Good Mothers, Bad Partners, and Painful Punishments (S1 E18 "Children Will Listen)

Welcome to Desperately Devoted.

Think of us as your favorite neighbors as we chat about life and relationships, all.

While we revisit the iconic show Desperate Housewives together.

I'm Terry Hatcher, I'm Andrea Bowen, and I'm Emerson Tiny Well. Welcome back, everybody, Welcome to the podcast. This is desperately Devoted, and we are desperately devoted to you and all things Desperate Housewives and all things life. This is for episode eighteen, which is called Children Will Listen.

Which is from my favorite son, Tim Music Hall Into the Woods. It is this beautiful haunting song that's sung by Bernette Peters the Witch and is really honestly a warning of the care and then it comes back in the reprise later when they say, you know, be careful what you wish for wishes our children.

But this idea that the things that you.

Say will actually have consequence and will be heard, and the kind of like listen to me refrain that the Witch has had for Rapunzel, who she's keeping up in her tower, finally comes back to haunt her and it's oh God, I have the goosebumps.

Have goosebumps? Okay, Well, love something that's one of.

Those that's one of those like instant cry things in my life, Like if I listen to that song, it's an instant.

Criscriber sort of.

You know, there's a little bit of an acting technique. I do feel that many actors I know use music in a way that is supportive to their emotional state of a character in something that they're working on. Sometimes actors, including by myself, you know, you be in your trailer before you shoot a scene, or even on set. I've seen people with you know, headphones in and they'll be listening to a certain piece of music that evokes some sort of mood that they feel that they need to have as a character. Like music is a very powerful thing.

And I'm I know, we're not going to go because we've already told our audience the Into the Woods story of doing into the Woods for your eleventh birthday party in the backyard. We're very committed to all things Into the Woods. But if you're not familiar with that show, you should you should check it out. There's many iterations of it summing.

But I think you should start. I think you should start with the with the original and I think that uh, you know. That's how I experienced it. We watched it on VHS because we'd recorded it on PBS when they aired it, and I think it's the best way to introduce yourself to that musical.

Yeah, yeah, there is.

There is a movie of it that Meryl Streep is in that only blunts in.

That's that's amazing.

But they've cut songs and it's not exactly the same storyline, and so I would say that shouldn't be your first foray and.

I still have not seen it because of my loyalty to the original Broadway show.

Certain things you'll love, and there will be a few things that you're disappointed with, I think.

Yeah, but it's worth saying, but I respect your loyalty. So this episode, a lot happens as always. We have Carlos and Gabby who are arguing over money and quite violently. We're going to get into that. I think we can say that all three of us were equally upset. Yeah, so we'll talk more about that. We have Paul and Zach and Felicia who are continuing to intermingle over their garden fence and sort of stir up the mystery of Mary Alice and was she ever in Utah and did she know Felicia and what is all that leading?

Also, what's that dismembered body in the toy chest finally going to be that comes back around?

Yes?

And then we have Brie and Rex who go to visit Andrew who's now been at the detention camp for a while. And Andrew discloses that he is gay, and Brie ends up saying, I will wait in the car. That's one way of dealing with something. And then we have Lynette who is dealing with her Brady kids and I know we've talked about before like where's that leading, like her sort of lack of ability to get any kind of appropriate control over that, But in this episode, she ends up needing Brie to do a last minute babysitting for her, and the kids are really acting up over and over, and Bree's conservative Reagan on the Wall of way of looking at life is that she is a spanker, and so she spanks one of Bree's boys

and that ends up with Lynette and Brie really betting heads over motherhood.

We cannot overlook the Motherhood's storyline between Susan and our guest star of this episode.

La Warren.

Yes, so Leslie and Warren appears in this episode as Susan's mother, so f and so yeah, as I was saying, like so much of this episode hinges around motherhood and being a mom and being a good mom and what is a good mom? And are you a good enough mom? And you even have Brie at the detention center, you know, she's just feeling so frustrated.

And bad and she looks at Rex and she's like.

I am a good mother, and so I don't know, like what, why is ill?

Also, yeah, jury is out.

We get a line from Lynette sort of similarly on the other side of things, which is when she's discussing how her mother parented her and her sisters growing up and that she would hit them, and she says, I will not be mine, I will not become my mother, which I think is a really prevalent thing. A lot of a lot of people feel like I don't want to become my parents.

Oh I feel that way all the time.

I mean sometimes, like as even as I'm aging, you know, I'll look in the mirror and sometimes see my mother and it's so disturbing, not disturbing necessarily from just the looks thing. But the looks thing leads me into feeling emotionally like am I my mother because I personally while I can totally respect that there are good qualities about my mom, and I can also empathize with my mom's weaknesses and where they came from from her very complicated childhood and upbringing. So there's a lot of compassion there.

But in the end, I do not have a relationship with a mother that is, I don't know, aspirational or comforting or nurturing, even though I'm sure that she would want to be, but she just not in my lifetime really ever had those tools. And so I find my mother daughter relationship as a daughter to my mother to be complicated, which makes me treasure even more. My relationship with you as the mother to the daughter, where I think it's sort of the opposite of what I had with my makes.

A lot of sense.

I mean, I was just gonna say, sometimes I look in the mirror and I think that I look like you when you were my age, and that's actually a big, huge gift, and I get excited about it because you're gorgeous, so very different feeling than looking in the mirror and being horrified.

Isn't that crazy?

Though?

I mean, but that and that again, like to the generations. I love part of our show being about these different perspectives that generations have. And I love being a mom who was able to break some of the negative cycle in parenting that I experienced in the way that I parented you.

I mean, I think it's one of the things.

Well, I think that's all that we can hope for, is that we're able to break patterns that we saw not serve the people that we love in our own lifetime.

Yeah, And I think that's the goal with parenting, right, is like you, you take the paton and you you try to incorporate the things that you appreciated from the parents that you have, and you try to reject the things that you feel like didn't serve you. I have to say I have been blessed in my life. I have an incredibly close relationship with my mom. My mom is like a universal mom to so many people in my life because of what an incredible example of maternal love and support and guidance she provides.

I just I've always had.

A closeness with my mom, but I didn't I couldn't relate in that way. I wasn't a mom, you know, and I'm still just in the very very early stages of my own motherhood journey. But gosh, you just end up having so much more empathy for the fact that she was just a young woman trying to figure it out herself, you know, and oh my gosh, I'm just completely overwhelmed with the idea of motherhood. So I really, I actually really loved episode eighteen because of its emphasis on thee.

Well, it's a miracle.

It's a miracle to grow a human being in your body, that's for sure. And it's a great amount of responsibility to think that you are responsible for this person's life and everything they're going to feel and think and be exposed to. And you know, it's crazy huge, which actually leads me to why some people don't want to do it.

And in this instance, that would be Gabby. She do not want to do it because it's too much. And I actually have a lot of respect for people that make that choice, because I don't think you should take motherhood lightly, you know, I.

Know we've talked about this before.

I feel like you need absolutely zero credentials to become a parent, and I think you should have to prove that it's something you're ready to I mean, unfortunately, biologically this doesn't happen except for if my mom was having her dictatorship where everyone had a forced eseectomy.

I'm committed to that plan.

I think it's a plan, but I.

Do I mean, obviously, biologically there aren't any credentials. But I wish that there was some sort of process the way that if you adopt a child, you have to do so much work to prove that you have a stable home and a stable income, and that you're going to be the type of parent who's going to be able to.

Show up for your kid in lots of different ways, like and.

You have to show that you live in a certain It's just it's very difficult, the tasks, the different tasks to adopt a child, as it should be, but I think there should some level of similar qualification to have a child. And if you don't want to have a child, if you're able to go, you know what, it's a huge responsibility. The world is a crazy place. I think there's a myriad of reasons it would make sense not to want to personally take on the responsibility of bringing another life into the world that you're going to shape and mold. Getting back to Gabyan Carlos, I really think you need to be with someone who is on the same page about that.

I think that scene is so crazy frustrating as well, because she couldn't be more clear, right. He says, I always thought maybe you'd leave the door open, and she's like, well, I'm not. You know, it's not And she's expressing a gratitude to him for the fact that she interprets him as as understanding and respecting the fact that this is not part of her plan. She's been clear about it.

She doesn't want kids, and he says, you know, like, yeah, I do accept it because I think you're the best thing in the world, blah blah blah. But meanwhile we see that he's completely been continued with her.

Yeah.

I think, actually, what the fuck Carlos. This episode could a new title, which it shouldn't be because obviously, you know, we Love some Time would be what the fuck Carlos.

Because that.

I was yelling at my laptop where I was watching this episode from Yeah, I just know he's.

Clearly the villain of Withasteria Lane and I didn't remember this this way. You know, like I really think when I thought back on season one, that we were led to think that that Paul Young is the spooky guy on the street and you know a little bit with Mike. But I think we ultimately obviously are rooting for Mike.

But you know, Carlos wasn't in my mind the like bad guy neighbor. But then we see this and I mean this episode, he has that violent outburst moment where he forces Gabrielle to sign this ye posting up you know, marital agreement and.

So what So what happens in this episode is like following through from the last episode, Gabby has sort of, you know, subversely gotten a big paycheck from the hospital who felt responsible for the death of Juanita because she fell down the stairs. And she's keeping that a secret, and you know, she seems to have a good plan about it that you know, she doesn't want the government to get the money and there's a whole you know, with them.

And she's right that Carlos would have used the money to pay the lawyers and not just taken the eight month plea in jail.

Had she told him, you know, we can believe that she was trying to do the best with the money for the both of them, although you know, maybe she was trying to keep it for herself. But needless to say, what she was doing was the best plan for them to keep the money. But she keeps it from him and he finds out about it, and it is that outburst of physical violence, like screaming so loud, grabbing her wrists.

He literally forces her hand to sign the post nup.

While he has his other hand like up on her neck.

On helping her.

Yeah, and I agree with you, Andrew. I did not remember this part of that character. And it is also as we're moving forward, hard to remember how he comes back from this, because it is like things that you see like that that you go, well, that character has to die now, you know, right, because I don't know how you recover from that. And he still, by the way, has eight months of prison to be serving. I mean, maybe that's what they're going to do. Maybe that's what we're looking forward to, is that he's going to go to prison and maybe come out a realized person or something.

But this, of course pushes Gabby back into John's arms, and you know that's where she's you know, and I guess it did give you a little bit of understanding of what Gabby was doing with John in the first place. Like I was always a little mystified by the whole thing of like why does Gabby find this young person so you know, intoxicating and I'm not sure any it all made sense to me. But in that in this scene and her rushing back into his arms really added up for me. Let me circle back to the fabulous and amazing, legendary Leslie and Warren.

Yes, let's do it, let's do it.

So she comes on as Susan's mom. And first of all, did you guys ever see the movie Victor Victoria?

Yes?

Okay, So, like you know, that was my experience of Leslie and Warren. This like coooky, fabulously flighty, sexy.

Actress, all the things that Susan is, all the things.

And even Mike Delfino says, you know, he has a line where he says like, oh, now it's all makes sense to me, you know, And that's pretty fabulous casting when you can put that together.

Oh my gosh, I remember everyone freaking out about that casting, like everyone internally on set, the writer's, the crew, like everyone was just like, oh my god, this is the perfect casting for Susan's mom. I do for that.

Yeah, yeah, it really was. It really was.

There was, and it was funny because there was some lines within that. One of those first scenes where they're cooking in the kitchen together, where Sophie claims that people think her and Susan look like sisters.

This was my favorite line of the episode and I actually did a spit take when I heard it, when Sophie says, people think we're sisters and Susan goes because you tell them that, and it was so perfectly delivered.

Susan is chopping this onion, which I had to point out.

I was like, Wow, my mom is going to like be cringing so hard right now, because this is not how you hold an onion that you chop, and it's she's chopping it like it's a circular.

It's just they featured it.

I thought that it was going to lead to her cutting her finger or something, because they like zoomed in on it, and I thought, Oh, she's gonna cut her finger, and then nothing came of it, and I thought, well, that's weird.

I had the exact same thought.

I think they zoomed in on it so that you would understand why I was crying, you know, like why I was getting kind of teary eyed, or right the onion was giving Susan so much trouble. I sort of recall, you know, hearing that Leslie herself had some reservations about playing my Mom because she didn't think she was old enough.

Like that that was a real thing.

But then.

I also recall hearing from Leslie later that that is not true, that that was never said, and that I don't know somebody in the writer's room made that up. I do think there was some some some miscommunication that went on back and forth over the times that she was on the show, which I thought was interesting because I do think it kind of the way I heard it, it had to do with age and beauty, and I do think that resonates so stereotypically, like women just have to sort of put up with that like that somebody would assume that an older actress would care when maybe she didn't care, and and and I don't know. It was also interesting for me watching it now because I thought, I'm Leslie and Warren now like I'm I mean not

that I not that I'm saying that I'm as legendary as her, but I mean I'm her, I'm the age that she probably was when she came in to play my mother. I'm now that person, and I wouldn't have any problem with it, Like I would be thrilled to be the Leslie and Warren in quote to the Susan in quotes.

Do you know what I mean?

Like that would be a fun job. I just I think actors want to keep working and and finding fun, you know, roles And I think Sophie was a really great, crazy role for her.

So she did so zany so fun. Obviously, it's it's cool to get to watch Susan be the straight man kind of character to her zaniness, considering that Susan's often portrayed as the like flighty, ridiculous zany one herself. So that was kind of a fun thing to flip that dynamic. And also, not only did we get Leslie and Warren now on the show, but she brings with her Morty played by Bob Newhart.

Yeah, so this Marty beca first of all.

Okay, so I'm I would I'm freak out about Bob Newhart. I mean, to me, you know I grew up like watching all of the different variations of his show, like I just love him. So I watched the scene with Susan and Morty in the diner, and I was, I was, I loved it so much, like I actually thought we were both great, like I I, but I had no recollection of it. And I was like, Terry, how could you not remember doing a scene just one on one with Bob Newhart? What is wrong with my brain that I don't have an actual recollection of that? Like and because I know if he walked in here right now, you know what I mean, Like I know how I feel about him, like he's just an icon and a brilliant, brilliant comedian, like I must have treasured that so much,

But I don't.

I don't have the memory.

You know what I do have a memory of My parents had an album collection that must be from the sixties, and I remembered that they had a Bob Newhart comedy album and I brought it to the set and he autographed it for my parents. And not only that, he invited them to go see his show in Vegas. And when they got to Vegas, he put them up in a better hotel room than I had gotten for my parents.

Oh yeah, and so he was so generous to my parents. And I mean it's just.

Like, well, that's something that you remember.

Yeah, I was gonna say, I think if it were up to him, he'd prefer that you remember that then necessarily the one off diner scene.

But I want to say I also recall there being some vibe of this, and I want to ask you guys what you think, because I know I had an opinion about it. So as the show was going on, you know, we got Bob Newhart, we got ended up getting Carol Burnett, there were.

Some other like Lily Tomlin.

Lily Tomlin like and there was a little bit of a thing where you started to go is this the love Boat? Like what's happening? And you know, like like when does the stunt casting? When is it so big that now you're not watching Desperate Housewives anymore? Now you're watching like the love Boat was known for. We're going to get these great actors that everybody loves and cherishes, and we're going to have them.

Do a story and that'll be really cool.

And I remember being like, yeah, this is really cool because obviously these are the most iconic actors ever. But is it servicing the peace? And I'm not sure that it did.

I like to push back on that.

Yeah, you were thinking about how TV airs today when you like have a limited series drop and you're watching something really as a piece. But I would argue, I mean, and we learned this when we were talking to Jamie for ABC that had all these failed shows where you're trying to get people to tune back in every week, and you have an iconic show that then gets to be a vehicle for such amazing guest stars that people would want to see. I actually think it makes a lot of sense, and I think there's something as a viewer to me now that is it puts Desperate Housewives in this other category of kind of iconography. That's I think, really beautiful. I don't know if Andrew you agree or disagree, but I don't bump on it.

I also don't bump on it with our particular guest stars. I would say I think that if they were more specifically pop culture of the moment, maybe it would have felt like it was taking me out of it. But because they were in the examples, we've given more of the like iconic Hollywood fixture, amazing career, veteran type of actors coming on. To me, it feels like really added value.

And also there's some things that are stacked on top of each other that made Desperate Housewives I think, really have this special magic world, which was even the street that we filmed on, right, it had such a Hollywood history. It's like the Leave It to Beaver House and the Monster House and all of this, and so in a way, it kind of feels symbiotic that those are the type of guest stars we got to have, and it lands in a pretty special way with me. But I do agree that sometimes when that happens, you know, like on a CSI I remember when they had Justin bieber On as a guest star, and then I think they had Taylor's swift, You're just like, come on, like, you know, even if he did an amazing job, it's still like,

I'm how am I supposed to separate this?

You know?

So I think it can backfire, And I think that's a really interesting point.

Well.

I think speaking of Susan and Morty and Sophie, you realize the reason that Susan is pushing her mom to get back together with her boyfriend, who they clearly have like a low key physical assaulting relationship with each other. I mean, it's kind of when they're beating each other up in the parking lot and Susan has to interfere.

Sophie's biting his shoulder.

I know.

Crazy is because Sophie is saying that she now doesn't have anywhere to live, that she's not with Morty, and she thinks she can move in with Susan, and Susan says, I can't possibly have this. Here's a question, would you let your parents live with you? Is that something you could in your own individual relationship with your parent tolerate?

I will answer yes, I would let my parents live with me. I do think boundaries are obviously very important, but I would answer yes. So found it just so incredible that this was a Susan arc and a Susan storyline and a Susan line when she says that we end up parenting our parents, because as we've talked about with Terry so much, you now very much have stepped into that role for your own parents.

And this morning, this morning, I got the call that my dad needed to go to the dentist and you know, they couldn't solve that themselves.

Like you know, they don't remembery.

One, but what I said, they're ninety one.

Right, and they and they didn't remember that they'd seen a dentist. They didn't remember where the dentist was. They didn't you know, obviously it's part of my caregiving role. But like, yeah, that that you are parenting your your parents for sure, and.

You would never let them live with you.

I could not would that it would.

But that's because you know I and I think I've talked about this somewhat here also, like I had a really not wonderful childhood and and not a wonderful dynamic between my parents. It was a very difficult, complicated, fused, not positive scenario. And they have not really changed. I have changed, and I cannot get sucked into what feels uncomfortable about it the way that I couldn't protect myself from when I was younger and certainly when I was a child. And again, I've also done the work, so there's a lot of forgiveness. I'm not complaining. I'm not a victim, you know.

All of that.

But what I do know is that I couldn't you know, it is about creating boundaries and I couldn't do that. And I am lucky enough to have a choice to be able to care for them on terms that don't feel like they violate my sense of peace.

And Emerson, can we I mean, yeah, I was, because your mom's sitting sitting here.

Yeah.

Luck with this answer, Well, the only answer I could possibly give to this question would be yes.

I mean, it would be a bit complicated to have.

My parents, uh or all live with me, given that they're divorced. And I don't know, like I'd love to imagine a world in which I have a huge enough estate that I could pull that off. Uh, certainly don't have that going for me right now. You know. It's funny this week, actually, for a myriad of different reasons, I ended up staying with my mom for the week I was out of my house, and I have to say I think that we cohabitated together very well. I you know, went in and out through the garage, I did my own thing, We saw each other a few times.

I felt no little nervous at first.

Am I going to feel a kind of pressure that we have to check in with each other about like what we're doing? On our respective days, and that was not the dynamic, and I was really grateful for it, and I was really grateful for the place that we've evolved to in our adult relationship with each other that that could actually feel like being at your house for a bit and living together felt very restorative and actually relaxing to me and not like, oh gosh, I have no of my own personal time.

That said, I.

Will say I think my mom falls on the side of She constantly says to me, I am putting in place all of the things so you do not have to take care of me when I am Gramma and Grandpa's age. And I don't want to, you know, put that on you, but I would, I would accept it, and I think that we would be able to navigate that smoothly.

That is the correct answer.

I got it check.

I think also just as a as an assumption, I think Julie and Susan would be able to live together.

Maybe I think so too.

I I don't know Susan. I think, well, maybe Susan evolves throughout. You know, Susan leans a little more Sophie to me than Terry, so she oh, yes, might Yeah, Susan might drive me crazy or might drive you crazy.

Living with her.

But it's very it's very nice of you to be so generous as a Julie representative.

Yes, yes, yeah, we have the we you know, sticking with the kind of overall theme of parenting and motherhood we mentioned. You mentioned Terry at the top. This spanking storyline, which is interesting for so many reasons obviously, like is it okay to discipline your children your friend's kids, Like how do we fall on that physical discipline in general?

Where do we fall on that? But there's a couple of one. I really thought you have Lynette yet again so desperate for help with her kids, you know, I mean this this theme of her just being overwhelmed by her children is so persistent, you know, it's it's really like the main driver of her in this series. And so she shows up at Breeze and she's like, I put on makeup, I have a dress on, Like, please help.

Me, and she just wants to get a margarita for Christ's sake.

Yeah haven't we all been there? And breathe relents and says, okay, you know, come on in, and then she's she's parenting her, She's parenting Lynette's kids the way she would parent her own, which is very different than Lynette's and she ends up spanking one of the boys and it leads us into this tense poker scene with all the women where they go head to head about is that okay? And Lynette is like absolutely not not okay, And you know, but I thought the whole there's some other undertones here that I thought were really interesting, like Lynette and her empty threats to the boys and them not working is something to face.

Now.

That doesn't mean you should start spanking them as a reaction to that, but like the empty threats in parenthood, children are smart and they will realize, oh oh, this level of authority doesn't actually yield to anything.

That's one of my things that you that I would, you know, offer to people who are raising young children, like you can't do that, like that thing of where you go if you do one more thing, we're going to get up and we're going to leave this restaurant.

And then they do the one more thing. You have to be prepared as the adult because.

What when you make that threat, it means you will also not be eating your dinner and you will not be you know, when you say like we're going to leave the show or we're going to leave the amusement park or whatever it is that you use as that threat. Do not make the threat unless you are willing to do it. And I don't mean it like threat threat with spanking, because I don't agree with that. But I have seen parents go like, you know, if you act to if you throw that thing at the table one more time, we're going to leave this restaurant. And then they don't right then that that.

Just you know, then it's just worthless.

Or it's like the counting, the counting that parents do. It's like, there, I'm going to count to three, and then what happens after three? Often nothing like four and five and six, you know, and you're like, well, okay, how long are you to keep counting?

Yeah, but I will say that this without directly answering this question and kind of skipping over to the end.

I did love the resolve.

Between Lynette and Brie, and I could wish for my own personal life that I had a little bit more of this ability. But what happens between them is they're across the street from each other. They've had all this sort of confrontation about what Breeze done and Linette didn't think was right, and then breez'ze like, well, you're not a good mom because you don't you know, your kids are crazy, and so there's been all this confrontation and basically Linette crosses the street physically and metaphorically, I guess, or or is that the right word? Yeah, symbolically, maybe that's that's better, and and says, you know, hey, I want to apologize, and then bree says, you walking across the street what meant everything to me? And I want

to apologize to you, and I I was so And then they sort of head off into the house to get coffee and laugh about life together. And I felt so envious, I think really of the ease in which they apologize to each other. There was like a mutual respect there, and then they let it go and moved on. And I don't know that I have that tool and I don't love that about myself.

Yeah, and I do you guys? Is that and it? Do you see yourself in confrontation? I was I being able to do that.

I was really moved by that scene too, on the kind of symbolic level that crossing the street stands for of saying, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna be able to let this go and re engage in our friendship with each other. And I think I do pride myself actually in feeling like I have the ability to let things go, sometimes with great difficulty. I mean sometimes I think, you know, tools like therapy like that can be a really helpful place to really investigate what is coming up for me that is making this so hard for me to let go or to forgive someone. And almost always it is not about the other person. It is about whatever it's reflecting in myself. That's a character trait in myself that I don't like. I mean, I was actually

talking to a friend of mine who spent some time in rehab, and he was saying, like, oh, a classic rehab phrase is if you spot it, you got it. And it's kind of something that I think, Andrew, You've said your sister mentioning that, like, if someone's really bothering you, what is it about yourself that you don't like about yourself?

That's the right that person is bothering in you. So I think keeping all that in mind can make it easier to forgive and move on from things. But I think the other thing I remind myself when I'm struggling to let something go is who is benefiting or who is being hurt by me holding onto this? And honestly, it's me I one being hurt by holding onto it, And if it is someone who I have an important relationship with, I am the one benefiting from letting it go.

And it's not actually about them. They don't really have a choice, and if I hang on to something or not, so they're gonna have to go on with their life regardless, and I'm the one that's going to suffer with holding this arbitrary line that then keeps these like negative feelings trapped in my body and my soul and myself. And I think thinking about that lets me practice forgiveness a lot more in my life. And I was moved by this scene too for that reason.

And I just think it's really cool that we're getting to rewatch Desperate Housewives and not only be entertained and not be reminded by the memories and all the things that come with it, but also sometimes we get these beautiful little life lessons. And watching this scene made me think that I should pay attention more in my life when an apology doesn't come in the form of the words i'm sorry, because I think oftentimes people apologize in other ways, but we're waiting, or we're hung up or I'm hung up on the idea of hearing the words i'm sorry.

But it can be incredible.

It's so much more powerful if it comes in the form of something else, like in Lynette, just merely crossing the street and physically moving closer to breathe that was enough, and I thought that was really powerful. I want to pay more attention to that, because I think that we talk about this all the time in life and in relationships, and things that comes up like are you someone who can say sorry? Or like can you admit I'm wrong?

Right?

Like that comes up all the time in social dynamics, and I like to think that I'm pretty good at saying I'm sorry. But I also just want to make sure I'm not missing or dismissing the moments in my relationships where people often show me an awareness of wrongdoing or something that hurt me, but doesn't necessarily come in the words i'm sorry. And I thought that was cool, that that's how that storyline kind of wrapped itself up and a really insight into their friendship.

It's a very good example, especially very relevant today. I feel like, again, there's just so much vision and so much judgment and so much like people standing in their cement shoes on the side of the street of like I'm right, and then on the other side they're like I'm right, and and nobody's willing to step out of their cement shoes and cross the street and say you know what, like let's just move on.

I think the other storyline that involves Brie that this is making me think of the idea of there are other ways to say I'm sorry or to maybe admit fault is.

Brie is really struggling with.

If she was a bad mother, and if she knows her son, and like what role she has taken to driving her son to be now at this youth camp. And I found it so interesting and moving and sad the scene when she's trying to get ready to go to the counseling and she goes, I don't even know what his favorite color is.

And she knows her.

Husband, she knows Rex's, she knows her daughter's, and I was curious.

I mean, to both of you, but what do you.

Feel like the important ways to know your child are? Because I kind of almost went, I don't know that it's important to know, Like the favorite color feels so trivial, but obviously it stands for something so much.

Right, But she says, She says, I should if I'm a good mother, I should know everything about my son. I should know everything about my son, and I should always know how to help him.

I mean, and boy, is she in for a bigger surprise of something she doesn't know about her son when and.

I actually was like, I feel very differently about that. I feel like it's important for you. I'm just speaking to you because you're my daughter and you're here. Like I've always felt like it was important for you to have privacy. I felt like it was in I feel like it's like egotistical or you know, for me to think like I should be privy to knowing everything about you.

You know, I look forward to when you share things with me. I feel like the thing I concentrated on, what I thought being a good mother was was instilling in you the characteristics of confidence and value and self esteem and patience and commitment and work ethic and problem solving and compassion that you could then take these qualities and characteristic traits of a person and go live.

A good life.

Like that's what I felt like my job was as a mother not to know everything about you.

I think that's really beautiful.

And I also think, I mean, obviously I'm not a parent, but when I think about the type of parent I want to be one day, it's not the parent who knows everything about my kid. It's the parent who creates a relationship and a home environment that makes my kid feel safe sharing anything with me about themselves. Because I agree with you, mom, I do think it is a very egotistical stance to take of like, well, I made you, and so I should know everything about you. You know, our children are their own individuals in and of themselves, with their own beliefs and agendas and things that they will experience and observe about the world. And it's like, who are you to assume that just because you're their parent,

you're entitled to immediately know all of that. And I think the place that maybe Bree could have focused more attention would be creating an environment that made Andrew feel inspired to share these parts of himself with her.

And you know what causes that is listening, Like people need to listen, you know, parents.

Children will listen.

I was going to say, wow, it is the perfect title for this episode. I mean really and yeah, I think that those are The scene at that poker table where with Lynette and Breed kind of accusing each other of being bad mothers was a rough one to watch, but where it led was really beautiful and you know, allowed us to kind of ruminate on what does make a good parent? What are the lessons that we hope we can, you know, pass on to our children about parenting.

And I'm just so I'm so lucky that I get such a front row seat to your guys as dynamic as a mother and daughter. It's such a beautiful spot for me to be at this chapter of my life. So thanks for being so open and sharing all of those things.

I'm so lucky that we get this environment where we get to share and listen and create a safe space with each other. And I'm so grateful to our listeners who are tuning in each week to.

Listen to us, and I hope.

That you all feel continually inspired to share your thoughts with us too, because we're really here to listen to what you have to say.

Yeah, thank you for joining us once again, and we'll see you next week because

We are desperately devoted to you, so desperate, desperate, desperate and devoted

Good Mothers, Bad Partners, and Painful Punishments (S1 E18 "Children Will Listen)

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