The Ending of Onyx Storm (The Mailbag) - Imogen's POV Chapter, The Missing Eggs, How will Violet find Xaden, and more!

0:17 Have a fun little, a fun little ditty. Great. So we have like new friends. We have some new friends that we've made here, and we met them through like the run club that we do. And I hung out with them last weekend and I hung out with them this weekend. And last weekend I found out that they're 24, they're a couple, and they're both 24 years old. And I'm like, Oh my God, what are you talking about? How can you?

0:40 Like we were talking about, I think we were talking about 911. And he was like, Oh yeah, I was born six months before 9:11. I was like, I don't understand what you're saying right now. And then this weekend. They were born in this millennia. This millennia, this millennia, I'm sorry to all of our younger listeners, but we are old.

0:57 If he ever hears me talk about this is going to be so bad at me. But he's a great guy. I really like him and his girlfriend. They're great. But we were hanging out this weekend and he goes, Oh my God. Do you guys remember when Fruit by the foot had the tongue tattoos on them and you could like put a tongue? You don't remember this?

1:14 No, yeah, of course I remember right. You remember it, right? And I was like, I do remember that, but how do you remember you? I don't you were zero years old. Wouldn't have been alive during this. But. Apparently he was. Apparently the early 2000s and the 90s are like they just blend into one thing for me.

1:34 And I was like a conscious human being with real memories when Fruit by the Foot had the tongue tattoos. So maybe he just wasn't, I don't know. I feel like there were moments in time, like Fruit by the Foot, like you remember Gogurt. What, of course, what happened to that? And remember when Dunkaroos made a comeback in college? Oh yeah, yeah, those were good.

1:55 Really. All of the Dippables were definitely up my alley Do. You remember it wasn't Gogurt, but there was like some brand of yogurt where, like, it came in a little pack and there was like sprinkle. They might have been called sprinklings. There were like sprinkles inside sprinklings. Yeah, those were my jam. I fucking love those.

2:12 And then they started making like brand name varieties, right? They had like Oreos. Well, that was Yo Crunch, which was like a slightly more adult version of Sprinklings, but they literally made them with M&M, so like. I think I liked the sprinklings better than sprinklings. Was good all the same.

2:28 I had a dessert, I feel like at a fancy restaurant somewhat recently, and I was like, this tastes Actually, it was a drink. It was a drink at an Indian restaurant. And I was like, this tastes like sprinklings. And I mean that in the best way possible. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Which, like, by the way, Lassie is just an adult restaurant.

2:49 Acceptable drinkable yogurt. And I love them. I love them. It's like the animals, but mango. It's the animals. OK, it turns out we. Figured out all the food in the 90s and we're just riffing on it now. We're just keeping on going. What a time to be alive. What? A time to be developing your palate in the early 90s. No wonder we're all fucked up now with how we eat. But anyway.

3:12 We actually just named exclusively Mega Process fine. All right, we're bad. Anyways, food in the 90s really lit technology in 2025 subpar. For our listeners, we have just been kicked out of our recording software about five times. So we're going to keep our fingers crossed here and pray that this works this time, because it doesn't.

3:38 I don't know what we're going to do. Yeah. I mean, at this point it's uploading like you guys just might hear 7 clips stitched together because we keep getting kicked out of our fucking session. Well, we apologize. It's OK. Hi guys. Hi, I'm Ronnie, I'm Abby, and this is Dragons in the Details, where we pick apart our favorite fantasy series over the course of a largely undetermined number of episodes.

4:03 The season is focused on the Empyrean series by Rebecca Yaros. We are winding down this season at this point, but we've still somehow, after 19 episodes, have things to talk about, so we're back. Disclaimer These episodes contain spoilers through. Like how you said, so we're back. Like we didn't go anywhere. Well, it's just like we're back here another weekend. Yeah, another weekend.

4:28 About this book, which when you do the math on the way that we record and the weekends, if we're on episode 19, then we've been recording this for 9 weekends two weeks apart, right? I mean, I so much to the day, almost to the day. This book came out six months ago, right? Like it was January 20 something.

4:49 Yeah. And we're in June. So like, yeah, we're still here. We're still here, still here, still. Rebecca, what have you done to us? What's? Still having fun? I think we're still having fun. I am. We're still having fun. I've got an increased level of introspection going these days for sure. Disclaimer, these episodes contain spoilers up through Onyx Storm.

5:11 If you have not finished Onyx Storm, save this comeback later. And due to the contents of that series and who we are as people, this podcast is rated R Should only be listened to by mature audiences. Do not listen to this with your children. Thank you. Each week we typically dive into a specific topic in depth, but this week we're doing a response episode, which we've been calling mailbags in response to all of your comments, questions, reactions, specifically to our recent episodes covering the ending of Onyx Storm. So we are affectionately calling this one the epilogue. Yeah, and I would.

5:45 Just end it. In that vein, this is kind of a Mailbag Plus episode, right? So some of it is Mailbag, but some of it is stuff that like we didn't include in our original questions about the ending that are worth talking about too. So we have one or two things like that that I think will be interesting. Yeah, and to be fair, I think our, at least on TikTok and YouTube, a lot of our commenters called those out. So like they are both omissions on our part, like things that we probably should have mentioned and responses to your comments in a lot of cases.

6:15 So that's why we love you. We really just to God on Instagram, apart from the brother, like it was, it was cricket. Like no one said anything. I was like, really guys? Like really? That was not so on TikTok. Yeah, OK. It's OK. I look forward to hearing about it. Yeah. We always come with receipts. We have quotes to back up any theories that we have, so you can follow along if you're skeptical. However, in these episodes, if you did not bring receipts, we are not responsible for that, but we found them as best we could.

6:45 At least I went to find them as best I could, but we typically bring receipts so that you can follow along. All right, Abby, would you like to give our announcements for this week? Yes. So I think same announcements as every week. Season 2, which we are going to start at some point, at some point this summer, we're going to do it.

7:03 Season 2 is going to be on ACOTAR. We are. I'm pretty deep into my ACOTAR reread at this point. I'm almost done with Mist and Fury, which obviously I love, but we are going to do our best. We are going, I think the way we're going to structure it, we've talked about this, is we are going to keep it mostly just ACOTAR focus, but then we might have a section at the end that is for the larger mass verse. So if you have only read ACOTAR, if you haven't read Crescent City or Throne of Glass should be OK. You should still be able to enjoy 2/3 to 3/4 of our episodes without getting spoiled.

7:36 We're going to try really hard to stick to that and we will be very, very clear and upfront about spoilers. Unfortunately, I think as we're both rereading this, we're like, Oh my God, I it's actually funny. The first time I read a guitar, it was the first one in the mass verse, right? So I didn't think anything of it. And I'm going back and rereading it. I'm like, I didn't understand the story at all. I have a completely different impression of what this story is now.

7:57 So I encourage everyone to read the whole mass verse. It's very enjoyable. Maybe don't do it all in one shot the way I did, but should read it all. It's very good. Other than that, we are on Discord when Dragons in the Details pod is the name of our server. We post links to that in our show nights and there's a link in our bio for all of our social media. It's super fun.

8:16 We've been having really good conversations there. People are coming with like really awesome, in depth, well research theories. We really love it. I highly encourage you to join it if you want to keep talking about these books or if you want to start talking about ACOTAR because we kind of have some ACOTAR discussions going on going on over there as well. And maybe just APSA for anybody joining the Discord who hasn't read ACOTAR or is still reading ACOTAR. You can mute notifications on certain channels in Discord. So if you don't want to get notifications from like the ACOTAR spoilers channel or anything like that, you can just mute it and then you won't get phone notifications that have the messages that crop up

8:54 because I know that's something that people might still be working through. And yeah, you remember when I took, it was taking forever to get through my Accord of Thorns and Roses, like the first book reread. And then I just hit a point and I'm like, no, but I actually can't stop. And so I'm where you are, which is crazy. For that is crazy.

9:10 That is crazy. I'm I'm like, I'm like 5 chapters out from the end of a Mystic Fury. Whatever, we talk about it later. We can talk about it later, all right? Corrections, omissions, Social media shout. Outs. I mean this whole episode is correct. I know the whole is unfortunately a series of social media shout outs.

9:28 I think the only thing that I didn't call out because it's it's funny, it's not substantial, it's just funny is so last week we released an episode. Well, we released 2 episodes two weeks in a row that were fantasy drafts, the Iron Squad and then marked ones. And we posted one of the clips was about whose signet would be the worst worst to wield during sex.

9:48 And Maris reads whoever you are, you should become a comedian. Because she left a comment on that post. And I think it wasn't clear in the I tried to make it clear in the post, but it wasn't clear in the post that it was just iron Squad. And so like all of the marked ones were excluded. But she left a comment that said there's so many meaning Sigmets that are terrible to wield.

10:08 Honestly, all of them except maybe Bodi. Like lightning oops, fried ice, oops, frozen, memory erasing, oops you forgot, distance, distance oops I'm gone. Memory reading OMG you were thinking about someone else and that honestly killed me. Specifically the Oops, you forgot. Oops. You forgot but yes I agree with you and we do have an entire other clip that's coming that you have not seen yet but is now out Time Travel is Weird and Podcast Magic that does discuss those exact segments. Pretty hilarious.

10:40 We are. Yeah, we got a comment too. That's like, well, Garrick is the obvious answer. I'm like, yes he is, but this is only the Iron Squad. Yeah, but yeah. It's true man, Garrick and Imogen to be a family on the wall for whatever the hell happened at the end of that another person brought up we are. She can also petrify things like no matter what any of those segments except for maybe Garrick's air wielding like between the two of them.

11:04 Horrible, horrible. Yeah, anyway, it's. Going to be interesting. Should we dig in deep dive? Let's deep dive. All right, OK. So this mailbag is, as Abby mentioned, a little bit different, right? Because we have things that we want to rehash or bring up that we didn't previously bring up. But a lot of these were inspired by comments.

11:24 And so I think the first topic we wanted to just start with was response to who we had proposed as the brother. So the three big main options we talked through were Bodie, who has the strongest case, Garrick and Ark. So I segmented like the feedback that we got in terms of things we missed about Garrick and things we missed about Ark.

11:45 I don't think anybody is arguing with Bodie at this point. Like I got very little that is like it's not Bodie because obviously is another conversation for another day. But like some of the Garrick stuff obviously was against Bodie intrinsically and some of the arc stuff was too. So the first piece of feedback that I want to talk through, maybe you have it too, is actually in favor of Garrick and in question of Bodie. And that was within Imogen's chapter. Imogen saying she hasn't seen Zadan for 20 minutes. And Mitchell Jones pointed out that this might mean that that chapter is happening on a non linear timeline with the rest of the chapters.

12:24 And so if Imogen is saying, hey, I haven't seen Zayden shadows for 20 minutes. This is happening on a different timeline. And Bodie and Garrick are within her eyesight at this point, that really only leaves one contender for like who could have gotten him. So I went and dug into this. I think it's a it's a good call out. I think it warrants discussing the quotes that we hear from Imogen within her chapter right Are there are still too many Wyvern despite the inhuman amount that Soren Gil just dispatched?

12:50 And where the fuck is Ryerson? He'd better be helping in the northeastern tower because I haven't seen a trace of Shadow in the last 20 minutes. That's her saying I haven't seen Zaden. Zaden is supposed to be with her. And so I think at that point, we can interpret that as he's gone to the valley at that point.

13:05 Like we haven't seen Shadow in 20 minutes. So he's in the valley at the conclusion of this chapter. Obviously, we know the infamous line from Garrick. Like, I better find some way to do something. And then Imogen notes that the sky darkens further. She says Sorgill better take their leader all the way the fuck out or this will have all been for nothing.

13:20 So on the 20 minutes thing, I think that's a valid point. I think the sky darkens further. People try to connect us to the shadows. I don't really buy that, and I'm happy to talk through why. But if Imogen not having seen shadows for 20 minutes means that Zaden is in the valley and she has eyes on Bodie retching in the town square on his hands and knees and Garrick walking away, I think that does call into question, like, when all of this is happening with Zaden in the valley, the brother has turned and the brother is there as well. So could this mean that Garrick at that point said, I'm going to go walk over to Zaden Channels and then maybe Garrick is the brother and maybe that's a case

13:57 for Garrick over Bodie. The thing that I don't buy that people are actually using to point. Wait, Auric? Hold on, let's stop for a second because I just want to make sure I'm getting this because I also had this. This is what my quotes were about. But you're saying the argument for how this could still be Garrick is that Garrick and Image and walk out of the Armory and then Garrick distance wheels within that time to get to Zeta? Channels and distance wheels because he has nothing left. Channels and distance wields.

14:24 I see. So it becomes the brother right in front of Imogen basically injury, yes. And then distance wields to to the the Canyon. OK. And if if all of that is true and he doesn't do that, which like could also be right, then it's neither of them assuming all of this is true, like assuming we're on a non linear timeline.

14:42 Satan's in the valley. The brother is already supposed to exist. If Gehrig didn't wield at that moment, channel at that moment, then yeah, neither of them are the brother. Yeah, I think we should talk about whether or not we do. I think these these chapters are happening in parallel because I think I have the same notes that you do, right? So like, yeah.

14:58 So like Imogen says she hasn't seen Satan for 20 minutes. We know that this chapter is happening after Zayden leaves Violet to face off against Theophony. It's actually after, it's even after Theophany flees, right? So because we know that Bodie's back, right? Bodie's back in place. So Core has grabbed him and, like, taking him back to Dreyfus, right?

15:17 We know that because Bodie's flying into the Wyvern and he shouldn't be. And Violet has already dispatched those 37 Wyvern in one strike because we know because Imogen just said. The inhuman amount. Said the inhuman amount of Wyvern and we know that Violet sees Bodie at the end of her POV chapter flying up to fight the Wyvern even though Taran has given an.

15:40 Order to ground the riot. It's like we know that the Imogen chapter happens after the Violet chapter. The question is whether or not the Imogen chapter and the Zaiden chapter happen at the same time. At the same time, yeah, or the Imogen chapter and the next chapter, which is the Violet chapter, which is happening at the same time as right as. Right.

15:57 So the the Violet chapter and the Zaiden chapter where Zaiden channels clearly happen at the same time, right? Like those are clearly. But the the the argument I have against these happening at the same time, and I have made a list based on the argument that they are. But Imogen says the sky darkens, right, Which people have said, OK, that's Zed and channeling, right?

16:17 Violet refers to this to Zed and channeling as the kind of force that ends the world. That's an exact quote. That is not the sky darkens, right? Every time the sky darkens has been used in these novels, it's used to describe storms, and Imogen calls out that Theophany at that point is still alive and still fighting.

16:38 And so like I very much interpret the sky darkening to be a storm, not that's. How I interpret? It too, yeah. That's how I interpret it too. We know there's a tornado heading towards Dreyfus at this time. Theophany is very much still alive. I don't think if Imogen saw Zaden's wall of shadow she would say the sky darkens further.

16:54 I just don't think that's the language that would be used to describe it. Yeah, and I don't think that that means even, like, if the Sky's darkening is is just a storm, I don't think that that means that Zaden can't be in the valley at that point. So I'm not really like, I agree with where you're going, which is these chapters are not fully and wholly in parallel. But I could see things being staggered. Right.

17:15 Like Zaden's unaccounted for. Like, where is he? Sure. I don't know. Absolutely. Yeah. But I agree with you. I do not think that the sky darkening is the Onyx storm. Yeah, yeah. Cool. All right. But yeah, let's talk through it. If they are in parallel, what kind of options are we left with here?

17:29 Because it's not Bodie and it's not Garrick in that case. Or it is Garrick, it could not Bodie. I guess it could be Garrick. Yeah. Could maybe be Garrick but even Garrick is a hard sell right? Because then he would have had to have channelled and also like where is his dragon and how is his dragon unconscious at that time like right? Kind of makes it hard for both of them honestly if this is true.

17:50 He channelled, grabbed Chadra and ran straight to the valley walks. Yeah, but why would he do that? To do something, I guess maybe, yeah. I don't know. I think, I think the most logical argument for everything that's happened is that these do not happen in parallel, and that Zaden is somewhere else doing something else before he's in the valley, which I can make more sense of. But to me this whole argument points to Arc or someone we haven't thought about yet, which would be such a huge twist that I don't know.

18:22 So I actually went through and I made a list of every single man that is mentioned in this battle and whether or not they could be the brother if we're assuming these are in parallel. All right, so I have this list all the men who are mentioned during the battle. Zaidan out. We know he's not the brother Bodhi if he's in Imogen chapter he's out. Brennan based on the timeline Brennan is in. I don't think it's Brennan, but we'll get to an argument there. I had Garrick is out, but you made a good point. If he channeled and became a vet and then he could be in Riddick is still in Riddick has known that the sorry, I also added the criteria whether or not they've known that Zaidan is a venon. So Brennan and like both know

18:57 that Zadan is a venom. So OK, so Brennan is in, Riddick is in because they know that Zadan is a venom, but they have not known for six months. Theoretically, Sawyer out doesn't know that Zadan is a venom. Dane Out Zadan's shadow sweep over him. We know it's not. Dane has to tell Sawyer, but yeah, not for five months. OK, Not for five months.

19:16 Sawyer, Justinia and Ree. I couldn't remember if that scene actually happened or if that was a different scene about the rebellion about the like a tearish rebellion happening again. She keeps any secrets from her friends. OK, so Sawyer, but he's still out. It has been nowhere near 5 months. Felix and Kaori are also mentioned. They're both out.

19:35 They don't know Zeidan's event. And then Ark is still in. So I had Brennan, Riddick and Ark, but you're saying there's no way that Brennan and Riddick knew for five months? Let's talk. I don't know about Brennan. Brennan is a total wild card, right? And I have some stuff to talk about about Brennan and what we do in note and don't know too. Hey went through and made a Canon timeline of Onyx Storm and I don't think that anybody except for people who knew that Zayden became Benin when he channeled could have known for five months, but the the Canon timeline of Onyx Storm which. My Full disclosure went through the wiki 4 but then did go back and check which took up probably 2 hours yesterday so RIP my God my life.

20:18 OK the Canon timeline of Iron flame into Onyx storm is Zaden turns Venon in December 6th. Then like, basically you just have to do math on like weeks that pass, and this leads to the Quest squad probably finding the ear. It's around March, which is then when Riddick sees Zaden and is like, you're a venant and then says you have to tell whoever.

20:42 So that's four months 3. And then in late December, December to March, Yeah, yeah. December to March, 4:00-ish months, maybe under. Yeah, maybe a little less. And then in late April, early May is when the ending of Onyx Storm happens. So if you take Zaden very literally, where he says, you know, you've seen me for five months, stumble and fall, whatever he, whatever the exact line is, that would mean that whoever, like whoever turned, knew about Zaden from when he turned, which makes so I think, Riddick. You believe that it's Riddick.

21:13 I agree, I don't really think it's Riddick. Org is in play. We don't know when, Zaden told Brennan. We. Don't know when Zaden told Brennan. We don't know when Zader told Brennan. Obviously too too, he's already someone's brother, right? So calling him the brother would be an interesting thing to do.

21:30 The other thing though is that Violet makes a mention of Brennan's eyes when she when she's back in, right? So she says his eyes bulge and he looks me over for injury. She doesn't say his eyes bulge and there's like red rims around them. Granted, this is 12 hours later, so maybe they could have faded. I find it extremely hard to believe that it's Brennan. Yeah.

21:54 Because if he was going to channel. If Brennan's been and he's already been in my right, right, he's been in. He's he's been better, yeah. He's been better. But like also like we just went through this whole thing with Mira and Sloan right? Where he didn't channel, and if he was going to channel, wouldn't that have been the time to do it, right?

22:12 Like Rebecca also said. I also realize I'm now saying things Rebecca said without finding a quote for them, so I apologize. I don't have an exact quote for this, but I believe she said pay attention to who's missing at the end of Onyx Storm. Brennan very clearly not missing. Not missing at all. Yeah, so weak arguments for Brennan.

22:29 Weak arguments for Brennan. Do we wanna talk about ARC? Yeah, all right. Do you wanna go first? Sure, we had a few interesting comments here, some I like, some I mostly wanna disagree with, but there were a few comments in favor of Arc that that we had not brought up. OK, so the first was Yeehaw. The username is Yeehaw.

22:49 Yeehaw commented that the wording he has another sibling he can use against me is interesting wording because of Holden's relationship with Zaden or interactions with Zaden to date. So, Yeehaw commented, Holden may have already been used against Satan in some way, or could be another sibling. OK, hold on back up.

23:08 Just because I'm having trouble remembering. So I want to remember. Remind our listeners. So Zadan says that the sage now has another brother that he can quote, UN quote, use against me and that complicates. Things right? Another sibling he can use against. Another sibling he can use against me. So Yeehaw is like could could this be another hint towards Arc?

23:27 Because we've are like thinking through the siblings, the actual siblings that Zadan has interfaced with like Cam, Arc and Halden and Alec are clear siblings that Zadan has had interactions with in the past. So could this be another sibling that the sage can use against Zadan? Which then we got another comment.

23:47 We got a lot of comments in this vein asking could King Tarry be Berwyn? I think we, you and I have talked a little bit, talked about it. I, I have trouble with it because I think it makes the plot line like really supremely simple and kind of boring, which isn't Rebecca's style. Daniel Heapster said could King Tarry be Berwyn and he's talking about Arc and Holden.

24:06 Pancheck might be talking about Arc and Berwyn might be talking about Holden. Meaning Pancheck had has access to Arik and Berwyn is saying I have another son and that other son could be hauled, in which case Berwyn is towering. We talked about this, we talked about this at our end of Onyx Storm episode, this possibility. I do, I just think.

24:24 That Tara being Berwyn would be so nuts. But I I do want to talk about the have another sibling he can use against me. Lying because I was rereading this like last week or something when when Violet finds out that Zadan was the one who killed Alec, Zadan says I have no idea how Arik found out right? Because clearly King Tari doesn't know or I would be dead right.

24:53 So is there is that how this sibling quote UN quote? I mean I honestly read this and I just assumed it was Jack like this Jack was the first sibling that that Berwyn was using against Zadan, but that's a sibling that could in theory be used against Zadan. Like someone could be blackmailing Zayden saying I know and I will tell King Tari.

25:11 Yeah, I guess what I'm I'm thinking about what you just said. Get surprised. Violet Zayden obviously just outright admits it, but ARC seemed to be the only person who knew. And if nobody else knew, like presumably King Tari would know if the misguised professors knew that. Yeah, that's to get killed, Alex.

25:29 That's a good throwing threshing. So, like, who else knows? And who told ARC? And how did ARC find out? That yeah, who told ARC that Zayden killed Alex? Yeah, I don't know. It's a question. This is before. This is before threshing bonded. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's not really adding up, is it?

25:49 No, it doesn't add up. And I assume, like, I mean, where my mind is going is like, is Alec alive? But if they didn't kill them, like I'm not sure Alex would like know how to make sure that Alec is dead, no? Alex. Alex is definitely dead, but that could be a sibling. Yeah, that Berwin could use against. I'm not saying this makes sense in my mind. I'm just trying to make this scenario make sense because I still firmly believe that the brother is Bodhi. Like I'm still firmly in that camp. I'm not, I'm not firmly out of Arc camp, but I don't think that Tarry being Berwyn, I just don't. Maybe I'm just being like, unfairly biased because I don't like it.

26:24 I don't want it. We also know all of the guards. OK, so we know from from that all of the guards at King Tarry's palace are wearing alloy hilted daggers, right? Like he says that like that's how we figured out what the venom were, because he saw the daggers and he did some research and he realized what was going on.

26:41 So like feel like if you're venom, you don't want those daggers around. But on the other hand, maybe he was trying to kill Dragons. I don't know. We now know that the that the alloy can kill Dragons. I don't know. I'm not sold on it. Yeah, not sold. 1 sweet idea that was in support of Arc that I really like. It was by Superman Grim.

26:58 Thanks, Superman. Grim pointed out that maybe Arik did turn because he knew that his turning would be the only thing that motivates his brother and father to find a cure. Like forcing them to face the reality of the venom and try and fix it, not just protect themselves from it and shy away from it and and you know, doom every other territory before their own. I thought that was a sweet idea.

27:25 I could see it. I absolutely believe if Arik turns and this is also why I don't think he's the brother. But I do think if Arik turns, it's for the greater good, right? Like it's to do something that why I don't think he's the brother. The mother of critters. That's her Instagram handle brought up. We have been saying that Rebecca said that the person who turned felt like they weren't enough during the battle. And she said actually that's not what Rebecca said and props to her.

27:49 She's right on this. She said what she actually said was pay attention to someone who feels like whatever they've been given isn't enough, which is always the case when you turn Ben and when you turn Ben. And it's always because you need to reach for power, be on your own. You aren't given enough power. So it's not about the battle specifically necessarily, it's about being given enough power.

28:09 And that is why in my mind arc, he is 100% out here, right? Because let's talk about his signet for a second. Do you remember in Fourth Wing when Jack fucking Barlow says I'm not the one who believes precognition is a real thing? Like quote, UN quote, unheard of. Only pre cock, the only pre cock who has ever existed, right?

28:29 Tell me how that's not enough power. OK, if that's not enough power, we talked about Molvic last week, right? We talked about how Molvic is actually on like par with Taryn and Segal, right? Like huge dragon, tons of power, like absolutely enough power. In that case, Arc has never seemed to be that interested in having a throne, right? Like there's arguments like, oh, he's the spare. He he did.

28:51 He says he doesn't care about the throne. He wants to fight. Like, that's what he cares about, and he's been given a legendary signet and a huge fucking dragon. So I just don't think this fits at all. Yeah, yeah, I agree. So I'm still team. Bodie. I mean, I think that the arguments against Bodie have been weak so far in my opinion. The only argument against Bodie is if these care. If these chapters are happening in parallel, then Bodie is. Not then.

29:15 We have eyes on Bodie. Yeah, so. But I think it's much more likely that Zeidan was doing something else. And. Something else? Yeah, I think that we. Just don't know. Yeah. Like we know there's some kind of ploy, some kind of plan in place. I think that's, I think Tomorrowland, yeah. I agree. OK. Did you have anything else on Garrick Bodie? I have a section of other ideas about the brother. Like people were just throwing out other stuff. Sure, let's talk about other possibilities. That we did not cover.

29:41 And some of them are are wild, but I do want to address them. Let's talk about Brennan first. Some people think it's Brennan. We got We got a bunch of comments about the fact that it could be Brennan. And here were my notes, almost verbatim. Guys, Brennan is completely fucking normal looking. When Violet gets back to Ryerson house, like he looks the same, she notices nothing different about him. And it's not like she wouldn't recognize red rims around the eyes, she has seen them in Zaid and she knows exactly what he looks like.

30:11 I guess Satan's red rims when he first channeled went away kind of quickly the first time after. We don't know exactly how. Quickly though, we don't know exactly how long and it's only been 12 hours since all of this went down. So I don't I think we like we'll probably next see this brother in initiate status in the next book.

30:32 But Even so, like you've got light red rims around your irises after they channeled pan check pan as in pan check being the brother. OK, so I have some thoughts here. My first thought like is Pan check the brother like no Zadan, Zadan like talks with resentment towards the brother, but he says things like he can't leave him to stumble down the same path I did.

30:57 Like if it were Pancheck, Zadan would absolutely fucking leave him to stumble on that same just kill it. Yeah. So I do not think he would give a single shit about Pancheck. So I do not think the Pancheck is the brother. I will even say about Pancheck. He dies. Yeah, he like, yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, for Pancheck.

31:14 He's dead. He says like something like I can't think about how many times he's given away Violet location or something like that. And then he's like, like he does. I will say like one thing that I did know in my reread of this passage is that Zayden mysteriously does not bother talking about Pancheck at all once his dragon is stabbed, does not confirm him alive or dead.

31:33 I'm not sure what Rebecca wants us to think here because the way that Berwyn then shifts his gaze to Zayden and says, did you see that? You're going to have to channel an immense amount of power to keep yourself alive after that happens to your dragon. It is not clear to me whether Pancheck channel to replace it was already Ven so therefore didn't die or like what happened.

31:52 Like I do not feel like we have enough to say Pantrek is confirmed dead based on that passage. I think he's likely dead, but they very specifically did not touch on it. No I totally agree with you. If Pantrek was already Venom then I think he's probably alive, but if he wasn't then he's dead and we don't know if he was Venom or if he was working with.

32:11 Them. Yeah, we have no idea. It does kind of read like he was because, Berwyn says did I not promise he power? Have I not delivered? Like, how would he have power if he wasn't Vernon? I don't know. I mean, I think up and near as to whether Panjrek is is Vernon or not, is dead or alive. No idea. People also called out Sawyer and asked whether we could talk about whether we thought that's whether Sawyer was the brother. This to me is where I looked up the Canon timeline was like, could Sawyer have possibly known for five months? I don't think it's possible.

32:43 I don't think he could have known. I don't think he fits all of the very limited criteria that we have understand whether he or not he could be the brother. I I'm just trying to think. I'm just trying to think because I I don't even remember the scene where VI tells RE and sorry, like I don't know when that happens, but like I'm thinking like his signet is metallurgy.

33:02 That's not going to it's not like metals going to whisper secrets to him, right? The way shadows baby tells aid and things. We're not really clear on that. Yeah, he certainly falls strong in the category of like he wasn't enough, but as far as how he could have known. Yeah, but I feel like we got over that.

33:17 I feel like we got past that. Like he got back on the dragon, you know? And that was his art. I don't. Know if amputees ever really get past it, but I. See weird stuff. I know, I know. But like he got back on the dragon. I feel like we're like. He's fighting. Yeah. I know. Yeah. Yeah. And he certainly is much less effective without his dragon now that he is down a leg.

33:38 So. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm team. It's not Sawyer. That's it. And then the last comment that I just want to say out loud. And maybe you have better ideas on this than I I do. Maya Sorrell said she has a hunch that maybe one of the main characters is secretly also Fenn's son. And to me, Bodhi is legitimately the only candidate for this.

33:59 And I don't love it because then it calls into question like his relationship with his mother, like. That that meant we talked about this last week, right? That means Fenn raped his sister, or at least fucked her. It means incest or not legitimately. Fenn's sister's son. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to fake a mother.

34:19 It's impossible, but it's hard. It's hard, yeah. So what I I actually did see a line that got me thinking about this, because what Zaden says about the rune stones that gave the March ones their rebellion relics, he said this one was keyed to a person of my bloodline. And Shin Violet says, oh, that's only you, right?

34:41 Like your friends only son, right? And he's like, yeah, but it was kind of a weird conversation. Interesting. Could there be another son? I know people think maybe Garrick and Zaden are brothers, but they think that through Talia, not through Fen. Unless they think literally. I mean, they're like the same age. We talked about this.

35:00 It doesn't work. Yeah. Unless Fen had an affair with Garrick's mother. Yeah, But they think they think that Talia is Garrick's mother because she says my son. Because she says poison my son. Yeah. And my son looks right at Garrick. Yeah. Yeah. Could Fen have another son? Yeah. Yeah, he could.

35:17 Who would feel like it would have to be younger than Zaden because the whole point of his marriage to Talia was for an heir. So if he has another son it's either 1 he didn't fucking want, which I guess maybe we're talking about, or two is younger than Zaden, Liam, Liam or Bodhi. Like that's it. Yeah, and Liam was so ick.

35:37 I know Liam's blonde. Liam. 'S blonde. Sometimes we don't know what colour hair, not even white. I know, I know, I know it. So my SRO, we're trying for you but I don't know about this one. But I welcome more thoughts on it. Please, please honest to God, if you guys have ideas on who's else Fen's son could be, that's not Bodie.

35:59 Tell us because I would love to talk about it, but I just don't think it's Bodie and I don't. People have brought up, people have brought up the suspicion that Dane and Zayden are related to. Again, I say Dane is a white man. I feel like I brought that up. I talked about the possibility I think I had in my notes.

36:16 I don't know if we actually talked about it with the possibility of Fen and Atos being brothers. Potential. Yeah. So it's not that Atos isn't Dean's father, it's that they're cousins. Yeah, I have nothing more to add here. I have nothing to say about that. OK, yeah, OK. The next topic we wanted to talk through was feedback that we got or ideas that we had about Zadan's plan.

36:40 Abby, you want to lead off on this because I have nothing. Yeah. OK. So I don't, I didn't really know what we meant about Zadan's plan necessarily, but I did want to talk about, and we did touch on this, but I think there's a couple different flavors of it. The possibility of the dragon eggs being taken to fire another ward stone somewhere, a ward stone that I'm assuming does not currently exist that they would they would build from scratch.

37:05 I was going through my notes for like a different part of this episode or other episode. And we do have an exact timeline on how quickly it takes Dragons to fully mature after they've hashed. The quickest ones are three years. So that's a lot shorter than I thought. I thought it was like 20 years, but like the quickest Dragons can fully mature within three years. And we find this out in the veil when and Darna says I'm two years old, I'll be fully grown in another year or two. And Terence says, yeah, like the the full ones happen in three to four years.

37:35 So three years is not that long. It's actually not that crazy a plan to steal six eggs to potentially fire another word stone within three years, even though I mean, the problem is right, we keep being told that then and are going to overrun us in six months. So we don't have three years. We do potentially have earrids that can potentially manipulate time. Maybe it's not that crazy, I don't know. So like the three years things?

37:57 Work works, potentially earrids are in play or driving it. Which I also want to talk about, but yes, they know how to create a word stone now, right? So we have Lear's journal. They know how to create a word stone. They could potentially do that. The last we see of it just and he has it. So and we know that Zaydan is super skilled at ruins or I guess we're just assuming that, but like he made those ruins for those daggers and he's cherish.

38:21 So I'm assuming in theory, they could know how to fire word stone. They are going to need an ear to do this. I have a note on that. They're going to need an ear to do this. They're also going to need to know what each dragon egg color is, right? So we talked about this, right? It's the quote is only the eldest of our den can sense a hatchlings pigment, right. So elders can tell what color hatchlings are going to be. As a reminder, all Dragons are hatched gold. But that says nothing about what color the Dragons are going to be when they're in their eggs, right? Yeah, if they have an Earrid with them. Baby earrids can sense this.

38:57 Earrid seem to have a lot of 6th sense about things. We know that Aunt Dharna could hear things when she was in her egg shells. Yeah, and her eggshell, but kind of a reach. I don't know. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility. I just don't think we have enough information yet. Yeah. So I have another item I wanted to talk about as part of our other stuff category that might just slot in better here. So Naomi, thank you.

39:22 Naomi commented on our YouTube that in Iron Flame Violet says the dragon scales are hereditary and I Fact Check it and it is true. She says in chapter 2 of Iron Flame that dragon scales are hereditary. Which throws so many things that I thought I had kind of squared away in my head into question. Mostly the black Dragons that have rashed in Arisha because we know 2 black Dragons alive and it's Taryn and Kodak. OK, so that was most of what I want to talk about with with respect to that.

39:52 So let's come back to that in a second. But if that's the case, I I don't think that we can definitively say we know the exact colors of these Dragons, but I think we could say we know like one of two like the, you know, Dragons in that case. Squares. I would probably grab like 10 dragon eggs, but sure, yeah.

40:09 Sure, yeah, but also like, could they have chosen in that case, right? If dragon scales are in fact hereditary, could they have chosen, you know, eggs of mated pairs that were the same den and like That answers that question. So I think it gives a little bit more merit to the Wardstone theory. Yes, so, so the and just to be clear, we talked about this last time in the context of the ear.

40:33 It's taking the dragon eggs to fire another wardstone. It can't just be the ear. It's right, because for again, they don't have a posable thought. So like they can't we, we've, we've clearly stated that Dragons need humans to put up Wardstones, right? So like, I think it is possible that the Erids are working in conjunction, in conjunction with Zadan and his merry band of Venon now. But it can't, it can't just be the Erids if that's what's happening.

41:00 But they need an Irid. They absolutely need an Irid in order to do this. Right. And so far from what we've seen, like Leothan was the one who fired the other wordstone who was a little bit of a defect against like the typical Irid like mindset, right? So and Dharna and Leothan have already fired Wordstones.

41:19 So like who's the 3rd going to be? Who's down for that sort of thing? And I do want to talk about Leothan later. I do think there's an unanswered question with him, but we'll get to that later. I mean, and then the last thing we talked about too is if they want to fire a new boardstone to protect Paromia. I think that makes sense.

41:36 I think that's honorable. But like, does it really make sense for Zadens agenda to fire a new boardstone? Like if he if, if he can't, but we don't really know, but like, if we're assuming he can't exist within the words, then no, it doesn't make any sense. But if he can't exist in the words because he still has his connection to Seagal and like, once she's recovered, it's all fine, then OK.

41:56 Yeah, it makes sense again. Yeah, I agree with that. I feel like we're doing a lot of talking in circles in this episode, but I just think it's because we're getting into so the nitty gritty. So I hope everyone can follow. We're like double clicking from topics that we already got into that we're pretty weeny. Yeah.

42:15 The only other thing I would mention with the ward stones, we don't actually know which Dragons have fired any ward stones at this point in time because we know that Leo thing comes back to fire the Oricia ward stone, but it's not clear if he just like added his fire on top of the existing fire or if he had to gather 6 other Dragons and fire the Oricia ward stone. So we don't know who fired Oricia. We don't know who fired Baz Gaiath apart from CODAG and Dharna.

42:42 We know who else was there there, but we don't know exactly like whose dragon was actually breathing on the wood stone. So and I don't know that it matters. I feel like if it mattered, Rebecca would have put it in there. Well, we know for Arisha the first go round, right? And I feel good that Leothan just fired on top of otherwise like where are we getting the third Black Dragon? Great point.

43:01 Well, the Ashley's, no, that's a great point. Nobody in that case. Until they're 2. Right. In that case it's Terence Segal, Ferga, Cath Marv, Ceres Brown Club tail, not Chadra, Right And Leothan for Orisha. Yeah. So but in that case. Wait, say that again. OK, so the people, the drag, sorry, the people.

43:19 The Dragons who fired the Orion word stones? Taran. Yeah, Segal Sure. Ferga. Shocking. Honestly. We had a long conversation about this on the discord that it's Ferga who fires the Orisha wordstone and how that makes absolutely no sense. But it makes no sense. Yeah, I know, Kath. Marv Surrey's brown club tale. So not Chadra.

43:41 Chadra has not fired a wardstone. Yeah. And our ear, it is Leophen. So that's who's are they? The Arifian elders maybe Because there's that line that Dane has that there's a line when they're going to fire the Arishian wardstone. The second time that the original line in like Warwick's Journal was the 6th most powerful came and fired the Wardstone. But then Dane realizes that it's more political power rather than power powers.

44:07 So then Violet realizes is they need a representative from each den which is how they ended up with Ferga. I don't know where Tyna was and I don't know where Kier was either core but that's how they end up with Ferga. It's like kind of doesn't make any sense. This is literally a whole rabbit hole in the discord.

44:24 OK. I'll go look at it. But wasn't there a comment when she was first figuring this out for it was? No, it wasn't. It was just a live versus in residence. Yeah, but. I Well, we'll get to this. I have an omission in our next episode about the original writers that they shows as the most powerful writers, because I think we've overlooked something based on that.

44:42 Fierka though, I think I know where you're going with that. We can talk about it later, but Fierka Well, so it is possible that the reason they didn't choose core is or they they didn't choose Teina is because my potential list for the first yeah, right. My potential list for Baz Gaia Wardstone is CODAG arc was in the wardstone shaver.

45:01 So it could have been Molvic mirror was there could have been Tyna Sloan was there. So it could have been Thornt and then orange. We don't know. Brown could could have been aimed here, but he could have died. But I think, I think they're not the elders, right? Because clearly they're not gathering the elders to fire the Bazgayeth Wordstone, right?

45:18 It's just like, I think it's whoever's there, but we don't really know. We don't see it. Violet doesn't see it. Yeah, this isn't sitting right with me, but I'll think more about it. All right, the next topic we wanted to talk about was Xenon Violet's marriage and we. So on the last episode, we talked about why we think that they got married in Unbreal and not the Dunes Temple in Orisha. A lot of people don't agree with this. So I want to talk about the comments that were left that do not agree with this because I do think there are some good ones. Like I think it's fair.

45:45 It's not the obvious answer. Getting married in Gabriel. A lot of people think they just did get married in Orisha and he just can't wield in Orisha, which could be totally fair. There's obviously reasons that we believe that that was a dicey decision, right? Because everyone in Orisha knew the second that he, you know, channeled and put out an Onyx storm like everyone knew. And it was apparent, right?

46:08 And those in that last chapter that people knew that Satan was bad news at this point. And there seemed to be a little bit of a witch hunt going on. So how could he have just walked into Dunes Temple in Orisha and gone married? That's why we think he didn't, but a lot of people think he. Did and Segal says Like the red rings around your eyes are permanent and you've got veins like coming from your eyes now, too. Right, like he's the.

46:30 Physical change has happened. Yeah, he's very obviously Bannon. People left the note that Garrick and basically any signet couldn't have helped them on on real right, because there's no magic and except andarnas and violets. And so that would indicate that flight needed to happen, right. I won't rehash everything we've talked about with like how they could have gotten to and from on real like we totally think that's possible, but like understood that Garrick is not a contender there.

46:55 So no, we said that we talked about that. Perhaps the most compelling argument for getting married in Arisha is that both the favor ode to Zadan and the dagger that Violet uses is from the high priestess of Dunes Temple in Orisha I. Think the dagger we talked about this. I'm pretty sure the dagger is from Unreal. No, the dagger is from Orisha when Violet is opening the package and note that has the note from the high priestess and the dagger The note is from Ark says from when you lose your strike in the dark Violet and she says the fall has broken the wax seal and the parchment and rolls as I loosen my grip, dropping a carved piece of grey marble in my lap, a ceremonial looking dagger with familiar

47:38 flame shaped etchings along the hilt. I glance at the accompanying note from the high priestess of Dunes Temple in Orisha, but the letters blur as the pain in my arm flares and tear and thrashes to free us. So the dagger is from Orisha not like you know, not a it absolutely couldn't have happened in unreal.

47:55 But so far, everything that we've seen, both the dagger and the fact that Ark said protect Dunes Temple, like you have to was the temple in Orisha. So I still think there's an argument for them getting married in Umbreel because we kind of already saw a benefit from protecting that temple in Orisha because we got the dagger, right.

48:14 But it is all it's it's time back to Dune's temple in Orisha. So I'm kind of like, I don't know if I'm being converted, but like I definitely understand the argument. Understand the argument. I hear you. I I'm not passionate about this one either way. Honestly. But if they got, I think, I think we're about to say the same.

48:32 Thing what else happened in the 12 hours? Like what were they doing? Well, I was going to say, if they got married there, Rebecca has to explain how Zaden can just fucking walk into Arisha no problem right now. Yeah, like, yeah, that too. I mean, that's definitely an obvious one, but I'm, I'm more like, OK, if they just like went over to Arisha, like, what else did they do?

48:53 It's been 12 hours. Stole some dragon eggs, killed smelders, I don't know. Yeah, I don't think they did that. Yeah. They had to have done something though. So I guess to conclude here, I still find it really hard to imagine that Zaden was just fine weakening himself so materially to get married to Violet because like, regardless, right, He could not channel within the oration wards.

49:15 He had to have been willing to basically just walk into Dunes Temple with Violet, knowing that both he and Violet were vulnerable and that he looked full fucking venom when he walked in. But maybe Segal and Taryn could guarantee their protection. So GAIL and Taryn have both been, like, viciously wounded and captured in this battle?

49:32 I don't know. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah, Yep. So I. Hear the arguments for Risha? I do. I don't think it's that crazy. I'm certainly willing to concede on this one. I don't know. We'll see. I guess we'll see. I think we've laid out the arguments for both of them quite well. Yeah, I just think there's there's more potential for like, what else could have been on the agenda if they did go back to unreal, right? Like, we know that Violet can enter their court at the rank of queen.

49:58 We know that, you know, they know them like they have met before. We also know, right? We just saw in these last few chapters that Dune has the ability to undo some of what Venice Power has done, so I want to talk more fun if we go there. So, yeah, so this is interesting to me. I thought it's interesting to me that they were able to kill Theophany with a dagger from the temple in Orisha because I thought it was unreal and I thought it was like her personal connection to unreal played a role in this. But this really shows it's just fucking doom. It's just it has nothing to do with which temple. Or like something like tying Theophany to her former life, like it's just dune and dunes.

50:37 Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is interesting. Which is interesting. Okay, cool. All right. Do we want to do other stuff? Other stuff? Do you have other stuff that you want to start with? Yeah. So my first one, which we didn't get any comments about because we didn't talk about it at all, but I thought it was kind of an omission on our part.

50:52 How will Violet find Satan? Do you have any thoughts on that? Dream walking, but I'd like to hear yours first. Dream walking is an option. We have some other physical options. So option #1 the stupid fucking compass. A lot of people think it's the stupid fucking compass. We got a fun. Comment about the compass but it's not how she's going to find Zadan.

51:13 So Danes classified signet patch is a compass that I think is fun. Violet using this compass that doesn't point N to find Zadan is 2 Pirates of the Caribbean for me. I can't do it. Yes, I said literally. It could be a Pirates of the Caribbean situation, but that's a little silly. We don't know where this compass points.

51:31 We only know that it doesn't point any more towards N It's not like file. It's like, oh, it points in Zaden's direction, or oh, it points in the direction of where we know Orisha is. It just doesn't point N OK, I guess it could be the compass. It'd be kind of like tacky, but sure, it could be the compass. This is where it gets fun.

51:47 We got a comment from a woman named Jamie on Instagram. We posted a clip today about Kat's role being really powerful in the upcoming books. She also pointed out, and I completely forgot about this, Kat is the only one who has mastered a quote UN quote tracking room, which is capable of tracking someone else's room. And then Violet literally writes, well, I guess just Sydney writes from Violet's point of view. Mind blowing.

52:13 This isn't chapter 58 of Iron Flame if you're looking for it. So Cat can create a room that can track other people's rooms. We know that Zaden is covered in a rebellion relic. That's kind of a room. He also probably has other rooms on him, right? So can Cat somehow track a room that Zaden has? I couldn't think of a specific one or find a specific one but are tracking runes which again Rebecca wrote mind blowing next to going to play a role in this.

52:39 Yeah, I like that a lot because I thought about something similar where I was like, maybe Chadra can help because he's like sensitive to runes. But then I was like, Garrett's definitely with Satan, but. Garrett's with Satan. We know Garrett's with Satan. Well, we know Garrett's missing, I guess we don't ours with Satan.

52:54 All right. And I have one more theory and this is kind of my most fun theory and it gets back to the word stones. So, and this is going to seem as a totally out of left field question when the ocean comes back to Orisha, A, how did he find Arisha and B, how did he find the words don't change, right?

53:11 So we know that when they're unnamed Isle, I'm getting some echo. I don't know. Can you hear me? Can hear you OK, Who knows? We know that when they're on the unnamed dial, Garrick says that they are a two days flight southeast of the cliffs of Trailer or southwest of the cliffs? Cliffs of Trailer, right? 2 day flight northeast.

53:30 Suck. Did Leothan nowhere to go right? Like when he was flying for them? Like how does he know where Arisha is if the Irans have never been on the continent, Right? OK, but Irans? Have been there the whole time. We have, we have three options. We have three options as I can, as as far as I can see it in terms of how he finds Arisha.

53:47 So first one, Leothan is over 600 years old and was there when the first Wordstone was fired. Maybe. I don't know. I don't. I don't think so because he says, can't remember the exact comment, but when he's talking to Andarna about the fact that they're of the same den, he's like, I'm not. He basically says something along the lines of like I'm not your sibling, I'm not your parent obviously, but like we are of the same line. So that makes me think that he hatched a normal succession and she just stayed in her egg for a super long time. OK, great.

54:13 So that's not it. I put unlikely in parentheses behind that one, but I like to talk through all the options because people come at us with all these crazy things. Option 2 that we've talked about, Secret Era Den on Arisha or on the continent. So there's earrids. They told the oath and where to go.

54:26 I think that's a good option. My favorite option. Can earrids track each other the way that them can track each other, Right, Yeah. So Violet says when the earrids show up on the unnamed dial, they says we didn't find the Irids, they found us. How did they find them? We're literally dealing with the whole continent.

54:46 How did the Irids find them? How would the Irids know where to go? Were they, were they trapped to an Darna? Right? Yeah. We don't know where Leothan is at the end of Onyx Store. Could he have come back with an Darna? Clearly, as you mentioned before, he's kind of a little, he's much more sympathetic to this cause than it seems like any other Irid.

55:03 Could he have come back with an Darna? And do an Darna and Leothan know where each other's each other are the way initiates an Ace of Snow where each other are? I think that's an interesting possibility. I just want to talk about one more thing with the Ward stone chamber, because it's not only that Leothan found Arisha, right? We're told in Iron Flame that the Ward stone chamber itself in Arisha can't be seen from the sky and is hidden by very old, very complicated masking routes, right? Then Leothan just flies right there. Like he just as far as we know, he flies there, he fires it. How did he do that?

55:39 Irids can do anything, are ruins just. Like what are earrings is my concluding question. They're magic. But as we've talked about, if Zayden's plan is to fire another word stone somewhere, they need another Irid. We don't know who that Irid would be. It can't be Leothan. But if they're with an Irid, if they were with Leothan and another Irid, and this is getting really wild.

56:02 I recognize that. Is that boop? I've been told that the kids do this now this, this thing. I don't know what it. Is since you're being shy, that's not what you're going for. No, but my point is I think Irids contract each other. Yeah. And I think that might be what in Derna is doing with her talent when she is landing on all the aisles too. That seems like very logical in the way that she does it. Like she lands and she scratches and she says my people aren't here.

56:29 So I think I totally think they can. And I think to the point I think you were getting at like irids and venon seem to be mirrors of each other in different species which I think is fun. I guess like the ultimate question then is like where are they getting the ward stone to our knowledge as only a spare was created by lira.

56:47 So like do we need to understand more about who another one of the 1st 6 is or understand how to create a ward stone? They know how to create a ward stone now I think, right? Like they have the journals and they have the diagram. So like I think they can create their own word stone, but like the actual material of the ward stone itself seems to.

57:07 Be talking about yeah, yeah. I don't know. The actual stone, like I get we know how to, we know what runes need to happen, we know like the procedures for like activating it, but there was already a dormant ward stone that existed when we went through all of this. So how? How do we make one? They said they think it's Onyx. Yeah, which is, and it's huge pooch. Satan's bracelet.

57:27 Where did Violet get that? Did Brennan get? Onyx Yeah. All right, so that was one of my other things. I have one more other thing, but what do you want to talk about? I want to. I have two other things as well. One, I want to go back to the dragon scales being hereditary. So again, Naomi commented on our YouTube clueing us in that literally in chapter 2 of Iron Flame, she's cut off as she's saying it.

57:47 So none of us processed it when we read it apparently. But Violet says that dragon scales are hereditary, so. Cuts her off. What's the full context here? Yeah, hold on, let me go. Sorry. I will read the quote. I think it's obviously it's. I'm pretty sure it's fucking taryn Which. Makes me think that Violet's wrong because we know how Taryn likes to cut Violet off. When she's right.

58:07 When she's figuring things out, she shouldn't be figuring out, but yeah. Well this is specifically when and dharna is is presenting as black and Violet is like is she yours? Right. If they are hereditary, if the scales are hereditary, then the only black Dragons that we'd know exist are Terran and Kodak.

58:31 We have not heard of any mates that Kodak may or may not have. I don't know whether Dragons only procreate with mates or whether there's concepts of contract marriages or just like mating in dragon world. Like I don't know these hatched in Arisha. So if that's if we take that to be true, then these are sounding a lot like they are Terrans.

58:52 And if they are Terrans like that makes me think that Seagal might not actually be leaving with Satan. So that's that side of the argument. If they are fully hereditary and Taran and Codeagra the only two black Dragons in play here, then I think in that situation they are Terrans and that I don't know what Seagal is going to do about the whole Satan situation. Maybe they're staying local, I don't know. However, the fact that Taran followed up with black Dragons are rare but not unheard of makes me think that maybe the Dubman line is not the only one that exists for black Dragons. Humans have very limited insight right into dragon politics. Dragon kingdoms?

59:30 Like are there other black Dragons that have just been in hiding in Arisha? Whatever that have now hatched there? I don't know, but it is kind of like throwing my world upside down. Well, I have a hereditary I have a couple of thoughts about. It 1 Violet says dragon scales are hereditary. Terran says only the elders can sense a Dragon's pigments, right? So, and we know that humans are wrong about dragon stuff all the time.

59:55 So I'm kind of like, OK, maybe Violet's just wrong about this number one. Number two, and again, this came up in our discord. It seems like there's no set gestation period for how long it takes a dragon egg to hatch. No. Yes, and they totally could have been. Like they could literally be Taran's sibling. No idea.

1:00:11 They could write these eggs could be hundreds of years old, their parents could have died off. And someone was arguing that that's why they're saying the only the elders can sense their pig. It's like it's kind of for the unclaimed eggs, the eggs that have been around for a while, and they've just like lost track. Or the Dragons have died.

1:00:28 Or the Dragons have died, right? Yeah, yeah, also possible. Yeah, but that brings into question why any dragon hatches when they hatch and who they're waiting for, right? If Aunt Darna was waiting for Violet, who was Tan waiting for? And like we have been given reason to believe that the Dragons can hear from inside their eggs.

1:00:47 At least Aunt Darna could, yeah. So I don't know. I don't know. I think maybe it was an oopsie. But maybe it was an oopsie, or maybe it was a Violet doesn't know what she's talking about, but Violet's whole thing is kind of that she does. Well, Violet's whole thing is that she reads books and the person who wrote the book on Dragons is Kaori, and Kaori is wrong about a lot.

1:01:10 I think Violet even says when Terrence says only the elders know the color of a hatchling scale that Kaori would be like salivating to find this out. I think she might have said that I might be wrong. Are you looking it up? Actually he does, but it's specifically about tails. Tails are a matter of choice. I need.

1:01:27 Right, Yeah. OK, let's keep it rolling. All right. What is your next other stuff item? The other thing I have is what did Pancheck and Berwyn agree to? So Pancheck says like this was not part of our arrangement or something like that. I can't remember the exact words, really. This was not part of the plan, basically. So people brought this up.

1:01:43 A lot of people brought this up. I don't have an exact name, but basically the question is, is this the eggs? Like, could Pancheck have agreed to give Berwyn these six dragon eggs in exchange for something? We don't know what power, I guess in exchange for power. I said I I didn't think so because I don't think that the timeline works out if Pan check is dead. We don't know if Pan check is that it's not clear. Usually if someone's killed off screen, they're not really dead. But Aims here was killed off screen and he seems to be really dead.

1:02:10 But the dragon eggs were taken in the last couple hours is what's implied. And Pan check died if he was dead 12 hours ago because the elders were murdered in the valley in the last few hours. And then they say and it looks like the 6th and it looks on last count we were missing 6 dragon eggs. So seems to me that the timeline doesn't work out, but my fault if the timeline does work out.

1:02:32 My follow up on This is why would the venom want 6 dragon eggs? Like what do they get from six Dragons? They already have Wyvern right? Why would they want Dragons? What's the benefit of Dragons over Wyvern? Brennan says that the energy, the magic from the veil could feed them for decades. But like what would 6 dragon eggs get them?

1:02:51 Like how far would that get them in terms of like draining the energy? And they also like have plenty of land and within paromeo that they can drain from. So I'm just not really clear on why the venom would want 6 dragon eggs, but we could just not know fully yet. Maybe Thoughts on that? No, I just don't think that the venom would want dragon eggs. Yeah, I think the venom would want a live dragon. I think the venom want the hatching grounds. They want the magic at the hatching grounds, but stealing 6 dragon eggs doesn't give you that magic. Yeah, right.

1:03:24 I mean, unless they're trying to literally, like unless they're playing a long game where they plan to actually grow their own veil basically, then I could I could see it. But Even so, like my understanding of how they would use the veil is it would feed them but they would deplete it. So like it's kind of like growing your own farm that doesn't regenerate. Why would that be your long game? Yeah, And the other problem with this is, so there's two ways this goes, right?

1:03:51 Either Pancheck is venom and he lives, but that means he can't wield within the Arishian boards and his dragon is dead, so he's just fucked and he couldn't have stolen the eggs, right? Because this all happens when Arisha or Pancheck is not a venom, and he dies when his dragon dies. So I think either way, Pancheck was not responsible for taking these eggs. It's fine.

1:04:09 Thank you. Yeah, I agree. Yep, Yep, I agree. I'm liking the Wardstone idea more and more because of the six Dragons and the six and. Yeah, yeah. It also just seems like it's either human or dragon driven, like you said, like the venom have very little to gain from hatchlings that everybody else, Dragons, irids and humans have a lot to gain from hatchlings.

1:04:34 And also I think one like other important note, not that it means that an opposing party didn't take the dragon eggs, but like at Ryerson House, the sounds inside the doors are celebration. So like they're celebrating a victory. It's not like conflict is still ongoing or like super recent conflict like it's been over for long enough that people are inside celebrating.

1:04:55 And so this to me seems like a steep feeling in the dark type situation rather than and what's interesting. Too is that Brennan doesn't know, right? Like Brennan doesn't know until Wilson tells him. Which, like, yeah, like, if this happened during the battle, if this happened more than, like, however many hours ago, like, Brennan would know. OK.

1:05:15 OK. So there's one more that I really want to talk about. There's a few like more little ones, but I think there's one that's just worth calling out. And I don't think it'll take very long because I think we're just going to agree with it if I know you. So we talked at decent length about how we think the Bennett know their own cure. We definitely know that Theophany knew the cure and like knew at least if there is no cure, then she knew how to stop Zadan's progression or save him or whatever it was because she says I have the answers you seek to violent. And we know that Violet's number one. But like ultimate question was how do I save Zadan? And Charlene pointed out that if the Benin do know their own cure, which I refuse to believe

1:05:54 that that knowledge died with theophany, then will Violet's dream walking be how she finds the cure? Will her dream walking into the minds of other Ben and B, how she learns whatever it is? Because we know from her prior dream walking experiences that she can embody the dreamer, and when she does, she gets contextual knowledge from them.

1:06:14 She doesn't have to know things herself as Violet to know them in that dream. She's never been to Dreythus. She knows that it's Dreythus. I just think that's true. I think that's how it's going to happen. Yes. Yes. Thank you, Charlene. I agree. I agree. I hope so. I hope that's what it is. Yep, seems a little easy.

1:06:33 It seems it seems easy, but like she has to hone dream walking and figure out who knows it. So I think that's going to be a lot of. Well, and. Like her figuring out how to do. That, I bet How it plays out, is that Berwyn is the one who knows it, and that he has he knows how to. Walk. Maneuver within dreams? Yeah, definitely.

1:06:51 And she's going to walk into people's heads while they're awake, but we'll see. We're going to get to a precog about that. Not this episode. Though we've talked about this link 7. Times because I have. Evidence that it did happen. Wait, can I get it's next episodes precog? No, you want me to talk about it now?

1:07:07 We could I can switch? It around I can switch. Is it right before Zayden channels? For the first time, because that's when I think it happened. Yeah, it is. OK, nevermind. All right, So do we want to talk about it or? No, Yeah. Let's jump to precog corner theory. All right, we're doing pre cog corner. That was fun.

1:07:24 Abby, what is your pre cog corner theory? I have written in my notes. Violet is dreamwalking. When she's fully awake and she's doing it to Dragons. All right, so you seem to already know about this. Yeah. Have we already talked about this or did you just also find it? I had a running list at some point.

1:07:40 Of all of the times it seemed like Violet was entering somebody else's head and this was on it. But I like it a lot, so let's just do it anyway. So all of this happens in the Wardstone. Chamber at the end of Iron Flame at Bazgayeth in a moment of extreme distress. And the reason I'm bringing that up is because we have an epigraph about Mira and how Mira wields her segment, right? Basically the gist of it is that Mira is able to wield words effectively in moments of extreme distress. So we have this idea that in moments of extreme emotions, we've seen it obviously with Violets lightning wielding and her having sex with Zaidan.

1:08:16 In moments of extreme emotions, you can make your signet into something more powerful than it is at its baseline. Right. So we've already talked about her entering into Zaden's mind when they're like having sex and like putting ideas into his head and like projecting images into his head. But we were like, OK, this could be a Bond thing. It doesn't necessarily need to be a dream walking thing. She does this twice, I believe, in the Ward stone chamber at this guy.

1:08:42 She does it with the Gale, and then she immediately does it with Brennan. OK, so the first is the Gale, who's a fucking dragon, and then Brennan, who is fully awake and it's really quick. It's really, really fucking quick. And with Seagal, you could argue it's a bond thing, but it's happening to a dragon, right?

1:08:58 So she does it to Seagal. The quote is fight. I screamed down the bond at all three of them, shouting past blood and vengeance, wrath and fire, the sour taste of Wyvern flesh between her teeth. Right. So the the horror is Seagal here. It's not in Dharna because the bond she's talking about is her bond with the three of them, which is Violet, we're sorry, which is Terrence Seagal and Zeid.

1:09:18 And we know that Darna is a different channel, a different bond, right? So she says the sour taste of Wyvern flesh between her teeth. That is not so Taryn is letting me see through his eyes, right? That is, I am like tasting what Seagal is tasting. That is, I am in her brain. I'm experiencing the sensations that she is experiencing, right?

1:09:38 I think that's the dream walking segment. But Violet had no idea, right? Violet could not recognize that. She did not recognize that she's in Seagal's head in that moment. Yep. She then immediately. Immediately. After that does it to Brennan. Right, so the quote is? Miras hands are on my face, searching my eyes as a shape blocks the entrance to the tunnel. Are you all right?

1:09:58 I couldn't stop her. Was that my voice or Brennans? So she literally does not know if she's in her own consciousness at this point. She doesn't know if she's herself or if she's Brennan. So I think basically like kind of like you talked about with like Taryn just projecting his consciousness during the trial for the, I can't remember her name, Aura. No, it's not Aura.

1:10:18 It's Amber Mavis. I think basically she's in a moment of extreme distress here and has just like projected her consciousness into anything that will kind of accept it at this point in time, right? And she has Segal available to her through the bond, and she has Brennan available to her because he's her brother or it just happened to be those two.

1:10:39 I don't know. There's obviously other people in the board chamber, too. I don't really know why it's specifically Segal and Brennan, but I do think this is the dream walking, the mind walking, let's call it. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, she's, she's just straight up in people's heads. She's just straight up in people's heads. People and Dragons, yeah.

1:10:57 Yeah. Yeah, and we see it like you're right. We see it in my opinion and a lot of other places across Iron Flame and Onyx Storm as well, but always could be explained away. Where is this moment at least the Brennan piece is really tough to explain away. There's a way crazier place you could take that where we've talked a lot about nail and giving his life force to Brennan and like could he be like a fifth prong in this bond? Like I don't know, maybe.

1:11:25 But I think it's more likely that it's just she's not just going to walk into peoples heads when they're asleep. Like I think that's what we're seeing here. Could be not I mean. This is obviously a very tiny line, but it could be a little nugget. That's why it's a precog theory. Yeah, yeah. But no, like I don't. Agree with you that it's that tiny. Like it's very big, like it happens all over the place. This is just the one place.

1:11:47 It's kind of like the Marin moment of the dream walking. It's like the one place where we're given a data point. Like maybe it's not just her bond with Satan, or her bond with Taryn, or her bond within Dharna, because it's not Taryn's eyes that she's seeing through it. Specifically Sigales Sigales. Yeah, Sigal's mouth.

1:12:04 That she's feeling, I guess. Yeah, Yep, I think that's right, right. Cool dream walking going to be big going to be big going to be not dream walking OK minds we got corner theories is less kind of less fun. We have talked this is ending of onic storm related still we're following the theme and we've talked about what it is when Zaden leaves a letter for Violet that says don't look for me.

1:12:30 It is yours now. It's yours now. And there's, I mean, obvious answers. We've talked about it being his soul that is now fully hers because maybe she's dedicated to Malik. We have also talked about the possibility of it being Tyrandor totally still on the table. My precog corner theory is also a mailbag because Jesse from Book Talk pointed.

1:12:51 Her name is Jesse from Book Talk On and Jesse from Book Talk left a comment that kind of sent me reeling. And the comment is not actually that crazy. It's more in the vein of Tier and Door. But what it meant to me, what's kind of crazy? So she left a comment that basically says it is actually his name, his name and his title, which is very sweet, right? Because, yeah, maybe she is Violet Soren GAIL Ryerson now, because in order to become Duchess, he has said the title is tied to my name.

1:13:16 Yeah, the title's tied to my name. Yeah. Yeah, title's tied to my. Name. We can use yours if you want. But it makes sense to me, if the end game of marrying her, other than the fact that he's madly in love with her, is also so that Tierra Dor can be used to protect her, then she really does have his name. And this made me think about Venon's names, right? He's saying it's yours now, implying it's no longer his, right?

1:13:39 It is yours now. So if it is his name and he's saying my name is yours now, I don't think we know of any Venon's names that like we're also the names of real people that we know other than Jack, right, who's fairly early on in his Venon journey career, Venon career, Venon journey. We don't know whether Theophanes name was Theophanes name when she was human because she's super old.

1:14:04 We feel like Berwyn's name is not actually was not actually Berwyn when he was human. So what if Vennon's names once they become Vennon or maybe become a certain rank and Vennon are no longer their human names? Like what if Zadan's name is not his anymore? That'd be so sad. I mean, I think it'll be for the sake of this book, but like, what if more broadly about like regarding Vennon, what if they give up their human names and their human identities and now they are just Vennon? Let's talk about that when we talk about. Leashes and tethers in the next episode. But I think I think you're potentially on to something here.

1:14:40 I don't necessarily think that just because Violet has the last name Ryerson that that means Satan doesn't anymore. I mean, obviously we see that all the time, but I I think it's an interesting and very sad train of thought that he could end up with a different name or just maybe not his last name like we've heard. No Benin.

1:14:56 'S last names. Yeah, well, because if people said. Berwyn Ryerson. It would give away the plot. Well, yeah, if it's. Ryerson I know, I know. Yeah. And it also made me think. About how Brennan changed his last name. I know he changed his last name for a very obvious reason, right? Like he didn't want to be a Soren Gale in Arisha, but he did take on a new name and then went back to his old one.

1:15:19 Wow. And who else changed their name? Aric. Yeah. Interesting. OK, point for. Aric is the brother, perhaps if that's a. Sign. I don't know though, I also he changed it before he became a writer. Do we know? I thought I saw this on the wiki. That do we know what his last name was when his when he was Cam Harry?

1:15:38 Because. But that's not how. That's not how royal titles. Work like it's King Charles, right? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I have more. Stuff on this in the next episode too when we talk about the Cordelas cuz I'm like what the fuck is going on there? Yeah cool. I thought you we could find a reference to his name real quick. Hold on.

1:15:59 Well, I think the wiki has it as tarry, but. Which is just not how it works. Yeah. It says is his full name Kamlin. Kamlin Aric Tarry. Yeah. Yeah. He's just referred to as Prince Kamlin. Yeah. No last name in a missive. Yeah, know that it matters. I don't know that it matters, but. Tarry should be a first name.

1:16:19 It shouldn't be a last name. Again, I don't know. It should be Takaris at all. Yeah, but yeah, as. Should be Takaris, yeah, but more on that in the next episode coming up. Coming up. OK. Abby, what are you? Reading OK so I talked about this book a couple weeks ago and I got. Impatient waiting for it from the library, so I just downloaded it on my Kindle.

1:16:38 Yeah, because I thought it would be a fun sexy beats read and it's turning out to be an incredibly dark psychosexual thriller, which I'm still here for. Different vibe though. But it's that book Anathema. Oh yeah, it's so. Dark. It's so fucking dark. I like it though. I'm here for but it is like definitely not for anyone susceptible to any sort of trigger warnings whatsoever.

1:17:02 I'm like 11 chapters in and I'm like where the fuck could we possibly be going with this? This has been so crazy. OK but I like it. I will read it. First I will read it first. And then let you know if I think you should read it. Definitely, there's parts of it you might like. I mean, nothing, nothing terrible has happened. It's all been like flashbacks and stuff. But like, I could see it going really dark. But I really, I really like it.

1:17:25 I guess I'm already thinking about myself. I don't know. I'm pretty good about darkness in. Books. What I really struggle with is like blatant descriptive graphic torture in film. I agree. For some reason in books I can handle. It a lot better but it makes under the mountain. Look. Tame like nothing?

1:17:46 Yeah. So good to know. OK, let me know I'll. Let you know and. Then the other thing I'm reading. I'll wait for the next episode to talk. OK, what are you reading? It picked up one dark window, but then I got. Really really into my Akatar reread. So I am deep in a court of mist and fury which it's just so good.

1:18:06 It's I mean I read it like 4 Times Now because I I just like never reread the first one. I always went straight to the second one. Like I am falling in love with this man all over again. I know, I know, like as Ferah. Obviously, but like, yeah. So that's where I am and so good. It's so good. It's so good. I really I don't want to say.

1:18:26 More about it because I don't want to spoil it for people, but I did text you. I said meant to be reading like this very closely this time instead. Falling in love again. Yeah, a court of arms and roses I was. Rereading and was picking up so much. I pick up some things in a Court of Mr. Fury, but mostly I'm just like swoon.

1:18:41 Like this book is just swoon. But I do think that's what the book is. I do. Think that's I think Mr. Fury is a romance and then Wings and Bruin is when we're going to get into more of the back to the plot. Yeah, I agree. Agree. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. All right, guys. Thanks for listening we. Know this was kind of AI think this was a little bit of a messy one but it was fun we'll see how it turns out in editing if you're still listening.

1:19:06 To us yap about these books six months later, thanks for sticking with us. Yeah, thanks for sticking with us, Dragon through the details, Pod. On basically anything you could think of, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, we've got a Discord. If you go to any of those socials and click the link in our bio, you will find them.

1:19:20 You will find us. We're fun, you should follow. I told you this, but I think it's worth shouting it out. I. Was I think I googled like Zaden and Dharna? Is there a bond between Zaden and Dharna? So I'm hoping to find some crazy Reddit thread for someone else who had like done the research for this and gone down this rabbit hole and instead I found our TikTok page. I was like no, this doesn't help me. Yeah.

1:19:42 Or I see it was really good right now. Yeah, SEO. Is optimized all right? See you next week. Love you, bye. Love you. Bye.