Jim Walmsley Heads To China + Will Backyard Ultras Outgrow UTMB? (Singletrack News)

0:00 Welcome back or welcome to the Single Track Podcast. I'm your host, Finn Milliansen, and this is another edition of Single Track News, joined by Brad Hornig to co-host. We talk about some of the big news from the old trunning scene over in China, the latest updates from Big's Backyard and the World Team Championships there, the latest expansion event for the World Trail Majors, a new registration platform from the teams at Dead Reckoning Labs and Air Viper Running, and race results from Diagonal DeFu and Tompli.

0:28 Before we get started, a few things first, registration is now open for the 2027 Buffalo Run, which is taking place next March 13th, 2027. We've got 25K, 50K, and 50 mile race options and early bird pricing through the end of this week. Go check it all out at massifrunning.com. That's M-A-S-S-I-F-Running.com.

0:49 Also, thanks to Johngy, the official apparel partner of the show. Two things here. First, it's finally getting colder here in Salt Lake, at least in the early mornings and evenings. I'm starting to turn to warmer layers on my runs, specifically their merino, repeat, long sleeve, and rover merino hoodie.

1:05 Check out both pieces at jongy.com forward slash singletrack and let them know that we sent you at checkout. The other piece here is we have a film coming out with them. They supported a video of our four-day fast pack of the Whites 100 route in New Hampshire earlier this summer. That film comes out on the Single Track YouTube channel later this week.

1:22 Stay tuned. Finally, thanks to Raid Research, the official equipment partner of the show. Yes, I am in full-on training mode for the California International Marathon in early December, but I'm still taking Raid with me on many of my runs, specifically their LF2L belt. It has really come in handy on my weekend long runs where I need to carry all of my nutrition for two and a half to three hour stretches, but I also want to do so comfortably.

1:49 And this belt has 1,150 milliliters of hydration carrying capacity. I can fit a bunch of gels in there too, all with no bounce, without feeling like I'm overloaded. I get the miles in at the paces that I need. It's pretty awesome. Go check it out at raidresearch.com. And if you purchase anything, let them know that we sent you.

2:07 First up here, uh, I did not think that in 2026 we would be talking about Saigu Trail over in China, but we are because they have been able to successfully recruit some powerhouse household names from the North American scene, just to name a few. Jim Walmsley, Courtney DeWalter, headlining the 100K and 50K races, at least from the North American contingent.

2:30 Lots to talk about here. But Brett, top line for you, your reactions when you heard this news.

2:35 Yeah, so I guess this is kind of a little bit of a continuation from the emergent storyline from your guys' news last week, where it was just like, where's Jim going to race? Where's Courtney going to race? They both put out their little teaser posts. Jim had like three of them. I mean, I was surprised because I mostly because it was I I kind of ran out of ideas for Jim.

3:01 For Courtney, it seemed way more open-ended. I really thought for both of them, it was going to be Ultra Trail Cape Town. Um, you know, the the one thing that argues against that in one of Jim's Instagram posts was that he said he was excited to pin a bib on in October. Cape Town's in November. I figured maybe he was just gonna have another post being like, I lied, it's actually a race in November, because you can you could do whatever you want when you announce a race.

3:30 But um, and that made sense to me because it seemed like, oh, we'll scout out the area for Worlds 2027. Um so that that seemed like the natural choice. Uh and and it same with same with Courtney. It's like, yo, Courtney's gonna go scout out Cape Town. Um, but then it got announced that it was the Saigu Trail race in China, which looks like it's it's a pretty large event.

3:57 Um it a race I admittedly had never heard of until this announcement. And then I Googled it and I started looking about the race. I went to their YouTube page and watched all three of their videos, which were like race highlights. Um and now I'm a little bit excited for Jim and Courtney to be lining up at this race.

4:20 What do you think of the anime banner on their homepage?

4:24 I I I asked my AI assistant if this was an AI website, and and Jim and I said no. Um the the website was pretty sparse in terms of information. Like the main landing page is a picture and then a spot to register and a spot for elites to register. And then there were links for the GPX files, which uh yeah, I didn't even see any course information, but that got me to download the GPX file and upload it to Strava.

4:56 Then it started to make more sense, at least for Jim, doing this 105K. Because according to Strava, this 105k is 25,000 feet of climbing.

5:09 Well, I mean, that's what, five or six more than CCC? Yeah, that's beefy.

5:15 Like it is. That is a steep, rugged 100K. And the course is one loop. It's actually a super cool course. So just looking at the profile of it and like starting in a I mean, for China, it's a small, I don't even think they call it a city, like a town, but it's a large city. And then you just go out into the mountains and the trail looks super dynamic, really rugged at times, really fast at other times, and to have 25,000 feet of climb.

5:48 I'm like, oh, this is totally a a a gym course for the era of running that Jim is in. Because it time-wise, it might run like a fast hundred-miler, but it'll feel like a, you know, more rugged mountainous course, but not take the toll on your body that that level of hundred-mile course takes. So I was like, oh, that makes way more sense than we we thought you'd run Javelina.

6:14 It's like, well, that would be cool, but that doesn't make any sense for like him living in France. All those pictures of him hiking in the mountains. Tom Blier, he'd already w run and won before. And he doesn't do a lot of repeat races outside of like the big ones. So yeah, it's like, okay. And and this race has been like one of the most competitive Asian races.

6:36 So I I expect that he won't be able to win this race easily.

6:44 So here's a fun hypothetical. I scrolled down to the bottom of the homepage because I was trying to connect the dots for how some of these athletes were showing up here at the end of the season. And the it looks like Solomon is the presenting sponsor and Sunto is one of the primary supporting sponsors.

7:00 Okay, that like I can see it, it makes logical sense how they could recruit Courtney. Although, as we were talking about offline, Courtney just announced at Kona a few days ago via Outside Mag that she's gonna be racing CIM in early December and that her goal her goal is to compete with the front of the women's pack.

7:19 So that to me, I mean, again, Courtney's capable of so much. So I'm I'm talking as a mere mortal over here, but I'm like, Hunt, I wonder if that if she still goes to Saigu with that goal at the forefront. I'm not sure. But, anyways, it makes sense to me why why Courtney would show up here. But can we try to hash out how Jim gets to the start line?

7:37 Like, what what is the appearance fee he's getting? Like what how does this factor into his career? Like you said, like there are other races like Cape Town that we can kind of logic out. What do you suspect is is the move here?

7:48 I mean, when you look at their post where they announced all the elite, like the international elites that are coming to the race, you know, it was like Courtney, Tovey, was it Remy was going? Yeah, Jim. It's like okay. They they're shelling out they got bags, like we're we're doing like I mean, I'm totally speculating here, but like we're doing appearance fees.

8:14 Like we're there's there's gotta be pretty heavy incentives to come do this race. And maybe maybe that wouldn't have been enough. But then when you look at the race and the course and the profile, and you're like, oh, this course is actually pretty cool. Yeah, sure. Definitely now I'll do that. Because before I had dove into the course and actually looking at it, I had always wondered if in our sport of professional like ultra running, can an like incentivized like appearance fee be enough for someone to go to a race and race it all out?

8:56 Because we've always kind of talked about how like if you're gonna race a hundred miler, like you gotta really want it to go put yourself through that. Whereas like appearance fee for a road marathon, track race, at the end of the day, like they're all the same. You know, you're it's a flat course, you're racing a clock.

9:17 Sure, the dynamics of the race might change a little bit, but ultimately like it seems easier to wrap your head around like flying around the world to go race a marathon. Whereas like if you're gonna spend what, I don't know, let's just call it 15 hours racing, can money alone keep you motivated to win it for f for like 15 or more hours?

9:44 I feel like the big, and I'm I'm not necessarily saying these are these would be my incentives if I was somehow in that position, I would never be, but uh how important is it to do well here to stay eligible for future or to be at top of mind among other race directors for future appearance fee opportunities across the circuit?

10:04 I'm sure there's like a shelf life for that where like how many of these could I go to and either bomb out of or, you know, just kind of phone it in and do it before they're like, okay, we're gonna pay someone else. But, you know, I imagine for Jim, his expectation is to win it and not just go and like, you know, walk around in the woods and slap hands.

10:30 Um Courtney running CIM in December with the intent of like being very competitive. That's that's interesting because that definitely seems different, you know, with Solomon being the title sponsor. You know, and and Tove also being in the race. It doesn't seem like it it seems like Tovey's probably going to win by a lot.

10:54 Also makes sense, Tovey's going Tovey's also a Solomon athlete, right? Yes.

10:58 Okay. So they all make sense. Remy makes sense, Tovey makes sense, Courtney makes sense, at least with the sponsor relationship.

11:04 And it makes sense that Courtney would be doing the 50k instead of the 100k because the 50k profile is easier. The 50k is 10,000 feet of climbing. So I mean, Courtney could still top 10 in that race and probably treat it more as a long run. To like not, you know, to, you know, be there and exist and it still seemed to be pretty competitive without, you know, totally sacrificing CIM.

11:33 That's my that's my theory.

11:36 So I I talked with a few anonymous pros across four or five different major brands in the last week trying to get their sense of how this makes sense. And actually, unanimously, the response back was Jim's move is not surprising at all. Uh all the money is in China or a lot of it. It's an absolutely massive market.

11:59 And in fact, all of these brands want their runners going there. So then I was like, huh, okay, that's really interesting. Like times are changing. And I, you know, I put this in our notes. Like another open question to me is if that is the case, and if the future is here, but it's not you know fully distributed yet, what like is it an overreaction or an underreaction that by the end of the decade we are going to see an event on the China landscape that feels mandatory for the pros to show up at uniformly like a Western or a UTMB?

12:34 What's your what are your thoughts there?

12:36 I think I I I could totally see that happening. What needs to happen though? Well, I guess that was my question. What needs to happen for that race to exist in the amongst the stratosphere of UTMB, you know, we'll just say like Western states, Diagonal Dufo, et cetera. Like they have to be able to replicate their success of bringing in elite international fields every year.

13:04 The other thing that the race needs to do is put on an experience for the professional field that makes them leaving the race telling people that it was amazing. Because if they all finish the race and then it goes quiet, it it wasn't good. It was not a good experience. But like we hear a a lot of pro runners talking about like UTMB and Chamonix fondly because as a professional runner, the experience for it is pretty cool.

13:33 You know, and there's other races, like it sounds like as a professional runner, Ultra Trail Cape Town is pretty cool. Like Diagonal to Food. Sounds like that's another one that's pretty cool at year after year. So there has to be a a level of, I guess, professionalism from the race to create a package for the elite field that the elites want to come to.

13:59 You know, I think I do feel like that is something that's been kind of missing for a race like Run Rabbit. Like they have the money, but I don't I don't hear anything about like really anything else outside of that. So yeah, I think a race there could totally be a race in China that turns into one of the like one of the majors.

14:24 Um another question that I wrote down about that is then like we already talk, we talk about this like every other episode, how there's too many races.

14:33 Yeah.

14:34 So which race gets cut, which race gets relegated to random ballers?

14:42 Well, I'll throw I'll throw this back first, but I I first of all, this is a great prompt. But my first thought is what if nothing gets cut? What if sort of this last quarter of the year has always represented optionality to some degree for all elite athletes? And instead of having optionality after UTMB, no, there is just this like built-in you have to do this in like November, December type thing.

15:05 It is they're like maybe there was like a barely a bit of room for a third event and like it could go right around where Saigo is.

15:12 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in a way, it seems like we've always been searching for that North Face 50 mile replacement from from like an American fan. Um of course I would love for it to be the North Phase 50 mile. Uh but yeah, maybe, maybe Saigo 50K and 105K, maybe that's a potential answer.

15:34 I will say for all of our fans that were with us or that were also, you know, following the sport in the late 2010s, I believe one of the greatest what if questions in the history of our sport is what if Jim had done the North Face 50? That was a race he never did. Tim Freyricks did it and he knocked it out of the park.

15:51 So that was the that was the Coconino Cowboy that represented. But what if Jim had done that race?

15:58 Yeah, I mean, I think we would it we'd be talking about a forever course record. Because I imagine he would have done it. I I assume he he probably would have won, and he probably would have done it faster than anyone else.

16:12 A few other footnotes here. I have you checked out Jim Walmsley's Strava recently. No. Go go while I'm saying this, while I'm saying this, go search it right now. Okay. So this is for the audience while Brett is typing it up. Jim Walmsley in the last two weeks has posted on Strava three times, three final long runs for this Saigu uh event.

16:35 The last long run he posts is on October 15th announcing this. This is the first time Jim has posted publicly on this Strava account since back in the fall of 2024. Him and Jess were doing Ian Boswell's ride up in Vermont there visiting. I think that at the time they were even contemplating does living on the east coast of the US make sense for various reasons.

17:00 So it's been two years since Jim posted on his public Strava account. Dude, what huh? So he does train.

17:11 I mean, these are these are three six to eight hour Mongo days. I know. I love how he just throws up a uh September 28th, 29th back-to-back long run day, and they're both eight hours. Like he did two days, 16 hours, 80 miles, 29,000 feet of climbing. Oh man, I would love to see I would love to see a full week of gym training.

17:40 But I guess I guess most people would. Um do you think do you think that was his choice to publicize like three runs or was Strava like, hey, you're gonna lose your pro badge? Hey, are you still there?

18:01 I I'm I'm probably gonna do a no comment there, but I I thought you were gonna say was Saigu his choice. And I mean, I think it's really interesting that going back to the interview that he did with Dylan in Chamony around UTMB, he said that his plan for 2027 did not involve Western or UTMB. So this feels like the beginning of what has to be a very unique looking schedule next year, I would imagine.

18:30 Unorthodox. Unorthodox, at least in the last five years of Jim.

18:34 Yeah, we might have to do an entire episode on like let's try and create Jim's season, see like how close we can get.

18:42 Very last thing here, I promise. Shout out to Nick Cornell who found this. But if you go to their elite athletes entrance page on the Saigo site, this feels unpro this feels uh I don't know who else does this anyone, but Saigo will pay for your for three weeks of stay in the area in the lead up to the race.

18:58 See, like that's what I'm talking about in terms of creating a package for the elite field that they will tell their friends about. Amazing.

19:11 So yeah. Next up here, Biggs Backyard Ultra and the World Team Championships in Backyard happening concurrently. Uh started a few days ago, 7 a.m. Central Time. Teams of 15 collecting loops for their country across the world. So the American team is competing on the Biggs backyard course. At the start of this, there were 67 other national teams competing across the world simultaneously, which is a really, really interesting format.

19:39 I mean, first question for you, Brett. Have you been following this at all?

19:44 Yes. I I waited a few days to kind of check in because this is one of those races that's a little bit of a slow burn at the start, you know. Like I'm not and and maybe, maybe you correct me, but like, was there any major drama that happened in the first like 24 to 36 hours?

20:01 I would say a couple things. And it was more just, I think, creating a really entertaining context. So there was some back and forth, for example, between the American team and the Australian team, who are two of the top contenders. Mark Dowdle on the American team was sort of throwing barbs at the Australians for having a uh a possibly easier course.

20:22 You sent me the reel about the guy who responded back, you know? Oh yeah.

20:28 But okay, what was this thing? I saw a thing come through the other day on Instagram about the US team changing their course.

20:37 So I think at Biggs, there are there are actually two courses that exist in the same venue. There's a daytime course and a nighttime course. And I think it's due to lack of infrastructure for I don't know. Actually, I don't want to I don't want to presume anything, but for whatever reason, historically, there's been a daytime course which is on trails, and I think a nighttime course that's on the road, someone fact-checked me out there.

20:56 Yeah, that's what I that to my knowledge, that's what I thought too. And I believe that, and I I don't know the legality here, but the American team uh in order to I I think they they saw the road course as being easier, and maybe a few of their teammates among the 15 were struggling and they needed to collect as many laps as possible.

21:14 So they did a pivot, a certain amount of the way in to do some some laps on the the road course to yeah, to just act in like sort of like a team team mindset.

21:24 Okay, because that kind of undoes all the trash talk about Australia's course being easier when you're like, oh crap, some of our people are struggling a bit. We got to switch to our easy course during the day. I will say though, okay, so this team format, I always kind of forget how it works, and then I get reminded every year like what's going on.

21:46 And this team, this is one of the coolest team formats for running that exists. And like, this is one of the coolest world championships that exist. And It it it goes back to what we have been saying for years now. I can't believe we were catching some strays about like not talking about backyard ultras on the pod.

22:07 But we we asked for it to be in the Olympics. I was saying like this this is the ultra endurance event that's gonna be linked. Like you're telling me like a team, a team that's representing a country, and then you have to collectively win as a team. I mean, like all the USA cares about during the Olympics is collectively how many medals we have against the other countries.

22:28 That is that's this, that's this entire race. Like that's how it works. Um, I also think that just the concept of you really only being as strong as your second best person is so fascinating. Um it's kind of like the super domestique scenario in cycling where like like Tade Pagaccha is a really good cyclist, but then what's absolutely elevated him this last few years is actually having a couple teammates that can keep up with him.

23:00 And it's like like this is similar to that as well. Um I I love the website and just the data across it. I mean, so as we're recording this right now, there's 19 nations of the 67 that are still going. There's different classifications for some of the different countries. Um, you have like your Super Six and your AAA, your double A, and um predictions for about how each country is gonna do.

23:28 And we can now see, so uh as I was writing out my notes for this episode a couple hours ago, it was uh yard 57. Uh Australia overtook Japan. And that was so now Australia is in the lead, and they are uh at least in the next few hours, they are about to start pulling away because they have 14 people still going.

23:54 The next best is Belgium with 11, and then the US with 10. So, like that alone right there is you're getting, let's see, we're at lap 59. So if they get three more, they're getting like a hundred, what are they gonna get 180 more points? Or do you just get one point? No, that would be an exponential growth.

24:14 So like they're each getting more points, like three more points every single lap.

24:19 Really quickly, I want to interject and just explain to the audience the concept of seeding on these teams. So you'll see as you follow the coverage, like number six runner on the US team, number one runner, number 15 runner, there's 15 on each team, individual seeds on the teams. Each athlete's given a ranking one to 15.

24:37 It's determined largely by that person's highest or best backyard ultra distance, like yards completed in a previous event. And a lot of this actually feels very much like March Madness on the basketball front, where we're seeing some of these higher seeds on teams actually like have bad days and get eliminated.

24:54 Like I think the number four guy maybe on the US or Australia just tapped out. Yeah, US slap 56. Yeah. Uh he the number four guy just fell. So, but there's still like the the number 12 seed is still there, which is so cool.

25:07 You know, it's like like uh who are these um Well you still got US is 12, 13, 14, and 15 are still going.

25:15 So cool, you know? So like anyone can have a day out there.

25:18 Yeah. And I really like you can like if you click a country, you can see who they are, their seed, and how they qualified. And uh the other thing that I really like is the color coding map that shows how fast or slow they did particular laps or a lap that they did not finish. I mean, they're on F 59, and it's so interesting, it totally coincides with a like a 24-hour day-night cycle, whereas like the team collectively slowed down right around 25 to 30, and then they all sped up.

25:53 I think when probably started getting light out. And yeah, it's it's really cool to see these these trends um and how runners can like kind of ebb and flow through this race. So yeah, I'm uh I'm invested in this and I'm just gonna be watching the like the ticker until until it's over.

26:17 Precision fuel and hydration is the official nutrition partner of the show. And with a race on the near horizon, I am back to tinkering with their free nutrition planner. In this case, I am getting ready for CIM in early December. With this planner, I put in some basic training information about myself as well as time goals for the race, sweat rate, sweat comp numbers, and it gives me an hour by hour plan starting ahead of the race for fueling and hydration.

26:41 It's pretty awesome. Go check it out at precisionhydration.com. If you end up buying any product while you're there, feel free to use code single track at checkout for 15% off your next order. Using our code helps the show a ton. Also, thanks to Norda, the official footwear partner of the show. Go check out their fall 26 collection of new colorways.

27:00 I think the almond colored 01A looks pretty awesome. So does the Zephyr colored 05. Go check it all out at NordaRun.com. Makers of the best trail running shoes in the business. One giant leap for trailkind, as they like to say. I have a few other things to talk about here just around uh the popularity of it and its breakthrough into a general audience.

27:23 You know a sport is starting to get popular when the celebrities want to associate with it. So Mark Dowdle, who's one of the, I think he might be the one or the two seed for the US. Maybe is he the one? I think he's the one. No, Harvey Lewis was the one. Harvey Lewis is the one. Okay. Well, Mark is one of the top seeds on the team.

27:41 Theo Vaughn, he's the three. Theo Vaughn, famous comedian, cruise him for a few laps.

27:48 Yeah, I know. I Jeff Colt sent that to us, and I'm looking at it, and I was I didn't see uh Theo Vaughn tagged in it, but I'm watching, I'm like, is that the funny guy just out there sitting in the tent, like feeding Mark Dowdle food? I was like, man, that's a that's the big times.

28:09 It's it's massive. And uh Theo has uh has a podcast called This Past Weekend, and the YouTube version of it, they have an interview with Mark that went live a month ago. It already has 682,000 views. So that's 682,000 people that are being exposed to a version of Ultra Trail Running.

28:29 Yeah, and I think like Backyard Ultra is one of the perfect types of running that can transcend normal running because it's so it's so different and there's so much more extreme to it. Um, we've talked about this before. Like marathon, like winning a marathon, winning Western states, even winning UTMB, you're pretty much doing that in like a calendar day.

28:56 Whereas like you can't win a backyard ultra in a calendar day. Like you can't win Coca-Dona in a calendar day. Like even the fastest person that can't do it in 24 hours. Well, it's like impossible to win a backyard ultra in 24 hours. That's I mean, that's yeah, that's but so then it adds this element of hunger games, uh, survival sort of thing.

29:20 And then it it really makes it seem like and it's true, like these people are doing something that is totally out of the realm of what I can even comprehend. Like even as someone who's run a lot, like I'm so far removed from what it would take to be successful at a backyard ultra that it's it's fascinating to me, like outside of it being running.

29:49 Like the whole concept of it is fascinating. Like if if this existed in something else that wasn't a running loop, I would be fascinated by it.

30:01 I think it's the perfect version of ultra running for the social media age because they're going slow enough so that the top athletes can also safely create and upload content simultaneously.

30:14 And you get an update every hour no matter what. Yes. Like it's a perfect race to consume on Instagram. Yeah. It would be the per it's if I could have text or app like push notifications from this website, just letting me know every single time like a team changes spots, or if somebody from uh one of the top six or top ten countries gets eliminated, just dude, just light me up with those notifications.

30:48 Give me that dopamine hit. Like that would be fantastic.

30:53 Last thing here. I thought this could this would be a fun, and I'd love your reaction here. So I thought it would be fun to compare a trail running event institution to some of these up-and-coming backyard races in terms of core unique live stream viewership and total ecosystem reach. So for traditional, I got UTMB, and I'm including the entire UTMB World Series final, so OCC, CCC, UTMB, and the numbers.

31:17 And by the way, I will, I think I got these right, but I'll try to fact-check these the next week and we can update them next week. So the first metric here is core live stream unique viewership. Last year, the the UTMB World Series finals, I believe, achieved 2.8 million uniques. The last Soul Ultra, which is a backyard event, was 1.1 million uniques.

31:38 And the Go One More Ultra by Nick Bear was about 500,000 uniques. So that's just core unique live stream viewership. Total ecosystem reach. That includes the players and the fans, et cetera, contributing related social media to it. UTMB did about 23 million. Go One More actually eclipsed Last Soul and did 12.5 million, and Last Soul did 8 million.

32:01 So they're both still trailing the UTMB World Series files, but these are young events. They're one and three years old. UTMB is a 20-plus year media event institution, and they're kind of knocking at the door.

32:16 Yeah, I mean, I I'm sure there's a an amount of overlap in terms of fan viewership, but they're so different. Like you're gonna get two totally different crowds of people watching one and watching the other. Um yeah, and I don't know. I'm curious if like yeah, it's I mean, the just the format of Backyard is interesting enough where it it might, I mean, I could totally see it gaining more viewership than your standard running race.

32:57 I I don't know. It seems like you're probably gonna max out at whatever most of these running races max out at, because you know, like who watches running races that's not a runner?

33:09 And again, before we go to the next thing here, I want I feel confident about those unique viewers for a live stream, but actually those numbers in the millions feel low for all of them. Like I would I would assume that UTMB go one more and last soul did like billions in impressions and views. So we'll come back.

33:31 I'll come back next week with updated embers, but I do believe that sort of like the general message here of how closely they're trailing each other is correct. But I I do feel good about those YouTube live stream views, but I yeah, we'll see about the ecosystem. But still it's the message here is it's impressive how quickly the backyards have resonated.

33:49 Yeah, and I mean one thing that's always come out of all of these backyards, especially like the really epic years, is just the storylines that they they're you know, they're like a tidal wave where they start out really slow and you don't there's not really much there at first, but then it keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and it's like massive and it's unpredictable.

34:10 Whereas UTMB Western states, we can basically write out the whole hour by hour roadmap of the race. We just don't know exactly which names are gonna be there. But for even like Biggs, it's still just like you have no idea. I mean, it's like watching any of the first four Rocky movies, I would say, we're like, this is just like except except you don't know how many rounds it's gonna go.

34:45 Okay, one last thing I promised. There's a guy on the German team, his name's Kim Gottwald, and he was the guy who co-won the Go One More Ultra back in 25. And the point here is in a one-year span, how he pivoted that newfound fame into this economic engine of an events business. So the very next year he co-founds this Last Soul Ultra, which is wild.

35:07 It just totally blows up. It's now competing nearly with UTMB and and whatnot. And I think he's competing for the German team at this uh at this Nash or this international championship. And he also started a brand called Rapid, which is an apparel brand, and they are the live stream sponsor for this Biggs thing.

35:24 So he takes like just the the the speed to market with all of his business ideas that comes off of just his uh his overnight rise to fame at Go One More.

35:35 Yeah, that that is incredible. Um, just like the launch pad that that got created there. Uh what did you say his name was?

35:42 Kim Gottwald. So uh Kim K-I-M Gottwald G-O-T-T-W-A-L-D.

35:49 He's on the German team?

35:51 I think he's a German runner, yeah.

35:53 I don't see his name. Germany is a country right now. They're kind of hurting a little bit. I'm I haven't clicked to them, but they're one and two are already out. They've only got oh, they've only got three people left.

36:12 Anyways, just I I just I just find this whole space fascinating. And I like I I know yeah, I going back to your original point, uh, there's been some stuff out there on the internet criticizing our lack of coverage for it. I mean, yeah, we definitely have missed some stuff. We're mostly focused on the UTMB Western states worlds.

36:31 But even though I may never do one of these backyards and we may never cover it in depth, I still find it fascinating. And I still, like we said many years ago at this point, we want to see backyard in the Olympics, right? It's like the perfect ambient Olympic event start to finish.

36:46 Totally. And I've said it before, I'll say it again, I love people racing people. And this is that. Also, I just found another thing on this website that is really cool. It's called the time machine. It's uh it's just a scrollable spot where you can just immediately scroll back to any of the yards and and it takes a snapshot of where the standings were at that point.

37:08 So like you can go to yard, you know, three and see who is the fastest, who is the slowest. You know, you can see exactly like how everything changed. Um looks like, yeah. The US was in the lead. They were tied for the lead at uh yard 36. But um, yeah, I'm I'm I'm curious how long this is gonna go for.

37:35 Will this will this make it to the next single track news?

37:40 Five more days. I my guess, so we're recording this Monday evening. I'm gonna guess that this goes until I think we're gonna go to Thursday night, Friday morning.

37:52 Thursday night, Friday morning, yeah.

37:54 Thursday night Friday. I think it's gonna, I think it's gonna get pretty extreme. There are some there are some really talented minds on those starting lines. Uh next up here, we'll quickly go through some results. Diagonal DeFu and Tom Plee. Hugo Deck and Ruth Croft win Diagonal DeFu. Alyssa Clark, friend contributor to the show, second place, following up a podium performance at TDS back in late August.

38:16 An incredible, incredible second half of the year. Thoughts on Diagonal DeFu?

38:21 That's a baller back-to-back set of races. Like not too far apart. No, I mean we're talking six, seven weeks. I mean, she's probably the only person who did like who's competitive at Diagonal Defu who did one of the longer ones, right? So that's yeah, that's amazing. I mean, that's that's a yeah, that's a really, really, really, really good result.

38:51 I can't wait to hear a little bit more about uh the full breakdown of that race from from Alyssa's point of view. I'm always really curious to hear about um like American experiences out there because it's it's so French.

39:10 And just so far away, so foreign. And I maybe she got there a few days ahead, but it's not like she was really projecting it. So I mean, I to me it falls basically in the on-sighting category, which makes it even more impressive. And I, you know, I believe I actually don't know how long Hugo is out there.

39:27 I I was just following some of Ruth's stuff. Ruth, I think, was out there for a bit, you know, made the pivot after UTMB and really invested in it. Amazingly impressive. And I think this was a longer course too, uh 110 miles. Really impressive. Absolutely.

39:41 Uh yeah, bummer, bummer luck for Tom.

39:46 Yeah, I mean, thoughts there. We've got uh just tough here in general, transgrain canary DNF, the hard rock DNF, injured midway through this event in multiple ways, does gut it out, felt like it was important to complete the journey, which uh I think in this age we feel great about as commentators, meeting people.

40:04 But thoughts on this year when you know we're only 13 months removed from uh I mean uh an all-time performance victory at UTMB?

40:15 It's so hard to stay at that level like for any amount of time. I think that's really just what it is. I mean, when you only get so many opportunities in a year to race, you know, it's it's not, you know, it's not unsurprising to see two or three subpar races in a row. Unfortunately, that just happens to be an entire year when you're thinking about you know, two or three subpar races as an ultra runner.

40:49 You're like, well, damn, that was that was an entire year that just got cooked. But um yeah, I mean, I don't think it's really much that I would read into other than it's like that's just crappy luck. I mean, it's it's so hard to win these big races. It it just goes to show how many things have to go right on race day to win these big races.

41:13 That's really what it is.

41:17 You know, as the sport professionalizes, and this this is beyond Tom, it's more just for people who are like in their mid-30s and above that have been in the sport for a bit. Again, I know there's outliers for people like uh Ludo who are still world beaters, but I wonder as the sport professionalizes and as we see more people who are just straight up younger and like in their mid-20s going straight to these distances, like the people like Louis Saun, you know, like how how much in the back of their minds is just like mortality and just the fact of being, you know, technically past your biological prime and trying to compete against these guys who are like redefining, training, doing crazy stuff,

41:59 probably have more in the tank, more matches to burn. Like, how much of a fear is it like aging out in the sport? And again, this is this is not about Tom. This is this is something I've talked about a bunch. I'm just genuinely fascinated in the mindset of a runner who Brett is like our age and beyond, because you and I are in our mid-30s now.

42:16 Speaking like specifically to a race that's say in that Dagonal Dufu UTMB hard rock type length, I still am not really sure what the prime age is. And I don't think the sport knows. Like I they like the 1500 meters, it's 27 years old. The 100 meter dash, it's 21 years old. There's a lot of data points just surrounding like lifetime personal best, championship medals, et cetera.

42:44 Um on the distance side of things, even like 1500, 5K, 10k, it's getting younger because people are realizing that you can you can tap and you can increase that endurance, like that aerobic strength at a younger age than than kind of we realized, and that you're just not losing that speed. How much does that translate to 20 plus hours?

43:12 Like does that that youthful power matter? I'm still not really sure. And you know, I think we've talked about this before where there's like definitely an overlap of like the mental maturity that comes with some age and the physical prime that comes with a younger age. For those two circles to overlap, uh, when they do, it becomes it's a special thing.

43:37 And I think for a lot of runners, those circles don't overlap. So, so then it kind of comes down to like, yeah, who could be in their mid to late 20s and race with the maturity of a 35 to 40, 45 year old seasoned ultrarunner? Can they do that? So that's why I'm I still have hope for for the the the 30.

44:00 35 plus age group, because I think there's still a little bit more to it than just physical fitness for these really long ones. Kind of like going back to like, can can just a paycheck motivate someone to go race a hundred miles through the mountains?

44:19 I for me, the the the the quote that resonates here is from a podcast that Killian did. It was with Jack Burke earlier in this year, where his I would say one of his and not we talked about it before, but one of his strongest takes of the episode is that if you're in the age window of 18 to I think it was 24 years old, as long as you get enough sleep and you eat enough, he fillian believes it's impossible to overtrain.

44:43 Yeah, but like, and and physically that might be true, but mentally can can that be uh can can someone that age have the mental capacity, like the discipline, the fire to do that and do it correctly. I don't know if I've ever seen that. Um, I think it was last week in your guys' news. You were talking about um Chicago Marathon and Vinny Maori and Yes.

45:09 Oh, yeah. What you what do you think there? What are your thoughts on Vinny? I was screaming into the air, dude, this guy is 2016-2017 Jim Walmsley. And then I even in uh in our our internet friend group, I I put Vinny is fit enough to break the American record at Chicago. He will probably run kind of like an idiot and blow himself up to like a respectable time because physically he's there, mentally he's not yet from a from a race experience standpoint.

45:43 And that is exactly what happened. He was bouncing all around the pace groups, he took off at 15 miles, he had like 45 seconds on the next Americans, and then his hamstrings started to go. And and that has nothing to do with his fitness. It was just because he just kept lighting those matches on fire all over the place.

46:01 He didn't just chill for a while. And, you know, the the racing parallels were there with early, early career gym, the training parallels are there as well, where it's like this dude's like not afraid to let his career be two or three years if it means winning something big. Um so where where was I going with that?

46:22 Um yeah, like kind of going back to your like 35, like will he get the the the race maturity from a mental standpoint soon enough where like the physical part is still there?

46:40 Right.

46:40 Um Yeah, that and he made the race very exciting. Yeah, well, he led through 35k. He was leading the Americans, he was never leading the race. Leading the Americans leading the Americans through 35k, though, I believe. Yeah, because he was they're running like 445, 450 pace, and then at at 45 minutes in, so it was like 15 miles or something, he was like, this feels way too easy.

47:05 Um I'm gonna stretch my legs out a little bit. And then all of a sudden he was running like, I think he said he was running like 435, which was like two of three pace, and then all of a sudden he was under American record pace. He went through the half and like 62 low. And it was, it was there. And then and then he was like, my hamstrings just started seizing up.

47:26 I don't know why. I'm like, really? We don't know why. Um I also think it's really cool that he's he's self-coached. Um, like that's really unique. Usually people with that much potential and at that point where they're like, I don't want to screw anything up. He's like totally all for experimenting with the workouts and the training.

47:46 And that seems very, very gym parallel as well. So he seems like the road, road gym right now.

47:53 Also, to me, really interesting, like you said, self-coach, he's he's so faithful to the treadmill. So much, uh so much of his running is done on the treadmill in training, and actually not too dissimilar. There's there is a school, there's a prominent school of thought in our sport where coaches are putting their athletes, top athletes, on uphill treadmill for a lot of key sessions.

48:15 You get to control more variables, and it's boring and it sucks. But that's the way the world, the cycling world is gone. I mean, of course, there's still riding outside, you're still racing outside, but like there's a lot of fitness building that happens inside. So a lot of purists out there are like, that sucks.

48:34 And I'm sure that won't be the only way, but I mean it might it might help.

48:40 I don't know about you, but in the hour or so before run, especially the early morning training runs, I find it helpful to have something easy to grab that actually keeps me going and not feeling like I'm operating on empty right off the bat lately. That is why I have been slotting in Kodiak bars to my morning routine.

48:56 I think everyone has that bar that has earned a permanent spot in their glove box of their car. This one is mine. They come with seven grams of protein per serving, and they are made with whole grains and real ingredients. I am partial to their chocolate chip in s'mores flavors. Find them at Kodiakcakes.com or your local grocery store.

49:14 They are the ones with the bear on the box. This episode is also brought to you by Momentous. You can use our discount code with them on all sorts of products. I can highlight anything I want: vitamin D, Ashwagandha, a few other supplements that I take daily. But the one that I want to highlight here is their signature spec creatine.

49:31 Honestly, I have been on and off creatine for the last six months. I was taking it all through the winter. Then I backed off candidly after some weight gain concerns, but I am back on it now doing a bit more research and tuning my diet. I am confident in the ways that it can indirectly help with training adaptations and expediting recovery in endurance contexts.

49:49 I'm now taking about five grams a day. I think this stuff is the best as it screens for PFOS and microplastics and has two to five times tighter heavy metal limits, which is an unparalleled standard amongst creatine supplements on the market. If you want to try Momentous uh signature spec creatine head to live momentous.com forward slash creatine and use code single track checkout for up to 35% off your first order.

50:17 Really quickly, uh just Tom Blee results. Francesco Puppy wins. I think misses the course record by just one second, which is wild. And then Martita Monarchik wins and sets a course record. Trayson Knopp was the top American across genders in fifth place. Shout out to Trayson. Shout out to Francesco, great season.

50:34 Martina, great to see her bounce back from CCC DNS.

50:39 Western States DNF.

50:41 Western States DNF, yeah.

50:43 Yeah. Uh Francesco's so good at a runnable kind of hard trail race. Like he's so good at it. Um yeah, I mean, I watched a couple highlights uh videos and stuff from the race, and it just seemed like he was so in control the whole time. Like even coming in, he's just like love it.

51:08 He could have kicked, he could have kicked and gotten that course record.

51:11 I know. Must must not have been a course record bonus on the contract. But uh he's had it gosh, this is I mean, this I don't know if his season's done now. I thought it was after OCC, but uh he's a really um I mean he's really closing the season out well. And this is one of those seasons that's probably had the highest of highs and the lowest of lows.

51:36 As it was still this year that he crashed hard at Black Canyon and dislocated his shoulder.

51:44 That feels like ancient history. Yeah, that was this year. I know, I I I know, like it's crazy.

51:52 Yeah, so he's just had like what a roller coaster of a year. I mean, speaking of which hasn't been a good week for roller coasters in the if you follow any roller coaster news.

52:04 I I haven't been following.

52:05 No, there's been a there's been a couple.

52:08 One of the big ones don't don't tell me Cedar Point was affected.

52:12 No, I don't think so. But there was there was one big roller coaster where like some dude got like ejected from it, and then uh one of the big ones over in I think Magic Mountain got shut down officially because people were basically coming out and being like, Yeah, this roller coaster gave me CTE. And then all these other people were like, Yeah, it actually kind of gave me brain damage too.

52:33 And then Oh my god.

52:35 They were like, How is and then they were started looking into it and they were like, How did this roll how is this roller coaster still existing? Um I don't know how this stuff gets into my algorithm.

52:49 Man who died after being ejected from Goliath Coaster at Six Flags, Georgia. Jesus.

52:56 I it's yeah, it's insane.

53:01 Why can't it just be like the roller coaster scene in the sandlot when they all take dip and then they go on the roller coaster and then they all get off and throw up and they had a good time?

53:10 That's how it used to be. You know, and being because back in the day the roller coasters were new and now they are old.

53:20 Okay, last better news here before content of the week. And I actually I I have a last minute, I think, great content of the week. But uh really quickly, the World Trail Majors, they have a new member, Innsbruck Alpine Trail has joined. I had the the news here for me, Brett, besides the fact that they joined World Trail Majors, I did not realize how massive an event this is.

53:37 Innsbruck has 10,000 runners at their event annually. I believe there's is it 12 events?

53:44 I think there's that's maybe that's major marathon status.

53:47 Yeah, 12 different races. I was on their website. They have one that's called uh they have a night race that they call business trail, where it's like people who are like working nine to five, finish their day, come over and do it. Uh that's cool. 10,000 runners, which I think is kind of on the scale of like Marathon du Mont Blanc in June in the Chamony Valley.

54:06 So pretty, pretty major. Yeah, I mean, I it's I get the other piece of news for me is just um yeah, it's it's a little it's it's additional, I would say, signs of life from the broader World Trail Majors organization. Uh but your thoughts here.

54:22 Yeah. So my question, what does Innsbruck uh Alpine Trail Run gain from being in the World Trail Majors? Because I I st what are we in? Year three of World Trail Majors? And it seems like the longer that this World Trail Majors continues living, the less I hear about World Trail Majors.

54:43 If I'll just tell you what, like, yeah, I feel like if I'm if I'm if I'm one of the uh people that signed up to join like a marketing focus group, my answer here is that it is a loose association with other beautiful, historical, reputable events across the world. And it's it's just that it's this loose affiliation, it's this recognition that like we're all pretty amazing events.

55:08 We're gonna try to coordinate some, you know, reason to sort of stick around in the circuit competitively, but mostly it's just to have that loose association and to just not really be what like Golden Trail is or the UTMB World Series is.

55:30 Yeah, I wish they just had like a little bit stronger of a mission statement that they could like go by or something. Like, like if you this, if you do this race and it's part of the world trail majors, like you're gonna get the world trail major experience and it's X, Y, and Z. You know what's interesting to me is I just wanted to feel I want it to feel more major.

55:52 Yeah, and I when I think the capa yeah, and I think the tough thing is like I'm looking at the map right now, and one of the things that sticks out to me from these races is these are some of the best race directors in the world. Jamil at Black Canyon, or I know at this point it's Jubilee, so Jubilee at Black Canyon, amazing.

56:09 Stu at Cape Town, the the team at like Joe and the team at GPT in Australia, Steve and at Hong Kong, David at Vietnam Mountain Marathon, James with Centurion, like the lit, these are all like amazing race directors. These are like the people that I think should write the textbooks for how to put on a race.

56:31 And uh Yeah, so like why doesn't it feel like a more cohesive group? Yeah, I don't know. It's probably I would say I would say I would imagine that one of the biggest difficulties for this organization is to uh essentially raise money and to agree on category partners like nutrition and footwear and stuff for all these races without either conflicts or maybe getting those brands to agree to support like globally these events.

57:02 Yeah. That's just a guess.

57:04 And I think there absolutely is a way that there can be a little bit more cohesiveness amongst these races and still feel like independently run events. I think that can exist.

57:17 I want it to be successful. Yeah, and I don't know if it will be. I'm I'm rooting for it. Yeah. Brad, I gotta share my content of the week with you before we go. Do you have one as well?

57:26 I I can't remember if I've shared this with you or not. It's been like saved on my Instagram for months, and I just can't remember if like I looked through the last few episodes of notes and I don't have it written down. Okay, what do you got?

57:40 What do you got? You go first.

57:42 It's a sunglasses company called Engo, Engo E-N-G-O.

57:46 You haven't shared this ENGO.

57:49 Engo Technology. It's basically you're like, if we're going to the Dragon Ball Z route, it's a scouter. Like it's a set of sunglasses that you wear and it gives you a virtual HUD in front of you to display your metrics. Like you can it can let you know if your power level's over 9,000 midway through a race.

58:14 Like this it's I don't know if it's something I would try it out. I mean, so basically it can tell you all the metrics that you would like to know that are being displayed on your watch, except you don't have to look at your watch and instead it's just on a dashboard in front of you all the time. Um, you could see like your power, your pace, your miles.

58:40 I'm sure as it expands, you know, you could probably put in turn-by-turn navigation, elevation profile, like distance to next aid station. Like you could have all of this race information uh in front of your eyeballs, but at the same time not pulling your eyes away from the trail.

59:03 This is really awesome. I don't know.

59:05 They're pretty cool. And they're not that big. They just came out with a titanium-framed one. The thing weighs one ounce. That's how much sunglasses weigh.

59:13 Yeah, this is awesome. I'm looking at their athlete page right now. The only trail runner I recognize is Clementine Joffrey. On Instagram, Killian does not follow them, so that's amazing.

59:24 Okay.

59:24 Nice. Cody Reid follows them though. So we've we have some trail running representation. Okay, I'll have to reach out to Cody. See if he's Kevin and the legend himself, Kevin Tedonio, who led out Coca-Dona for like 80 miles this past year.

59:36 I wonder if he was wearing these glasses and it told him to send it. This is awesome.

59:41 Great find. I mean, I think that's Ango.

59:43 Ango glasses are cool. And they they they're not uh I feel like the meta sunglasses, they look a little bulbous.

59:51 Yeah, they're they're they're bulky. Like I wore them at LA this past year and they they And I know they exist for different reasons.

59:57 Yeah. But like this, this is a compact tech. Like this seems like something you could actually run on. Oh, the other thing, 24-hour battery life. Like it can actually exist for like name a time when you've needed sunglasses for 24 hours straight. Probably never.

1:00:15 So like you're good to go. Well, I think there's different reasons at night, especially if though the lens can work at nighttime.

1:00:21 They do make a photochromic lens version. So I don't know. This thing's this thing seems pretty ultra ready for the for the number geeks out there who want to overthink everything that they're doing.

1:00:34 This is a fantastic another fantastic you never fail, dude. Fantastic find. Yeah, it's always next generation. I love reading the marketing uh copy as well. It's always next generation, you know. It's always born from a simple it's always born from a simple idea.

1:00:48 I do like the that this is a product that exists. You can go buy it right now.

1:00:52 Yeah.

1:00:52 And it it's expensive, but it's not that like you can buy normal sunglasses for way more. I think it's 400 bucks.

1:00:58 Dude, this is so I I would encourage people that are watching, if you go to their about page and scroll down, like they they showcase what the the eye view is. So like there's they show intervals on the track, and there's a guy and he's like, you know, face to the to the uh to the track, and it shows his heart rate beats per minute, uh the time duration of the intervals elapsed, uh his speed.

1:01:23 Really cool. It's it's nifty. I think it's a nifty. Yeah, dude, this is uh this is sick. Okay, awesome. Ango. Ango, if you're listening.

1:01:39 We're getting ready for our uh holiday gift guide.

1:01:42 Yes. Okay, Brett. This uh I believe that this this content of the week, this news, which is fairly breaking. I think it sort of I don't know, I don't know exactly when this platform came about, but we're starting to see news of it spread today. There is a new competitor on the landscape to Ultra Sign Up and Run Sign Up.

1:02:05unknown Really?

1:02:06 For event registration.

1:02:07 Just came out?

1:02:08 The Ara Vipa running team, Jamil Curry, Dead Reckoning Labs have announced RaceGoat, which is their in-house race registration platform. So I don't know anything about this, but about damn time. Go to racegoat.com, like r-a-c-e goat, g-o-a-t.com.

1:02:31 Your next start line. The journey begins here.

1:02:34 I think at this point it looks the the whole platform looks pretty simple, but I think that, and again, I would just encourage people to go check this out, go see some of the news on it. Here's the thing Aerovipa is one of the absolute biggest companies in our sport. They must have, at this point, over 60, 70 races across the US.

1:03:00 And so uh, you know, whether they're partnered with Ultra Signup or Run Sign Up, any of these major registration platforms, they represent an enormous chunk of revenue for these companies. And it looks like this, I and again, I don't know what's going to happen, but to me, this looks like it looks like the makings of them vertically integrating event registration capability into the rest of their business model, which you know, they have their own, they have Air Vipa Artworks, which is their example of them vertically integrating and continuing to do it all.

1:03:42 I'm surprised this hasn't happened earlier. I feel like they could have done this a half a dozen years ago.

1:03:51 Well, I think I think software, again, we're in such a rapidly changing era, but I feel like so-I mean, software was a huge, huge, huge hurdle or uh a big lift for any company to do. And now in this AI era, software has been commoditized, right? Like anyone can just start vibe coding. So I maybe it was just like they're just now finally taking advantage of the era, like they don't need the people power that you used to need and the resources to build these things.

1:04:17 Yeah, maybe that moat is the software moat is gone.

1:04:21 Yeah. Yeah, it just always surprised me because they built their own timing software in-house. I mean, Nick Jamil's brother, he did like all the early timing, and I think all the timing that still exists, and it's incredible. I mean, I love the live.era Vipa page. And I was like, oh, if you could build this, why don't you just build a way to sign up for races?

1:04:39 Um I've always had like my like I hope this is in their roadmap, but like I want more full integration with um like Ultra Running Meg's website, their their race calendar, because it it would I hope it could be more of like a neutral party race calendar, but then like if you integrate that with their timing software or their registration software and that just gets bigger, I mean, is there such a thing as a good monopoly?

1:05:07 Because like that could be a good monopoly.

1:05:12 So I mean, I I don't know what their revenue is across the board on event registrations. Let's just like what what if it's if it's eight figures and the fee for a platform is six percent? I mean, they're overnight bringing at least several hundred thousand dollars worth of cost back into their business.

1:05:34 Yeah, yeah. And then in that case, like, oh, you can absolutely then afford to have your own registration platform.

1:05:43 Really interesting. So that's my this is.

1:05:46 You can make it you can make it how you want. That's like that's very new. That's breaking news. Go uh yeah, go be uh an early mover and sign up for a race on RaceGoat.

1:05:56 Yeah, so racecoat.com. Brett, always great chatting with you. This was an awesome edition of the news. Any any final thoughts before we go?

1:06:03 Glad we kept it to 30 minutes. Yeah. Sorry if you're late for dinner.