

14:32 We've already expressed my theory that I think Lilith totally set up Violet at Zayden. Yeah, I think this is Lilith's doing all the way. Yeah, he's been hers for longer than she can ever imagine, Right? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. But thank you for the e-mail that made us so happy. Like truly, when we received it, we texted each other like, Oh my God, we got an e-mail. Yeah, it's so great.

14:54 We love hearing from you guys. I know I say that all the time, but it's true. We do, we do, we do okay. Any other corrections, omissions, social media shoutouts before? No. Well, okay, I had one and this literally happened this morning, so I didn't put up any. I didn't write any notes about it, but I thought this was an interesting idea because we've talked about we've talked about on our Cygnets episode how Dane is the only intensic that we know that needs to touch someone in order to read their memories and how we think that's bullshit. We're calling bullshit on that being a thing that's needed. Someone wrote, I'm sorry, I don't have their names. I don't have it pulled up right

15:25 now. But someone wrote that they thought Dane definitely knows that Zayden is Venom because because he can read memories, right? And I'm like, OK, well, I see what you're saying. And he apparently he acts really sketchy on his notice. I didn't go back and check that like because this just happened, but like he gives like Zaden a lot of looks on Hidotis.

15:44 And their theory is that they know that Dane knows that Zaden is an is a Veda now because he's read their memories. I think it's possible. I don't think he would have read Zaden's memories. I don't think he would have read Violet's memories because they're so strong with their Shields. But like enough people at this point know that Zaden's Avenin, like it could have been, could have been Bodie, could have been Imogen, could have been, you know, Garrett could have been one of those that I think it's an interesting point. I also think it might not matter because I definitely read the end of Onyx Storm is OK.

16:14 Everyone knows Aiden's event. And at this point, like, I don't think it's a secret anymore. Yeah, agree. Yeah, so. Everyone talks about like towards the end, like Ryerson's doing, as if that's like a very problematic thing. So I also read that that way. But interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't really think about.

16:32 Yeah, interesting. OK. Anyway, anyways, shall we get into it? Yes. Oh my gosh I'm so excited for this first topic because I've been fiending to talk about this ever since I saw what is that woman's name who makes the Tik Toks about 4th wing that we watched all nine parts of her Onyx storm reaction. Oh my God, Emma, is it Emma?

16:53 I think it's like bubbles and something with champagne. We got to find her because her theories are so good. They're so good. So I guess just a fun anecdote. When we when Onyx Storm first came out, I had a party which was an unhinged probably like the most thing I've ever hosted. But Abby was over and our friend Jenna and we were just.

17:15 We literally had. I need to find it. I'll put it in the show notes. Like actually the morning after the party. So we were just sitting around your table hungover as fuck, just like watching these videos for like an hour and a half, just like flipping them. Like literally the phone was propped up against a plant and we were like. Scrolling on TikTok listening to these theories. Anyways, I've been excited about the origin story since that moment.

17:39 So I think two big topics that we want to cover here and theories related to all of them. One is the creation story, and then two is the Great War. So maybe we just start with context on the creation story. And before we get into this, like we're going to try as hard as we possibly can to explain to you what we know, because we know that this history has been spread through these books in a very disparate manner.

18:02 And so we're going to try and say like the facts, if you will, and then start talking about theories so that we don't lose anyone because we know that this is kind of a convoluted, this is going to be a convoluted couple episodes. OK, So I'll start with what we know on the origin story and then we'll just rift back and forth on theories.

18:19 OK, OK, So what we know about the origin story. So the origin story for context is a tale that we hear primarily from Violet as it relates to a book her father gave her called The Fables of the Baron. So let's first talk about the Fables of the Baron and like how it came to be right. We first learn about this book in Fourth Wing when Violet has it in her pack before she cross his parapet and mirror comes in as like, you're not, you can't cross with all that shit.

18:46 And so she empties her pack to lighten it and Violet leaves the book in her room. We learned that dad gave it to her, Asher gave it to her, and it's childish. It's a collection of stories. It warns US against the lore of magic and even demonizes Dragons. But it's all she has left of her dad. And Mira gives us another little hint as to what's in that book when she says dad and his allegories.

19:10 Just don't try to channel power without being a bonded rider. And the red eyed monsters won't hide under your bed waiting to snatch you away on their two legged Dragons to join their dark army. So we know that this book that contains this origin story has allusion to like it talks about Ben and it talks about Wyvern. And so we also know that in their household then and were a topic of discussion and something that Lilith and Asher made sure that their children feared, even if they position them as fictional, which is interesting, right? Because we know that Lilith and Asher knew that then and were real.

19:38 Yeah, OK. Yeah, yeah. Keep going like with like. This is so there's so much. To there's so much, there's so much. I'm so excited. So we so yes, we know in their household that in our topic of discussion, which is so fascinating to think about now, right? Because we know that these little kids thought that they were scary fictional beings and the parents knew this is a real problem outside of our borders. And then we learn when Violet gets to Bizgayeth and starts talking about these like scary children's stories, that these are commonly spread as spoken word in certain provinces. So we learned that re Rhiannon.

20:11 Is familiar with these fables as spoken word, bedtime stories, and she's from Moraine, but someone named Luca didn't. So there are certain families, potentially certain provinces that do spread these fables as spoken word, but we don't learn of any other written copy. So we learned that the Fables of the Baron might be rare. It might be a single copy because Violet requested from the archives and Justinia has never even heard of it and isn't able to find it.

20:38 So Violet gets her copy of the Fables of the Baron back from Mira in Montserrat I think, and she finds a letter in it from Asher, and that letter says by Violet. By the time you find this, you'll most likely be in the Scribe quadrant. Remember that folklore is passed from one generation to the next to teach us about our past.

20:57 If we lose it, we lose the links to our past. It only takes one desperate generation to change history, even erase it. I know you'll make the right choice when the time comes. You've always been the best of your mother and me. Love dad. So that's how we get to the Fables of the Baron. I just want to talk about this book itself because I think there's a lot of questions around the, the like physical book. So first thing is Violet describes it as an ancient and heavy tome, right?

21:22 So ancient and heavy tome. So I, I have heard a theory going around that maybe Asher wrote the fables of the Baron, because this seems to be the only written version of this of these books. I think it's disproved with this ancient heavy tome description however, unless the errors are time traveling, but let's just push that aside for now.

21:40 So I do not think that Asher wrote this book. However, do you think 600 years qualifies as ancient? Like do you think that that's enough years to qualify something as ancient? This is my precog theory. Well related I mean. So no, I don't think 600 years is old enough to qualify as ancient. So I don't either. So question #1 where did this book come from? Like who wrote this book?

22:06 How did Asher get this book? The only place that I can think of that we know is more than 1000 years old, that has more than 1000 years of history is Deva Rally. That's the only place it's been mentioned. Right. I have one rebuttal to this to being older than 600 years, and that is we have no reference to it not being being written in Navarian.

22:27 Like, we just haven't heard about you. No. Yeah. Translation. Yeah. It seems to be written in the common tone. Seems to be written in the common language. It's a good point. It's a good point. So was it translated by, like, ancient? I mean, when I think about if I were holding a book that was 600 years old, it would feel super old to me, right.

22:45 Like, yeah, in that time, would I call that ancient? No, I wouldn't, but I would call it an old freaking book. For sure, yeah. I just don't. I mean, yeah, 600 years. I don't know. I've never held a 600 year book. But I don't know, Agent Ancient to me says more than 600 years. OK, so homework for the next session. I'll go to a rare bookstore and get a book that's 600 years old and then we'll see how ancient it feels. I mean, that's pre American, that's significantly pre American Revolution.

23:13 Like, maybe it is. I don't know. But all right, so that's my first question. Yeah. So I made a note of this too. Asher read these stories to her every night, every single night, right? Asher is reading her these books about the Vennon and not saying, hey, by the way, these are very real. These are real.

23:32 You need to protect yourself. No. What the fuck Asher like? Well I mean in his defense, right? Like if his kids ran around saying that Vennon were real when Navarre had clearly made a concerted effort to wipe them off the face of the earth effectively in terms of history and cleared them out from the archives when they went to war with Peromial.

23:54 Like, I wouldn't tell my kids they were real either. Yeah. I guess, I guess all of that is fair, but yes, Asher made sure this knowledge, much like the Tearish language was there for Violet and that she knew and she knew it better than Brennan. Right, Because at the beginning of Iron Flame, Brennan says something like we don't know where they're hatching the Wyvern from.

24:12 And she says you mean creating. And he's like, what are you talking about? She's like, don't remember the fables like dad taught us that then and create Wyvern. They're not hatched like Dragons. So Violet has a stronger grasp on these tails then Brennan. Second question, how did Asher get this book?

24:28 If this book is so rare, how did Asher get it? I have a theory. This gets back to our favorite military rankings and how they align with Asher's life timeline, right? So we know that there is a book that is referenced often in this series. The epigraphs are pulled from it called Colonel Jackson's Guide to Excelling in the Squad Scribe Quadrant.

24:48 We also know that Asher changed his Latin Asher's maiden name. I don't know what it's called when you're a man. Asher's maiden name, I don't know, was Asher Daxton, but he changed his name to Asher Sorengal, and I don't think he ever made Colonel. Maybe he did, but whatever. The point is, the point is Colonel Daxton is not Asher.

25:08 Colonel Daxton is someone who is related to Asher, but not Asher. My money's on Grandma, who was mentioned in On a Storm, right? So my money is that Grandma gave Asher this book and has this has maybe been a Daxton family heirloom for many, many, many generations. I don't have quotes to back that one up per SE, but I think Grandma's going to give us more answers on this. One, so you think it could have predate like basically been passed down the Daxton line predating when we went to war with peromial and wiped out the archives, Yeah. I think, I think this has been like a kernel of knowledge that has been passed down from generation to generation. Yeah.

25:48 And now Violet has it, yeah. I assumed that he got it from Narelle. Also possible, Yeah, she runs a bookshop in an aisle that had shit around for over like 1000 years. So I figured that he got it. But that seems, I mean both of them I feel like seem very plausible. It's interesting to think about if it is. Is that grandma is this scribe?

26:10 It did pass down this book. Like has Asher always known about the event and cover up? Like did he find out about it or did he always know about it? I think it's a curious question to ponder. In which case, that's why he became a scribe, because he was like, I have to like, yeah, infiltrate this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

26:27 It's an interesting question. I definitely assumed. I always assumed that Lilith found out because I think anyone who raises to a certain rank within the military finds out. I don't know about Asher. It makes it makes sense that Asher would have known for a longer period of time. And that also, I mean, we'll talk about the Cherish rebellion in the next episode, but think Asher's hiding things.

26:49 As per usual, All right. And then I also just wanted to talk a little bit before we get into the stories. You mentioned this briefly, but like the way that the tale of Event and the fables of the Baron has kind of been passed down orally outside of this book. I thought there were a couple interesting patterns here.

27:05 And all of these quotes are from 4th Wing. So re who you mentioned, is she from Moraine? I didn't realize that, but she says she's from a village on the Cygnus and Cygnus and I don't know border. So she's like, right on the border paronial, right? Yeah. My mom used to love telling my sister Reagan and me that we'd be plucked right off the front porch by one if we talked back, and their eerie eyed Venom writers would take us prisoner if we took trees we weren't allowed to have. Reese says, flashing a grin at me, and I can't help but notice that her step is lighter.

27:33 Reese story, right? Like basically this is a bedtime story told by children to make them behave. And then Zaynon says, my dad used to say venom, we're bidding their time in the barons and one day we're coming to get us if we didn't eat our vegetables. So kind of a similar thing, like the venom are going to come for you if you don't behave kind of like the boogeyman. But then we have a quote from the Fables of the Barons that I think makes this really interesting. And it's an epigraph from 4th Wing Chapter 36. It says for there in the land beyond the shadows, where monsters that dwelled in the night and dined on the souls of children.

28:04 So now we have kind of three different places where we're talking talking about Vennon stealing children, Vennon and Wyvern stealing children from their homes. And I'm wondering if that's leading to something or if that because all of this was at 4th wing and hasn't really come back for Onyx storm, Onyx storm or Iron Flame.

28:20 So I'm wondering if that's like, OK, this was like Rebecca was going in the direction of this like traditional folklore boogeyman stuff. Or if like we're going to find out the Vennon are actually stealing children for something. Yeah, it's, it's interesting like that. So we're breaking our own rule and we said we wouldn't get into theories, but. Let's just sorry A.

28:39 Second, Abby. Sorry. So the stealing of children, I actually like. I think that could have like really interesting meaning because it doesn't add up. I also think that could be something that was added by like parents, spoken word, things like that to make this more of a fable, right? And make it a way to caution against men and without it being believable. Because we've never seen a child Vennon and vennon stop aging seemingly when they turn.

29:05 And so if the Vennon are stealing kids, are they just food power, like they're drained and they die? They're not turning from what we've seen, unless there is an army of children, Vennon, running around somewhere. And we know that that Vennon woman, we keep coming back to this quote, but that venom woman who attacked the town left her children right so. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

29:26 So that part like I kind of feel like that's maybe a nothing burger like. It's. It might be. Something that was added to make it more of a children's story and make kids afraid of them. Yeah, make it more of a traditional eat your broccoli, do your homework situation. Yeah, right. All right. Sorry I got us too far into theory. Let's go back.

29:45 No, it's good. OK, let's talk about the actual stories in the Fables of the Baron. We had to piece this together over just like a bunch of different quotes across the book and we don't really get, and that's one thing that I find incredibly frustrating is Violet has so much information in her head from reading these books that we as readers are not Privy to.

30:03 So we're piercing it together based on like, what she chooses to narrate to us. Which is. Infuriating. Love it. No, I love it because when I go back and these books, I realize that there's so much that I just accept in my head as fact. And then I go back and like, well, actually, Rebecca never told us this. Like we just pieced this together. I love that.

30:21 Yeah. So. Here are the things that we know are contents of the fables of the Baron. We learn that there is an ancient Kingdom again, that word ancient that spans from ocean to ocean and a Great War capitalized. G capitalized. So this is my first question. This is my first question. Can I finish the sentence?

30:43 Yes, and a great. War among three brothers who fought to control the magic in this mystical land. Please. What is your first question? Is it the same question as yours? Is this the same Great War? Yes. Yeah, that's. Right that that is like I. Don't think so. Theory line number one. I think it's the same Great War. I don't think so.

31:05 I don't think it is. I don't think it is, but. Let's think about it in a moment. Yeah. OK. OK, so that's what we first thing we learned about the fables of the Barrett. There's an ancient Kingdom that spans from ocean to ocean and a Great War capitalized G capitalized W among three brothers who fought to control the magic in this mystical land. Ocean to ocean sounds like a continent. OK.

31:25 Some of the fables tell stories of the first riders who learned to bond with Dragons and how those bonds could turn on the rider if they tried to consume too much power from the dragon. So we're learning that there's there's talk of the concept of burnout. Others other tales talk of a that spread across the land as man became corrupted by dark magic and turned into creatures known as Venom, who created flocks of winged creatures called Wyvern and Scourge, the land of all magic. In the thirst for more power we hear another tale talks about the dangers of wielding power from the ground instead of the skies, as one could easily start drawing magic from the earth and eventually be driven mad.

32:03 The fables are also how we learn that Venom channel power into Wyvern. They note that as well and Violet mentions specifically that there is a quote creation fable. So we're calling it origin story. She's calling it creation fable. Like it's the fable of how the world that we know came to be. This is what we're referring to when we say the origin story and it's specifically called the origin in chapter 37 of 4th Wing in that epigraph. So in this origin story, we're told what we're we're told in the in a paraphrase manner by Violet. I want to make that super clear.

32:34 We're told that one brother bonded to a Griffin, 1 to a dragon, and when the third grew jealous, he drew directly from the source, losing his soul and waging war on the other two. The Creation Fable also involves battles between the Dragons, Griffins, and Wyvern, and Violet notes that during the attack on resin. So the reason I found that interesting is we hear in Violet's paraphrasing of the story that the third grew jealous and waged war on the other two. But the Creation Fable also mentions battles between Dragons, Griffins, and Wyvern, and you're reading that as like. Dragon versus dragon.

33:06 No, I'm reading it as Dragon. Versus Griffin, Yeah, OK. Yeah, I didn't assume that the Dragons were inter fighting. Yeah, I didn't either. I didn't. Either until you said it that way. That was like, Oh yeah, I. Don't know, yeah. And then that the last like piece of like pure fact that we have from the the story is the direct quote.

33:25 But it was the third brother who commanded the sky to surrender its greatest power, who finally vanquished his jealous sibling at a great and terrible price. There's a price that's from the origin the fables of the Baron Chapter 37 and 4th wing. So I love when our notes. Are just exactly the same.

33:41 You can probably tell how we. Arrived at it, which is this is everything we found in order so so those are the fables right. We know that there's Benin there's Wyvern and the origin story is specifically about three brothers who who bond to a Griffin, a dragon and who channel from the source and the third brother vanquishes the jealous sibling who channeled from the source at a great and terrible price.

34:05 What are your theories? So what did I talk about? The Great War I don't think you missed. I don't really think you missed anything. Let me let me look real quick. So I think, yeah, I, I think I just want to dive into whether or not this Great War is the same, is the same Great War as the unification and why I think it's not. So first, we've, we've kind of been given two different stories about how riders and Dragons bonded, right? So the first is that this brother 1 bonded a dragon, right?

34:34 So that's the, that's the first thing. One rider bonded a dragon. The second story is the first six riders were the first six riders to successfully bond Dragons and survive, right? So we already have two conflicting stories about how humans and dragon riders bonded. And this might be getting ahead a little bit, but my my my big question about the first six, about the 1st 6 bonding to Dragons is that Taryn tells us that the reason that Dragons agreed to bond with the 1st 6 was because they did not have opposable thumbs to weave runes that would protect their land from the venit. How did the Dragons know what runes are if no humans have bonded to them yet to use their power to weave runes? This does not make any sense.

35:17 Well, you're assuming the Dragons. Never interacted with humans before bonding. I'm assuming humans. Never had access to magic before bonding Dragons and therefore could not have possibly woven runes can only riders. Weave runes, riders and Flyers. Those are the only ones with access to magic except for Venom. So like, I don't think there's a couple things that could be going on here either.

35:38 The first six are not truly the first six, right? Well, we're told. We're told that. The first six were not the first riders, they were just the first to survive. Sure. Yeah, I. Think it's unlikely that someone learned long enough to figure out how to weave a rune but isn't considered a rider, but sure, yeah, I think there's possibilities here. 1 is that Dragons and humans have been bonded for way longer than we've been told, and that this brother was actually the first brother to bond a dragon.

36:06 And the first six just showed up for the war basically. But that history has been changed and not talked about for some reason. That's option one. Option 2 then. And came first then and came first then, and figured out how to use magic, how to weave the runes. And Dragons are like, oh, actually we want that. We want that power for ourselves to protect ourselves else from the banner.

36:25 Option 3. Something I have not thought of. I guess I'm just trying to think. The way that I understood the dragon bonding to have happened, I guess I agree with you that the first six and the three brothers are not the same. Like I don't think it makes sense for them to be the same either. The brother was one of was like the first of the first six.

36:44 But I think we're told at some point, and I can't really remember where, that the first six basically approached the dens like in a time of death. We actually they were like, you need your help? Yeah. And. So like that to me says there was some sort of deal that was brokered, like they needed the Dragons, and the Dragons had to have a reason to want to be with them. And so why could that reason not have been? We want access to runes.

37:08 We want access to signets. Well, that's what Taryn tells us it is. It tells us that they want access, right? So why can those not be the? Same thing. What do you mean? Like why? Why does that mean that the Great War here and the brother who bonded the dragon can't have happened at the same time as the six because it's two different?

37:25 Stories. We're being told two different stories, right? One is 3 brothers and the other is the first six. So you think, Terence? When he's describing his lineage and the fact that there were no humans involved until the 1st 6, that's just like he's lying. Not necessarily. But I think that we have basically been told two different origin stories about how humans and writers and Dragons bonded, and I think one of them is not true. Yeah, I agree.

37:49 I haven't worked out the details of what isn't isn't true necessarily. But I think these are two different, these are two different stories, and they're both are supposed to be the origin of how humans and writers bonded. Now, that being said, maybe the origin story isn't true. It's a fable. Like maybe it's just not true. Yeah.

38:06 Or maybe there's some? Sort of symbolism and that I don't know. It's interesting though, right? Because we kind of just everything that isn't Endeavour, Ely is only the history that we have only goes up through the unification or through the Great War, right through the beginnings of the Great War. So we don't really know what happened before that, but clearly things were.

38:25 Happening before that clearly. Yeah, right. So what were those things it's my question. We definitely don't know we. Don't know that, but I do think, I mean, there's something here like there's a reason that we've been given this information this way. We were told that Dragon bonded for the first time during the Great War and this creation story is telling the story of allegedly the first time that a human bonded a dragon.

38:47 So and the Great War being capitalized is a little on the nose. So I think clearly we're supposed to be wondering this. And so maybe you're right, maybe it's not the same because if it were the same, then it would be too obvious that's. That's my. That's my. First thought is that this Great War is not the same as the unification is my first thought.

39:05 My second thought about this. You're squinting. I'm not convinced. But I I think that's OK. I find it very. Unusual that in a culture that worships gods, the gods are not part of the origin story. Like I think that's strange and I'm wondering if these three brothers might actually be gods somehow.

39:26 Like are is it Malik loyal and who's the third God Hideon? Or is it? Or is it are they not actually brothers? Are they just siblings like? Yeah, are the gods. Involved, I mean, as far as. Theory on who the three brothers are in my mind, they have to be one of two things one they could be gods just like you described or two and I'm thinking OK, who could they have been that the sibling feud resulted in literally a division of the continent. And I'm wondering whether they were three Royals, like 3 royal siblings that started like a massive war over a sibling disagreement.

40:00 And then like the entire line of peromial, the Barons obviously is is dead, but like, you know, there's been in there and Navarre are like. The descendants of those 3 royal brothers and were those Royals like if this is an ancient Kingdom that we're talking about, are those Royals actually gods like are the are the gods depicted to us as gods but actually they're ancient royal magical humans basically maybe yeah so I. Mean if we look at the Great War, the unification, Great War, right?

40:29 Our major players there are General Daramore, who's the leader of the Army of the Barons, which we now know is the Venom King, Reginald, who's the 1st Nevarian King Warwick and Lira, who are both part of the original 6. We don't know the other, the other 6 yet and the other four. And then there is a mention of a king named Braxton, but we don't have a timeline on him. We don't know when it's a flyer he rolled. He's a flyer, right?

40:52 So he would be the peromial. OK, So yeah, I mean, it could be Reginald, Daremore and Braxton. There's certainly three men, but I don't think we know enough about them yet to really say. Yeah. And then it gives us. A little bit of like, interesting room, right? If we start thinking about the three Royals as like 3 rulers, then are the six like independent or not?

41:16 Like not in contradiction of them, if that makes sense. Like, could the first six, could the five have been like 5 rulers of the other provinces or something like that? Like does does the three Royals mean that the first six couldn't have existed at the same time? I don't know. I don't know the answer. Well, we know that.

41:33 Navarre had a king after the unification, right? Right. So. The king was not. Where did that king come from? We don't we. Don't have any record of him being one of the first six. Yeah. Yeah, right. So where did he come from? Why was he able to declare himself king? What made him so fucking special, you know?

41:51 Yeah, I don't know. That started the sibling. Fight. I don't know, Yeah. So I think. This is what I was referencing before when I said the more I think about this, the less it makes sense. The two conflicting stories of the first people who bonded with Dragons, the 2 great wars. What's going on here, Rebecca? What are you trying to tell us?

42:08 I don't know, but something, yeah. Or the classic is? It an oopsie? I don't know. I don't think so. Pretty big oopsie. I don't think, I don't think so. Like she continued to follow through with the face of the Baron and the Six. Yeah. Yeah. I think I. Agree with you. I don't think that Asher authored the Fables of the Baron, but I do think the Fables of the Baron was a way of preserving the true history of the Great War in a way that would be remotely acceptable to pass on. That's my view on it, and now you've got me. Thinking, what if it's not Navarre? Like, what if it's not this continent, right? Like, what's his face?

42:50 Eric Arik, I was told it's Arc, not Eric Arc has that line when they're in Hidotis, I think where he says we call it the continent. But that's very arrogant assuming there are there aren't other continents in this world. Basically like what if it's not? What if this is all already played out somewhere and we I mean, we know they're sketchy as fuck about the map, right? So what if this is more of a warning story? This is what happens when you when you deal with this type of magic and the continent is not Navarre. Yeah, it could be another.

43:22 Continent. We have no reason to not believe that seeing as we do not have a world map. The map is a point of continue to be. Very pissed off about, yeah. All right. Anything else? On theories about the well should we talk about the three siblings outside of like who were the actual three siblings sure what do you want to talk about I. Mean so.

43:44 I guess to start, like there are, there's lots of talk out on Internet forums about the siblings being likened to the Soren Gale siblings. And so my opinion is that the most interesting question is who could the three siblings have actually been? But of course, there's also a lot of speculation on like, what parallel do we have between the three siblings Blings and like the characters of this story.

44:07 So I've heard Violet being the writer, Mira being like like into the flyer, especially things since she's about to have this thing with Drake and then Brennan being Vennon. Like I've heard that I struggle with it honestly. Like Mira is not a flyer. She's not right. She's not a flyer. Brennan is.

44:26 Maybe he's Benin, maybe he's a human Wyvern, but like, we have no evidence to that fact either. Amended the. Wardstone I'm not convinced, Guy Yeah, so. I mean, I think if anything, like if there's anything interesting to think about with the current characters and their relation to the three brothers, I think it's interesting to think about like, OK, maybe Violet is descended from the Ryder brother, maybe Cat and what's her name, Serena.

44:54 Serena are descended from the flyer brother. And then as far as like being descended from Vennon, like you got to listen to all of our episodes to date to understand our perspective on this one. But like, there could be obviously like offspring of human and Vennon. Sure. And like, the only two that we've even thought about really so far are Dane and Violet and Zaden. And Zaden.

45:20 Zaden is currently Benin. Yeah, he's also no fun. Yeah. So I don't know. But of course, what I'm saying is there's a lot of talk about current characters and the relation to the three siblings. I don't think any of them are particularly fascinating. I agree. Which is why I kind of didn't really spend any time with it. I I thought you wanted to talk about how there's, like, ambiguity in the language of the third brother. Yeah.

45:43 So like, well, the the ambiguity. Though that's why I noted that like, the paraphrasing by Violet was important there, right? So like, Violet calls the third brother the one who drew from the source, but then the epigraph from the fable calls the third brother the rider. And so is that just Violet paraphrasing weirdly, Yeah.

46:04 Or is there something nefarious in there about the rider? Yes, Right. So. Wait, let me see if I can find it. So one brother bonded to Griffin, one to Dragon, and when the third grew jealous, he drew directly from the source, losing his solid waging war on the other two, right. So that's the one where he he drew directly from the source.

46:22 AKA we read that as Vernon. But then the actual quote as you just mentioned is, but it was the third brother who commanded the sky to surrender greatest power, who finally vanquished his jealous sibling at a great and terrible price. So kind of weird there because they say the third brother who commanded the sky to surrender its greatest power.

46:38 If you're still reading that third brother as the third one who drew directly from the source, then the sky would be the source and that would cause you to lose your soul. But then it also says it was the third brother who finally vanquished his jealous sibling at a great and terrible price, And we know it was the third one who grew jealous.

46:56 I'm going to be honest. I just think this was a paraphrasing. I just think, yeah, I just think everyone's overthinking it. Like, yeah. Like it's so weirdly phrased. Like, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I do think I. Think it was a matter of paraphrasing versus the actual text. Like the jealous theme carries over correctly, right?

47:16 Like the one who drew from the sources. Still the jealous 1 so I don't. I do think you can draw. Power from the sky, Obviously I think that, but well, we're never told Yeah, the. Source is very intentional language, like they do not say the ground at any point. No point is the ground mentioned in this fable.

47:32 OK, I feel like we're circling a little bit. Should we move on to the Great War or is there anything more to say on the fables of the Baron? Nothing except. Then we talked about this at length in the Violet episode that obviously Violet also has referenced multiple times as having the capability to command the sky.

47:46 That ties her to the third brother. And yeah, yeah, I think that's a really. Important point, actually. So they reference that brother as the one who commands the sky. And a venin also tells Violet she is the one who can command the sky to surrender all its power. Like yeah, the reputation of. Those. Two phrases is, I think significant. Yeah, the quote is it's.

48:09 You, the dark realtor says over the growing noise of the storm. The one who commands the sky. Oh how I'll be rewarded when I return with you. And then another one's to vennon actually say this to her. Another one says such untapped power. No wonder we were called here. You could command the sky to surrender all its power.

48:25 And I bet you don't know what to do with it, do you, Riders? Never do. I'm going to split you open and see where all that astonishing lightning comes from. And then Violet even refers to herself. I am the sky and the power of every storm that has ever been. I am infinite real God language there, Violet.

48:40 So the only other thing I would add, which seems once again very sketchy, is that there does not seem to be an answer on how to defeat the venom in these books. And Mira even calls it out when she's giving Violet back the book. She's like, oh, what would you do if you didn't remember how to defeat the venom? And Violet goes like, shit, I don't remember how to defeat the venom.

49:03 And it appears like it's just not in here, which I think is kind of interesting. It's like, why would you leave that out? Yeah, because. Otherwise you wouldn't have. Story, I guess, but I mean totally and I think. I mean, I called it out with emphasis when I was explaining the history, but I think, like, my biggest question, and it's truly just a question because I have no thoughts except for crazy ones, is they the the brother who commanded this guy vanquished the jealous sibling at a great and terrible price. What was the price?

49:31 What did he give up? Wait, Yeah. The price? Fuck, I didn't even reprise that. The person who vanquishes the Ven and. Has to give something. Is it magic? Is it their connection to their Dragons? Is it their life? Like, what is the price? I think the price is going to be paid by either Violet or Satan or both.

49:49 Fuck, I love you, Rebecca. Yeah, I just read that and thought it was a Venon thing, but it's not. It's not. It's not. What is the price of commanding the sky? What is Violet going to have to give up? What is the price of vanquishing the Venon? That's the price. What is the price anyways? I don't. I truly don't have an answer.

50:06 Like, I know this is not news to you, Abby, to anybody who's listening to our episodes for the first time. Like, I have big questions about whether everyone ends this, like, series with their power and whether humans are meant to have magic at all. Like, what is the price? I think, I think it's going to be tear.

50:24 But who knows? Losing your dragon. Seems like it could be a reasonable price. And can some Who can lose their dragon without losing their life in this series? One person, one. Yeah. Yeah. OK. Well, bad news bears for Violet, I think. OK, OK. About the Great War, we should, you know, All right, so I.

50:45 Have here notes participants and alliances. So we have the Dragons and the Griffins on one side fighting against the army of the barons is how it's described in fourth wing. But we know that that is actually the Venant and they were at that point and probably still are led by General Darren Moore.

51:02 Here's where it gets kind of that's like the general story. Here's where it gets a little more interesting, where you need to read the between the lines of it. The the aisle kingdoms allied with Navarre and Peromial in the war, right? So 600 years ago, the Aisle kingdoms were willing to fight against the venom with Navarre and Peromial. What has changed in those 600 years? Why are they no longer willing to fight this fight? Right?

51:24 Like what? What has happened that they're saying no, fuck you guys, we're going to stay on our aisles. We're not going to give you any troops except for Zenal Zahelma. Sorry, so I thought that was kind of an interesting quote or interesting thought experiment. The Venin were defeated. They did beat the Venin. Seems like a lot of them were killed off. Obviously not all of them.

51:47 At the very least they were. They were returned to the Barons and were no longer thought of as a threat, so there is something that can defeat the venom. They did it 600 years ago. I'm not sure that that's the only time in their history that they've done it, but they at least did a 600 years ago.

52:04 Once the war is over, the ward stone at Basque Gaia is fired to prevent anyone except the Dragons from wielding magic within the wards, including Griffins, which I think is very interesting. You just fought a war with the Griffins at your side. Why? Warwick, I'm looking at you. Why would you create wars that specifically prevent Griffins from wielding any magic within your territory? Something fucked up happened there, something bad happened, and then the official start of the Navarre peromial war is not for another 200 years.

52:34 So like, what? What's going on there? And I think we get a hint of that. In work in LIRA as well, which I assume we're going to get. Yeah, we'll talk. We'll talk about all that. So basically we know. That Work was the one who made that decision. Because we have a quote from Iron Flame. I believe Lilith is talking to Violet. She says Work never wanted anyone else to hold the power of the wards.

52:57 He wanted Navarre to eternally hold the upper hand. But Lyra thought the knowledge should be shared. Work lied. I whispered, but about what? So we get that quote in Iron Flame. So we know that. We know that basically it was Works idea and probably the Dragon's idea as well to not not have the Griffins be able to channel.

53:15 Do we want to get into why that might be now or do we want to talk about theory later? We'll talk about theory later. So after after the war is over, after the ward Cernet Baz Gaiath is fired, we have the migration of the 1st 6 where King Reginald gives the residents of Peromial one year to enter the safety of the ward. So they weren't complete Dicks about it. They said you have one year.

53:33 You can move your entire family here, but not if you're bonded to a Griffin. In that case, fuck you because you won't be able to wield. Yeah. And then, yeah. And then my last note is it seems like the Dragon Griffin split happened after the Great War, but the Navarre peromial war doesn't start until about 200 years later. Anything else?

53:50 Anything I missed in that overview? The conclusion of the. Great War is that we have three different regions with three different ruling quote bodies, right? We have peromial and Navarre and then we have the Barons. We have 6 provinces that became Navarre and three provinces that became peromial, right?

54:08 So we have Caldeer, Tyrandora, Marine, Deaconshire, is that how you say it? And Elsom, which we've heard like literally nothing about. Yeah, those 6. Problems. We've heard very little about Deaconshire as well as well. Yeah, although. It's much closer to Bezgayeth. So at least that like I'm like, OK, you're not off on an island, not literally on an island.

54:28 And then Krovla, Breivik and Cygnusen, yeah, became peromial, which I just think is, is interesting to note, right. Like those why those six provinces? Why those 3 provinces related to hatching grounds probably. And then we know that the ward stones were created during the unification, but we've only we only here confirmed that one is right at the at the time of unification.

54:49 So I think. There's two I I have a thought on why we're told that the border of Navarre is exists because that is as far as the wards will stretch basically. So they've like reinforced the wards as much as they can. It will stretch to the Esben mountain range, which I think is also convenient that there just happens to to be a mountain range there, with the exception of Tierrendor, Right.

55:12 Tierrendor is not behind the wards. Yeah. So once again, why would Tierrendor join Navarre? I don't know. Yeah. So Navarre went. To war with peromial 400 years ago. So call it around like 230 AU and we don't really know why. So let's talk about that part in in theories. But we can probably infer that it was related to the Venn and Rising and Navarre not accepting refugees.

55:35 Plus like Navarre controlled most of the Talladium production. So we also know, as you pointed out to me right that nothing in the archives is older than 400 years. So for whatever happened, like why ever it happened, Navarre went to war with peromial 200 years after the unification happened, and that for some reason led to Navarre wiping Vennon off.

55:56 I mean, I'm. Assuming what happened, I don't have quotes to back this up, but I'm assuming what happened is the vennon started to be strong enough to attack peromial again after 200 years right? And peromial said hey Navarre we need help. And Navarre said no fuck you, our barters are closed, you're on your own for this.

56:13 And then? And then Peromial was forced to raid Porter outposts to steal the alloy and Navarre took that as an act of war. So now poor Peromial is dealing with the Venon on one side and Navarre on the other. That is what I assuming happened. Are you then also assuming? That, like wiping Venon from history, was Davar's way of basically squashing any future rebellions. Like I assumed it was the.

56:35 Way that they're justifying going to like going to war with peromial right They don't want their people to know that the venon exist right because I think if the people of Navarre knew the venet exists and people of peromial needed help Navarre would say we need to we need to help them and leadership didn't want that helping them like we're.

56:53 Actually going to take Venon out of all of our historical texts so that nobody feels the need to sympathize with. No, yeah, that's how antagonizing because in. Navarre's mind peromial is between them and the Vennett, right? In Navarre's mind, the Vennon are not a problem. Like there's a whole country between them, yeah. Yeah, cool.

57:13 Good recap. Good recap with some theory. All right. Do we want to talk about the ward stones? I'm down to start talking about. The ward stones, Yeah. All right, so I think we've. Alluded to this in our other episodes. I'm not sure we've specifically talked about it. So there are two ward stones which we know about, right?

57:30 The first one is at Baz Gaiath. The second one is at Arisha. The first ward stone, as we know, does not allow any magic that is not channeled from Dragons to be performed. Except not really, it turns out. But you can still channel from the ground, seemingly like Jack turns venom behind the words.

57:46 Satan's able to channel. Is Satan able to channel behind the words? Whatever theophony is able to like, disappear behind the words. I'm not sure how much the words really help against the venom, but the Griffins can't channel behind the words. Warwick seems to be the one who was the instigator of this decision. Because we have a quote from Lira. Let me let me find it.

58:06 We have an epigraph from Lira that says I am alone in thinking the knowledge of the words, the protections they provide should not solely benefit Navarre and it has cost me anything. That's her first quote from her journal. Her second quote from her journal is if I'm to be court martialed for helping Braxton defend his people, that I shall welcome the trial. All who channel from the dragon and Griffin alike should flourish under the words.

58:28 And now Risha will be that haven should one of the others ever returned. Obviously. So in my mind, what happened is work says I don't want Griffins to be able to channel in our ward stone era says I don't think that's right. I'm going to go create another word stone. It's going to allow Griffin's to channel and I'm going to bring it to Orisha in case should one of the others ever return being the ear.

58:49 It's right so that we can we can fire we can fire the that word stone and we can have kind of, you know, peace, prosperity, unity for all in Orisha. It also seems like Warrick and Lyra were in love and then they weren't because we have the quote from were external. Nothing kills powerful and shakable love faster than I opposing ideologies.

59:11 I think where Rebecca is leading us is that work and Lyra we're in love. And then he wanted to not allow any dragon and not allow Griffins to channel, and she did. So the question I have is why does work feel this way? Why is work making this making this kind of awful decision, right? He just went to war with these people, he allied with them, and now he's saying fuck you guys, you're on your own.

59:34 Basically, yeah. Yeah, about this. That I think points to why he might have made this decision. So the combined hatching grounds of Beth Gaiath. Beth Gaiath is our generations greatest asset and our greatest liability. The Journal of work of Lucerus translated by cadets Violet Sorengal and Dana HS.

59:53 So it gets back to this hatching ground theory that we talked about a lot in Dragons in my mind. But basically it's not necessarily Warwick I think that's pushing for this. I think it's, I think it's the Dragons. And I think it might, I also had this kind of off the cuff theory that it might be the green dragon specifically, and that Lyra might have had a black dragon and that's why she went to Arisha.

1:00:15 Like Lyra might have been Thoreau's rider is my thinking. And Warrick was bonded to a green dragon. And I think the Dragons, the Dragons for whatever reason, kind of turned on the Griffins we've talked about. Maybe it's because they're all channeling from the same source and that source might be finite. I still, I still stand by that theory. I don't, I think there's any reason to not have that theory, but basically Warrick said OK or he was being controlled by his Dragons.

1:00:40 I don't know. That would be a fun twist. But basically Warrick said OK, because we've combined the Hatch and grounds, we are too vulnerable now. Like this is a liability, right? That's what he said. We are too vulnerable to attack. All of the Dragons could be wiped out in one fell swoop. We can't let the Griffins or the obviously or the benefit, we can't let the Griffins anywhere near these hatch and grounds. And so these wards can't allow Griffins in. I'm processing.

1:01:03 I mean, I, I don't have a great reason for why work would make that decision, except for the potentially obvious one, which is just within Navarre in leadership. To this day, there's opposing ideologies on whether to protect their own or aid others. And it seems like that also exists at the dragon level. And so is it driven by the Dragons or is it driven by the humans?

1:01:24 I don't know. I don't have a great answer. Yeah, I don't think. I do think it is interesting that Lira, well, I don't know this for sure, but like we are also given a hint that Lira might have been leadership at Bazgayeth, Yeah as well. Yeah, in one of the she was no to the deputy, so. Just for for listeners, there's an epigraph in Chapter 11 of Onyx Storm and it notes that Lyra is the deputy commanding general of this guy at Ward War Camp writing to Narali, who's the commanding general of Cliff Spain. And so she is basically the protector of the Bizgayeth Wardstone throughout all of that. And she has good access, I guess, to other intelligence from leadership and the Wardstone itself. That's a great point.

1:02:07 The full quote is in the hope and excitement this new development of the bonds between Dragons, Griffins and their humans bring. I wonder who has stopped to contemplate the nature of magic's balance. Do we not risk the equal rise of the very powers we seek to yield? And that's from nurali to lira.

1:02:22 The reason that I think that's the same lira is because they mention new development of bonds between Dragons and humans. Between. Oh yeah, it's definitely the. Same Lira, I think I actually did have that quote, but. I. Didn't write who it was to. That's so interesting. OK. All right. So we know that Lira.

1:02:37 Is like friends with leadership on the flyer side. And so does that drive her sympathies? Does she have some connection to them? She's from Moraine, so she. I don't think she's from there, but she definitely has sympathies with them to the point where it makes sense that she would try to protect them with Arisha. Yeah.

1:02:55 All right, Let me. Just look through my notes here. Sorry, All right, so the other note I have is the differences in their journals, right? So, and we've we've mentioned this before that the Vennon cover up is not the first cover up that exists in Navarre in history, right? And I think it kind of starts with this, right?

1:03:15 So Lyra's journal for the instructions on how to fire the Warren Stone say the breath of life of the seven combined and set the stone ablaze in an iron flame, right? So she says 7. Warwick's journal says the breath of life of the six and the one combine and set the stone ablaze in an iron flame, right?

1:03:32 So this is kind of the the trickery of Warwick, right? And it's kind of confusing because Violet misinterprets and mistranslates a couple times, so it's kind of hard to miss. But Justinia catches that Warwick said 6:00 and 1:00, but Lira says seven. Yeah. And then we know that Baz Gaiath was built right after the war and that there are only 6 dragon breeds in the Rotunda, right?

1:03:56 That was kind of the first thing that when I went back and reread, I was like, why are there only 6 dragon breeds? Clearly Warwick and everyone knew there were seven dragon breeds. And I think it starts here, right? It's so that no one knows about the Irid so that they can never fire another Ward star, right?

1:04:11 Yeah, but can I ask a dumb? Question like I struggle to see where Warwick is like outright lying, or at least like he seems to give enough of a hint that someone would look into this. Like the one, the one unbonded, right? Like the six and the one. He's not saying the breath of the six combined. Like, oh, haha, you're going to make a broken ward stone. Like just like they do at the beginning. He's actually still telling us that there's another one and we just like, for whatever reason, don't think about the one. No, I totally agree with you.

1:04:41 I I. Had that in my notes. I said I said work, erase them from history. That's why there's only 6 drags in the rotundo. But he did mention the 7th kind of. So is there something else going on here? Yeah, I agree. It's it's not not it's not like obvious to me. I mean, clearly there's a conspiracy, right, because there's no 7th dragon in the Rotunda at Basgayeth or they're just really fucking pissed at the ear. It's but there's no record of the ear. It's right.

1:05:04 Like it's not just that there's no record of the Bennett. There's no record of the ear. It's so but but yeah, but work did say the six and the one. So does he say does he think of ear it as not a dragon? Like in his mind, our ear, it's not Dragons. Is that why he separates them? Or is it just that they don't have writers or like, what is it here? Yeah, I'm not.

1:05:22 I'm not. I just think. I mean, we have enough context clues, obviously through Lilith and all the upper grass to know that work did not want the word stones to be available magic to anybody else. Like, I'm not doubting that. I'm just like a little bit like, did he really lie in his journal? Like he he definitely tells us that the six are not it.

1:05:41 Yeah, that's not all. All right, sorry. We're doing a. War smear campaign that is maybe undeserved. I apologize. No, I mean like work. Seems to suck like I'm team Lira for sure. Yeah. But I think it's. A little unfair. All right, I have a couple. More things. Do we want to talk about the Battle of Gianfar?

1:05:59 Yeah, I've very much. On it. So you carry that. All right, so. We are told the battle of Gianfar is a battle that is pivotal in the unification of Navarre took place along the southern border of Tyrandor, possibly in Orisha. According to the wiki, it says Orisha, but that has definitely not been confirmed in the book. So this battle took place in our in our. So the quote we have about the battle of Gianfar, why it's important is the stronghold was not only set for a siege the second year says from high above us, but was equipped with the first crossbow, which proved A lethal against dragon cut. All right, when he says that in fourth wing, we don't really understand what was going on

1:06:36 with the Great War. We don't understand like what who they were fighting in the unification, right? It's just labeled as the army of the barons. But now we know that this is the venom, right? So like the venom had crossbolts, the venom had strongholds. The venom made it all the way to Arisha, right? Like I think that kind of we've been thinking of venom as like, oh, they just kind of wield magic and all that blah, blah, blah.

1:06:59 Like no, they have fucking armies. They are like, I mean, General Daramore, right? It's not just like mages that we're fighting against, like we are, we are dealing with like people who build crossbows, people who build strongholds, et cetera, which I think is I think we're going to see more crossbows.

1:07:16 I think we should be prepared for that. What power the. Crossbolt, for the love of God. The other thing that I actually, I should have said this as an omission earlier. I think when the Flyers came to Orisha, Brennan's condition was they each have to bring their own crossbolt. So like how big are crossbolts?

1:07:32 I thought they were like big cannon ass things that sat on the edge of the aisle. I thought they had to bring Cross. Like the thing that you can like, please hold. Yeah, here we. Go so this this is the part of of Iron Flame in which Takaris and Brennan are brokering the deal where he can get the Luminary if he takes the Flyers into Arisha.

1:07:55 This is my offer, take it or leave it. Takaris demands and Violet in her head says there's no way and Brennan says done as long as each flyer we take brings a crossbolt with them. I literally thought they were the size of cannons based on how to describes in the aisles. I do too. Maybe they're overthinking?

1:08:09 The crossbolt thing I don't know but but how does that? How does? Something you can carry? Kill a dragon without magic? I'm not over that anyways. Maybe there's runes on them, Yes. So we also know is. One of the final battles where Griffins and Dragons worth alongside each other. So I mean and that makes sense with the timeline we have right?

1:08:26 Like the Dragons and the Griffins work together for the unification and then stopped working together soon after that, but did not actually declare war for another 200 years. All right, OK, one other interesting quote that I had, which makes sense be given everything we know about Asher is Lilith says to Violet during Iron Flame. Your father told me once that Warwick never wanted anyone else to hold the power of the wards.

1:08:48 He wanted Navarre to eternally hold the upper hand. And we already know this because Asher Violet knows about the journals because Asher was reaching, was researching about them. But Asher is researching Irids, researching work, and Lyra, like Asher knows exactly what's going on. Yeah, and Asher.

1:09:05 Was the one to tell Lilith about works motivations, which means Asher probably read Works journal at some point. Yeah, I'm kind of back to. Thinking that Asher knew about the event and way before Lilith did, I think that makes sense. I mean, at how I just think it's surprising that Asher has had the access to the things that he's had access to, like the aisles aside, right? We've talked at length for our listeners about like how Asher was granted access to the aisles when he was ascribed from Navarre and we've not had connections with them in centuries except for Holden.

1:09:35 Shady shit. OK, But we also now we're learning that Asher was telling Lilith about things that are under lock and key in the royal archives. Like how did he get access to that? He didn't seem to supersede Markham and rank right, Right. That's. A great point. How did Asher know that Warwick didn't want anyone else to hold the power of the wards if the only way to know that is through his journal is through his journal and.

1:09:59 There's, I mean, there's a lot of Norel, I think Norel. Is a good Yeah theory, right? Yeah. How much does Deverelli really know? How much does Narelle really know? Yeah. And how? Deep is the relationship between like, why do Narelle and Asher know each other? Like, yeah, at some point we should talk about that I don't think it's gonna be like, a logical part of any episode. But when Violet says that Asher died, her face crumples. Like she clearly feels some level of personal loss that is inconsistent with just.

1:10:27 I left my text with this merchant on Temporelli. And why doesn't Violet? Ask that question, why doesn't Violet say how did you know my father anyway? Anyways, alright, so the next thing I have. What ended the war? Thoughts. Do you know what ended the war? I don't. I don't have. Great working theories on what ended the war, right Asher has alluded to.

1:10:50 And we should pay attention to what Asher says because Asher seems to know a lot of things that we would not otherwise expect him to know. That there is a weapon or a way to take them down. The only thing I can think of is the earrings. See, I think it's Violet. I just think it's but what ended the war.

1:11:08 Not, I know Violet, yes, but like what ended the war? Violet wasn't there. Or was she? Yeah, the power of the sky seems to be the answer. Which the only terrible. Price. What is the price? I have left speculation. On unification, but I don't all I have is once again, why would tear and or agree? I don't have anything additional there. I mean, my big my big question still that I don't think we have necessarily come to a conclusion at the end of this episode is who who actually bonded Dragons first? Who actually was the first writer? Was it the first six?

1:11:45 Or was it one of these three brothers and she was objectively not the first? 6 like we know that the first No, I know, but I'm. Saying they were just the first to survive. Like you mean versus the origin story? Yeah, Yeah, exactly. Yeah. If it was the first six. How did the Dragons know about ruins before humans used magic like that? I just can't wrap my head around that one. Right.

1:12:07 Yeah. I it's my pre khaki OK all right so it's. Just time. It's just time to get into the. I have. I have two, I have two. Weird. Things that we haven't hit yet. So the first six, we know they were not the first riders, they were just the first to survive. I want to talk about the languages that their journals were in. OK, so Warwick's journal is written in old Lucerish, which both Violet and Dan are trained to translate. And so this is also why I think that Asher has read that text. Like not it's not like someone told him about it. Like he knew that Warwick's journal was written in old Lucerish.

1:12:42 He also told Lilith that Warwick didn't want Asher. Asher read Warwick's journal, how he got into the royal archives to do it I don't know. He has read it. Violet expects Brennan to be able to translate it but he can't and neither can Aric, which I think is interesting. So like Asher did not teach Brennan old looser ish Interesting. And Aric was not taught old looser ish. And he explains this later as OK. Like I was taught to speak to the living. Like old looser ish is no longer a spoken language, but it's in the royal archives so wouldn't you expect a Prince to be taught to read texts in the royal archives? Lyra's journal is written in Moranian and Violet doesn't know that language, only Justinia

1:13:26 does. So Lyra is from Marine. We already talked about what we think about maybe the three brothers, Like how did the how did Peromial's king rise to king? How did Navarre rise to king? Is it possible that the six were rulers from all the different provinces and that's how they decided to unify Navarre?

1:13:45 I think there's like a little bit of fragility to this one because the hatchet grounds are not only in Navarre, like I think there's one outside of it. The Blues are from Peromial. Yeah, but. If we have lira from marine work from Lucerus, Lucerus, I definitely think it's. Lucerus but Lucerus but is. It Lucerus.

1:14:05 I think it's Lucerus, but whatever. They're from two of the. Provinces. They're from two different places. Like are the other six just from the other provinces? Yeah, I think so. I. Think so. I had the same thought like oh, were these were these the kings and Queens of? I mean, I don't necessarily think they were the kings and Queens because if the ruler it seems.

1:14:26 Unlikely that. Lira is out here like. Huffing it in a war. Camp if she's a ruler, but maybe. But I definitely think it's one rider from each province. Yeah, yeah, that's fair. Yeah, true, because she is deputy commanding general. So why would she be that if she was, if she was the queen, she was. Yeah.

1:14:44 Marine of Marine, Yeah. Yeah. Do you think there's any significance to. So I guess I actually want to shout out another podcast here, Faithfully Fantasy, who we love. We love you guys. Hi, Faithfully Fantasy. Made a. Clip about Eric's like language speaking abilities and theorizing that he couldn't he couldn't translate this journal when he was a first year sorry in in iron flame.

1:15:12 Then in Onyx storm he suddenly flew in every language and he cites his training faithfully. Fantasy is like, is this a segment? They basically have the theory like is this a second segment that he's able to just suddenly speak every language. OK. Arik's brother was. He never bonded to a dragon.

1:15:29 He died at threshing, but that. Doesn't mean that he didn't bond before he was killed kebbe kebbe because he couldn't translate this journal and then the next book he speaks every language known to man and just like is hiding it and we find out while he's out there actively manifesting segments through Molfic. I do think that.

1:15:46 Arik is a candidate for a second segment because we know. Yeah. I mean, yeah, he probably didn't bond a dragon, but it's Rebecca, so he probably did. Yeah. So shout out. Faithfully fantasy for that one. I had not thought of that one, but when I read that Eric couldn't help Violet translate this journal, I was like maybe there is something there.

1:16:04 OK, but I do also think it makes. Sense like you would raise a Prince to be a diplomat. Why would they need to know? Like I doubt Princess languages. Yeah, people aren't. I mean, some people are learning Latin, you know Latin, but like most people aren't after you're learning Latin. Yeah, yeah.

1:16:21 OK. And then the only other theory that I had was about the war with peromial and like why it started my assumption right after a couple 100 years. So one like we didn't kill all the venom because they came back after a couple 100 years. That's not really that long. My assumption is the venom began rising in peromial and Navarre denied them aid in the barons I think.

1:16:45 Well, they began. Yeah, they rose in the barons and then they started encroaching upon Peromial and Navarre said, we're not giving you aid and we're also not giving you any more teladium than we already have because we needed to enforce our wards. That's also why I think Tierrendor is like such a ripe area for rebellion and unrest because one, they're on the border and two, they are the primary source of teladium. And so like I'm sure that citizens of Tierndor have family in Peromial and family in Navarre and that makes them like very easily sympathetic to either 'cause so I assumed that Peromial then basically attacked Arisha and that is what spawned the war between Navarre and Peromial. Could be I definitely.

1:17:26 Thought I definitely thought it's more they're just after the alloy, but yeah I mean then they would attack Arisha. Yeah, because of the source of Palladium. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, and we didn't really talk about this, but I think it's an interesting idea, that the Great War at the end of the day is really a resource war, right? It's a war for magic essentially, right? Because the Venin want the magic that's in the ground. The Griffins and the riders don't want them to have the magic that's in the ground.

1:17:55 So it's kind of like sold as a war of ideology. Oh, the Benin are bad and the Dragons and the Griffins are good. But I mean, really it's that there's a finite amount of power and they all want it. So I think it's an interesting idea. Cool. Why can? Humans deprive the land of magic so much more quickly than the Dragons. Dragons and Griffins.

1:18:13 Yeah. OK. Should we do precog? OK. Do you want to go? 1st, I don't know. Not really. But I can go first. OK, I could go first. Mine's not that crazy. So work in Lyra's journals are written in old Lusairish and Moranian. We know from Violet being a nerd that these are logosyllabic languages, which means they use a combination of logograms, which represent words, symbols that represent words and syllabograms, which represents so basically these languages are kind of like Chinese or Japanese like they're they're symbols, right?

1:18:45 And the symbols can represent words or they can represent syllables. We also that there isn't there was an ancient king who lived 1000 years before Navarre existed. And we learned this when Justinia can't translate a specific word in old Lucerus that Violet helps her with and she spells out the name of this king and says this was an ancient king that lived 1000 years before Navarre existed. So we know that there were kingdoms obviously before the unification, there was an ancient king. Here's that ancient word again.

1:19:15 And we know that that person was alive 1000 years before for the unification, so our history like timetable has just been pushed back massively. So then I thought about these symbols. What if runes are actually an ancient language? Either of an ancient world or of the gods, or just like a former type of writing.

1:19:38 This would also explain how the Dragons knew that these runes existed, that yes, perhaps of the gods or who the gods once embodied themselves as. Runes could be a old language that mean things that's how they do what they do and through this magic that's been tempered into them, they are creating whatever it is that they say. I think learn their language, yes. And I, I.

1:20:00 Really like that because I went back and I was looking at the descriptions of the Lord stones, right? And the descriptions are here. I have this exact. I think I have the exact quote. And what are the seven? Runes on the wardstones, like what are they? Well, so here's the. Thing the Baz Gayath word stone is described as having rings and runes carved into it that had interrupted by a diamond pattern.

1:20:24 And then the Arishan wards are described as etched in the very center, at least 6 feet across, as a series of circles, each fitting within the next and boasting a rune carved along its path. So the circles are not the. I always thought the circles were the runes. They're not. That's where the fire was supposed to be breathing into. I thought it was literally like a map. Like here where you bring the fire? Yeah, that's dead serious What I thought. Oh, that's cute.

1:20:51 I don't. Know. Yeah, maybe. And that's from Lyra's journal. Right there's seven circles, there's seven runes yes and I made that note I. Was like, oh, the circles aren't the runes. I always thought the circles are the runes. All right, this I like this. I like it means the Dragons can read. That's fine. All right, so.

1:21:07 Like, is this an ancient language that Dragons recognize that humans no longer recognize? Isn't there a quote? Isn't there a? Quote at one point about Violet assuming that the Dragons are speaking in like their own language. I don't know. I don't. Remember it? Maybe I'm hallucinating? If any of them, if anyone remembers this, back me up. But basically I do think at some point there's a conversation that Taryn and Segal have and Violet is like, oh they must be speaking in their own language, maybe I'm hallucinating. Could the ruins be the Dragon's language? I don't know, there's someone's language. There's so now like I've had this idea since lunch and I'm not letting it go now I.

1:21:44 Thought this for three, yeah. So whether? They're the Dragon's language or, or an older language. I don't think we would have been told about logosyllabic languages. Yeah, I'm. Sorry if I'm pronouncing that. Incorrectly, I was not an English major and I apologize. That's a great quote. Great. Find your pre card theories are so good. Love it.

1:22:06 All right. So mine, I will say off the bat is not, it's definitely history related. It's not necessarily any of the history we've talked about related, but it comes up in the Wardstone Chamber. So that's why I've brought it up in and and this also set my mind reeling the first time I read it in the ward stone chamber at Basgayeth. During the battle at Basgayeth, Violet tells Andarna to like get in here into the ward stone chamber. And Andarna says I'm not fond of pits. And this has set my mind completely. Really.

1:22:39 I'm like, why would Andarna not be fond of pits? What is the history? What is the contacts that led to this scenario? Right. We also know that ear is absolutely abhor violence. They hate it. They want nothing to do with violence. My theory is that at one point the ears were enslaved and forced to fight and kill each other, perhaps on an aisle, perhaps a Navarre gladiator style. Basically right.

1:23:05 Like This is why the ears are so unwilling to get involved now is because they have at one point been captured and been forced to fight each other, and that's why they hate violence. That's why they won't get involved with the venom. Maybe the venom were the ones to do it. Maybe the Venoms were the ones to enslave them.

1:23:24 And maybe This is why they won't have writers, right? Because maybe at one point they did have writers and this is what the writers did to them. Like bonding with humans is what led to this pit situation. And is that why they like left and Darna behind, right? Because they're like, OK, the venoms were bad. This is why I think it might be the venoms, right? Because they were, they're willing to leave and Darna behind to give the humans a chance. It's like, OK, the venoms are bad, but humans are different. Why don't we give humans a chance? See if they become nonviolent and then we'll come back and like kind of live with them again in a peaceful society. But if they're just as power

1:23:59 hungry and as violent as the venom, then we won't do it. So that's my theory. Hit fighting. Hit fighting eras. I mean this. I will admit, I feel, I do feel like this one is kind of a quantum leap. But I, I think it's interesting, right? Because like, it could be the venom that had enslaved them. It also could explain like I had always interpreted Irrids leaving the other dens as like we are holier than thou, like we don't believe in violence.

1:24:24 But it would make sense like I'd never thought of it as or irrids a more meek breed of dragon that the other Dragons actually like employed and slaves like looked down upon. That's an interesting. Idea yeah like where the other Dragons involved in the potential enslavement yeah yeah and that's why they. Were like peace out, Yeah.

1:24:47 Right. I mean, yeah. Like, we'll give you this one thing, and then, like, we're washing our hands of you guys, Right. And that's what Terence says. If they left, it's because they don't want to be found. Yeah. I'm for doing OK. Gladiator. Gladiator. OK. What are you reading? Crescent City. I know. Tell us about your recent.

1:25:07 The last time we have. Recorded Do we need to spoiler warning? This. I don't think so. OK, spoiler warning for season. 2 of this podcast I have read all of Acatar, all of it, and I am on book 2 of Crescent City. That's pretty much all I'm reading right now, pretty much taking up all my time, and that's all-encompassing. Honestly, and I'm going to be honest. With you I.

1:25:30 I don't know what's going to happen. I don't spoil it to me, but I can feel her making Hunt into Tamlin, and I am really not here for it. I really like him. I think he's more complex than like your average bear. And if they don't end up together, I'm going to be kind of sad. I mean, the series isn't completed.

1:25:49 The series isn't completed. Don't tell me anything. Don't tell me anything. Yeah, I just can feel like they're, you know, he's being and I think we'll get into this, right. But like, I think he's totally justified and his like, hey, I already fought A rebellion and it was terrible. And like spoiler warning for Crescent. Oh, sorry.

1:26:07 Yes, sorry. I'll go back. I understand his hesitance to jump head first into the situation that's being presented to him. Yeah. But I'm scared that that's. Going to become like a fundamental roadblock that these two like can't get past yeah I mean, I've. Said it once and I'll say it again. Like I think the reason that I like Hunt so much as a character is it's refreshing to read about a male main character who's not absolutely flawless. I totally agree.

1:26:34 I'm enjoying that. Part of his character development I mean. I think ACOTAR. Has a lot of complexity to it and I think they're actually incredibly deep moving, touching books, but I think these characters are presented with much thornier, interesting choices to make I mean there's. A reason my favorite actor character is Nesta, Yeah. So excited about that.

1:26:58 Also, I saw sinners last night. Have you seen sinners? No, I haven't. Should I? Yes. Okay, it was wonderful. And it's almost like we left the theater and I was literally like, Derek, this is, this was a romanticy. Like it's almost a romanticy. It's not. There's a lot of other stuff going on in there, but there's moments where I'm like, yeah, I see what you're doing here.

1:27:21 I've seen. This watch him. Yeah, I've not even heard of it. Oh my God, really? Yeah, it's amazing. It's the new. It's from Ryan Coogler and Michael B Jordan, and it's like a Southern gothic car. Hailee Steinfeld. Yes, Hailee Steinfeld is in it. It's so good. The music. It's a movie. I mean, music is a major theme in it, but the music is amazing.

1:27:42 It's really good. It's really fun. Wait, did you see it? In theaters? Yeah, I saw it in theaters. I went to a movie. Theater I did. I haven't done that for exactly 1 movie in the last five years. It was fun, I would recommend. Doing it well, I'm not. Gone the entire week, all week on. Give it a try, All right?

1:28:01 OK. Anything else? Social media? I finished Crescent. City 3. Nice. That was my what I've read and I really can't say any more about it. OK, we'll dive into it. At some point, OK, I am looking forward to what I assume will be the next six months to a year of our lives. Just talking about Sarah J Mass and the choices that she made.

1:28:22 You can talk. About it for six months, a year, honestly. Like will we? Lose. People probably after the first few months, but yes. And I also may lose my sanity. OK, well that is Part 1 of history. So just a sneak peek into Part 2. We're going to cover the second Krovlin Uprising and the Tearish Rebellion, so stay tuned for that and the Venom cover.

1:28:47 Up and the venom. Cover up, yeah. And basically other like undocumented history. I think we'll cover like random other stuff because this was kind of the the big chunky ones. So as per usual, please like, comment, subscribe. It helps us out a lot as a very small starter podcast trying to figure out what we're going to be when we grow up. And we love to hear from you.

1:29:09 We like our new favorite thing. My new favorite thing is mailbag episodes. I'm obsessed with them. So we continue commenting, reaching out to us over e-mail. Now we are on Instagram, Tiktok and YouTube as Dragons in the details pod is our handle. And then if you want to e-mail us Dragons in the details pod@gmail.com.

1:29:25 And every time we get a note from any of you guys, I like seriously like light up inside. It's so fun. So we love it. I agree. We love it. Love. Talking to you. Thanks for everyone who's commenting and D Ming and it's great. We love it. We know we're crazy. And that's OK, we know we spend way.

1:29:42 Too much time thinking about these things, but we like to do it. We love it. Thanks for listening and for listening, Love you. Bye. Love you. Bye.