Pastor Megan Madsen: Creation, Confession, and Coca-Cola

0:28 Welcome, welcome, welcome to a new episode of The Holy Club. We have another Methodist on Monday here with me. And today I'm joined by a dear colleague and friend, Pastor Megan Madsen from Spokane, Washington. So hi, Megan. Hi, everyone. Hi, Damien. Good to see you. Good to see you. Yeah, we hardly see each other lately.

0:55 No one warns you ahead of time that having a baby suddenly your calendar is full of just baby Baby and poop, Yep That is true I had to change his diaper while on a phone call with the district superintendent this morning Oh nice, Just leads me to a question for our German listeners and who are living in a different system Do we have in Washington something like parental leave or are you allowed from the Methodist Church to take so and so, much weeks off or so? So, in the United States there is not guaranteed parental leave.

1:43 Okay, can we listen to that? We have to state that real quick. In the United States there is no guaranteed. Let's be clear. Pro-life is... Am I allowed to be mean? Pro-life is just a term used to be anti-abortion and a lot of folks who claim pro-life, not all, but a lot of folks who claim that title don't actually care what happens after birth.

2:14 So there is that. There is a federally protected in the United States, like your job, you're guaranteed a position equivalent if you take time off. So there's like, In the United States, there's job protection, but no guaranteed paid leave or anything like that. In the United Methodist Church, we are guaranteed a quarter of a year.

2:45 So depending on how you count that, that could be 12 weeks or 13 weeks. Um and then in the state of washington where you and i both are located um there is a paid family leave guaranteed for all persons who work in the state um where the state actually pays a certain portion of your salary up to i think like up to 80 depending on how much you make and some other factors.

3:12 So yeah that is, basically how that works well that's pretty close to the German situation as far as I understand so many of our listeners especially German speaking ones don't know, who you are okay why would they not know Ja, warum würde ich nicht? By the way, you don't see this, but Megan is younger than I am, which is rare in the Methodist Church with pastors, right?

3:47 There are young pastors here, quite a lot actually in our area. So we have an icebreaker question of my host colleague Sarah. She loves that question because she is the most United Methodist nerd I've ever met in my life. And her favorite question is always, what is your favorite hymn from our United Methodist hymnal.

4:11 I have always loved the hymn, Be Thou My Vision. It is my favorite. But kind of like tongue-in-cheek, I love Up From the Grave He Arose, just because it's so funny. It's like such a, I don't know, the progression of it always makes me laugh. But on a serious note, Be Thou My Vision is my favorite hymn.

4:32 Is it the Up From the Grave He Arose? He Arose with the mighty triumphant voice. He Arose. I should have let it sing next Easter I'm not sure if I have sung that before, but yeah cool Bieder My Vision is also in our German hymnal, it's called Was sich ja träumte, it's a beautiful, hymnal and I love that too it's just every time I have the chance I just put it in the bulletin oh I do too I love that but you didn't grow up a United Methodist so how did you become a United Methodist And where did you come from?

5:10 So I actually grew up Presbyterian, PCUSA. So for the non-American listeners, PCUSA is the more quote-unquote progressive branch. But I grew up in a very rural, conservative community in northern Idaho. So northern Idaho is directly east of Washington State. Zwischen Washington and Montana, about two hours south of the Canadian border and, um, beautiful location. So grateful for, um, my growing up years.

5:51 Um, but I grew up in a Presbyterian church and then I started confirmation. Um, and, uh. As we were learning about Reformed Theology, it just did not resonate with me. And it became very apparent to me that that was not how I experienced or understood God. And so I kind of just stopped attending confirmation and just quit.

6:18 Um and then um in my town uh in a lot of rural communities there's usually like one youth group that most students go to at a single church and that happened to be at the church in the nazarene in my hometown and so i started attending there really regularly um made a lot of friends um was experiencing you know being discipled and um mentored and it was in the church in nazarene church camp that I experienced like a call to ministry for the first time.

6:49 My youth pastor was a really significant seminal voice in my faith and faith development. And so I kind of pursued that call to ministry through that tradition, which the Church of Nazarene split out of Methodism in the late 1890s, actually, over issues of definitions of sanctification. It was a big part of it.

7:20 Oh, I thought I would have expected like a bigger problem, like, I don't know, women ordination or homosexuality or anything like that, right? So women's ordination was one of the reasons. Und die andere Grunde war der Definition der Doctrine der Entfernung der Sanctivität. Und so die Church der Nazarene hält das Grunde.

7:43 Holds that entire sanctification is not just possible, but attainable, likely even expected before death. Okay. And they nuance that in different ways than we do in the United Methodist Church. But they were also very pro-women's ordination, and so were actually ordaining women before the Methodist Church was.

8:10 I didn't know that. Okay. From the very beginning. um you wouldn't know that because um they don't practice that and like they still are sorry i they still are um on paper very pro women's ordination but in practice it doesn't happen as frequently as it does in other traditions um and it is because on paper they are wesleyan in structure.

8:38 Much of their structure is very similar to United Methodism. They work on the Quadrennium. They have a very similar structure to their equivalent of the Book of Discipline. But in practice, that denomination tends to be very theologically conservative in their local um so i i think other folks have said on um on this podcast that um in the united states in united methodism that pastors tend to be a bit more um left-leaning or progressive than our congregations as a whole in the united states um in you would have to move that why do you think that is so.

9:24 I think it's because the general American Christian culture is often tied to a certain social, political idea of religion that is often tied to conservatism. And that has to do with how American holiness movement played out in the United States. Um so where you know john wesley methodism comes out of this unity of personal piety and social holiness right that as we grow in faith and connection and unity um our sanctification if we talk about the process of growing in holiness right um as we work out our salvation on an individual basis that always leads to the communal response of social holiness as well The unity of those things.

10:18 In American holiness, the emphasis upon, and this movement kind of started in the 1800s. If you've heard of like George Whitefield and those sorts of folks, this kind of movement. Emphasis on social, on personal conversion, this emphasis on personal salvation. And so you would have camp meetings and this proclamation of personal holiness, right?

10:48 So being teetotaler, anti-alcohol, being anti-things. So the American holiness traditions often say we don't drink, cuss, or chew or go with girls who do. It's kind of like one of the joking phrases that they use. I've never heard that before. Ja, so die Idee, dass Personal Piety, die die Definition des Holiness, kind of dominated die Cultural Landschaft.

11:16 Und als die Stream, die Bekanen, United Methodismus, became mehr educated in der Klerge, What we know is that as you develop your faith and cut your teeth theologically, wrestling with critical thought and those sorts of things, what we see in American politics is that the more educated someone tends to be at a collegial level, the more progressive they tend to be politically.

11:44 And the less educated they are, the more conservative they tend to be politically. And so what it basically boils down to is that our laity are oftentimes less educated and oftentimes especially less educated theologically than our clergy. Und so, our clergy are both college-educated, and then in the United States, you have a Master's of Divinity, which is a deep, deep theological, biblical, church-practice dive into all those things.

12:20 And so, as you learn those things, you... We might put it in Wesleyan terms saying your essentials become pure, right? Whereas our laity, even the ones that are educated, right? The larger Christian culture in the United States is dominated by Christian music, which is often incredibly shallow theologically and often musically not good.

12:50 Um uh also dominated by like those kinds of voices um that emphasize again that american holiness concept of like convert or you're going to hell and whatever you do after that is your business um but convert um and so it becomes very gnostic in practice it's also shocking to me when i see colleagues here in those non-denominational churches that they are not educated they didn't go to a seminary some of them didn't even go to a bible school which is already a bit like oop oop over here but they didn't even do that and it was just like and then you call yourself a pastor and you have 150 people on Sunday morning wow, and I would say like I coming out so I was originally ordained in the church

13:38 of the Nazarene I began to have social. Disagreements with the practice of their holiness and so I had a lot of colleagues who were pastors who did not have degrees of any kind and just did the course of study, which in the Church of the Nazarene is different than the United Methodist Church. And some of them were very deep theological thinkers, incredible pastors who had a beautiful practice of ministry. And so I don't disparage that.

14:09 And I think a lot of them would also articulate that their backpack of like tools is much smaller than folks who went through, a deep theological educational process. So it, Ja, es ist komplex, natürlich. Und da sind viele soziale reasons für das. Und ich denke, oftmals, das divide... And the negative way can lead clergy to sort of look down on their laity that aren't as quote-unquote woke or as educated or as progressive.

14:51 Instead of understanding, they're being deeply faithful to what they have been given, and perhaps what they need to be given by their pastors is a more open-handed vision of God. That perhaps the problem is that the gospel that they have received paints a picture of a God that is not as loving, as just, as caring, as compassionate.

15:21 As God might really be. And so instead of taking a posture of kind of, well, I know best, why can't you just listen to me? I think we need to kind of do some exegesis of our congregations before we just start browbeating them for not knowing better. Oh, yeah, so true. And I mean, I was surprised how much trust the congregation brings towards me and just believes what I say, at least on a theological perspective.

15:51 In Germany I would say sometimes we experienced parishioners who were way more educated on things like the book of revelations which I was just like tipping on and they were like yeah I know they knew like sort of structure of it how it's built up and stuff and I was like that's so interesting yeah and then they they challenge you all the time like when you have to really be careful what you say in each sentence because Some of them are pretty aware of what's going on and then they're just...

16:22 Or they're in a different theological school, which is not wrong or right, but it's just like... And then they really come at you and you're like, oh my goodness. And here I realized more, I have people who... I mean, most of my church is also towards, I would say, liberal thinking. But they sometimes say, you know what I mean? I don't believe in this kind of concept of hell, but I cannot, I don't have the words to describe it.

16:49 And how, why do I believe? Is it right that I believe that way or that way? And that's something I realize is one of the things I've tried to do is like educate them in finding words for their belief they already have. They seem to be on a good track often times but they don't know why they are feeling that way and I think some of my experience in the United Methodist Church is even that our laity are then afraid of the Bible.

17:14 Because the only way that they think you can read it is that literal. More fundamentalist way of reading it and so they're kind of like well I like Jesus a whole lot but the Bible really freaks me out And so even telling them, no, no, no, no, the same kinds of ways that you would read great literature, you have to bring those same skills to scripture.

17:38 Like Lord of the Rings, right? Like Lord of the Rings. And reading the book of Revelation, I always tell my people, read it like sci-fi. Right? This is sci-fi Christian propaganda against the empire that you can't say, we're talking about Rome. And I think that's what's beautiful about the book of Revelation is it's always whatever empire we have.

18:03 So in Revelation chapter 7, you have... Portrayal of satan's throne room oh weird it's exactly like caesar's throne room right and every like first century christian would have been like aha we got you and isn't it true that the in the revelations it's also oval your office of the empire uh i mean that's definitely an interpretation of it and so i've used that as my as like a way of helping my people grapple with it like if i start describing to you an oval office in which satan sits upon the throne like on a table of oak from a forefather and those sorts of things. Golden curtains.

18:43 Right. You're going to be like, oh that's not Satan but you're telling me that this person embodies Satanic. Personality and it's like, oh yes. So read scripture the same way. And I think that there is a tremendous amount of freedom that our people can encounter when we articulate that. So then sorry, we got really off track. So then I became a United Methodist. Was interesting, yeah.

19:09 So then I became a United Methodist. Basically, I started to get in trouble in my previous denomination, especially over issues of human sexuality. But also other issues in general. And I reached a point where I just really had to make the decision that if I was going to stay that I would lose my credentials at some point um or I would give up all of my integrity in order to stay and remain clergy and I wasn't okay with the latter option and didn't really want to go through the former unless I had to um and so I reached out to a very um, I had a special, beloved mentor in my life, who was a United Methodist, and chatted with Debbie Kutz for a while about the church and the nature of the United Methodist Church and whether that was going to be a good fit,

20:11 and really felt the Spirit kind of saying, walk through the doors. So she helped kind of lead the way for me. And so I sent like a cold call email to the DS in Spokane area, because that's where I was and said like, hi, this is who I am. Here's my resume. Please get me out. And here I am. You got out, yeah. And we are happy to have you.

20:40 I'm an elder in full connection in the Pacific Northwest Annual Conference und served Spokane Covenant United Methodist Church. Und ich bin sehr dankbar für unsere congregation und die man sie haben, wie sie eine Heilung, of course, in meinem Leben. As well as getting to minister with them. Yeah, we're going to put the website of your church into the show notes. So then if you want to see Megan preach, you can go on YouTube and check it out.

21:11 And yeah, we are happy to have you. I'm happy. We sort of came at the same time-ish, right? To this conference. So that's awesome. All right, friends. Let's now go into our actual topic. Well, that was a good excursion here. The social principles. Today, in this first three weeks in the month of October, we talk about our environment and the section from our social principles called Community of All Creation.

21:43 So if you're listening right now and haven't read the new revised version of the social principles in that specific section, it's quite short, then pause the podcast, go ahead, read it, and then come back. But we also are going to read it together in a bit because neither Megan nor I are climate scientists or professional environmental activists.

22:06 Bummer. Yeah, right? The pastor is also trying to figure out how our faith connects with the world God made. So we both read the first section of the United Methodist Social Principles, Community of All Creation. So I see Megan is on the hunt for the baby or something yes. When you first read the community of all creation what line or phrase made you stop or think was there something that stuck out to you I think there's a number of places that stood out to me um.

22:49 But, like, one, I just appreciate so deeply, one of the things I love about our United Methodist tradition is this emphasis on not thinking of science as being in contradiction to our faith, but being in collaboration with. Um, and so this understanding that the study of the created world and all of creation, the universe, possible multi universes.

23:18 Um, that all of it from the smallest subatomic particles, um, all the way up that, that study informs and benefits and bolsters and grows our faith not being in contradiction to it. Um, while also recognizing that science is kind of like, um, a moral neutral, right? Like knowledge in and of itself is not bad, but I think we can use, um, like AI as an example, right?

23:48 The concept of AI is not morally bad or good, but can the process by which we investigate and learn and grow in the world can really quickly become a moral bad thing. So I appreciate this emphasis on traditional wisdom as well. I think particularly in the United States and kind of the Americas in general, North and South and Central Americas, that we have much work to do in examining the harm that European expansion and colonialism has the harm that we've done to Indigenous communities and recognizing the ways that the wisdom of the American Indigenous peoples can...

24:38 Also inform and change the way that we learn through science. But one of the specific phrases that stood out to me is in the preface that says, we are also called to honor the role of every part of creation in healing the whole. Thus we praise God with the whole of creation and recognize that we are part of complex ecosystems, all valued by God.

25:01 Und ich denke, dass das emphasis of our apartness our embeddedness in creation as well as this phrase, in healing the whole really stands out to me as significant. I felt like when I was reading it some of the things I was like, yeah, sure right, but it seems also so necessary at this kind of climate at the moment to say those things again Especially in Section F, we affirm the value of science and reason, which is one of our pillars, Holy Scripture, tradition, reason, and experience.

25:42 We affirm the value of science and reason, providing deeper understandings of the origin and function of the cosmos. Which is probably for Europeans new, because we don't have indigenous people anymore in our area, at least. But we also affirm the traditional wisdom found with indigenous communities and that's a very which I got to learn here a very important statement and reality that we, affirm this and do you think it's, like some of our church people who don't know that the social principles even exist when they read this there would be some, problems or they would have some issues with that Well, I think...

26:34 I mean, on one hand, I'm really grateful. I guess I would say it's Spokane Covenant. I'm really grateful that I often feel like I'm trying to catch up to some of my lay leaders in their work of creation, care, and climate justice. And kind of like following their example and their lead more so than me, like kind of being the one at the front end saying, let's go.

27:04 But I think the climate oftentimes in American Christian tradition is this sort of mentality of you either wholeheartedly agree. Or you just break off and start your own thing or go find someplace where you wholeheartedly agree with everything. And I think in so many ways, the social principles are calling us to something better than that, that says, let us be in dialogue together.

27:38 Let us learn together. Let us work out our salvation together. And there is a critical mass in this particular tradition that says, this is an essential reflection of God's salvation for the healing of the whole, to use that language, right? Und so I think we might have some people Who are surprised like oh we have a statement on that And might be really relieved to discover that Like oh we're not on our own on this Look at this community of believers And there might be some other folks who are like Oh my gosh These crazy liberals believe in this, And so I think This United Methodist Church is woke Right Which is just I think what makes me sad about that is, There's an incredible amount of divisiveness in the American church right now.

28:34 And I think with the social principles and the Book of Resolutions, what they call us to is saying, we take the chance of saying that God's love does, in fact, choose sides. Because God's love must recognize that not all things are equal. And creation is something that we only get one of. Ja. Yeah, it's just, it feels like so hard to understand for me that there are so many people, I would say even a whole party at the moment that is denying that climate change is a reality, or at least denying that humans play a huge factor in climate change.

29:22 And this is something especially in the US where, the US is so exposed to so many natural disasters which are getting more and more like fires and, tornadoes and floods and it's like you can really see and feel it and still people in this country are denying that and it's just too hard to understand why.

29:46 And I think yeah One, this is a very strange question. Do you have tornadoes in Germany? Is that a thing? Not really, no. Yeah. There's sometimes storms coming in, but our houses are built out of bricks and stuff. Right. Yeah. Not like those wooden... The three little pigs of the big bad wolf. The wooden shoeboxes here.

30:19 So, I went to seminary in Kansas City, Missouri, which is kind of in Tornado Alley, which in the United States is a term we use to describe the geographic area where most tornadoes happen. And it is wild to me, having grown up in the Pacific Northwest, what people used to tornadoes are used to. Like my spouse, my husband Is from a place with tornadoes And so he always jokes This tornado watch means you go out And watch for tornadoes, To me, I'm like, that's insane. Absolutely no.

30:58 Also, I grew up in a place where, oh, a snowstorm, no big deal. Life as usual, just drive slower. I think it's just interesting the types of extremes you get used to, which I think, at its best, the reason that so many people are willing to disbelieve, in climate change is because, imagine from their perspective how terrifying that would really be.

31:27 That's a good point. Those of us who do believe in it experience this existential anxiety. This existential dread every time something goes wrong or changes with our climate or recognizing oh my gosh it's October in Spokane and we were having 80 degree weather in Fahrenheit. What is that in Celsius? 80 degrees. Yeah. It's about 25, I would say.

31:59 This 25 degree weather in Spokane, Washington, which is just unheard of in the month of October. Whereas when I was a kid growing up in the area, there were times we would have to wear our snow suits underneath our Halloween costumes because it would be so cold. And I look at my soon-to-be, my 10-month-old baby and think he's not going to have those experiences and how scary that is.

32:30 And so I think at... So, there's that existential fear that I think makes some people retract from it. But then if you also think of their theological framework, for those that are especially involved in like, yes, buddy. Are a part of more quote-unquote theologically conservative traditions or even very reformed traditions.

33:01 Um their theological framework is god really is in control and so to say that climate change or climate catastrophe um global warming is happening is tantamount to um heresy for them right that um that you're making a claim that that god is out of control um whereas in our wesleyan framework God's control is always mediated by God's love, right?

33:35 And that God really did mean what God said in terms of like, you are stewards of creation, right? And that, you know, often as we do with kids or in your case, your four-legged child, Frodo, the dog, is sometimes natural consequences are the most loving thing you can offer. Um but that like god really has um given us free will and that means there's consequences to that um versus a theological framework in which free will is just kind of it really only comes down to maybe your salvation experience accepting jesus and change punching your ticket to heaven instead of hell um so i think there's kind of multiple streams that kind of come together that caused a large swath of Americans to not want to believe in climate change,

34:32 and so then it becomes they don't want to believe in it so they will not and no amount of data is going to change their mind so then the data must be suspect yeah and then they bring up other data and claim that's not the truth, it makes sense and I always thought it's only because the powerful don't want to lose money because that would mean they have to reduce whatever they have to do.

34:57 Right. But it makes sense from your perspective, what you say about the feelings of people and anxiety and the Christian perspective. But it's so funny that the idea, which I have experienced too, that people say God is in control, so we don't have to worry about this at the same time. But we have to worry about if people do an abortion, but we have to worry about if gay people get married because that would mean the end of the world.

35:20 And I'm just like, Hathor, God is in control. So why is it suddenly, you know? Right. I mean, none of us are above inherent contradiction. Oh, none of us. That's right. Thought process. But there is a hypocrisy in that, right? That, you know... The planet changing by degrees is, you know, less bad or less believable than like, oh man, but if those two guys kiss, oh man, everything is just ruined.

35:53 Everything is going to hell. Right. So I think there is an inherent contradiction in that, but there, but by the grace of God, will any of us, I suppose. Yeah. I feel like that leads to that excerpt I took out. I think we don't have to ponder that much on it anymore, but I like this part here about confessing, because in the creation in peril part, which we just tipped on, it says, we acknowledge that unsustainable human activities have placed the entirety of God's creation in peril.

36:23 Further, we confess that the degradation and destruction of the natural environment threatens unprecedented harm, bringing danger to human and non-human life alike. And I feel like this is a, I was so impressed that it's not just like this, the social principles are not just like trying to describe something or saying, this is our stand on this.

36:54 No, we even confess that we are part of destroying this natural environment and threatening life for everybody. Right, and everything. Yeah. And let's forget this a lot. But I think that's one of the most Christian things is to confess our wrongdoing. Right. And I think it's also just so interesting that we in English use that word confess in different ways as well.

37:21 So we in English speaking would use confession to also talk about confession. A constructive, like we confess the creeds is how we would say it in English. Like affirm it sort of, right? Right. Or that like, confess Jesus as Lord and Savior, right? Like that this, that there is this like, when we confess in English, we are saying, we hold this to have authority over us, this truth, right?

37:55 And so if that truth is, I am confessing sin, I am confessing my complicity in systemic sins, I'm confessing my sin in individual sins, communal sins, but I also am confessing that that has power over me. That truth has significance in my life because I confess the gospel of Jesus Christ as being normative and authoritative in my life.

38:28 So I think there's an interesting way that we even use that language of confession in English I wasn't aware of that, that's a good point and I feel like I like that, I think Paul said that also in his episode that it's good to have that also as pastors as a foundation we can refer to, but also when we say something in this kind of context, we can say, hey, and this is what people don't forget, it's not just the American United Methodists, not just the German United Methodists, it's like all United Methodists from all kinds of areas of this world agree to this.

39:09 Not everybody said yes at the end of the day, but the majority did. And that's what is so powerful. Like it's showing so much reality from so many different countries and perspectives and cultures. And that actually should give us some power in saying, look, it's not just us. It's all kinds of people see this that way. And I think that interplays with our recognition of environmental racism as well, right?

39:41 That there's kind of this confession by folks that maybe have privilege saying, even if you don't think this impacts you, even if you don't believe in this, that we so believe in God's expansive love and kingdom that we are kin. And so we confess our sin, we confess our role in climate destruction so that we can be participants and making sure that, you know, there is a creation for you and your, you and yours.

40:17 And I think that is a really powerful part of this as well. I want to read that excerpt as well as the last one from the section Environmental Racism is one part of it. And it says, we confess that the negative impacts resulting from degradation of the national world have fallen disproportionately on marginalized communities.

40:43 These practices condemn impoverished communities and developing countries to bear the brunt of hazardous environments, industrial pollution, toxic waste dumps, and urban decay. Such behaviors constitute... Constitute. Constitute. Thank you. Environmental racism. Yeah. Yeah, it's a powerful statement.

41:10 And I think it's not even for people who don't believe in it, but for people like me, who are sometimes as a white person not aware of this kind of stuff, as a person who grew up poor. To put this kind of truth into an official document of the United Methodist, I think it's just, the more and more I read about this and ponder over that kind of statements we have, as one of the only churches in the world having this, it's amazing that we do this.

41:44 And I hope that it changes something in our churches. Well, and I think, you know, one of the really beautiful ministries that my congregation has participated in for almost its entire lifespan since it was planted is we have a sister church ministry where we have a congregation in Jerusalem. In El Salvador, where we participate in lots of different ways with ministry with them and among them and them among us.

42:20 And the experience of being in a relationship with a historically marginalized community that does not have the insulation of privilege and wealth against climate change. Um that is probably one of the most significant ways that um the hearts and minds and lives and faith of my community have been changed and to recognize that this is urgent that this is significant and I think as United Methodists that um call to be in among of and for the poor and marginalized um.

43:12 It is in relationship to and with and in and from those communities that we see the direct impact of environmental racism, right? So, for example, in El Salvador, they grow a lot of sugar cane and it is an incredibly destructive plant to their environment. But they don't have the choice to say, well, we're not going to do that.

43:42 We're going to grow something that is more beneficial and doesn't require as much water to be pumped in and taken it from communities that need drinking water. Because corporations like Coca-Cola need that sugar to produce Coca-Cola. And so they invest incredible amounts of money to in the governments and systems there in order to capitalize and predate upon those people in order to keep making money so that you and I who have privilege and wealth and status can go into a grocery store and buy a can of Coke anytime we want.

44:25 Und so ich denke, das ist ein unglaublich powerful statement und für die Church zu sagen, no. Für Leute mit Privilege, es ist hotter in den Sommer, so wir einfach die AC ein bisschen. Es ist hotter, es ist weniger Wasser, oh man, mein Yard ist gonna die. Because the city is not letting me water as often as I want.

44:56 Instead of saying, oh, my family might not have drinking water. Or the drinking water might not be safe. Or we have to forego our kids going to school or buying food for a while so that we have clean water. We don't have to make those kinds of decisions. And to go back to AI and how it becomes something that isn't a neutral thing, that's literally happening in the United States.

45:22 That where they've built these technology farms to generate enough power for AI systems to run on the servers, the communities around them literally don't have water in their taps and are experiencing this profound change of their environment on the microcosm and macrocosm because of AI. Because people want to be able to go to ChatGPT and have any questions they can fathom be answered in three seconds.

45:58 And also, it's like for me, what's so frustrating with this all thing in so many areas is that I as an individual can say, okay, I'm not using ChatGPT, right? But I feel like that's why we put people in power in politics, for instance, so they protect our interests and not the interests of money. But most of the time, the tech company has more influence and more to say, because it's all about jobs and money, than we have as the people who are suffering because of their decisions.

46:33 And this is so annoying, right? Right. In Germany, do you have lobbyists? Yeah, we have them too. They're not as prominent probably. We don't see them that much as it is probably here. Yes, of course. The auto lobby, the car lobby, they're one of the biggest ones. That makes sense. Or even meat? Mead, yes, because both of them have such a high, one of the highest job givers, right?

47:13 And so they can always threaten you with that. Right. And yeah, so I saw this joke online that was from a person claiming to be from the nation of Turkey saying in Turkey, any citizen can bribe a government official. Like somebody and this might not be true again recognizing there's probably some, colonialist racism in there and maybe it's legitimate and it's probably not but like essentially that like if an average citizen is able to bribe a government official right like cop pulls you over like you were speeding here's 20 bucks let me go and they let you drive away and that that is considered legal then is that not more free than in the United States where I cannot bribe a government official legally,

48:04 but a lot of lobbyists can't. Yes. And that is legal. That they say, here's a bunch of money, here's a bunch of votes that we'll get for you, and the money we'll spend on your campaign to get you elected. Even if it is in direct harm to your actual constituent. Yeah. It's so frustrating on so many ends.

48:32 There's one thing I sometimes feel like is I trust politicians more when they say something that is uncomfortable or when they say, here, please water less your lawn. And then I hear people saying, they tell me what I have to do, what I can't do, I'm just going to water it. And I'm like, why would they say this if it's not necessary because there's no benefit for them in telling you not to water it? If there would be enough water, they wouldn't give a damn.

49:05 But they see a problem there and it must be so big that they're always telling you not to water, right? Right. But I think, honestly, that comes back to the kind of rugged individualism that is culturally pervasive in a lot of the global West, right, is this idea that, like, you can't tell me what to do.

49:29 Only God can tell me what to do. And if God already told me I'm going to heaven, then who cares? Ja, dann den Rest doesn't matter. Ja, all right. Wir tipped a lot of things. Wir sind auf der 50 Minuten. So, die letzte Frage. Das bringt uns zu Ende. Ich würde gerne auf hope nach Renteing-A-Bit. So, Megan, wo du hast du hope für die Kreation für unsere Church heute?

49:56 Ist dir etwas du kannst uns als Pastor geben? Some hope? some posterial guidance here I mean I do see I do encounter a lot of hope in some of the technological advancements um. This is my baby for those listeners. Oh yeah, we'll let him on being on there. Everyone's he's about 10 months old so he's very invested in whatever I'm doing and angry when I don't give it to him. But.

50:35 I see a tremendous amount of hope in younger generations really taking on this mantle of creation justice, as well as technological advancements Like there's been research into certain grub worms that can eat plastic and digest it without passing on plastic through their waste. I think there's a tremendous amount of energy and conversation.

51:02 You are just a whole thing today, aren't you, buddy? And I think that gives me hope. And on days where none of that works, I am hopeful that God loves creation. And this is going to sound a little odd, but I also find a great deal of hope in that these corporations that are more concerned with making money have to recognize that at a certain point, they're going to lose a whole lot of money if climate disaster collapses the entire world.

51:38 So they do have a selfish vested interest in making sure it doesn't go past a certain point and I think probably sooner than later they'll start to realize we're at that break point So, I know that probably sounds like a weird way to find hope. We can see this already with some insurance companies in the United States who don't want to insure in specific areas.

52:00 So they acknowledge that there is this climate change getting worse. And so, yeah, we'll see. All right. Thank you so much, Megan, for stepping in. Megan was saying yes like two days ago to do the recording or even a day ago. It was yesterday. Yeah. So thank you for stepping in. And I hope, friends, you enjoyed our conversation and we stirred something up.

52:25 I hope you read it again and see what maybe the social principles can do in your church and start maybe conversations at your local United Methodist Church or whatever church you are. If you're not a Methodist, you better become one. Or else. Yeah, or else. Share this episode with your friends and family.

52:46 And I hope to hear you soon or talk to you soon next Monday, we'll have Sarah talking to Sarah both Swiss pastors so they were talking about the environment again and then we will have our, preview episode with the three hosts about the next section which I will have to, I can disannounce this now we will talk about the politics sections and the social principles, Und ich werde ein former Methodist mit mir auf dem Podcast, Shane Claiborne, zu sprechen über die Politik in den USA. So das wird ein tolles Episode.