Netanyahu Criticized Over Israel’s Fighting on Multiple Fronts

0:00 Ein kurzer Hinweis vorweg. Diese Folge ist in Englisch. Im Krisenmodus wird nun häufiger zweisprachig erscheinen. In June 2025, the Middle East is on edge like never before. Israeli missiles hit Tehran, exploding right in the heart of the Iranian capital. In response, Iran fires rockets at Tel Aviv. Meanwhile, the situation in Gaza keeps getting worse.

0:26 The Israeli army is also striking targets in southern Lebanon and Syria, calling it self-defense. Die Welt ist kassierend, diskutiert, was passiert und fühlt sich immer und mehr unbeziehbar. In Israel, in einem Staten von Emergenzüge ist die neue Normal. So, wo ist Israel jetzt? Und was ist die Region als ein?

0:48 Nach zwei Jahren von Konflikt, die Israel-Geräusche sind in einem Schadenverlust. Das ist das, was die Region hier ist heute. In Crisis Mode, the podcast from Conflict Zones with Jan Jessen. Welcome to In Crisis Mode, the podcast from the frontlines and conflict zones. I'm Jan Jessen, political editor at NRZ and a war and crisis reporter for the Funker Media Group.

1:27 You've probably seen my reports in NRZ, WRZ, the Berliner Morgan Post, or the Hamburger Abendblatt. I was recently back in Israel, right after the 12-day war between Israel and Iran. I visited Tel Aviv, Beersheba, and the West Bank. Und natürlich, das war nicht der erste Mal die Funker Media Group war da.

1:47 Seit dem Hamas Terror attack auf Israel in 2023, wir haben die Krieg in Gaza und die wideren Konflikten in der Region. In diesem episode, du hörst von einem Land, in einem constanten Stade, der noch immer noch zu halten, um sich zu halten, um die Leben zu halten. Amongst sie ist Ari Shalikar, former Spokesperson für die Israeli-Armee, jetzt ein Buch. His latest book is Survival Struggle, A War Diary from the Middle East.

2:13 We're also joined by Usama Antar, a political scientist from Gaza, Anita Aviv, an Israeli author and education expert, whose new book is Solidarity Means Action, Israeli Civil Society After the Massacre, and Sulaiman Abu Daya, a sociologist and Palestinian from East Jerusalem. What they say often stands in stark contrast, but that's the reality of this conflict. There are a thousand perspectives here, and that's exactly why it's so important to hear them all.

2:42 On October 7th, 2023, Hamas fighters and allied militias carried out the deadliest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust. They killed over 1,200 people and kidnapped more than 250 to Gaza. Since then, the whole region has been changed forever. Gaza is almost completely destroyed. The Israeli army is still attacking southern Lebanon. The Houthis continue to strike from Yemen. und der Konflikt mit Iran ist weit von über.

3:10 Arya Shalikar, die Armee ist der Spokesperson, wenn der Krieg startet wurde, sagt es nicht nur ein locales Schirmisch. Es hat sich viel größer von dem Anfang. Starting on October 7th, oder auf der latest, October 8th, 2023, Israel wurde in eine Art of Survival War. Das begann, of course, mit der Attack von Hamas und Islamic Jihad, zwei terrorist-organisations. Es war sozusagen ein Terror Regime, aus dem Gaza Strip, mit der Hoffnung, dass andere Terrorist-Organisationen in der Region führten.

3:47 Und sie haben. Da kamen die Palestinian-Rocket-Firte von Lebanon, Hezbollah, dann kamen von Syrien, von Yemen und sogar von Iran. Dann kamen die Ärzte in April und October 2024. So at some point, Israel found itself in a multidimensional war, one where, on one side, there is a Jewish state, and on the other, more or less seven terrorist entities.

4:13 These range from organizations and regimes to states and militias. But all of them are ultimately operating under the same conductor. And that is, of course, Tehran, the Mullah regime, the so-called Axis of Terror, the Shiite Terror Axis, which includes Hamas and Islamic Jihad as well. Their goal, of course, and they've said this repeatedly, whether it's Hamas, Hezbollah or the Ayatollah in Tehran, is the elimination of the Jewish state.

4:43 What Ari means when he talks about the Shiite Terror Axis is basically what's often called the Axis of Resistance against Israel. That's mainly Iran and the groups it supports. The Iranian regime, whose official doctrine includes the destruction of Israel, which they call the Zionist Entity, sees Israel as a big problem in the region that they want to get rid of.

5:06 Iran is widely seen as the main sponsor of terrorism in the Middle East. Durch ihre Revolutionäre Gäste finanzieht sie ein paar Gruppen, die Israel verabschieden. Das betrifft die Houthis in Yemen, Hezbollah in Lebanon, Militien in Irak und Syrien, und natürlich Hamas in Gaza. Auch wenn Hamas ein Sunni-Grupp ist, bekommt sie noch viel Unterstützung vom Iran.

5:28 Alltags machen diese Gruppen den Axis der Resistenz gegen Israel. Und das spricht Arja, wenn er Shiite Terror-Axis sagt. Das haben wir mit Hezbollah geschafft ein Jahr, nachdem die Welt geschwiegen hat. Wir achieved that with Hezbollah. A year after the world stayed silent about the attacks from Lebanon, where hundreds of thousands of Israelis in northern Israel could no longer go about their normal lives, many of them were evacuated, torn from their own homes and relocated somewhere else within Israel.

5:59 No one in the world cared to put Hezbollah in its place. And only when Israel struck, on the 17th and 18th of September last year, with the Baipie operation, the Page operation, the Walkie-Talkie operation, eliminated Hezbollah's general staff, eliminated Hassan Nasrallah, then Safi al-Din, Ibrahim Akhil, and before that, Fuad Shukr.

6:23 Only then did a ceasefire come into effect. Yes, that's the message. Only from a position of strength in the Middle East. You still have to use the whip against these radical Islamist-fascist hordes who have no interest in building bridges with us. They don't want dialogue. They want to destroy us." What Arya just said really sums up how a lot of Israelis I've talked to over the past few months feel.

6:51 There's a kind of relentless determination in that view. And honestly, you can understand why. The images from October 7th are burned into the Israeli collective memory. Kibbutzim attacked, homes destroyed, women kidnapped and raped. Und dann ist der NOVA Festival, das Elektronik Musik Festival, das war auf 7.

7:10 September, wo rund 300 junge Menschen wurden getötet. Diese Horrors haben nicht vergessen in Israel. Viele Israelis sagen, jetzt müssen wir alle unsere Enemies. Das beginnt mit Hamas in Gaza, aber auch militant Gruppen in den West Bank. Es ist wichtig, dass die West Bank ist meistens von Israel, und radical Jewish settlers da oft attack Palestinians. So far, over 900 Palestinians have been killed in the West Bank.

7:38 People also say, we need to confront Hezbollah in southern Lebanon, reduce threats from Syria, attacks coming from the south, and quite a few voices even say we should go all the way with Iran. You've probably heard about the 12-day war between Israel and Iran that kicked off on June 13th when Israel bombed Iranian nuclear sites.

7:59 Iran responded with strikes on Israeli territory. There were earlier clashes back in April and October 2024, but those caused only limited damage. This June, though, things escalated. Ballistic missiles exploded right in Tel Aviv, and Iranian rockets hit Beersheba. That had never happened before, and it shook a lot of people I talked to on the ground.

8:23 Some Israelis told me, for the first time, we realized how vulnerable we really are, that we can be hit, that our air defense systems, Iron Dome, Arrow 3, David's Sling, which together form a layered shield over Israel, aren't invincible. And if Iran attacks, the damage could be real. Even during my last visit, after a ceasefire between Iran and Israel was announced, many were saying, we should have finished the job.

8:52 We should have toppled the regime in Tehran. We should have completely destroyed Iran's nuclear program. But as far as anyone can tell, that didn't happen. The Iranian nuclear program seems to be paused for now, but not destroyed. That's why many Israelis I spoke with, like Arya Shalikar, think Israel should have hit even harder.

9:12 Of course, many see things completely differently, especially Palestinians, who suffer the most in this conflict. Usama Antar, a political scientist who lived in Gaza for years and left in December 2023, shortly after the war started, says this isn't just war to him, it's systematic destruction. His family still lives in Gaza, and for him, that's the reality on the ground.

9:48 To be honest, it's become completely clear by now. Israel is following a plan to expel the entire Palestinian population. Every time we think, okay, now Israel must have achieved its war goals in Gaza, we realize it's still not over. There are always new hidden objectives. And the result? More operations, more deaths, more civilian suffering. Wir sagen immer, dass das war, das kann nicht weitergehen.

10:17 Aber Israel continue, bombings, destruction, deliberate attacks auf Menschen, every single day. Wie viele mehr civilians will Israel töten? Und es ist nicht nur über die Bombs in Gaza. Menschen sind deliberately starved. No Medizin ist in den Gehen. And when aid does get through, which only happens after massive international pressure, it's just a tiny amount.

10:47 Then the Israeli army tells the truck drivers exactly where to go, and those places are often dangerous. Armed groups are waiting there to steal the aid. Just imagine that. The signal that food distribution is starting isn't a loudspeaker, it's real gunfire. Das Zeichen dafür, dass die Essenverteilung beginnt, ist kein Lautsprecher, sondern echtes Schuss.

11:16 Ich bin zu den Gaza Strip ein paar Mal, aber das war bevor der Krieg begann. Ich wollte die Situation für mich selbst sehen. Und ja, Dinge waren bereits kompliziert dann. Aber eine Sache, die ich immer wieder zurückkehren habe, ist die Description der Gaza als eine große, open-air prison. Natürlich, die Bewegung war stark, aber ehrlich gesagt, Leben war nicht so schwer wie die Menschen denken.

11:38 There were restaurants, some decent hotels, and for many daily life was still somewhat manageable. Before the Hamas terror attack in October 2023, quite a few Palestinians from Gaza were allowed to work in Israel. There was a slow shift toward easing restrictions. But that all ended with the attack. And now, if you look at the images coming out of Gaza or talk to people still there, it's clear. The situation is catastrophic.

12:04 After nearly two years of war, whole parts of the Strip, Khan Yunis, Rafa, Beit Hanun, are in ruins. The scale of destruction is hard to put into words. We've already covered this in earlier episodes, including Voices from the Ground. We'll link to those in the show notes. The UN now says nearly a quarter of the 2.1 million people in Gaza are going hungry.

12:28 Israel says Hamas is preventing aid from being distributed. Critics argue that's just a cover, and that's really one of the major problems in this war. We don't know exactly what's going on inside Gaza. There's very little transparency. Western journalists and media outlets have been calling on Israel to allow access, but the government says it's too dangerous under the laws of war.

12:51 Honestly, I think that's nonsense. We're war reporters, we know the risks, and we'd absolutely go in if we were allowed. That's our job, to see and report things firsthand. But instead, we have to rely on voices from inside Gaza and aid workers who are still there, und die historien sie erzählen, die Videos und Fotos sie senden, machen es painfully klar wie bad die Dinge wirklich sind.

13:14 Just einen Tag bevor wir das Video recorded, Israel respondte zu growing international pressure. Über 100 aidorganisationen sind auf die Begründung für ein ceasefire und full humanitarian access. 30 countries, including die UK, Canada, Japan und Australia, haben jetzt urged Israel zu agree zu a truce und zu let aid in.

13:33 Und die Leute ich regelmäßig in Kontakt mit in Gaza sagen, dass die Situation die Wurzeln wird heute Morgen. In response, Israel annunced was sie z.B. die Humanitarian Pause ist. In certain areas, fighting is supposed to stop for 10 hours a day, so aid can be distributed. Supplies are also being airdropped into Gaza, a sign really of just how intense the pressure on Israel has become.

13:57 But Usama Antar doesn't just criticize Israel. He also takes aim at the international community and especially at Germany. Germany in particular remained silent. The polite statements from the German government that they're concerned about the situation in Gaza and that they urge Israel to allow humanitarian aid are meaningless.

14:24 They have no real impact. They're just empty words, like a sedative that calms you down but doesn't actually help. What's really needed is a clear ultimatum. Only real pressure can bring about change. because if there are no consequences, people become reckless and they just keep going. And that's exactly what's happening right now. Israel seems to believe the world will eventually forget all of this.

14:54 But that's not going to happen. The internet doesn't forget. The images and videos of what has happened in Gaza, they'll be around for a long time and those responsible for these war crimes must be held accountable. Before an international court. Whether people like Benjamin Netanyahu or his ministers Itamar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich, who really can be called far-right extremists, will ever face international justice, I honestly doubt it.

15:28 But what's happening in Gaza right now, as Osama Antar said, are images that will leave a deep mark on the global conscience. And I have to say, in the beginning, I felt Israel's military response to the October 7th Hamas attack was justified. After all, this was the deadliest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust.

15:47 A military reaction was inevitable, and yes, sadly, so were civilian casualties. Hamas launches its attacks from within neighborhoods, schools, hospitals. It operates from civilian infrastructure, in plain clothes, and uses people as human shields. That's part of its strategy. Hamas wants images of civilian suffering.

16:07 Es benutzt sie für die Propaganda. Es weiß genau, was es ist. Und die Waffen-Wahrer ist immer brutal, immer messy. Die Zivilisten sind verloren. Aber still, was wir sehen über die letzten Wochen, ist weit über das. Ich denke, die Regierung der Israel hat einen sehr starken Fehler gemacht. Starving die Bevölkerung als Teil einer Krieg-Stratik, ist klar, ist ein Krieg-Krime.

16:30 Kein Argument ändert das. Was passiert in Gaza ist jetzt verrückt. Man kann nicht mehr Zutaten, Wasser, Mediziner für über 2 Millionen Menschen und dann überprüfen, wie ein so-called Humanitarianer Stadt in southern Gaza, wo 600,000 Menschen werden. Das ist nicht eine Lösung. Das ist nicht eine Krieg-Taktik. Das ist etwas anderes, entweder. Und wir nicht vergessen, dass das Fallout das hat, globally.

16:56 Es ist bereits ein Vorteil für die Jewish-Verteilung der Welt. Es gibt ammünion zu Anti-Semiten, die nur für eine Grund für ein Grund für ihre Hände zu geben. In meinem Fall, Israel's leadership hat den Land in einem military- und moral-dead-end. Das sagt, Kritikism ist growing, inside Israel, too. Take Anita Haviv, für example. Sie ist eine Wrichter, aus Vienna, die in den 1970s war, in Israel.

17:22 Wir haben ihn schon erwähnt. Sie hat sie vorhin geschrieben, Solidarity Means Action, Israeli Civil Society After the Massacre. Sie kennt die Land intimately. Und sie ist sehr anders von Arya Schalikar. Sie spricht über eine Regierung, die sich in den Menschen zu verlieren, über eine Gesellschaft, die sich in einem breaking point zu erreichen.

17:41 Und sie ist auf die Menschen, die eine klar-dichtung zwischen den actions of this far-right government and the broader Israeli society. These interests aren't just different, they actually contradict each other. In my view, this government is built solely around Netanyahu's personal interests. The government is stuck in a dead end, and yet not really. Sie wird sich, dass es nach der Sommer-Recess wird, weil die ultra-Orthodox-Parteien wiederholen die Coalition.

18:21 Bei dann, Netanyahu wird sicher, dass die Strictly Religiösen noch nicht in die Armee servieren. What Anita means is that Netanyahu has been facing serious domestic problems, and that started well before the Hamas attack on October 7th, 2023. You might remember those massive street protests, when Netanyahu tried to push through a judicial overhaul.

18:49 Millions of Israelis took to the streets, feeling like he was steering the country toward autocracy. People were deeply worried about the state of democracy in Israel. Then came the Hamas attack, and all of that was put on hold. The country pulled together, saying, First, we have to deal with the external enemy.

19:07 But Netanyahu still has a big personal problem. He's under investigation for corruption. As long as he's prime minister, he has immunity. But if his government collapses, that protection goes away, and he could end up in court or even in prison. So he's also fighting for his political and legal survival.

19:24 And that, Anita suggests, might be part of why this war is still dragging on. Meanwhile, protests inside Israel are growing Protests against the way the war is being conducted And against how long it's been going on On one hand, because there are still about 50 Israeli hostages in Gaza Most are presumed dead But their families still want to bring their bodies home To bury them properly and have closure On the other hand, many Israelis are now deeply affected By the suffering of Palestinian civilians At recent demonstrations, some protesters held up photos of Palestinian children killed in Gaza.

19:59 And in a powerful act of solidarity, there was a mirror protest in Gaza itself. Palestinians holding up pictures of Israeli children who had died. That was incredibly brave and honestly very moving. Anita says this clearly shows, when it comes to Gaza, what many people in Israeli society want is fundamentally different from what their government is doing.

20:21 All the polls show that a large majority of people support bringing the hostages home and ending the war. The war with Iran is seen a bit differently by many Israelis. But the reality is, the soldiers can't just keep going forever, especially not the reservists. And many of them simply won't want to anymore.

20:46 It's no coincidence that tens of thousands of Israelis have already left the country. At the same time, despite all the chaos and darkness, I still see hope. Nicht in politik, oder durch any political leadership, aber in civil society. Die eine reale Sorge, als ich sehe es, ist die Kraft der civilen Gesellschaft, in den Städten und in den Städten zu den Städten und in den Städten zu den Städten.

21:14 Die in den Städten von den Städten, die in den Städten, in den Städten, in den Städten, in den Städten. Wenn Anita spricht über die Städte, oder Binnenflüchtlinge, als sie sie nennt, she means two groups in particular. First, the people who had to flee their homes in the Kibbutzim that were attacked and destroyed by Hamas and other militants on October 7, 2023.

21:37 And second, residents in northern Israel who've been under constant threat from Hezbollah, drone strikes, mortar attacks, pretty much since that same day. All in all, around 10,000 Israelis are still displaced inside their own country. And honestly, that's something that doesn't come up much in international conversations.

21:56 But it's a big deal. These people are living temporarily in other kibbutzim, in private homes or in hotels. And as long as the situation in Gaza and up north near Lebanon remains unstable, they're not going home. They're still living as displaced persons. Anita points out something important here. The fact that Israeli society has absorbed these people, housed them, supported them, it shows a real sense of solidarity. Es ist eine Art der sozialen Resilienz, die nicht immer noch gehalten wird, besonders außerhalb der Lande.

22:29 In der gleichen Zeit, Anita sieht mehr und mehr Menschen in Israel starten zu sprechen, openly und courageously, gegen die Regierung, sagen, Enough, das kann nicht passieren, und eine Lösung, das sogar möglich ist Israel's Medienlandschaft. Für alle ihre Flaws, es ist immer sehr pluralistisch. You've got newspapers like Haaretz reporting critically on the war, including on alleged war crimes by the Israeli military.

22:54 You've got NGOs like Bitzalem, Peace Now, and Breaking the Silence calling out human rights violations, whether they come from the army or from settlers in the West Bank. Anita believes that this kind of internal criticism is one of the things that sets Israel apart from many of its neighbors, where that kind of open dissent just wouldn't be tolerated.

23:13 In some places it could even be dangerous, but of course not everyone sees it that way. Sulaiman Abu Daya, a Palestinian sociologist who lives in East Jerusalem, looks at the situation from a very different angle. From his point of view, Israel is overestimating its own strength and underestimating the toll all of this is taking on its own society.

23:34 Israel ist in einer precarischen Situation, politisch, diplomatisch, moralisch, trotz seiner militärischen Stärke. I think Israel is in a very precarious position, politically. Diplomatically and morally, despite its military strength and what some might call its military successes in places like Lebanon against Iran and its influence in Syria, including its role as a supposed und die Drugs.

24:03 Still, ich glaube, Israel ist überstreckt ihre Kraft und seine Grenzen. Es ist auch ein Schraub auf die Gesellschaft, die nicht nur als Dividend sind, weil es jetzt nicht nur die vielen Waren und Militärsfehlungen sind. Aber ich glaube, dass es auch in Israel gibt, led by Netanyahu, und seine extreme, sogar Faschist-Allies, wie Ben-Gvir und Smotrich, who want to fundamentally change the identity of the country and its society, and that's creating a deep rift within Israeli society itself.

24:34 Die britischen Verbündeten wie Bink-Wir und Smotrich, die die bisherige Identität der Gesellschaft und Israels verändern wollen, das führt zu einer tiefen Spaltung innerhalb der israelischen Gesellschaften. What Sulaiman Abu Daya means when he talks about changing Israel's identity is this. Figures like Itamar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich They're not just politicians, they're far-right extremists We're talking about messianic, apocalyptic types Jewish extremists, plain and simple Take Ben-Gvir, for example.

25:09 Before he became Minister of National Security, he was actually convicted for supporting terrorism. And he used to have a portrait of Baruch Goldstein hanging in his living room. Goldstein was a Jewish doctor who murdered 29 Palestinian worshippers in Hebron in the 1990s. That's the kind of person Ben-Gavir openly admired.

25:30 So yes, both Ben-Gavir and Smotrich are extremists. And it feels like Netanyahu is basically their hostage. That's my impression. Netanyahu is fighting for his political survival and he needs them. Without their support, his coalition collapses and if that happens, he could face serious legal trouble, especially if he loses in new elections.

25:54 What's more, Ben Gavir and Smotrich don't hide what they want. They're very clear. They support the idea of a greater Israel. That means the entire West Bank and even the Gaza Strip should be Jewish territory, fully settled by Jews. They've openly talked about removing Palestinians from these areas altogether.

26:17 You might remember those outrageous plans from late 2023, early 2024, the idea of emptying Gaza completely, forcibly relocating the 2 million people who live there to other countries. Even Trump supported the idea at one point. Those plans have gone quiet for now, mostly because no country wants to take in 2 million Palestinians.

26:40 But the idea hasn't disappeared. That vision is still very real for people like Ben-Gavir and Smotrich. Their goal is clear. They want Israel to become an exclusively Jewish state. Right now Israel is still a very diverse country. There are many Muslim Arab citizens who live there and are free to practice their religion.

27:01 But people like Ben-Gavir and Smotrich want to change that completely and they believe violence is the way to do it. That's how they think they can turn this fantasy of a greater Israel into reality. According to Sulaiman, this path Israel is on is already having international consequences. He believes the country's image as a small threatened democracy is being destroyed.

27:25 On top of that, Israel is no longer seen internationally as the vulnerable, endangered state it once was. More and more countries and people around the world believe that what Israel is doing, especially in Gaza, amounts to genocide, to war crimes, And it's becoming impossible to justify. I think even some of Israel's closest allies, yes, even in Germany, are starting to question this policy.

28:00 You could say Israel now stands morally exposed. That's exactly what I was getting at earlier. I mean, I really worry about this too. We can't forget, Israel is surrounded by enemies, by states and groups that have wanted to wipe it off the map since 1948, since the country was founded. But with what's happening right now, especially in the Gaza Strip, Israel is rapidly losing international reputation.

28:33 And honestly, it seems to me that the Israeli government has maneuvered itself into a military dead end. I get the impression they don't really have a plan for what comes next. No Plan B, C, or D for the time after these military operations. And so far, none of their major strategic goals have really been achieved.

28:53 Iran's nuclear program hasn't been destroyed. The regime in Tehran is still standing. Hezbollah hasn't been pushed back beyond the Letani River in Lebanon, which runs about 30 kilometers from Israel's northern border. They still seem quite active in that area. In Gaza, Hamas is still capable of carrying out attacks. In the West Bank, things are still extremely volatile.

29:16 Jewish settlers continue to attack Palestinian villages, including Christian ones. Just a few weeks ago, they even attacked an Israeli military outpost. People are dying there nearly every week. Meanwhile, the Houthis in Yemen are still firing rockets toward Israel. And in southern Syria, Israel is carrying out operations to try to prevent terror groups from entrenching themselves near its border.

29:39 Since Assad's fall, Iran has lost one of its key allies in the region. But Israel is trying to create a buffer zone there. So far, though, it hasn't been particularly successful. And as I said, international criticism is growing. Even Israel's closest allies are starting to distance themselves from Netanyahu's government.

29:57 Just today, on the day we're recording this, Trump threatened Netanyahu, saying he needs to end the war in Gaza because people are starving, and that's unacceptable. So when even your most loyal partners start to pull away, that's not a good sign for your long-term future. At the same time, Israel's government is still pushing ahead with plans for new settlements in the West Bank, 22 of them to be exact.

30:20 That's clearly a violation of international law and it makes the overall outlook even harder. Right now, there's really no realistic peace perspective. And then there's the question of what's going to happen with Lebanon. There are hints that Israel may be preparing new strikes there. Just yesterday, again, a top Israeli official publicly threatened Iran with renewed attacks. So the whole situation is incredibly tense.

30:44 And honestly, I think Israel has boxed itself in. I'm really placing my hope in Israeli civil society that people there will push their own government to stop and think about where all this is going. The public seems exhausted, tired of fear, full of doubt. And in the end, it's also about bringing the Israeli hostages home, those who are still alive and those who've died, so that their families can find closure.

31:11 Right now, though, the situation just looks bleak. And no one really knows what happens if Hamas is actually defeated. Will the violence stop? Or will the cycle just repeat? This is such an emotionally charged conflict, there are almost no simple answers. In my reporting, I've noticed how extreme the polarization is.

31:31 On one side, I've been called anti-Semitic. On the other, I've been called a Zionist puppet. This black-and-white thinking, this total lack of empathy, Das ist etwas, ich habe nicht gesehen, in einem anderen Konflikt in der Welt. Es macht es viel schwerer. Und wie ich gesagt habe, es gibt keine easyen Lösungen.

31:48 Wenn es ein Feier ist, in Gaza wird, wie lange es dauert. Especially wenn die Settlemente Expansion in den West Bank. France hat gerade gesehen, Palestine als ein Staat. Aber das Staat ist nur auf paper. In der Ende, die meisten Leute, auf beide Seiten, wollen sie in peace leben, ihre Familien in Sicherheit und Dignität. How we get there, though, that's the big question.

32:12 Some Palestinians say Israel has to go. Some Israelis say we have to impose our will by force. Others just want reconciliation. Who will ultimately prevail? No one knows. That question is wide open, and that's where we'll leave it for now. This episode was produced by Alexander Baumeister, who's also a journalist with the Funke Media Group. If you like our work, follow us, rate us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening.

32:42 It really helps people find us. Thanks for tuning in. Take care and see you next time. Ciao.