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Heather Gay joins Lala to talk about leaving her faith in a very public way, finding love again after a decade on her own, and discovering that sometimes the best healing comes from laughing through tears.
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Hello gorgeous, it's Lala Kent. Welcome to Untraditionally Lala. Hello gorgeous, welcome back to Untraditionally Lala, the bonus episode that I am so excited about because we have one of my most favorite humans. I am like the moment she entered this world of the Bravo universe that we're all obsessed with.
I was fucking captivated. I have Heather freaking gay.
Welcome.
What an introduction.
Thank you very much.
People always say, oh, you're so nice. I'm like, I'm really not that nice. I'm just honest and excited.
Okay.
So I want to give you All of the things.
So you are at this point an OG cast member of Real Housewives of Salt Lake. We're going to get into that. You have three incredibly beautiful and smart daughters, which you did by yourself.
So praising you on that.
Founded a successful medical spa, beauty lab, and laser, and is a New York Times bestselling author of Bad Mormon. And my most— this is— I cannot believe Tripp is in the room.
I'm kind of freaking out, you guys.
So after marrying into Mormon royalty with Frank William, Billy Gay III, and divorcing around 2014, 2015, Heather is finally giving love another chance with her new boyfriend, Tripp, who was seen.
On this season. And you are looking like a host, Nick. Good for us. How do you feel?
I mean— first of all, it's so cool to like have trip film with me.
You know what I mean? Like I did it alone for.
Seven years and I didn't realize what it felt like to kind of go in with like an ally, you know, like to walk into like a dinner party or an event and like, just.
Have someone by your side.
Like I, I truly didn't know what that meant because you know how it's always shifting sand with your castmates. Like it just, you never expect the unexpected. And I was so grateful to him for filming with me. I know it was like not, you know, he obviously did it because we had.
No option, but it was fun and it was great.
And it's really cool to watch it back and see like what I look like in love and dare I say happy because I don't think I saw that, you know, the.
Last six seasons.
So how long were you single for?
Oh, 10 years.
10 years?
Yeah.
He's like my first partner. boyfriend really ever.
Like, cause I didn't really date in high school, you know, I had boyfriends, but not like adult boyfriends, you know?
Yeah.
And then I got married, my first boyfriend I married, and then I got divorced and just never really had a boyfriend after that.
Do you think you were afraid to go out and date? Like, what was the reasoning for, for you to not being in a relationship for 10 years.
I mean, there's so many excuses that I told myself and that I like think about now and like looking back, like now that I'm like, why did I deprive myself of this for so long?
Yeah.
And I think the truth is, I don't think, I think there wasn't a scene for me.
I was still cosplaying as Mormon. Okay.
And I wasn't going to like, how can I have a boyfriend that I'm like, that's Mormon. That's not even having a boyfriend. You just have to marry him if you want to sleep with them.
You know what I mean?
Like there was no world in between where there were people that would like be like, I just, there was no options for me really to date.
Like I didn't know who I was or what I wanted. So how was I going to like find someone that would want to date that?
And also I was a single mom with three kids, like had zero bandwidth for it. And then I got the show and then I was starting the business. So it was like, I was barely keeping afloat. And so that's why I think I would just hook up when I could.
Totally.
But there was no space in my heart or brain, I think, for love.
I relate to that a lot. I have been single for five years now. And a lot of people say, you should go out, you should date. And maybe I'm just protecting my heart. I like to say I'm protecting my peace because I have two babies. My youngest is two. I have a five and a half year old. And like you said, I don't feel like I have the bandwidth to take on another person's wants and needs.
And any extra time.
That I have, I'd rather sprinkle it to the people that are in my life. And I don't know if you ever felt this way in the 10 years.
I am so comfortable as a third wheel. Yeah.
You forget that you even are one.
Yeah.
You just show up.
You're like, oh, what?
Yeah.
Is this a couples thing?
Like, I think it would be very weird to walk into a space and, like, have my person.
I mean, I think I got so comfortable with it that, like, I was in that groove, too.
Yeah.
You know?
And I wonder, I'm like, is there or was there for you ever a point where you're like, I'm becoming so hyper-independent, I may end up by myself? I.
I don't think I ever hoped for love again.
Like I really just kind of, I think like the only version of love and success was like a Mormon forever family. So when I got divorced, I think like a huge part of my identity and like anything I wanted about that.
World just buried it, crushed it.
So like I never thought I would really, I think I probably just thought I'd end up alone.
Yeah.
I don't think I ever, I didn't think about the future, Lala. I didn't think about anything. I didn't hope or wonder. I just thought, get my girls to college, get my girls like happy.
And then like.
And then you'll focus on you.
Crawl in a hole and die.
I mean, you know, but like just so hyper focused on the kids and like just getting through like survival is a lot of it.
You know, I didn't think about what it would look like in the end.
I have to say it is very refreshing to see you talk about motherhood because I think you talk about motherhood in a way where you obviously love and adore your girls, but you've done your job.
They're out of the house.
I love when you talk about deadbolting the door and like life is for you now. And I think a lot of women feel that way, especially as single moms once they've done their job and they feel guilt. And to see you just smiling, being like, I did it. And now it's time to take a moment for me. I fucking love you, Heather.
Thank you for saying that.
I mean, I do feel guilt and I get a lot of societal shame, but I feel it.
Like, I can't lie. Like, I want them... to feel the drive to do it on their own.
You know, it's, it's like, I, it was the chapter of my life and I was in it. Like, and I don't have any regrets about the mom.
I was like, I put them first.
I did everything, you know, and I feel like I left it all on the field and they, they are strong, independent women.
They can do it, you know? So go do it.
So go do it and have fun.
And like, yeah, you talk about like, go live the life that you're supposed to live when you're a girl leaving home and.
Like have a drink.
Yeah.
If you find a cute boy, don't just marry him.
Fuck around.
Yeah.
Fuck around.
No, for real. Like live all of it. Be so wild that I have to like bail you out of jail, you know? Like, just, like, for disorderly conduct, nothing that'll stick. Nothing crazy.
You know, come on.
But, like, make your mistakes now when I can, when I'm here to help you, you know, pick yourself up and start a new life. Reinvent yourself a million times before you're 30. Don't wait till you're, like, 40, like me, to, like, figure out who you are and what you want, you know?
Yeah.
I also wonder, like, with the way that you have.
moved since leaving the church so i don't know if you know this about me my.
Dad are you crying no okay i just like got emotional thinking about them.
Oh you know yeah this is the boss i'm just kidding.
Well that's not it because i literally cry every day i always say people should have a laugh a day and a cry a day.
Right this is best emotion laughter through tears right yes yeah i'm just in it with you yeah Well, I feel that way about my babies.
Yeah.
You know, and you blink and it's done.
Yeah.
And I think that's another reason why I have.
Chosen, and I guess not chosen, to stay single because they will get to an age where they are off flying even before they're ready, right? It's happening very quickly. Like 12 years old, I'm seeing these kids at the mall.
I'm like, where's your mother?
Right. So I'm like, I want to be here for these moments because I'm blinking and time is passing and that takes me out.
Right?
Totally. So you are so felt and seen, and I love that you got emotional. My dad was born and raised a true blue Mormon, right? Got married to his first wife in the temple. At 22, they got divorced. That's when he left the church. The first thing he said he did was went to the place with the bars on the windows that was where the devil danced, which was a bar.
Ha ha ha!
Yeah. And he was like, and the devil forbidden place on the planet.
Exactly. And he was like, and the devil wasn't in there.
Just a bunch of guys watching a football game and having some drinks. Like it was nothing like what he was told. So he marries my mom. Um, my mom was an army brat. So she moved all over the world. Um, and we were not raised Mormon, but even though he left the church at 22, which was well before I even entered the world, um, he still had these little things that would pop up where I'm like, you're feeling guilt about this. Do you feel that even now? Or have you released it because you've spoken about it so much?
No, I feel it still now. Like it still frames a lot of my thoughts and.
I have to like actively think, oh, that's like not what you really think. That's just what you've been trained to react to, especially with parenting, you know, because there was just one way to parent. And I had to, luckily, I think I left the church with enough years left that I could correct it right when they were teenagers you know so I didn't have to like instill in them all the guilt and shame that I felt growing up but yeah it's like imprinted on us in a way that's really really hard to deconstruct and like break down and I didn't publicly leave the church till I went on the show So like your dad is still doing after when he left at 22. Like I, you know, I left officially like seven years ago and probably belief
wise like five years ago.
Oh my gosh. So do you feel like the show has been therapeutic for you?
Yeah, totally.
Totally.
It ripped the Band-Aid off.
It forced me into my like authentic self immediately. And it forced me in, I mean, a little inside scoop. It's like, you know, I don't know. Did you film the sizzle reel of Vanderpump?
No, the show had been on for three seasons before I entered. Okay.
Okay.
So we were like, you know, origin story, like a sizzle reel thought it was going to be called Utah Untitled. And so I just was kind of balls to the wall with that. Like I just was exactly who I was.
I didn't lie one time.
Time.
I didn't do one Mormon answer, you know, like this is what I'm about. This is who I am.
And I just threw it all out there, never thinking it would go anywhere, never thinking it would be a show. And then when we got the show, I felt obligated to that girl. Like that's the girl that got the show and that's who I am. So you can't go on, like you can't switch back to your Mormon role, you know?
Right.
I thought about it. I thought, okay, fuck, you know, now I'm going to be totally exposed. Can we swear on this podcast?
Yeah, fuck yeah. You can do whatever you want on this podcast. I thought now I'm exposed.
Now it's like, I can't like pull it back in. And so that really forced me. It's like, it pushed me off the diet green board.
And like, I was all in and I was on TV. I had to like process it all as it was happening.
As I was telling my kids, I mean, I told my kids on camera and I felt like so empowered doing that like I felt like it was forcing me you know you say it on camera it's forever right it's for yeah and it held me to that and I think I'm grateful for that so I meet people all the time they're like I can't leave yet I'm left but I can't leave you know like publicly and I'm like it took something really really big to pull me out of it it took television and financial independence, and, like, all these things. So, like, for the people that just pull themselves out out of their own grit and integrity, like, I just really stand in awe of them.
I mean, that's, for me, the best part about reality TV is because you're with your friends, and although things get wonky, as we know, a production team who, you know, granted the main goal is to entertain people, but there's something amazing when... Cameras pick up and you feel comfortable and in a safe space to be who you are.
And then you're held accountable for it, right? And you feel like you owe not only yourself, but the girl who's watching, who so desperately wants out of a situation, out of her religion, and doesn't feel strong enough.
And then watching you do it and you survive, nothing happens.
That's incredible. Because I'll never know what that type of pressure feels like, right? Because I didn't grow up in it. All I know is what my dad experienced, which... felt when I was watching, it looked suffocating.
That's a great word.
Yeah.
It's a great word.
And I remember my grandmother was diagnosed with cancer and she was dying and my dad was over there and she said to him, I'm just so sad. And my dad was like, I know, I'm so sad too. And she goes, but you're sad for a different reason. I'm sad that I'm not going to be with you in heaven. And I'm like, why would you fucking say that to my dad? It is like so rude. Well, rude.
It's devastating. I mean, for your, it's Mormonism. That's what we believe. And that's like till on your deathbed, you know? Yeah.
I'm like, when he came home and said that to me, I'm like, you know that that is not true, right?
Did he?
I mean, I think, I think he was a little unsure.
And to me, I just feel like that's just like, It feels like common sense. Like, if you birth something, like, you're together forever.
Like, come on, Dad.
You know?
It's not like, well, we had this wonderful life. I raised you. But now, like, see you later. Should have paid your tithing. Exactly.
Yeah.
No.
It doesn't make any sense. Let's use logic here.
Yeah. But it's, like, deep.
It entangles itself deep in your heart. And it's hard to dis- disconnect it. What do I believe and what is true and what is a lie that I believe?
It's just confusing.
The way that you talk about it though, you're so well-spoken and I'm sure you're told this all the time and you know this, but so well-spoken that you then got a green light on the dock, on Peacock. I've been pitching forever.
The second I you know, the second that Bad Mormon was successful and I went on tour and just saw like all of the stories in my DMs and all of the people in the letters, like it was overwhelming. And I just was like, I want to be like Leah Remini. I want to do like a doc, like the Scientology. I want to like sit with people, like want to do exactly what she did. And I pitched it forever.
How nervous were you to come out with that book?
Oh, terrified.
Terrified.
I had the book deal for a year before I, like the book offer, I should say, a year before I agreed to do it. I thought I will never put my face on a cover with the word bad Mormon. Like I could never be that out loud about the shame I feel and like the fact that I'm a traitor and I've left my faith and I've betrayed all my cousins and my parents and my community and my kids' teachers and my, you know, all of my kids' friends.
Like it's just like really terrifying. And that's just on the social level of the community. But like faith-wise and doctrine-wise, like I betrayed all of these covenants I had made in the temple that like have, you know, disemboweling and death forever as the consequence forever speaking them out loud.
And not only did I speak them out loud, I wrote about.
Them in the book.
And it was like the first time it had been like written, like here's the secrets. Here's what we're all scared that we're going to be burned at the stake for. If you want to know what goes on in that secret Huge building. I'm riding it all down.
I have chills.
That just gave me chills.
It was scary. But people loved it.
Yeah.
But they loved it. But people loved it, so it's all good, man. No, but you helped a lot of people.
That's what's so terrifying is I tell my girls, there's going to come a point in time where your voice is all you have.
Nothing else.
The moment that you feel like that is silence, we got a real fucking problem on our hands. So the fact that you... I mean, a year is a long time to sit on something like that. And then you have to deal with like, I'm sure you did this all the time. Write it out, like delete.
I can't do it.
So how long all in all did it take to, from the time you got the book deal for it to come out, how long was that?
That was probably three and a half years. It was a long process.
And like compared to Good Time Girl, six months. Eternal Glow, like, nine months. And this is, like, going to be four more books. So, like, I'm going to have a book a year.
This is incredible, though.
But this isn't, like, all of my.
No, this is fiction, right?
Yeah, but this was, like, Bad Mormon was hard because it took that much to, like, say it out loud.
You know what I mean? It was the core.
The core, yeah.
You had to go to the core.
It was, like, I had the, like, heavy lifting, and now I have a foundation.
How wonderful that it's a New York Times bestseller, right? Yeah, that was— That makes it all better.
It made it— yeah, that— Who cares? I'll go to hell for a New York Times bestseller credit.
As the devil's making you vacuum over and over again.
It's fine.
I love the heat.
I love the heat.
Dry heat. It's fine. It's fine. I'm from Utah. This is no big deal. What made you want to go the fiction route? Because I.
Well, I love writing, and I always dreamed that I could be a writer, but I never even dreamed that big.
You know what I mean?
Like, I mean, I watched Romantic in the Stone and wanted to be Joan Wilder, and like... have a typewriter and a cat and a box of Kleenex, you know, like I visualized and I read and I.
Was like in AP English.
And there's actually a moment in high school that a teacher found this anonymous letter I had written and it was supposed to be a secret. I had written it with a group of friends. So like there was a secret bond in me being the writer of this letter. And she stopped me in the hallway and said, you have a very strong voice as a writer. And I know you wrote that letter. I'm not going to like reveal it to anyone. It was like, a critique of the staff.
I love you.
And like, even though she was complimenting me on having a voice and being distinct as a writer, I remember being like, oh my gosh, like I'm terrified I'm going to be exposed now.
But it never left me. That moment left me.
And when I was writing Bad Mormon, it, you know, it flowed out of me once I got past the shame of it. And then I just realized it was like something I love to do and I was great at and I want to do it more.
And like, now I can because like, Fuck them. I'm here. I'm writing books.
You know what I mean? We all see it, babe. We all see it. You're a bad Mormon. Might as well rock it.
Might as well lean in.
Lean in.
And I'm loving it.
That makes me so happy. I'm so excited to read this. You're going to love it.
It's like so fun to read. And it's set in Salt Lake City.
You'll recognize all of the way these women speak to each other.
You'll recognize all of the locations. There's Housewife Easter eggs. There's Springfields.
Vans. There's medical procedures.
There's wriggling under skin. There's black veins. There's doubting your thoughts. There's postpartum Everything. It's a psychological, physical body horror thriller.
Right up my alley. Let me tell you, I put my kids to bed at 630. It sounds early.
It is.
I don't give a fuck. It's my time now.
All right.
I read my book and I masturbate.
Sorry, Trev. This book only has one sex scene, but she does dab perfume on her thighs, which, you know, is a.
Who doesn't? Fingers to the world. Taste. We're good.
Spritz.
I know the drill, Heather. I'm not a bad Mormon. I'm just bad altogether, right? That's why I love it. So good.
I want to talk about this season because I have talked about this already. I am a, were you a Bravo fan before you were on the show?
Yeah.
Okay.
Same.
I have to say that first episode of Salt Lake season seven, and I've watched a lot of fucking reality TV was one of the greatest first episodes I have ever seen of a reality TV show in my life.
It was, like, the.
Way they edited, the music choices, you girls together, the storylines, everything was working. And I just want to say congratulations because that is not easy.
Thank you.
And, I mean, it was just perfection. I was sobbing. My mom was sobbing.
I sobbed.
How could you not?
I was sobbing, yeah.
What was the season like filming?
Well, you know, at first we weren't sure we were going to have a season, you know, because everything with Mary and Robert Jr. happened right the night or cameras were up. I mean, cameras had actually been up, but like it was right.
In the thick of it. So it just, it flipped the script.
You know, we had left season six, totally contentious, at each other's throats, very divided, more divided than we'd been. And we kind of all came in with like agendas, you know, like, you know how you, everyone's kind of positioning, you talk to your friends and the cameras are coming up.
Of course, you have your production meeting.
The lines were very, getting very drawn and, And then this tragedy just kind of flipped the script immediately and forced us all to like, you know, just drop it, you know, and kind of get over it and like be together for Mary to support Mary. And it was much easier than I think any of us expected it to be. And that was kind of a magical thing for me to like realize like, holy cow, what we thought we were about to die on a hill for, a three hours ago is like so petty and dumb because look how much love there is. Look how much camaraderie, look how much we're able to like see through it all to, you know, focus on what's important.
So it's a weird way.
To start out a contentious reality house five show, you know, like with so much love.
And perspective on what's really important. I, yes.
I mean, it does something like that. It does shed perspective. And then I sometimes have these moments where, I remember it was, I think, season seven of Vanderpump Rules. I had lost my dad three weeks before we went in to shoot and I just didn't give a fuck. And you could tell. And I was at everyone's throats because I was like, I don't, I just didn't care. Right?
So my question is like, after something so devastating and like losing a dad, I feel like god just put that in us to deal with that type of loss because it's the circle of life yeah dealing with a child um passing i just don't think we have that in us yeah it.
It's yeah it's nothing it's it's like we don't yeah we don't know where what resources to pull from not at all like that yeah So with that being at the start of the season and still knowing like we have a show that we have to film, which still to this day is like, that's a hard pill to swallow where you're like, no life stops now.
Right.
No one should be laughing. Right. Why is this person having a good day?
No one should be drinking. No one should be getting glam.
Right.
You know, we should be, this is, we're grieving.
Yeah. So how did, how were you guys able to move on and make a TV show with something like that happening so early on?
I mean, all grace is to Mary.
Really?
It was Mary.
You know, we all had to follow Mary's lead. We all wanted to follow Mary's lead. And the first thing that Mary said was, you know, the show, the show must go on. I want the show. I need the show. I want the distraction. And I want to process this. I don't think she said the word process. I don't want to paraphrase. I don't want to speak for Mary, but we followed her lead. And she said, camera's up.
Let's do this. She gave us permission. And then she was pretty strong in leading like, She didn't want like the forearm squeezes. She didn't want the sad eyes. She didn't want the pats on the back. She was just like, she wanted to feel normal and like for us to act normal.
So that gave us permission.
Yeah.
And luckily for Housewives fans, normal for us is very not normal. You know, like she gave us permission.
To be ourselves and we followed her lead. And I think that's what saved the season. And I mean, we, once that ripcord was pulled, you know, it was.
Off to the races.
Oh, I truly cannot even imagine.
And what's wild is, like, that being the first episode, and what are we on, four now?
Yeah.
It's so fucking good. You guys are giving me life. You have revived my love. Like, I rock with housewives through the good, the bad, the ugly, not-so-great seasons.
Like, I'm here, man.
Thank you.
You're wild. I got it.
But you guys have, like, I think revived a lot of people because you're just so authentic. And to watch these storylines play out, You know, it's all we want is to be a fly on the wall in your guys' lives.
And, I mean, I saw— what was it?
A couple days ago, Justin and— Yeah.
That is so— I.
Found out about it live on Radio Andy.
Well, by the way, I saw you find out about it live. You looked fucking shocked.
I was shocked because I— you know, it's so hard to walk that line of public, personal, you know, like, you know— persona.
I don't even know if that's the word.
But just to walk the line of what is sacred and what is happening right now. And I really think I believed that it was just a chapter of separation for them, very much like nesting and all of these things to just make it like, this is a time where Whitney, of course, needs her independence and wants to do these things, but that it was just a stretching of the elastic band, not filing for divorce. So the fact that she filed shocked me.
And obviously you've spoken to her.
Yes.
Yeah.
And texted her. And I don't think she wanted the news to come out like that. And she, you know, she's just like, you, I mean, anyone who's been through a divorce.
You're in a blender. You don't know what is up, what is down. You're just you're just existing.
And like, I just remember being in a tumult of like, you know, confusion and fear.
Yeah.
I got to do it privately and I got to lie to whoever I wanted to. Things are great. Things are great.
Things are great because I could process it privately, you know, and like work through the mess of it all. I cannot imagine doing it publicly, you know, and having everyone weigh in on her marriage, everyone, everyone weigh in on.
The divorce, the separation. And then I just feel for her. Yeah.
And then the weird world that we live in is like the moments that we want private are the moments where it's like, well, we got to pick cameras up.
Yeah.
You know, and that adds such an extra layer, as you said. And I remember going through my, we were never married, but I guess separating of our family and being so just in my own world and then seeing like a paparazzi photo of And I knew exactly the conversation that I was having on the phone. And it just felt like I was being watched and I didn't, I couldn't afford to be watched. Right.
And you, like you said, you feel like you're in a blender.
Yeah.
It's a, it's a weird world to be in.
Yeah.
And I, I mean, I, it, my divorce almost destroyed me. I mean, it did in a lot of ways, but I can't imagine if I had to do it public and then like also promote a show, you know, and present an award, you know, it's just.
Like, like saying the show must go on, which is very much like, I'm in the fetal position.
My family is breaking up because her kids are relatively young still.
16 and 13.
Yeah.
Bobby and Brooks.
I mean, I feel like everyone's relationships are more besides yours.
Yeah.
I mean, God bless Tripp. He's keeping love alive.
Which you fucking, you deserve.
But yeah, you know, there go, I mean, that's, we double dated with, I mean, Sean and Angie were going to be our couple of friends. We double dated with Whitney and Justin. And I'm just like, babe, I have no one for, I mean, we'll get Mary and Robert Sr.
Out.
And if Lisa and John will have us, but I don't know, you know.
I don't know.
Seth and Meredith, I can count on. Seth's always a good time. Yes.
He seems like a really good time.
I'm not worried about that.
And he, um, the final episode there's, I think there's been teasers of it, but it's like a prom and he did like the four husbands pick where like they're in like a train, like posing.
He was like all the bros in their Texas. It was so, So that's like a stamp of approval. I love it. If you pose for a group pic with the husbands.
Oh, you're in. How do you feel about that? Nervous, right?
Little nervous. Tripp's nervous.
You jumping on the motorcycle with your helmet that says your name?
You made that for me. Isn't that awesome?
I loved it.
I know.
It was like my fairy tale moment. I never thought I'd have one. And I get to have that forever now.
Never screw up.
We will all hunt you down, by the way. The Bravo universe runs really deep and thick. You won't even have time to stop off to get gas.
Yeah.
You know? I love it. I love that you're so happy. I'm loving the season. You guys made it cool to be from Salt Lake.
Between Housewives and then the Mormon show on Hulu, people are like, you're from Utah?
How do you get the good hair?
I'm like.
Does it look like I would even know that?
You have to be a Mormon, I guess. That's what you get from being a Mormon. You get good hair.
Good hair and teeth, they say.
Good hair and teeth. I love it. Thank you so much for being on Untraditionally Lala. You're incredible.
You guys, thank you for listening to another episode of Untraditionally Lala, the bonus episode.
I will catch you guys next week.
Bye.
