Marina Abramović Institute im Dialog mit Joseph Beuys

0:00 Music. Kommen zu meinem Podcast die Leichtigkeit der Kunst. Mein Name ist Claudia Linzel und ich freue mich sehr euch hier begrüßen zu dürfen, was macht. Eine künstlerische Begegnung so besonders. Welche Spuren hinterlassen solche Momente in Werken, in Ideen, in der Geschichte, und was geschieht, wenn sich die Konzepte zweier prägender Persönlichkeiten wie, und Marina Abramovic begegnen, ergänzen oder gar herausfordern, in dieser Folge widmen wir uns einer besonderen künstlerischen Auseinandersetzung, Schloss Meuland, bekannt für eine der weltweit bedeutendsten Sammlungen von Joseph Beuys, seine Räume für eine neue Form des Dialogs. Gemeinsam mit dem Marina Abramovic Institute, Mai entsteht eine Residency die historische Kunst mit zeitgenössischer Performance,

1:13 dass Mai versteht sich als Plattform für Langzeitperformances, künstlerische Forschung und kollektive Prozesse, im Rahmen dieser Residency entwickeln internationale KünstlerInnen ortsspezifische Arbeiten, inspiriert von der Sammlung und dem Archiv Josef. Freue mich so sehr, heute gemeinsam mit Doktor Antje Britt-Mellmann, der Direktorin von Schloss Meuland, mehr über das Museum, über Josef Beuys, das Marina Abramovic Institute und über die hier stattfindende Residency zu erfahren.

1:47 Und ganz besonders freue ich mich auch, dass ich ganz spontan drei weitere Gäste unserem Gespräch angeschlossen haben, Sie bereichern diese Folge mit ihren künstlerischen Perspektiven auf das Mai und die Residency, komm lieber Serge Lebon, künstlerischer Leiter des Marina Abramowic Institut, Marias Herantz interdisziplinäre Performance-Künstlerin und Teilnehmerin der Residency sowie Christiana Kurt Neguesco, bildende Künstlerinnen mit Fokus auf sozialpolitische Themen und ebenfalls Teil der Residency, Liebe Antjes Hirsch Maria und Christiane, bevor wir tiefer eintauchen in Schlossgeschichte Beuser Bramovic und eure künstlerischen Recherchen interessiert mich eine ganz persönliche Frage.

2:38 Eure Beziehung. Liebe Antje, magst du beginnen? Ich weiß, dass du in Wilhelmshaven geboren wurdest. Ja, ich bin in Friesland aufgewachsen, Und bin auch zu einer Ballettschule gegangen und habe eine ganz tolle Ballettlehrerin gehabt, die da eben auch in der lokale Größe war, eine sehr charismatische Person, die hat sicher mein Bewusstsein geöffnet für, Kunst und Kultur und Kreativität, aber auch meine Eltern, die mich sehr viel mitgenommen haben auf Reisen, wir haben viele Kirchen besucht, wir hatten viele Antiquitäten und viele Bilder zu Hause, und Bücher auch, Und das hat mich alles geprägt und dann, glaube ich, war ich als so junger Mensch sehr buchaffin und ich habe ganz viel gelesen und darüber auch die Welt erschlossen, übers Lesen,

3:31 und andere Orte kennengelernt, wie Paris über die Bücher von und so von den Existenzialisten. Und irgendwann nach dem Ende der Schule bin ich dann nach England gegangen, bin nach London gegangen, einfach so und wollte da sein, weil ich das interessant fand, wie die Musik dort war. Die Kunst, die Literatur und habe dann irgendwie mit 20 in London gewohnt, habe da erstmal Englisch auch gelernt, also was ja gar nicht ist wie das Schulenglisch, sondern man muss ja auch dann jemanden aus Newcastle oder aus Schottland verstehen und das habe ich dann in England erstmal gemacht oder versucht, Und habe dann dort Fotografie studiert in Brighton und in London und habe noch so ein A-Level in englische Literatur gemacht in Brighton.

4:22 Und da kam ich dann irgendwie her eigentlich von der Fotografie und es war aber ein sehr theorielastiger Kurs in äh der Westminster University, das war eigentlich fünfzig Prozent, neuere Kunstgeschichte und Theorie und 50 Prozent praktische Fotografie, Und dann war ich so stark wieder auf der Literaturseite und der Theorieseite, dass ich gedacht habe, Mensch, also eigentlich müsste ich jetzt Kunstgeschichte weitermachen und nicht weitermachen als Fotografin.

4:53 Und habe dann in Düsseldorf weitere Kunstgeschichte studiert und da musste ich dann meine ganzen Mittelalterscheine und so noch nachmachen, weil mir das eben fehlte. Bin dann aber auch in Düsseldorf geblieben nach dem Master, wo ich über auch Luise Bulls Frühwerk eine Masterarbeit geschrieben hatte und habe dann über Luise Spätwerk weiter promoviert, am Beispiel ihrer Spinnen, Ja und dann bin ich ganz klassisch weitergegangen in die Museumslaufbahn. Dann habe ich ein wissenschaftliches Volontariat in der Kunsthalle Emden absolviert, wo ich ja vielleicht Glück im Unglück hatte, weil mein Chef, Der damalige künstlerische Direktor nach einem halben Jahr meines Volontariats in ein anderes Haus gewechselt ist,

5:38 und ich da allein war mit einer Kuratorin und wir so vier, 5 Ausstellungen im Jahr gemacht haben und ich darüber dann viele Sachen selber machen musste. Und habe dann eine Ausstellung kuratiert über Flucht und Migration in der zeitgenössischen Kunst und, war aber auch im grenzübergreifenden Kuratorinnenteam.

5:58 Mit dem Trendsmuseum in Assen und es war eine Ausstellung American Dream, amerikanischer Realismus von 1945 bis 2000siebzehn, Das war ein Traumprojekt. Also europäisches Projekt aber mit transatlantischem Thema und mit einer Recherchereise nach New York, wo wir bei vielen, Sammlern waren und Sammlerinnen, Und wo man dann auf irgendwie so seine kleinen Obsessionen entwickelt hat, ne, mit Edward Hopper zum Beispiel, sehr schwierig zu bekommen und dann, Dann wird da so was, auch freigesetzt, so ein Drang, der sich mir nicht so richtig erschließt. Edward Hoppers zu finden und sonst zu bekommen für so eine Ausstellung.

6:43 Es war jedenfalls prägend und wichtig und die ganze Zeit in der Kunsthalle Emden hat mich dann vorbereitet. Auf meine 1te Museumsleitung, die ich dann eben übernommen habe in in der Kunsthalle Sankt Annen in Lübeck und war dann dort vier Jahre, hat viel Raum wieder zum Gestalten und, auszuprobieren, wie man das machen kann, mit auch einer sammelnden Institution, und wie man das auch öffnen kann für breitere Publikumsschichten und Zielgruppen, Und bin dann hierher ans Museum Schloss Moilland 2022 gewechselt und habe hier nochmal ganz neue koratorische und museumsspezifische Komponenten kennengelernt, nämlich.

7:27 Arbeit mit einem Archiv, Also mit so einem umfassenden Archiv für den Josef-Beuß-Archiv und dazu passenden Sammlung, das ist ein wirklich ganz großes, besonderes Geschenk, weil es halt nicht in Anführungszeichen nur die Sammlung ist, sondern dieses Archiv hier auch, Briefe, Dokumente, Urkunden enthält und so spannend auch von Menschen einer, Für mich entfernten Zeiterzähle, Wenn man diese Briefe liest an Joseph Beuys, die ja vor allen Dingen hier sind, dann liest man ja auch zwischen den Zeilen und liest so viel über diese Beziehungen, die die Sorgen, die Hoffnungen einer Zeit.

8:10 Und das ist toll und deswegen ist auch künstlerische Forschung hier äh noch mal etwas, was ja auch ein extremer Prozess ist für eine Kunsthistorikerin, weil man, seine eigene kunsthistorische Aufgabe, nämlich die Arbeit mit Archiv und Sammlung eigentlich ein Stück weit teilt und teilweise abgibt, künstlerische Hände. Aber ist auch super produktiv, weil einfach völlig neue, Gesichtspunkte, Facetten rauskommen. Diese Aussagen zwischen den Zeilen, was hat dich daran besonders interessiert? Ja, das sind dann gar nicht so richtig kunsthistorische Sachen. Das ist dann, wenn also jemand, dem Künstler und seiner Familie einen schönen, Urlaub wünscht oder fragt, wie war jetzt diese Veranstaltung oder wie war's in Japan oder.

9:01 Dann gibt es eine Kuratorin und Fotografin, die auch viel für ihn organisiert hat, in Schottland zum Beispiel oder in Irland. Und die hat ihm dann immer Blumen mitgeschickt. Also anscheinend haben die beiden auch über Pflanzen und Blumen kommuniziert. Und es sind natürlich auch Worte da, aber sie hat dann in Brixon gewohnt damals. Caroline und ähm, Hat dann immer so je nachdem, wo die Natur grade war, den aktuellen Stand auch als Blumen mitgeschickt und das hat mich wahnsinnig berührt und das ist, jetzt kein ähm rationaler, kunsthistorischer Zugriff, wo ich sagen könnte oder hier habe ich ein methodisches Konzept oder eine Vorgehensweise und die lege ich hier an und nutze diese Meteorologie, um irgendwas herauszufinden. Das ist eine total.

9:57 Emotionale, andere Ebene der Erkenntnis über ein Kunsthistorischen Sachverhalt, der nämlich die Person, irgendwie im Geiste zum Leben erweckt und das ist so spannend, warum spielt Schloss Moyland für Joseph Boys eine so wichtige Rolle und warum ist da eine Verbindung? Ja, das liegt auch daran, dass Joseph Preuß aufgewachsen ist in dieser Region und auch unsere Stiftergründer von Seiten der Kunstsammlung gut kennengelernt hat. Die Brüder Hans und Franz Josef van der Gründen, waren Bauernsöhne, aus Kranenburg ganz nah an der niederländischen Grenze und die die sind irgendwie natürlich sehr ländlich groß geworden, aber trotzdem ein wenig mit Kunst und Berührung gekommen über so die lokalen, Kunstnetzwerke.

10:47 Und The Boys haben die beiden getroffen, als sie ungefähr. Also der Ältere war so 18 Jahre alt und dann haben sie ganz früh angefangen, ihn zu sammeln, diese Brüder von der Grinden und die hatten einen, großen Sammeldrang, Und haben eben auch außerhalb also von Joseph Beuys eure ganz viele andere künstlerische Positionen gesammelt, aber Joseph Beuys war im Zentrum der Sammlung, Die drei haben eng zusammengearbeitet. Boys hat sie beraten, sie haben Ausstellungen zusammen konzipiert und aufgebaut, auch in Schweden zum Beispiel. Und, Die Brüder van der gründen, eben irgendwann gesucht nach einer Möglichkeit ihre riesige umfassende Sammlung zu musealisieren und da kamen dann eben die anderen Stifter-Parteien ins Spiel,

11:39 Die Familie von Stehengracht, die das Schloss mit eingebracht hat in unsere Stiftung, und das Land Nordrhein-Westfalen, das diesen Umbau oder Wiederaufbau des Schlosses ermöglicht hat, finanziell, Und auch äh die institutionelle Förderung weitgehend leistet. Und deswegen ist es eben so ein wirklich Verbindung von Elementen gewesen.

12:03 Und, Da hatte Josef Beuys einfach eine ganz, ganz wichtige Rolle gespielt und er kam eben hier aus dieser Landschaft, aus diesem Umfeld, in dem wir uns hier bewegen und hatte diese Verbindung, zu den Brüdern von und so ist es irgendwie schon ganz folgerichtig. Dass das Schloss hier das Museum beherbergt, obwohl das natürlich auch total Kaffka S ist irgendwie. Nusskaffka.

12:29 Das Schloss ist so eine gute Lektüre auch, weil so ganz viele unterschiedliche Elemente zusammenkommen. Das Schloss, das mit der neogotischen Fassade ummantelt ist und, Sammlung und die zeitgenössische Kunst und dann die wunderschöne Natur drum herum mit den ganzen Enten und den, ganzen Nutrias und den alten Bäumen, Also es ist toll. Wie kam's dazu, dass das Archiv hier seinen Platz fand? Ja, also ich glaube, das kam auch aus Platzmangelgründen, dass also Josef Beuys diese.

13:02 Archivalien, also dass er schon alles gesammelt hat im großen Kartons oder Archivboxen und er hat das dann eben wieder zurück an den Niederrhein gebracht und den van der Gründen zu übergeben. Und dadurch ist das Joseph Beuys Archiv entstanden. Also das hat Josef Beuys sozusagen selber hierher gegeben und damit wurde dann alles aufgebaut.

13:24 Wir treffen uns ja hier im Rahmen der Residence Marina Abramovic Institut. Um mehr über das Mai zu erfahren, begrüße ich nun ganz herzlich Serge Laborn, künstlerischer Leiter des Mai- und Mitkurator der Residency. Liebe Hörerinnen um den Austausch mit unseren internationalen Gästen, so angenehm wie möglich zu gestalten, führen wir das Gespräch, Ab jetzt auf Englisch. Dear Sergeno welcome you here.

13:52 With you like to enthoduse yourself and share it about your path and to art and the Marina Bramovic Institut. Und much time to we have to, ja, hast du gern Member, auch das. Soon so afghaton so the museums where you're nee place what I felt different, and I used to like it and ähm it was musems and suse for me. Am Bonn in the North of Britannien bei Dose butter one of my grone mother what's living empires.

14:46 Bauch. So thinking but out there, oder, Da ist strenge, then do nothing and there sitting on the frowers. And I was thinking that where like Artist, und finde momentan das, And sound so also you inconcer but, I was going back to Europe for the Yard Fair of for the interesting exibition that I want to see.

15:34 In Was, ist okay to me four works, This year, we just been credite for you. And I give him three names plus, Und, Fax. Just to say I don't like a work, I don't like with your doing. Why like this, but why I ned that's accessoire? So, cent the fax it was a Juli, Ähm, Das war, an from this moment. I can said that my life as changing is at the way, because what I've in mind was to open again in Paris. But I new that it was not for me I want to do it, but I new that doesn't for a long germthing I want to try something I want to learn to get you other side of the table. Und your the side of the painting I don't know said that, Ein Scherbsen your lot for that because see you so easy for medit was like meeting a Monster,

17:23 and the wait this meeting was so so easy, so cool, so I think I've finished this meeting we'm thinking okay, I'm gonna do it. An dem, Die. And I did tree shows we far and it was like so the deal for me was I'm gonna be getter is for ten years. Und, oder? Gedicht. So was thinking about of thening another another space and broad but many difference personal reason us were one day my could me and set unon, you cannot doduct, that's you can and gonna spin your life like the reale State pur going from One space to when not our asle can und do that. Because been two thousand one we started to came, Ähm, Good for the Painter, for Fotographer, you have works, you know what the me you have mater your works. For deaders Artists very diffigured. And youring this,

18:49 ja Whey for performance out this to keep a ligasy and to organized regasse was to work with with other artist. Und we are here Anita Plus that in two thousand and and just to the Montard it was the day one I told their the last day of the more. I told there, Ich, and the so west du bist äh Institute and then we are today. If you ever saw out about becoming abperformance are just yourself? No, you know first I don't take ton the world Artist.

19:51 Mhm. I don't like later. Phillip some four and you have to say profession artist. So. Bei Tio hat sich auch nicht ganz nah. White to you think, people always try to label a thinks. Ja. They one label so the unerwithing. Mhm. But I think you can to about artist when there und musadieren we are life. Because I have look of problem to understand, one work and this work another work another work. What's isporting for me is the global thing? The French they have this thing with is good they said Die ist die Antiger Production of arzist.

20:40 Ich somebody offer, the Nazis for us, oh was a great or she was a great of this, she's a great hassister. He's was a great offist. But I have a look of problem to say to Maria oder Christiana, Hör guter Artist. It's can naturing for me. Let's not space for merry, ja and Christiana. Maria, hope you doing well? I'm daying really well, ähm very excited to be here. It's been really really good to have the seportunity to share with other artist also this is a think in theris so many artists. What I want to says that it's very a newsual to get performt Ortes.

21:32 Together in such a Weißbier if coming may be more event from Divisual Arts Department to beat together now days for sur long time cook together organizer together. Like to more the basic human thanks together and how throught, Und, With the other and truthy hourcers come clear to you even. I think that's very, very important.

22:02 Also, Ritualistik, Enter Change und different cultures different we have somen who is with us with turkischen, really speakers mich english, but it's so injust sain to watch im abserve as, Ich. Give us clarification and some times, the give was just noise and so when we are together all these things organically come to place, and I see a group of people that organice thanks, but we don't organized too much, we just all over us, I feel leave the other be and then slowly that person finds its assens in the group.

23:02 And it's very interesting having listen down a Stuttgart about that of help we have to talk about fining the real Essence an ourselves stay for the mocracy becoms, the body itself. So that's been really nice experience, so far we just inter second week. And I'm happy we have for week so wish we had more, we ready starting to make Ideas on squating the Plays and and how we would interior design like what would be our interior design look like inside of this Building. So, it seens like a little roots are so of likes standing to grow, And I think that's very important in my your pinion because it so of a group show or not we don't new yet but I cannot same or about that because I've noclue but's good about it is that we're finding out.

23:54 Ich. The we are actually connected with the same teams and they moves in the vige aus. So so it some is like we are trans Midters, Und. Wenn die First Fee, you want to become and artist. I was siare sold and I so the russian Balay not cracker. Der russian Balay was no is a spectical. I real lize leder of Music of many differn out from that we're coming together infact between dance their music, Visual World my Goodness Visual World of the Ballys with Just absolute birthday and that was they dear sins to beginning in fact ähm.

24:55 Painters drives anongraphies and so once so I remember I got hit very strongly by seeing something that I kurdent, Bars, but that moved me atramentesty. Ähm this imaginary world that you rabo to create an thematinery world. I saw that was preating credible and probably was More Simüller to the mager in you world is a child, that was actually living and having so it was almost like oh my language is this in the way so from quite early age I just was brought, with never started that was are too but I just was broad into this ability create and my father was very creative himself so he south ables me to go that pass also and how did your passe continue from I started it directing a lot My neighurhead Kids on doing Thinks around the nebrahit. It was very physical.

25:58 Everything I started to build inside of my rooms and then I was the start to dancing I moved from sweets to you goslavia, and eighty seven and I started with the rush in Valey. And well we had to study piano, we had to study everything there was like from the morning to the evening I started living balone and then about can a war started.

26:25 Iden leave I state I'd in the wonorly, Ich. London, I want ton from countie to country I left like in seventer countries. Die Christiana a very glad your here. With you like to Talas Abit? Ich, No. Kunstakademie. I also don't not like to call myself and Artist so I can of like. Also basically. I like inventing concepts and night like to but them into. Fistance.

27:35 Maria, that was a which, Es very interesting to, Go back to this practices and rituals that she was doing. But I didn't have so much direct contact with here. She was my great ground mother. So like can of no about what you was doing from up? Secondhand Experience. But they come from äh very much number orientid family. I'm myself to not no dem multiplication table.

28:18 So I guest my parents. Then really know what to do with me what I started painting and being artistic. I group moreless with TV and with whatever stories of which craft to that I could experience and. Drowing when I was eleven and one thing let to the other, now I'm doing performed divenstuations. I did the study and, Linken City in England, I did not pretty lerly like. I didn't stud the Art their, I stud it media production, Wir.

29:14 That's my main study for thography and after that that was a the gunstademy, So after realising direkt in no work in the BBC and I can not do that I, und, Wow. It was dooking at in the dicision or the Discopory that I was in away and artist was wann I was you eleven, because I couldn't that brush down any more. I didn't know how it happen, It just started at some point that didn't have many friends Es entscheidet very much fixation and repetition orientatant, TV I watch to movies for thousands of time with no Excelation.

30:13 Äh I like edition very much. But I think that discision is anacronical in the sense. What has performance art mean to you? I think I started to doing it before a new what it was? Den have so much knolly to a was not educated and to, Noving what performance art is and niting the first action or, Und Rumänien, Photograph for Friend of mind because I come from Photography invited me to, du in action for his nude for tography Workshop, Sorry, for it because, it was probably not what he expected but hees a coys al was like yeah to it's okay, doesn't matter.

31:15 Public for the, sind das Workshop and everybody would win a price at the end. And you do it more is for the camera which was very interesting for me to. So was taking a lot of pictures of myself, ad the time so, keine Performance oder so, And for some very terrify People that we're walking by on the beach with they dogs. It was very interesting.

31:47 So I think that's how I came to performance. I do the the performance back than with the performance Partner that ad the end of the performance started crying. I think I was intense, but ours feeling final good gone for more and everybody was very word for my Performance by don't talk anymore. Ähm. Sorry I think that's some how them, came to performance and you Maria? What was you are proception of performance art and the beginning? Äh singer thing. I told your ready have done dance and then have done acting american the year acting Shakespeare, And si was working with words which was the opposition of dance and I need to do that, If always with creating my on, that I wouldn't spissiffely say the were performance or I didn't one a give them any name, I didn't care what they were

32:52 interested me was the process and to work recertain people. That's serge in Energy I want to work with so. One point. I was doing the artists present with Marina, And I've always pend my life in der Serie and outside of the Serie, we gus I'm very obcess with spaces that's why be construct and construct but it womember very specific. Lear very clear moment a when I was thing one of a reperformances äh inpoint their rabelia into thousand inten I think thous. Standing at the door and I was, A the same time, I was starting tennecy Williams and so was doing this like reales I'm psychological realisem the American's colled and, Was so sad.

33:47 Realism as a not is but it that moment our standing naked their in the door and Ich. Eine One-Point-People or passing, very a lotd People stead of passing, because New Jersey-Farm out, that we were naked. The performance is guider member the hear nineteen centy four something imponted appellia to people standing that time with marin a new life standing at the door it was in Italien Gallery, really close Lied nake it in from of there Das, passingstruit some. Bei Wolderwear passings rüber have to make and unconscious a consciouse that witch direction they would turn they will eat a look it the the femal or the mail performer and so, once the post made an nertical that the were nakeds People arests People in the woma. We start a getting all can't a peopo into the momma and scusififly that one day someone past and

35:02 touch the privat apart of my partnem from to me and I felt so wonderbul and that moment. So, so open. A the same time I didn't break the Zone irson, but I did receed the sonder was happening around me and in that moment with very clear to meanters of the medium of difference that I was working was and the serie medium and the performance medium that the searher I will make everything possible to recreat that, eine Performance anything everything was happening.

35:45 Eine Enttäuscht that's to Mallong core to me so much more ähm to. Show behind the seen than just the seen, that is been recreated and so specifically those to different, Mediums bekäme in my Body in that way and I did struggle to smell everyone smell. Everyones kommend, two close to me, all over seven they were two close.

36:23 I didn't luck that because usually you know, I like space, I actually like space, gent a like naturally but all oliver seven it was very close and yet, I was there to be part of leting that happen and yet my one humanity in that moment dealing with is, and I new that hi manity was. So of like much more open in interested in experiencing art forming that way, that it you see is a difference between a performance artist and next with you say the performance Artist is and walted in their own process why the actor work smore for the orient? Äh if you work in mesiums a guard is a call invisitors, so more less, but in theorest this äh invisible War, you know, it's rain from af you that you'd never really like cross the boundry. All the contempory year,

37:21 haselt incrossing the bandering for many many years and nineteen twenties in fact. Very simple think the says like with when you renectur you work in the you work with fake blood why in Performance of you most devently were work with we all, more with realet, let's to say, if I can make this simple. Now does a mean there ever single performed just that Performance out has man many different spectrims to re work those thinks. But I do think that in Performance out the visitors write in front in my face and most importantly for me.

37:56 Is the the visite chooses how much they wants or she wants to stay. So I fin that so important I find at the most demokratic way of sharing a space. That it is the visag who all oliver siden this sites to remain or not remaine in you has the freedom to do so, Maybe the other pieces. What you my not have a Freedom to do soap but there is reason why what in the you're expected to go in yous it down.

38:27 Fremde Distance. As a TV most, eine touch is you but not as much and performance at you see the visitos eyes, you can smell the visitor. Sometimes because it's so close. Enterange what change your course, of you next move that you make with in your home piece. Can you descry energy that drives you to test your own bonderies? I do not like pain. I'm not ähm fan of it.

39:08 In a daily situation well hurt myself I will suffer and cry in beat my chest. Und Simulasituation in a Performance I would not even feel it. Not a roll, it is, sage, you not you normalself when you perform. Notschuling and Eford of Performance. Performance is not an effort. It's not, Und doing it by heart, Und.

40:11 Wir, to to to to go into that state of being or state of mind. I don't think you need to be. Wir, not living in your regular circonstance, you are, Ich, Ich, Ich denke representing as where to reality for performance. Äh the Messenger by the Storyteller. Witch is a very good for me. Singen for artist.

41:14 Is Pudding you already in the position where normals bull not, Ich. You know what I'm trying to say, thousand stick. Many many things and be in that automated form. There's something on week on toke. L Super important ist die Energie. I doing performance in the studio, we don't public, so it means the day don't need disinnergy, but is it performance I don't believe so I think they made for, Fotografie oder Videos oder Adomkuldem Performers.

42:15 Between or comedian on stage and we were to king do the day about Credibal. Und, Theresa incredible because their incredible Wir sind, dann. This acchanged with the public ist ähm betreuer of the Fame is the acchange e of shees giving everything to the work. But this everything is the energy does the public the audeonce is gonna receive. Some times and I have an versperrzed imagine on mind. You can be blind, Creator because you feel, You feel the public around you, and the space and äh you filth the attention you feel some them it's nozy some time it's not sometime I'm to king like to performance but that been to so many things and theater is so important for me.

43:32 That I am this tood that Theater is very important, that performance is more important because there is now senario. Nothing is a nothing is decided, that's so is a full Freedom, I don't know to said that in a not the world. Das Szenario rappen squite organically. In the moment and if really is like Und.

44:09 Artform, to the work, crease energy, picce a body is energy, in the way we enter the way be sat the way you stud a little wild. It's all figuring out, Where I'm a gonna go with my Body and where I'm gonna place myself and this happens. I see this a lot when I'm performing myself hew people choose themselves, how close, how far, sometimes say live, Viel, and it's there is action notiven neses serie to create because just is Eine Singles Presence and how it feel, wenn ihr first enterd schloss moyland? I wasn't a cussel, I was and swing, Also.

45:22 Glück. Glück. To be her. First Time we and turin to the was a like patterfide. It was a like, Ja was, Was very clearly, very preside. I was like a stoned. I couldn't moving to this incraber space. I think for me was very, very interesting because we came to to the Museum, I think for the first time after we have been insideence, Äh we are doing there promovic MetEd. So was a full day äh very, very intense revolutions. With dot the ability to, speak about they're more to let the mout, we came to the Museum ins wew what was happening, you was a performance by Ari, Benjamin Myers.

46:31 And it was activated for music and basic lear. In den Museum and you can you can go and äh sit hard the table with äh, And you with composi a peace live uh depending on the answers that you would get from the spirit. So for me that was the artermost. Of the end of the day because after preparing areselfs to go into the Museum we also walked to the Museum which was also very, Interesting to we walked for anowher for which is also. Winterthing? Ja. You know we we we we fin and the again inside wevent, In der Sutte ran so basic clean these of the building and here music together.

47:34 So, we when in to this up conscious of about. I was thinking at the moment, that it's kind of like this have consistbarted of the Museum also after noing after words that the Museum as it is now. It's not as you was, it was completely demonlist, he was Bomb and it is reconstruction of museum. But in the building there is a firer place that remained and I think, It's close towhere we were indigally, so arooking of like like together at we go to this like, Origino Park of the Music ähm listen to music from the spirits of the Music ähm and, I was ähm a very, very beautiful moment to kind of experience the first entry in the Museum. It just fair like I was like going back to brother gramm to be honest.

48:26 Wenn. Wurde es die Marina Abramovich Institut. Institution because I ama me seam Director I work with collecting institutions and the marina Bramovic Institute is a kind of breaking down the Museum walls. Und Hudson, Upstate New York, But this never happened and then the people for found ojet Marina and Serge as we hard, Ich, then made this äh kind of traveling Institution that's always going to different places to different me thems, difference, around the world and oways kind working with the communities there, and sometimes to in open calls, Casting Artists von there from Istanbul from äh Somware in Brasil äh Somewhere in Grease sorry in London where they were south thenters, so, Ich.

49:47 Ich also Longdiverational Performance Art, which with captovating and interesting to me as it In die Log with Joseph Boys of Hum, we have six thousand works in the collection that I oft in Performance related, to bring this marina Primovic institute into this place is suuch and adventure and so changing are museum, Schloss Neuland, Because of the many perspective in this institute from Brazill, from Ghana, from Kanada, from Servia Orspain from the nettalance from Itally.

50:34 Everywhere the the Artists are from Germany from everywhere and is can round breaking a think this idea also of of bringing, Und. The cented around a very important RK and collection of Joseph Boys. It's sexysting? Because we are here, ist äh, Ich all, so is not suppose to be it's what we have decided it will beautiful. It's with be are liga see what will be a place, Longderation Performers and so so the liga see, the liga see, I think, what, Und weiter, Name.

51:53 It's better that any kind of book, I kind of painting of and she was in then not anymore. A she was an incredible titcher, incredible professor, also der Institute we have to try to go had with that. Two talk with each performer and try to elb them to to realised what they wanna do and critisize and alpe that's the institute Das Director because Ive Binded directory when you started for rest simpor resism for ligger reson marinut was the president? And I was the director, because we just you was just the tour fast. But then after dot we we started working and then you have or the people there, so you ever kind of see oh with more in choose of the and missliv bald and you have the part was of the finance verempler.

52:58 And but all the others are like me, were basic creators. Äh Residencies like this äh regular part of mazed program. No, that's a big big big changs. Enrico because this is the first time that we aft to working for the Thema. Das. Ich project every all this was Arriving with are he is on project and, We were not trying to creates. It was not the point, but everybody was free and do whatever she do and we were I'll being the same way, but this time, we have a common, Ja und tschüss.

53:51 So the Residence was, Maria before the Residence huge chance because, Der Living Together for Week. Bei we could have ask them to create one work. Visuelle. We could other ascam to create one work. We didn't as them to do that. We are so them to create, twelve because I know what could up been for the next mounts. That gonna create different works, Relaxe.

54:29 I think this was obligator it was like the compersary to out this for weeks and a will because we are now only and the seven week. Together because, Ein komisches Leben ist to their together, they are dinner together that they discas together in this increvers place here and äh, so between them I'm not there, so I don't know, but, Brainstorming and I be a über to to it out about their on project for this exibition. This is happening? Ja, that's great because and this the first time that we have the chanced to do luck, Wir.

55:20 Maybe after darce it's good and be very the good for me of for the other creators to work like äh we did before. No it's tough. Can I jumpin. Mhm. I don't couple of projects with the institute of marinabramovic and I just wanna jumpin by that by sing that. Couchers, Das, Collabray together also all of this matters but in what is going to beton or presented.

55:58 In Experience and we hard in in Grease or in Brazil and so one. I think the space and itself like kive your ready, what you opportunity mights be? I thinks, that in per sample, we had in turkey. We were one week befored performance we all that, Und we never met before, People before. We didn't sweek, Wir starten, but three, How one would for this lieb?

56:49 Nee, language, which is I think our primal language the body speaks before the word. And so they fouring in turkey with did Dutch and that's how we entergen to the process, so we did experience something as a group to get picse it was a group show and we were and different places Here we do know how it's gonna happen your hows going to be done that's not my proud of the drop, but.

57:23 Giving that we are togethers I told to before and it just give was the ability as a artists and brings me back to just a voice in the fluxus time that this togetherness gives individuality something very powerful. I think this is artist and of the society would do this so the rituals, What I would say social ritus lasted last we share lest and lest time, we eat food together lesson less Technology I fin is absolutely great but it's also has distance us from also für me this process of residency.

58:07 Is wonderful I would even extended of bit more picse we talking but just a voice in piccus we are talking wew missumon to work, give in to as to resear, So we would need more time to di just all of this information. Community between Artists what the meets with out talking, what fair the going to be who cares?

58:43 Nee sometimes we talk about the different foods we eats and different places and so dot talk something happens all of a sitten to brain in a couple a days. This is very ähm special this time, I think it's a different way in the different entry in. And this entries important becausey greats energy or so, Betweeners, that's really to be what we are training to do every time before the project, you have one week of have days of exertize of the marry now is exercized. But it's not the same mus being together, Ich.

59:33 Materie. Mhm. Orts you a riving from Brocers, Und languages different Ich, äh und. And for the week for exumbern. This will be unique, Ich, Performance. Change is of a thing. It's like the way you ston acchangers when you good to italy need Italien food to saying body changes. The Works. The work. That's up. Important thing with performance.

1:00:42 Kümmert, you have to feel, you have to graph everything, But even to the same performance as to be refrom to trementsvater the Docons for be different. Die Antje in English so important to you to bring Marina Abramovich and Josef Boys into Adieu, and to connect that Dialog was a contemporary performance Art. Yeah this is very ähm interesting question.

1:01:17 Maybec me a little bit you performative Artist it. I'm a very intuitive present. And I do work as a muslim director now in the sevens here. I was working before in am using far opnorth. And nothing Germany, eine Kunsthalle Sankt Annen in Lübeck. Keine healthy some how and turino and ITC ma, In Talks I had with ähm and visits again coming back to this meet a head got to know, when I knows a Student in Düsseldorf, äh Aggwayback, came to the place and I have a very weared feeling.

1:02:06 I actually had to get in touch with Marina Abramovic and I was a very like almost like a feeling that hit me in the home Body Ende der Mind like everywhere that is would be super important to do this and to, Mario. Then Login, to this feeling further and got when Deeper and thirth, what is that about is place? What is it about the just of boys collection was very clearly connected to this feeling?

1:02:40 Ich. What a hand bin so clear about how much jose of boys with actually a performance artist already in the nineteen sixtys and doing what was send cold actions and using, Body. Around audiences in Front of and with audiences and there was a die again exchange of energy was very important for him here this idea of an energy plan. That's dit always mean, the Arter, not only himself as a artist is always a public thing for him. And a huge a social process as well.

1:03:32 Und dann look chines and a real life they had match in nineteen seventy three when marine did the first to performance outside of toose lavia in Edinburgh Festival entschieden. Performance, Wear she was äh basically plane this rush and nife game with she hard her hands and the she recorted and she repeat and play the recording again and just of boys with present there, And Marina Headcome with a group offenes Lavian Artists. And the curator of the student cultural center, da the come to the student culture center. That had been giving to gos Young Artist.

1:04:20 Bei Tito. To give them something. I don't think it maybe was enough what you gay them but it was something yeah to science them all to keep The Protest maybe down. And but also I gave the Miss Base of Freedom and Jose of Boys One of the fewartist that the time who than actually when east. You know was the time of the iron Curt and with the time between the East in the west to with not easy politically. But you was love it was the only Ich was äh kind of different way was not aight with the east of the west, anyway it was also not in the focus of the western Artworld and in the great way. Mhm. But jose of boys Und you also dilecture performance with some black boardical at the time, Marina Dina five where shees. Late down and a start at with burning on Fire and she fame to it past out, could of diete.

1:05:28 Ich recommander for performance Festivals for Example in Arnum in nineteen seventy eight which as very closed to here actually quaters of and our maybe to go. Wir, Marina, entweder dein Partner Uli, and Joseph Boys where all performing along with Katharina, Sieverding, Carily, Schneemann and Arthers, And I sad.

1:05:56 After to why if looking into this first emotion was a very much over looked part of Artistory, wetter always the parts that I'm interested in not so intersted in the optiers you know, even the I love the fameer painting is much as anyone some a hid and aspect of was not so creative, this really might have been the trigger for me to look at this.

1:06:25 Story äh Bit More and Develope performance Exibition and together with Amarina Prima of the and with Marina Bramovic as well. Hus reperformed, Then in Sheethous and five much later, she is reperformed one of boys pieces, how to explaine pictures to the dead hair. What he had performed initially and nineteen sixty five?

1:06:49 Schmäder Gallery in Düsseldorf and she performed asport of reseven easy pieces. At the googin hi me seem in New York, Das Performance entschiedened, also Googlen hime very as think massy, because she had a dead hair that was frozen you wanna came beste and then Und Frozen and Broad to the Artist and there was kind of unfreasing during the performance and äh you know the years äh she had and between hurt this.

1:07:26 Und that's why was a different performance? Ich. Material that they gave to here to look at. You knows where the galdery and had the hair and between his teas and, then Hew was kind of going intro this post or the lifting his thing, like his hand, like a teacher, ja explaining mysteriously explaining to the dead hair something about.

1:08:10 And is a very humatic, very My serious performance is head with cover it in Honey and gold leave, and Simulally Marina Destu. So is a lot of mystery around this performance. I say in this is also very, Vor allen Art-Historien hus. Interpret Artworks or to know how to context your life and artwork and is kind wonderful für'n Artwork das Resist, Ich helpul to hear more about the performances of boycent. Abramovich.

1:08:57 Ja, of course of boys resporn and nineteen twentyone. He was born in Krefeld in Kleve. Very closed to where we are now in is äh lower right regen, Und. Wir. Crasht, King weg. Study Art at the Kunst Academy in Düsseldorf, Integris studing, Mainlie was äh Sculpturen, die Dilotifer sculpture, which was also, Wenn Hislator Professorship so boys, Es gab applid Art someself.

1:10:12 Äh Memorial for the dead Solders äh in Büderich. Closed to Düsseldorf, Und Professor für Money Mentor Sculpture, Kunstakademie, and so let was sixty one and sixty free there was a very famous fluxusevent Festival. Technische Hochschule Aachen and this with really informus because, was a very wild group People the Fluxusartist for the toditional Coin war sir of Art in Germany at the time, you were expecting you know nice pictures, or nice music or, ja The Fluxus Crew will that had a come, you know with a jodge mit Tuners and other artist out of New York and then developed very strongly in Germany, was breaking all these rules, they were following John Cage and his you know de construction of traditional music, they were die constructing the see you to they will taking a part the sculp to the ideas,

1:11:24 Und. Joseph Boys was appart of performing there and the students got so upset with him WKC tippt over are bottled of chemicals and they dribs and into the audience. Then the Beach him on the knows and he was then strid there was are Platte hinaus in Holding up becross. King of very dramatic and but also showing his conviction an away. And then I've to that just Luxus.

1:12:04 Very with this international group of Artist and me hisciped, he organized fluxus events like the festen fluxurium he was was entworft in, Organized Suarie for John Cage at the Düsseldorf Kunstakademie and nineteen sixty four, äh he performed äh other people with nom Pike with Henning Christiansen so, very hard to see home as and i solated artistic person when you so much part of networks and hew so much part of performance and music and also die Constructing like Dada maybe had before the academic Ideas about Art. So.

1:12:52 A very present in our collection this well. Lot of the works up to nineteen sixty five and of courses early time sixty, is a very performate time in the works of jours of pice. And voice traveling a lot with his performances, he when you different places, he was in this international kind of relationships, Influence than the Fluxes movement Influence later Performance, Artist, like, oly and marina Abramovic or, Antikelement of, Maybe Joseph Beuys, or after Muth, so Marina Bramovic, comes from a very different place and she was born a nineteen forty six and bell great and she is dater of Und.

1:13:57 Who very hero ick people. And fighting is fight of Goethe Gans Ewe, keine very strict hous hold with a very strict mother. Ich was very spiritual. Very serby and arthogs question Kathleck, hat sich's and the spiritual, Enchy, Starchedy Paint, Reparents Gafers und Pains und Sheous Painting Clouds and then she was emergening other things to do when she so air plains fly by, Ich responsible Persony Jets and ask to use them for art and then workout and, Und ja, then your she was in this Art school context and she was support of the Student schießt da dies in Trigger äh Art, and was in this group of I think five other mail artist and they were experimenting with performate work.

1:15:22 Ja after Wild she hand is opportunity to go out into ed and pro Student culture center and to meet people act boys, and she also matter Partner oh line nineteen seventy six. I think and that was a very important meeting because Marina Hedden Married to, No the man in Belgrade, Und. Das November and, verlost together they want three, in they when to Australia chillith with the eperiganies and I had all these things and comment and they, Und they were, a sing cold relation works, really literally, yod at trave until the almost fantad or they run inch other so you kid really here, Body, Sticks, Lapping and Banging against see travel they were's going, you know over the limit of their own bodies.

1:17:05 That was a different level than of performance are that came in the nineteen seventy is worria sees actions of the sixties. Baby also, the audience and Wismarina und Ullay Performance, bekame a think in itself like a very focused almost sculptual setting, Das ist but serious a new focus on performance as a medium, replacing, the other media like sculpture, where as just of boys for examples so had a lot of materi real, that he was working with that we are not probs.

1:17:54 Explanatory Material von Marina und Uli ist Marina und Uli and the naked most one reble, and physical and mental and psychulagical shape. And then the split up after twelve viars. Yeah exactly that there was mensch we like that they would planning to walk this war long time. Wenn I think maybe, Chinese befored and so the capt trying, And by the time they got promission it was the time that they will going to break up and then, Walk the chines wall from opsit ends. One started from the desert and want started from the see.

1:18:56 Ich, and that was see and with all very terrible and I don't think thay gastronom, very well for long time. Und mit anyway the eat with sunly too there own they will had been very symbiotic and always re lying only chatter, Und. And so she was still living in Amsterdam mat the time, I four got to mention, that they will very big part of performance sehen, and she I think in the early two thousands and move to new York, And that again change to real. The kurs i mean in Between, that the was a Venospire new where shee to the very important, Bald, in the Gardini, where that was the time nineteen ninety six ninety ninety seven of the balcon war and she was äh set on a, Blase, kind of Gaun, ein Scherzen Water and she was trying to clean those Bone scrubbing them and their bio Pudding Messi, Blood

1:20:27 all over her and you know she started to big exhausted sad in all the emotions about war in that you must have been feeling inter this last to ceveral days in Venece, with as hot. Ich Material, And then start too smell and we very unpless and also for the Artist and Divisitors, and that with wonderful most universe pictures of war. And that to be honesty so that when I was like fifteen sixteen your soul just an Image afar.

1:21:15 Magazine, in strugg messe you know teenager that eye could really undercent better with wor was? Hout fertig, it was and how deep play, wrong it was in this women these bei uns cleaning something that go reparing something the can't be repard. Something they can't be cleaned, It was incredible and even I think a chilld good understanded. And that was a big game changer for marina Bramovici one the Golden Nion for that, the very prestiges, Ich, Die.

1:22:06 Exhibition the Artist dispreson bad Maria Menschent, eine Exhibitional Red Respective Souly of herperformance works. Curated by Klaus Biesenbach, Mouse now the Director of the neue Nationalgalerie in Berlin. There will reperformances, have a four to gos there were a videos of hour works, in the atreum of the easy of modern art. They was a very simple set up, Es were opposite each there and a very kind of, very clear distance between the two chairs, and the Artist actually set their in the atry for threemonths. Dearing the entire, Opening Times of them. So, eight hours every day, then on the you know long girl opening days äh would be ten hours so something likes that and you with move. She wouldn't goal to toilet, she wouldn't each she wink, she a just sit, there,

1:23:18 ähm. And do knothing and there was also a clear set of ruse, diversitors when not to lot to talk to here, Ich. Ich, Maybe ate again of Understanding or community or being, just being. Without technology. I think in between without even language which was the important aspect to I think to learn or two understand how to, bewissomebody and we like something about them or about yourself in the space of this performance.

1:24:17 Was thinking it's new York, in a nobody with gonna come and sit there, is äh got very proud it äh and I lot of people cued up, to sit the Wismarina los incredibly emotional. There was a lot of crying. Chill, children Cane, old a people cane, just people was and credible problems and fears and worries came and, very black a master piece. And it was all filmed and photograph so at head of really big Media reach, was in very strong work in that.

1:25:02 Ja ist äh performance. I think most to feel listen as will really know this be are tist this present. Marina Sitting there with the versiturs and a nothere important saying about that was that actually, oh like came, than in two thousand ten you know the break up in the early nineties and then, a lot of time of fighting and cord cases and not talking to ach the ent.

1:25:28 Handyset, Opposition, and there was a very emotional and that's like äh you know this hole love story also when toround the world you know everybody once da happy end, and and this kind of happend, because and marina brocer ruse, that not to engage, you know physically with the other pers and on the other of than shee and of, Ich, Hat very beautiful. Have you ever matter? Yes. I have matter, because clearly. I was very interested and working thir and I capt, sind asking, Collex, for context and äh I was writing with wonder fur asistance and standing concept that, Das, so was a Bit to complicated and then I work togain on the concept and like half your later i center in this again and serd to you know hey ist es äh maybe possible,

1:26:34 back to me want day and set hey year please mean Amsterdam, Ich. Seems a long time a go because a Metal many many times ever sense and he schein is different different place different setting, that first time with very important because I had this Idea for the sheet be very spiritual in Essence of being, you know, very asso word League kind of person, of goes I read about herr and all my arthistory books. I when I was young girl, and she was is very cool, New York, Lady with a balcon excent, aus.

1:27:30 She is very charming as well and very funny. Don't to earth, very black sense of humor and she make Jokes. Interested emeditly Wir very high level. Of the Artworld with the Art market being like a back story of the Artworld. And notive people are, Making lot of Fast about and so and I a thous so cool and let you was so, and funny and don't you earth and then I am what just matter a few times, we call she ähm, I think first, we when to visitor in New York in her Apartment. Du bist the Minister of Culture of noth Wene Westfalia, Ina Brandis.

1:28:26 Kurz auf Max Ernst Museum, Kunsthalle Bielefeld, Museum Directors. Then so, we salt, you know what we go there, let's try to askmarinaphe can me to there, And then I can of ast her is that okay and she it yes it's okay, I was very naiv a sorted delegation of the Ministry of culture with be like seven People?

1:29:03 And a few days before or like week before the Ministry send me this äh list and they will like oh yes twentyfive people. And I was shockt. I was very shock, because now. Over know. And I road to marina and sitty know it's twentyfive people and a totaliny understand if it's not possible we can go ways where, Ich.

1:29:37 And so went with the bunch of Museum dirrectors and the People formen the concealet and the German Embassy and äh, And ähm ja we had some chocolate cake that was a very memberables super chocolate cake, she gott us. Ein Coffee and Tea and Biskets and ski made a presentation for sput anyway we are all in her apartment, with scorches, In Manhattan, Wir.

1:30:18 Ich beautiful Book of Franz Kaffka Drawings on Hurd Living Green Tape with are remember that I was looking through the Franz Kafka Drawings, And then just later she a had a read respective at the Royal Academy of Art in London, The Royal Academy ist ultra exactly how many in will very british institution, Marina aus The First Women to ever have a real Solar Show in the main Exhibition space of the royal academy, after all it's time of existance, Ist, Entschieden weitet me, verehrt in Weited and they will like a hundred women from everywhere and the world from alwalks of life from al Professions and they were you know so different, one head and vented äh, wegsehen, that was important, Also.

1:31:35 Für so many women like was such a, Event, Marina aus Giving is Beach about all other Women Performance Artist not her on work, very beautiful that she show the works of Peanuti and other female Artist in this prame work, was ähm ja then we get to lotter nice to and scons and, Cake. It was really decadent. Buffet of T and cake and son very English is well, very.

1:32:22 British. Like äh like a visit a Queen. I think and I'm tharing you wally stories, because, I think that they a work is a lot of Artist and äh work very close league with lot of Artist, because I fing doing as a curator lot have Artistic research, wird es Artist from Belgray Marina Abramovicen Impact on my life and these lasts to years really, met you places or broad metschi places, where I never been and country situations and.

1:32:57 Never mac before and the changes me all the time. Very important to me and I very and appreciate here the human being in the artist a very very much. Little two with also be Experience an Dialog with the experien. Yes they will be and they will be in the main space of a exhibition hole that's when now be reopen of the seven ears of heaving been closed, Weshalb entirre seven hours of Marina Abramovic reperformance of how to explain the pictures to that hair?

1:33:34 And is will be in a very dark keine Space, very Dimmlit and they will be huge Film of her in the Google by Bat Mangold Humade this Film and docued this performance, keine. Jos of Boys original Performance, which of courses a documentation in black and white and was his äh performance setting at this mhm gallery so that the visitars can see, was Artist in movement?

1:34:15 In a very reduced space, very dark space and they can I think this can really help the imagination of what performance is, and also maybe what performance is äh by jose of voice and by Marina Bramovic. We are very lucky to have he and sercia in the podcast. Bad. Oh first second or securator but äh ya we walking together and I with Billy to with äh from New York City in working for Long time with Marina Abramoviches well and everybody is bring and there on prospective and attitude send humor, it's are coming together as a greep agast the curators the Artists the usy im Team.

1:35:13 I'm everybody has an important drowl in this process and that's really what Maria set essence of community and doing things differently then we are used to is so important I think in our times. We are recording this episodering the Residency in May and will publish it in line with the performances this summer.

1:35:35 Can you already give you so glimps award visitos can expect? Ich will be, but if you visit long dirational performances of the new realis that, very immediated and counter that is always very emotional, because the artist are in the space and you are, In the space is a Viewer and I think that the one of the most interesting vagnitions or realizations one could have in the face of Performance Art or experience think performance art.

1:36:13 Performance Artist I looking back. Painting and it's there it's also emotional, but it's got this distance of time and setting and context and place, Performance Artist in you, also Vior, hier. Work on your emotions and so many different ways also on depending where you are but we were the Artist are as well because day performed for eight hours every day, then äh Performance Changes Energy Changes, the emotion changes, so, I think I really strongly recommend the come here because is they also going to, Experience the Place the collection the Art the space in away that has never been before. Realismus.

1:37:15 Award Invitation to com and visit schloss moland and experience the touching power of Long Doration Performance, Antje, Maria, Christiana, Thank you so much for taking the time to speak so openly about your personal journeys about Marina Abramovic, Josef Beuys Schloss Meuland, the Mai and this very special residency.

1:37:40 To see what real experience here this summer. Super important, Und, Und project. Eveneve the performance unders, Thank a lot for being here. Thank you. Das war's für heute. Die nächste Folge erscheint in einer Woche und um sie nicht zu verpassen, folge der die Leichtigkeit der Kunst gerne auf deiner Podcast-App, Wenn dir diese Folge gefallen hat und dir auch die weiteren Episoden zusagen, dann hinterlasse doch gerne fünf Sternchen sowie eine wohlgesonnene Bewährung, Freue mich auch über Empfehlungen, Fragen, Kritik und natürlich auch weitere Themenvorschläge oder Gesprächspartnerinnen.

1:38:41 Dazu kannst du gerne die Social Media Kanäle von die Leichtigkeit der Kunst nutzen oder eine E-Mail an folgende Adresse schreiben, Info at Die Leichtigkeit der Kunst Punkt DE. Danke fürs Zuhören und tschüss bis zum nächsten Mal, deine Claudia. Music.