J.J. Warren: "Technology is a Means of Grace"

0:00 This is where I think Methodism then picks up in why it's so important to have acts of mercy is sanctification. All right, we've been changed, but now what? Music. The Holy Club. The podcast by, with, and about Methodists and all those who aren't one yet. Ja, willkommen, willkommen, willkommen. Ich bin Damian, ich bin Methodist und das ist der Holy Club Podcast.

0:44 Und every Monday we invite a United Methodist from all over the world to talk to us about Methodism and their personal faith. My guest today is JJ Rohren. He is from Austria, but originally from the US. We're going to hear a little bit more about that. I'm excited you have time to talk to us today, JJ.

1:05 And yes, where did you come from before? Where did you come from? Well, let's see. It's great to be back with you virtually. I am from upstate New York, from the Upper New York Conference of the United Methodist Church. and I am a commissioned clergyperson from the New England Conference of the United Methodist Church.

1:27 For those of us who are not familiar with the geographics of the US, where is New England? Is that like next to Britain? Yeah, really good question. So New England is a collection of states, I honestly, I could not name them all right now in the northeast of the United States. So it includes Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Vermont, a little bit of Connecticut. Ja.

1:51 Is there a famous town people know from movies or shows, like a city or something, in that area? Oh, you set me up well. So, one of them is probably Salem, Salem, Massachusetts, from the witch trials. And then also Boston, of course, is just fabulous. Boston, and for those of you who don't know Boston, that's where Harvard University is, right?

2:12 And Boston University, one of our 13 United Methodist higher education institutions. See, alright, that sounds good Okay, we're right there JJ, thanks for being here with us We always ask our guests mainly at the beginning what is your favorite United Methodist hymn? I would have to say Oh for a Thousand Tongues to Sing by Charles Wesley That was the right answer at least for me, my colleagues see that probably differently on the other end of the hosts but yeah, awesome For a Thousand Tongues, we'll put that song into the description of the episode so that people can listen to it and look it up for a thousand tongues or in German Mein Mund besinge tausendfach. I didn't know that.

2:58 Yeah, so once in a while we'll ask you some German things because you are able to speak a bit of Austrian German at least. Natürlich, ja. Natürlich. Gut. Fast. Fast. Cool. Yeah, for those of you who are wondering like, okay, have I seen or heard of JJ before? Maybe you have. I heard from him, actually, when he was speaking at the General Conference. In what year was that?

3:24 2019. 2019, so before COVID, and it was the main conference debating about the situation with mainly homosexuality in the Book of Discipline and how we treat people that way. So I thought, for those of you who haven't seen that clip, we will put that also in our episode description. But let's have a little short listen to that Let's have a little short listen I don't know if I can say that Let's listen to it for the moment And then you get an idea who JJ is.

4:01 As someone who has grown up in our church, as someone who is gay and goes to the least religious college in the U.S., my evangelism on campus has grown. We have brought people to Jesus because they said they have not heard this message before. They didn't know God could love them because their churches said God didn't.

4:29 And so if we can be a church which brings Jesus to people who are told can't be loved, that's what I want our church to be. And that's the Methodist church that I love and that I want to be a pastor in one day. I want to be a pastor in the Methodist church because I love our tradition. I love all of you.

4:53 We are the church together. This is the body of Christ And we are stronger together than we are apart And no plan to separate us Can unite us like God's love We are the church We are God's children Let us be the church together. Yes, wow I always hate to follow that guy What do you mean? When that's the video people show when I visit their churches It's always, there's so much passion there, and then you have to take a breath to release that tension of that time.

5:31 And praise the good Lord that the General Conference recently went in the direction of releasing a lot of that tension. Ja, so that was the question I just had I mean, it always gets me that I mean, I've watched it a few times and at that time it was really speaking to my heart and I felt like this passion and your love for God, for the people for yourself, for your evangelism you were noticing a little bit earlier in that video clip you did at your university when you look at it, you have watched it also a couple times and showed it a couple times.

6:04 Ja, was your thoughts on that? Besides, now I have to follow with my calm voice after that. But what is your thoughts on looking back at it? Six years now. Ja, ja, I think last year was the moment where it felt really full circle. So in that moment, in 2019, I was a reserve delegate to the Special General Conference to deal with once and for all, supposedly, homosexuality in the church.

6:33 Ich ging da und ich war in dem Kandidaten. Ich war in die Kandidaten. Ich war im Kandidaten. Ich war in die Kandidaten. Ich war in die Kandidaten. Some people in mein District Committee on Ordained Ministry had advised me to stay in the closet. Don't tell anyone about your sexuality because you won't be passed.

6:55 Our bishop is really strict. He was. He's now left for the Global Methodist Church. Und so, at that point, they were advising me to stay in the closet. And so, five years later, to be looking back at it, and obviously I didn't, five years later to be looking back at it and to hear myself say, I want to be a pastor in the United Methodist Church, and today to be a pastor in the United Methodist Church, there's a lot of healing in that journey and it felt very full circle last year when it hit the five-year mark since then to look back and to...

7:31 Look at the queer church that I lead, which we'll talk a little bit more about later, I'm sure. But it just, it has felt like a full circle moment now. Wow. Yeah, I cannot imagine how that must feel if the church or leaders in the church ask you to stay in the closet. Yeah. Isn't that, in a way, denying yourself?

7:53 Yes, exactly, exactly. Sadly, that's the point of a lot of it. I'm not sure about the German and Austrian context too much yet. I'm still learning from you. But in a lot of the US context, this United Methodism is woven deeply into the evangelical fundamentalist side. And so some of that spills over into who we understand ourselves to be as United Methodists.

8:23 Und diese Idee, dass in order to be godlich, wir müssen uns zu verabschieden, wirklich nimmt sich über, eher als was ich mehr als ein Wesleyan. Love, filling every capacity of my heart, as John Wesley said. You know, this abundant love and grace being the emphasis, rather than this more fundamentalist, you have to die so that Jesus can live.

8:52 No, you have to live fully in love so that others can experience the God who is love. Yeah, amen to that. I think this is a big misunderstanding in a lot of the more pious, more conservative, fundamentalistic movement that this kind of, you have to die and reject yourself, which is also, I would say, in areas in Germany where the pietism was pretty strong, in the East German parts and also in the Southwest of Germany, where people still believe that in a way.

9:26 And they always have the other thing is I'm never enough that goes along with the same feeling I have to reject myself I have to die for Jesus I don't have to have any desires at the same time I have to work, work, work read Bible, go to church, do good things and I will never be enough. I think there's a lot of things going on in that context Yeah, and you know it's funny you say that because especially during the pandemic I felt that Methodist perfectionism becoming a.

9:58 Stumbling block of, you know, I on the one hand, we have to be isolated to protect ourselves and on the other hand, how can I help people? How can I be serving people if I have to be isolated? And so it was this real tension of like, am I being a bad Christian by staying inside and protecting myself?

10:19 Or is that what's needed in this moment? And so, yeah, hearing that tension as you said a That not being enough, not being in some ways perfect, and wrestling with that aspect of what it means to be Methodist, really hit me during the pandemic. Ja, das ist ein guter Punkt. Wie hat man denn auch noch eine Methodist geworden? War man Methodist oder?

10:44 Du bist ein Methodist, die ich mir ausgesprochen habe. Und ich habe gesagt Methodist, auf mein Babydiver. Und das ist wie ich da. Das ist wie es in den Jahren. Oh, interessant. No, es ist funny. Ich habe in some ways, wie es sich an John Wesley ist, in dass ich ein Episcopal church a lot during the summers.

11:09 Let me say this real quick for our international listeners, especially the German-speaking ones. So the Episcopal Church is technically the Anglican Church in Britain, but they are a little bit separated in a way that they have their own power and rules. They are not connected to the Bishop of Canterbury or the Archbishop.

11:31 They work together, they see each other as one church, but they also have their own power or authority over each other, right? So, yeah, that's the Episcopal Church. It's the Anglican Church, where John Wesley and Charles Wesley are from originally. Yeah, and so going to that Anglican Episcopal Church in the summers, and then my family moved from Florida in the southern United States to upstate New York, and I'm one of seven children.

12:00 So, yeah, when we moved to a small town in New York, it was necessary to find a church with a good children's program. And the one in town with the best program just happened to be the Methodists. And so that's why we went to the Methodists. So that was since I was five years old, thanks to the children's programs.

12:20 Yeah, let's see how important that is, right? That churches offer stuff for different generations and kids. Yeah. Especially that's something I realize in the difference in the Methodist church here in the US compared to Germany or probably even Austria. Germans. They are more connected to what they know and what their religion is.

12:43 So when they grew up Lutheran, they go to a Lutheran church. And it's a harder way to get them away to a different one. In the U.S., it's more like, okay, I don't like the pastor, I go to the other church. Or they don't have a church program, I go to the Baptist church because they have one. And that's something that can happen in German culture, but rarely.

13:03 I wouldn't say that's a thing how we grew up. Das ist eine interessante cultural note. Our very market capitalism also relates to what we look for in religion and the freedom that we have. Exactly like you said, if I don't like the pastor, I'll go to a different church. It's just a whole different mindset.

13:28 Ja, komisch. Genau, that's very komisch. Okay, so growing up, nearly growing up with Methodism mostly, what would you say is, how would you define Methodism? What is the characteristics you love about it? Or would you say, if someone asks you, what is Methodism? What's the first thing you answer? Okay, well, first I'll give a little bit more of my connection to Methodism because I realized I didn't say this in the last one.

13:55 So grew up Methodist because of the children's program and then went to Methodist summer camp. Of course. Do you have those in Not really, not really. We have a program that's called JET, Jugendaktionstage, shout out for that. And that's like a whole week during Easter and one week during fall, where people come together and live at the church and have a youth program there.

14:22 It's pretty cool. And then another one is the Mega Camp, which is every two years with around 300 people in the south of Germany. Besides that and the national meetup, we don't really have those summer camps anymore. Okay, so it was like that, like those big events too. So Methodist Summer Camp as a camper, then became a summer camp counselor at this Methodist Summer Camp.

14:47 Und dann Conference Youth Programs In Upstate New York Wir hatten eine große Conference Youth Program Years ago, wo wir Plante events für 500 youth From around the state Every year, und wir kommen zusammen Für diese big events. Always involved in the Methodist Church Through youth programs Und dann, early on, feeling a call To be a pastor in the United Methodist Church Through all of that was, was, was, was.

15:27 But then also by traveling the United Methodist Connection and going with the Northeast jurisdiction, young adults, we went to India on the mission of peace that they do to meet Methodists and people of all different faiths in India for three weeks. And it was amazing. And so this experience of local and regional and international connections, the buzzword of United Methodism being connectionalism, it really, it gave me something in my small town that I didn't have, you know, of growing up in a small town.

16:05 And, you know, as a young gay person in a small town, the idea of being connected to people all around the world felt freeing. And so that's one thing I've really valued about Methodism, which is why I love this podcast, too. Ja, ja, thank you Ja, Connectionalism, Connectio in the German term is one of my favorite characteristics about Methodism and it's something we come back to in every episode right now it's really interesting that every time people mention like when you meet Methodists in other countries or areas even if it's just a neighbor country like Austria there's immediately like a connection in a different way Es ist nicht nur Christens, wir sind Methoden.

16:53 Und da ist etwas speciales zu das. Und das ist, you know, das ist wie wir started talking, du und ich, erst. So, during the pandemic, ich war Interviewing Pastors und Laypeople von Around the Connection für mein zweckend Buch, wo zwei oder drei sind Connected. Und das war mein Weg, dass ich meine Meinung habe, dass es Wissen in Menschen.

17:18 Or a connection around the world. And I want to know how our very idea of what it means to be the church is changing because we've moved online. And so talking to you, talking to pastors from the Philippines, from Singapore, from Kenya, and across the United States, yeah, it was just fascinating to hear the wisdom and the experiences that are all around the connection and to learn how we as a church are evolving to meet the demands of our time.

17:48 Yes, and which I think is interesting to learn from other pastors, for example, or Methodists in general, when they live in a different context, like I talked to a pastor from the Philippines, David Valera, who will be on the podcast as well, and he told me that he really had to relearn how to be a pastor when he moved to the U.S., because in the Philippines, he was just like, Like, people, until today, do their breaks, you know, on the fields.

18:18 They go under the tree, and they sit in the shades for, like, two or three hours until the cloud comes, and they can go back, like, working. And that was the moment where he came, brought some water, and said, Hey, ever heard about Jesus? And then they started talking, right? And then on Sunday, they came to the Methodist Church, because he just took time to talk to them.

18:38 And he said, Damien, that would be weird to do this here now in Seattle und gehen zu einem office und sagen, hey, du willst du über Jesus reden? Right. So that's like a cultural thing which still works today where people change how they are the church and how they live it out. Did you get any insights from those conversations that you have on your mind right now?

18:59 Like, what does it mean to be the church? Like, a couple ideas. Yeah, you know, I think this is something that excites me about United Methodism is, you know, we're nerds here. When I think about technology and digital technology, virtual technology. I think the United Methodist Church and our theology is perhaps the best position to embrace this new reality.

19:26 Because I think technology, what I learned from all of those conversations with pastors and lay people around the connection, was that technology can be a means of grace for the church today. It can allow us to reach more people in a more accessible and more just way. One of those examples was a district superintendent in the Philippines.

19:49 And she said, one of our pastors started texting the liturgy to the Aita, the local indigenous community. And so in that way, the Aita were able to receive what was happening. Aber sie hatten die Agency zu sagen, oder zu blockieren. Und so gab es diese große Angelegenheit auf der Seite der Participante, die ich denke, ist wirklich notwendig, besonders als viele Leute in der Welt sind mit Churches beschäftigt.

20:20 Wenn wir über churches, auch einfach zu gehen, als eine Triggering-Experte durchsichtigste. There's this layer of grace and agency that just isn't there when you have to walk through a church or if you can't even physically access the church because a building isn't designed for your body. Yeah, that's a good point.

20:44 When you mentioned a means of grace, that's a term in German we use Gnadenmittel. And Wesley, right, John Wesley used his famous ones were like prayer, fasting, communion, worship service, attending worship service. So, and that's also another thing. We go, come back in the last episodes with other people, someone said, for me, one of the means of grace is just food.

21:09 Experiencing food with others. And you now brought up the technology as a means of grace. And that's something new. I've never heard it that way. So is that a reason you are doing what you're doing right now with your online church. Can we talk about that a bit? Yeah, and actually I love that Means of Grace is coming up so much because I think that's the other hallmark of United Methodist theology that I just love that for Wesley there were these, two halves that had to coexist.

21:44 On the one hand we had acts of piety and as you said, reading Reading the scriptures, Holy Communion, prayer, fasting, these are acts of piety. This is one category of our means of grace. And then that other equal half is acts of mercy. And the fact that we have to have both. We can't just be having communion and praying and neglecting actually attending to the needs of the poor, the sick, the dying, the refugees in our midst, that both of these had to be working together.

22:19 As Wesley said in his sermon on the sick. We lose a means of grace if we are not physically present with the sick, that we actually lose a means of grace if we are not putting our bodies, ourselves, in relationship with the marginalized in our community. So I just love that because I think it has that evangelical fire that excites a lot of people.

22:48 You know, yes, we are spiritual people and this spirituality leads us necessarily to respond to the needs of our neighbors. These two have to work together. Otherwise, we don't have a whole life of faith. Sure, right, man. But what is your theory, and I'll put you on the spot right now, why? Because you mentioned the evangelical fire, and I experience a lot of people here in the more conservative campus ministry, they have the fire for Jesus, and they say we have to rescue people, like save them for eternity, and so they talk to people about Jesus and about what you have to believe and stuff.

23:28 But in those conversations I had so far I never hear much about helping the poor and how we do willy acts of mercy towards people. Why is that I feel that's an American cultural thing why is that so separated that we have this fire for saving people from hell but not really in this life from what they are suffering You have made my nerdy theologian heart just so excited.

24:02 I think this is the key. You know, once again, obviously we United Methodists don't get everything right. But this is one thing that I think we really get right. On the one hand, Evangelicalism, broadly speaking, puts the emphasis, as you said, on that personal moment experience of salvation. In Methodism, we understand grace and the process of salvation as a movement of three.

24:33 We have prevenient grace, God's presence, which is there before we even know it. The justifying grace, which is what fundamentalists believe, that's their moment of salvation, right? This justification, this moment where I experience the overwhelming goodness of God, what God has done for us, as Wesley says.

24:54 So that's where evangelicalism, fundamentalism stops, justification. And this is where I think Methodism then picks up in why it's so important to have acts of mercy, is sanctification. All right, we've been changed, but now what? Well, Wesley said, now we're being sanctified. We have to grow daily into the image of God. We are being regenerated.

25:18 Our souls and our bodies are being regenerated with the divine love of God. And every day we are growing more into that image of love. So this movement from justification to sanctification is, I think, what's so important. And it's what's often missing in United States fundamentalist evangelical circles.

25:37 Yeah, I feel like maybe the reason is also it sounds like a theological concept, which is not really spelled out what that means in your daily life as a Christian and to help people to understand that. And I realized that when I was starting membership class here at the Chini Church, one part when we talk about theology and differences to other churches is our open communion table and those three parts of grace.

26:05 I'm always explaining that and trying to make a point there and seeing that this is like because it is a process. Being a Christian, becoming a Christian and staying a Christian or whatever and being in this, realm of grace from the beginning towards the moment of realizing it and then working through it or with it and so for our German listeners I just want to, throw in the German terms here Das ist die vorlaufende Gnade, ist die Provenient Grace, die rechtfertigende Gnade, justifying, und die heiligende Gnade ist die Sanctifying Grace.

26:43 Just some knowledge here. But there's a great book for our theology nerds out there. It's called Gelebte Gnade. It's a Methodist book, Gelebte Gnade, from Walter Kleiber, our retired bishop, and Manfred Marquardt, a professor for systematic theology at the seminary, both retired. I think Manfred Marquardt also died a couple years ago, but they wrote the book Gelebte Gnade, which they talk about those kind of things of Methodist theology in German context.

27:17 Thank you. You're welcome. And also for those nerds out there, want to read a bit more theology, it's good to read. It's not too difficult. It's good to read. And so I kind of went, I circled around your question by going into the means of grace, but that's why it all is connected. But that's why this sanctification part of like, what does it mean to live as a Christian?

27:41 And especially as a United Methodist, where works of mercy and compassion and justice are part of this life, that then led me to start a small nonprofit called Young Prophets Collective right after General Conference to say there are a lot of young people around the connection and especially a lot of young LGBTQ people around the connection who are feeling alone and who still want to be part of this church and want to have a voice in shaping what it becomes.

28:14 Young Prophets Collective began just as we would meet on Zoom. This was even before the pandemic, simply because we were all around the connection and to talk with one another, to build community, and to make plans of how we could create space for young queer people in the church. That grew. Two years ago, people in the community said it would be really nice if we had a worshiping community that was just all led by young lgbtq people so i said okay if if you want to do this then you'll have to help me lead it so two years ago we started a virtual church on a platform called gather and it's a bit like a video game style bit like sims or pokemon go and it's a mashup between that like sims pokemon

29:08 go and zoom und ein paar big companies use Gather as well so you can walk around as a little avatar simply on your laptop and then when you get close to someone you can see their face like I can see you right now or if you're FaceTiming someone it's just like that you can see and talk to them so we meet in that little virtual sanctuary walk around people come for worship on Saturdays into our virtual sanctuary and it's all LGBTQ led and allies are always welcome to participate as well, Und ich habe gesehen, und es ist wirklich ein paar passion und lief in wie, ich weiß nicht, ob es nur ein Team hat, das ganze Sanctuary und das ganze Raum, office spaces, wo die Leute einfach nur arbeiten und machen.

29:55 Ich denke, es ist ein sehr cooles Weg zu connect und zu bringen Leute zusammen. Und ich weiß, aber ich werde das Frage stellen. Ist es eine Grunde warum du auf Saturdays für Worship, nicht auf Sundays? Yes, we are not Seventh-day Adventists, we are still United Methodists. We meet on Saturdays. Wesley thought of his early groups, the meetings, as a ministerium extraordinarum, as not starting a new church, but as an extra, an extraordinary ministry to add to the spiritual life of the current churches.

30:32 And so we think of ourselves in a way like that, where a lot of people, you know, they might enjoy going to a physical church in their area, but it might not be an affirming church, or it might not be a physically accessible church, or they might be the pastor of the church. So we meet on Saturdays so that folks can be in queer community, enjoy worship, enjoy being a participant, and then can continue to go to physical churches on Sundays if they love.

31:02 Awesome. And I want to ask, because always when there's something new, there's sometimes pushing back in a way. Did you have any pushback in creating it where people were like, the church cannot be online, or this is not really a worship service, or those kind of stuff happening? What happened? Ja, surprisingly, good old United Methodist, right?

31:30 On the one hand, I love that we have a method for everything. And on the other hand, sometimes our method creates more madness. Yes. If it's able to overcome. And so, on the one hand, the conference has been really supportive. They financially support our ministry as a new church start. Und auf der anderen Seite, mein Bordeaux-Bordain-Ministri, manchmal nicht ganz verstehen, was es zu sein, dass es ein Online-Church ist.

32:00 Was ist es wie zu tun, die sacraments online? Kann man wirklich eine Erfahrung von Holy Communion online sein? Was ist das wie? Und das defaultein, dass es nicht möglich ist. Meanwhile, wir alle erleben, während der Pandemie, weil wir gezwungen, dass es kann, online sein kann. So meine Frage ist, Rather than saying, can Holy Communion or worship happen online, how can we do it well?

32:33 What are we trying to do with these rituals, if they're in person or online? And let's do them well. And I think that's an important question for everybody who's involved in worship in general, to ask, why are we doing this? So after two years doing this online worship church or connective church, Und was ist dein Resultat, der Moment?

32:59 Resultat nicht in der Weise wie, wie viele Mitglieder du getest? Mein Frage ist eher wie, wie es geht so far? Was ist etwas du gelernt und was ist etwas du kannst in dieser Online-Church? Es ist ein bisschen wie, wie ist es mit deinem Soul? Wie ist es mit deinem Virtual-Church? Das war ein bisschen der Frage, ja. Ja, wie ist es mit der Virtual-Church?

33:23 Es ist wohl mit unserer soul. Es hat sich für mich, als ein nerdy Methodist kid war, ich liebte zu play-church als kid. Es ist weird, dass du wie, huh? So, my brother und ich would build little sanctuaries or put chairs and have our stuffed animals on them. We just loved to play church. Having a virtual church, such a nerd Und having a virtual church has been like my childhood dream come true because no matter where I am, I can always go to church.

34:03 So I can open my phone and I can walk around our sanctuary and I can go to the altar. I can walk around a virtual prayer labyrinth. So that's one thing, is it's just been a lot of fun. And I think something that surprised me that's gone well, is that a lot of people who either have a physical disability or would identify as neurodivergent, you know, maybe they have ADHD.

34:34 Having an online church has actually been a really positive thing that we've gotten a lot more, I would say a majority of our community identifies as neurodivergent, which was not something I was expecting at all, but just makes sense. Like Wesley, going into the fields to talk with the workers, going to the place where people are, a particular community of people, I forgot, I had not realized that being online would be present to a particular community that wasn't being served in the churches that currently exist.

35:11 Yeah, that's cool. Thanks for sharing that. When people want to join that church or check it out, how is the process of that? Do we have to fill out an application or have to prove I'm an ally or I'm part of the LGBTQ community? How does that work? Exactly. What's the method? That's the question. What's the method? What is the method? Yes.

35:34 You can go to our website, youngprophetscollective.org. And there's a tab that says Church of the Young Prophets. and there you can find all the information including a video of how you click the link, how you access it, how you walk around and what not. The security measure that we have to make sure that it's a safe space is that the first time you click that link you'll have to be admitted by a community member so whoever, we can't be Zoom bombed.

36:08 Random people just showing up in a Zoom meeting can't happen because you have to be admitted Sie Und dann sagen. So, that's what would happen your first time. Okay, good. So, we put that link also in the text of the episode, so people can just click on it and check it out. I think it's a great space.

36:54 Okay, cool. Thank you for sharing that. I want to ask, like, in a totally different topic, you're now living in Austria for how long again? Almost three years. Three years, okay. Okay. What is the difference you realize from the Austrian church culturally to the United Methodist Church? Or the German church? You visited some German Methodist churches, I assume?

37:18 I was supposed to, and then the pandemic happened. Yeah. And yes, so I honestly have not visited. I've only met German United Methodists and had conversations, but never been to a German Methodist church. Yeah. Shame on you. Not to fix that. Yeah. But you have been in Austria, to Graz or Salzburg or something?

37:40 No, just to the congregation here in Wien at Fünfhaus, but to the English-speaking Methodist church here. Good. And it was surprisingly, you know, I kind of expected mostly white people. And it was a beautiful experience of the church in its fullness. Mostly, a lot of the folks came from different countries in Africa.

38:04 And so to see a really diverse, English-speaking, United Methodist Church in Austria was a really nice experience. And that's something that's very different, that the English-speaking ones are normally pretty diverse. Also in Germany, in Munich or Hamburg or Kiel, they have international churches that are pretty diverse, but the German ones or the Austrian ones are pretty wide.

38:32 Es ist so much. Aber ist es ein Unterschied, du hast es, ich meine, did you tell me something about when you got invited for a speaking in a church or something? I would say that's a cultural difference, isn't it? How much do they pay in a Methodist church in Germany or in Austria? You didn't tell me this was a time for hot takes. All right, this is our hot take.

38:53 So, I believe from the Bible, as Paul said, you know, we have to take care of our ministers. We have to pay for them to support their work. And in the United States, we take that very seriously in many places. That's very true. A set amount that you have to pay a guest preacher, and that's pretty standard across the board in United Methodist Churches in the United States.

39:21 So when I came here and I was invited to speak at the Vienna Pride Gottesdienst, I said, all right, you know, just whatever honorarium, that's what we call it, whatever honorarium you're able to pay with your budget is fine. You know it's fine my normal fees in the united states i understand are different and i got an email back that said there must have been a miscommunication because we don't pay people here so that was culture shock yeah it's really a very very typical thing and i think in the whole europe that they don't really pay people for speaking or the only thing they normally do with the travel costs.

40:12 Wow. But in the US, it's very different for the listeners to us. They pay well for that kind of stuff. Without us, that's appreciation in a different way, right? Yeah, that's a cultural difference. But talking about money, JJ, we have a question I like to ask our people is, if you had unlimited time and unlimited resources, what would you do with that?

40:39 Oh, unlimited time and unlimited resources, let's see. I would take out as many ads as I could on Instagram so that more young queer people know that there are affirming Christians out there. Wow. Especially now in the Trump presidency. Just even knowing that a place like our virtual queer church or your affirming campus ministry, just knowing that those exist is so important.

41:13 So, I would buy all the ads. I wish the money wouldn't go to Meta, but yes. That's a good point. Because sometimes I always meet people. You were here at our event. We had a Queer Christianity event at Eastern Washington where I'm teaching German and our campus ministry there. And I had people there for the first time who said they never knew that there was an affirming Christian space.

41:42 Right, right. In general, not just there, but in general. That Bible study or that small group that we had was the first time they had ever experienced in affirming Christians. In the year of our Lord 2024 at that point, how is this still a thing? Yeah. And I feel like, isn't there Google or something you can use to, like, is it okay to be gay? I don't know.

42:07 But apparently they don't even think that and don't even try to figure that out. Right. So yeah that's a good point I like it yeah let's see so if you want to donate to young prophets and make that happen go ahead feel free. Okay two more questions and then we have to come to an end unfortunately already, but is there something we reprised the Methodism and the United Methodist Church so much and it's a great church and if you don't know it so far EMK the German, short um um, Help me out.

42:44 Appropriation? No. Abbreviation. Abbreviation, yeah. Which means the only possible church. Here I thought it was the engagement of the decision. When you listen to a podcast, you know why, right? That's how it should be. But, you know, we praise it and we love our church. But is there something that frustrates you sometimes, or all the time, or where you feel like, I wish that would change?

43:15 That's something that goes on my nerves. Well, being in the midst of the finishing the ordination process right now, I would have to say our ordination process. And you've had some struggles with this as well, I think. Yeah. That we say we're one church, and yet our method is not the same around the world.

43:43 We have to, of course, make space for contextual differences and understandings. But even in the United States, our processes for ordination can be drastically different and have different requirements, including classes you need to take. So I finished seminary without taking a preaching class, because it's not required in the discipline.

44:06 And then my Board of Ordain Ministry added the year that I was in the process, oh, by the way, now everyone needs a preaching class for our conference. So there's not a lot of standardization. And secondly, a lot of people bring their own ideas of what it means for a United Methodist pastor. to be a pastor.

44:31 Ideas which aren't necessarily in the Book of Discipline. One of those ideas is that a pastor, an elder, has to be in a local church. That's the idea that a lot of people bring on the board. And our discipline says clearly elders can be appointed to study like I am right now, so appointed to doctoral ministry. I'm doing my PhD here.

44:55 Elders can be appointed to hospitals, elders can be appointed in a variety of places outside the local church too, just like deacons can be appointed outside the church, elders too. And so that has been a struggle for me in my process of someone who isn't necessarily called to be in a physical church.

45:16 Having people not understand an elder doesn't have to be in a church is still a struggle. Yes, and I feel that's most of the time personal thing of the people who are part of the board that they feel like this is how it should be and then they make that a requirement right. Last question, and then we end this today.

45:40 In all of this, what's going on right now in our countries, not just the United States, but also in Germany and Austria, it's crazy. What gives you hope? What is something that gives you hope? Yeah, until recently, being here in Austria gave me hope. Because, you know, the politics were so much better.

46:03 Es ist ein breath of fresh air to be outside of the politics from the United States. Und dann haben wir hier auch wirklich recht-wingen hier, which ist terrifying. So, ich find hope, in die students that I have hier at the University of Vienna und in die Virtual Church. These sind die Leute, die, despite everything, still gather together für worship, still take the time on a Saturday to hang out in a virtual church and are actively embodying a different way to be Christian, actively be celebrating diversity and to be in a space that says all of who you are matters that's what gives me hope Awesome, thank you for sharing, being together with other people and seeing that people care and think differently

47:00 and want to worship a God of mercy and grace and not giving in to this national Christianity that's out there. Wow, thank you very much, JJ, for the conversation. I hope everybody who was listening could take something home for themselves, something to reflect on. And if you want to check out JJ's church, what's the name actually?

47:24 I think you didn't mention it. You said Young Prophets Collective? Okay, Church of the Young Prophets. Check it out. Have a look at this church. Follow him on Instagram. Follow us on Instagram. If you like this episode, give us a like and share it with your friends and family and whoever needs to know how great Methodists are.

47:46 Until next time, stay curious, stay faithful and keep the holy conversations going. This has been The Holy Club. Music.