WWE RAW POST-SHOW (11/2): Keller & Machado talk Liv vs. Becky, Sami vs. Je'Von, MITB cash-in teases, Cena, Gable vs. Ethan for IC Title

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1:25 slash govip. Now, PW Torch brings you the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show. It's time to talk this week's WWE Monday Night Raw. All right, Javier, not an entirely unpredictable ending to the main event. We don't get a pinfall or submission between Solo and Rice Keys, but we did have a squaring off in the ring of the 9-4-6 and the Bloodline to continue their feud. And then they brawled. And then we had the answer to who, how are we going to fill out the full team?

2:12 And Cruz Montana, formerly Santana, shows up in a mask, joins the 9-4-6, unmasks. Didn't seem like there was a huge reaction, even in Brooklyn. Wade Barrett noted he's from New York. He'll fit in really well. with the 9-4-6, which is, you know, based on their affiliation in Oakland or their roots there. So, yeah, I mean, there's multiple things to talk about here. I'll say, first of all, I don't think anyone's going to pay to see a Solosakoa-Royce Keyes singles match again. That was sluggish as it gets.

2:44 And I didn't get a sense from the crowd heat that they were disinterested, but I also didn't feel that they were, like, ready to explode as soon as they entered the ring and squared off, as Wade Barrett said. And when they started fighting, it didn't, to me, I've seen a lot of people, a lot of crowds go absolutely apeshit when there's two groups finally start hitting each other and fighting. And I didn't get that sense either.

3:08 So I don't know. Those are kind of my impressions, but I'm certainly open to hearing differing interpretations of what happened tonight. Not a big thumbs down, but it doesn't feel as red hot as the framing of it is telling me it is.

3:23 Yeah, I mean, they definitely did not seem to be putting forth the effort that they could have for a big man match. And I don't know, I don't know if it was just me, but Solo seemed gas half the way through. So maybe it was a cardio issue, but it was, you know, yeah, it was sluggish. If they could actually, I've seen them both have better matches, so all you have to do is just, you know, uh, what is it? Uh, the big, the big, big Ben slapping me. That's really all you need to do. This was not a great, uh, version of that. And I think it kind of, you know, in a way I'm fine with it because I knew it wasn't gonna have an ending anyway.

4:05 Yeah.

4:05 Yeah.

4:06 So, um, is what it is. Uh, I was expecting something to happen either. I mean, the way they framed a couple of shots kind of seemed like solo was gonna turn on Roman. a couple of shots were going. I was expecting either that happening or Jacob Patu come back and be on Keyes' side. That was the other thing I was thinking about, you know, trying to figure out whether the masked man when he first came out, and I got to look at his eyes, you know, before I got a good look at him. You know, is it LA Knight? Is it Sami Zayn? Because I know Sami, you know, because of the earlier stuff with Sami Zayn. But no, it was Cruz Montana. Yes.

4:45 So, Javier, talk about Cruz Montana.

4:47 What do you.

4:48 What do you think people unfamiliar with his work or fleeting memories of his work in other companies over the years, what should they look forward to? Now, I say that with this caveat. When Carmelo Hayes joined the 9-4-6, now let's pretend Carmelo hadn't been on the main roster for a while, and you were asked, what do you expect from him? You would have all these exciting things to say about him, but the real answer would be, Well, no matter what he's done in the past, he's going to be an anonymous figure without any personality development or follow up, just standing next to the other people in the faction. And if you were a fan of Carmelo, you'd be disappointed in the fact that he could be

5:26 they could drop anyone into that spot because he's showing nothing of the of the personality they had first. So unfortunately, Cruz Montana may face the same fate.

5:37 That was not a loaded question at all. But, but, but honestly it's, it's true. I haven't really seen much. They haven't done much with Carmelo. It's just another body that hang out in the background. I'm fine with the two, the other two guys whose names I can't remember because they left absolutely no imprint in my mind. So yeah.

6:00 Every time Joe Testor says it, you can tell he's like, Oh, I'm supposed to say their names. Let me look at a sheet of paper and say it, you know?

6:06 Yeah. Yeah, just the two big guys. That's what I know them as until they do something to earn.

6:14 It's Lucian and Prince.

6:15 I don't know.

6:15 Something like that. Yeah, until they do something to earn their names, pretty much, which they haven't. That's how I.

6:23 Felt about Kyler Murray with the Vikings, and I'm still not sure of his name because he hasn't earned me memorizing whether it's Kylan or Kyler or Kalen or.

6:31 Yeah, so... I mean, I could say I mostly followed him in Impact, not TNA. And he was involved with Eddie Kingston and what's the other guy's name? Tito Ortiz. Not Tito Ortiz.

6:49 I love it. Oh, okay.

6:53 Ortiz.

6:53 It's been a day.

6:54 That's fine. That works.

6:56 Yeah, you know, the two who hate each other.

7:01 You want me to help you. I'm in no mood to help you.

7:06 They had basically the whole gang kind of affiliation, so it works for him. And I would say he has a good charisma, great in the mic, great at what he does, does bring that edge and that threat, which I keep saying, which is so far so good with this group. they still feel, you know, despite, you know, saying that they haven't had any, you know, real development, they still feel dangerous. Um, which again, great. Uh, and adding this guy, they, uh, you know, is, is a bonus to it. Um, my, uh, Carmelo already feels like he's in the Austin, um, uh, uh, theory, uh, position where a lot of promise the first, uh, two showings.

7:53 And then, you know, we're first showing and, uh, pretty much melded into the background, and that kind of feels the same thing with Haze, Carmilla Haze, and now you have like a new shiny toy, but let's see once we get past war games and they continue with this, if we get more development, kind of like, I mean, they know how to do it. They did it with Judgment Day, so, you know, everybody in Judgment Day has a personality. Hopefully we can start getting some of that kind of, you know, interplay between the members instead of it being that just standing behind keys.

8:29 Yeah.

8:30 So quiz question, Javier, just because I'm in the mood. Is it Bronco Price and Lucien Nima? Or is it Bronco Nima and Lucien Price? Or is it a third option I did not mention?

8:41 Can I phone a friend?

8:45 Bronco Nima, Lucien Price.

8:47 All the names sounded familiar. So I must have heard them.

8:50 Well, yeah, I mixed them up for you.

8:53 And it doesn't help that they're WWE names. They're like, you know, not real. I have a stupid comment. I watch a lot of anime, and I have a hard time remembering their names, too, because they're all weird. And that's kind of like watching WWE. It's almost the same thing.

9:08 Yeah, yeah. Ortiz really didn't have a first name. He might have, like, years ago been Angel or something.

9:15 Yeah.

9:16 He's just Ortiz. So when you're struggling to figure out if it's Tito, it's not Tito, but it's not, it's really just nothing.

9:20 No, I remembered it was just Ortiz. It's just that I'm like, did he have a first name? And then that sounded familiar and it didn't filter it before I said it. I've been like, Oh no, that's the MMA guy.

9:30 Okay. Whoops.

9:31 Yeah.

9:32 I've been there. I've been there. I know, know what you know, what you're feeling. All right.

9:37 Um, I've, I've called, I've called, uh, Jada Parker, Jada Pickett Smith on the show. And I don't know if you caught it.

9:43 Oh, I might've, but I, I forgave you and forgot it. So, by the way, Eric Moy and the Jackals, it was always just Santana and Ortiz.

9:55 Yes.

9:55 All right. So, a number of things I want to talk about. Should we be concerned about Royce Keyes, given that this was the highest profile match he's had? Main event against now a veteran in Solo Sokoa on Raw. You can say Solo looked gassed. So, you know, let's be fair. Keyes might have wanted to go out there and tore the house down. but Solo wasn't having it.

10:21 But I haven't been, I haven't seen a Royce Keyes in the ring going back to AEW, and especially in WWE, who I think is putting on a type of performance that's going to cause WWE fans to think he can deliver compelling, entertaining matches in the ring that match the level of his push at this point. I think some of it, is by design. I think they want him to seem confident in no hurry. I do my power moves.

10:58 So I don't know, but I, I, what he's doing just, it doesn't feel like the average WWE fan is being like, Oh God, this guy's going to take out Roman Reigns. What do you think?

11:08 Yeah.

11:08 I mean the, the, I was, watching closely the match, because I don't always watch closely the matches. I'm not a move guy, you know? But I wanted to see them... It just never felt like they got out of first gear. And I have seen better work from Solo previously. Not that he's been stellar or anything, but this didn't get to the point of like, oh yeah, this is a pretty good match. Which was what the Gable... Ethan Page match.

11:44 That one got really good by the end, but about halfway, I'm like, okay, this is a good match. It wasn't great, but it was fine. They were doing the same thing. This never even approached that, and I'm going to give them the benefit of doubt of the stories and the stuff that's going to happen. I didn't clock it, but I didn't feel like they wasted too much time on the match. Sometimes they'll have a 15-minute match and then have a blow-off and then blow it up. Um, this one felt like it just went, you know, a certain amount. Uh, there was a nice move that I liked, which was the, uh, the cross body that, um, that, uh, keys, uh, hit. Um, and there was some good moments, but yeah, this was not like, you know, and the worrying part is that

12:27 it was the main event. You would think that they would put in more, uh, for a main event, even if the match was only to go like three minutes or five minutes before the, before the schmaz.

12:37 Yeah.

12:38 All right. Well, let's pause, introduce ourselves quick here, and then we'll put up some chat comments that are reacting to what we're saying and get people's thoughts. And then also, we got callers in the waiting room who will be joining us soon. We'll continue to incorporate chat comments. We'll check the inbox, wadekellerpostshow at gmail.com if you're interested in participating that way. And then talk about other things on the show, which included John Cena Classic. And we know almost nothing about it other than when and where, and a single who. We'll get to that, including the who, who thing that Cena, I don't know. We'll see if he even knew what he was, what Fabio thinks. Cena was aware it was happening there. And more. Your time

13:21 is valuable. Go VIP and listen to our shows commercial free. A nice streamlined listening experience. pwtorch.com slash go VIP for full details on a commercial free listening experience. And with a full VIP membership, You can create custom feeds for individual shows or groups of shows by theme and also unlock nearly four decades of archives and access our ad-free website with VIP exclusive content. pwtorch.com slash govip. Your time is valuable and that's one of the reasons we offer VIP membership. pwtorch.com slash govip. This is the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show on Monday, November 2nd, 2026. I'm Wade Keller, host of the show. editor, publisher, founder of the Pro Wrestling Torch weekly newsletter and the website PWTorch.com

14:05 and the host of various podcasts. Search Wade Keller in your podcast app to subscribe. The podcast version of our post shows is the red logo. It includes the Dynamite and SmackDown shows also, along with flashback episodes throughout the week. And that's on the podcast feed. If you listen to us on the podcast side, please join us live. If it works out for your schedule, live on YouTube. We stream our shows live in a video format right after Raw, Dynamite, and SmackDown. We waited to stream live today until 10 Eastern, so we had more people who had a chance after work to catch up on the show. We just kind of arbitrarily chose something a little earlier than normal, but not so early that y'all wouldn't have a chance to

14:44 see Raw after dinner. So hopefully that worked out. We did that last time, too, and it seemed to get some positive feedback. We also have our Blue Logo Show. That is our flagship podcast. It is not on YouTube. It's audio-only, podcast-only. Tomorrow, Zach Haydorn. is joining me formally at PW Torch, now with Brass Ring Media and Sports Illustrated.

15:01 And we'll cover the big topics in pro wrestling. So get your questions in for the flagship Wade Keller podcast at gmail.com. For questions for the flagship, we'll try to get to the emails during the show. And yeah, so wadekellerpodcast.gmail.com. But we're here to talk WWE Raw live on Netflix. Raw was early, by the way, in case you're wondering, because they are taping SmackDown, which airs this Friday. So CM Punk and Kevin Owens might be fighting right now as we speak. Um, it's going to be, yeah.

15:30 Anyway.

15:30 So stay away from social media if you don't want spoilers.

15:33 Yeah, exactly. Well, I was thinking about Joe Tessitore had mentioned, you know, like, Oh, CM Punk's got to get through Grayson Waller on Wednesday at NXT before, before he faces Kevin Owens. It's like, no, no, he doesn't. What he's got to do is get through this Kevin Owens match on injured without a black eye or another one so that he can wrestle Wednesday on NXT. Um, they're filming them out of, or they're, they're filming them in order, but airing them out of order anyway. Um, so, uh, Yeah, so anyway, I don't know where I was. But we're here to talk raw. And Javier Machado, PWTorch, longtime PWTorch contributor and podcaster is with me. Javier, welcome to the co-host chair. Good to have you.

16:08 Always happy to join you. Although we might have to stop doing this for a bit because every single time I'm with you, they add a new member to the group. And if I keep doing this, they're going to have more members of the Kalis family.

16:20 As you said, we might have to stop soon. And then you look down, I thought you were experiencing a flood.

16:27 No, no, but I don't know if you can hear the thunder.

16:29 No.

16:30 Aren't there in Florida, are you near where the major rain is happening, the flooding?

16:35 Yeah, it's raining a lot, but I'm not in a flood zone. It's just that just because of how the house is built, it's on the same level as the street outside.

16:44 Oh, wonderful.

16:45 So wind blows water underneath the door jamb.

16:49 The wonders of engineering.

16:51 Yep.

16:51 Every house has something where you're just like, what?

16:53 What?

16:54 Didn't they think of that?

16:55 That was a bad idea for my parents when I was like two years old. I had no opinion on.

16:59 It at the time.

17:01 All right.

17:02 Well, we're glad you're here. Hope you stay dry and hope you retain the power. Doesn't go out during the show here.

17:08 That's what I'm more worried about. Yeah.

17:10 Javier writes WWE previews for PWTorch.com. Hope you're visiting the PWTorch.com every day. We've got articles that will make you think. There's so few editorial articles. based websites. I get website, posting websites with a lot of editorials these days. And I really liked the analysis and the opinion side of things.

17:29 And we've got a great group of writers. So when you're done kind of clicking on the headlines, you know, two thirds of which are not really news, but the headline is compelling and you feel like you're wasting your time. And then there's some news and you feel caught up. If you've got some favorite sites, settle in and at pwtorch.com.

17:45 And you can read more in-depth, smartly written analysis pieces every day. We've got our formats, hits and misses, view tracker, Rising Stars, Fading Stars, and other formats that I think you'll like then, now, forever, and much more. So yeah, PWTorch.com, check it out. And it includes my live TV coverage of Raw, Dynamite, and SmackDown. We've got reports on NXT and Impact, of course, PLEs and pay-per-views too. With flashback articles, I just put up a Chicago Ridge, Illinois, ROH live event report from 20 years ago this week with Samoa Joe in the main event and just an all-star cast of wrestlers, many of whom are still active, like Roderick Strong. Well, you can go look at that report. Throughout the week,

18:23 we put up flashbacks from 10, 20, sometimes 30 years ago, going back to our paper copy newsletter. These aren't just results. These are like detailed written reports of people who are at the building. So it's kind of cool to relive some of these classic events with names from the past. So anyway, all kinds of reasons to visit our website.

18:41 Hope you're doing it. And yeah.

18:44 All right.

18:45 Oh, and in my TV reports, I was going to mention, you can find a link to our post shows. It also has a link to be a caller on the show. So if you're want to be a caller on the show and wonder how do I do that? First of all, join us on the PWTorch YouTube channel. The link will take you directly to us in my TV reports and then click on the caller link. And about four to five weeks, I get it right. Every once in a while, I leave the wrong one there and even my co-host gets lost like this week. But I usually correct it pretty quick if I do that. So if you get an error message, just check back to the TV report and I'll fix it. All right, let's shift. As I said, we had some chat comments here on our A topic,

19:17 the main event. I have some more things I want to say about it too. But let's roll through some of these chat comments to get a vibe for what our listeners are thinking. First up, Derek Mitchell with a super chat. Derek, thank you so much. Super chats are open for anyone. We appreciate it. Derek Mitchell, king of the super chats here on this channel, says, with all due respect, unless you didn't watch NXT, it was pretty obvious to me. That was Cruz Montana when he hit the spin the block on Roman. And you can see his eyes through the mask. Yeah, I don't think they were trying to hide it from people who knew. I think, I mean, well, I mean, why wear? if you, if you know him and he shows up, then you know him.

19:52 And if you know him and you can see him through the mask, you know him. And if he shows up without a mask and you don't know him, it's still a surprise, but they wanted to do the black hood thing. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think, I think if you're, if you're a NXT viewer, you wouldn't necessarily a hundred percent. No, he just hasn't been around, I guess, uh, I don't know. He's been around long enough.

20:10 I guess you might recognize the eyes, but I don't think they're too worried about it. They just wanted the sense of, who could this man be?

20:16 Javier.

20:16 I recognize the eyes, but since I haven't been watching, I don't watch NXT, I'm like, man, it looks familiar. It's not. And I'm running through my Rolodex of current wrestlers that are on the show as who one might have been, and I drew a blank, and then when I saw him, oh, that's why I recognize the eyes.

20:33 He also has striking eyes, too.

20:35 Yes, for sure. I hope he gets to show his personality i mean we covered this in block a but i hope he gets shows personality more than carmelo hayes has i actually hope they both do um i'm even for uh uh price and nema to get a chance to kind of show that they're more than just uh background interchangeable background players without distinct distinct distinguished personalities um all right then uh crofton said i agree with you 100 wade regarding the sluggish main event and also the crowd reaction to it which was sort of there Rude Dog in the chat says, that was the quietest main event I remember seeing in a long time. I hope Keyes and Solo have more they can do, that there's another gear they can shift into. But on the bright side,

21:19 at least with Keyes, he doesn't have to. Because Price and Nima can go, and especially Carmelo and Santana can go. So they can really turn it up. And I think if Keyes is going to be the primary opponent they're building towards Roman... that's a there's a challenge there but you can mask keys by having him be the guy who gets hot tags or does power moves and no cells while the other people are creating all the movement and taking all the bumps um and in in santana and especially carmelo they have that now so in a sense you can kind of camouflage a little bit of what is a weakness with keys um but the crowd heat is is an issue i mean i mean do you want to elaborate on that more javier what why

22:02 do you think What is missing here that the crowds are not just going crazy? Is it because Roman's character has been all over the place? You know, they just, oh, it's a 9-4-6. And he's actually kind of nice to them today. He said there's nobody he'd rather talk to than the fans. Like, I've never seen him say anything nice to the fans. Like, he cared at all about them.

22:18 That jumped out to me. But is that playing into this? Or is it just people aren't that into Keys and the whole 9-4-6 group?

22:25 Or what?

22:26 What's going on here?

22:29 I don't know. I mean, there have been moments where they've really been into the stuff that they've done. You know, they did get into when the brawl finally happened. I think it's like the chaos of it. I think they're in for just the adrenaline shot of when stuff happens, which was a thought I had because it's like, oh, well, okay, this got hotter when the new person came out. And I'm like, well, now we're kind of... It feels like we're kind of venturing into the... into the stump booking side of things. We've got to make sure we have a surprise every week. We had Carmelo and that got a buzz and this felt like it was almost structured the exact same way, except now you had Reigns involved too.

23:16 Someone in that writer's room is very formulaic because... they basically copied what they did the previous week when rains finally showed up and they had, they basically copied everything. And like, if you're shrewd at all, you know, it's not going to go like last week, you know, something was going to go wrong because they just copied and pasted it.

23:38 Yeah.

23:40 And that, that's like really basic level storytelling. And, you know, and, and like, even if you don't, even if you can't see it, your brain kind of recognizes it. So like it, it, that's card and they do that a lot. So I'm not, this is not me saying that I want them to like just purposely convolute stuff. Cause that's also bad, but you know, don't, don't, you know, don't be so trope-ish.

24:07 Is that the word I'm looking for? That's kind of, you know and yeah. Cause so, so like it works, it works. Structurally it works.

24:16 There's a paint by numbers aspect to some of what they're doing and, Yeah, you kind of get a feeling like, well, this won't be it. What else is going to happen? And subconsciously, you're kind of expecting or anticipating it. I do think you hit on something, and I'm not going to do a big picture philosophical commentary like I do sometimes on this, but this is WWE getting the reaction to the type of narrative structure and tone and world that they create and what they emphasize. They don't emphasize...

24:47 There's certain things that traditionally have been historically successful in pro wrestling and emphasizing, and they do it on the undercard a bit, but they don't really on the main show. And so it's a combination of things. Again, I'm not going to do a whole big thing on it, but when matches don't have finishes and announcers don't care over and over and over, they don't want to decry interference or condemn interference or decry non-finished. you condition the fans to think, well, I guess the match outcome wasn't really important.

25:17 WWE doesn't want to make it seem like they've booked something that is disappointing, so the announcers act disappointed in it. But that undercuts the whole premise that a match outcome matters. And when you do that week after week, month after month, year after year, eventually, you know, like my analogy a couple weeks ago was like, it's like eating very average Thai food at a restaurant. If your local Thai restaurant serves you, it's kind of bland, you know, carrots out of a big can and non-spicy food without fresh herbs, you just kind of think, well, this must be what Thai food is. And I kind of like it. I'm full afterwards. But if you go to a really good Thai restaurant, you're like, oh my, look, the layering, the

25:54 everything is just, and you can say that about any, you know, Indian food, Mexican food, whatever there is top level. And then there's just kind of, you know, slop just trying to make ends meet at a, at a corner restaurant. Dodie's kind of putting out sort of not a slop, but a version that fans don't know any better about.

26:10 They just think this is what pro wrestling is. But what happens is the emotions eventually catch up with that approach and the framework. And so the stakes are, well, there's this rebel group that doesn't have a ring entrance. Security is escorting them to the ring, but WWE hasn't really owned the car incident. That seemed like something where you'd be hearing about the police involved, charges being filed, charges being not filed. There'd be some follow-up there. They don't even mention it. a certain wrestler's name who fans may not remember. There's another guy who got hit by a car cause they don't talk about him. So we won't talk. Maybe it's, maybe we're not, maybe there's been a rule. We're not supposed to mention his name anymore.

26:48 So there's not a consequence. Carmelo Hayes joins, nothing happens. No, no announcer goes, what happened to him? Why did he do this? People were invested in it before, but now.

26:57 He's just a guy.

26:58 He's just a guy who's there. No different than, than, you know, Nima and price in terms of how he's portrayed. So why should people care about all this? So they just kind of, it's just that everything just sort of has dull, dull edges to it. And they haven't conditioned fans to believe that match outcomes matter. People joining factions matter.

27:18 We want to know why there should be consequences to things that happen outside of the ring. No, nine for six. They're just in a sanctioned match. We advertise.

27:24 So.

27:25 And then you get an equal finish. And I think fans are sort of anticipating it. Like you say, Javier, whether they realized it explicitly or not, I don't think there was disappointment that they didn't get a finish because fans have now been conditioned to go into a match like this, not even thinking about the finish. Like, it's crazy.

27:39 They're waiting for a moment, an angle. They have beaten out of the fans without them even resenting it. The idea that there should be an outcome to matches or that there will be or that it matters if there is. Cause so often there isn't. And so I think it's a lot of things, you know what I mean? I don't think that's just everything, but I think this is a, an example of a manifestation of WWE's booking philosophy coming back to, to bite him a little bit.

28:04 My favorite moment, one of my favorite moments of the night was when they went to the locker room and Reigns came in and they, and they were showing camaraderie, you know, camaraderie amongst, amongst each other. And I'm like, I want to see more of this. Like that would have been a perfect chance of like, Hey, how's, how's Jacob doing?

28:21 You know?

28:22 Because Jacob's falling off the face of the planet. Why do they do that? Because they want us to forget about him before he makes the surprise save next week.

28:30 Exactly.

28:31 Because next week they're going to be outnumbered and then Jacob's going to be the one to come in and pull them out of the fire. Or the next time, not necessarily the next week, but the next step on the way to the war games.

28:43 It makes the announcers feel like co-conspirators in a scripted story. And that chips away at fans taking anything that they do with, uh, as credible because it seems like they're participants in a carefully crafted story with, with exclusions that would not be excluded if it weren't for the fact that they're on the payroll and they're trying to, you know, selectively point things out, but also selectively ignore things. And of course they should be asking about Jacob too. Of course they should be going, why, why is Adam Pierce even letting them in the ring? There should be, it's easy to come up with an explanation. They're just not even bothering to do so. Um, and I mean, it's just a throwaway line, you know, we don't, we don't, it's,

29:18 you know, the, Everyone's wondering where Jacob Batu is after what the 9-4-6 did, but they don't own what they do. They just want to do it for the effect in the moment, and then they don't want to own it afterwards. And then they think they're being tricky by lulling you into forgetting about it. So when he shows up, you're more surprised. But in reality, his return, you know, you don't have as much of a reaction for it because too many things that have been done have not been followed up on, you know? Carmelo joining, as I said, the hit and run or the car accident, the car incident, things aren't followed up on. So, you know, the SUV being burned down, it's just sort of, oh, it's a thing that happened. So you condition people to be into

29:53 something that's ephemeral. Wow, that was cool. But there's no resonance. There's no follow up. So it doesn't really have a lasting impact. And so everything is just, you're, you're living for a moment, you know, it's, it's, it's just cotton candy. It just kind of is there. And then it's gone. Um, you know, it was, Oh, I got a little sugar rush.

30:10 Okay.

30:11 But there's nothing, no, no, nothing left.

30:14 And granted it's Pierce. And that's kind of Pierce's personality that he's, you know, useless his job. Um, but like why, you know, there's going to be interference. So why don't you say if there's any interference from any, any side of the team, you get suspended. Or something along those lines. You'll be arrested or what have you. At least make it seem like the company's not also in on it.

30:38 And you want announcers to be disappointed. They never say, oh, I'm so disappointed. I want to see who was better between Solo and Rice Keys. In fact, everything about their commentary suggests this was a match that was just to fill some time until we got to the more important thing, which was the angle afterwards. And we're not giving you the finish because it's not the type of match where you deserve a finish because that doesn't fit our way of booking. And again, you don't have to explicitly think about it that way, although I think a lot of fans do in this era, to have your sense of this match having gravity be dulled to near zero. And so then it just becomes about communal chants and catchphrases

31:19 and You know, that type of thing. That's why fans are there. They're not as invested. You know, they want to chant OTC, but they don't really have an emotional attachment to it. They just say it.

31:31 Hey, everyone.

31:32 Longtime PWTorch columnist Sean Radican here to let you know I've revamped and renewed the Radican Worldwide Podcast for 2026. a weekly VIP exclusive. Every week, I break down four or five of the biggest trending topics in pro wrestling. I also present my analysis, providing insight that helps you understand the story better or see it another way than maybe is the controversial take out there. Then I bring on a special guest for the second half of the podcast.

31:59 Sometimes it's a wrestler or someone else who works in the business. Other times it's a guest analyst who brings their specialized point of view on a particular key topic in the news. Recent guests have included Bronson Reed from WWE and PCO. One of my areas of specialty is the Japan wrestling scene, so I often cover a big topic from Japan with PW Torch's own Alan Farrell, Kelly Wells, and Chris Lansdell. I don't just cover the news. I don't just riff on the news or give a standard hot take. I'll bring my decades of studying this industry and talking one-on-one with dozens of wrestling promoters to each week's show so you understand not just what's happening, but the context of why. Get ahead of the news. Get

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32:45 Anyway, another couple of comments here on Solo. Darrell Freeman says they have hurt Solo so much by putting him back with Roman and took away everything that made him outside of them. Derek Mitchell with another super chat. Thank you, Derek. Says, with Solo returning to the bloodline following the recent wave of assaults and kidnappings, has he formally acknowledged Roman as his tribal chief since these events transpired? Yeah, I mean, is Solo... damaged and is this another you know we can look back and go is that a story that should be i mean they're just sort of going oh isn't it neat they're hanging out again like it it's like they're not the the gravity of of solo um not wanting to be with them and reluctantly um losing

33:26 imagine having to to face the the tribal chief that's sort of like it almost feels like they changed plans i would rather that they changed plans and this was the master plan because it's kind of a poor execution Cause it's sort of a low key, a low key reunion. And they might go, how can you, how can you say it's low key? They're against the nine four six, the whole show's built around it. But it's, it's sort of, it's just not a big deal that they're like that Solo's agreed to hang with them. It's like he never really had principles to begin with.

33:51 Well, I think part of the problem is the fact that Roman's unlimited schedule. That's the big part of it. Cause if he's the tribal chief and you're trying to tell the story with Solo and they're not interacting all that, all that much, I think they're kernels of the story there because he did say that when he talked to his brothers, they say, oh, you're back. And then he's like, I'm not back. We're working together, but I'm not acknowledging anything.

34:19 So he's more there as an ally than officially back in the bloodline. And I think the idea is that he's settling in more and remembering what it was like. I think, I think that's the idea they're going for. Um, particularly like, you know, how, how, uh, Roman, you know, greeted him and, uh, today. And that's why I said, I liked that moment because we got to see just a snippet more of them, you know, of them, uh, the, you know, how they're interacting with each other and like, you know, the, the heat between, you know, uh, you know, amongst them has dropped down a little bit. Uh, and maybe, you know, he, you know, you could run a story from that point on where, you know, Roman gives him more and more, um, because he stood up and he

35:05 was the one who faced Bryce Keyes. Roman seemed happy with that and that he's fighting for the family. So, I mean, you could work more into that. But again, the pieces are there, but it's not come together.

35:23 I think people got behind Solo before he rejoined or realigned with the bloodline. They thought, I can like the Bloodline, I can like Roman, I can like the Usos, but I like Solo for a different, more authentic reason. I feel like he took a stand, he stands for something, he's hanging out with LA Knight, I kind of like that.

35:43 And he carved out his own identity, and that is now absent. He's just kind of shrinking in the presence of Roman Reigns. He's not overtly subservient, he's just sort of cardboard and one-dimensional suddenly. And I think that's just disappointing for people who invested in him. There's no... Again, I just think the announcers should own more than they do.

36:03 And there's a passing comment here and there. And I think they think they've checked the box when they do that. But I think there should be more granular analysis of what is this doing to Solo that he's back with them and own the journey that he's taken this year. And talk about his, I don't know. I mean, they just, they cover, they only talk about what they think is relevant to the absolute the the tops the top layer of the story they're telling and they leave a lot of other things out and it just it ends up kind of again dulling your dulling your anticipation for things to have payoffs and so again it just comes down to these ephemeral sugar rush moments you know and you know and and again i think it shows up um

36:50 in in the crowd in the the crowd reactions um like uh you know, Mr. Big Play Brace in the chat goes, it was very slow. I think people were just waiting for the group to fight. You know, and that gets to kind of, they know that that would be formula and they just kind of realized that. Darrell says there was no heat because they didn't tell the story and they killed it the week before last and there was no follow-up last week. Yeah, Javier.

37:17 And compare what's the story now with, and since he brought it up, it's a good time to bring it up. the bloodline 1.0, you knew what every single member of the bloodline was feeling. Sammy Zane wanted the place to belong. That's what he was looking for. Jay, who had been already beaten down by Roman Reigns, he basically became his lapdog because he had stood up against him and was finally beaten down. And now he's like, well, what's going on, you know? So he was, he was highly resistant to, um, to, to Zane coming into the first. So you knew where everyone was standing and you were cheering for Sammy Zane because, you know, you, you identify with him because, you know, we all want a place to belong. So you're, you're, you're,

38:06 you're cheering him on and you're like, and you know that Jay's not a bad guy because you've seen what Jay's gone through. And you're like, man, cause it just, you know, uh, you know, get it together. And, and Jimmy, well, I don't trust Jimmy cause Jimmy's kind of like a little bit of loose cannon and, and, you know, um, you knew everybody, you know, what, what do the Usos really feel about the stuff that's going on now? And they seem happy, but it's also, like you said, all superficial.

38:34 We don't know what their, what their, their, their, their, you know, how their, their minds are working. Jay for a long time has just been like, you know, um, just, you know, going, going, just going off when, you know, when, when he wants to go off and, and there hasn't been like, like who, Who's Jey Uso now? Who's Jimmy Uso? Who, you know, who's Solo?

38:58 Sometimes I study what Jimmy's doing and Jey's doing, hoping for some signs of dissension or differentiation. And more weeks than not, obviously, they're like, oh, no, they're just kind of just one-dimensional cheerleaders. They kind of reverted.

39:11 Yeah. So, I mean, even, I mean, before you had, they were playing off of Heyman when Reigns wasn't there or they were playing off Reigns. you know, and I think part of, and the other issue, like when you mentioned one of the issues that, that reigns in particular, since he's not around a lot, like dwarfs, it's, it, when they're not, when Reigns is not around, you're like, okay, I, I, these people are on a level, but when Reigns shows up, he dwarfs the person he's got, he's got, he's standing across.

39:39 Notice that was Zayn. Zayn was like impassioned and like, you know, he was like, and then he, you know, he had me going there, you know, all the stuff that he said on the, uh, in his promo, but then, you know, Reigns, Reigns retort while he didn't really say anything of substance felt like he just smacked, uh, Zayn down and like, yeah, okay. There, there levels, there was levels to this. And as much as I like Zayn, you know, Reigns, his personality is like on a different level. Um, and you know, so, so that's, that's there too. And, you know, like, and I know so, so it was not going to compete, compete with Reigns either.

40:15 So, I think the thing that was cool about Solo when he was away from Reigns is he got to blossom. He got to kind of have his own identity. It's like, you know, if you always go out with a certain group of friends and there's just, you know, there's sort of a hierarchy of who dominates conversation or shows personality and someone sort of has a dynamic with them. And then suddenly two of the three friends aren't there. You get to know this third friend. You're like, oh my God, you had all this personality? Yeah, but the other guy's just dominate conversation and i they expect something out of me i don't get to be myself and when they're not around i get to be more myself or like we like you that's what happened to solo you know

40:49 and and we're not now he we're not really getting that um so yeah it's just it's just it seems like there's more here um that more here to be had than we're getting it's i don't know another analogy like a band who had you know a first album that got some critical acclaim the second one took off the third one really took off but now there's a fourth one and they got families are not taking drugs anymore, or they're taking too many drugs or they're fulfilling the record contract, but they resent their cut, whatever. It's just like, you know, sometimes they're just a drop off and it's fine. It's, it sounds like them, but it doesn't really stick with you.

41:23 And some of that is, I think what we're getting with this nine for six bloodline thing, it's not as bad as some of the NWO stuff near the end, but you know, you really have to work hard to make anything that feels like a sequel, not feel kind of derivative and, and, uh, in dumbed down or carbon copied.

41:40 And there's a bit of that here. I think they think there's things they're doing well, by the way, I mean, the nine four six, again, coming out to no music, I give them, you know, points for that. They don't feel officially endorsed, um, and explicitly, you know, promoted, um, or, or given a stamp of approval. And then also the, uh, the, the videos are well done, you know, I mean, they're leaning on, you know, no one's safe a little bit too much where I'd rather get to see a little bit more about the dynamic with them, but the vibe that they're creating these videos and it has kind of a contemporary edgy, you know, kind of ominous street vibe to it, I think has been positive. I mean, then Royce Keys has been good and his facial expressions and

42:19 his demeanor. I mean, there there's elements here that I think they're focused on, but I think they are focused on those thinking that's enough. And I think we're all, I get the sense thirsting for a little more layering originality and more granular ownership of, of each of these individual players and we're getting.

42:36 Yeah, and the thing is, like, I normally would defend it because, you know, I like playing devil's advocate because it makes conversations more interesting, even with a side that I'm not necessarily, you know, sold on. I could play devil's advocate and say, well, okay, this is heading to war games. And hopefully, you know, and it's just the groups that matter now. And then once we pass that, and then you have Montana going after the Intercontinental title, and you have Keyes going after the big title, and you have the other two going up against the... Going for the tag titles and feuding individually with the Usos.

43:13 And then maybe you'll get that, right? And Jada Parker is feuding with Naomi, who came back. Maybe you'll get that after that. But. They don't have a good track record. Following that up, I'm thinking with a wide six.

43:31 That's not even Devil's Advocate. It's just an explanation for why everything we're saying is true. Like, they're just, you know, I mean, you're not contradicting our evaluation of the crowd tonight or the lack of depth to the characters or a disappointment in it. You're just saying... well, they're intentionally stalling until they get to the next chapter.

43:49 Yeah, yeah.

43:49 I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. Well, I mean, I think that for sure that's what they're doing to get to war games. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that then they have in their minds that they're going to then, you know, expand this out. You know, I just, it just, between Division, and granted Division had the issue with all the injuries and everything that went on there, both them and their opponents. You know, so you have an out there Um, and the white six was also, you know, that never, we never got anything other than those like three, uh, um, those three, like three vignettes, uh, you know, where a couple, couple of the rest was talked. And then, and there were a bunch that were never shown. Cause, uh, I think, um,

44:31 I think it was Loomis in the interview said that his was never shown like, uh, or maybe it was the other guy, um, you know, that, that, that they all recorded, um, you know, introductory videos we were complaining about that with wide six was you know we got two internet introductory videos i think was nicky and um the the redwood whatever uh uh big rad whatever um we're like the only two and then like pretty much rowan that's so you know um the you know and then nobody else and we were like saying hey and there was no follow-up to that um you know and again vision and then you had kamala huss just show up there's no follow-up to that you know bad you know track record hasn't been that uh stellar on.

45:08 That yeah A few other comments here. Derek Mitchell suggests, was it possible the crowd was bracing for a long night with the SmackDown taping and the most anticipated match of Punk versus Kevin Owens later?

45:18 I mean, yeah.

45:20 I mean, I think historically, if a crowd's really into something, they will expend their energy without... It's not like saving timeouts for late in the fourth quarter. NBA coaches think about that. Fans just get pulled in emotionally to whatever's going on. If their idea was to save their energy and this was red hot, they would have expended their energy and then Maybe regretted it later, but you don't want to be the match where you go, well, we got no crowd reaction because people were reserving their energy for something they cared about more later. That's sort of almost begging the question. Why do people not care enough to respond and why are they saving their energy for this?

45:51 I think there's a chance you're right, Derek, but it is damning as our original hypothesis. Mark Buschetti says not having keys cleanly go over makes any pay off with him in Roman inert. Yeah, there's that. Mello and Montana conflict with each other and hurt what you can get out of each one of them, says Darrell. We'll talk to him in a minute. He can elaborate on that if he wants.

46:15 Oh, yeah.

46:15 Swole says Mello did get hard cam with Jay arguing in the standoff and trash talking. Yeah, I mean, he did. I mean, we're not saying they're not filming him. We're just saying we want to hear from him. Explain to us why you decided to join this group. Did you get recruited?

46:31 Did you get hired?

46:32 Um, did you, did you apply what, what attracted you to them? We have more of a bond with Carmelo as a WWE viewer than we do the other three or, and Jada, the other four. So give us something. I think people care more about Carmelo than they care about Rick's keys right now. And man, the creative has not, has not honored or recognized that. Uh, Crofton says, I feel like nine for six have been in this building the faction phase for months. I was in attendance for their debut in Ottawa back in 1987. And I've grown a beard since then. No, he didn't say it since 1987. Um, but everything else he said, um, yeah, you have grown a beard since then. Uh, all right. Then Eric Moy says my biggest problem with the main event angle was

47:11 that it telegraphs the feel good win for the bloodline at crown jewel. Maybe that was always going to happen, but then at least let Royce win tonight. Um, Derek Mitchell says, I think the initial reaction, once Carmelo joined nine for six, people were happy to see him on TV because he was, cause he was, cause he hadn't been on TV for months and they were happy. It wasn't going to AEW.

47:30 Yeah.

47:30 I don't know how many people were cognizant of the AEW rumors with the, you know, clickbait sites and the guest news sites.

47:39 Um, yeah.

47:40 Yeah.

47:42 Did you know that you can enjoy commercial-free versions of all of your favorite Wade Keller podcasts and PWTorch daily casts on Spotify? Just go to patreon.com, search PWTorch, and subscribe to a VIP membership tier. You get a seven-day free trial, by the way, to kick the tires a bit and see if you like the service. And then sync it with Spotify, and you can listen to commercial-free versions of our free shows, like the Wade Keller post shows, the Wade Keller podcast flagship, our flashbacks, and also the PWTorch daily cast lineup. Again, all commercial-free, a nice streamlined listening experience. But with third-tier membership, you can also unlock all the VIP podcasts, including Everything with Rich and Wade,

48:18 The Fix with Todd Martin that I host with Todd every week, the Wade Keller News Bulletin's post-pay-per-view roundtables, and an array of other VIP-exclusive podcasts with different hosts and different themes. Check out the lineup. Go to Patreon and search PWTorch and subscribe and sync it up with Spotify or stay within the Patreon ecosystem. Either way works, go to Patreon and start your seven-day free trial. All right, Arlay says, I think them getting a message across and speaking less for now preserves the danger. In a few weeks, they'll likely be doing regular in-ring promos, but I think what they're doing is good for now. So that's a devil's advocate view from Arlay, I would say. Well, I

48:56 shouldn't say, that's a, it's a view contrary to kind of what we're saying in that it's not that creative, thinks there's not merit in doing it, but they think there's merit in delaying it and that now it would get lost in the mix. That the idea is they want to be a mystery. You want an aura of mystery and intrigue over it. Now, my counter to that is I don't think so, but even if so, I would disagree with it. I would disagree with that philosophy.

49:26 I think people aren't feeling, oh, it's mysterious that Carmelo's not there. This makes them more ominous and more threatening and it makes me wonder what they're going to do next. I think it's clear that if you have Carmelo and now, and heck, Jada Parker talk more and not just throw a couple one-liners out there, you add this layering and nuance to them that you shouldn't be scared takes away the mystique. It actually adds a dimension to them. You should have confidence. And frankly, I think Carmelo and Jada and Montana are capable of doing that. So don't sell them short. What do you think, Javier?

50:04 Well, and I think that, because they did let Carmelo, I think, talk on one of the promos, if I remember correctly.

50:10 Yes.

50:11 Just one line.

50:12 But it was just very little. Yeah. They should have had one where he's the one doing most of the promo.

50:17 Exactly.

50:17 They should have one where Jada was doing most of the promo, where we get at least a sense of where they're coming from.

50:23 Yeah.

50:25 I don't need the big two guys. They're the heaters for now. So that's fine.

50:28 I get that.

50:31 But at least, particularly Carmelo, because Carmelo was a babyface and a beloved babyface not too long ago. What was it that did this thing? Was it the fact that he could win back the U.S. on that side? Or what was it that triggered this? why did he, why this change? I think they asked him and then he just, you know, blew, blew it, blew him off at one point. Again, my memory is a little bit hazy there, but you know, and, and, and again, it's because, Oh, we'll, we'll, we'll deal. We'll answer it later. Well, it's been a couple of weeks now. So, and that later hasn't come. So, you know, like, is he, I'm more like, is he really still around?

51:16 You know, it's like, if you can have a big, if your local sports team has a big free agent signing and they have a press conference, And that new signing is sitting at the table at the desk in front of the media. But the head coach and the GM and the star player sit there and they just talk about themselves. And they never go to the guy to explain why he joined the team, why he chose to sign with that team, what the star player and the coach don't talk about how he's going to fit in.

51:39 He just sort of sits there and then the press conference is over. That's what we got. Carmelo's a big free agent signing. We got nothing. And you can say, well, you know, if you take the point of view, oh, they're saving it till after war games and that's when they're going to really delve into it. I would disagree with that. I would say that is not a great approach to take. Arlay says, I don't think the idea of the characters to have great matches for now. They want him, Royce Keyes, to look like someone who's in a fight and different. I think the attack after is more important than the match. I mean, sure, according to their booking scheme, but you don't want a boring match that's sluggish and looks like it's just a time filler.

52:17 I mean, it felt like preseason, you know, and the real... The real thing happened afterwards.

52:24 Telling spot for me was they did a gimmick spot where he had Solo had worn down Keyes and Keyes was like, you know, days, you know, the Mortal Kombat, you know, finish me, finish him thing. And then he pointed back and did the shot, you know, not looking at me, did a shot, the shot, and then Keys dropped down like he had just been shot. And that was to set up the... It was cute. Your mileage may vary whether you like the spot or not. I thought it was neat. But the body reaction of Solo and the body reaction of Keys was they didn't really feel like they were into the spot. And then at that point, it felt like, man, this doesn't really feel like they're really into a fight anymore. which is what

53:19 added to my thinking that, hey, maybe Solo is going to spike Reigns, particularly how he was standing. Because then at that point, I was thinking, I was already thinking about when I said this, what Wade was asking, why would they have this fight if they, say that Solo had turned on Reigns at that point. Oh, why would they go through all that fight? You know, I was expecting that question from you. And I was thinking like, okay, look, I get it.

53:51 But maybe that explains a boring fight going half at each other.

53:54 Yeah.

53:55 You know, or that, you know, they're wrestlers and, you know, none of the moves they did was like deadly. They didn't hit each other with their finishers or anything. So, and they're wrestlers and they were taking, and that was just to, you know, I mean, you can, you can sell that, you know, you can sell that, you can, you can make that leap, but no, it was just, you know, it was what it was.

54:15 Good point. Darrell says Roman is a problem. He takes away from anyone who joins him back in the bloodline, like Solo has had happen to him, and he takes away from people feuding with him because Roman doesn't tell stories. So we'll bring him on in a bit and talk about that. Arlay says, the only thing I didn't understand is why they handcuffed Jimmy. It didn't really factor into anything.

54:31 I think it'll be a spot in war games, and they're just foreshadowing they have handcuffs. That's their thing. Darrell adds, nowadays when they have Roman in stories, they only book for moments instead of allowing stories to build up. Um, and Darrell says, uh, the backstage moment was my worst and told how adding people back to Roman and how it hurts them and how stripped down they become like Sola, who's looking like a weak person who lost all his style.

54:55 Yeah.

54:55 I mean, we're on the same page there. Um, as far as that goes, uh, JC Scooby wants to know what's the point of Jada Parker being with them if she's not attacking any women on raw? How do you, how do you feel about Jada and her role so far?

55:08 I mean, uh, either talk more or bring Naomi back or somebody for that team for, for, to, to mix things up or, you know, I mean, you know, right now, you know, she, she's, she's probably like psyching up, you know, working, working, working the crowd on the, on the outside to, you know, try to get them going and that's fine. But, you know, I'd like to know again, more of like what's going on, what is her relationship to, to, to this, you know, uh, to, to, um, storyline you know why is she siding with them what was you know just a little bit again I don't need all the answers you know but just a little bit to know where it's coming.

55:49 From or acknowledge the questions exist and we're not systematically you know instructing the announcers to not bring it up or the announcers are so unplugged that they're just kind of reacting what's in front of them and not even thinking what the fans are thinking yeah So innovation says, uh, fan awareness of tropes as a matter of frequency after two plus years, a moment surprise unveilings and in intrafaction interactions that tease a turn that turns out to be a red Herring. It gets formulaic. And we have a generation of writers and frankly wrestlers who grew up in the minor war era where there was all this, this variance, uh, straying from sound booking philosophy of the, what progress, what

56:26 makes pro wrestling work and what leads to yes, the peak fan experience. And it was about moments. Who's going to jump from one company to another? Who's going to unmask? Who's going to join this faction? DX, NWO. And then the era of semi-shoot stuff that happened coming out of, I guess, the Bret Hart screwjob and turning that into a storyline. There's a whole generation of people who think that's pro wrestling. And what would be really fresh and original is stripping away all that superfluous stuff on the edges, that sugar rush stuff booking of moments and get back to pulling people into a compelling story with granular characters who were, where you're invested in match outcomes. You get out consequences to what happens. You don't just do it

57:09 to do it. You do it and you own it. And it's, but, and you know, AW has the same problem. This isn't just a beating up on WWE. Um, AW has had their fair share of those too. I think they are trying to address them a little bit more, uh, these days.

57:22 Uh, Oh, good.

57:22 Yeah.

57:23 Think about how storytelling, uh, works, and I'll phrase it, put it in.

57:30 Wrestling, right?

57:31 You have what you do things, right? And it works. It becomes trope-ish, but then in comes the next generation and they just know, they're like, okay, well, we're just going to do the tropes because not understanding why you were doing them in the first place. You're just doing them because it's the way that was always done. Then you have a next generation that comes by and I'm like, oh, well, these tropes are silly. Let's remove these tropes. because they're just tropes because you never, you know, built them. But then like the whole house of cards comes down because, you know, why, why is this good? Why is, you know, why, why isn't the tag team partner always breaking up the pin?

58:08 That makes sense, right? Well, it's because back in the day you would get one of them because you'd get a warning. And if you do it a second time, you'd be disqualified, you know? So then, you know, again, it's like how, and that happens to all kinds of story because you're, you're basing on the stories on what previous writers did and then mistake tropes for like the way that things were instead of why they existed. And it just, and think about it generation after generation, generation, that foundation becomes, you know, more and more weaker. And then sometimes, and then you'll be like, Oh, why, why do we do this? You know, we should remove this, not knowing that it's like a load bearing wall in

58:44 some cases, in some cases.

58:47 Yeah, load-bearing well. That's good. Sadler3 goes, all they had to do was explain in a promo that Jada was close with 946 and NXT, and that Bryce and Neem are friends with Keyes from the Bay Area. That easy.

58:58 Yeah.

59:00 I'd like Keyes to have had a promo, going back to my press conference for the new the new free agent pickup or a trade or whatever. I'd like keys just go, you know, I mean, and I know they're, they're trying to keep him sort of not with cliches, but like just matter of fact, to the point sinister, but he could just, he can just go, ain't no one safe, especially now that I got, you know, whatever my new guy, whatever phrase he uses for Carmel, maybe as a nickname for him or something. my C-H, I don't know, you know, come up with something. Tell him C-H.

59:34 And it's like, you know, Hawk would always say, tell him animal on roadwork promos. And give Carmelo and have Carmelo have his statement. It doesn't have to be long. It can be four sentences. You know, just, I got sick of this, or I liked what I saw, or whatever. Just there should be something in his story, an origin story to linking up with them that he establishes. And we get a sense of the dynamics And I think people would like to see that Carmelo isn't just a silent henchman follower, a hanger on. I think people want to think he's right there with keys that, you know, it's like Seth became the architect of the shield. Like they, they said, Seth's the architect because he needed something. We

1:00:14 kind of knew what Roman was. He's, you know, whatever, you know, Roman had his identity. Dean Ambrose definitely had his, his more kind of natural. I got to listen to every, I'm hanging on every word he says. And Seth was just, ha ha ha, and they needed to come up with something for him. And so they kind of made him into something. They gave him a trait. There should be some thought put into that. What's Jada Parker doing for the group? And they haven't. Anyway, Crofton says, I'm willing to be patient with the 946. It feels like they're rolling out the characters right now. Hopefully they get better established in time. It's not my preferred approach, but I'm willing to wait a bit. Okay, Arlay says, wait as

1:00:46 a counterpoint. Wrestling in the late 80s, going into the Monday Night Wars was about was about moments. Few things happen on weekly shows, so the things that did were memorable. I think that's, I don't have time right now. I think it's entirely, with all due respect, I'm just entirely missing my point. First of all, before the Monday Awards, the early 90s was a crappy time in pro wrestling.

1:01:08 I mean, I am talking in a much broader sense about what pro wrestling structurally should be, and it should be about, we're here to find out, I mean, it all comes down to, we're here to find out who the best wrestler is, and we're filming chaos as best we can, but we do not know where the camera needs to be. We are not filming something before it happens because the script says this is about to happen.

1:01:29 So we're now going to film it. It had a more spontaneous feel. And then it felt like at the top, you had a promoter or an authority figure and you had announcers whose sole focus was we want fair fights. Now we know it's not going to happen, but they should be upset when it doesn't happen. And it should feel like there's a level of competence, not to the referees who have their backs turned and all that, Oh, you don't want to overdo it, but there should be a sense that at the very top, this leader is organizing this promotion to stage fights so we can find out who the best wrestler is. And when that's not the foundation of everything from which everything sprouts and instead it's as John Cena infamously said, I hope we entertained

1:02:10 you tonight. When now it becomes about the wrestlers trying to entertain the fans instead of the fans getting a window into this cool fight world that has logic and structure and is is presented in a believable, logical way in its own way, and where people are actually upset when there's a DQ finish, and they're upset when there's heel tactics. When you take that away, you only can do moments. The fact that there weren't as many moments, Arlay, in the 80s was not a flaw, and it wasn't because it was before people figured out more moments equal better.

1:02:38 It's because they didn't need them. They didn't need a hot shot in that way because fans were pulled into a world that was just better constructed and better executed.

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1:03:22 Anything you want to add to that, Javier, before we move on?

1:03:25 Well, and you could... Moments are fine if you're building up to them. And you're building up to them, you know, logically.

1:03:35 And if the moment isn't... You don't want the moment to be the end point. You want it... It's a means to something. Or the moment should be a payoff to a result of a match.

1:03:46 Yeah.

1:03:46 Yeah.

1:03:48 I just.

1:03:48 I don't want to think, like, well, it's... my whole point is wrestling shouldn't be about moments or it should be about consequences to matches or consequences to friendships, breaking up that again, circles back to what will this mean to title to championships and match outcomes. You still need that sports element at the core. Not we're here to, we're here for moments, Mick Foley, love him, but you know, WrestleMania moment kind of took us on a path to I just want a WrestleMania moment rather than I want to win a championship, no matter how big the crowd is.

1:04:19 But obviously, the bigger the crowd, the better. It feels like a more prestigious moment for it to happen. But it just became about I want my WrestleMania moment instead of I want to be a successful wrestler at my at my chosen craft.

1:04:31 Go back to what I was talking about with the blood on 1.0. and it was mentioned on today's show, the chair shot that Sammy hit Reigns with was a moment, but it was built into everything that was going on. It changed what the trajectory of the story was going for for everybody in that group. So that was, you know, and that's why, you know, the thing is that when you then take that moment and you say, I want to recreate this over here and just follow, you know, the, follow the steps without understanding the why that's when you have an issue. Then when that's when it comes across more like stunt booking and, you know, and some people love it, some people eat it up, you know, some people will, will, will, will, will lap it up, you know,

1:05:20 but it doesn't create the, you know, it doesn't create like the, the, the, the trust with the audience that they're going to see it through.

1:05:29 And, and yes, I've been talking on, Wade Keller Hotline for the past week or so also. By the way, if you're not a VIP member, I've done news updates five days a week for going on close to two weeks now. That features back. I am pushing back on widespread media reports that are not framed as accurately as my information has. I'm adding insight into different things, like why was Taz upset at the end of the main event on Dynamite last week, following the Saudi Arabia stuff and all the controversies there, little tidbits on other things, a little insight into what I'm hearing about Um, what's going on with Stephanie of a care, I'm giving exclusive insider information along with analysis that is kind of outside

1:06:08 what I do here on the post show. 15 to 20 minutes, sometimes 25 minutes. And, uh, if you kind of got, if you're not in the habit of listening to that, you're a VIP member, I encourage you to do so. And it's a good reason to go VIP. And I basically taken away your need to, uh, to, to read a bunch of sites. I am, I am your gatekeeper. to what's relevant and what's not and trying to keep you up to date every day in a chunk.

1:06:34 So you can make it your means of following wrestling. It's kind of like the locked on podcasts where they just do a daily update on your favorite sports team and all the leagues. That's really exploded. I'm bringing that back. So check it out. If you're not a VIP member, pwtorchvipinfo.com. I think you'll enjoy them. And, uh, and it's a good way to efficiently keep up on what's going on and have information you're not going to get anywhere else.

1:07:00 And also find out what's misinformation or being blown up as a Xerox of a Xerox of a Xerox, as they used to say, where by the time it gets published, it's so distorted from even what the original reporter wanted to be the point of the story. It's out there. Um, So I said all that in response to something, and I can't remember what it was, but I want to make sure that I let everyone know. Arlay, his post made me think he was sort of like going, that he was saying something like, well, the 80s weren't as good, and he wasn't. He's like, he actually is saying, I don't disagree with your point, Wade. I think there's two ways to read it. I read it one way, but he's actually saying the things were more memorable in the

1:07:41 pre-Monday Night War era because there were fewer big angles. And when you have the fundamentals structurally down of how to tell a pro wrestling story and when it's about competition and right and wrong, right and wrong way of proving you're a better wrestler. You know, we saw it with Grayson Waller on Halloween Havoc 2. You know, he cheated to win and Booker T and Vic Joseph said nothing.

1:08:04 And then Dan Housen goes out and goes, oh, you know, you found a way to win. It's like there was no decrying or condemning cheating to win. The whole point should be to find out who the better wrestler is. And when somebody cheats, you should not think, well, that settles it. You know, Grayson's better. Or it doesn't matter how he won. You know, you have to have that built into the structure. If you're going to cheat, If you're going to have heels cheat to win and it's against the rules, you should act like that's a problem and not just the way things are. And when you strip that away, you have to do hotshot angles and moments in order to get people to care because they're not going to care about the other stuff because you've

1:08:37 given up on it. All right. Let's bring Ian into the conversation. We have so much to get to, but I don't want to keep him on hold any longer. I definitely have things to say about the John Cena classic and more. Ian, welcome.

1:08:49 Good to see you.

1:08:49 Welcome.

1:08:50 Thank you.

1:08:50 What's going on?

1:08:52 Let's hear about the John Cena thing, Wade.

1:08:54 Come on.

1:08:56 I'm so sick of John. Was he always this annoying or am I just in a mood when it comes to.

1:08:59 Him these days?

1:09:00 Days?

1:09:00 First of all, what's that?

1:09:03 Maybe both. Yeah.

1:09:05 Yeah.

1:09:05 I would, that's probably accurate. First of all, if I, I, I, I, in my TV report at PW torture about this, I'm like, if I retire, if I'm a guy and I retire from my job, but I show up once a year for some company party, And I insist on being introduced as the greatest accountant of all time. And I insist on that. And I act like it's that I'm, I'm owed that every time I show up, F you, you know, like get over yourself. Like he should, he has the clout to insist, not be called that anymore. It doesn't help anybody except him to be called the greatest of all time. Can you see me heavier? My, my screen went out.

1:09:41 Okay.

1:09:41 Now it's back.

1:09:42 Yeah.

1:09:43 You're kind of skipping around a little bit, but yeah.

1:09:44 Okay.

1:09:45 So, If I'm John Cena, I'd be embarrassed that I retired and the spotlight's on other people. And I'm, oh, I'm the greatest of all time. I was like, insist you not be called that anymore. Because A, you're not on any measure. You know, I mean, longevity? Sure, longevity of having the fans reject your personality and boo you until you became this nostalgia figure. who the machine then got behind and they, you know, cheered you, which I'm still resent fans who boot him now cheering him. But I mean, his, his, his, his mannerisms, his, his, he's like, it's just, everything is so his, everything is so affected.

1:10:26 It's patronizing. And it, he's just become this weird like caricature of what used to be, seem sort of authentic, authentic about him in some way and edgy. And it's just, it just drives me nuts. And then he comes out and I got three things for you. And it's like, I'm going to tell you when, I'm going to tell you where, and I'm going to tell you who. And then we find out it's Cody. It doesn't tell us what it is.

1:10:47 What is it?

1:10:48 Did you change your mind because you had the most dumb idea ever before and you took a ton of heat for it? Are you retreating from that? Are you mad enough to admit that was really stupid and you revealed that for a top guy, you have one of the lowest IQs of anybody who is exposed to as much wisdom and opportunities to actually gain knowledge of what works and what doesn't?

1:11:05 No.

1:11:06 No.

1:11:07 And so we don't know what it is.

1:11:08 We don't know.

1:11:08 Is it all in one night? Is it stretch out? What does Cody have to gain? But there's a title belt with his face on it and his name on it. That was really annoying. Ian, do you want to say something or do you want to throw it to Javier?

1:11:22 I do agree with you, Wade. It just seems like, hey, you're going to enter a tournament. You're going to win a belt.

1:11:29 Yeah.

1:11:29 It reminds me of the Saudi belt that they're pushing. It looks disgusting. First off, I hate the design of the Saudi belt because they wear for one night and then it disappears for 365 days.

1:11:43 Another sugar rush, ephemeral cotton candy moment.

1:11:46 Yep, exactly.

1:11:48 So like my thing is if what they should do, if they're going to keep it in December, have it have whoever wins the belt, turn it in for a title.

1:11:58 Match or have it be that they get.

1:12:01 The number 30 spot for the rumble that takes place next month.

1:12:04 Have it mean something.

1:12:06 You're just throwing people into a tournament that leads to nothing. You're just going to say, Oh, I won the first ever John Cena championship bell. And Oh, I'm going to not have it for 364 days. So I come back to defend it in the next tournament or something.

1:12:21 Yeah. Oh, I mean, hopefully we get some, some of this.

1:12:24 Oh yeah. Yeah.

1:12:26 I mean, we've got a little bit of time. Javier, what'd you think?

1:12:29 Well, my impression is not even a tournament. I think they're just going to match up veterans with rookies and then whoever has the highest match wins the belt.

1:12:38 Highest match?

1:12:40 Sorry.

1:12:40 Or highest vote or whatever it is.

1:12:42 The highest vote, yeah. Yeah, the highest vote is just going to win the belt. So this is pretty much on the same level as the Andrew the Giant or that sort of thing.

1:12:52 There will be voting matches for club wwe members which got a groan from the audience i loved it i loved it and i mean because that's cena is just he's it's he's a merch whore and he always has been like that's the thing about him and i've talked about this if you're a vip member you've heard me talk about this on way killer hotlines and other shows john cena like this whole time, everything has been about merch.

1:13:17 Everything he does is about merchandise and everything else is some facade of marketing to get you to buy his merchandise. He is obsessed with his numbers. He's obsessed with it. And I mean, I got, I get it. Steve Austin came home from life on the road, selling tickets with the most game changing wrestling character and hottest run in the history of pro wrestling. And he would, you know, say hi to his wife and then go to a room somewhere and come up with his next t-shirt idea.

1:13:44 Cause he was making at that time, crazy unprecedented merch money. Half his revenue came from merch money, but his character didn't feel like it was a merch whore. And, and he was really smart, you know, in every other way as a character. And, and John Cena is now coming out and it's like, he's pitching club, club WWE. Cause that's how he talks to us now. Club WWE, like some 1980s, top 40 DJ. Like what the F is going on with him? Talk like a normal fricking human being to us. Stop talking down to us. Like we're third graders who are excited that you're going to read a book to us. I mean, how is anybody cheering this guy anymore? I'm sorry. Hey everybody, I've got three things, three big news for you.

1:14:26 Blockbuster.

1:14:27 And it's like a date in a city. What you Jesus, you're going to hand us Oreos as a treat afterwards for good behavior. My God, he's insufferable. He's awful. He's never been worse. And stop cheering him. Shame on you if you are. Have some dignity. Have some dignity. He doesn't like you. He just wants you to spend money on his merch.

1:14:53 You say that as I'm wearing a John Cena shirt.

1:14:57 Shame on you. And hopefully it's ironic. Look at Cody. John Cena talks to Cody as if he thinks Cody is waiting for validation from the almighty John Cena. They're not that many years apart in experience and age. But John Cena talks to him like all Cody does is he lives for validation from the almighty greatest of all time, John Cena, the last real champion. We've been in here that BS self-centered counterproductive line from him tonight. But, like, watch Cody. Cody's like, I don't want to make news, but I hope this ends soon. So I'm just going to look at Seeningham. Just enough so there's nothing you can read into my facial expression that I resent the hell out of this guy talking down to me like

1:15:43 I live for his freaking endorsement when I've worked in front of more big crowds, over 30,000 people, than John Cena did in five times the years that he was on top. Like, I'm sorry. John Cena's living in freaking La La Land. And John Cena... And Cody shouldn't have to put up with that. Now, I could... Cody might say something different on an interview, and I won't believe a word he says. I look at that facial expression, and I know enough to know he's sitting there just tolerating, tolerating this John Cena appearance, and he always has that demeanor. Anyway, Ian, in the John Cena t-shirt for our podcast listeners, what say you?

1:16:21 I'm sorry.

1:16:22 It was the Knoxville one.

1:16:23 I had to.

1:16:26 Um, Mike, it looks, it looks better than the Brooklyn one. He wore it at night. Cause that one looked horrible. Yeah. That whole gray one with the little nets logo with him doing the salute.

1:16:37 Yeah.

1:16:37 It looked bad. Yeah.

1:16:39 And what, what was that? What was on the front?

1:16:41 What was a little, it was like, it was like the Brooklyn nets, like silhouette, but it was him doing like the, you know, the normal, like salute thing.

1:16:49 It looked horrible.

1:16:50 But the, the t-shirt said, um, on the front, um, Let me get the exact wording here. Rise above hate. So it's like he's virtue signaling on his T-shirt. Buy my T-shirt, but I'm virtue signaling. Rise above hate is out there. It's like, well, are you going to make a political endorsement on the eve of the most pivotal, important midterms of all time so we can maybe, you know, no?

1:17:16 It's just a virtue signaling slogan, but I'm not actually going to take a stand on anything. Vince McMahon's still somebody I highly respect. you know, I mean, come on, just such a phony. Um, Mike Steph, Mike Steph says, I agree. A hundred percent. Wade Cena is nauseating. Um, um, Crofton says Darrell's in the waiting room to be the next caller changing his shirt right now. Um, uh, Mike Steph says, I've seen, seen, seen a him more in retirement than his last five active years. Um, let's see what else uh cody was oh uh derrick uh derrick mitchell says cody is conning in his head where the hell is randy orton when i need him um like cena has reached a point and i mean i have a little bit of intel on this cena's reached the

1:18:04 point where when he shows up everyone's like okay let's just get through this he's gonna have some really dumb ideas and we're gonna have to make him think they're good ideas that just need tweaking and by the end it'll be his idea and And, um, we've got to make sure that he realizes that we think he's a celebrity and we're just super excited to have him here.

1:18:23 But in reality, we just are holding our breath till he's gone so we can get back to business. Um, and, and that is, that's where he is right now.

1:18:31 Nobody, nobody.

1:18:32 Oh, I mean, there might be some naive, like third year wrestlers like, oh, I'm going to get, get wisdom from John Cena, but it's going to be some trite cliche that could read on his Twitter account 10 years ago. Um, so yeah, JC Scooby says right on Wade. Um, And Crofton says, I remember when Cena didn't do that. the last real champion and said nice things to cody i thought wait i'll be happy tonight i was wrong lol yeah because because cena cena says i went on new york radio and i said cody doesn't have what it takes to be qb1 but you know what you do And I think he thought Cody's chest was going to swell out with pride. I finally went over to John Cena and convinced him. And in fact, Cody didn't lose

1:19:11 any sleep over there. He didn't give up. And he didn't care. He didn't care what Cena had to say because people don't genuinely respect John Cena's opinion behind the scenes in WWE these days. They just genuinely don't. But he shows up and thinks everyone's just been wondering, what's he going to... Oh, I can't wait for Cena to show up so he can tell us what he thinks of me. Nobody's thinking that. iPhone users, if you're listening to us on the native podcast app on your iPhone, You can unlock our commercial-free versions of our free shows by searching PWTorch in Apple Podcasts. You'll see a charcoal gray logo that says PWTorch VIP on it. Click on that.

1:19:45 There's some free samples of VIP shows, and you can unlock the entire VIP lineup, which includes VIP exclusives plus commercial-free versions of the free shows by searching PWTorch in Apple Podcasts and clicking on the PWTorch VIP logo. and then activate your three-day free trial. And after that, you can become a VIP member using your Apple account. It's that easy. Enjoy a streamlined listening experience to our free shows and unlock all the VIP exclusives, including our post-pay-per-view roundtables, the Wade Keller news bulletins, everything with Rich and Wade, the fix that I host with Todd Martin, and a variety of other VIP exclusives. Just search PWTorch in your Apple Podcast app.

1:20:23 Ian, what else?

1:20:26 Ah.

1:20:27 So they're going to Disney world.

1:20:30 Where the heck are they going to wrestle in that place?

1:20:35 Um, wherever it's going to be like that, like Chicago street fight or whatever that they did from WrestleMania, where it was like gold dust and Roddy Piper going everywhere.

1:20:44 I don't know.

1:20:47 Mike Steph says rise above hating John Cena on my screen in 2026. Uh, JC Scooby says seen as phony baloney. Um, MaFace6712 goes, hey, I never thought about rising above hate until I saw Cena's t-shirt. Thanks, John, for the insight. Now maybe stand for something. Maybe take a stand. Maybe risk your income and your endorsements to actually take a stand for something that's right instead of just selling a slogan for X number of dollars while you're pitching people to join Club WWE so they can vote in your stupid low IQ tournament. Mark Paschetti says, to be fair, Cody looked genuinely pissed when Orin talked about Dusty. He has resting pissed face. When you're done with Cena talking down to you, you're going to be in a mood.

1:21:34 Derek Mitchell says, Cena is the neighborhood guy who comes over uninvited and folks can't wait until he leaves.

1:21:43 Yes.

1:21:44 And Mike says, why wouldn't the former WWE Undisputed Champion want a Cena championship belt? That's the other thing. This is beneath Cody. This is so beneath Cody. Why does he want this?

1:21:58 Maybe it's because he gets a free day at Disney so he can take his kids and his wife.

1:22:03 That might have been the only reason that Cody agreed to this.

1:22:09 I don't know.

1:22:10 Rude Duck says they're going to wrestle in the same place where they held the NBA bubble, the ESPN Sports Complex.

1:22:19 All right. All right.

1:22:22 What else?

1:22:24 You know, I, I didn't even think about that. Smackdown was being taped tonight.

1:22:29 So like that kind of spoils if, if punk even beats Grayson on Wednesday or, you.

1:22:36 Know, how are they, how are they going to go around that? I just thought of that for it.

1:22:42 Yeah.

1:22:42 Either, either.

1:22:43 I mean, back in the day they would have, um, Oh, they'd like when they would do multi-week tapings, but they're going to do a house, a title change at a house show or something like they would do with thing. They would create this. I want, I wish I could come up with a specific on the spot here, but they do this thing where the champion came out with a belt and tried to hit the baby face with it.

1:23:03 So the baby face would steal the belt and then taunt the heel by wearing it into the ring. So that by the time it appeared on TV, they'd edit out the part, the angle that led to it, but it'd just be the baby face in the ring with the title. But to the live fans, he just borrowed it to antagonize the heel. But it was actually the optics for TV after he won the title. Something along those lines would be done. So if they do something, they're not going to do that tonight on SmackDown. But I guess Punk can show up without the NXT title belt because they can brawl from the back to the ring.

1:23:32 You know, we won't have time.

1:23:33 That's fair.

1:23:33 There's ways around it.

1:23:35 So what did you guys think of Ethan Page winning tonight? I actually thought that was a pleasant surprise. I did not expect that.

1:23:43 I talked about it earlier today on the Wade Keller hotline. I did a whole thing on Ethan and, uh, chose that match to kind of elaborate on and my stance on, uh, on, uh, check. I, again, I wouldn't be sad if Chad Gable kept having good matches, but, um, he's not mega over and Ethan pages is kind of exactly what an IC champion should be. Um, and I think, um, I don't say he deserves it. Cause that's just, you know, it's a, it's a chant, but I think he's earned, through his work in NXT, a chance to be something.

1:24:15 And he's not going to be a top-of-the-card guy on the main roster. But he's good enough to be a guy you want to see on TV defending a secondary title as a heel.

1:24:26 It works.

1:24:26 He's Don Morocco. He's not going to be a world champion. He might, on a one-off, have a championship match someday. But, yeah, what do you think, Javier?

1:24:39 I want him as champion. The most interesting takeaway I took from the match is that it doesn't seem like they're jumping ship off of Gable. Because the commentary was all about Gable.

1:24:54 All of it.

1:24:55 And making excuses for the fact that he was going to lose. I don't think you get to telegraph that anymore if you're paying attention. They were hitting on that. And here, and hey, look, here's a way you can protect a wrestler from losing. Legit, you know? You know, hey, had he not decided to, you know, wrestle and take the week off so he could, you know, work on his shoulder and, you know, maybe even Page doesn't beat him.

1:25:24 And by the way, favorite moment of that match was Page wins and then the referee hands him the belt and he's like.

1:25:32 I won?

1:25:34 You know, that was, yeah.

1:25:36 Well, but, but, but it was like, it wasn't just a smile. It was like, he was surprised that, you know, wow, I actually got the pin because it was like, you know, he, he looked like he was tired because he had just got, he just got hit by the chaos theory.

1:25:50 Yeah. Yeah.

1:25:51 Oh, and he didn't even, and he didn't even kick out.

1:25:53 Yeah.

1:25:54 You know, cause that was the story that he couldn't kick out because Gable gave up on the pin because of the shoulder. And then he just, you know, adrenaline hit his finisher and pinned him. And then he's like, oh, wow. You know, and then that's when he comes to and like, wow, I was able to win. I, that was great. I thought that was a match where I'm, I'm, I'm watching.

1:26:12 I'm like, oh, it's going to get, I knew I had faith on these two, these two, but it started kind of like, you know, okay, it's a solid match. It's a solid match. But then after, you know, you got certain distance into it, it's, it, you just got into it. I was just super into it. And by the way, I completely forgot about the exposed turnbuckle. That's funny.

1:26:37 Because I wrote my report when Ethan yanked the turnbuckle off. I'm like, you know, in parentheses, sort of snarkily, oh, that's going to come into play, of course. But then I was like, the deeper the match got, I said, I bet Javier's forgotten about this. No, actually, I didn't think Javier. But I did say they did it early enough in the match that you had a chance to not be preoccupied with it. You could even think, oh, maybe it was an accident. It wasn't tied tightly. But, of course, it played into the finish. But it played into the finish in an intentional way where the heel remembered he did that. So, yeah, I didn't think you would forget Javier. I wasn't thinking about you, to be honest.

1:27:12 But I did think it's been long enough that people aren't really thinking about it anymore. That was smart. Crofton in the chat goes, I still do not get Ethan Page. He cut a promo during commercial. It was just generic. He looks like my creative wrestler in a video game. Gable should be on a highway to the sky. Ethan is not a super dynamic wrestler. WWE doesn't need, nor does AEW need every match to be, this is the greatest wrestler. He is a heel who gets the type of heat in a third from the top house show match or a fourth from the top PLE match or a title defense in the middle of a weekly TV show, he gets the type of heel heat that sets, that establishes what a heel is. And it's a heel who's

1:27:58 not quite as good as his opponent who cheats to win and then gloats as if he was good enough to win clean and denies he lost that way. And he has a punchable face and a personality that makes you root against him. That's a heel. It's not the only heel, but it's the kind of heel you want on your roster. He's not meant, he's not, he's not Ric Flair. You know, he's not, whatever Gino Hernandez. I mean, you can pick your kind of classic heel promos of the past, but it doesn't need to be like it. He's, he's, he's like, you know, on the NBA or NHL, there's players who have a role. There's the enforcer. There's the pop, the one who kills power plays. There's a specialist who has a slap shot that you want on the point

1:28:38 during a PowerPoint. Ethan, fills a slot that isn't redundant. Chad Gable is sort of an inferior version personality-wise of Ilya Dragunov or Brian Danielson. And so it's like he's got better rest. He's a better wrestler. You want to watch his matches. But in terms of getting emotions out of fans... Ethan fills a spot that's more valuable as long as you have other good wrestlers doing what Chad Gable does well. I mean, he's the only guy on your show. Yeah, you want him. If he's your token good match, it'll be sad to not have him on every week, but he can still wrestle in non-title matches.

1:29:13 So there's my take.

1:29:16 I mean, I'm going to kind of dam it with what I'm about to say, but he's like a better version of Miz for me.

1:29:22 Yep.

1:29:23 And Miz.

1:29:25 there's 50% of his career annoyed me, but 50% of his career, it's like, this is a good upper mid card heel, you know, and, or, or a novelty act at times too. And it was fine. It, you know, it's, it's, you don't just want like one of the issues with like, with a W sometimes it's like, well, you got Kyle Fletcher and you got to cash done. You've got, uh, Okada and you've got, uh, uh, Osprey and you've got a Megan. They're just, they all, if you just list what are their top traits that make fans like them, everyone lists the same four things. They're just all right.

1:29:59 They're all great right wings on a hockey team. They're all great power for it. You need a variety. And Ethan brings that as did Miz. Now you can argue, well, I would rather watch somebody other than Miz in that position.

1:30:12 Oh, fine.

1:30:13 But you don't compare Miz to the top main event wrestler who looks like a badass who's having five-star matches or so to speak or whatever. You want different roles for different people. By the way, Swell says Miz is way better than Ethan. In what way? Elaborate. As a character or in the ring?

1:30:30 Both?

1:30:31 I don't think he's way better at him than anything. I think they're just in the realm of each other. Crofton says, I agree, he has a punchable face. Crofton says, Gable doing this match seemed really dumb. He comes out and immediately winces during his entrance. Dumb baby face.

1:30:47 I wouldn't say that's dumb, but.

1:30:50 Yeah, yeah, I mean... He's playing on the term I use when you don't root for a dumb baby face who postures and celebrates before doing a move and then it backfires. Derek Mitchell says, I think those guys you named were exceptions, but not every AC champion is on the main event path like Don Morocco. Tito Santana, Greg Valentine, Kerry Von Eriker, the Mountie. Kerry could have been. To me, Greg Valentine's a good example of who Ethan Page is.

1:31:14 I mean, he's not as good as Greg Valentine was as a worker, but just kind of that I don't know. I mean, he's not a great comparison either. I mean, Ethan is Ethan, but I think in that blend of Morocco and Valentine, it makes sense. Ian, back to you.

1:31:29 You know, last thing, you guys kind of touched on it, but I don't know if there's a way they can explain why Cruz Montana is in the 9-4-6 and to have it make sense to me. Like, they could have put probably anyone in that slot, but when he unmasked, I was like, Why is he with them? Because I don't think he knows any of them except for maybe Jada Parker from NXT.

1:31:55 Well, was it Barrett or Tessidore said, well, he's from New York.

1:32:00 That's still not a good explanation.

1:32:01 That's like grasping at a straw explanation.

1:32:05 I mean, they could say they want a little East Coast culture to add to their West Coast culture. I don't know. There should be more. I vote for that. There should be.

1:32:16 They never explained why Carmelo's in it unless I totally missed it.

1:32:20 I don't think I did.

1:32:23 So, I mean, I honestly think they should have just threw LA night in there as the big giant surprise before crown jewel. Have it be like, well, I, you know, I can't be Roman, you know, one-on-one. So why not have my own family? And you know, that's then you lead that to war games.

1:32:41 Yeah.

1:32:42 He's probably selling too much merch for them to mess with it. So much is driven by merch these days.

1:32:47 He's a merch head now.

1:32:48 I think that would have been compelling and interesting, but it's also possible they would just... But my vote would be keep LA Knight Papa because he's just... He has organically been embraced by the fans. I think there's more you can do with him, even if he hit a ceiling with Roman. I think he also gained credibility with Roman for a lot of people, too. As many people think, oh, I want to be world champ, but he's not as good as Roman. I think there's just many people going, he hung with Roman more than I thought he could, and he looked like he belonged in promos and in the match. By the way, a little sidebar. I was thinking about this where I was like, oh, we hung with him in promos. If you like, if you enjoy

1:33:23 or are interested in my rant, I have a whole fresh one of multiple points on Booker T from Halloween Havoc on Saturday. Waiting for you on the Waykiller hotline. PWTorchVIPinfo.com Reviewed. PWTorchVIPinfo.com Go sign up. We'd love your support. And oh my god. Not even the whole show. Just in a couple of the matches.

1:33:49 Yeah.

1:33:49 He is the reason I have to watch NXT muted now.

1:33:53 Yeah. Yeah.

1:33:54 He's just, oh, I can't.

1:33:55 I mean, I was thinking about watching NXT this week. You reminded me of Booker T as a commentator. I'm rethinking it.

1:34:05 There was a pivotal moment in one of the matches that has been weeks in the making on NXT TV. And Vic Joseph drew attention to it. And there's this dead silence when the color commentator is supposed to chime in. And then Booker asked a question and Vic Joseph, I think would have just thrown off. I mean, I would love to have seen the look on Joseph's face when Booker didn't understand what happened and what his role was at that moment. And then he had to re-explain what he had just explained before that. Oh, and so I'm, I'm, I mean, I'm, yes, I'm teasing it because we don't talk about raw tonight, but, multiple things about Booker on my latest Wade Keller hotline. So go VIP every day.

1:34:48 Like I think I had nine hotline, nine hotlines, no 10, 10 Wade Keller hotlines last week, counting the, the post TV ones too. And I did an assy editor over the weekend too, including some insight on why I report some things and I don't report other things, but only hint at them. So anyway, plugs over, sorry. Buy my merch.

1:35:06 Buy my merch. Cause I want you to rise above hate. So support me because I rise above hate everybody. That's a reason to send money to me. Admit it, you love Nick Barbatti when he co-hosts with me on the Wade Keller Post Shows. Well, now you can listen to him every week on the Nicky's Club, a VIP exclusive podcast.

1:35:22 Here's Nick to tell you more.

1:35:24 Hey, wrestling fans. It's Nick Barbatti, and I'm back with the Nicky's Club, the place where the family of Nicky's comes together for big laughs and sharp takes on WWE. From WrestleMania rumors to surprise returns, I got you covered. The Nicky's Club, where the wrestling feels like the coolest club in town.

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1:36:00 All right.

1:36:02 Anything else?

1:36:04 I mean, we can end it on Randy.

1:36:06 I actually really did like the drawback to his Texas bull rope match with Dusty, which to be honest, I completely forgot that that.

1:36:15 Match even happened. I think so today. I was like, whoa, he's right. It did happen.

1:36:20 I think so today because it came out of nowhere. And like you would think that someone would, you know, you think that would be used already for how long this feud's been going? it kind of seems like, hey, wasn't Dusty your last match?

1:36:34 Oh, yeah!

1:36:34 It kind of felt like it came out of nowhere today.

1:36:36 But yeah.

1:36:38 But yeah, they're really selling me on the match, and I hope it's the end of the feud, because I think Cody or Randy said, winner of this is number one contender, and I hope it's just Randy, and Randy gets his belt, and they're over with it.

1:36:53 I said in my TV report at PW Torch, and I'll elaborate this more in the Weekender Hotline later, if you just read a script... wrestler a wrestler b and you didn't watch wb for like the last seven years but you knew pro wrestling but you didn't know it was sammy or roman and you just write a script of what they said they like roman khan i think would come across as like this this full of himself arrogant heel talking down to this accomplished sammy zane but sammy is masterful in that he pulls off speaking truth to this self-centered narcissist prick roman reigns who the fans are chanting otc for reflexively um And he comes up, he says all these truths and it's like, I just want respect. I think I should have earned respect. And

1:37:36 we're almost like, you wouldn't even have a job if it wasn't for me. It's like, if you read that, you'd be like, what a jerk.

1:37:40 I bet.

1:37:40 I bet if I turn the volume up on this, the fans are booing that, that wrestler are out of the building. Cause wrestler S is so nice. And he's just making a point. He just wants respect from this guy. Then this guy can't, won't give him any respect, even though. So I love that aspect of it in part, because it, it, Sammy's able to make it work so well. So I apply that also to Cody and Randy, because there's this sort of, I don't know if Randy just wants to keep his RKO merch money or he just doesn't like, or it's, this is sort of a little bump in the road to him being a baby face, but my God, that was an inspirational baby face promo. All these other people want to go to Hollywood and, and put their

1:38:18 face on a dumb belt. And I mean, he's like crying all these like superfluous, extra things where wrestling is just a portal to get somewhere else. And he's like, I'm a third generation wrestler. I don't, it runs in my veins and I just want to be a champion again.

1:38:31 I love this.

1:38:33 I love what I do. It's in my heart. It's in my soul. It encapsulates everything I stand for. Oh wait, that was John Cena's self-aggrandizing speech about signing up for Club WWE. Sorry. I got my, my inspirational messages mixed up. No, Orton is talking about himself in that way. And and he's like, I am. And I saw where he was going when he said, like, I love the. So, first of all, if Randy's supposed to be heel, learn how to be a freaking heel. OK, like poor Cody. It's just one like one feud after another. And he's against as he as he lamented a few weeks ago on TV.

1:39:10 I'm always against these heels who have a bond with the audience, meaning popular heels were more interested in selling merch than getting booed. Or they don't even understand what a heel is anymore, which I think is epidemic right now.

1:39:20 They're blurring the lines either too well or terribly with who's the heel and who's the baby face in this feud.

1:39:29 And it drives me nuts.

1:39:30 Because when Randy said, I've sweated here, I've bled here with guys like Triple H and John Cena and Dave Bautista.

1:39:39 And I'm like, yeah, he's right.

1:39:41 He could have gone to Hollywood, but he's been there for like 24 years now, almost 25.

1:39:49 He, when he said, Cody, I'm glad I get to talk to you about last man standing. Cause I know it means something to you. It's the match stipulation, but to me, and then instantly I'm like, I know where he's going and I love this, but how's he going to turn this into heel heat? That makes you want to see him get beat. And then I forgot. Randy never cuts a promo wanting you to root for him to lose. He just is Randy and let the chips fall where they may. And then he goes on and says exactly what I thought he'd say, which is I'm the last man standing for my generation. You know, you were a protege of me, Cody, but you weren't part of my class. That was Dave Bautista, Triple H, Brock Lesnar, John Cena, my peers. They're all retired. They're living their

1:40:29 best lives. But I have no aspirations to do what they're doing. I don't want an ice cream bar. I don't want my name on a bottle of alcohol. I was born to do this. I'm a third-generation superstar. This is what I was born to do. I broke my back. I found the best neurosurgeon so I could do this again. I have enough money to retire five times over. But I wanted my back fixed so I could go back to doing what I love, having three-star matches with a rest-old in the middle. And I want to do what I love.

1:40:54 You're on fire, man. You're on fire with this.

1:40:56 And I want to do what I love to do, which is perform in the ring as a professional freaking wrestler, because that is what I am. And fans, of course, cheered. And Cody's standing there going, God, John Cena wasn't bad enough. And Cody didn't say anything. What can you say?

1:41:10 He just stood there.

1:41:12 Yeah.

1:41:13 Like, what I want is Cody to clap his hands and then, you know, go, that's really nice, Randy, but you know the things you've done in your career that aren't professional wrestling? And then just start listening. You know, you handcuff Stephanie and cross lines.

1:41:29 You burn down poor Cody.

1:41:32 I mean, whatever. I mean, it's just like list all the horrible things he's done, but that's not it. Now, Randy, this week is the third generation. I love wrestling. I don't want to be anywhere else. Even if you offer me a leading role in a movie, which by the way, he's not getting those offers, which is why he says what he says, but so I don't know.

1:41:49 Or he, or Cody could easily say you negotiated with my old company to get more money here because of what I did over there.

1:41:58 Cause I think.

1:41:59 Randy did negotiate or he was in talks with them to, go over there.

1:42:03 Yeah. Yeah.

1:42:06 Um, I, and you said, uh, that you, um, liked, uh, the, the callback to the dusky match. And I did too. Like there's so much history there. I just wish, I wish they finessed and framed it into, I can't wait to see Cody kick Randy Orton's ass. And that's never been a part of Randy Orton, not on the bill, the WrestleMania, not on the bill, the center's main event match after summer slam. Um, they, they, you know, like Brandy, He interfered in a world title match, but that doesn't matter because it was a moment. It's like when Britt Baker came back as a heel and Renee's like, oh, that was wonderful. She just interfered in a world title match.

1:42:37 Isn't it great to have Britt back? It's like, no, she interfered in a world title match. You're the, you're the panelist. You should be angry at that. But the culture of the presentation across the board in this industry, it doesn't cross their minds to say that. Rude Dog says this is a peak weight experience. Mike Steph weight is on one tonight. Eric Moy says, I'm glad I was here for this. Crofton says, LOL, Wade. Mike Steff just has six smiley faces with tears, whatever that is called.

1:43:05 Wade, I haven't seen you like this since the Viking Experience name debuted on Raw back in 2019.

1:43:11 All right.

1:43:13 I mean, I kind of remember that.

1:43:16 Oh, you ranted for like 30 minutes.

1:43:17 I was driving.

1:43:18 I was like, man, Wade's still going. This is crazy.

1:43:21 I'm embarrassed in the sense that I think what I'm saying here is like a lot more important than the name of the Vikings. But point taken. Crofton says, did someone slip an espresso to Wade before this show? Let's see. Oh, there's another. I took it out of the screen. Rude Dog said, Was it Randy Orton and some of those crappy straight-to-video WWE movies like the Marine 2 or something? Yeah, that's what I thought too when Randy goes, I don't want to be an actor. I wish Cody would have said, oh, you don't want to be in movies? You know why?

1:43:52 Because no one's offering you movies because they all saw Marine 3. Like, give him something to fire back on. He just had to stand there and take it.

1:44:01 I will give a little bit of a doubt on this one. No, you can't because the match is on Saturday, right? Or Sunday or whatever it's.

1:44:08 Happening, right?

1:44:09 Saturday night, like 12 o'clock. So unless there's a retort on the one in the recording, you could save the retort for the next one if it's going to be the go-home final word that he's going to have. And then you could hit all the points that he said. He had time to think through everything you said. They've done that a few times, so maybe we'll get a retort on the SmackDown.

1:44:33 Yeah.

1:44:34 Yeah, Randy was in 12 rounds to Reloaded back in 2013.

1:44:40 So yeah, one of those straight to DVD WWE.

1:44:44 What I find hilarious is that you essentially have a face, a compromised face in Randy Orton trying to make a baby face compromised by doing something horrendous, like kicking somebody in the head, you know, punting somebody in the head. It's just a weird dynamic there.

1:45:04 It's messed up, and it is because in I mean, TKL's culture is, well, of course we're going to Saudi Arabia and putting everybody's lives at risk because we don't want to miss our profit at the end of the year. All our efforts in the border would be for not, you know, I ranted about that on the way Keller hotline earlier today to go VIP people support what I'm doing.

1:45:23 I can hear my other rants and all this other stuff. My God. Um, uh, let's see. Wade's on a rant. I don't want to be all about me. Sorry, but the chat's going Wade's rant reaches a new level when he says the phrase to find it down. Um, And Mike Steff says, seriously, though, how long is this industry going to last since it has evolved to this? They are so insulated from that mattering. They have so much money coming in because Saudi Arabia wants to buy the legitimacy that comes from the WWE Americana product, embracing them.

1:45:56 And they pay a premium for it. So, you know, WWE doesn't need to worry about... I mean, they want to sell tickets. They want to price them at the highest level they can and draw the most fans.

1:46:05 And they are.

1:46:05 And they do a lot right to... I've watched enough wrestling companies, including WWF, from, you know, the mid-80s on. I mean, there are some things WWE's doing extremely well to be this much a part of pop culture and have fans wanting to pay to see these stars. And, you know, Roman Reigns, for me giving him a hard time about his three facial expressions and, you know, being a narcissistic prick babyface who gets these, you know, whatever, I won't go on all my talk points. He's amazing.

1:46:34 And by the way, if you read my PLA reports or see me I'm talking about him. I think he is, you should study his PLE matches, his main event matches for masterful efficiency. I mean, I can really be hard on somebody about one thing, but be objective enough to, because I don't have an agenda. I have nothing against Roman on a personal level. I'm just evaluating the end result.

1:46:53 And in the ring, sometimes it's a little laborious and it stretches out too long. I mean, I add a little qualification, but the artistry of how much he gets out of what he does in the ring is admirable and it works. And I know it's a point of pride with him.

1:47:11 So anyway, I will say this way. I was watching and it's going to drive me nuts.

1:47:16 And it's 10 years ago, but survivor series from 2016, the difference of Roman reigns of his in ring from then to now is night and day.

1:47:28 Like it is insane.

1:47:30 Because back then, that's when they were shoving him down our throats every Monday. Main event, night after night after night, feuding with Kevin Owens and Jericho. And now, his mic work, even back then from now, is outrageously different.

1:47:47 Yeah, 100%.

1:47:48 Anyway, we're running long. We could talk a lot more. a lot more go ahead up here yeah.

1:47:57 Please well just to talk a little bit on the promo between him and sammy yep um the i liked that the retort because you had mentioned that sam is speaking you know you know speaking truth to roman uh but roman even though he he you know he is still from in the the he was healed then he's also not wrong in the stuff that he said you know because because.

1:48:20 It's kind of a prickish thing to say yeah with all his accomplishments since then yeah.

1:48:24 Yeah yeah but but like he's also not wrong which was what would also hit hard because you know he wanted because Sammy wanted Sammy was wanted to be a parasite you know clomping on to the champion at the time And then, you know, that's what that changed. So had it not been for Roman being at the top of his game, you know, Sammy Zane hitting him with the chair wouldn't have meant anything either. Yeah. You know, so that's, you know, and so he's saying, you know, I made you relevant. The only thing I, the only thing I, and I regret that, I kind of wish that Roman had said to make, to just like really nail the point home. Because he talks about like, you know, he says, look at you now you're making millions of

1:49:08 dollars that you money you never seen he should at that point said you're eating from the table i set for you that.

1:49:17 Would have been like well and that's good although i will say i think he had a killer substitute for that which is the only thing you deserve from the only thing he deserves from him is you're welcome well you followed up with that well yes absolutely but i'm saying he was in that realm hobby i mean yeah absolutely I don't in a way, I think Roman thinks he implied what you just said with the line. All you owe me, Sammy, is you're welcome. All right. That's all I owe you. You should say thank implication. You should say thank you for the millions. And all he should say to Sammy is you're welcome. I thought it was just a killer line. And that's the thing about Roman is he can sit there and let Sammy rant

1:50:01 and rave. but nobody remembers Brock match number three out of six. And, and everyone remembers me and John. I mean, I love that, you know, Sammy's.

1:50:08 The greatest WrestleMania main event of all time, you know?

1:50:11 Yes.

1:50:12 I mean, it's like, if you're, if you're in like, you know, eighth grade and it's, it's you know, you're, you have, you get assigned a debate topic and it's like, you know, why is experimenting on animals to make sure shampoo is safe? A good thing for animals versus, you know, an eighth grade arguing against experimenting on animals in order to whatever. It's like, I don't want to argue for, you know, torturing funny rabbits eyes with the new, with the new needless, new needless fragrance. We put in, in the latest conditioner by some corporation. You don't want to argue for that. Sammy had to argue for Johnny Knoxville being a bigger deal than Brock and Roman. Like that was his task. And he did it earnestly and with

1:50:48 enthusiasm and gusto and a red face. And, oh yes. And again, if you didn't know any better, you'd be like, yeah, apparently that was the batch of that, that defined that era. And you know, I don't know.

1:51:01 Anyway.

1:51:03 Um, when I found you, you were just Johnny Knoxville's little bitch doing jackass kinds of things, you know? Um, and then I did not expect Sammy to go. That was great. Like that's, that's like what Terry Taylor would tell me. I love the red. I'm so happy. I became the red rooster. No one killed your career. But when I go to grocery stores, people, you're the red rooster.

1:51:23 No one ever said you're Terry Taylor. Like that's not a win.

1:51:27 That's not the way you.

1:51:28 Think it is.

1:51:29 You could have been a great heel of your era, and you were bobbing your head with red spiked hair, and it's not a good thing. That's what people know you as. Stop defending that. But yeah, anyway.

1:51:43 All right, Ian.

1:51:44 No, that was it, gentlemen. Y'all have a good night, man.

1:51:47 Cool, thanks.

1:51:48 Appreciate it. That's what goes. I did remember the Knoxville match more. Yeah, I mean, of course. I mean, Sammy has a point. It's just, I don't know if you want to. where that is quite the badge of honor Sammy is, I guess would be my point. Anything else you want to say about the Roman Sammy dynamic and the buildup to, I'm glad they circled back to it at the end of the show. I mean, I'm glad that Sammy came in and kind of got that cheap shot in because Sammy knows how to be a heel.

1:52:14 You know what I mean? Like, unlike Randy, who doesn't turn it into, well, he's telling the truth, but I want to see him get his ass kicked by Cody. Sammy's like, well, he's telling some truth, but there's a little delusion that, And he's getting a little high in his own supply of success right now and losing sight of how important Roman was. He's got some good points. But, man, in the end, I want to see Roman just kick his ass. Like, Sammy knows that is the end goal.

1:52:36 Yeah.

1:52:36 Yeah.

1:52:37 All right. Let's bring Darrell into the conversation. Darrell, I want to get a super chat in from Derek Mitchell quick here so I don't forget. With NXT's move to Wednesday night due to the midterm elections and WWE stacking the deck against Dynamite with Cena Punk, with Cena plus Punk versus Waller, will there be an NXT post-show? We are not going to reward. There's always an NXT post-show, but I assume Kelly Wells will be hosting it or Nate Lindbergh. I'm not going to reward WWE's predatory behavior by not covering AW blood and guts. I can only watch one of the two shows. So I suspect I will stick with AW Dynamite. Who knows? Maybe you planted a seed and we'll reward WWE's predatory behavior. But thank

1:53:19 you for the super chat. Derrick. Darrell, you don't.

1:53:22 Want me to. I mean, if we get a second Cena rant.

1:53:27 Oh my God.

1:53:28 I'm sorry. I got to vote for NXT, man.

1:53:32 I can tolerate John Cena more in an NXT environment talking to a bunch of wide-eyed rookies who know no world other than WWE. But Cody's supposed to be there, and I think they're going to choose his opponent.

1:53:48 What?

1:53:50 Yeah.

1:53:51 I don't know.

1:53:51 NXT is kind of like homeschooled kids. Like they haven't really learned about the outside world. And so Cena can come in there and just say anything and they'll just buy it from the, so, um, but yeah, the Cody, I mean, I don't know. We'll see. I'll maybe I'll save it for the way color hotline on Thursday or Friday.

1:54:12 Go VIP. You know that last segment you're just listening to and the next one that you're waiting to listen to? Those can be one second apart with a VIP membership. You can unlock our commercial-free versions of our shows. PWTorch.com slash GoVIP tells you how to do it. That's PWTorch.com slash GoVIP. Options exist within the Apple Podcast app using your Apple account, through Patreon, which, by the way, you can sync up with Spotify, or just about any iOS or Android app with a full VIP membership. You can customize the feed for individual shows and clusters of shows and themes. Go to PWTorch.com slash GoVIP for full details on all the options to listen commercial-free and with upper-tier options,

1:54:53 unlock our VIP-exclusive podcasts that run throughout the week every week. All right, Terrell. Thanks for putting up with us.

1:55:00 What's up? Oh, no. I can't take another scene. A moment.

1:55:06 I can't take another. He coming here so clownish now. He coming here with his movie role, um, personality. Like, he filmed one of his comedies. Like, um, Peacemaker or something like that.

1:55:19 And I can't, um, no. Do AEW and, um, call it a day.

1:55:25 All right.

1:55:27 Call it a day. But it was good hearing what y'all had to talk about, though.

1:55:31 Um, I loved John Cena rant. I done heard so many of those from you, so. Hey, he proving everything right, what you say.

1:55:38 Well, thank you. I, I, I was going to say, I'm proven right a lot. But now I'm starting to sell. Now I'm being.

1:55:49 I appreciate John Cena.

1:55:50 I don't remember the.

1:55:51 Times that I was proven wrong. I just remember the times I was proven right. Anyway, go ahead.

1:55:57 I appreciate John Cena outside of the WWE and outside of typical media interviews.

1:56:06 I like him on that.

1:56:07 When he's doing interviews or doing things that he's wouldn't think that he would do, because that's when he come off more as a person, as a real individual, and not as an alien.

1:56:19 By the way, thank you, Darrell, so much for your compliment of my demeanor when I'm doing mainstream interviews. The thing about Cena is, I don't think he's ever not performing, but sometimes he is performing as a regular dude who's a cool down-to-earth guy in a podcast. But that's also a performance. That's the scary part, is people don't know who he... I think there are elements of what we saw tonight on Raw that is more who John Cena actually is today than when he decides, oh, that's, I gotta be the regular dude who, who, who, because the whole thing with Cena, I talked about this when I psychoanalyzed Cena, but he reads a room and he just is a chameleon. He adapts to it. You know, like, and sometimes absurdly, like, you know, everybody, I'm got the

1:57:03 John Cena classic and, But he reads the room and he reacts to it. So he goes to a podcast and he's with one host and you're supposed to be raunchy. He can do that. If you go to a host, you're supposed to be buttoned up in the perfect neighbor who every grandma would want as their neighbor, who would shovel their snow and rake their leaves. Then John Cena can play that role. Everything with him as a performance, no matter how much of it overlaps who he authentically is, everything is to fit the room because John Cena has become...

1:57:32 something other than a human being. He is a product. Like, Hulk Hogan told me once, he's like, Wade, I, my, you, in so many words, you judge me for lying in mainstream media interviews, but I'm my own PR guy. I am You know, I'm doing what Donald Trump does. You know, three people drowned in the reflecting pool. No, they didn't.

1:57:52 You're the president of the United States. You're making stuff up today. Nobody ever drowned in that thing. What are you talking about? That should be a headline. But he's like, but he markets it to the gullible people who don't actually know what a trusted source of actual accurate information is. He's an extreme version of the cartoon he's always been lately.

1:58:05 But same thing with Hogan. He was just like, I'm just marketing myself. I don't respect my audience. enough to ever tell him the truth because they're gullible enough the reporters aren't going to do follow-up they're going to print my quote it makes me seem like a big deal everyone's like oh hbo is going to hire is going to back my new promotion or he'd say um i'm going to come out of retirement i'm going to run for president he was always just marketing himself and and that's what santa does he just he's it's part of what makes them successful, but you know, we're here to call it for what it is. It's not authentic. Sometimes it's more pleasing and less annoying, but it's always, it's always him marketing the John Cena image. It's like Hulk

1:58:39 told me, I'm gonna just, I'm always just marketing the Hulk Hogan persona, the public persona in every, everything he does. I feel like I had real talks with him at times because it wasn't for, it wasn't on the record, but anything that's on the record with Cameron, it's, it's not, you're not, you're, you might be getting a, bigger version of what they are most like, but it is calculated in every way always. Yes.

1:59:04 Now, to talk about something that y'all were talking about earlier too, and what gets to grind my gears is the way that WWE now tries to get away with not telling stories, especially when it surrounds Roman Reigns. Like I said earlier in the chat, they killed this angle two weeks ago. When they had them run and Roman come in, he go one against four at first to win the other grumpy, slumpy guys get up and stand.

1:59:35 They do the standoff and then they beat down everybody and boom, send them packing. And then the next week when you expect them follow up, you get no follow up. You get no nothing. They don't have much.

1:59:49 You get no nothing.

1:59:50 I love it.

1:59:50 You're totally right.

1:59:54 And you had months of this to build up. You had months of this to tell stories. Last week could have been a story that you told on what Javier was saying. You could have got Jada Parker to cut a promo and aired it and just told some story talking about how they coming back and something like this and then give brief detail on why she chose to come up here and be here.

2:00:15 Now you're adding Cruz Montana to the group.

2:00:19 He.

2:00:20 takes away from Carmelo because he's interesting to a point. He gives you that street type of feel, and he's good on the mic with it.

2:00:31 He knows who he is as a person. That's what you wanted from Carmelo.

2:00:36 And that confidence feel that, oh, I'm hanging up jerseys in the wraps, this type of thing that he was.

2:00:42 Doing back in NXT, Carmelo. So they take away from each other.

2:00:46 Then you have already told no stories with these guys that follow up because you can't tell stories because you have no rebuttal because Roman is not here. So when you're trying to tell a story, and every time they bring Roman on TV, they're only trying to bring him in for moments. Pop here, pop this, do this, go through your poses, and it's no stories. So, and then he's already taken away from everybody else. Like, he take away from Solo. They in the back, they looking at Solo like little bro. Like, you little brother, you getting ready to warm up to go play your little league game.

2:01:23 you ain't going to the finals or nothing like that. If it was something that was serious, then also Solo got kidnapped and they ain't let him show no emotion about that. No emotion, no follow-up, no nothing about that. Because he has to play into it with Roman. Because when they have him around Roman, he has to play into Roman.

2:01:43 No, I mean, you mentioned that in the chat earlier. There is absolutely something to, you know, you have to have somebody advocating for you in the writer's room, in the booking. And if it's everything, when you're in the vicinity of Roman reigns, everything, for better or for worse, and it's often for the better, but everything goes through how to suspect Roman. Roman is the sun around which all the planets, you know, revolve. And so it can be good, but things can get lost along the way.

2:02:18 Like we want, there should be more, Jesse Pinkman's then stormtroopers to use a Breaking Bad Star Wars analogy there's too many just stormtroopers just personalityless bodies who are there to take bumps and what we want are like compelling side characters who like Jesse Pinkman and Breaking Bad where it's like Carmelo should be a fully fleshed out character he has it in him to be that so should Santana Javier say his name with proper enunciation and inflection Cruz Santana thank you I can't do that but Every time I have to say his name, I'm going to pause and you say. So, yes, give us more supporting side characters where it feels like a lot of thought has been put into them, even if it isn't serving

2:03:02 Roman Reigns. You know, just do it because it's good for the product to have that.

2:03:10 And it's Montana because I said Santana.

2:03:16 Derek Mitchell. Yeah, sorry. Yep, yep.

2:03:20 Good.

2:03:21 It was ambiguous enough, muddled enough for me to not know. I was just focused on the inflection more than the actual words. Derek Mitchell says, if you guys are waiting for 946 to give a detailed reason as to why each member is intertwined and why they joined us, that's wishful thinking. Don't hold your breath waiting for an explanation. Yes, but precedent does not mean we must accept. Hopelessness is not a reason to not object. And I am objecting to it.

2:03:49 Draw.

2:03:50 Because after this, because this is the first feud. After this, they got to think of long term. They're not going to feud with Roman for the next 15 years.

2:04:01 They got to go somewhere else.

2:04:02 How do you expect them to go somewhere else if we don't know nothing about them? With you, ain't no character. If you have nothing to lean off of and nothing... a base, a ground. It's like they putting these people on quicksand and then just putting stuff on top of them so they start sinking even further and faster once they're done and out of their storyline. Like, you have no base to build up off of. you said about everything in the, first of all, I don't even want to talk about the early 90s and all those cartoon characters and stuff like that. I remember coming on with you and Bruce and I said, that was the true Vince McMahon because that booking that you seen with those cartoon characters, Garbage Man and all this stuff, that's what

2:04:47 you start morphing into and what John Cena copied more out of and that's what John Cena portrays in today's time is that right there because that's who Vince truly is.

2:04:58 But, Like you said, in those.

2:05:00 Early 80s and late 80s and the glimpses that you've seen in there, all that stuff was built off a nice base. Even the early WrestleMania was built off a nice base. And it wasn't about, let's get to WrestleMania, and that's when the moment. They built the stories. They continue, and they happen to blow off in WrestleMania. Now we have no stories being built. We have no personalities being built.

2:05:26 And I think the better Roman that you get is when you have somebody who's challenging him and making him be something else. Today, Sammy Ward being a heel, but with him being that heel and stuff like that, that's where you got the best of Roman. When you have stuff like that, when you have a Penta coming up and the crowd is feeding into Penta and giving him that baby face. And Roman have to react to it.

2:05:52 And you get those Roman moments right there. When you get what you get tonight with him at the end of the show and in that backstage scene, you get in the Roman who's, he feel like, I'm just going through the steps because this is what they want me to do right now.

2:06:06 They really don't have nothing for me. It's not the Roman that.

2:06:09 We seen when the bloodline was coming up and you was watching for the little, the little moments that he had, the little glimpses over to the left, and he was going to say something thinking somebody was scared and people was waiting on just.

2:06:23 A finger move of.

2:06:25 His because you were looking at the reaction of what Jay was going to say.

2:06:28 And that's why I use the term it's fool's gold when he gets the OTC chance. I mean, it is a legacy communal reaction to seeing him, but it's not as earned as it was when the whole, just the brilliant early chapters of the bloodline played out. And all the things that you're talking about, Darrell, that made it great, there's less of that going on. And it is that fourth or fifth album of a band he loved. And it's like, yeah, I still like it.

2:06:56 I bought it. It's good.

2:06:57 But it's not landing the same way. And I think you're expressing some of that. Yeah, anyway. Anything you want to add to that, Javier? Just about Roman?

2:07:08 Well, overall, the whole story stuff, I think they think that they are telling stories. But what they're really doing is putting, like we've been talking about, a series of moments. So I'm picturing kind of like a coloring book where you draw the line from 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 to 5 to 6 to 7. They're only presenting you with the numbers and the dots and not the actual line. And they're expecting you to fill the line yourself. But when you have so many of these dots, you just have dots on the screen. And you don't know what it's supposed to look like. Unless you follow the lines themselves. Because there are some people who say, oh, you know, because I see online, some people are like, oh, this is great because this is playing back to this.

2:07:50 But you're doing the homework. You know, you're the one who's doing, you're the one who's making those links. You don't have, I'm not saying you have to give us all the links. That's another problem that modern day writing has where they basically have to handhold you.

2:08:02 It's all expository.

2:08:04 Yeah, because you're on... And producers have literally said this to writers where you need to have this expository because we expect people to be on their phone. And so... Netflix isn't wrong, but it's still....

2:08:18 Awful.

2:08:19 Yeah. Yeah.

2:08:19 But you shouldn't be writing for that. You shouldn't be rewarding that.

2:08:22 Yeah, exactly. Don't enable bad behavior.

2:08:24 Exactly. So, so that's kind of, so they're, they're presenting you with this, this map of dots and then like, that's it. That's all you got. You know, there is a middle ground there. You know, you don't have to explain anything. Like we were talking about the, the, the stuff, you know, I don't mean, I don't, I don't need Jada's to come out and say, Oh, you know, this is my entire life story. One promo tomorrow. But give us a hint of something that maybe we're going to get something. Because I'm hoping, like you said, Darrell, I'm hoping that after we get past the gang part of it, leading to war games, we do get more of them and more of when they start going to the next thing that they got to do. But you need to

2:09:07 give us that promise. You need to make it, you know, tell us that there is something there first.

2:09:13 What I'm thinking is like when an artist draws a building and there's brick on the building, many artists draw a few bricks. They sketch in a few bricks and they suggest the bricks. So, you know, it's a brick building, but it would weigh down the art to literally draw every single brick. Same with like clouds in the sky or grass in a field like we can fill in the blanks. We want to tell us like tell us what. Yeah, this is a brick building, but we don't need you to draw every single brick, but it's a brick. So with with Santana, with Cruz Montana, like tell us there is a story here. And here's a snippet of evidence that there is. You don't get it all. That'll unveil itself over time. But indicate to us there is. We've

2:10:03 thought about it. We're not giving it to you all now. But it's not like we're ignoring it. It's not like we haven't given it thought. We know it's important. And here's a little window into what it is. And you'll learn more as time goes on. But they haven't even done that.

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2:11:20 See you in the paradise.

2:11:24 Yep, you're right, you're right. Plus, I say it like this.

2:11:28 Right now, I understand they could give us the story afterwards, but that could be too late because right now, this is where you have the most eyes, visual people looking at that group. So you can get that story out better and clearer so people can have interest in it. And also, you don't use your announcers correctly to get the story.

2:11:51 Out and to help navigate people and stuff. Just look at it like this.

2:11:56 A big competitor to Raw back in the day was Monday Night Football. The NFL just used a WWE story play last Thursday with a receiver coming in, getting hit in the chest, going out in the ambulance. They followed him to the ambulance, came back, came back in. The announcer's talking about it. Even dropped and said, oh, this is WWE-like right here. Came out the ambulance with the smoke.

2:12:22 They even had smoke coming out the ambulance. And he came up out of, came back in, killed the rest of the game, played amazing.

2:12:30 I know the way.

2:12:31 We're talking about a rival, and you won't talk about them that much, you know, because they're a rival team. That's why I ain't mention their name. But out of respect for you. And, but they told the story, got it over, got it over. With the announcers and everything else, didn't have to point people to anything.

2:12:50 They just dropped the single.

2:12:52 Oh, it's a WWE-like story. And told it and kept it going throughout the rest of the cast and got people to start going back and looking at old ambulance moments that was coming in from the WWE and did it way better than the WWE. And they had more time to even tell these and set up these stories. And that's from a competitor who they used to compete with.

2:13:16 Very good. Javier, anything you want to add to that?

2:13:19 No, I actually know what he's talking about. I know the team, but I will also not disrespect Wade by mentioning their, you know. You feel like some.

2:13:27 Cheese, though.

2:13:28 All right.

2:13:32 Daryl, anything else for us? I know we're at the two-hour mark. I don't want to keep Javier up here.

2:13:36 I got you.

2:13:37 And another thing, which was, I see they're setting up the latest on war games. when they had Bailey come up and say something to Jade, that was interesting of itself and everything like that. So I'm interested in seeing where does that go and how do they continue that. I understand now that's a thrown-together type of thing that they're doing right there, but that's something. I guess they gave it a couple of minutes, so we've got to see where that goes.

2:14:07 By the way, this is a good example. I like when there's an interview going on and there's a ruckus in the background. You can't overdo it. It'd be tropey. And they're kind of boring on that. But I like when there's an interview and there's a ruckus and the camera happens to be filming this interview that, of course, is part of the format sheet. We're going to have this interviewer, you know, interview these wrestlers. And then, oh, there's chaos. We hear noises. Let's direct the cameras in a way to go chase it down and film it.

2:14:30 I like that. They went to the trouble to do it because it feels organic and unspontaneous and unplanned. And that's a higher... level of the art from a pro wrestling than if they had instead, for absolutely no reason, just cut backstage to Bayley texting someone on her phone. Why are they showing Bayley texting her phone? Because in the script, she's about to be attacked by Jane and company.

2:14:52 And then she gets attacked. That would take you out of it because it would feel like, oh, I'm watching a planned, scripted segment. And the idea of a good wrestling, a good presentation of wrestling is erase as much of that as you can so it feels organic and spontaneous.

2:15:06 And so.

2:15:07 I like the way it was done relative to other ways that they do a lot of other things, and I like when they put that into that.

2:15:16 Yep, me too.

2:15:18 I like that as well. And the last thing I will say and I will bring up is this. I appreciate the two best stories that they told all night and to me got the best reactions were to continue telling and growing of the vision as a whole with that three-man match, because you're starting to see the rivalry grow between Braun, Javon, and Penta. You're starting to see that, and with that rivalry growing, it's like Braun Breaker is pulling the rest of the division into... where he's going and where they want them to go. And we're starting to see where the vision should have been if they didn't have all those injuries. And you're waiting on something to happen where they get the advantage and they can

2:16:03 move on and keep reigning terror. And also with Ethan Page winning the IC title, he's the perfect person to win the IC title. You already have a story with him. He got some boos and stuff from that crowd the crowd really was upset when he did the um the buckle thing and hit um and hit chad with that and stuff like that and that got a reaction as well that the crowd didn't like hopefully you can build off of that and you should be thinking now who would be the next big baby face in the mid car who could potentially go up that we can build up to maybe chase chase him and maybe take that title off of him, which I think is a Dragon League who they kept apart from him and trying to add him and get a little rub off of Penta

2:16:55 and Javon. So we're seeing better stories in the mid-card where they got the best reactions tonight.

2:17:02 Yeah, yeah. Javier, does anyone come to mind you're looking forward to Ethan facing currently?

2:17:08 I think ultimately it's Javon Evans.

2:17:11 Yeah. Yeah.

2:17:14 That's going to be further down the road.

2:17:15 Yeah. And, uh, I'm good with Penta being back in the mix. Um, they can pull people from the other, uh, the other brand, do some call-ups too. I mean, I, Cruz Montana would be a good baby face opponent for an Ethan page. We're losing something in having him just be a storm trooper in a faction. Um, even if it sort of fits, um, cause he's the type of baby face and maybe they'll get there. Maybe it's, he won't be long for the nine four six, but, um, I imagine him in a baby face role opposite of Ethan and man, I think that would be magic on the microphone.

2:17:49 And in the ring. Yes.

2:17:53 Yeah.

2:17:53 All right, cool. Any closing words, Raul?

2:17:57 Okay show. Decent show.

2:17:59 Again, Salmon was my MVP. Another week without Oba. Another week without L.A.

2:18:04 Knight.

2:18:05 No follow-up with him and stuff like that. I guess we've got to see after Crown Jewel and see what they come with after that.

2:18:12 Yeah, cool. Last week I talked on the Way Keller Hotline about why Oba's not on TV. So everyone can listen to Keller Hotline and get insight into that. Darrell, thank you so much. Always good hearing from you. Javier, any other stray notes that you would like to comment on here? We had the women, the six-way women, or the three-on-three women's match, Chelsea, Tiffany, and EO.

2:18:36 Well, I mean, not so much on that one, but I am really aggravated with the Tiffany Stratton Money in the Bank thing.

2:18:45 Yeah.

2:18:46 Because the cash-ins have been, like, really dumb. You know, with the... On character.

2:18:53 Consistent with her character.

2:18:55 We're used to the slow cash-in, you know? But, I mean, some of those, these have been beyond the pale. And, like, isn't it obvious that she's going to turn on Chelsea and catch it on her because no one's brought that possibility up. I mean, come on, man. You know, at least the heel commentator, at least, you know, Corey should say, hey, there's another champion, you know, because by not talking about the obvious thing and like, you know, Corey can mention it and he goes, oh, no, they're best friends. At least that by just not even trying to let it enter the conversation. You are so obviously setting up. Oh, look, it's a Thor. You know, come on, man. You know, I, I, I dislike the, the, what they're doing. Cause it's, it's

2:19:44 so obvious. And like, I feel like you're wasting my time.

2:19:48 Yeah.

2:19:49 Yeah. Well, well, but a seven 11 says, wouldn't it be cool if they did a men's war game match and then a traditional five on five survivor series match with the women. Um, Because as Derek says, I'm not a fan of the women having a war games match just for the sake of it happening annually. Very much like Blood and Guts having a women's match for the sake of having a women's Blood and Guts match. Swell says, Jade versus Bayley doesn't excite me much. Sadler says, if Santana talks, I wonder if he'll eventually overshadow Royce Keyes as a 9-4-6 leader. He's the best talker in that faction.

2:20:19 Agreed.

2:20:20 We'll see if he gets a chance to build a chemistry and a rapport that works, that doesn't undercut Keyes. Keyes is good in what he's done, Javier, but there's something about him being the secondary talker, even if he's the primary, you know, not the enforcer for others. He should be kind of the, he should be a co-lead heel in that group in a shield-like way where it's a group of equals, a faction or a gang of equals.

2:20:49 But Santana should not, like, he's too talented and polished to, especially with the work he's done in NXT for him and TNA, for him to be just another side player, you know?

2:21:02 So.

2:21:04 And I do want to say, because we've kind of been harsh with the whole thing. I'm actually enjoying the storyline because I do like the idea because they actually feel, I can mention a few times, they feel like a threat. They feel like a threat to Roman Reigns. I think Roman Reigns, here's a spoiler. I think Roman Reigns should, for my primer, I think Roman should lose to Sami through TNA. shenanigans but he should lose he should lose to sammy to bring him at the lowest point to set up you know a rebound at war games so um but yeah i i'm really i'm enjoying what they're doing with the thing i think there's a lot of potential for this group just like i thought for the vision you know and i i hope that they actually

2:21:43 delve into the characters they have look what you did with the judgment day people thought that was doa when edge first created them and then look look how how you know they're not top of the card, but they're still, you know, they give you a lot of good entertaining TV and a lot of like, you know, you could do that stuff, you know, just have segments in the back of them talking with each other, feeling each other out, you know, and so you could get an idea of what their relationship within the group is. But, you know, until, you know, hopefully, fingers crossed, after war games, we'll get some of that.

2:22:16 All right.

2:22:16 Very good.

2:22:16 Javier, thanks so much.

2:22:18 Thanks.

2:22:18 Great having you on. Everyone go VIP, pwtorch.com slash go VIP and get details or pwtorch VIP info. They both work. And I get details on signing up, get the way killer hotline with daily for the most part news updates, ask the editor and TV reports. Like I said, I think I did 10 way killer hotlines over a 70 period last week. And, and I've been enjoying doing the, the news digests with insight and inside information and, and many rants even in the mix. So good time to go VIP with everything coming up. PWTorchVIPinfo.com. Check out Javier's crown jewel preview article with his predictions coming up later this week over at PWTorch.com. Thanks to our chat and appreciate everybody for your support. Please like the show if

2:23:05 you're watching us on YouTube and give us a five-star rating in Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you are listening. And as the chat is saying, please, everybody, go vote. Crofton's from Canada says, go vote for someone who loves Canada and doesn't want to make it the 51st state. Derek says, thanks, Wade and Javier. Have a great evening.

2:23:22 Go vote, everyone. See you on Wednesday for AW's post show, as Wade is not rewarding WWE for their predatory behavior. Who knows, right?

2:23:31 All right.

2:23:32 Thanks, everybody. We'll talk to you next time. Your time is valuable. Go VIP and listen to our shows commercial free. A nice streamlined listening experience. pwtorch.com slash go VIP for full details on a commercial free listening experience. And with a full VIP membership, you can create custom feeds for individual shows or groups of shows by theme and also unlock nearly four decades of archives and access our ad free website with VIP exclusive content. pwtorch.com slash govip. Your time is valuable, and that's one of the reasons we offer VIP membership, pwtorch.com slash govip. You can participate in the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast by emailing your question or topic to wadekellerpodcast at gmail.com. You can also participate

2:24:51 in the Wade Keller Post Shows by emailing wadekellerpostshow at gmail.com during or right after Raw, Dynamite, or SmackDown. Let your voice, let your opinions be heard on our shows via email, wadekellerpodcast at gmail.com for the flagship and wadekellerpostshow at gmail.com for our post shows. It's next-level coverage that you come to expect from the PW Torch brand. No AI, no rookie perspectives, no unfounded rumors, no clickbait, no deceptive headlines, just high-quality writing, breaking news, and fascinating flashbacks every day at pwtorch.com. Pull yourself away from the vacuous social media experience that I know many of you regret once you get lost in it for minutes, if not hours at a time, and settle in for high-quality PW Torch-branded wrestling coverage.

2:25:37 Admit it, you love Nick Barbatti when he co-hosts with me on the Wade Keller Post Shows. Well, now you can listen to him every week on the Nicky's Club, a VIP exclusive podcast. Here's Nick to tell you more.

2:25:47 Hey, wrestling fans. It's Nick Barbatti, and I'm back with the Nicky's Club, the place where the family of Nicky's comes together for big laughs and sharp takes on WWE. From WrestleMania rumors to surprise returns, I got you covered. The Nicky's Club, where the wrestling feels like the coolest club in town.

2:26:00 Nick Barbatti wants to be part of your pro wrestling life every week, so why not let him? GoVIP. PWTorch.com slash GoVIP for full details on signing up. We're compatible with Patreon, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and just about any other iOS or Android app out there. You can also stream directly from our ad-free VIP website. The Nicky's Club, waiting for you every week at PWTorch VIP. Did you know that you can enjoy commercial-free versions of all of your favorite Wade Keller podcasts and PWTorch Daily Casts? Just go to patreon.com, search PWTorch, and subscribe to a VIP membership tier.

2:26:36 You get a seven-day free trial, by the way, to kick the tires a bit and see if you like the service. And then sync it with Spotify, and you can listen to commercial-free versions of our free shows like the Wade Keller Post Shows, the Wade Keller Podcast Flagship, our flashbacks, and also the PWTorch DataCast lineup. Again, all commercial-free, a nice streamlined listening experience. But with third-tier membership, you can also unlock all the VIP podcasts, including Everything with Rich and Wade, The Fix with Todd Martin that I host with Todd every week, the Wade Keller News Bulletin's post-pay-per-view roundtables, and an array of other VIP-exclusive podcasts with different hosts and different themes. Check out the lineup. Go

2:27:11 to Patreon and search PWTorch and subscribe and sync it up with Spotify or stay within the Patreon ecosystem. Either way works. Go to Patreon and start your seven day free trial. If you're listening to us on the Apple podcast app on Spotify or any other app that allows you to rate our podcast, please take a moment to give us a five star rating. It really helps us in the algorithm and helps them know that you recommend us to others. Just look for a place to rate the show on Spotify on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to our shows, and please click that five-star rating.

2:27:42 And of course, thank you so much for listening. A PWTorch VIP membership doesn't just give you ad-free access to these shows and a ton of other VIP-exclusive podcasts throughout the week, but you also gain access to our unmatched vast library of wrestling history. our contemporaneous week-to-week coverage through our Pro Wrestling Torch weekly newsletters dating back to the late 1980s, along with streaming and download access to hundreds of retro radio shows from the 1990s, including some of my interviews with wrestling's top newsmakers in the 90s. And also our podcast library dating back to the year 2003.

2:28:14 There's no larger, longer-spanning pro wrestling podcast library than that that comes with a PWTorch VIP membership now approaching 2020. 20 years of podcasting. Go VIP and dive into our post-pay-per-view roundtables, our coverage of some of your favorite eras of wrestling, top-name long-form interviews, and special format podcasts that we've done throughout the years. pwtorch.com slash govip. We have a streamlined sign-up form, and you can pay with PayPal or directly with your credit card or debit card in one or two minutes. From right now, you can be a VIP member and diving into our library, pwtorch.com slash govip.