Shane Claiborne: When Loving Your Neighbor Gets You Arrested

0:28 Welcome, welcome, welcome to another episode of the Holy Club Podcast. And friends, if you haven't tuned in for a while, it's season number two, and we are having a closer look at the revised version of the social principles of the United Methodist Church. And during November and December, we look closer at the section called Political Community.

0:49 And for that, I have a special guest today. He is someone who shaped my faith, helped me not to let go of God when the evangelical mindset did not make sense anymore, and who showed me a way of hope with his books and social media posts. He is the co-founder of the Red Letter Christian Movement, and he is a champion for grace, which has led him to jail advocating for the homeless and to places like Iraq and Afghanistan to stand against war.

1:18 Und lately, er ist sehr loud über den Injustice und Killingen in Gaza und arbeitet hard zu enden der Death Penalte und hilft, zu stopp gun violence. So, ich bin mit Shane Claiborne. So, willkommen, Shane. Ja, gut zu sein, mit dir. Danke für den inviten, man. So, where are you at the moment, actually? I'm in Philly.

1:39 I'm in my, where I call home most of the time, on the north side of Philadelphia. We've been building a community here for almost 30 years. So, yeah, if any of y'all are over this way, come hang out with us. So, when you say you build a community, are there no communities in Philadelphia? Phil? Well, there's, you know, I think communities have a lot of different shapes and forms, but we.

2:11 30 years ago had a group of mothers and children that were living in an abandoned church building, and that really is what sparked our community. And we started reading about the early church in the book of Acts in the New Testament, and it says that they shared everything they had. And, Und wir haben das Gefühl, wir haben das Geld, wir haben das Haus, das ich in jetzt habe.

2:35 Und jetzt haben wir ein Village, wir haben Murals und Community Gardens und Community Health Center und ein Bildung, wo wir meld down guns und turnen sie in den Garden Tools. So ein bisschen alles, man. Wow. Is that in downtown Philly, or how do we have to imagine that? Or is that like sort of in the suburbs?

2:59 No, it's not the suburbs. Philly's made up of a bunch of different neighborhoods. And if you take kind of an aerial view, you can see that a lot of these were kind of autonomous. You'd have a big factory and then a school and a church, and the row houses were formed around that. It was all kind of walkable.

3:19 And Philadelphia's made up of a bunch of different neighborhoods. und sie haben Namen. Ich kann walken, ich habe es viele times, es ist ein mile oder zwei. Du bist ein mile oder zwei in Amerika? Das ist rare. Ja, man. Ich bin, shoot. Da war ein time we walked 300 miles from D.C. To New York trying to advocate for families living on the streets.

3:47 Those are special walks. Yeah. Cool. What's the name of that community? Is that something people can look up on the internet or so? Yeah, it's The Simple Way. So thesimpleway.org. And yeah, you can catch all kinds of glimpses of what we're up to. We've taken a lot of abandoned houses and we fix those up into affordable housing.

4:12 So that's conveniently called Simple Homes. So it's simplehomes.org. Und dann die Arbeit wir machen, um gun violence zu machen, ist hier auch, wo wir, inspiriert von der Image der scripture, Beating Swords into Plows, wir Turnen Guns into Garden Tools und Art und Jewelry. So wir get our name für das von Flippingen die Wort War, um es Raw Tools.

4:40 So Raw Tools, Philly, Turning Guns into Garden Tools, und wir tun das hier, um die Korne. Awesome, we're going to put that in the show notes so people are interested to look that up we are already getting into the topic for today, but I have a little game so people can get to know you a bit and we're going to challenge you a bit in that game for our German listeners it's called Entweder Oder, and in English I would probably just translate it this or that and you have to make a decision you cannot duck out of it Aber es ist eine joker, die du kriegst. Es ist eine joker, die du kriegst.

5:16 Okay, got it, ready. So, the first question is, Maryville, Tennessee, oder Philadelphia, Pennsylvania? Oh, wow. I mean, I'm going to go Philly. That's where, you know, the City of Love, it's been home for 30 years. So I love Maryville too, but going to go heavy on the Philly foot. Okay. So for the listeners, you were born or grew up in Maryville, right? I see.

5:44 Awesome. Second question, going to the circus or praying at the Capitol in D.C.? Oh, wow. Wow, these are great loves of mine, so I have to choose, but I have to choose. Okay, do you want my extended answer, or do I just choose and then be quiet? Yeah. How does this game work? Tell me the rules, Damien. So you have one joke, if you want to choose both, but there are harder questions coming, I'll tell you that.

6:16 Okay, well, I'm going to say this. I've gotten arrested for praying at the Capitol, and I was just told that I've hit my limit. So this is not a frequent flyer card where you get credentials. You actually get increasingly punitive consequences. So if I pray in the Capitol right now, I would certainly be arrested and probably not released.

6:42 So I'm going to not pray in the Capitol because I've been there, done that. und dann auf die Circus. Das ist mein final answer, Damien, Circus. Okay, das ist gut. So Circus, du hast eine Training in das, oder? Ja, es ist ein bisschen rusty, aber ich bin ein Fire-Breather, Fire-Eater, Unicycle-Rider, Juggler, mein wife macht das ein bisschen mehr, auch noch, auch noch, ein paar Magic-Tricks auf mein Sleeve, was nicht, ja. Cool.

7:11 Und warum würde du jetzt Arresten? now. I mean, isn't the current government so Christian that praying is the best thing you can do? Like, I mean, we need about an hour to talk about that. But yeah, the quick answer is, it all depends on how you pray and who you're willing to bow and burn incense to.

7:39 So some people are arrested and some people aren't. And we happen to be the people, even though we just pray to the sweet Lord Jesus, we are arrested and detained. So, yeah. Okay, third question, maybe a bit easier. United Methodist Church in Cheney or Willow Creek Church in Chicago? Oh, definitely going to go with the old United Methodist, not just because I know my audience.

8:06 But I, you know, had a lovely experience at Willow Creek, but there's been some rocky waters lately. I'm not sure I know too many people there. Someone just hang with the UMC, man. Good to be with you. Boom shakalaka. Yeah. In the Promised Land over there, too. How long did you stay at Chicago? Because Willow Creek was something that inspired me when I started becoming a Christian. I was like, wow, that's pretty cool what they're doing there.

8:30 Yeah, I mean, there's many things that I really learned and was energized by at Willow Creek. I mean, part of it was that this mega church, you know, that ended up being like 20,000 people every week worshiping together. Es begann als eine Jugendmove und es begann mit einer fairen Anzahl von disenchanted jungen Menschen, die mit der Kirche als usualen und wollten zu re-imagineen es.

8:59 Und sie waren auch inspiriert von den gleichen scriptures in den Buch von Acts. Und es war sehr unterschiedlich, um, unsere expression von der in Philly, aber es war, There were tons of things I learned there and a few bones to spit out. But yeah, man, I mean, when I worked, I worked with the high school ministry and there were, you know, maybe 2000, you know, students in the youth group at Willow Creek when I was there.

9:31 And it was still had a very youthful, energetic, imaginative kind of vibe to it. The amount of resources and wealth in the suburbs is just mind boggling. So some of the building projects that were, you know, tens of millions of dollars, I didn't really get that part, but I love the vision of community and of, you know, a missional group of people that want to welcome everyone.

9:56 And a lot of that's what I experienced there. And I've got a lot of great friends that, you know, go all the way back to the 1900s when I was there, man. Yeah. Crazy. Okay, well, that leads to the question, the book of Genesis or the book of Acts? I'm awful partial to the red letters in the Gospels, but that's not one of my options.

10:22 So I don't get the Sermon on the Mount, but I do love the energy in the book of Acts. I mean, the whole Bible is the Word of God. But when I look at, you know, what it looks like to be the church, I think of, you know, in the book of Acts, it said these young people, this movement of folks are causing trouble all over the empire.

10:45 And now they've come here, they're pledging allegiance to a king different from Caesar. So I love it all, man. Yeah. And I love the way that they shared and the kind of fresh expression of church that you see in the book of Acts. So that certainly is a part of what fuels what we do even now. Cool, yeah, that's a good answer. I take that.

11:10 Okay, you wrote a couple books, so my question is, which book do you prefer? The Irresistible Revolution, Living as an Ordinary Radical, or Jesus for President, Politics for Ordinary Radicals? Oh, man, there's such different projects. But, I mean, someone had a really good idea because The Irresistible Revolution had been written, you know, I think I wrote it in 2006.

11:33 So I did a remix of it and put, like, notes in the margins and stuff, you know, and kind of updated it. That was fun. But the thing about Jesus for President is it does go from Genesis to Revelation, and it's the story of kind of, we called it animated theology. You know, it's like a graphic novel, but only like theology and stories of scripture.

11:56 The thing I love about Jesus for President is it was so collaborative. There's art and all kinds of visuals. So I'm going to go with that one, man. I mean, especially for the moment we're living in. But, you know, it's always humbling when people read your stuff and it's meaningful to them. So, you know, I'm grateful to, but Jesus for President was a pretty fun project.

12:22 And the audio book also has like music and stuff in it. So it's pretty fun. Yeah, that's good to know. Yeah, for me, I was really, the first time I heard about you was the book you wrote together with Tony Campolo. Rest in peace. And that was in English, it's called the Red Letter Christian Movement, I think, right?

12:45 Red Letter Revolution ist was it called in English. And the German translation was just Jesus Revolution. Okay, cool. Because I was reading a lot of books from John Ortberg, Bill Heibald and stuff when I was in Germany and there was like, Where is this engaging with the social justice, with the ethical topics, right?

13:08 And why are conservatives always thinking in that direction? And I couldn't wrap my head around it. And then I read that book from you two, and I was like, okay, this feels right. This is like a way of thinking and understanding Jesus. Yeah, man, well, that means a lot. And I mean, the Jesus revolution isn't a bad translation, you know, because we get the red-letter language from the Bibles that often have the words of Jesus in red.

13:37 And Tony and I started Red Letter Christians almost 20 years ago, I guess. And he passed away last year, right before his 90th birthday. So that's when you celebrate a life well-lived. And I'm obviously missing on this side, but it's been a privilege to do projects like that. A lot of my books have been collaborative with folks that are friends or that mentored me, like Tony.

14:05 I wrote a book with John Perkins, who is pushing 100 years old now. And he's the son of a sharecropper, African-American civil rights leader. And so that friendship has been really special, too. So, yeah, man, I'm glad that book was meaningful. The Red Letter Revolution or the Jesus Revolution, as you would say, over there. Aber ja, man.

14:27 Ja, wenn du nicht read it, our listeners recommend it hardly. Ja, go ahead. Yo, ich habe noch ein Joker. Wie viele mehr habe ich? Ich habe drei mehr. Okay, okay. Nummer 7. Radical simplicity, like owning little, oder radical generosity, giving a lot? Hmm. I'm going to go with simplicity. You know, there's an old saying that's like, sometimes what matters is not how much you give, but how much you have left.

15:04 Good. And also like how much love you put into the giving. And so like, I think that simplicity starts with our own heart. It also, regardless of how much money you generate, you kind of live relatively the same. Und da ist ein Ritz-Tradition in der Church whereas generosity ich denke, kann be great kann be done in ways that insulate us from real relationships so I tend to not just focus on the money but having a simple life, creates space for relationships and sets the bar for a lot of other things so yeah man that was an easy one yeah that's a good point Now I feel like dumb.

15:53 So I'm glad to hold on to my Joker card. So yeah. Yeah. Okay. Now, number eight, Mother Teresa or Martin Luther King Jr. Yeah, man. I'm going to use the Joker card on that one because kind of the two voices, I mean, obviously sweet Lord Jesus, but also Mother Teresa and Martin Luther King and also Dorothy Day.

16:13 I mean, those are folks that I really feel like I listen to and almost can hear, you know, their voices and inspiration, especially in this moment. And between Martin Luther King and Mother Teresa, especially, I think there's the Mother Teresa's mission was the missionaries of charity. Und es ist oft über compassion und love.

16:37 Und ich denke, in ein viel deeperer Sinne, als wir denken, als nur brokering resources. Aber real relationships und love und compassion. Und also, ich denke, Dr. King helps um. With a different piece of that, which is, you know, I think of his line about the Good Samaritan story in the Gospel when he says, we're all called to be the Good Samaritan, but after you lift so many people out of the ditch, you start to say, maybe we need to do something about the whole road to Jericho so people don't keep landing in the ditch.

17:07 But both of those are, they're not, this is not a binary, you know, like you can hold them together. And in fact, I think we have to, and I see both of those in Jesus too, you know, a call to love and compassion. Und auch ein call zu konfrontieren, die Systeme und Structures und Dinge, die Menschen, die Menschen, die Leben zu verlieren. Ja.

17:29 Und das führt uns eigentlich zu unserem Thema für heute. Aber da ist eine weitere Frage. Oh, ja, ja. Einen effective anti-gun legislation oder enden die Death Penalty? Hmm. Ja. Joka's gone, so. Ja, I mean, I'm going to kind of like, I'm going to sort of dodge this a little bit by saying that I think that the legislation is just one piece of gun violence.

18:06 Like the comprehensive work that we've got to do around gun violence, it is massively important. But ending the death penalty is vague enough. I can say like, I'm all in on that. And I think that the reason that the death penalty is so important, even in countries where it's been abolished for a lot of years, is that it's bigger than just a social issue.

18:28 I think the death penalty raises a lot of other questions about theology and why Jesus died and how big is God's grace? Is anybody beyond redemption? You know, are kind of clinging to this mythology that violence will heal the wounds of violence. So I think we see that in some of the other things we're going to talk about.

18:54 Our addiction to guns, our addiction to the death penalty, to militarism and war, all kind of are under this same framework that I think contradicts Jesus and betrays Jesus, which is that violence will heal the wounds of violence. Okay. So, abolishing the death penalty. I'm going to work on the guns, too, but not just legislatively. We'll do it in all facets.

19:21 All facets, yeah. That was a good time, and I did okay getting through it. We used my joker card once, so we're good, yeah. And I feel like people got to go to Nigeria. What's your stand for? Where are you from? And all of that. Okay, Shane, let's go one step back, because we're talking about political community. That's the section.

19:45 Und da ist ein Quote von der Preface von diesem Sektion, wo John Wesley ist quoted. Und ich will das. Und dann ask ich dir eine Frage, eine mehr general Frage, über was du tun. John Wesley, »Love is the fulfilling of the law, the end of the commandment. Very excellent things are spoken of love. It is the essence, the spirit, the life of all virtue.

20:11 It is not only the first and great command, Aber es ist auch die commandments, all die commandments in one. Wassover things are just, wassover things are pure, wassover things are amiable. Amiable? Is that how you pronounce it? If there be any virtue, if there be any praise, they are all compromised in this one word, love.

20:37 So, my first question would be, what role does love play in your activism for the different injustices that you are passionate about? I mean, there's not much more to say than love is absolutely fundamental in everything that we do. And one of the surest things that we can say about God is that God is love.

21:05 Und wenn wir Gott lieben, dann wir nicht nur unsere Freunde, und unsere Freunde, aber wir auch unsere Enemies. Und wir lieben die Menschen, die nicht uns wieder lieben. So, wenn Jesus sagt, all die Laws summed up unter this, love, Gott, love your neighbor. when he says that they will know that you are Christians by your love.

21:29 It's so fundamental to what we think. I like how Sister Barbara Brown Taylor, she says, in the end, our theology, our religion, our faith should ultimately make us more loving. And she says, in the end, if I have to choose between loving my neighbor and loving my theology, then I'm going to choose to love my neighbor because God never called me to love my theology.

21:59 So, I mean, that's a really good question, though, because there's a lot of versions of Christianity that are not bearing the fruit of love. It's not making people more loving. And in fact, there's some versions of theology that are so toxic that they're deadly. They destroy life. So I think there's beautiful life-giving versions of Christianity and also, Really twisted, hurtful versions of Christianity. And Jesus knew that.

22:30 I mean, his harshest language, like brood of vipers, was not for people at the fringes of faith, but it was the religious people, you know, who were hurting other folks, who were using religion as a weapon. And I mean, those are the folks he said, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom ahead of you. Und er sagt, du gehst auf Land und See auf ein einziges Convert zu machen, aber dann hast du sie so aus die Schmerz des Helles.

22:59 Ich glaube, das ist ein realer Dank an, ich glaube, das unser Fakt, dass wir uns einfachen sind, dass wir ein Kind oder Laufen sind. Und wir wissen, was wir Gott ist. Das ist auch, was wir Gott ist. Aber es ist auch in Korinthien. Wir sehen, dass Gott ist, was Patient und Kind und nicht selbst-Centered.

23:20 Und so, wenn etwas ist, dass es ein paar Fragen wir müssen, eine ist, ist es, wie Christ? Weil die Worten Christian ist, Christ-like. Und die andere ist, ist es loving? Das Version von Christianity, kann es passen die Zinf-Test von Liebe? Ich glaube, das. So, um, just a follow-up question, because that's something that I see when I debate with, um, people where I feel like they have a toxic theology and hurting people.

23:55 Um, they come on and always like to say, yeah, love is also telling someone when they're wrong and when they are sinning. And then they quote John 7 and say you know this woman that was caught in adultery, nobody talks about the man by the way but the woman is the problem here right, like how can we, do you have like when you had those kind of conversations.

24:22 They call that love when they call someone out normally not very kindly in my opinion how can we distinct that or tell them like this is not really love Aber ich würde sagen, das ist also love. Der Paradox ist, dass sie nicht so gut wie du... Calling them out on it. And so I think literally to love our neighbor as ourself is treat others like you would like to be treated.

24:56 Do you like it when I tell you you're wrong? Even if you don't agree with me. But I think that there's something more important than being right, and that is being loving and kind. And we see both of them in Jesus. I mean, you don't have to choose between these, but even someone like Billy Graham, who, you know, this, you know, iconic American evangelist, who I don't agree on how he navigated everything.

25:22 But one of the things that he said was, it's God's job to judge. It's our, it's God's job to judge. It's the Holy Spirit's job to convict. And it's our job to love. That's Billy Graham, right? God's job to judge, the Spirit's job to convict, and our job to love. And when we mix those up, I think we begin to step outside of our role.

25:51 Like we begin to act like God. We think that someone else needs us to convict them or tell them right from wrong. And I mean, when people say things like, you know, love the sinner, hate the sin, Jesus never said that. You know, Jesus said, love everybody and hate the sin that's inside of you. Like work on the log in your own eye.

26:15 Und über und über we see Jesus consistently teaching that we should work on the contradictions, the paradoxes, the struggle in our own hearts and that begins to give us some credibility and integrity that we can earn the right to accompany others and to speak truth into their lives in a loving way undividend.

26:36 So, yeah, I mean, I'm not, I think that, you know, we don't need to overthink it. I think when you even just read that passage of Corinthians about keeping no record of wrongs, you know, and these things that like, this is what love is like, this is what God is like. When you look at the fruit of the Spirit, right, this is the, you know, what Scripture sort of says, this is, if we are near to God and we're, you know, the Spirit of God is living in us and through us, then this should be the evidence of it and the fruit.

27:05 Und sie sind Dinge wie Liebe, Liebe, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Gentleness, Faithfulness, Self-Control. Ich eigentlich pray die Dinge ein, weil es ein. In the hypothetical situation with this person, or maybe it's a real situation, with the person you're talking about, I think that's the fruit of real faith is kindness and goodness and gentleness and patience.

27:30 And a lot of people have the right theology in their heads, but the wrong heart. And I think some people are both wrong, but I think what we're trying to do is get our hearts right. And hopefully we can get our heads right too. But yeah, it's not enough just to have good theology and be mean to people or be condemning or there's lots of forms, I think, of self-righteousness that Jesus kind of called out.

28:00 And it's not just conservatives. I think progressive leaning folks have their own version of self-righteousness and cancel culture and theological policing and all that stuff. So the self-righteousness is really toxic. And there's a powerful story that Jesus told of the two folks that go up to pray. One's a tax collector and one's a religious person, a Pharisee.

28:26 And the religious guy stands up and says, thank you, I'm not like these people. And the tax collector just can't lift his head to heaven, it says, and says, God have mercy on me, a sinner. Und das ist die Posture das ist eigentlich, celebrated in that story und so whoever we are we shouldn't be that dude that is pointing fingers and saying thank you that I'm not like those people and again I think that there are versions of that on the left and the right of kind of thank you that I'm not like them but more, God have mercy on me is where we start, Ja, ich glaube, die moment we, no matter which side we are, we think we are right 100% on what we're saying and believing, that leads us into this kind of judgmental and canceling out people who are

29:25 not part of that. And that's just, you know, against what the gospel of love is actually telling us, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's... Head to my favorite topic, Christian Nationalism. I think you mentioned in our talk when you were here at Eastern Washington University, that you don't like that term or we shouldn't use it too much, if I'm correct, about Christian Nationalism? Yeah.

29:59 The label or something, right? Well, I think, you know, we're naming a contradiction. I think that it's, I mean, you can't be a Christian fascist, At least I don't think that those terms are compatible. And I don't think that Christian nationalism is something that is Christlike or that I think it's a theological distortion.

30:21 I mean, I would even say it's a heresy of like authentic Christian faith. The idea of America first, right, that quickly begins to either implicitly or explicitly presume that our people matter more than someone on the other side of the southern border or a child in Gaza. And I think the radical love of the gospel is that the Bible doesn't say God so loved the world or God so loved America.

30:48 The Bible says God so loved the world. And this idea, the concept that we're to be born again flies in the face of the kind of the smallness of nationalism and says that, you know, exactly that to be born again means I'm going to love bigger than nationality. I'm going to love bigger than biology. Jesus said a lot of things that challenge the kind of narrow-mindedness that my own biological family, the people related to me, genetically matter more than someone else in the world.

31:22 And so Jesus is kind of expanding that love to all people in all places. And I think that's why nationalism is so problematic. Yeah, yeah. It's also like just recently... I just can't, I don't understand that, but like we have this situation that here are Christian immigrants getting picked up by ICE and putting into detentions, maybe concentration camps, we'll call that, beating and all of that.

31:52 Und sie sind christian so you would technically als christian nation sagen sie sind brothers and sisters, but they don't say this but then something happens in africa where they suddenly have to step in and say oh there are christians persecuted our brothers and sisters we need to take care of that as americans yeah you're naming a really important, i think certainly a contradiction maybe even a hypocrisy right is that.

32:21 Movements of evangelicals have been deeply concerned about persecuted Christians around the world. I mean, there's entire organizations like Open Doors and, you know, these different groups that work with persecuted Christians. And I care about persecuted Christians, to be really direct, you know. But there's a deep hypocrisy in saying, we care about you as long as you stay over there.

32:43 You know, the minute someone wants to immigrate here from Syria or Haiti or, South Sudan or whatever it is like that becomes, then there's the hypocrisy when it comes to things like our immigration policies which we are now seeing, historic lows that we are not going to let people into this country and sometimes overt racism that we will allow white immigrants from South Africa to come here or whatever I mean it's not they're saying the quiet things out loud right now right so but the fact is like, If we care about persecuted Christians, then we should certainly be deeply concerned about Gaza and Palestine right now.

33:29 I mean, there's only a couple hundred Christians left, and this is one of the most historic. I mean, I think we should care about other people, too, you know, Muslims and other. But for those that began with, like, these are our Christian family, like, these are my brothers and sisters, then we should certainly reflect that compassion when it comes to our policies on immigration and refugees and asylum seekers.

33:57 And we should be the quickest people to combat the xenophobia and the fear of immigrants that the folks that are... I mean, there's a beautiful scripture that says perfect love casteth out fear. So I think we really got to like... And even now in the United States, A lot of folks internationally don't know that we have really, really regulated vetting mechanisms for letting people into this country.

34:27 Refugees and asylum seekers are particular categories that there's a process for getting in. So a lot of this is just smokescreening about illegal immigrants and things. Und was viele von uns wollen ist eine common-sense pass-to-citizensivität, ways we can invite people in, um... Und eine andere Sache, das ist interessant für die Leute in Deutschland und in anderen Ländern, vielleicht, ist, dass wir die größte Zahl der Immigranten und Refugee in den USA haben, unter den Republikanen, und unsere lowesten Zahlen haben, unter den currenten Administration von Donald Trump.

35:10 Aber auch Bidens und die letzten zwei Presidents haben, die sich in den letzten Jahren restricting. Und beide Parteien haben, ich meine, es ist nicht equal, ich glaube, aber historisch, da haben wir conservatisten und Republicans, die sich über die Immigranten und widows und orphans und refugees und viele von ihnen, weil sie es all durchs Scripture, 2,000 verses that are calling us to care about the poor and vulnerable and the refugees and widows and orphans.

35:40 And so this shouldn't be a partisan debate because welcoming refugees and immigrants should not be a Republican thing or a Democrat thing. It should be a Jesus thing and it should be a love thing. Anybody that's going to try to love their neighbor as themselves should want to help people escaping things that we can hardly even imagine.

36:03 You know, I mean, I've met a lot of refugees that when they tell me their story, you just think, I mean, the fact that you even made it to this country and now you're being detained because we haven't created a viable path to citizenship. And there's, you know, one person told me, 10,000 people ahead of them in line in court to just make their case.

36:30 Right. This is it doesn't have to be that way. Right. Yeah, definitely. Und dann, was also new to me, dass hier, wenn du nicht ein Citizenship hast, nicht sogar eine Green Card, du kannst du noch arbeiten. Und pay taxes, but you're not eligible for Social Security or Medicare. Yeah. And so they pay into the system, which in Germany is different.

36:52 Like, if you're a refugee in Germany, you're not allowed to work. Because the idea is, if you're an asylum seeker, that after everything is okay in your country, you go back, right? So you can't even work. But here they do, they integrate, they do everything they have to do, and then they still get detained or still get, you know, treated like they're just not humans.

37:13 It's just terrible. Okay, I just want to read that little excerpt regarding Christian nationalism. We have something in our social principles sort of touching on this, and it says, We reject the practice of using the church for political purposes or coercing religious individuals to support the state.

37:38 It's a statement by United Methodist Church Worldwide. I'm like, okay. Read it one more time. Yeah, yeah. Re-reject the practice of using the church for political purposes. Yeah, coercing religious individuals to support the state. Can you help us to understand why are especially evangelicals and fundamentalists big fans of bringing those two together right now?

38:20 And I think they were probably for a while also saying, the government should not be involved in my church affairs. And then suddenly now, everything switches and they go to bed into bed, as you would say in German. Ja, ja, ja. Ja, eine meiner Freundin sagt, dass so viele Evangelischen Christians sind obsessed mit von jemandem im Bett, aber sie sind in Bett mit Caesar und Donald Trump.

38:47 Aber ja, ich denke, das ist über Macht. Und die Ironie ist, eine der clearest Dinge, die du sehen in der Leben, in der Jesus, in zu. Fall to the temptation of worldly power. I mean, it's literally what he faces in the kind of gospel temptations, the power of this world. And I heard someone say, if you think that Jesus made all the wrong choices in the desert, you might be a Christian nationalist.

39:27 Because it's exactly what the church is going after are the same things that Jesus rejected as coming straight from the devil himself, right? So, and Jesus said things like, what good is it to gain the whole world and lose your soul? And we see a lot of evangelicals in particular that are obsessed with worldly power.

39:49 And this is where the veneer of Christian nationalism becomes really, it becomes really clear that we're just using Christianity as a means to an end. Und wenn du wirklich auf das kalt hast, es beginnt zu verändern Jesus mit Amerika als Gott's messianic force in der Welt. Und da gibt es wirklich, ich glaube, die Logik-Gymnastik und die wirkliche Schwierigkeiten.

40:20 Aber das ist das so, dass du diese Sprache, dass du diese Sprache, die Sprache des Geistigen, die Sprache des Geistigen, These things that are so fundamental to America that they're not just American mythology, but they're actually theology. And some of it came even from the papacy and the papal bulls and stuff that literally began to cast America as the new Israel, right?

40:48 And the city on the hill and all this. So like... So, like, there's a lot of folks that would say, we're trying to change the world. And the question is not just how do you, you know, do we want to change the world? But like, how do we stay faithful to Jesus and the way of Jesus in the world? And Jesus didn't go to the centers of power.

41:13 He, from the moment he was born in a manger, because there was no room in the inn, come on, somebody, Until he was executed on a cross, shows us God's love and solidarity with those who are powerless and who are marginalized. And he's constantly in conflict with the powerful. And so this, you know, I think this is so important, but, you know, it's also about fear.

41:41 It's about things like scarcity, that, you know, there's not enough and there's this fear that, you know, immigrants are replacing us or that, you know, it's very self-interested, self-centered, you know, a lot. And there's no other way to explain it, you know, but some of that's fear. And it's no coincidence that a lot of this kind of new manifestations of nationalism have come after, and it's white supremacy, to be really frank, have come after the first black president, Barack Obama, in the U.S., and the Black Lives Matter movement, this kind of national awakening in our country that kind of has different, I think, extensions around the world or expressions around the world.

42:29 Und da gibt es ein, was man nennt sich called, ein backlash, dieses Backlash of white supremacy in the face of any black progress that begins to see it as a threat. Und so dann we see this overt rise in hate groups, white supremacy. Und ich denke, Dan, in many ways, Donald Trump hat unleashed Trump, Neu emboldened those forces. They were there.

43:00 You know, the old saying is like racism didn't get worse. It just got recorded. You know, it got let loose. So some of this was buried beneath the surface. But even, you know, erasing history, we think of Dr. Martin Luther King and there's people that are fighting to get him out of our history books.

43:18 One of the most iconic, you know, civil rights leaders in our country. So that stuff matters. You know, the fact that we've erected monuments to people who were on the wrong side of racial justice. I mean, literally in my home state of Tennessee, as much as I love it, things about it and the people there, it was the hotbed for the Ku Klux Klan.

43:44 And until just a few years ago, we had a statue, a bust, you know, the shoulders and head of Nathan Bedford Forrest, the founder of the KKK in the U.S. Or in the state capital of Tennessee. And people had to fight hard just to get that statue removed, just as we see people, you know, kind of this is a battle over history.

44:09 And there are people that say, you know, it's not about hate, it's about heritage. But to be really honest, it's a heritage of hate and it's a heritage of white supremacy that says some people are more valuable than others. And I think even in our founding documents, as much as people idolize America, the people that wrote All Men Are Created Equal owned human beings as property and called Native Americans savages in the founding documents of America.

44:47 And so we counted black folks as three-fifths human. So all of this is like, you know, this is also the true history of the United States. And yeah, and so, yeah. Es ist crazy. The statue thing is also, I had one time a conversation with someone about it, a debate, like, heritage was the argument. And I said, so do you think Germany should put up a Hitler statue?

45:13 Yes. Right. And say, it's our heritage. So we just, you know. I mean, it doesn't make sense. Right. And the truth sets us free. We have to remember history so that we don't repeat it. Right. But you're exactly right. The way that you remember the Holocaust is not by putting up statues of Nazis, it's by remembering the names and the horror and even the theology, the complicity of the church, right?

45:39 The way that Jesus, I mean, that Jesus was twisted by Hitler. And, you know, one of my mentors said, when you twist the cross, you get a swastika. And that's exactly what he did. He twisted the Christian faith in order to justify his own hatred in his own infatuation with power. That's a good quote. If you twist the cross, you get a swastika.

46:05 Ich meine, für mich, wir sehen hier, wie das ist, wie das passiert. Es sind die gleichen Schritte, in der Art. Und Hitler war auch sicher, wir müssen uns zu haben, die Churches' need, und wir werden Teil davon haben. Es ist eine Geschichte, die wir in seminary gelernt haben. Before die General Conference der United Methodist Church und Delegation aus Deutschland would go there, Hitler actually donated a new organ to one of the United Methodist churches in Germany, and because the Methodist church was suppressed by Lutherans and so they went to the General Conference and said, Hitler is great, he sees us, he supports us, we finally are sort of getting too close to being equal to Lutherans.

46:54 So he knew exactly what he was doing, pampering a worldwide church to let them know, yeah, I'm in support of you guys. Yeah, yeah, Lord help us. Yeah, that's, yeah. Okay, maybe that leads us to the question, what do we do now? So the civil disobedience is also a section in the social principles. And there it says, we affirm the right of individuals, communities and organizations to engage in non-violent civil disobedience when faced with unjust laws or social practices.

47:35 Such actions should be guided by love, compassion, and the teachings of Jesus. Hmm. Ja, ja. Amen to that. I love that putting some of these things on paper makes them feel official. It also, I think, makes you think through what that looks like. And the rich tradition of civil disobedience. I mean, we look at Moses' birth was an act of civil disobedience to Pharaoh's order.

48:08 So was Jesus', right? Herod was trying to kill the children in the way. We look at the prophets, they were jailed, they were persecuted, killed. Dan Berrigan, one of the really great voices when it comes to this tradition in the U.S., they burnt the draft cards during the Vietnam War. He had his brother, and Dan Berrigan used to call it divine obedience.

48:39 Und das ist ein interessante wie wir denken über das we will be obedient to God even wenn die laws of this land und die edicts of tyrant die, sind, sind aus der Synche mit Liebe und aus der Synche mit Gott's desire für everyone zu flourish. So, ja, da ist such eine rich Tradition von dem, dass, ich denke, nicht mehr von uns anyway, würde sagen, dass die Underground Railroad und die Bewegung des Resistance to Hitler, the many expressions of that, right?

49:18 So the fall of apartheid, I mean, so many of these like different movements and there was an element of civil disobedience that was a part of that. Rosa Parks just refusing to sit in the back of the bus, right? Like those things that just sort of kept pushing for God's liberation and equality. So, St. Augustine said, An unjust law is no law at all.

49:47 And it's our duty to disobey the bad laws as much as it's our duty to uphold the good ones. Now, people often bring up Romans 13 and other verses that say we're to be subordinate to the state. And I think there's different ways to do that. One is by obeying the good laws, Und die andere ist, dass wir über die Schmerzen und Willen über die Konsequenzen für Disobeying the Bad Laws sind.

50:14 Ich denke, das ist wie wir die Bad Laws geben. Wenn wir mit Medikationen zu Irak in der Irak war, in 2003, das war 2003, wenn ich da war, wir über 10 Jahre in Jäu für taking basic Medikationen zu Irak. And we did eventually go to court. But what it did was it exposed those laws. And some of these were doctors and nurses, medical folks that were taking medication.

50:43 And we can pull on our faith, which says, you know, in Romans, it says, if your enemy is hungry, feed them. If they are thirsty, give them something to drink. Certainly we can presume that if they're in need of medicine, we would take that. And so I think we can make that argument and still be very biblical and very grounded in it.

51:03 And Martin Luther King is a great example of that. When he first went to jail, he said, I was a little troubled at first, but then I looked at history and saw what good company I have. Start with Jesus and most of the disciples and half the prophets. So our job is to be faithful to Jesus. Our goal is never to get arrested. Our goal is to be faithful and to expose injustice um, through these means of direct action and by, um, exposing, you know, the bad laws and the sanctions, so rich tradition in that, yeah.

51:41 So, to, to go a little bit deeper on that question, um, because we also experienced in Germany a move to the right, and the right party there was, like, really, like, um, uh, what's the right word, like. Getting close to Nazi language, and is really, um, sort of supporting this What does Christian civil disobedience, or let's call it divine obedience, look like in our country today compared to Martin Luther King or Dietrich Bonhoeffer?

52:15 Or is it civil? What would you like? Tell us, like, what is the way of doing this? Well, I sure don't think that it's, you know, my role to prescribe, you know, what it looks like for you all. But there are some really core principles, right, that are, I think, universal. And those are things like, I mean, if you study Martin Luther King, it's often called King's Six Principles of Nonviolence.

52:40 I mean, many of those are rooted in faith because he was not just an activist. He was also a pastor and a reverend, you know. Und so die Idee von non-violenz, dass wir gegen, wir kämpfen gegen principalities und powers, nicht people, das ist eine wichtige Sache, dass wir uns nicht zurückkehren. Und Dr. King sagte, nicht nur sind wir nicht zu töten, wir sind nicht zu töten, wir sind nicht zu lieben.

53:06 Wir sind zu lieben. So was das Liebe, das ist gefährlich und das ist non-kompromising in unseren convictions, but that leaves room for someone to change their own heart. So I think that is where the foundation of love is so important. I personally don't believe that there's any way to reconcile violence with the Christian faith.

53:33 It's why I'm against the death penalty and concerned about gun violence and all of the different issues of life, militarism and war. But it's also why I think our means has to reflect our end, that as activists, we can't build a better world by killing people. Like you don't build a peaceful world by killing people.

53:57 And we would say that of our state, but I would also say it's why we need to speak out against things like even the death of Charlie Kirk, right? I don't celebrate his death, nor do I celebrate his message, right? But I think we need to denounce violence and hatred every time it raises its ugly head. Yeah.

54:20 Cool. So true. One last thing, and then I have to let you go, unfortunately. Yeah, sorry. This hour flew by. I spent too much time talking about the circus. We'll have to do it again sometime. So one last section about the death penalty. That's really close to your heart, so I would like to get at least a couple minutes on that.

54:42 So the Methodist statement is, we oppose the death penalty and urge its abolition. Capital Punishment denies the power of Christ to redeem, restore, and transform all human beings. Ja, bro. I mean, it doesn't get much better than that. That's a United Methodist mic drop right there. You know, like I dropped the microphone.

55:04 I quote that all the time. I think it's one of the best, simplest and best denominational statements. And fundamentally, there are many reasons to oppose the death penalty. I think it has a kind of eerie and horrific legacy of lynching and racism and all of these things, especially in the United States.

55:28 The same states that held on to slavery the longest have held on to the death penalty. Wherever lynchings of black folks was happening 100 years ago is where executions are happening today. But in the end, it's also a theological crisis. 95% of executions in the U.S. Are happening in the Bible Belt. And wherever Christians... This is so...

55:58 Troubling. Where Christians are in power is where the death penalty continues to hold on. So literally, if Christians decided to abolish the death penalty in America, it would be done overnight. From the Supreme Court to governors, senators, all of those who have the power over decisions, es ist overwhelmingly christians because there's not much else that we have to hold on to justify the death penalty it's not a deterrent of crime it costs more money than the alternatives one thing after another most of the world has abolished the death penalty.

56:38 And yet it's the christians that we're up against and that's why this is a theological crisis and why the death penalty is bigger than just the death penalty. I'm fighting because I believe no one is beyond redemption. I believe the core message of Jesus is, I mean, even for people that go, that person's sick.

56:57 My response is, didn't Jesus come for the sick? I mean, he himself said, I've come not for the healthy, but for the sick. I've come to redeem sinners, not for the righteous. So I also know how broken our system is. And this is the last thing I'd say, Damien, is one of the encouraging things is There's a lot of conservatives that are now thinking, like, how much do we trust our government?

57:19 You know, because we know how broken the system is. For every nine executions that we've had in the U.S., there's been one exoneration. It's actually eight now. Every eight executions, there's been one exoneration. So one person that proved their innocence and is now out of jail. And you think, like, what if that were the track record on airplanes, right? Like, that one crashed for every eight that took off, right?

57:46 Like, we would be like, this is messed up. Like, let's stop flying, you know. But, you know, so I think it's so important that it... It is also about healing, right? And you can be against the death penalty and not be against justice. Not think that, you know, murder shouldn't have consequences or something, right?

58:06 But I know people that are innocent that were convicted and sentenced to die. And they're out now. They've been able to prove it. I know other people that they did horrific things. I had one friend who was executed. He killed his wife brutally. Und er hat die Jahre in der Jäule zu tun, was er zu tun, was er zu tun, was er hat er. Er hat sich mit einem courageous relationships zu versuchen, zu heal diese Wunsch.

58:36 Er hat sich deeply committed zu seiner faith. Und dann die der Jäulein hat er und I habe another Freund er ordained. Er ist an ordained minister on death row. Er ist so good for the Kingdom of God to then think that this is the The best justice that we could do is that this now ordained minister be killed?

58:59 It doesn't make any sense. So, yeah, and these things are connected, right? The last thing I'll say, Damien, is when the early Christians, when you look at them, They were so consistent in their advocacy for life, without exception. And they did care about abortion. They also cared about the gladiatorial games because they thought it was idolatry, right?

59:23 They cared about every manifestation of violence. And Cyprian, one of the great bishops of the early church, he said something really interesting, and I'll say this to close. He said, isn't it interesting when a person, when an individual kills another individual? We all know that it's evil and wrong and we condemn it as we should.

59:41 And he said, but why do we sanctify it when the state does it and sometimes does it in mass, right? We somehow say this is justice or this is God's will. And Cyprian said, it is wrong to kill no matter who you are. Whether you're a criminal or a governor or prime minister or senator or president, Like it is always wrong to kill.

1:00:07 And I think it's that kind of consistency that should fuel us to advocate for life with the conviction that every person is made in the image of God without exception. And, you know, the book I just finished last year, Rethinking Life, is, you know, about exactly that. It's connecting a lot of the dots of these issues and going like our framework, our foundation should be that every person is made in the image of God.

1:00:34 Und ist so sacred, dass das schulden, dass wir uns als Advokates für Leben nicht nur pro-BIRTH, aber auch wirklich pro-LIFE in jedem Sinne des Wortes. One pastor said, from the womb to the tomb. From the womb to the tomb. Yeah, not enough to be pro-birth. We need to be pro-life and not just see children born, but see them cared for and advocated for. Yeah, man.

1:01:02 Well, thanks for the conversation, man. And I am grateful to the Methodist Church to continue to kind of lean into and press on these issues and to give language that others can use, theological. Yeah, it's really like a lot of pastors I'm talking to right now about it, they're like. Yeah, we have to use it more, because there's a lot of a compass in this document.

1:01:25 It's not a law for us, right? But I can be against gun violence. I can be against death penalty based on the Worldwide United Methodist Church's statement. And I'm in a safe position to say that. Before that, I might have been the only person in my church, if I'm in Tennessee, in the Methodist Church. I could be the only one to think that way, right?

1:01:48 Yeah. And the reason that the Church, especially in the early councils, the Council of Nicaea, is that we were almost exclusively concerned with the doctrines, which are important. Like, orthodoxy is where we get the word right thinking. But we miss the whole part of this, which is right living, which orthopraxis, the right practices of our faith.

1:02:19 Be sure to little Germans, we are so much in our head in theology, it simply misses out the part. Und so, I think even as we craft statements, even as we do our profession. Like when we profess our faith and we say things like the Apostles' Creed, that's wonderful, but let's start to craft new declarations of faith that include advocating for life and standing against violence and living simply, right?

1:02:49 All of these things, like the kind of radical love of God that kind of contradicts the nationalism, right? I think we need to keep crafting those statements and keep professing them. So some of us have said we need a new council here in the U.S. And we need to create some new declarations of our faith that kind of name the intersections of right theology and right practice. So keep at it, y'all.

1:03:18 And hopefully I'll get over there to Germany again. I've been there many times. Hope to get over there soon, man. But keep at it, bro. Thank you so much, Shane, for being with us. And also, I think, challenging us today a bit to think about our life and how we really live out our faith. And as I said, we put the websites you mentioned and the books in the show notes so people can look them up and maybe read.

1:03:42 And then hopefully from reading, reflecting to living. Maybe it would be a good way for us today. Friends, we will be back next week as we're continuing exploring the political community section of the United Methodist Church Principles and what it means to love God and neighbor in a world, aching for justice.

1:04:03 And then until then, I would just say walk humbly with your God, love, mercy, and what's the other one? Act justly. Yeah, you felled on that. Just kidding. Okay, thank you guys. It was great with you, and Thank you again Shane for being here with us Absolutely bro, yeah, thank y'all for listening.