Your Wife Needs You to Stop Fixing Things & Start Listening featuring Jake Kastleman

0:02 Welcome to the Dad Edge podcast. The Dad Edge movement creates leaders of men. Leaders of families and leaders of communities. We will not only impact this generation of fathers, but the next generation as well. The kids we are raising will have better chances and odds stacked in their favor because of the amazing example that their fathers emulated for them.

0:24 We are here to change the world. We are here to change relationships. We are here to positively disrupt this generation of fathers. So no man goes to their grave with regret. We disrupt the drift of busyness and replace it with razor focused intention, passion, purpose and direction. We are the dad edge and we're here to change the game.

1:01 Hey, gentlemen, welcome to the Dad Edge podcast. I'm Larry Hagner, your host and founder of this podcast, this show and movement. Welcome here. So glad you're here. I'm going to give you guys something a little bit different today. Many of you guys always hear me on the podcast where I'm interviewing somebody. I don't get a whole lot of airtime, which is totally fine.

1:20 That's actually the whole purpose and point of the podcast is to highlight the guest. However, I was just on a podcast that I thought you guys would be interested in hearing, and it's with a man by the name of Jake Castleman. And basically what he does is he runs a porn recovery platform. But we get into deep, deep things here on marriage and connection with kids and the relationship with ourselves.

1:44 And we do talk a little bit about porn and overcoming vices. And even amidst something on this podcast that quite frankly, I wasn't proud of. But I want you guys to hear it, because if anything that I am is I am probably insanely authentic and very honest, almost sometimes to my detriment in some way, shape or form. But I know that honesty is literally the pathway to to being, to number one, being real, being honest.

2:10 And if we're not honest, then we cannot tread forward. We can't move forward. So I want you guys to hear today's interview where I'm actually featured on another podcast. But I really loved a lot of Jake's questions, and I thought it would really benefit you guys. And that's why I'm actually replaying his show on my show today. So we get in, like I said, really, really deep into marriage.

2:31 We get really, really deep into fatherhood and leadership and overcoming basically just vices. Right. So I want you guys to hear this today. I think you guys will love it. And by the way, I do want to let you know before we get started today. This is the month of November and it is Thanksgiving month. You know, in October what I did was, is I'm giving away all kinds of bonuses.

2:53 And if you missed that, I got lots of emails saying like, hey, I missed the deadline. I want to make sure that I get in. Is this promotion still available? So I'm going to go ahead and run it until the end of the year. So if you're drifting in your marriage in any way, shape or form, only 12% of married couples can actually identify their relationship as working.

3:11 And there's one common denominator there. The man chooses to lead, he chooses to do things different, and he has coincidence over his wife. Through that leadership, she has to be willing to. Don't get me wrong, but I just came out with a brand new book. I'm not releasing this to the public. It's called The Marriage Drift. Stop Chasing and start leading in this very short book.

3:32 It's about 30 pages long. You'll probably get through it in about 25 minutes, but it's going to give you gold. It's divided up into eight short chapters, and it's going to talk to you about some of the behaviors that you might be doing that you might not even realize. I know I was doing a lot of these things, kind of like these nice guy tendencies, and they're really, really disconnecting.

3:51 And they kill attraction, they kill polarity, and we don't even know it. So the first chapter is all about stopping the bleeding. The second chapter is grounded masculine presence. The third chapter is communication without neediness. I'm going to leave it at that. The other five chapters go really, really deep into this topic of creating an environment where you can actually spark attraction.

4:12 Again, you can spark that polarity and you can actually get your marriage back. And this book is actually based on the cohort that I've been leading for the past year, which is Roommates to soulmates. It's an eight week cohort. As I'm sharing this with you today, we're actually right in the middle of our third cohort. But it's been wildly, wildly successful for the guys who have participated in that.

4:33 So I asked myself, how can I create something where men can actually just read about it, and maybe they can start to make some shifts in their own lives? So I'm giving away that book. If you join us in the month of November and December, I'm also going to be giving away a signed copy of The Pursuit of Legendary Fatherhood.

4:49 Make sure you get that it's mailed from me to you. You're also going to get access to my two most popular courses. One is called Creating More Patience in the Heat of Chaos, where no matter what is happening in your life, whether it's work stress, whether it's your kids acting out, or whether it's your marriage, how to become more emotionally regulated and resilient.

5:06 So I'm going to be teaching you six tactical skills in that course also, of course, that it has been wildly successful, which is creating extraordinary measures through elevated connection and intimacy. Where I teach you 12 tactical skills on how to become a how to become a man who is just going to ignite the fires of his marriage. And we don't we don't know how to do these things.

5:29 We're never taught these things. But in that course, you will learn all these things if you guys go to the dad edge.com/join, you will get all those goodies. Or what you do now is listen up and enjoy this podcast with Jake Castleman. Larry what a joy to be here with you, man. As I told you, you know I have a ton of respect for you. I think that the work that you're doing these days, especially these days with so many men feeling isolated, feeling lost, feeling like they're not much matching up as husbands or fathers, you're not knowing how to show up in those roles, the work that you're doing in the authenticity of it, and the vulnerability with which you do it and where you lead from, like a participant in this whole work is.

6:14 It's been a big inspiration to me. And we're going to talk about your book today. But just first off, man, I just want to let you know, like, what you're doing really makes a difference. So I appreciate it. Wow, man. Well I'm humbled. Thank you so much. And back at you. I mean, you're doing some pretty amazing work yourself, so I'm honored that you say that.

6:31 Thanks, man. Thanks. So I want to start by talking about the pursuit of legendary fatherhood. This book that you wrote, I think it came out about. Has it been about a year? Yeah, it's actually been one year. And as you and I are recording right now, the audiobook just came out two days ago. Oh, yeah, I saw that on there.

6:50 In fact, I just looked it up today and I was like, I wonder if he has an audiobook. And you do? Yeah. So that just came out nice. Who's the narrator? Did you do it yourself or did you have somebody do it? That'd be me. Yeah. You have the voice for it. You're, you know, a professional podcaster. So it's like you're used to this game anyway, so why not record it yourself, right?

7:06 You know, it's funny you mentioned that. I appreciate you saying that I. So when I first I wrote a book in 2015. So going back almost 12 years ago or 11 years ago, it was it was called the Dad Edge. You know, I think it was 120 pages. Pretty simple stuff. And I was only podcasting for like a few months.

7:25 And then, I went ahead and I had I hired somebody to narrate that because I just didn't feel up to it. And then, I wrote another book two years ago called Spirit of Fatherhood, which is more of a faith based approach to fatherhood. That book actually came to me. I didn't go get that one. Publisher came to me and asked me if I'd be willing to write a book on that topic, and I was like, wow, I feel like I'd really I'll kick my coverage if I did that.

7:50 But, you know, I prayed on it and did it, and unfortunately, I couldn't read that book because they have this publishing house, has a contract with an entire like an company. So, like, I couldn't read that book. So like, I was like, when this book came out, I was like, I'm reading this book like no one else is going to read it but me.

8:11 And yeah, we just got done with it and just launched it. Well, and I think it adds in so much of your like your own, was you're the one who wrote it. Right? So your emotion is in there when you narrate it. That's probably why I would imagine you really wanted to do, the spirit of fatherhood is that contains your personality in the reading of it.

8:32 So you didn't get to do that. Now you got to do that. I'm actually excited to check that out or like to to listen to it, because it's for people who haven't read The Pursuit of Legendary Fatherhood, I, I have to say this. I've been waiting to say this to you. The first two chapters, chapter two, that story that you tell about your dad and I won't give it away to people, but it hit so hard it honestly, it really disturbed me like that experience that you had.

9:00 And I know disturbed sounds like a negative word, but it it shook me, man. And the way that you tell that story and how real it is, I felt like I was in it. And you that happening to you at such a young, vulnerable age. I was I felt devastated for you. I felt extremely angry with your father. I felt just this deep sadness in it. It impacted me for for days after reading that chapter and for me, you know, kind of going full circuit it circle, it drove home for me. Just what a powerful and profound impact we have on our kids and how important my role is as a father in treating my my sons.

9:43 Well. I just it just really drove that home for me, man. Oh thank you man, I appreciate that. Yeah. Thank you for writing that. Yeah. Was it the story of like, what happened on Christmas Eve and like, that kind of thing? Yeah. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah. That's the one. Yes. I just I just couldn't believe I, I again, reading it, I was really taken aback.

10:05 I was like, there's, there's, there's no way like I know these things happen. I know I've heard these stories, but to but to read that and kind of be in it with you, it's like there's there's no way this happened. This is just it's it's so terrible. So anyway, I know that did good things for you eventually. But but it was it was a powerful writing.

10:24 Like it was a really powerful story to storytelling. That's one of the gifts that you really manifest in this book. I feel like, well, thank you, man. Thank you. I, I don't have many gifts like I can't fix a car. And, you know, I couldn't do a like a quadratic equation probably at this point. But I, you know, the one gift that I do have, people have told me over and over and I'm blessed to hear that is, I can tell a good story.

10:46 So yeah, it's it's a powerful gift, man. It really is. It really is. So, there's a lot I want to talk about today. I really do want to center this episode, you know, for so many of the guys who are listening, they're in a situation where they've just. They've devastated their wife, right? They've broken their trust. Their wife has gone through betrayal trauma.

11:06 They've been caught up in a pornography addiction. Maybe they've been with prostitutes. Maybe they've been in multiple affairs. So these guys are coming from a place where I've really screwed up bad in a way that I can't describe in words. My wife is hurt and I'm trying to rebuild things. And then I also have spouses listening to this who are going through that right now.

11:27 And so I want to focus, like you have so much to say on fatherhood, so much, but you also have so much to say on marriage and husband hood. Right? So that's really where I want to focus is kind of how to rebuild that trust and how to show up as a husband. And you do a great job in the book, being very practical about like one of the things, one of the principles that I loved was, husband hood and fatherhood are skills, right?

11:57 We feeling love is important, but it's a skill that we can build. And I think that's empowering. I want maybe talk about for you why or how how you develop that understanding. And I know you described this in the book, but talk to guys more about how you developed that understanding for yourself of it being a skill. Well, it's kind of by accident, to be honest with you, right?

12:19 Because, it one of my goals is to positively disrupt the perception of fatherhood and being a husband. And what I mean by perception is that just to throw out some some stats for you, right. Everybody knows the divorce rates 50%. People don't know that the 50% that stay together, only one third of those couples can actually identify their relationship as fulfilling working.

12:45 They wouldn't really change much. It's amazing. Right? The other two thirds is stay together and somewhat what we call roommate syndrome, where it's more like everything is logistical. There's not a whole lot of intimacy happening. We're we're somewhat good friends. We coexist, we co-parent. But to some degree, it's like we feel like roommates or there's tension all the way to the point where where there's like, extreme disconnection, like, these are two strangers living in the same house, and usually the only two reasons they don't break up is because of, well, it's two financially devastating or this view, we have to stay together for the kids.

13:17 So if you really kind of do the math, right, like if you're, if you're like, if you're like Russell Crowe, a Beautiful Mind, you're, you're writing all the equations on the window and that kind of thing. What you really come up with is that only 12% of people that walk down the aisle and say, I do can actually identify their relationship is working.

13:34 That's like the same success rate as Bud's for a Navy Seal, right? It's 90% failure. Right? So I, I honestly believe after doing this work for the past 14 years, I started that edge and probably one of my darkest hours, like, you know, happy to share anything about my childhood. But it was it was really abusive, you know, it was plethora of father figures came in and out.

13:56 Didn't know my bio dad. He came back into my life at 12, very unexpectedly, left again. And then I was accidentally ran into him in a coffee shop 21 years ago when I was 30. So like, that's a story of itself. But you know, when I first got married, I had I made three promises to myself because of my background.

14:13 I was like, I'm only going to be married once. I'm going to be a good husband, I'm going to be a good dad, and I'm never going to hit my kids out of anger. Right. So I unfortunately, in the first probably six years, ten years of being married, in six years, being a dad, I broke all those promises. Now, I never did anything really extreme like I never was. The drunk who was abusive, emotionally abusive, never put my hands on my kids. But it was one night when my four year old, who is now 18, almost 19, he, he stepped out of line one night and I just hit the absolute rage button. And this is not to justify that action, but like, I literally had the worst day of my career that day.

14:48 I was in med device sales. That day, I lost one of my biggest surgeons who made up 60% of my territory. We were getting ready to move, so we were getting ready to buy a new house. So we needed money, obviously. And so if I wasn't going to get fired, which I was really fearful of, because you lose a customer like that, you're going to be let go.

15:06 If, if, if worse, worse if the best case scenario, I was going to lose 60% of my income probably over the next 18 months. So that was devastating. And I was like, how am I going to tell my wife this, where if I lose my job? Like I was a mess that day and my son stepped out of line that night just being a four year old, and I just hit a rage and I turned him around.

15:25 I spanked him, and unfortunately I spanked him so hard he hit the ground. Luckily he didn't get hurt. But if you if you read the back of my book, when I was first, first I was going to go through a publisher for this and then fortunately the publisher went bankrupt. But, so I went ahead and self-published it anyway.

15:41 But like, I he's like, hey, you need to put a paragraph on the back of this book. And the paragraph reads, 12 years ago, I became the monster that I swore to protect myself, protect my kids against at all costs. And his response was, you can't put that on the back of the book. I was like, well, it's gone on the back of the book.

15:56 So that's what's on there. And it got worse though. So after I spanked me hit the ground, I immediately felt that shame, that remorse, that guilt. And I was like, what the hell have I just done? And then I went to go pick him up. And as I went to go pick him up, like my hands were open and he literally just closed his eyes and put his hands up in so much fear, like, please don't hurt me again.

16:16 And dude, that freaking crush to me, man. Because in that moment I saw my son. But in that moment I also saw me because like, that was my reality. Like I was terrified of men, you know, when I was that age. And that was the night I actually started that edge. And to get to your question about around skills, that night, I went into my office and I was very emotional, and I was on Facebook of all things, you know, because when you're an adult and you want to distract yourself against, you know, things that you're experiencing or whatever, you just go and look at everybody else's highlight reel.

16:49 And so I saw this button on the left hand corner again, that's like 2012. Social media isn't what it is today. And it said create a page. And I was like, and I just hit that button and I don't know why. I just I'm a very faith based person. I feel like I wasn't alone in that office that night, and I hit that button and the thing pops up and it says, what do you want to name your page?

17:10 I and I got to be honest with you, Jake. I didn't even think about it. I just typed the Good Dad project, those four words, the Good Dad project. And some people know this, and I think a lot of people don't is that was never supposed to be the name of an organization or a company or whatever. It was me.

17:25 I was the project. Like I needed all this help and dance. Your question. It was in that moment that I was like, why am I good at some things in my life? Or at least decently okay at some things in my life? And why am I struggling so much with this whole marriage thing and fatherhood thing? And nobody was talking about it, right.

17:46 And and plus, if you ask for help, you know, you're weak and that kind of thing, which I think is another lie that we tell ourselves. But I started looking at other areas of my life. So I got a degree in fitness in sports medicine with a minor nutrition. So I can tell you everything. There's no about the body.

18:01 I can tell you everything about movement, about kinesiology, about nutrition. Always been a health nut for the majority of my life. I'm like, why am I a pretty fit person? And I know everything about fitness. Well, I have a four year degree in it. And then I went into med device sales. And I mean, dude, they put you through a 90 day training program before they ever let you in an o r with a with a surgeon.

18:24 So and even at that point they tell you. Okay, now you're actually dangerous, right? Because you don't know what you don't know, but you know, a little bit. So like I started looking at other areas to I'm like, look at a cop, right? 900 hours between cadet and officer, 600 hours for a firefighter, 12 years for a general surgeon before they can start operating on people, like, what's the common denominator?

18:45 At the time, I was doing martial arts for probably a little over a decade, and I was I loved it, and I was like, what's the common denominator with all this stuff? And I was like, the common denominator is there's an instructor, there's a curriculum, there's actually a community in most aspects, right. And there's skills that you learn.

19:02 And I started thinking I was like, well, could fatherhood and being a husband, could it be the same, like, I don't know. And so like, I was just like, I made a commitment on that page. I was like, I'm just going to go out and learn one new thing every day, whether it's reading a book or listening to a podcast or searching something up, or just doing my own research to become better myself.

19:23 And I would just post it on that page and I didn't never did it for a following. I didn't even know what a following was. I still kind of actually don't, to be honest with you. I just had a conversation with a guy who joined our group and he was like, you're great at marketing. I was like, that's a joke.

19:36 I was like, because my team will tell you, you were the worst. Mark, you know nothing about marketing because I've never bought an ad. I've never bought followers. I don't even know how to do that. I was like, I literally just speak from my heart. And I figure whatever is going to happen is going to happen. And so that page grew to over like 100 000 followers in a matter of like just a few months.

19:57 I was like, why are these people following me? Like, I don't know what the hell I'm doing. Like. And then I started being asked to speak at like churches. And I'm like, why do they like the first person I asked me to speak? I was like, why do you want me to speak? And they're like, we want you to come in and talk about how to be a good dad.

20:12 I was like, my response was, I was like, you got the wrong guy. I was like, I do not know how to do this. Like I'm learning. I was like, no, like, no. That's what we love. We really like how athletic you are. You're so actually self-deprecating, like, to be honest. So anyway, that was 14 years ago. And what I can tell you is over the past 14 years is yes, that is the gap.

20:32 It's like if you can learn different skills, like how to create environments of psychological safety with your kids, so they'll tell you everything and anything, right? How to ask better questions of your wife so you can elicit more connection and more intimacy with her. Even like the like even five years ago, right? I've been doing this work for this long.

20:49 Five years ago, I finally learned a woman's three greatest needs from her husband is to feel seen, heard, and safe. I'm like, oh wow, okay, well, that makes difference. And even though knowing that, I'm like, okay, well, how do I do that? Like, how do I make her feel seen? How do I make her feel heard? How do I make and what does all that even mean?

21:05 And then it's learning that too. So those are just a scratch on the surface of just some skills. I mean, even patients. Right? It's it's emotional regulation. It's emotional resilience. It's just kind of marketed as patience. Right. But if you can learn those skills of emotional regulation and emotional resilience, you actually will become a more patient individual. We just we identify ourselves as I'm just not that patient.

21:27 Right. But you can actually learn how to do it. Yeah. So so powerful man. And I love that you talk about really being in this, this dark place when you started the Good Dad project, right? And where you're like, I was in the thick of this. I was doing this just so I could learn and so I could get better.

21:48 And that's when I started to become a good man, which was before I began, which it was. It was interesting when I saw you had the Good Dad project, that was how many years ago I started with Become a Good Man, which eventually became No More Desire. And when I started with Become a Good Man, I was sober, but I was still struggling with cravings, like all day, every day.

22:08 Right? And I didn't. There was so much I didn't know, right? And I started to learn. And as I taught other people, and as I eventually started coaching other people, I began learning myself more and more and more. And I was several steps ahead of where they were at as far as sobriety was, but there was still so much that they were struggling with that I was, and that's still the case now in that there's so much that I'm continuing to learn.

22:33 So I love talking about that from kind of the the learner being the teacher. At the same time, in many ways you grow along the way. Yeah. And that's again, it's it's something you do well in, you know, it shows that that vulnerability and that self-deprecation and, and how you talk on your podcast and how you talk to men and, and I think, I think we need that.

22:53 Like we need brotherhood. We need other guys to say, I get it. We don't need somebody up on a pedestal that's like, I've got everything figured out. We need someone to meet us. Where at? So I appreciate that. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. So husband hood, Marriage, right? What would you say are a couple of the primary things that guys are really struggling as far as these skills that guys don't have in their marriage that that were really in need of in this day and age.

23:26 So I'll, I'll point everybody to a really funny YouTube video that's a minute and 42 seconds. I think I might already know what you're about to say. Go ahead. What do you think? It's not. It's not about the nail. Yeah, man. Yeah, but you want to know something like my wife calls this wasted brain space because I, you know, it's like I can remember movie quotes from, like, the 90s, but I can't remember my keys are at.

23:45 But yeah, the woman in that video, I'll ask you this question. She's actually now a pretty big Hollywood star. She was in a huge movie. Huge. And she really like, she's she's now pretty well known. But do you know who she is? No, she's Phoenix in Maverick. She's the female pilot. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I never would have made that connection.

24:08 Yeah, yeah I think that was made in 2013. So it was quite some time before Maverick came out. But yeah, when Maverick came out I was like, God bless that woman. Looks familiar. It was because I seen her probably a thousand times, because I showed that video to all my groups and all my clients, and I'm like, this is true.

24:23 So, you know, let's just talk about something called emotional validation, right? Emotional validation, by the way, is in one of the things that we teach a lot is emotional, emotionally validating your wife through empathy. And, you know, let's get clear on something really quick to burn Brown really is great about when it comes to empathy and the the connection that empathy actually provides.

24:46 And just to decipher some differences here. So, you know, sympathy is actually different than empathy. Like, so when somebody says something they're going through something, they're like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry you're going through that. It's really interesting because you've been told that and so have I. And when we're told that, it's like, I don't know why, it just doesn't feel good to me.

25:04 And Bernie Brown actually explains, well, sympathy makes the one person who's like, I'm so sorry that's happening to you. And the other person's like down here still, like in the basement of, of the, the feelings of it. And they feel like, yeah, you have no idea what I'm going through. It's like it's actually a really disconnecting thing. And we do this actually a lot.

25:21 And when people that we know lose loved ones. Right. I'm so sorry for your loss. But empathy is like I know what it feels like to be where you're at. In fact, why wouldn't you feel the way you do. Because this to happen or that happened or whatever happened like tell me more about that. So like I'll, I'll unpack that and I'll explain that.

25:40 But let's talk about the psychology of a man first and why he wants to fix. So if you watch that video, go watch the video. You'll see it. It's hysterical. It's absolutely hysterical. So this woman is talking and she's like, there's this pain and you can't see her face yet. So there's like, there's this pain and my head is always throbbing and it just hurts.

25:58 And I just don't know what to do. I just don't know what to do. And the guy she's talking to is looking at her. You can't see her yet. And he is just, like, completely befuddled. He's like, what is happening in this situation right now? Are you kidding me? And then you see the woman's face and she's got, like, this huge carpenter nail sticking out of her head, and he just looks at her like she's nuts.

26:19 And he's like, well, you do have a nail sticking right out of your head. And she just gets fiery, right? Like, because that's. So the guy obviously sees the solution to the problem. Like we see that in conversations. And and then we wonder why, like if I'm helping my wife solve her problem, which by the way, I'm going to digress.

26:39 Men solve problems for their wives, or they think that they need to solve problems for the wives because it actually comes from this really freaking beautiful place in us. It comes from the protector in us, right? We love her so freaking much. So like, the best thing we want to do is help her take away this pain. Because I don't want to see somebody I love so much, someone I care about, so much to go through pain.

27:00 So let me help you solve this so I can get you out of pain as quick as I can and be that protector. So it actually really, you know, men get a lot of slack for this, but it comes from such a freaking beautiful place. It comes from a loving place. But that here's the most important part. That's not how it's received, right?

27:17 And we always want to love, and we always want to love somebody and how they're going to receive it. Not necessarily in how we want to give it. So the way a woman interprets that is, you're not listening to me. You don't understand. In fact, I know you're not listening to me because you're thinking of solutions. You don't even understand how I feel like this played out so long in my own marriage.

27:35 My wife would be like, you don't understand. I'm like, no, I do understand. Like, we could do this. No you don't. You're not hearing me. No, I'm hearing every word you're saying. And I'm telling you like this is what we could do about it. You don't get it. I'm like, what do I not get? I what it is like the biggest scrambled eggs of your brain when you're in those conversations.

27:54 So let's just unpack what's happening psychologically when your wife is coming to you and she's talking about something frustrating, whether it's maybe some drama in her friend group or she's having issues with the kids, or like her mother or your your mom or her mom is just driving her crazy or whatever it is. She's after one thing, and it's usually not those solutions connection.

28:16 She wants to be connected. And the more you know how to connect with her, the more attractive you become, right? And this this really throws us off because we're like, I'm not being a value here. I'm not being of service. So the best thing. So empathy by the way, also doesn't necessarily mean agreement. It can. But a lot of people think, well, if I share that I understand how she feels, then I'm agreeing with her.

28:40 Maybe I'm even enabling her into some degree. You can enable behaviors, but you don't necessarily enable feelings, right? So everybody understands what it feels like to be frustrated. And the things that frustrate me may or may not frustrate my wife and vice versa. But I understand the feeling of frustration. I understand the feeling of betrayal. I understand the feeling of heartache and stress and overwhelm.

29:02 Right? So when I see my wife feel those feelings, the best thing I can do in that moment is just simply say, that sounds really heavy. Oh my gosh, right? That sounds really frustrating. And to be honest with you, I don't know anybody in your situation that probably wouldn't be just as frustrated as you are. Please tell me more what's going on now in my mind still, I've been teaching this for years.

29:29 In my mind, I'm like, I, Larry, you're not being effective. Like, come on, man, like so. But you actually are. The more she's talking, the more attractive you become because you are connecting with her. And by the way, here's the really great thing about using empathy with validation like that. Notice emotions are always one word. So frustrated, overwhelmed, sad, happy, excited all one word.

29:55 So if you can identify what you think she might be feeling when she hears that emotion, how it hits her is, oh my gosh, you see me, you're hearing me. And if you can knock those two dominos, those two needs down the third and the most important safe boom falls and the Or she's talking. The more safe she feels, the sexier you become.

30:19 And I'm not saying this out of manipulation, because what you really want to do is just connect with her. Right. But the good news is, is you don't usually have to solve a thing. I mean, studies have shown that 80% of the time you don't have to solve a thing. And the good news also is, is if you're ever confused, I do this with my wife all the time.

30:34 I'll stop her and I'll say, hey, just real quick before you go any further. This sounds like it's a really heavy situation and I want to make sure that I'm the best, you know, for you right now. So if you want me to just sit here and listen, I got you. Right, I got you. If you want to collaborate. Now, notice I said the word collaborative. Didn't say, if you want me to tell you what to do, if you want to collaborate on solutions, we can do that too. Which one of those feels best to you? And notice I said which one feels best to you? I didn't say, which one do you think is best? Because in that emotional state, women are all about their feelings and so are kids.

31:08 Kids are wired the exact same way. The same rules we're talking about apply to the kids. So when you say which one feels right, the good news is she's going to tell you my wife will be like, I just need you to listen. Boom. Great. Okay, not not much work in my brain needs to be done other than to continue to listen to you.

31:23 But if she's like, I'd really like to collaborate on solutions, that's when I actually have to manually turn off solution mode and keep listening to her. And then when we get the solution mode, we can talk solutions. But yeah, that's that's one of many things you can do. That one shift in your marriage will change conversations and connections in your marriage.

31:45 It's so powerful. I love the connect and collaborate, connection and collaboration you're talking about. Women want to be seen, heard and safe. You know, a couple of things that I think of, something that has been helpful, that I've only learned very recently in my life because of a fantastic mentor, is to express to someone he's he's taught me to attune to my heart right when I'm listening to someone.

32:10 Right? And to express to someone I'll listen. And with my wife or with a friend or whoever it is, I'll say, and I'll notice what I feel for them. And I'll say, I feel a lot of sadness for you as you just shared that. Or I can see that that really, like, you feel angry when you say that, or I can see there's or if I don't know, I can see there's a lot of emotion in that for you.

32:34 Can you tell me more about what that's like for you and you? You say that continuous like tell me more about what that's like for you. And that's one of the things with my clients, with my guys that I coach is, is telling them to investigate, which is just that simple question. When they're listening to their wife. Tell me more about what that what that's like for you.

32:52 Tell me how that feels. That one question. I think it's so simple and we can so easily screw it up and go off track and try to solve and fix. It's just opening up the door for someone to really, truly let their emotions flow, right. And we have to be that open space. And I think that's one of those things, you know, call it stoicism or call it mindfulness or call it whatever you will of I'm going to open up space and I'm just going to fully as, as Bernie Brown says, sit, I'm going to sit in this muck with you.

33:25 I'm going to go down in that pit with you, and I'm just going to be there next to you. Yeah. That is so powerful. You said something there that I want to make sure your audience heard because it was gold. Really? Gold. I don't know if you meant to do it or not, but it's something that I write about in the book, and most people will miss it.

33:42 So I always tell guys when I'm coaching them, if you want to know why or more of what's going on, replace the three letter word why with three words. Tell me more. So like for instance, if you say something like, that situation sounds infuriating. Why are you so upset? Right? You're like an interrogation. It is it. That's exactly how it hits somebody's subconscious.

34:07 People don't respond well to the word why psychologists have said that. Like when we're wide, like, you know why to death that it brings us back to, like, when we were little kids and like, why did you do that? Like, what were you thinking? Like, it's like this finger pointing thing, so you can, like, come with this, like, super curious tone, but the word y will hit the mind very, very differently.

34:28 But tell me more. So why feels like this? Like I'm pointing at you. Tell me more feels like this. Which is like my arms are open and this is an invite for more. So it hits very, very differently. So like whenever you say, tell me more about that or tell me why that was so meaningful to you, even though I said the word y in there.

34:45 But to tell me more, if you can preface it with that, it feels way better to people. It's way more connecting because the word y could be really disconnecting. I like I also like that you say it goes from this pointing to this openness. Right. Hands out. And that was, that was another thing that I've been taught as well is, is literally the posture of, of open hands.

35:07 Yeah. Right. And so in fact, last week or so, my, my wife, my wife was really angry about something. I don't remember what it was, but she was very, very frustrated. And so I you start to feel kind of that heat, that building. And I want to get defensive and I want to go, go fight right. And and and prove that I'm right.

35:26 And so I'm breathing and I'm trying to calm down. And I sat down at the table with her and I, and I sat with my hands open. She was like, I don't want to hold your hands right now. I'm like, you don't have to hold my hands. And she doesn't know what I'm doing. She's like, why is he doing? And I'm just holding my hands open to try to be open. And I was able to listen and effectively do what I try to teach guys to do, which is to reflect back. Right? You know, after I've listened. So what I've heard you saying is, and you, you teach this as well, just a few words that I'll share, a couple things to reflect back to what she's just explained.

36:02 And then to say that makes sense to me. As I say, recognize it by reflecting that or reflect it, I mean appreciate and then investigate. Tell me more about what that's like for you. Or I heard you say this. Tell me more about what you're experiencing. And that just opened up space for her to keep expressing the exact thing the part of me doesn't want to hear, right?

36:23 Like I don't like. This is so uncomfortable for me right now. I don't want to feel it. But by reflecting and by appreciating and by investigating, I opened up more and more and she felt more and more relaxed to express. And then by the end, by listening to her, I was then able to say, yeah, that all makes sense to me.

36:42 Do you mind if I express some of the things that I've felt, and then she's actually open to receiving that, right. And just that open posture that really that really did help me to attune in that moment. Yeah. What you provided was an it's another skill that we teach, which is an environment of psychological safety, which is that feels like more like an academic term.

37:05 But what are the. So people are like, what's an environment of psychological safety? A lot of people ask that. And I'm like, in the simplest terms. Have you ever told somebody, I don't know what it is about you, but I feel like I can tell you anything. That's one situation, right? Or you have a conversation with somebody.

37:24 Let's just say it's at a coffee shop. You pour your heart out, and then you get in your car and you're like, oh my God, I cannot believe. Like what? What was I? I told them so much. Holy crap. And then you're texting and be like, I'm so sorry. I really I guess I felt really comfortable with you. I told you so much what actually happened in that moment. That's an environment of psychological safety. So the environment of psychological safety is free from shame, blame, pain and guilt. Right. And there are different things that we can do to help manufacture that space for people. This works great. And it's when I say works, I'm not trying to say it's like some Jedi mind trick or manipulation.

37:59 Like these are just psychological things that actually a human being responds to. So like, let's just talk about choice of words. So like for instance, choice of words is if somebody is feeling a painful emotion, right? And then there's positive emotions. That's kind of how we identify them. People don't like to feel painful emotions. They just don't like it.

38:19 And they certainly don't like for other people to see that they're carrying those painful emotions. And when I explain this to guys like, what do you mean? I was like, here's a perfect example. When you come home, you have a really bad day at work, and you just feel like you're carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders, and then your wife is like, are you okay?

38:32 You don't look okay. And you're like, I was like, what do you say? I'm fine. I was like, and then why do you say that? Well, I don't want to burden her. I don't want to come off as weak. Exactly. You don't want to feel it. You don't want somebody else to see it. So when someone's going through a painful emotion, one of the most important things to create more psychological safety is you shine the light on the situation, not on the person.

38:53 So notice when I said, that sounds really frustrating. I didn't say you sound really frustrated, but when you say that sounds really frustrating, it's more me and you against the thing versus me, against your heavy emotion that I that I can see. So when people can be like, yes, that makes me frustrated. I don't have the label of being frustrated.

39:10 It's easier. So that's number one. Number two is tonality. Tonality is huge. I could literally say the exact same words and a different tone, and it has a different meaning for you. And I'll give you an example. I could be like, hey Jake, dude, what's up with that? What's up with that? What do you got there? Is that a quarter zip you got?

39:32 Yeah, definitely be like, dude, what's up with the quarters? It man. Now that's one way of saying it, right? But if I say already, a part of me is like, oh, what? What? Is it wrong? Is this a bad call? That was meant to be okay. Oh that's positive. Yeah, that was it. That shows my own my own insecurities.

39:47 Right? It's like, what if I say this? I'm like, dude, Jake, what is up with that quarter zip. Like right. You feel that difference? Like one was curious. Oh that's cool. And the other ones like it was the same words, just different tone. Right. So tonality is is really, really big on creating environments, psychological safety. Another thing to like if I'm going to have a difficult conversation or if a conversation is coming to me is difficult or vice versa.

40:12 I always recommend to guys be in a 90 degree angle with the person where they're on your right or left, or go for a walk or go for a drive. Why is that? Because when you don't have to actually face someone, and especially like a walk, right? When you're walking, you're walking in the same direction. We're on the same team.

40:31 We're shoulder to shoulder. It's kind of like the coin toss at the football game, right? The the players go out there, they're shoulder to shoulder and the players that are on the same team, they're like, I got your back. I got we we have the same mission, the same goal. I feel safe with you. And then they get to the coin toss and they're looking at the dudes across from them, which is the opposite of psychological safety, because nose to nose, toes to toes is conflict.

40:52 It's me against you. You feel that feeling too. It's like, dude, I'm coming after you and your family on this football team, right? Like that's what they're thinking. So, like, the more you can have open body language, right, the more you can position your body in relation to the other person, the more you can really, you know, soften your tonality into a tone of curiosity and appreciation versus being direct and bold and overbearing.

41:17 Those things really, really mattered, right? And plus, like, one of the things that creates more psychological safety is once your audience here because you nailed it, is just asking very curious, generative questions like, like, tell me more about what this experience felt like for you, right? You're not saying what is wrong with you. I feel this way.

41:37 You're saying, just tell me more about what this experience felt like for you. Like those are questions that people want to answer, right? There might be uncomfortable to answer, but it's way more comfortable to answer that than versus, like, why are you so angry? Yes, yes. And I think it what is amazing is we can start from kind of that egoic, uptight, tense place where I feel guarded.

42:00 But then when we practice these, as you say, skills that we build, that we're, we're, we're learning over time by doing it right. First we need to know, but then we need to actually do it. We actually move from a guarded place just by asking these questions to an open place. It happens for me as I'm asking those questions, and I actually start to feel more curious and more open.

42:24 Right. And that is a skilled based thing in a lot of ways. And I think that eventually it becomes more and more authentic over time, right, of I really want to know, like, I really want to know what this is like for you. And I'm deeply curious about your inner world. That's and that's a, that's a place of genuine joy, I think.

42:46 I think it's there's a sacredness and a joy in being able to mourn with those who mourn, right, and sit next to someone in their sadness and be like, I feel the sadness with you, I see you. That's a lot better than I really don't want to feel your sadness. And it's uncomfortable for me. Just feels like crap.

43:04 Yeah it does, which is another reason why. So men want to fix, right? We want to do that because. Because the the people we love. But you, you actually just maybe you consciously or unconsciously just actually the second reason is men, we as men, I say we cause me to like we we get pretty uncomfortable with really big emotions.

43:23 Right. So like, take it like when your kids are like, I have four boys, so there's like shenanigans all the time. So it's like. It's like when, you know, like my 12 year old stole my ten year old's pillow last night and he was just like, what the heck, man? Like, why are you still my like, he was like pissed man.

43:45 And I immediately and be like, calm down. Like, man, get it together and ain't that big of a freaking deal. It's a pillow, right? Like, yes. But like, yes, you I really I relate to this. Yeah, I do so like, you know the reason now, is it about him or is it about me? It's actually more about me. If I really analyze that, it'd be like, man, I don't you don't have to get so upset because that makes me uncomfortable, right? So I want to tamp that down so I don't feel so uncomfortable. And by the way, there is that protector. Me, I don't want you to feel uncomfortable. So let me just say these words and hopefully this will go away.

44:18 So that's the other reason we do that. That actually brings you back to a question I was thinking of earlier when you were talking about this, this inclination. We have to fix it, right? It's not about the nail. We're saying there's a nail in your head. If you can just take it out, you'd feel better. You know, one of the things that I really had to come head to head with, that I continuously for years in my marriage just hit my head against this brick wall, which was this controlling mentality of please stop feeling anxiety or please stop feeling fear or your shame, your insecurity.

44:53 Because why? For years I was under this impression. Because I care about you. Because I don't want you to feel bad and here's how you can fix it. But eventually I came face to face with actually looking at the wall, and I'm staring at and saying, what is this really about for me? I don't want to feel uncomfortable.

45:15 I would rather your suffering go away so that I don't need to watch it, because that makes me uncomfortable. There. You nailed it. Yeah, absolutely nailed it. I want to show you something here. So I, I'm, I just launched this brand new book. I have a hard print here. It's called the Marriage drift. Stop leading and start chasing.

45:34 Start leading and stop chasing, I should say. But. But you didn't. You didn't learn it yet. Yeah. Really? Right. But it's it's how to rebuild safety, attraction, connection and become the manual marriage response to what you're talking about is. And something that I put in here, by the way, this is a really easy read. It's about 30 pages and I love pictures.

45:52 So there's like lots of graphs. There's not too many words. Yes. Right. Very good. I didn't make a coloring book, but maybe I could, but, But I wanted something very short for a guy to read. And what you're talking about is actually in, in chapter two, in this book, which is called positive masculine presence. Right? One of the symptoms that men get themselves tripped up on is and I used to do it all the time, which is like I try to manage her emotions so I don't feel that discomfort.

46:22 It's exactly what you just said and like. And I love the fact you peel back the onion because it's like, why am I doing that? Well, it's actually about me and my comfort versus hers. So like one of the things that you can do, one of the best things you could do in that situation is stay steady yourself.

46:38 Right. Grounded, masculine presence is being able to emotionally regulate yourself so you can correct somebody else. I mean, you don't have direct control over them, but you do have influence, right? One thing I'll say two without connection, you don't have any influence. So it's really important that you're connected. But what you're talking about is like the way I, I break this down for clients is I was like, think of I think it's more relatable.

47:03 Actually, let me digress to kids, but still think of your wife for a second. Think of your kid, in the pool, in your backyard. If you have one or public pool, it doesn't really matter and they are just throwing an absolute fit in this pool right about something. God only knows what. Maybe brother or sister still the rubber ducky.

47:21 And they're really upset. And what what a man will do is he will jump into that emotional pool with them and be like, it's not that big of a deal. Like, look at it. It's just calm down. Like it's stop crying. Like. And it's really about like you're making me feel uncomfortable. It's not you. So like, I the way I picture this for men is like, don't ever jump into somebody else's emotional pool.

47:43 Instead, stay on the side of the pool. Allow them to have their emotion right. Be more that beacon and that more like that lifeguard of like, hey, the ladders right over there. Not that you have to solve the problem. Not saying that, but it's like, oh, I see you're struggling down there, right? I see like I see that you're upset.

48:01 But if you can stay steady, you can use those skills of validation. You can use those skills of empathy. And but the most important thing, and I think this is really visual for men is like, don't dive into that pool with them. Instead, stay in the side of the pool and allow whatever emotional experience they're experiencing to disown.

48:21 Fold. You're the lifeguard. You don't have to not. You have to jump in and save them, but you're watching out for them, right? The lifeguard doesn't always jump in and save them, especially if he doesn't see any danger. But he will sometimes right in extreme situations. But there there is a watchful eye, right? But I think that that what I've noticed is my clients, guys in my group, like they really relate to that type of analogy and that comparison.

48:46 So yeah, if you find yourself wanting to tamp down somebody else's emotions because it's making you feel uncomfortable, grounded, masculine presence is staying steady, staying regulated, just allow that person to have whatever experience that they're having. And the more you try to tamp it down, actually, quite frankly, what you're doing is you're making it worse for them. You're also making it worse for yourself.

49:08 And I and I think what comes up for me is, is when you say that some guys that's gonna, they're gonna get that. And I think if you would have taken me back I don't know, 6 or 7 years, something like that, I would have taken that as, oh okay. So I need to, I need to detach myself the emotions, which is not what you're saying.

49:29 But I think I used to be so bad at really feeling the emotion with my wife, right. Allowing myself to enter that space. And I would say the primary reason and something that you talk about, you talk about emotional regulation, which is it's probably the number one thing that I work on with guys one on one and in groups is how do we emotionally regulate, how do we share emotions, or how do we work through vulnerable emotions?

49:58 And if I didn't have the ability, I didn't even know how to actually process and regulate things like anger or craving or sadness or shame and gaining the ability to do that with my own emotions of really being deeply present with. And so I learned about emotional mindfulness, and I practice breathwork and I do. I've started doing body movement with emotions.

50:24 And bilateral stimulation is really very helpful actually, as well. All these things to get deeply present with painful emotions. Now I find myself being able to sit with my wife and when she expresses sadness, I can cry with her and feel what? Feel that she is in pain and to actually actually care rather than being so detached, which I think we easily get into when we don't even know how to feel our own emotions.

50:56 Yeah, yeah, I agree, I think that's really well said, man. Well, and I know it's, it's, it's this journey that we all have to go on, you know, as, as men in general. And I think especially these days when we just have technology, all these, these shields, you know, social media and TV and pornography and video games and all this stuff that just we go to, to regulate, regulate our emotions for us, instead of being able to sit in the discomfort and work through it.

51:32 But I think I think again, many of us don't. We don't even know where to start with that. Now, to do it, I think you need an anchor, you know, can I share a quick story about that? Yeah. And I know we're wrapping up in just a just a few minutes, so this would be good. Yeah. So this this is not in my book, the pursuit of legendary fatherhood, which, by the way, a quick funny story.

51:53 When I was working with that publisher, unfortunately, I went bankrupt and I had to self-publish. He was like, he saw me speak and he wanted to. I was talking about I was writing this book and he was like, he was like, hey, I'm his publisher. I want to, I want to, I want to do your book. And I was like, he's like, but I have a problem with the title.

52:09 I was like, okay, let's problem. He's like, well, it's the pursuit of legendary fatherhood. I was like, yeah. And he goes, why not just call it legendary fatherhood? And I smiled that mid 40s. And I go, you don't have any kids, do you? And he's like, no I don't. He's like, actually I'm not married. I was like, then you would know there's no such thing as legendary fatherhood.

52:30 No, no, dad that I know of, except for one man who walked the earth and that was Jesus Christ that ever got to the top of mount and be like, look, I did it. A legendary father, right? But there's the person, right? There's the growth of it. But the story I have for you. So it was back in 2025, I was hosting an event called the Men's Forge, which were actually doing again this next year.

52:49 But this was like a year and four months ago or whatever else. But I was there at this event and I ruptured my patella tendon, just severed my patella tendon in half, one of the most horrific, painful injuries I've ever had in my life. That's that's tailbone. Am I getting that correctly? It's it's it's the tendon that connects your.

53:07 Oh me. Yeah. 000 my gosh, that sounds horrific. It was awful man. So anyway I that was three weeks before we were leaving for this family vacation, and it was like a really unique vacation, like when you normally would just go to, like, the beach or whatever, like we go on like kind of cheap occasions, but like, oh, we'll just go beach it or whatever.

53:28 And, but we decided to do this 12 day road trip that we flew. We flew out to hurricane, our Saint George, Utah. And then we did Zion and all the parks and the beautiful Moab and all this other stuff. It's like the 1212 day thing, all this hiking and all this stuff. Well, because I got injured, I couldn't go, so, like, my family left, and, dude, I'll never forget.

53:53 And, like, I could barely walk at that point, like, I couldn't walk. I was on crutches still. So I'm at home alone for 12 days. 12 freaking days without my family. And it was a mind boggle, man. And I got to see my wife was posting all these amazing memories and photos of my family. And dude, I was just like, I, I, I made it.

54:12 I knew all that was going to happen. Before they left, I made a decision. I was like, I will not drink alcohol. I will not smoke. I don't smoke weed anyway. But like I don't, I will not do, I won't do any drugs. I don't do drugs anyway, but I won't do drugs and I will not masturbate and I will not like a porn.

54:29 I'm not going to do any of those things. I'm not going to numb one thing or just distract myself from anything that comes up for me. Nothing. And all fantastic. It was crazy. It. I'm not going to lie. It was a crucible and I can imagine I did it. And here's what I'll tell you. That happened. I cried every freaking day.

54:54 Every day, either to some degree where I was either just, you know, crying a little bit or I was freaking sobbing my eyes out. And but I cried every day and I just decided I'm just going to face whatever comes up and I'm not going to numb it. And I will tell you, when that garage door went up at 1030 at night, when they got home 12 days later, I felt like I had won the lottery.

55:15 I had probably been the most mentally and emotionally healthy that I've ever been, but I will tell you, it didn't come without some freaking darkness, man. And that darkness was really, really dark at times. But what I learned in that 12 days was that the only way through, like these tough emotions are exactly that, through it and facing it the more.

55:40 And I know your platform is is all about helping men with this with with this advice we call pornography, which is probably the easiest thing for us to distract ourselves with. But when you can, you know, when you try to go around under or over your emotions with using things like that or whatever, vice, it's only going to make that journey.

55:58 And you know this better than anybody. It's only going to make that journey way more treacherous, and it's going to be filled with shame. It's going to be filled with guilt. It's going to ruin your confidence. But when you can do that uncomfortable thing of just like, I'm just going to face it, I'm not even going to judge my emotions if I cry, screw it.

56:14 I'm going to cry. If I get mad, I'm going to get mad. If I'm going to be happy, I'll be happy. It doesn't matter. I'm just going to face it. Like the journey through is so much shorter. It's harder versus trying to go around under, over. Yes, I love that. It's, you know, I did a a hollow breathwork experience at this retreat a few weeks ago.

56:35 Have you ever done that before? If you get the chance, if you ever have a group and some facilitators, it's about 90 minutes of high ventilation breathwork. So you're it's rapid rhythmic breathing pretty much continuously. And by the end you're just you're just drenched in sweat. But it's enabling you to dig down deep into your unconscious. And the emotions that I worked through there and that I was a part of other guys, you know, in the room, feeling them go through the the rage and the anger and the grief and the sadness and eventually digging down deep into into love, right, and into peace and joy.

57:19 We chose to just move through all that and this incredible growth happen for everybody in that room. And I think, again, we have a whole culture teaching us not to do that, just to ignore or distract or replace, and instead of learning to move through, as you're saying, is is so key. And this is helpful both an addiction and also in our in our marriages.

57:41 It's powerful that man. Yeah. So Larry, there's so much more we could talk about. I'm sure we could talk for another hour easily. We need to hop off. Yeah. If people want to connect with you. They want to check out your book. I'm going to put links in the show notes. But where should people go? You know, I always tell people, start with the podcast, you know, the podcast, you can literally get that anywhere.

58:03 The audio book for Legendary Fatherhood just came out. I read it, so if you want to go grab a copy of the book, you can, I am running a promo in our organization for the month of October and November. The I held up the book The Marriage Drift. So if you if you join us in the Alliance, we've had the alliance for the past, gosh, ten years.

58:22 And I've rarely run promos for that. But if you join us in the month of the Alliance, October, November, you'll get a copy of The Marriage Drift. So it's going to help you identify behaviors that are disconnecting that probably aren't on your radar. It's going to walk you through a grounded, masculine presence is it's going to it's going to teach you all about attraction, polarity, all the things that you had probably in the beginning of your marriage that you want back, but you're just like, I'm not really sure how to get it back.

58:48 This book will definitely help you with that. I'm also giving away a signed copy of Pursuit of Legendary Fatherhood, so whenever you sign up, I merely a copy of that sign personally to you. And then I'm also given to, courses away with that. So it's creating more patience in the heat of chaos. I teach emotional regulation and emotional resilience and then creating an extraordinary marriage where I teach 11 tactical skills, one of them being exactly what we talked about today, which is empathy and validation.

59:13 But there's ten more psychological safety was another one. So there's nine more that you'll learn all that is free if you join us in the month of October, November, if you go to the data edge.com/join. Love it man. Well it'll be a privilege for everybody who joins. And again just privilege to have you on. Thank you so much.

59:33 Thanks to help a lot of guys. Yeah, man. Hi, gents. That is all we got time for today. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm hoping that this podcast was I mean, obviously, it was very real, very raw. I admitted a few things that I that my temptation was going to possibly get the best of me if I didn't call on some help when I did.

59:52 So I know you guys, a lot of you guys on some of this show, you deal with that too. But hey, what I want you to do is for all the show notes for the link to join the alliance, which is the date edge.com/join if you want to get all the show notes, all the goodies, everything that we talked about today go to the edge.com/1565 for this show.

1:00:10 Again the date edge.com/1565 gents I love you go out live legendary. Take care.