AEW DYNAMITE POST-SHOW (11/4): Keller & White agree Blood & Guts delivered as promised but is it excessive, plus Nick Wayne, Mercedes-Shafir

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1:36 Now, PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Keller.

1:40 Pro Wrestling Post Show. It's time to talk this week's AEW Dynamite. Well, we knew Darby would be taking the biggest bump of the night, and he did. So recency bias, we'll start with that. Um, after, uh, the Don Callis family successfully won the second blood and guts match, the men's blood and blood and guts match. Um, he yelled up at the top of the cage to Wardlow who had already power bombed Darby on the roof and said, do it. And then, uh, Wardlow sort of almost shoved Darby and Darby sort of leaped, leaped off the cage. Um, wasn't putting up much resistance seemed, seemed game for it. Um, and, uh, and crashed on like he aimed for a stack of side-by-side tables that were stacked he hit the the outer

2:30 two tables missed the middle two so he overshot slightly fortunately the tables broke his fall um did not rule out that the landing didn't gen you know genuinely paralyze him or break his neck but he seemed fine because he's moving around afterwards um so thankfully this was not the night um and hopefully that night never comes but they sure want us to think this could be it um So yeah, that was, I mean, that was the most memorable part of the night, but a lot of blood.

2:58 I don't know, for some people, just all the splashes of blood in the women's match will be most memorable. The close-up of the thumbtacks on Steve Borden's back, the heavy, just crimson masks, copyright Gordon Soley, trademark Gordon Soley. Throughout the night, we had, was it, was it a couple other things that, Josh, tell me what you think some of the candidates for most memorable image of the night were, for better or for worse. And then we'll break away and analyze things a little more here.

3:25 Yeah, I think we will remember how much Megan Bain bled immediately and then also for the next hour, roughly, I think. That is just thick. It was not like a little red run. It was plasma. Yeah, we were close to getting the guts finally that they keep promising us. That'll be memorable. Just like Sky Blue from last year had the crazy bloodied face that is actually part of when they had the heel team promo leading into this match.

3:59 That was her contribution. She's like, last year I bled so much. I'm like, yep, you did. And then so Megan Banks got that promo next year, so that's good for her. But I mean, I think that and Darby going off the table are kind of the top two. Like the women's had a lot of blood and it's just so many, we've kind of gotten to the point where there's just so many kind of crazy spots that they all kind of blend together, but nothing like so crazy that it goes over everything else other than say Darby. Yeah.

4:29 Yeah.

4:29 I mean, I could skim over my, my notes or my report and come up with more memorable moments. I guess there's irony in me saying there are a lot of memorable moments and I, I run out at three. Um, But I don't know. I mean, it was cool that we got Steve Borden in a bunch of stinger splashes against the heels. But that's not going to be the most memorable moment of a match like this. But in a typical match, there are some some neat spots. So let me just wind back for a second and get your thoughts on Darby's bump and kind of the way they got there. Darby went through a hole in the truss.

5:02 He's the only one who's thin enough to do it. So there's an advantage being small. I was going after Don Callis, who was annoying him. And then Wardlow did the obligatory big, strong break the lock, tear the door off the hinge, even though the hinge was clearly very loose through the cage door at Darby. Kind of missed him, but Darby sold it anyway or kind of grazed him, I guess. But then then they chased him up to the top of the roof of the cage and carried him around. Was what position was Darby in when he was carrying him around?

5:32 Yeah, it looks like he was like a long, stalling, walking vertical suplex. Yeah, so Davey Boy Smith, the delayed drop.

5:38 Yeah, exactly. And then Darby slipped free, and we got our first of two low blows within 30 seconds. One on top of the riff, one in the cage. And then, yeah, so anyway, I'll throw to you. What would you think of the Darby aspect that sort of wrapped around the finish?

5:58 Yeah, well, as you noted at the very beginning, you knew Darby, if somebody's going to take a crazy bump, it was going to be Darby. And sure enough, he did. I'll give them a little bit of credit. As you noted, it was the way he slipped out of the cage I thought was well done because he is thin framed like that. And even him climbing the cage wasn't like for no reason. He did it as part of an escape from Wardlow. He escaped out of a power bomb and climbed the cage out of that. So they kind of covered that. I am glad they didn't do the thing where Wardlow's threatening to throw him off, and that's why they give up the match, and then they throw him off anyway, like they do, I don't know, every other year, it seems like. Anyway, as far as the

6:35 actual bump is concerned, if that were any of the other 11 people, I would be very, very worried about their health. But because it was Darby, I'm like, that was a normal Wednesday night bump for him. He will take a worse bump at full gear, I guarantee it.

6:48 Yeah, I mean, this is... It's what Darby does, Tony Khan... funds it funds this fetish, um, of Darby, but he obviously has the, the, the athletic skill, the body type and the mindset, uh, to pull it off. And he does so successfully. We will say, um, we did have some crowd, uh, the crowd chatting fight forever, at least once, um, you sick F is obligatory. Uh, would you say, and we'll, again, we can kind of hit on this randomly because there's stuff in between the matches too, that, um, is worth commenting on storyline development wise and promo wise, but, focusing on the two blood and gut matches first, my take on it, it's not, it's not my style of match. So, you know, just feels gratuitous violence. I get numb to it.

7:32 There's things that are sort of unrealistic and silly throughout too. But if it delivered on what it promised, and I think that is something to give promoters credit for, right. It's, you know, I mean, other than, as you point out, we never see guts, but, but they show guts. Darby showed guts in the symbolic sense. So yeah, did this kind of deliver on it? I mean, I don't have enough internal evaluation of past blood and guts to evaluate this.

8:04 It just feels like it's in the realm of delivering what people who look forward to it would want. And I mean, I think that's a fair way to put it.

8:12 Yeah, I think it's not wildly different than people who go through a horror movie to see awesome kills and blood and guts. and that's great so the people that wanted to get that they got that both of these matches especially the women's match i think delivered that like in spades there was no shortage of crazy dangerous and violent spots and as we noted blood but i mean there's also like you can do like a horror movie what they call the elevated horror or you know like just like with a good story an interesting storyline interesting characters this was not that this was the straightforward uh check out all these, especially the women's match, I thought was just a collection of spots. There was no overarching

8:53 theme or story. They weren't trying to elevate any of the feuds, even though there were some cross feuds they could have done. They could have highlighted a number of feuds. They didn't really do very much of that. At least that the ending of the men's match was kind of like Fletcher and Osprey. So I'll give them credit for trying to tie that in. But the people, the sickos, as it were, who showed up to see a long, unnecessarily long, violent match. They absolutely got that. I can't imagine why anybody would want to watch that forever. I already think it's too long by about 20 minutes each.

9:29 But I think you're right. The crowd, for their credit, even though I just said these were long, they were... Even though sometimes there was very little going on, the crowd, I thought, was there for the whole thing. So, I guess... They came for that, and they got that.

9:44 That's what I was going to say. I mean, if you buy a ticket to Blood and Guts, you better be up for it and enthusiastic. It's not like AEW sprung this on them. You know, they knew when they bought the tickets, this is what you're coming for. Excalibur noticed biggest crowd they've had in Jacksonville. WrestleTix had them around 4,700 coming into the day in terms of tickets distributed.

10:04 It was not a daily place. It was at a regular arena. So they had a bigger crowd than usual. And so, you know, it drew, I mean, it was a above average crowd for dynamite and they were, I didn't, we did not pull the whole audience or I'd have been someone going, what, what, what about, what did I sign up for? Uh, but for the most part, it did definitely seem like, um, they, they were, they were into it. Um, that said a theme of recent weeks, uh, on my podcast has been getting a pop is not the definition of, of a good decision, um, a prudent decision.

10:41 And there is an element of, um, you know, numb you the crowd can get numb to it it can kind of dull the idea that other moves matter it's just sort of it's it lives in its own world i know there's a lot actually in a way i don't want to contradict myself but because of the nature of this match with so many people in the cage there are times where there's long-term selling at least because the focus shifts elsewhere and those arrests are selling for 10 minutes or five minutes of the corner um but it is a lot of violence i i will say they didn't they don't treat the violence lightly they talk about it ominously we had the group interviews beforehand um, with the, uh, the, the, the male teams at the

11:20 beginning of the show. And we had, uh, the announcers talking about it and Copeland saying this, you know, he's, he, as Mick Foley asked him, are you trepidatious about this? And he's like, yes, I'm, I'm, I, someone has to be, um, I'm worried about these kids' futures. Um, so, and it was a little foreshadow, like I give them credit too.

11:39 There was a point to that. They went full circle. Um, he was, he didn't want Osprey's career to end. Um, And so he was kind of the father figure there to protect him in the end. And we can analyze that. So yeah, I mean, I, I'm not sure where I started with that, but the violence, the violence was there for the sake of violence. The crowd was into it and that made it more watchable than the crowd if the crowd was dead. So having an engaged crowd that liked what they were watching certainly helped, but, uh, Oh, I know what I'm saying. Just the sheer total amount of violence at the same time that you're trying to sell, uh, anarchy in the arena and a, and a, uh, Texas death match. It's like, sorry, you know, this is supposed

12:20 to be a big deal that hangman gave in to swerves demand. Um, it's just, it's not going to be as violent as this, um, anarchy in the arena sort of feels like more of the same. So I, I mean, I'm pointing out a bunch of things, but that's a lot of violent matches you're giving away at the same time you're trying to sell other ones.

12:40 Right.

12:40 Well, and, if they look, if they look at the numbers, like I think also ratings wise, historically, these shows have done well. And like you said, they drew like 47,000. That's a hundred. That's much better than they have been. They wish. Right. But I mean, that's better than they have been doing.

12:55 They should have lit the arena better.

12:59 I mean, part of it is like, wrestling is already a niche of a niche. AEW is a niche of that niche. And then like the hardcore blood and guts wrestling fans is a niche onto that niche, onto that niche. So it's like a, I think it's a small portion, but they apparently come out for these. So I guess for like the pay-per-view, like you said, this is more violent than anything. Well, here's the thing. Hangman and Swerve are involved in that triple, in the trios. Trios. uh, Texas death match. So God knows what's actually going to happen in that. There might just be a full fledged murder in that one. We can't rule it out, unfortunately, but you're right. It's too kind of too much and too short of time is also caused all sorts of

13:43 trouble with just them trying to build to the gang warfare of Moxley versus the cut. And then you got the trios versus trios in a death match. At this point, there's just so much gang, very violent warfare that, And those two have been building. And then there's this one where when they ask Adam Copeland, like, do you want to quit? And he's like, yes. I'm like, of course, yes.

14:06 You have nothing to gain by winning this match. This match has no stakes. I would have tapped out immediately. There was no reason. Nobody had anything to gain by winning this match. Whatever feud there was, very little going into it, is not settled in either match. No one had anything to gain or lose other than blood. They lost a lot of blood, I'll give them that.

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15:06 The Fix with Todd Martin that I host with Todd every week, the Wade Keller News Bulletin's post-pay-per-view roundtables, and an array of other VIP-exclusive podcasts with different hosts and different themes. Check out the lineup. Go to Patreon and search PWTorch and subscribe and sync it up with Spotify or stay within the Patreon ecosystem. Either way works. Go to Patreon and start your seven-day free trial. No, and that's the issue with this is it, when it's a calendar event, when you know it's going to happen and they sort of manufacture a reason to put the two teams against each other, and then the story feels sort of manufactured or rushed or performative just to justify having it, that heat isn't there. Like the In some ways, this

15:51 is the epitome of just garbage stunt wrestling. And when I say in some ways, I mean almost in every way. Because the crowd is watching just to see gore and weapons and apparatus being used as weapons and stunt bumps. They're not invested in the flow of the match. You know it's not going to end. I mean, there's a whole section where it's not going to end until everyone's in the ring in a way that's sort of good because it explains why no one's trying to go for pins or submissions. But then Once the match starts, you know, fans have a sense it's going to go on a while longer. So they're just waiting for the next big thing that the wrestlers are going to do for them.

16:27 What are you going to do for me? What performance, what chance are you going to take in your performance tonight to entertain me? And it has, you know, just feeding the fans who like this violence, feeding them entertaining violence spots. And it works on a certain level. I mean, no question about it. It lacks what you're bringing up, Josh, which is what are the stakes? And am I invested in the outcome? And it's not like there was a huge set up with the men or the women, which is, you know, we will prove that we are the real badasses by out surviving you or you say you never quit. Well, I'm going to prove you will like there wasn't whatever.

17:07 It wasn't a real talking point where like, oh, you know, Copeland gives up. Boy, he sure has egg on his face given the buildup. No, it's just like it's the prudent thing to do, you know. And the crowd to that finish, which we can talk about now in a little more detail, kind of just was like, boo. We wanted more violence. You know, I mean, boo that you didn't let Ospreay get hit with a screwdriver, jabbed with a screwdriver. Like, why are you booing if you like Will Ospreay? You should want Copeland to save his life as opposed to continuing a match that's gone on for 50 minutes following a 45-minute match. What do you want?

17:40 What are you talking about? Josh, I got to say this. You're muted.

17:46 Thank God. All right. So anyway, real turnabouts, fair play on that one. So anyway, so after the match, Ospreay is yelling at Adam Copeland for giving up. And I'm just thinking, did you want to get stabbed in the head with a screwdriver? Or again, if there was something to gain, even like if the heels are going to win, they could have went ahead and made the Don Callis family winning the way Fletcher earned his title match. That would have been something that would have given some stakes to the match. It would have made, that ending make more sense for the team but yeah i don't know like you said no there's no sticks and i think we we talked about how this does jump their numbers but i think in general it definitely is not this

18:32 kind of stuff that grows the audience in the way we talk right like it's a bump the number no different than somebody comes out they get a pop but that is not going to increase the popularity that's not going to increase the ratings over time it's just going to be the bump for this match nobody's going to come back next week because of what they saw in this match storyline wise or character wise that's drawing them in to follow anybody on the journeys they're on they just if they came for the blood and the crazy spots they got that and I guess they'll probably maybe come back for full gear because they're going to get that again but where are they going to be after that.

19:08 Yeah so we have a comment from Mark in the chat I couldn't agree more they are beyond needing this kind of stuff to get people to watch it's a shame Derek Mitchell in the chat said, I just don't find these types of matches entertaining. It's just garbage matches like FMW from the nineties in Japan. And, and I think what you pointed out is true that this is not, this feels, well, it just is a match that is, is hyper-focused on a certain type of fan that AEW already kind of has, And so is it worth popping an audience for a above average viewership number and maybe on the eve of a week and a half before pay-per-view, you get some extra pay-per-view buys because some people go, ooh, I've been skipping AEW, but now I want to watch

20:01 this because I like all the violence. And so you get some people maybe back who aren't watching, but is it sustained or are they only coming for that and it's a one-off? And if it's a one-off, and at the same time, you're turning people off to the product. I mean, you could argue this does not belong in primetime on basic cable. What we saw in the women's match at the beginning, especially, I guess, just because of the kind of gratuitous blood, you could argue it. I mean, it's kind of surprising that TBS even is okay with it.

20:29 You know, I mean, it's just, so yeah. I mean, whatever people argue they gain within AW or their fans, you have to take into account for some people, this is just not what they want. And they had competition tonight, head to head with NXT. And I don't know how many people were just like, this isn't for me. And instead of sticking it out because it's such an, a different show than usual for AW, you know, how many people said, I want to go see what John Cena does or Cody does or CM Punk does. And so, so it was even more risky in that sense tonight, but, but I'm not, I say all that and I'm not discounting.

21:03 It's part of AW's brand. It's part of what they, identify as, that they are hardcore, they go further than WWE. Well, and I think part of the ritual of this night is a badge of honor that AEW fans have that, yeah, I like this company because of this kind of thing.

21:22 Yeah, and that's part of AEW's identity. I mean, in some ways, we get upset as AEW fans when they do WWE-type stuff So on the other hand, we kind of want them to counter program, you know, not directly the way WWE does, but, you know, like just separate themselves in that way. Although the fact that War Games is in like three weeks or whatever makes it seem not very separate. But when you compare those two matches side by side, this is a completely different beast. And a lot of the problems I have are because of those differences. But you're right. You can't discount that it is something that sets them apart. And you're right. It's to some fans that is, A badge of honor, so to speak. And even the name of the match is

22:05 based on like a Vince McMahon quote of how that stuff's not going to get over. So, I mean, it's a thing. Like, I am a big AEW fan. I watch AEW every week. This, I did not like this. I wouldn't have tuned in for this on purpose. But, I mean... It's not turning me away. But I don't discount that there are people that are turned away. I assume some people, maybe they skipped this week, they come back next week. So maybe some people check out, they don't come back at all. That's the ones you really got to worry about. But I feel like I was going somewhere and I didn't get there. And now I don't know where I'm going at all.

22:43 Let's talk about the actual finish with the screwdriver threat. Because this falls in the category of... You're not going to do it, so I'm not feeling suspense. And I don't get why that doesn't cross the mind of veteran wrestlers and producers and promoters that we should not threaten to do something that viewers who are used to kind of the rules of engagement in a pro wrestling show know just can't happen. This is not Friday the 13th. He's, you know, this is not Carrie. We're not going to get, this isn't Crystal Lake. You know, we're not going to get a screwdriver gouged into somebody's throat or, or through their cheek. Although we'll get the syringe or their eyeball, the syringe heals. Like, honestly, like it's, it's kind of

23:32 like yucky as the syringe through the cheek was it like just heals up. Like you're not like, I mean, it's possible it does nerve damage. I don't know. We'll talk to, you know, I'd need some, but, It's not the same thing as just jabbing a screwdriver into someone's skull or neck. We know it is not going to happen.

23:49 So either Fletcher is going to swing, you know, swing at him and Osprey is going to move during the whole, the whole, do you want me to do it or not? And that could have happened. So there's suspense if that happens or does Copeland give up? So they've created some suspense, but the suspense does not include the actual move that's being threatened happening. And you have a choice to just not do those things, but they do. I'm against it for that reason, the same reason I never liked the Triple H winding up with his sledgehammer. You knew he would jab people with it, but when he wound up to swing, he would always miss or someone would yank it out of his hand. Don't do things where you know one of the options that's being threatened will not

24:28 actually happen because it would be deadly or maiming.

24:32 Right. Well, I mean, that's the same as it was at last year or might have been the year before when they like doused Jack Perry in gasoline. They were just going to light him on fire. No, you're actually not. But thank God somebody quit because obviously you weren't going to. And I think the men's match in general was a better match and by almost every metric. But the finish of the women's match at least made sense. She was in a submission hold and gave up. Yep. That's fine.

24:59 I mean, it should be warm, wear them down enough. Someone, someone gives up and that's fine. And you can tell that story artfully. It can be crafted in a way where it feels like, yeah, that is, it's just too much for any number of reasons. And instead, you know, you kind of get the hotshot thing. So, I mean, I know, you know, AW does it. It's why I don't like the screwdriver. I don't like the sledgehammer. We had the, the, the pliers and the women's match that was going to yank out. I don't know who's wielding the, the pliers to yank out someone's teeth, but, Um, you know, that wasn't going to happen either.

25:30 You know what I mean?

25:30 Just don't, don't use things that, you know, you can't use. We know you can slam someone on thumbtacks, keep it in the realm of things we can do. Um, so, you know, pro and con there.

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26:43 See you in the paradise. All right, let's pause and introduce ourselves and we'll We've got more chat comments. We have more to talk about on Blood & Guts. We've got stuff in between that we can cover. We have a special guest who will be joining us momentarily also. But first, let's set the table, talk about who we are.

27:03 We are the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show, hosted by me, Wade Keller, the editor, publisher, and founder of the Pro Wrestling Torch Weekly newsletter, and the website PWTorch.com with news updates, editorials, flashbacks, live TV and pay-per-view coverage and more. Check it out, pwtorch.com. And also I host a variety of podcasts. The Blue Logo Show is our flagship that drops every Tuesday night. And yesterday I was joined by former PW Torch contributor and assistant editor, Zach Cator, now of Brass Ring Media. I also wrote for Sports Illustrated.

27:39 He joined me and we talked about a wide array of topics for, I don't know, around two hours. That is our Blue Logo Show. Search Wade Keller, subscribe. That is podcast only. It is free to get. Our red logo show is our post show. Search Wade Keller. Subscribe to that for free. Also, that includes the Raw Dynamite and SmackDown post shows along with flashbacks and more. And if you'd like them commercial free, we have a VIP membership option where you can get all those shows with the commercials edited out along with a ton of exclusive content, full information on our nearly 40-year archive of podcasts and radio shows and newsletters, our ad-free website, customizable podcast feed, our VIP forum, and more. All the details at pwtorchvipinfo.com.

28:22 That is pwtorchvipinfo.com. Speaking of VIP content, our newest show in the lineup is hosted or co-hosted, still working that up, by Josh White, who is my co-host tonight also. Josh, welcome to the co-host chair.

28:41 It's great to have you. Hey, it's great to be here as co-host. I will just declare things up. I am the host of Can They Coexist? The other guy is a co-host in that I consider him the star of the show whereas I'm just piloting the show.

28:57 You lead the discussion and throw to Adam.

29:00 Yes.

29:00 And let him do most of the talking.

29:03 Do his thing, yes. Which is mostly being very upset over things that should not be making anyone that upset. But... are also upsetting.

29:15 It's a fun dynamic with you two. I had a long car ride and put it on and just settled in. And it just was like, you know, you're a third person at a table where two people are too entertaining, where you don't want to interrupt them. You don't want to contribute. It's like, I'm just going to chill out and listen to these two go back and forth. And you just walk through the week in wrestling, top news stories and the TV shows. And uh, it's a fun, it's a fun dynamic. You use a very complimentary, um, I won't say who my favorite is, but you're both, both very complimentary of each other. Um, maybe it varies from segment to segment. I don't pick favorites. Um, but yeah, check it out. Um, it is, uh, uh, the latest

29:53 in our, uh, PW torch VIP podcast lineup. And it really is a, a, a, I have a selfish interest in doing it, a self-serving interest in doing this, but I think it's a really good addition to the VIP lineup, and I really think it's a good way to keep up on everything that's happening in a week in wrestling.

30:11 It's just a really fun, you know, hour to two hours of run-through of the week in wrestling. So you get fun personalities, or, you know, cool personalities reacting to each other as you walk through the week in wrestling. So it's called Can They Coexist? VIP Exclusive. Josh White and Adam Kitt.

30:29 Yes, that is us too. And you just described the whole thing. I have nothing to add to it. Sweet. Cool.

30:36 All right.

30:36 Let's let people know. You can join in the chat conversation. If you're watching us live on the YouTube channel, we go live after Rod Donovan and Smackdown within a few minutes of the show's ending, five to 10 minutes at most. And we have a live chat and we throw those comments on the screen and always read them to our podcast audio only listening audience. to make sure you don't feel left out. You can also email us at wadekellerpostshow at gmail.com. And you can also call in. There is a link to be a caller that changes with every show, but it is in my TV report at pwtorch.com. So if you're checking that out, you can keep up on what I think of the shows and what is happening on the shows, Raw, Dynamite, and SmackDown specifically. We also,

31:15 of course, have NXT and Impact and pay-per-view and PLE coverage. And, oh, AW Collision coverage on Saturday nights, which, Josh, you can speak to also.

31:26 Yeah, so for people who don't watch Collision, that's all of you, as far as I can tell by the ratings.

31:32 Half of you, half of you.

31:33 Right. Yeah, I do a report on Collision every week, and basically, I watch the show, A, so you don't have to. B, I like wrestling matches, so I get a lot of that on Collision, which I appreciate. So yeah, I recommend checking it out. It's on pwtorch.com, obviously. But basically, my main thrust is just trying to Figure out whether or not this is a show that you could easily skip in almost every week. It is, unless you want to see good wrestling matches that have nothing to do with anything else. In which case, they're there for you.

32:10 And I type out 12 paragraphs. 5,000 words. It's always over 5,000 words, Wade. Yeah, I know. It's just so many wrestling moves. Yes.

32:21 And you are the viewer's guide to my time is limited. I have a lot I want to watch, but maybe with a football game on Sunday is boring or it's not what I care about, but I'm sitting around waiting for the next game to start or something or it's a blowout or you're bitter because your team is losing. What match or two or segment is really worth watching on Collision? And you can boil it down for people.

32:40 They can skim over your report and get a sense of that or just have it as a read along companion as they're watching the show. By the way, Josh, this plug section is getting long, but you are part of the PWTorch Daily Cast lineup also, and that is also free for everybody to subscribe to. The commercial free versions are on our VIP podcast option, our VIP podcast feed, but you can get the shows free also, a different show each day of the week with different co-hosts. Search PWTorch in your podcast app to subscribe to that. Josh, worse or better is the name of the show, and you and a mix of co-hosts over the time since the show's launch look at something that is going on today that also has gone on in the past, and

33:18 you decide, is it worse or better than it used to be now versus then? I mean, is that a summary?

33:24 That's exactly the summary, although this week was actually a slight departure from that summary. This week we took 30-plus smaller items, none of which we considered were worthy of its own show, but all things that we're interested in discussing. So it's just like us going through a whole bunch of tropes that existed throughout the years and just kind of trying to figure out how those tropes individually are doing hint. Uh, the way I came up with that list was by things that annoy me. So most of them ended up being worse as it turned out, but, uh, Chris Lansdale joined me for that one. And, uh, we'll be joining me just, I mean, he gets busy during winter.

34:00 So I have him for a month or two more before I have to find another co-host probably. So that'll be good. But I love Chris. If I could have him full time, I would keep him, but I'll take him while I can get him.

34:11 Chris is great. Um, Just a hint of or a sample of things like weddings.

34:19 Weddings. Wrestling weddings.

34:20 Contract signings.

34:22 Don't get enough of those.

34:23 Yeah. Distractions by music. Musical distractions. Yeah. So those are some of the that's a sample of what you guys cover. But it was it was 35 episodes or worse or better crammed into one. Yes.

34:35 No, no.

34:35 Before.

34:36 OK, we'll get to that in a second. But was there any topic that you look back on and go, you know what? We should have done a whole separate show on that now that we got rolling.

34:45 It's not hitting me now, but there were like two or three during the course that were like, oh, you know what? We probably could have spread this out into a whole show. Yeah. And during the course of it, I actually need to follow up with Chris. He's like, oh, I got an idea for a show next week based on something we were talking about. But he didn't tell me what it was. So who knows? Maybe that'll be this week's show probably, but I don't know what it is.

35:06 Cool.

35:06 All right.

35:07 Well, let's get back to our conversation on Dynamite. And I'll also get to a mystery caller waiting to join us. So here's a few comments from the chat on tonight's show. Blood and Guts, the primary topic here. We will get to Nick Wayne's nightclub visits and bragging and how we feel about what he's doing these days also. So Derek said, I'm just waiting for this Blood and Guts match to finally come to a merciful end. He was on chatting even before we went live. Um, he said, uh, they obviously don't care about attracting new viewers or younger viewers with their language and violence. Uh, Derek says, I know I'm going to sound like a fuddy duddy. I thought all the blood and gut stuff was garbage with sloppy

35:51 blade jobs and hope we never see anyone die in the rain.

35:54 Yes.

35:54 So, um, he is not a fan of that. Um, but, uh, Mark Piscay says, this is what I was looking for. Um, yeah, this show stresses me out more than anything else. Do you, do you relate to that? Like you're watching just because some of the stuff you kind of, I roll silly, you know, whatever you're like, you know, Oh, Kendo stick. Oh, now we're no selling Kendo sticks.

36:14 Okay. I roll.

36:15 Um, Oh, someone's going to get, you know, slam through or hit with a barbed wire chair or whatever. But do you ever, are there, besides the Darby bump, are there things tonight that struck you where you're like uncomfortable with it? Not, not because you're sensitive to gore necessarily, although that's an option, but because you're just worried about executing a spot.

36:35 I mean i understand why you might be stressed out and like you said other than the derby but the derby bump doesn't even stress me out anymore because it's a common occurrence even a crazy one the only thing that stressed me out is i things like you can't control exactly what's going to happen like i think with the sky blue took the uh light light tubes to the head like i don't appreciate that that always upsets me a little bit It's.

37:00 Up to the environment. Those lamps should be disposed of properly.

37:03 Right. I mean, she gets poisoned if not slit open. I mean, there's that.

37:08 Also, by the way, you get nervous, but that glass is like paper thin. And if you get hit with one, it just, it doesn't like, not that I've been hit with one, but like those things are fragile. They like sort of just break if you look at them wrong, if they're really long. So to me, it's, when I look at those, it's just sort of like, ah, it's just, it's for show. It's just to see things. If you're trying to win a match and you had a choice to use a weapon, nobody would use that. If you're walking down a dark alley in a dangerous neighborhood and you're like, how am I going to protect myself? I'm sorry, but if you're walking around with a fluorescent light tube, people are going to attack you on purpose just to

37:43 teach you a lesson that that will do nothing. I guess if you broke it first and you had the metal part and there's some glass shards, but even that would just break away. It's just flimsy.

37:52 I'm pretty sure I saw David Arquette nearly die from one of those.

37:56 The.

37:57 the tube hit being hit over the head or the, or the, the being jabbed with it.

38:01 I don't remember the exact specifics, but he was definitely hit over the head with it. And then maybe jab in the jugular area. It was a lot of blood.

38:08 So if you get attacked in a dark alley, then you should hope that they won't, they'll, they won't be hurt, but they'll bleed to death as they're beating you up.

38:20 I mean, that's a hope, but also you have a light. You're not even in a dark alley. You're holding light. All you got to do is plug that in. And now you can blind your foe and you have the advantage.

38:31 All right.

38:32 Now I'm going to move on. I don't know what to do with that. Yep.

38:36 Let's see. Okay.

38:38 So Derek Mitchell says, this match type should be for, oh, it's a super chat. Thank you, Derek, very much for that. This match type should be for settling personal scores, not treating it as a routine calendar reminder. So as much as we're kind of like, you know, there shouldn't be two in one show. I feel that way about gimmick matches like this. And I'd be fine if they did a women's match every three years and it'd feel really special and it should be the culmination. But would you be okay or even enthusiastic about this match if it really felt it organically came up? We have this feud.

39:11 It's four and four, five and five, whatever. And it just happens when it happens. Would this be a match format you would look forward to? Would that erase some of the negatives that we talked about in the opening segment that there's not really a specific point of pride or purpose or stakes in these matches. It really is just a show of violence if you actually have it happen organically, not on the calendar at a certain week of the year, but when it seems called for, kind of like what they've done with Texas Death, with Hangman and everybody there, would you be okay with this format then?

39:42 Well, I would still have these same concerns. Is it still overly long where the first part of the match doesn't mean anything? Is it still overly bloody and just a collection of spots? If yes, then I'll have those same issues. But at least if it were built in a logical way, as in, you know, naturally, that would be great. If there are storylines going into it that are paid off within it and more feuds built coming out of it, that would also be ideal. By the same token, if they just didn't do it for like three years and one popped up, even if it didn't feel like it earned it, I think even that would be nice. But you're right. Getting two every year is numbing.

40:21 And then that's if you don't watch WWE, then you're getting four every year. Yeah. Yeah. So I would have the same complaints, but I would only have to make those complaints, you know, every so often when it occurs naturally instead of shoehorning my complaints in yearly. Yep.

40:37 Another super chat, Zach Barber. Thank you. Says the women's BNG was thrown together, but more violent and bloody. The men's was tamer, but told a more cohesive story. I mean, I agree with that.

40:48 Yeah, I don't like saying I agree with Zach Barber a lot, but this is an instance where yes. Yeah. I do agree with that assessment.

40:55 Derek Mitchell says, I hope that tell we don't see someone in AW gets here secure to die in the ring and put in harm's way for some reason. Well, definitely. We do not want to see that. Adam Kidd says, I don't need blood for the sake of blood and stupid risk for the sake of a pop.

41:12 Yes.

41:12 Mark Buschetti says, just stressed. Just stressed watching them. Mike Good says, good news. Blood and Guts is over. I don't have to see it again for another year. Or if Tony Khan takes our advice, maybe not for three years, Josh.

41:27 Or if it pulls a really good rating, not for three months, Wade. Oh, God. Yeah. Indeed.

41:34 Indeed.

41:34 Indeed.

41:36 Mike Good says, when Darby eventually really hurts himself, I'm not going to feel any sympathy for him. You don't have to feel sympathy. You can say he knew the risk. It's one thing for somebody to get hurt when they don't know the risk. Yeah, whatever. People get hurt who don't know the risk. Darby knows the risk he's taking.

41:52 I get that. So hopefully you'd feel bad he got hurt. Hopefully you're not rooting for him to pay a price for his excessive, I don't know if recklessness is a word. Darby would argue it's not reckless because he's A stuntman. He's essentially a stuntman at this point in terms of, you know, being trained to do it.

42:09 But, I don't know.

42:12 Zach Barber said, Derek, the crowd is very enthusiastic in both of the matches. Well, yes, but you know, Zach, that goes against our rule here, which is a crowd being into something does not mean it's good for the overall show, the promotion, or your larger audience any more than serving people. cookies and ice cream to kids for dinner every night. It'd be very popular decision, but it's not good for them. Um, so anyway, right.

42:38 The people who paid money to go see a show called blood and guts were excited when they got blood and guts. Yeah. Yeah. Shock.

42:45 Yeah.

42:46 Um, but like I said, I think for people I'm genuine, I mean, we're kind of giving the match a hard time, but for people who showed up wanting to see blood and guts, they got it. And I think both matches were different enough as pointed out earlier. Um, and so even though two on one show, one 45 minutes, one 50 is excessive and numbing for some people.

43:03 Yeah.

43:03 Got what was advertised. And I want to like genuinely give them credit for that. That's what didn't feel like, Oh, it's like hell in a cell. Like, Oh, this is short. It's a, it's the most dangerous structure ever. And Oh my God, when you go in there, you never come out the same. And then they just have a match and they climb the cage and they bash each other into it. Once like this genuinely lives up to, to the hype.

43:22 Yeah. Um, so yeah.

43:25 There we are.

43:27 Just a reminder, you can reach us at wadekellerpostshow at gmail.com if you're interested in contributing to the flagship or wadekellerpostshow at gmail.com if you're interested in submitting a question or a topic or even a rant on the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Shows. All right. Zach Barber with another super chat. Thank you, Zach. Says, CounterPoint, once War Games left the Great American Bash Tour, it became an annual match for WCW. So it's largely always been an annual match, no different than the rumble. I don't know your point there because we're, we're not arguing. It's not an annual match.

44:04 We're saying it should never be an annual match. I mean, it is, it, our complaint is that it's an annual match and you are making the case. It's always been an annual match. Like the rumble always being something does not mean it ought to continue to be something and that it's good that it's what it is. Um, So, yeah, I don't quite know how to fully react to that. Josh, can you make anything out of that?

44:28 I mean, I can restate your point in slightly different words.

44:31 That's good podcasting. You and Adam never do that.

44:35 The screwdriver is a stupid weapon, and it was a stupid weapon tonight. But it's always been a stupid weapon, so it doesn't mean we can't quit using it. It's still stupid.

44:45 Yeah, yeah. Mark Biscotti says, there's a reason Pat Patterson and other agents were invaluable. They created structure, rhyme and reason for matches, moves and moments. AW wrestlers need that kind of structure. Well, they're good at the moments part. It's the rhyme or reason that we think sometimes can be lacking. And let's see. Zach says, I never understand the idea of poo-pooing a crowd's enthusiasm. We're not poo-pooing.

45:14 the crowd's enthusiasm. We're saying that it is not a sufficient rebuttal to nuanced points about how getting an enthusiastic pop for something you do is not always the best approach or the most efficient approach or the most business savvy decision to make within the way you present your product to your audience. So, I mean, we're saying the crowd is happy. That's a positive, but you can make crowds happy in a lot of ways that ultimately are mind numbing or con or counterproductive to, to growth or the health of wrestlers or, or whatever. Um, so anyway, um, but thank you Zach for, uh, at least trying to clarify there.

46:01 Let's see.

46:02 Uh, Mark Biscotti adds, uh, Tony Khan put his wrestlers in situations where they feel competitive to pull off the next big move. It's inevitably going to lead to someone getting hurt or killed. I do. I, I, I, I do think there is an element of we got to top what we did last year. We got to match what we did last year. The women want to do something else stand out for the men from the men's match.

46:18 And so we're going to do this to try to make sure that that and I mean, that's a natural competitive drive that that performers have. But yeah, I agree. It can be can be.

46:29 I feel that, but I don't think it like really manifested the year. The Darby bump was the worst one by far. And it was reason, again, it was Darby. So it was probably if anything energized him, but I mean, it was through several tables and caged in that high and the women, as much as there was entirely too much blood, I didn't do anything that I felt was like crazily unsafe. Yeah. So I do agree with that point in general, but I don't think that is what we saw tonight necessarily.

46:57 Another couple of comments here. Treading, Pickens612 says, treading carefully here. I like blood and guts. I don't get into CCW, GCW level gore and danger. This feels relatively less violent and safer to me. And it's only one out of every 52 dynamites. I mean, that's an argument for it. And we're not saying you should feel bad for enjoying it or that you have to enjoy it. We're just making the case you can enjoy it and also afterwards just be like, eh, maybe there's a better way to do this less often, make sure there's a story behind it.

47:31 Don't do two on one show. Um, you know, and, and part of it too is like, and I know it's just sort of the way Excalibur announces, but it's like, Oh, like when there's a big move and it's, it's like he announces like the job of the wrestlers is to entertain him and the fans. And as opposed to being part of selling the idea that there's real violence happening here with real stakes. And so much of, of Excalibur, um, a good portion of Excalibur's approach to calling wrestling and reacting to moves is a guy at a bar watching on a big screen on the wall with a bunch of buddies going, oh, did you see what he just did? Wow, what a cool move.

48:09 Oh, man.

48:10 And it's like, you're not a fan. You're there to be a storyteller and to enhance what's happening and to make it feel like this isn't fun for us to watch, but it's devastating for the wrestlers. And so that takes away from it too, but it's more symptomatic of the presentation of the whole thing. It's not just Excalibur. I think a lot of what the wrestlers do is, is that way also. And part, and I mean, it's just, it is what it is, but part of the idea of everyone brings a different weapon to the ring, different apparatus.

48:37 It feels like you get scored for originality or creativity rather than just bringing the most effective weapon.

48:44 Well, yeah, because if you were to bring the most effective weapon, everybody would just come down with handguns and it would just be a shootout and it would be legal as far as I can tell, based on the rules of wrestling. But yeah, like I, I do hate the everybody brings weapons thing. That was far more of an issue with the women's match, I suppose. That's a weird trope. And the announcing doesn't, you're right, they don't sell it as serious. The only person I found selling this as a big serious thing was Adam Copeland, who's like, yeah, this took years off my life. Everybody else was like, let's go have fun in the cage, guys. And they did.

49:17 But yeah, even Tony Schiavone was like, everything was the best move and they've never seen any of these things even though I don't know how many things I saw tonight that I'd never seen before maybe one or two things but as far as I could tell Schiavone has never watched a wrestling match before and everything was the greatest and first time he's ever seen anything like.

49:37 This What did you think of this? Well, you gave a little thoughts on it, but the idea that Osprey was upset with Copeland at the end, because this match, this match was meant to build up Kyle Fletcher and Osprey. And so, and we'll set aside our thoughts on the match and the way it's presented and two of them and how long in the violence. Let's just talk about what the actual goal of the men's match was. And, and one besides delivering 50 minutes of, of gore to pop a rating and, and establish as part of your AW brand for better force or worse or better. But we have a match they're building up for a week and a half from now. We'll ask spray. in Kyle Fletcher, that was part of the focus, along with Adam Copeland

50:15 now having an argument, well, Ospreay, I saved you, you owe me, and instead you're mad at me. So there's tension there, and it serves a purpose, but I think the inherent downside is Ospreay seems like he's being a bit unreasonable, as you covered, and are you really going to Like Will Ospreay more because he's mad at Copeland for giving up in a match with no stakes other than perhaps a winner's purse. When what Copeland did is he saved him from getting a screwdriver spiked into his throat or his eyeball or something. So it's hard to be sympathetic for Ospreay if you actually think about.

50:53 It at all. It's true. It is difficult, and maybe you're not supposed to be, because if they're going into a match at some point with Copeland and Ospreay, I mean, it's going to be a face-to-face matchup, so maybe that way they at least have a little bit of backstory heat between them, even if there's not a straight crowd takes one side of the other situation. But, yeah, I think that this was actually the best thing I had to say about this match was that it was, the purpose was to build up the Ospreay and Fletcher match, which is in it's a week from saturday they need to be building that i got one more dynamite in which to do that so i am i do appreciate that they you know structured this match in such a

51:34 way to highlight those two they even had their time alone and went at each other a couple times and played directly into the finish those were actually the highlights of it for me so we already noted that is an overreaction because losing blood and guts means nothing even Ospreay should be able to figure that out. Copeland should be able to explain it in those exact words, but they won't. They'll just have a misunderstanding that culminates in a title match at some point, I assume, but at least they did something storyline wise. Cause the women's match, not a single thing was even, they had a brief miscommunication between Harley Cameron and Statlander with the brawling birds who were fighting it, the pay-per-view, but they were right

52:16 on the same page at the end of the match. So, I mean, There was nothing going on storyline there. So this at least did that, if nothing else.

52:24 All right. We have a threat of who we don't want the special guest to be in the chat. Jasroy does not want it to be a few people, including Zach Barber. But it is not Zach Barber, but we'll get to him in a moment. Based on his follow-up comment, I think he'll like who the guest surprise is. Um, but I do want to bring up what Jas Roy said in the chat positive about this show. The Nick Wayne video was my favorite part of the show. Jas Roy says, um, Nick Wayne is, um, I don't know how current this term is, but he is a hoot.

52:59 It's like, I don't know what else to say. He is so genuinely into his gimmick. It's, it's so believable that that's how he would act. Um, And he's dressed up, he's showing off his watch, and he's just walking around going, you know, have you heard who beat Chris Jericho twice? I did!

53:18 Nick Way!

53:19 Like, he's this just young 20-something punk who just can't wait to go, apparently have no friends, and just go around bragging to people and bouncing around, bar hopping and nightclub hopping. Josh, what do you think of tonight's moment and also the pyro that blasts with Nick? I know you guys have talked about this, but then what do you think of his gimmick overall also?

53:42 I am surprised it's working as well as it was because when they first lined him up across from Chris Jericho, like you could see it going badly. You could see a Jericho winning, which would be crazy, but you can see Wayne winning and like not really getting much out of it. Somehow just gloating about beating Chris Jericho twice is like all the character Nick Wayne needs because everything else, as far as I can tell, is his authentic self just being kind of a 20 some year old, like, kind of douchebag that you really want to smack or hit some guy that's chronically online and streaming to his fans, of which there are dozens. I think that works very well.

54:23 I think he's a very effective heel character that I kind of enjoy watching. I'm not the first one to make this comparison, but he's not unlike early Dom, where you could see the spark of something that could be a very, very good heel that is very easy to hate. And the other thing Nick Wayne has, he's already very good, like, in the ring as a wrestler. So, I mean, if he gets this character thing and lands, you know, gets it exactly right, it's still a little over the top at times. But the pyro thing, the I beat Chris Jericho twice thing, that's all basically gold.

54:59 Yeah, yeah. Goodfella says, 21 years old on a big-time TV show live. Good for him. I'll ride with his journey for a bit. uh mark paschetti says nick wayne has an easy job act like yourself.

55:11 And people will hate you that's working.

55:14 Yeah but is he like that or is he just convincing you that's who he really is but that's either way maybe he's just.

55:19 A great actor in which case bravo.

55:22 Yes absolutely um derrick mitchell wants to know was there anyone in the club it looks like he was in miami while everyone was on the at the voting polls at the voting booths at the at the poll stations yeah i don't know um Zach Barber says Nick Wayne turned into a major baby face on blue sky last night.

55:38 Um, elaborate.

55:39 I didn't, I didn't, didn't know what he did. Um, uh, but I'm, I'm now I'm curious. And, uh, Oh, jazz Roy says for the record, wait, it's Jason and grand Rapids, Michigan, by the way, I hate this username. Can you, are we locked in on our, I guess we kind of are locked in our usernames, by the way, if you have a, I say, I haven't said this like two years.

55:59 If you have a username, you don't like, I know it adds a little extra typing, but just at the beginning of your, of your comment in brackets, just put what you want to be called and then make your comments. And I will obviously replace the at, um, handle with whatever you want to be called. I know it's a little extra typing. You can cut and paste it. So if you post a lot, you can just cut and paste every time, uh, store it in, uh, and then paste it in on the clipboard. So anyway, just a suggestion, um, to avoid having some being called something that you hate, but you're stuck with.

56:28 Um, that's funny because when I post in the post show, It's not my name. It's something completely random. And I prefer it that way. So you have no idea who it is that's trolling you.

56:38 Then you find out for real what we think of your comments. Oh, it's this. I always roll my eyes at this guy. Man, what a loser. Oh, it's Josh.

56:51 Oh, no.

56:53 But yeah, it's like wearing a mask. No one knows who you are. Admit it, you love Nick Barbatti when he co-hosts with me on the Wade Keller Post Shows. Well, now you can listen to him every week on the Nicky's Club, a VIP exclusive podcast. Here's Nick to tell you more.

57:07 Hey, wrestling fans. It's Nick Barbatti, and I'm back with the Nicky's Club, the place where the family of Nicky's comes together for big laughs and sharp takes on WWE. From WrestleMania rumors to surprise returns, I got you covered. The Nicky's Club, where the wrestling feels like the coolest club in town.

57:21 Nick Barbatti wants to be part of your pro wrestling life every week, so... Why not let him? GoVIP. PWTorch.com slash GoVIP for full details on signing up. We're compatible with Patreon, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and just about any other iOS or Android app out there. You can also stream directly from our ad-free VIP website. The Nicky's Club, waiting for you every week at PWTorch VIP. Okay. Let's see.

57:49 Jasper said, sorry, Wade, I wasn't trying to chastise you. I didn't take it that way at all. I'm not being. I'm not irked or anything. I'm just saying like, as a courtesy, there is a method if you want to be called something different. And I just put your, did I, I probably just called you Jasper again, didn't I? Jason from Grand Rapids. We got to put your, put Jason Grand Rapids on a little bracket and save it on clipboard and paste it in every time. Although then you have limited characters on your, on your posts, but yes.

58:15 Good fellow, by the way, says Nick Wayne doesn't know who he is right now. That's the ride.

58:21 Interesting.

58:21 Another super chat from Derek Mitchell. We got to take this. I'm afraid that Fletcher will end up like Brody King, Mark Davis, and now Tekla. They all move on as if nothing happened after receiving title shots. Does nobody want another shot at the title? I mean, that could be a worse or better. You need a good memory and good recall, and it would take some research. But the idea of how bookers, promoters, wrestling promotions follow up on a wrestler who challenges for a world title but loses.

58:53 You know, like to make it work, you might go, OK, what happened during Hogan's WBF title run in the late 80s? What happened during Stone Cold's title run in Attitude Era? What happened during John Cena's title run? And then how are they doing it today? Like you kind of pick like two or three different kind of snippets of time and kind of track what happened when wrestlers feuded with a world champ at the top came up short. And then what did they do next? Is there, in studying history, Josh, anything come to mind about how that is being handled by AEW relative in a general sense to how it's been handled in the past? Now, granted, there's so many titles.

59:27 You can just move on to another title.

59:30 Right, that's exactly... That's the AEWA, apparently. Like, Queen Amanata lost to Mercedes and then won the TBS title, like, three weeks later. Yeah. They are very bad, since we're talking about AEW. Like, this Super Chat is... Yes, exactly. All these guys got a world title match, lost, and just went back about their business. Never mentioned it again.

59:53 None of that. Like, Tecla, not only did she challenge... She was the world champion, like, six months ago. no mention of the title doesn't care about it in fact it's not yeah it's not even just challengers it's former champions they just if they're not actively competing for the title nowadays they just don't mention the title very much they're not going for it unless they are going for it in which case all of a sudden they start bringing it up which is how you can tell when all of a sudden like if tecla next week cuts a promo about getting her title back well then you can see that she's probably moving into a feud with mercedes in the near future which fine i thought that could have kept going. But yeah, historically, it's another story.

1:00:34 I don't know if you've noticed, Wade, when we do worse or better, anything that isn't in the last couple months requires excessive research on my behalf. Chris has a better memory for that kind of stuff than I do, but I am usually deep in the research. Thankfully, I am a VIP member and I can dig through the archives if need be. This is bound to happen.

1:01:01 I think when you have so many titles, this brings me to my desire as a viewer. I think I care more about it than most, but that does not mean that it isn't objectively better to do than not do either. Just because you haven't thought of something or it doesn't bother you doesn't mean if the promoter did it, it wouldn't be better. And I would argue it would be better, even though it makes things a little more difficult, to define why what, what, what differentiates one title from another for one. So we kind of have a sense of, Oh, this is a stepping stone title. And generally if you are qualifying for a TBS title match, that's an indication you're not qualifying for a world title match. And if

1:01:44 you're getting a world title match and you lose, that kind of moves you back into the division, the TBS title division, where you could probably earn a chance to, um, get a world title shot, even if eventually you lose the title. I think that is something an announcer should say. And it's not that hard. Um, when someone loses a title and they, they've, they were cheated out of it, then I think there should be an explanation for why they don't get a rematch. You know, why does CM Punk get the rematch against Grayson Waller when he cheated last week? Um, when Grayson cheated last week, he should have to give a rematch. Like I, they just, there's so much booking out of convenience and they just don't

1:02:20 want you thinking about things, but I would like there to be a genuine explanation for why when someone, or not even explanation, an emphasis on when you lose, the announcer should say, all right, they had their chance. Now they have to try to re-earn a title shot. And sometimes you can kind of slickly book that so that you end up with an obvious diversion or distraction, Josh, where suddenly you're like, okay, now this person, I understand why they're not demanding another title shot, because there's such a, now they have a personal grudge and they're just distracted by it. But at other times it's like, tell us why someone's not getting another title match. So anyway, that just, those are my thoughts on that.

1:03:16 Yeah.

1:03:16 And I think that I would pay good money for somebody to accurately describe to me the different levels of which AEW titles are above which ones, because under the world title, I have, No idea at all. But I mean, just like a little bit of lip service towards what that means. And I would also like not just the announcers, obviously, to say, hey, they're going to the back line. I would like for wrestlers after they lose their title match to cut a promo about what they're doing now, what their new plan is. Are they going forward? Are they very upset? You know, the agony of defeat. That's half of the game, really. And yeah, there's almost never any fault.

1:03:57 And AEW half the time, they just disappear for like four weeks and then make a shocking surprise return at a pay-per-view and then go back into merging the traffic, which is the worst.

1:04:07 I'm, I'm, I'm a proponent of having a more sports-like structure and framework and you abide by that. You hold yourself to it and you book around it, even if it's slightly inconvenient because I think it makes everything feel a little bit more official. Um, and like I said, that's what bugged me, you know, on, uh, last week with NXT Halloween Havoc. I just, I feel like Grayson Waller clearly cheated to win against Tony D'Angelo. And now it's like, oh, CM Punk just jumps in. I'm going to get the next title shot. Well, shouldn't Tony, because Waller just clearly cheated with a crowbar to retain his title.

1:04:38 Why does D'Angelo, if he earned a title shot, now not get another one? The announcer should at least be outraged. And then you almost need to heal GM at that point, which I'm not advocating for, to ignore the way the match ended. So we've sort of just little by little, it's like eventually like if you wash a t-shirt enough, it just doesn't come out of the dryer. It just disintegrates, you know, like it's so thin and worn out. Like what happened to that t-shirt?

1:05:03 Yeah.

1:05:03 It's in the lint catcher. It's in the lint vent. It's disintegrate there. There's a level of like a reason things were done in a structure that things were done where wrestlers and bookers who grew up watching it, it was there. And then each generation, it just becomes the logic and the structure becomes thinner and it just becomes about moments and pops and violence and fight for every chance and we were there's too much of that when it comes to titles but anyway that's a little bit a little bit off topic um in terms of tonight's show but it applies obviously in certain ways too to what we're talking about um from the chat comment we'll do rapid fire uh there are three segments in between and we'll bring our special guest on and uh go

1:05:41 from there um we had uh john moxley entering a room with orange cassie kala riley and roderick strong he he walked into the room. Like what my cats does when she thinks she's invisible. If she walks slow enough, which is adorable. They show just like walk really slowly past. Like, I don't, if I walk slow, you won't notice me. Um, and that's what he did. And then he sat down and had, you know, Moxley heart to heart about how he knows Cassidy really well. Um, and, uh, He wants to work together for their Anarchy in the Arena match.

1:06:16 So anyway, what stood out to you in that promo, and how did you feel about that as kind of the way to build that matchup at Full Gear?

1:06:23 Yeah, I think, I mean, they noted on Collision, so nobody knows what's happened, but Moxley had noted that his group is down two guys, and obviously the conglomeration has been feuding with JY's group, again, on Collision. But Moxley is really good in these situations, like any kind of short, especially backstage promo, even when he's just straight up talking to the camera. But in these situations, when he's talking to somebody, I think he's actually even better, generally. So I thought this was good. It makes sense. They need a couple guys. Those are the obvious guys to go with.

1:07:02 But I appreciate that they paid lip service to the history Moxley has with all three of those guys. And to their credit, all three of them have been portrayed as relatively serious as of late. Like, Orange Cassidy and his match on Collision, again, God, I'm bringing up Collision a lot, was completely serious. None of the little kicks, none of the slow, slothy kind of stuff. It was just straightforward Orange Cassidy, the professional wrestler. And that makes sense if they're going into this big, serious match. You'd almost think they're heading into, like, a blood and guts or something. But it's just an anti-Arkane arena, which is, they're portraying it as a big deal, but historically, those have kind of been clown shows, too.

1:07:38 So.

1:07:39 Be interesting to see which direction that goes. Oh, yeah, but Moxley, very good at what he does. So, I mean, I don't normally picture him as, you know, an adorable cat, but I could see the way he entered the room gave you that feeling.

1:08:01 Yes, there was a comment earlier about what Nick Wayne did on Tuesday night. I asked for clarification. Zach Barber said, Every time the Dems flipped a seat in the House or Senate, someone used a picture of Nick Wayne saying he beat Chris Jericho, LOL. So, fun.

1:08:17 A lot then.

1:08:19 Yeah.

1:08:20 What a night, geez. I mean, that is humans on Earth monumental course-changing evening last night. A very loud message to politicians and the world, a shift of power.

1:08:34 Yeah.

1:08:35 I don't know.

1:08:36 Yeah. Anyway.

1:08:38 Uh, but yeah, a long night for a lot of people who now are lowering up. All right. Um, so, uh, we also had, uh, Renee interviewing or introducing Mercedes Monet, who then told her to get lost and she left. And then, she called up Marina Shafir. Shafir got in her face and we heard more. Have we heard? Is this double the word total for Marina or did we not even heard from her before? I'm trying to remember like in a deliberate like back and forth segment like this.

1:09:07 This was a crazy a lot of talking from the usual silent assassins.

1:09:13 Yeah, no, this was probably like 40 to 45 times more words than she normally gets out in a promo. I think during their last meeting, it was like three or four words, one of which was pussy. This week, the levels, she did say bitch, ass, and pussy in that order.

1:09:31 But.

1:09:33 If you take it as an actual percentage of the words she said, it was actually a lower percentage than her last couple promos. To her credit, though, even though she didn't talk a lot, she was fine. She wasn't amazing, but I thought she was good.

1:09:46 She felt real. It didn't feel like, oh, I'm playing a... It wasn't cringy like Chris Stantlander. It didn't feel like early Ta-Ta promos where it's like, oh, you're trying out a gimmick on live TV and working through it, workshopping it. It just felt like that's who she is. I mean, it, and it worked for me. It didn't, it, her talking didn't undercut her gimmick, but it also didn't feel like a gimmick. If that makes sense.

1:10:08 Yeah, no, she just spoke like a serious person was speaking. She's a serious person. And I thought that, yeah, that fits her character and she was fine. It's good. It builds the match at full gear. And honestly, I'm interested to see what they do with that match. It could be a very interesting match. It might be, it could also be a show, but it should be good.

1:10:27 Yeah.

1:10:27 I mean, I've, I I'm looking forward to it because we don't know, but Mercedes is so good. And Shafir has a very distinct style that differentiates her. And I think it can work, work. I think it can work well if they craft a good, good game plan. So final other segment, I think that we haven't covered in depth, but we alluded to it as the Texas death match.

1:10:47 Now hang men agreeing with to, to he he's, he agreed to the match because Bondito and Brody King wanted it based on the events of tonight in particular. What did you think of that as the payoff to Hangman being reluctant, selling the idea it's not a place he wants to go again, but eventually Swerve isn't taking it as he did. Then you have Austin Creed taking on the role of being especially upset with Swerve, and Swerve kind of defending himself. So, a number of things going on.

1:11:16 What did you think?

1:11:18 Yeah, notwithstanding that as soon as Swerve mentioned Texas Deathmatch like two or three weeks ago, whatever, we obviously knew this is where we were going to end up. I thought they'd done a pretty good job again this year like the new level has kind of made sense as like explaining like there's no need for this ironically most of the blood and guts participants could have made a similar argument for that type of match but regardless like it makes sense so obviously swerve escalated things last week and with bandito and like you know So they followed up on that. They got Creed kind of like having words with Swerve, but still being on his side. But like, hey, like this is not what we signed up for. And

1:11:59 then obviously Creed got upset when he saw Kofi getting repeatedly crushed in a door, which is fair. And I mean, Bandito was out there like a madman. I was like, angry, serious Bandito. That is something I can get behind because he has so much going for him as a wrestler. that I'm like, oh, yeah, as just a bad man, a big, bad, not that big, but, you know, a bad, strong man walking around beating people down. I mean, that can work for him. Less Macarena, more just beating people up. So, yeah, I thought this was all mostly very good. And then, you know, again, we knew we were getting a Texas F match from the get-go, but I do appreciate that, you know, Hangman didn't, you know, try to throw it off for another week. He's like, fine, I guess we're

1:12:43 doing it. Um, so yeah, even though I don't think we need a Texas test match, obviously, even though I knew we were getting one anyway, I think the steps they took to get there were a little, not too confusing, but there was like a lot of ins and outs and they didn't, it wasn't ever bad. I thought they did a pretty good job with it. Actually.

1:13:03 I I'm torn on whether it was rushed or drawn out. Um, like hangman.

1:13:08 Yeah.

1:13:08 Yeah.

1:13:08 I know.

1:13:08 That's a, that's a thing. Like hangman is very against it. But he's also kind of a pushover. Like, oh, okay, well, if you really want it that bad, I guess I'll do it. He was so strong in his principles to not do it. And I don't know if enough happened to justify it. I guess probably enough happened for him to go, all right, I'll give up on that stance.

1:13:25 I mean, I overall liked it. iPhone users, if you're listening to us on the native podcast app on your iPhone, You can unlock our commercial-free versions of our free shows by searching PWTorch in Apple Podcasts. You'll see a charcoal gray logo that says PWTorch VIP on it. Click on that. There's some free samples of VIP shows, and you can unlock the entire VIP lineup, which includes VIP exclusives plus commercial-free versions of the free shows by searching PWTorch in Apple Podcasts and clicking on the PWTorch VIP logo. and then activate your three day free trial. And after that, you can become a VIP member using your Apple account.

1:14:03 It's that easy. Enjoy a streamlined listening experience to our free shows and unlock all the VIP exclusives, including our post pay-per-view round tables, the Wade Keller news bulletins, everything with Rich and Wade, the fix that I host with Todd Martin and a variety of other VIP exclusives. Just search PW torch in your Apple podcast app. Um, Derek Mitchell, though, points out something I didn't like. Derek says, I wasn't a fan of Bandito saying he wanted to kill Swerve, which you know obviously can't happen. Yeah.

1:14:36 Every time. I know. It happens all the time. I'll be like really into something. This happened I think it might have been on Collision. It might have been on Dynamite. Gabe Kidd was cutting a promo. I'm like, I'm not usually into Gabe Kidd. I'm like, oh, this promo is really working for me. He's like, Then I'm going to hang you by your intestines. I'm like, oh, all right, you lost me. You had me there, though. And it's the same thing. As soon as you cross the ridiculous line, it kind of undercuts the whole thing.

1:15:03 Now, would you be in favor of hanging someone by the intestines if it's in a blood and guts match? Because it would finally fulfill the guts part of the match, literally.

1:15:10 At least it's on brand, and I shouldn't be shocked when it happens because they told me it's happening. So I'll give them that.

1:15:16 Now, in.

1:15:18 the in defense of bondito for something i would normally in no way defend i'm really not defending it now but sort of explaining he goes um hayman said to bondito are you okay because bondito was just freaking out and bondito goes of course not he almost killed me he took my mask he took my honor i'll take his life my defense of it is he's only saying i'll take his life due to two reasons to sort of fit. It's not just, I'm going to utter something because I think it's cool. Why is, like, so many times the wrestlers go, I'm going to kill you. It's like, you know, we hadn't sold the tickets yet, but if I say I'm going to kill him, we'll sell some tickets.

1:15:50 Or most wrestlers don't say I'm going to kill someone. Why not? I should say that. What a great idea. You know, like, I'm going to say I'm going to kill him. Why didn't no one else think of it? So I roll my eyes at those. But in this case, he's saying, he tried to kill me. So it sort of makes sense for him to say, I'm going to kill him. And then he said, he tried, he took my honor. By trying to take my mask. So there's a parallel construction. So I will take his life. He is emphasizing how important the mask is. So while I would still veto it, this is a better version of it because of the parallel construction and the fact that it was just sort of a, he tried to do it to me, so I'm going to do it to him.

1:16:28 Yes, and I actually did like the rest of it. Are you okay? Of course not. Did you watch last week? I actually thought all that was good. And yeah, there are mitigating factors to that particular death threat, but still, like you said, if you could take it out, it would still be an improvement.

1:16:44 Yes, yeah. A couple other comments here. Rosa says, people say they want to kill people when they're yelling, and in the heat of the moment, it's not always literal.

1:16:57 Right.

1:16:58 But as Scott Hall said in the Torch Talk, I need to queue up the quote from that with me because his inflection is so perfect. He's like, don't tell the audience you're going to do something that you're not going to do. And when you say, well, they're not going to take, no one takes, like, it's so weird.

1:17:19 There's a weird logic. It's like people say it in the heat of the moment, but they don't mean it. So Why say it if you're conceding that when you say it, no one's going to think you mean it? And you're subtracting from that a fact, which is that it is a hack thing to say, and that the great promos, the wrestlers who give great promos, don't need to say that. It is a crutch for not being sophisticated and charismatic and having a vocabulary beyond just a hack death threat. it's sort of what it represents. It's just low hanging fruit that you're admitting people won't take seriously, but you sort of take people out of the moment.

1:18:01 Cause now you've said you're going to do something that you're not going to do. So that's bad. But if you go, well, no one thinks you're really going to do it. Well, then don't say it. And you go, well, people do say that at the moment. Well, really people shouldn't like, I mean, Go ahead, Josh.

1:18:16 Also, people say that in the heat of the moment, but those people don't also have a Texas death match lined up later where you could theoretically... When I tell my wife I'm going to kill her because she opened the door and stubbed my toe, I'm not actually fighting her later. So I'm not going to have the logical opportunity to kill her, and there's not the underneath animus.

1:18:37 You don't actually say that to people who you actually want to kill. It's almost exclusively for people who you would never kill. Yeah. So.

1:18:45 Rosa says, it's just another way of saying, I'm gonna kick your ass it's just a fighter threat and and by the way there are degrees of this there are times it's like i'm gonna kill you when i get my hands on you and you don't it's like it does feel like it's just a thing that's said i would still say find better words like make us make it more memorable and less hack less just most common denominator All that. I would still say there's a better way to do it. And there's tons of examples out there.

1:19:08 I think you're better off threatening to do something with your words that fans can imagine. Oh, no, he might do that. And I don't want him to. Or, oh, he might do that. And I really want to be there to see it. As opposed to he's saying something that is just what people say in the heat of the moment. But it doesn't it's not actually descriptive of anything that I might actually see. So I'm therefore trained to not take it seriously. So I'm going to see something less than what he said figuratively. I just don't think you want to spend a lot of time defending that when you have your choice of all kinds of other things you can say. That said, there are degrees of it, and there are times, Josh, where someone says it,

1:19:41 and they're not saying it in the heat of the moment figuratively. They are trying to get people to watch their match and care more about it by thinking people are going to think, wow, I've watched wrestling for 18 years, but no one's ever said they're going to actually kill someone for real, and this is going to be the match when it happens. There are times wrestlers say it in that way. And that's the biggest eye roll. Oh, I bloodied you. Some people say I'm going to break your ankle. Some people say I'm going to end your career. Nah, that's not enough for me. I'm going to end your life.

1:20:10 I'm going to kill you there. I mean, there are times when it's said in a way where it's not in the heat of the moment. And those are the worst because it's not going to happen. And it's just hack and stupid. So I am conceding. There are times when it just feels like it's, it's a throw in line. I'm less upset by it. I still think it's kind of hack and just be better, but you know, just be better than that. But I get defending those instances as not a big deal. But it's the fact that sometimes it's someone looking at the camera going, this is going to happen, pay to see it.

1:20:40 Right. Those are absolutely the worst. Like we said, the Bandito thing, we both agreed, would be better without it, but like wasn't an egregious example of it happening. I'm also tired of like people saying they're going to kick each other's ass. No one ever delivers a foot to the backside of anyone ever during a match. Yeah.

1:20:56 I'll defend, I'll defend that figure of speech more so. Cause I don't think it, I think people understand it is a, it is a specific term that implies something broader. And I don't think you can defend it to say that I'm going to kill you is, is the same thing. Um, I'm going to maim you. I mean, it is a little wordy to go, I'm going to beat you up so badly that you're going to miss six to 12 weeks of action. Like that isn't really in our, you know, there are, but anyway, Zach Barber says, Wade, normally I agree with you. Ordinarily, I'd agree with you, Wade. But in this case, Bondito wasn't cutting a promo. He was talking to Hangman. Adrenaline was flowing. Yeah, I mean, I would agree. This is in the bottom 25% of, you know, offensive,

1:21:33 you know, on a one to five scale. This is like a 1.5 in terms of, oh God, he did it again. But I'm still not going to defend it. It's just, you know. Goodfellas says, say what you mean. Mean what you say. It's not always all jokes. Be accountable. adrenaline cranked, but you're a pro.

1:21:52 Be disciplined.

1:21:55 A couple other chat comments. Milo J. Erickson says, I was really shocked how quiet the crowd was between huge bumps. Also, no stakes in either match. It really took down the whole show. I mean, that is part of the thing. When you have a match where it's just about waiting for the next spot and you end up getting numb to it, you know, you got to top yourself. And that is the argument against this style of wrestling, Josh.

1:22:14 Yeah, I agree with both those points. I wasn't shocked at the crowd. I was sitting at home doing the same thing. Like, all right, well, what's the next thing? Can we get to the next thing so we can get to the end of this match? And it doesn't help that that's exactly how they were constructed, was they were just spot, nothing, nothing, nothing. Oh, here's the next spot.

1:22:34 There was no flow in either of the matches to that end. And also, like you noted, no stakes, which made the spots not even matter.

1:22:42 Yeah. Derek Mitchell says, I did like Bondito's anger and frustrations over what happened to him last week. And then he called Hangman, Mr.

1:22:49 Hangman. It sounded surprisingly cute, partially because of his accent.

1:22:56 Totally, yeah. There's a little bit of squeeze the cheeks. Oh, look at you. You're so angry. Look at you go. It's like a little dog yipping at you. And you're like, yeah, I'm supposed to feel threatened by you, but my ankle will be fine even if you try to bite me through my pants. And let's see. Was there anything else? Oh.

1:23:18 Zach Barber says, not going to lie, Wade, Minnesota had me sweating for a minute. I was worried y'all were going to elect Michelle Tafoya. This was super funny last night because all of us in Minnesota know how it works. I mean, Minnesota is geographically a red state. 90% of the state land-wise is.

1:23:35 Is red.

1:23:35 And so the map's filling up with all these tiny, small districts with nobody in them who give you vote counts right away. Ooh, 120 people, 250 voted for Tafoya. And so the whole state's filling up in red. But there's only three places where people live. You know, Duluth, St. Cloud, and the Twin Cities. And they haven't gone to them yet.

1:23:54 And so nobody in Minnesota was sweating anything. And there was a comment on social media today. It was really fun seeing people on social media who had never thought about Minnesota's population density pattern before panic for like an hour and a half last night until the, the, the twin city St. Cloud and Duluth numbers came in. Um, so I, yeah, I, my sister in Wisconsin was like, oh my God, you're going to lose the governorship. I'm like, you live right on the border. You should know better than that is not going to be, uh, that, that is not what's happening. But, um, yeah, so no, but nobody, I should say nobody in Minnesota was worried, but we were equally worried. We knew the red, we knew the

1:24:31 outstate rural areas with no density, uh, We're going to vote to FOIA.

1:24:35 That's just what they do.

1:24:37 But there's good evidence that it wasn't going to carry over in the Twin Cities. All right. Let's bring our mystery guest into the show. He is listed as Josh's co-host. Who could that be?

1:24:52 I don't know.

1:24:55 All right. Well, let's see. Josh's co-host. We were bringing you on. The camera is off. Your microphone hopefully is on or this would have been a lot of buildup for nothing. How's it going, Josh's co-host?

1:25:05 It's going okay. Josh, what are you doing?

1:25:07 You're my co-host.

1:25:10 Why are you on with Wade, sir?

1:25:12 This is not going to work.

1:25:14 I'm very jealous right now.

1:25:19 Uh-oh, I didn't know this was going to be that happy.

1:25:21 Actually, I just wanted to call and say hi and tell you how great of a job you guys are doing. And I'm proud to be an American today. The blue tsunami was beautiful.

1:25:32 It was.

1:25:35 Thanks for the kind words also earlier, Wade.

1:25:41 I love the dynamic. I love your bluntness. I love that you know what your opinion is of things and you state it and you think it through and you make your case. It's fun when there's no like, well, let me make sure that I don't say something that somebody else who I think is smart will disagree with me on. You're like, you're just you, you, you have figured out what you like and what you don't like.

1:26:05 And you make your case for it. It's not just about what you like either. You know, it's like, it's, you don't, you don't make it just about you. You don't like it. Cause you're like, not only don't I like it, but I think it's stupid. And here's why, like, it's, it's fun. And so, um, yeah, it's really fun.

1:26:17 Yeah. And I, I just try to like give the perspective from a fan's point of view too. You know, it's, uh, you know, I'm not an insider. I never wrestled, but, uh, you know, I've been watching it my whole life and, you know, and I just love talking about it.

1:26:32 No one should ever apologize for if you haven't wrestled, that makes you unable to decide whether the product that is not aimed at wrestlers, but it's aimed at consumers, viewers, customers, fans, you are, your interpretation and reaction to what happens is the whole purpose of everything. So never, and I say this to everybody, never apologize. Well, I don't know if I'm qualified to say it. Of course you are. You're qualified to one, have an opinion, what you like, but you know, part of what we do here is not, you know, it's not like level one fandom. I have a favorite wrestler and I just hope they win. And there's level two, which is I just like the style of wrestling and it's my escapism. We, you know, try

1:27:10 to analyze like, why are things done? Is it productive? Is it a bad habit? Is it hack? Is it derivative? Is it a poor execution? Something that used to work and they're oblivious to it. We obviously take that approach with our analysis here. And so do you. So you don't need to say, you know, you don't have to say, oh, I just do it from a fan perspective. But what I like is you, you are, evaluating it through the lens of, are they doing this out of a bad habit or a hack or because it's something the promoter likes?

1:27:39 Is it really serving the fans? And you're one of them and you have your opinions. And pretty much everything I'm saying applies to Josh, but they're just a different cadence and tone we.

1:27:48 Were definitely two different personalities to say the least and uh one other thing that i called.

1:27:55 Adam hold on josh was gonna say something and i finally get to be here to pause you so josh can say it.

1:28:00 Okay josh go ahead it's very in line with my characters that i would not interrupt either i know i was going to say that it felt like everything nice you had to say about adam just a a backhanded insult to the way I present my thoughts. And it was proven when I refused to interrupt you to make that point.

1:28:25 Oh, I see. Not the second half of what I said, but the first half, which is you're not scared.

1:28:30 Oh, no.

1:28:31 You have your opinions and you say them. You just say them not meekly, but more meekly than Adam.

1:28:39 I agree.

1:28:40 But but you are brave it's more tone than i know this is like a whole psychology breakdown of different people's approaches expressing opinions you you are you are bold with your opinions but less bold in the uh actual expression the cadence of the volume or the i don't know of them i don't know this.

1:29:02 Is it is true i am rarely yelling and cursing unlike some people.

1:29:07 Yeah pretty bombastic yeah there is there's less there's more bombast with adam kidd than than josh white or you know.

1:29:14 It's a personality uh defect on my part but it's gotten me pretty far in.

1:29:18 Life i would i will say this i'd rather i'd Well, I won't say who I'd rather listen to two of, but I like that you two are different.

1:29:28 Thanks. Yes.

1:29:30 And the one other thing I had and then I.

1:29:32 Got to go is I know.

1:29:34 Who the favorite is and I'll just leave it at that between you and you guys.

1:29:39 Have a great night.

1:29:39 Everybody go VIP and we'll talk to you all down the road.

1:29:43 Thanks guys. Thanks. Thanks Adam.

1:29:45 It seems like you guys got along. I don't want to ruin the name of your show, but I guess it's sort of a week to week mystery.

1:29:52 It is kind of odd because like we are very different as a, you just illustrated be described. See, we also just completely get along because we, we, I think I know this probably in the first episode recorded is that like, we are very different people. We approach things completely differently, but we have similar like ideas of how wrestling can be and maybe should be, which is a bit of a stretch, but we philosophically, I think we're in line. If, approach is not always.

1:30:22 The same yeah there is a there is a quality of knowledge and um the ability to process and process ideas evaluate what's happening and and express them that you guys are a good match on and it is just the the the tone and the bombast that's just different and it works it's it's awesome it's just it's really work it really works check it out everybody pwtorchvipinfo.com And then you can send us your evaluation of their dynamic and how they're both wonderful, truly, in their own distinct ways, and that it works. Or you can say, it doesn't work for me. Never listening again. Or just pick a favorite.

1:31:07 I'm Chris Maitland.

1:31:08 I'm Justin McClelland.

1:31:10 We host Wrestling Coast to Coast, a podcast of independent wrestling. Every week, Chris and I review a different show or talk about important topics from around the indie wrestling world. Learn about the hot underground stars and the future main eventers before anyone else. You can reach us at TorchCoastToCoast at gmail.com and me on Blue Sky at Mind of Maitland.

1:31:29 You can reach me at Blue Sky at Justin McClelland. Find the show on your PWTorch Daily Cast podcast feed. Search PWTorch on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, stream the latest shows on PWTorch.com.

1:31:42 All right.

1:31:46 Let's see. Zach Barber said, for me, it was seeing... Oh, people don't know what they like Tuesday night. For me, it was seeing Texas turn blue at long last. My home state finally did me proud. A total wipeout. Derek Mitchell says, one of the best moments of last night was seeing Peggy Flanagan beat Michelle Tafoya, which was a highlight for me. Seeing Abdul El-Sayed winning the Senate seat for Michigan. My favorite was just Tafoya just standing up going, we are going to... She shows a crush ice or something.

1:32:11 It's something that you actually do with ice, but she goes, we're going to dismantle or something ice. But she said it was just Bombast, Josh, bombast. And I was like, yes, those masked thugs are going to be held accountable. We know who they are. They're on camera. And now we have a government that's going to actually try to thwart and check the lawlessness and the brazen, disgusting, shameful violence that was authorized by the current administration. And not everybody will get what they have coming, but at least- Hopefully they're nervous about what they've been doing because that is not America. Rip ice apart was a quote. Rip ice apart.

1:32:51 Love it.

1:32:52 Yes. All right.

1:32:55 Cool.

1:32:55 Josh, anything else you want to say about tonight's episode?

1:32:59 I don't know.

1:33:01 I feel... No. I didn't like it. In general, let me say with some bombast that I did not appreciate this episode as a whole. Okay. And I appreciated the non-wrestling parts more than the wrestling parts, which is completely out of line with my general AEW appreciation. Yeah.

1:33:22 Yeah.

1:33:23 I know you weren't, you weren't thrilled when I said, Hey, what goes this week? But I like, I know, I think it's, I mean, whatever. It can be good to have somebody who's a fan of this, but I, I, I'm, I'm more on your side of things when it comes to this for sure. So I liked having someone to talk, talk to about it, who wouldn't just be going, like if Zach was a co-host, just went to work this week for me, I'd have.

1:33:41 Been too angry.

1:33:42 Right.

1:33:43 You got enough rants out on John Cena on Monday. We don't need a Zach and Wade rant on Wednesday.

1:33:50 If you are not a John Cena fan and you would enjoy hearing me explain why I am not a John Cena fan, you definitely want to listen to the Wade Keller post show from Raw this Monday night. The chat was kind of doing the equivalent of like slam dunk competition and the players on the bench like, yeah, I'm just like going nuts for but I was on a row. John Cena's on my screen right now because of NXT on in the background. He's like, this is why I love NXT. To me, NXT is passion. NXT is creativity. It's like, no. In storyline, it is not creativity.

1:34:29 It's a governing body. It's a promoter putting a ring up so that we can find out who a best wrestler is. The point isn't Overtly to entertain people. Yes, it is, but he just doesn't get it. But it's opportunity season, according to John Cena. I didn't know that. It's opportunity season.

1:34:50 Here I am trying to enjoy fall and it's opportunity season. Oh, God.

1:34:59 I'm not going to rant on him, but he's just irritating me out of the corner of my eye right now. His facial expressions, his body language. He acts like the entertainment... for a third-grade class who are on a field trip, and he's the guy who comes in and entertains third-graders. He talks to wrestling fans like they're third-graders. He makes facial expressions, and it worked when he was appealing to third-graders, but as a wrestler selling merch, but he's selling... I don't know. I'm not going to do it. Is he worse than he used to be, Josh?

1:35:32 I think he's more patronizing now, yes. I think his facial expressions are actually not as bad as they used to be, but He's a better actor now, but yeah, he's more patronizing and therefore more annoying at this point, I would say.

1:35:44 I think part of what happened is that he used to be able to talk about an opponent and defending a title or winning a match or settling a feud. And now you apply that, which by the way, that personality got him booed by 80% of the audience, almost 100% of the male audience for most of his career. But when you strip away the idea that he's talking about defending a championship or trying to win a match or settle a feud. And he's just hawking merch or promoting matches or gushing to an obscenely distasteful level for the brand as just a pitch man. And he does so with this voice the whole time while making cartoon faces and it's like he's turned up the annoying parts of his personality. And then the fact that he's doing

1:36:36 it just to sell the brand and be this hack shill with nothing really to say is, is the part that's really annoying. And then, yeah, anyway, I said, I'm going to do it now. But anyways, a lot more on Monday.

1:36:50 Right.

1:36:50 Well, it doesn't help that he's not even just selling the brand. He's selling WWE club, WWE. So not even just WWE. It's, Which, to the crowd's credit, got an audible groan on Monday night when he dropped it.

1:37:04 I loved it. I loved it.

1:37:05 Yes.

1:37:07 Zach Barber, The Super Chat.

1:37:08 Here's the irony.

1:37:09 War games, unlike Hell in a Cell, only ever end in one feud. Sting versus Dangerous. So, though it should, it never.

1:37:17 Ends a feud. Yeah.

1:37:22 I mean, I don't think a gimmick match has to end a feud, though, to be... worth having it should just be a match where you there's a there is you want to see a baby face team beat up a heel team i guess in a way that would be sort of fit within the realm of ending a feud if the baby face team definitively wins but yeah yeah anyway you know Go ahead, Josh.

1:37:51 It's like we were talking. Some of us noted this match had no stakes, and that's not always important, but they also didn't have a build where we had a team of babyfaces coming together that we wanted to see get revenge on the Don Callis family or anything. It seemed like a truly random assortment of people who have been feuding with the Don Callis family, but since they composed roughly half of the roster, anybody would have fit that bill.

1:38:15 Yep.

1:38:17 Mark Piscetti says, war games, money in the bank, hell in a cell, et cetera, should only happen when a feud calls for it. The annual thing is so stupid. um indeed um and mark mike good says uh big bumps should feel special when we get them all the time they no longer have much impact and that is i mean obviously roman reigns is sort of the opposite but there's not a bump roman reigns takes that isn't essential to the story he's telling and memorable and the the there is an excess even in a regular aw match where you know it I'm not saying dial it down to Roman Reigns' level because there's things Roman is...

1:38:51 He has a cachet and a look and he's part of an environment in WWE where it works and it went to an AEW at all. But he can take a few moves and make it work where Solo and Bryce Keyes could not. You know, I mean, there's something very special about Roman Reigns, but there is something about... It still would be good to dial down the density of big moves and kickouts in a standard one-on-one straightforward match, but especially... the blood and the violence in a blood and guts match. But I just think Tony Khan wants to over deliver on everything he does, you know, in the moment and, you know, be sure that the fans who want this got what they wanted. And I, I will circle back and say, I genuinely giving them credit. You, they,

1:39:31 they delivered what they sold this to be. I just am against the timing and the framework and two of the matches and the length and not having a little bit more build to justify it. So I have my, you know, criticisms of a lot of it but in general the the the content of the match gave people what they are selling the content they're the selling point is what they delivered which is you're going to get to see a bunch of violence inside a cage with a bunch of people blood weapons and stunt bumps and and you know good truth in advertising right.

1:40:01 They absolutely delivered what you ordered Now, the problem is I wouldn't have ordered that personally. But for people that did order that particular pizza, it was a nice, delicious dinner for them. I'm sure they enjoyed it. It was a little cheesy. Yeah. Was it lacking meat at times? Absolutely. But I think it delivered what they wanted. But I am with Mike. I don't know what he was saying a second ago. Like, we see so many bumps in AEW. Like, Roman Reigns, LA Knight powerbombing him through a table at a pay-per-view, like, I don't know, a month or two ago.

1:40:34 I will remember that longer than I remember any of the bumps Darby took today. Exactly. Yep.

1:40:40 That's the point. Jason from Grand Rapids, if I remember right, says, Josh, I'm loving your show with Chris Lansdell and the one with Adam Kitt. I've been binge listening all week at work.

1:40:52 Oh, well, the great thing about having me on twice a week is you can binge. You can get way more Josh White than anybody needs. No, don't say that.

1:41:01 What if you're here? People need more and occasionally.

1:41:05 And also this. Don't forget that.

1:41:09 I'm glad Mike could brought this up because I met you earlier. The leaf blower was the most creative item tonight. Now you're like, is a leaf blower really the weapon of choice? Like you're just going to blow wind in someone's face. That's not really going to help you win or defend yourself. It's weight wise. The weight is in the handle. If we talk about the physics, it doesn't really matter. know the force of the blow it's like the opposite of a sledgehammer it's like holding the metal part of a sledgehammer it doesn't really do anything but if there's a bunch of tacks on the mat and you want to get rid of them because you don't want to land on them or legos i'm sorry plastic bricks toy bricks that was toy bricks yeah that was

1:41:46 the one why do you think they well is it are they is it a trademark issue where they're not allowed to say it or they they're they're they're or their word Lego is going to be mad that their product is being mentioned as being part of a violent match. I don't, I don't know what the, what the reason is, but they seem very, Excalibur seemed to scold Tony Schiavone for screwing that up.

1:42:02 Yeah. I feel like there's not like Lego action. It'd be like calling a puffs tissue, a Kleenex. Like it's, that's just the word we use for it.

1:42:11 I think my hunch is it probably was Legos though.

1:42:13 I mean, it might, it probably were actual Legos. They probably went to target and bought Legos so they can say Legos. I, I don't know. I guess they just don't want all that Lego heat and attention. Or maybe Lego has some sort of special WWE project they're working on. Yeah, really.

1:42:31 But the leaf blower was fun. I don't want to land on thumbtacks. I'm going to blow these out of there. It was fun, but it fits Okada's character.

1:42:38 It works with Okada, right.

1:42:39 But what was in the women's match? What was it where one of the women was preoccupied with something? And then it ended up backfiring. I mean, that happened in so many matches.

1:42:52 It happened 12 times in that match. Yeah.

1:42:55 I'm trying to remember.

1:42:56 I'm reading over this again. I mean, Harley had a ukulele that I think Lena stole from her.

1:43:02 Oh, God, yeah. We should talk about it. We shouldn't talk about that, but we're going to talk about that. What was the point of that other than, you know, ha-ha, little guitar. Got taken, but I got a big one here. Was there a point to it?

1:43:15 I don't know. Luckily, she took, like, 30 seconds to turn around, break it, play to the crowd, and throw the ukulele, giving Harley time to get the guitar out. I mean, you could have just done a guitar shot, but it wouldn't have been funny. I mean, it still wasn't funny, but somebody somewhere probably thought it was. Yeah, yeah.

1:43:32 I'm, as you talk, trying to find the spot in the match where one of the women needlessly paused and postured, and then it ended up hurting. Oh, another thing. One of the cool spots got totally screwed up. Tekla with the shooting spider, the shooting web.

1:43:51 That could have been cool.

1:43:54 Because she seemed to be kind of fumbling with it, and then Statlander got too close. She kind of had to, I think, kind of stall. Like, what are you doing? Let me try to fill time a little bit. And then she blasted, just completely overshot her. I mean, yeah, that was not great.

1:44:09 It's kind of embarrassing.

1:44:10 And it's a shame, because it could have looked really cool.

1:44:12 Right, because that would have been something I'd never seen. And to be fair, I'd never seen somebody shoot a web just onto a stage randomly. That's also weird. But yeah, I've never seen somebody web somebody up. Another thing that happened that I just remember now is Alex Windsor hit Sky Blue with a board wrapped in barbed wire. And the barbed wire just stuck in Sky Blue's ass so deep that it pulled off of the board. I'm like, oh, damn. Yep.

1:44:38 That happened for sure.

1:44:39 That happened. Yep.

1:44:42 Um, Oh, I love Taz saying that didn't look like an ordinary briefcase. It had more weight to it. Um, when Persephone came out with a briefcase, like he was, he was trying to like, make sure that people briefcase, you know, you get hit with one. It wouldn't be pleasant, but this is not an ordinary briefcase. There's something else going on here. Um, that, that was a nice touch.

1:45:02 Yeah.

1:45:02 And then Persephone trying to extract stats teeth with, with pliers. Um, that was just dumb. Um, And, uh, the smiley face trash can lid. I'm just kind of looking at the notes here of different things. Like this whole thing feels like they're being scored on originality rather than they're in a legit fight where there's stakes and they're trying to win.

1:45:24 And that's, that's obviously, you know, a downside of this type of, this type of match.

1:45:29 Right. What did Willow end up having in her backpack? She came out with her backpack and she took something out of it at some point and have no idea what it was.

1:45:39 Um, Yes, I.

1:45:41 I'm going to just stop watching for a minute, if possible. Yeah, no, no. So much happened, it all just blended together, but I know, because I remember she came, I'm like, oh, she got in that backpack. Yeah.

1:45:52 It was Legos broken glass.

1:45:55 That was the Legos, okay.

1:45:55 Yeah, that's what it was, yeah. Oh, super chat here from Derek Mitchell, got to get this in. Taz mentioned Mercedes Monet hasn't faced anyone like Marina Shafir before, which is true in AEW Sphere. If my memory serves me correctly, she has faced both Ronda Rousey and Shayna Baszler. um oh interesting yeah so it's a good point like in aw she hasn't but taz is wrong in the sense that baser and rousey certainly fit whatever taz is saying is distinct about shafir shafir rousey and baser are in that same category.

1:46:27 Right that makes sense but i also understand why taz would say that as far as her aw run is concerned literally nobody even close to what marina does yeah and Two Mercedes credits. That'll be three of the four horsewomen of UFCs.

1:46:42 Okay. Who's missing?

1:46:45 Is Jessamyn Duke the other one? It's so weird that I know all their names. Only because of the wrestlers is the only reason I know.

1:46:55 Derek Mitchell says the last ukulele in wrestling was Tiny Tim at Uncle Elmer's wedding.

1:47:00 I don't know.

1:47:01 We might need to fact check that. It feels like there had to have been a ukulele moment at some other point. But I'm not going to do a deep fact check on that one. You know that last segment you're just listening to and the next one that you're waiting to listen to? Those can be one second apart with a VIP membership. You can unlock our commercial free versions of our shows. pwtorch.com slash govip tells you how to do it. That's pwtorch.com slash GoVIP. Options exist within the Apple Podcast app using your Apple account, through Patreon, which by the way, you can sync up with Spotify, or just about any iOS or Android app. With a full VIP membership, you can customize the feed for individual shows and clusters of shows and themes. Go to pwtorch.com

1:47:48 slash GoVIP for full details on all the options to listen commercial free. And with upper tier options, unlock our VIP exclusive podcasts that run throughout the week every week. All right. Um, I'm just kind of, as we wind down here, just think, think if there's anything in the men's match that we didn't give credit to that was notable or memorable. Cause we got certainly wrap, um, had a lot to talk about regarding the, the, the screwdriver, um, aspect of it. Oh, I did enjoy when Steve Borden entered, he started doing the stinger splash he's punching singer splash and tony shivani goes.

1:48:22 Look at steve go look at steve go he's like yeah just it just seemed like a he just seemed genuinely super excited that like his the son of the wrestler that he's followed his entire career staying is out there um, you know, rallying, but on it, like I'm kind of poking a little bit of fun, but that's what you want is actually a.

1:48:43 Sense that the baby faces are down a man. And when a new, when a, when a, when a baby face evens the odds and is fresh and beats up the heels, that's where the heat should come from. Not from fight forever. You sick F. oh my God, like that kind of thing. Like you actually want there to be an emotional investment in the outcome where there's a sense of jeopardy and then a sense of relief and then a sense of jeopardy and a sense of relief, like watching Minnesota election returns when you are worried that the awful racist race baiting campaign that Michelle Tafoya and Demuth or whatever her name was ran against Somalis, Somalians in Minnesota, which is cruel and crass and out of context and just shameful, just absolutely disgusting. Um, and you

1:49:27 did not want to see that. I mean, I got to see all the commercials and it was just like what they're, what, what they have done to frame a few people who did something wrong, which by the way, there's a bunch of a few people who of all types who have done something wrong and to just make it seem like everybody is like that. It is, I mean, just go away and never show your face again. Cause it was absolutely disgusting and shameful. Um, the whole approach.

1:49:51 And obviously it was inspired by Donald Trump. I mean, he's been like that from the beginning, um, with, with Hispanics, but, and thankfully they came, they came back. Um, he paid a price anyway. Um, so yeah, there's my late political rant, but yeah.

1:50:07 My local ads were all trans issues. Cause it's apparently it's just men competing in women's sports is just every single, I haven't watched a lot of football games this week, but Is that what's happening in every sport across the country? Because that was the only issue in South Carolina, apparently.

1:50:25 And for the record, we did flip it blue for the first time in like 30 years.

1:50:29 So it's amazing.

1:50:30 Yeah. Yeah.

1:50:32 It applies across, across the board, except for Florida. I mean, it was just an amazing night. Mississippi has a Senator of democratic Senator. There was something that was like, like, I'm not kidding. Like 40 plus 46 for Donald Trump. And in that, in that district two years ago and the Democrat unseated Republican, like, The disgust people feel for for ICE and Donald. I mean, Donald Trump. Oh, you know that I'm building a ballroom. Yeah, well, you know, I can't afford groceries or my medical bills. And you're it's just like it's I mean, it's a it's a shit show and it's embarrassing. And it's it's beyond parody at this point what he's turned into, although it was bad from the beginning with making fun of. gold star

1:51:09 families and demanding Obama's birth certificate, which was just blatantly racist and shame on anybody who forgave him enough because of the stock market or whatever. There's plenty of people to choose from who are, anyway, it's, he's done. So why am I ranting? Um, but, um, did they call Mississippi?

1:51:27 Oh yeah. I mean, maybe I'm, I'm, maybe I'm premature on that, but I mean, it's there, the Democrats ahead and the outstanding votes are almost for sure, Democrats. So, I mean, I think they said it's a 95% chance that it goes to the Democrat.

1:51:41 Yeah.

1:51:42 So, Zach goes, Josh, thank your state for not electing Darlene Graham, for sure. That was, that was awesome. The margin of victory, the late break towards Democrats, totally deserved. Yeah. It's been, it's been scary, but now I think we're going to get, yeah, I think we're going to, We're turning things around for the better. And I think this is, I love the celebrations in Texas are just amazing. Like the, just joy. This is who we are. We aren't, we aren't what it's been. This is who we are. And it's going to be that way. And just the joy and celebration is amazing. Anyway, I was going to say something else along those lines.

1:52:26 But yeah. Oh, I know.

1:52:29 There was a social media post where someone said, imagine being an elementary school teacher. or a middle school teacher and watching the events of the evening and realizing that in coming days, all your kids are going to be taken away for four days and turned into a different gender.

1:52:47 I mean, it's gotta be that way. It's just how things are going to be.

1:52:52 Like, like the fact that he, like we had a president who just saying something that has literally never happened. It's absurd to think it happens and, And the only people who could possibly believe it have an IQ under 65 and no worldly knowledge or access to the internet or have never fact-checked. Like, for him to get away with saying that, and the media just continues to just kind of treat him as like he's just, I mean, how?

1:53:18 And there's still people this day who think, like, that's a thing. Repetition makes gullible people believe anything. And he knows that. It's part of his, it's his one gift is his ability to con people. by repeating something over and over again. And humans don't think somebody could be so shameless and brazenly lie. It's such a brazen liar.

1:53:36 And so shameless about it. So it must be true because he says things that I'm kind of glad someone is saying, cause I'm not allowed to say him. Cause I am scared of colored people too, because of X, Y, Z like, like that's the inner dialogue that, that led to this 10 year disaster with, you know, sort of a four year reprieve, but he was still there. So anyway, All right. Probably a horrible couple of years. It's good to have a moment like last night and the upcoming days ahead. JC Scooby says a proud Ohioan. Almost every state can say that.

1:54:10 Just Florida.

1:54:11 I mean, like every other state. I mean, there's like exceptions. Minnesota reelected Emmer, which is just shameful and annoying. But overall, just a historically, I mean, a generationally historical night that has redeemed the world's view of our country. And for good reason. Josh, anything else you want to say? About anything.

1:54:29 About anything. Yeah. Just as a round out back to the match, I was surprised, I'm glad, but I was also surprised that Ospreay came out last, just because the way he is, I would guess he would go out first, but I think it was right that they brought in the world champion last. It was odd they had Fletcher out first, though.

1:54:52 Yeah, he's a world title challenger a week and a half away. Why would he go first unless he Wanted to be there when Ospreay came out, I guess. So he would get the maximum chance to beat him up because they had the advantage.

1:55:02 Right.

1:55:02 I wish they would have said that. He assumed Ospreay would come out first. Because I also.

1:55:06 Assumed Ospreay would come out first.

1:55:08 Yeah. Yeah.

1:55:09 I mean, it would have been fun to have Ospreay go, ha ha, fooled you. You've been out here getting beat up all this time.

1:55:15 Cool. All right.

1:55:16 I'm sure there's more we could kind of pluck out. But yeah, Wardlow was there. Did some power moves. Did some no selling.

1:55:22 He got blown up at some point by a booby trap because Darby's still doing that.

1:55:26 Yeah.

1:55:27 Yeah. The Bucks have exploding shoes and tacks on their shoes, but those are two things they've done before. I mean, there really wasn't a lot that was new.

1:55:36 Yeah.

1:55:37 Yeah. Not that they need to be new, but it is sort of the selling point of it.

1:55:43 Yeah.

1:55:43 All right. Cool.

1:55:45 Thanks, everybody. Go VIP if you want tons of cool stuff. Library and new stuff every day. Exclusive stuff. PWTorchVIPinfo.com. And we'll talk to you Friday after SmackDown. Check out the flagship. Zach Caterham joined me yesterday. It's our blue logo show. Go check it out. Search Wade Keller and subscribe. Thanks, Josh.

1:56:05 We will talk to you soon and listen to you sooner.

1:56:07 All right.

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1:59:09 You get a seven-day free trial, by the way, to kick the tires a bit and see if you like the service. And then sync it with Spotify, and you can listen to commercial-free versions of our free shows like the Wade Keller Post Shows, the Wade Keller Podcast Flagship, our flashbacks, and also the PWTorch DataCast lineup. Again, all commercial-free, a nice streamlined listening experience. But with third-tier membership, you can also unlock all the VIP podcasts, including Everything with Rich and Wade, The Fix with Todd Martin that I host with Todd every week, the Wade Keller News Bulletin's post-pay-per-view roundtables, and an array of other VIP-exclusive podcasts with different hosts and different themes. Check out the lineup. Go

1:59:44 to Patreon and search PWTorch and subscribe and sync it up with Spotify or stay within the Patreon ecosystem. Either way works, go to Patreon and start your seven-day free trial. If you're listening to us on the Apple Podcast app, on Spotify, or any other app that allows you to rate our podcast, please take a moment to give us a five-star rating. It really helps us in the algorithm and helps them know that you recommend us to others.

2:00:09 Just look for a place to rate the show on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to our shows, and please click that five-star rating. And of course, thank you so much for listening. A PWTorch VIP membership doesn't just give you ad-free access to these shows and a ton of other VIP-exclusive podcasts throughout the week, but you also gain access to our unmatched, vast library of wrestling history, our contemporaneous week-to-week coverage through our Pro Wrestling Torch weekly newsletters dating back to the late 1980s, along with streaming and download access to hundreds of retro radio shows from the 1990s, including some of my interviews with wrestling's top newsmakers in the 90s. And also our podcast library dating

2:00:45 back to the year 2003. There's no larger, longer-spanning pro wrestling podcast library than that that comes with a PWTorch VIP membership. Now approaching 20 years of podcasting. Go VIP and dive into our post-pay-per-view roundtables, our coverage of some of your favorite eras of wrestling, top-name long-form interviews, and special format podcasts that we've done throughout the years. PWTorch.com slash govip. We have a streamlined sign-up form, and you can pay with PayPal or directly with your credit card or debit card in one or two minutes. From right now, you can be a VIP member and diving into our library, pwtorch.com slash govip.